Why does /his/ shit on marxism/socialism/communism so much?

What are you talking about? Most of /his/ is communist because intellectuals always think they are going to be the nomenklatura in a communist state.

>>1662282
Cooperatives and employee owned enterprises exist in capitalism (Publix etc), you don't need to fuck up the entire planet to achieve it.

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For me it's just it's constant failures that make me not like it.

>it'll work this time guys! I promise! Forget the other dozen times it's been tried!

I'd rather not shit up my country or have anyone else do it to theirs to "see if it works this time".

>>1662287
this, plus in Germany and Sweden, it is required that the unions own part of the companies they work for and have a seat on the board.

Communism/Socialism/Marxism.

Is just a means to change the ruling elites.

>>1662293
Read a bit of Marx. The reason why the revolutions in China and Russia failed is because the material conditions did not call for Socialism in either of those places. You need advanced capitalism before you can have socialism. Only now is it possible to have socialism.

Every socialist movement up to this point has tried to do too much too early.

>>1662284
>Most of /his/ is communist
when will this meme end?

>>1662282
because there is something called brainwash propaganda.

>>1662284
No it's not

WE HAVE THAT IT'S CALLED A SELF-OWNED BUSINESS. YOU DON'T GET TO SIGN TO WORK FOR SOMEONE ELSE AND THEN RANDOMLY DEMAND TO BE THE CEO AND A SHAREHOLDER.

>>1662282
>workers owning the means of production
>no property rights

>>1662284
Most of /his/ is center right to right, it's just that the few Marxshits we have won't shut up.

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>>1662282
Because it doesn't fucking work you retarded hipster faggot

>>1662312
>You need advanced capitalism before you can have socialism
Then tell every single marxist ever to stop bitching about capitalism

>>1662298
Who were the elites in Revolutionary Catalonia?

>>1662312
Yeah why did industrial, capitalist East Germany fail too? How about Czechoslovakia? Fuck off with your memes cuckboy.

>>1662345
corpses

>>1662349
Oh, Czechoslovakia and East Germany were as advanced as we are today? Go ahead and cite your source for that, I'll wait.

>>1662340
If anything is retarded, that is your image. Socialism isn't about wanting people to be middle class. Socialists divide people into those who own the means of production and those who sell their workforce.

>>1662349
Let me also add on: There was worker's self management in either of those places?

See, not only did the USSR not realize that the time was not right for socialism, they forced their specific strain of "socialism" on countries regardless of their development and material conditions.

Read up on "uneven and combined development."

>>1662340
problem with marxism is once you issue you it in you have nowhere to go
your economies of scale is maxed
thats what i got from the right picture anyway
turns out im a totalitarian according to the nolan chart in my political philosophy via http://www.polquiz.com/ anyway

im austrian anarkist its just that im totalitarian about it
respect reason rationale and decision peacefully or ill be violent too yooooo!!!

>>1662312
Read a bit of Marx. The reason why the revolution in Paris failed is because the material conditions did not call for Socialism in that place. You need advanced capitalism before you can have socialism. Only now is it possible to have socialism.


t. Lenin 1917

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>>1662359
The World Economy: Historical Statistics by Angus Maddison

>>1662397
Lenin later on realized that it was not the time and implemented state capitalism I the USSR. Only now is automation reaching the point that we can begin replacing people with machines in many industries.

>>1662399
They had computers and AI in Eaat Germany and Czechoslovakia.

Thanks for that. Really.

>>1662414
>only now

maybe only in 50 years? 100? 300?

Why now? You do know they were " replacing people with machines in many industries" back in 1830s already right?
What makes you think it won't result in another failed state with some douchbag on the quantum intertubes claiming "now is the right moment" in 50 years time?

>>1662282
The problem I have with workers owning the means of production is that it implies that workers are informed enough to properly manage a business. If the workers were well informed, then sure. The problem is that a majority of the working class has less than stellar intelligence. Placing this responsibility in a single person that is trained to manage business is better.
Now if by owning the means of production you mean the workers owning stock in a company it could work, but the workers would need the prerequisite of capital to achieve this.

>>1662425
What are you on about you tremendous retard

Because few people on /his/ know what marxism/socialism/communism is.

>>1662435
Computers are at the point that central planning is viable (not necessarily ideal, however). AI is at the point that it can replace large swathes of our labor force. Not only that, but liberal democracy is proving to be too rigid to adapt to these new realities

>>1662439
>le intellectual bourgeois like myself knows better than the retarded proles

wew lad.
something something democratic commitee, something self-regulation something my version of the free market makes it work

>>1662282
>What's so bad about a mob of simple minded brutes murdering people for their property? I don't get it.
Fucking die, red.

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>>1662282
>What's so bad about workers owning the means of production?
nothing, in fact it is compatible with capitalism, the problem is trying to impose it on everyone and ignoring even the most justifiable property rights

>>1662312
If Communism NEEDS capitalism so it can happen, then why the fuck all those wannabe Guevaras and greasy fuckers keep bashing capitalism like it's the fucking Devil? Jesus Christ just shut up then and enjoy the ride until we get to post-scarcity.

>>1662457
Empty demagogy with no hard evidence.

Sure, we're expanding automatisation, AI complexity and productivity and resource extraction efficiency at an exponential rate, but I still don't see the magic line that we've crossed to make communism realistic.
We still even have nation states, like, how would you even go beyond that without a few nukes, revolutions turned authoritarian, going back to square 1 style events?

>>1662464
>>What's so bad about a selected group of psychopatic minded brutes murdering people for their property? I don't get it.
Fucking die, bourgeois.

>>1662475
It's actually pretty ironic that communist revolutions basically don't happen in developed, capitalist nations, they only happen in agricultural, peasant shitholes like Russia, China, Cambodia or Cuba.

So pretty much the exact opposite of what Marx predicted

>>1662282
Because /his/ is about history

And history has proven that marxism/socialism/communism is shit

>>1662483
>except, they also happened in large parts of France, Italy and Germany, usually the more industrialised parts at that

>>1662478
You're right, I agree, it's not time for communism, it's time for socialism. It's not a line, it's more of a gradient, and we're now on the side of it where success is more likely than failure.

>>1662475
Because the contradictions of capitalism are beginning to take a toll on the people who live under it. Capitalism cannot facilitate the transition to communism, the market is far too inefficient and short sighted for post-scarcity.

>>1662491
>Germany

Are you talking about the kike plot of 1919? Because that failed spectacularly.

>>1662491
And also failed miserably.

>>1662282
The problem I have with all this is the following: if workers want to own the means of production why don't they start their own business where all employees are shareholders? Why must they seek to take control of a different company where a different system is in place? Is it because they want access to the stockpiles of assets that others had to work for? The whole point of the employee/employer relationship is that employees get paid their wages with no further risk attached to them.

>>1662493
>Because the contradictions of capitalism are beginning to take a toll on the people who live under it.
And what about the toll on the people that lived under Communism, or whatever was using its name?

>>1662500
>>1662503
failed is not a subset of " basically don't happen"

>>1662463
>Implying the average prole isn't retarded
Epic

>>1662513
Bunch of Jews chimping out does not a revolution make.

>>1662463
I want you Anglos to die already.

>>1662514
Literally no, by definition.

>>1662481
>I'm a stupid fifteen year old Marxist and I think switching some words around in my opponents post is the most epic way to destroy their argument with irony and shit.

See in order for your argument to make sense the "bourgeoisie" would have to be trying to kill me to steal my stuff. Since they aren't, your little epic response doesn't work.
Reds are the ones that want to eliminate private property, not the bourgeois.

>>1662508
Well, those nations claiming to be communist were essentially a capitalists' dream because they were basically corporations running states. They industrialized extremely fast, I'm sure the death toll of capitalist industrialization is significantly higher but more spread out.

They did what took 150 years in Europe in decades. Also, they walked and talked like capitalist societies. They were capitalist.

>>1662540
You could make your same argument against liberals in the French Revolution. Why do they get a pass?

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It's Hegelian nonsense.

>>1662549
They don't. French Revolution was a mistake.

>>1662527
something something global zionist conspiracy amirite lad

friendly warning, don't read the books on the topics, bunch of jewish propaganda, all you need is AOL styled web sites and a glance at wikipedia. An infograph or two might help

>>1662463
>>1662570
>something something

Fuck off Anglo swine.

>>1662282
>What's so bad about workers owning the means of production?
because i hate everyone around me

>>1662574
But I'm not even english you massive projectionist.

>>1662576
Have you SEEN the workers?

>>1662590
Then stop talking like a gigantic poof.

>>1662549
I don't know his anyone can look at the French revolution and honestly see it as anything other than an abomination.

>Haha! Let's tie priests and nuns together naked and drown them, we can call it a Republican marriage!
Utter scum and proto Reds.

>>1662594
They're revolting!

>>1662600
B-b-but muh rights

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>>1662549
You're sorely mistaken if you think people on this board love the French revolution.

>>1662595
bit rude there lad

there's nothing wrong with poofting if I'm perfectly honest

>>1662606
You said it, they stink on ice!

>>1662435
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Pq-S557XQU

I know it's le ebin reddit man, but he's right. We're approaching an industrial revolution that will literally make us obsolete.

>>1662651
>approaching
>now

see, these are the terms that are being confused here

>>1662665
Why is preparing for the future a bad thing?

>>1662282

because they, like you don't get it.

they read a 19th century philosopher without knowing anything about 19th century philosophy, history, politics, social structure, economy, and they don't get it.

but unlike you, that tries to understand, it is easier to shit everywhere pretending he was just the begin of a economical problem (see where you come from, capitalism's children?).
How do you close your eyes from the struggle in understanding himself as a thinker as involved in the historical process and siding with the voiceless forces to continue progress on the direction he recognized?
How can't you see how innovative was his prospective in openly doubting the coscence of the culture supporting itself?

There sure are may critiques that we can do to marx, but not these bullshit you are coming up with.
I have never read any comment about his justificationism for instance.

To those who say that he is just a bad copy of Hegel, probabily they should read with their heads and not with their feet.

>>1662282 thank you for doubting memes though, the problem is not simply owning the means of production, but thinking history as a class struggle, start from that problem and read.

>>1662399
>GDP is a measurement of how advanced a society is

>>1662880
He's not a bad copy of Hegel, he's a good copy of Hegel, who was bad.

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>>1662483
do you even know what the international was? that european revolutions were ended in blood? do you even know who rosa luxenburg was? do you even know how big were getting the sindacates and the wars inside industrial countries? do you know how ENORMOUS was the debate in Russia on wether to force marx words and start the revolution? do you even know how fascisms came to be popular?

of course not
so please shut the fuck up

PS this is Bava Beccaris cannoning protesters in Milan, 1898.
The king gave him a medal for this

I don't like being poor and being placed on the same level as lazy poor cunts. Fuck Marx and his shitty political ideology based on feels.

Because, just like democracy and every other organized system, when the masses rule in theory, the few rule in fact.

The hate is mostly because major proponents of of those ideologies tend to be childish morons, and there are a greater number of failed states to poke fun at.

>>1662282
It's all frightened classcucks

>>1662284
This lmfao

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>>1662541
>they were basically corporations running states

There's no way you're actually this retarded, right? There were no corporations, only a nomenklatura that called all the shots and exploited the people in the name of not exploiting them. What the fuck is this, "corporations?" In the USSR? Are you mad?

They most certainly did not "do what took 150 years in Europe in decades;" if one looks at the GDP growth of the Russian Empire, one sees the revolution and introduction of extreme state controls to destroy the economy, and then the normal growth pattern is returned to once reforms were undertaken to scale back the fuckery that Lenin started out with.

You Marxists are always doing mental backflips to justify your horseshit.

>>1662282
>282
Cause it´s the byproduct of all the propaganda from and after the cold war, both USA USSR were in the wrong BTW , especially when the societies run by fossil fuels fall apart even more when these get depleted, plus the global warming it caused
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b6CPsGanO_U

Name a single successful communist state

>>1663699
Uh...there was...uhm...I...

C-C-COMMUNISM H-HAS NEVER B-B-BEEN TRIED

>>1662282
Because it led to the deaths of over 100 million people in the 20th Century.

>>1662338
Not it's not. Most of /his/ is center left to left anarchist. The only time it gets 'right' is when /pol/ shows up to be humiliated yet again.

>>1663727
Name a single successful capitalist state.

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>>1662282
Because /his/ is packed with high school libertarians who haven't read Marx. Why do you think there's at least 5 helicopter jokes in any thread that tries to discuss Marx?

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>>1663699
>communist
>state

>>1663731
Good meme kid, that was mostly state capitalism (:

>>1662284
Go back to your cryogenic capsule

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>>1662989
>it hurts my feels that I'm in a similar economic position as people I don't like
>clearly it's Marxism that's fixated on feels

>>1662282
Political philosophy is literally nonsense.

The lowest common denominator of humanity are intelligent sociopaths who don't care about anything other than gaining power.

Therefore, there is NO SYSTEM that won't become corrupt within a few years.

The only sane approach to politics is to continuously shrink and break up power structures (political and economic) to keep the sociopaths on their toes.

>>1662282
Because this board is filled with upper class scum

>>1662342
>tell every single child to stop saying "are we there yet?" on a journey

>>1662894
I'll bite. How would you measure the advancement of society, and based on your system, at what point would a society be advanced enough to warrant a transition from capitalism to socialism?

>>1663804
I'm /pol/, humiliate me.

>>1662282
Fuck off to /pol/

>>1663804
False, there was a strawpoll a while back that showed communists/socialists/anarchists are just a very loud and fucking annoying minority

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>>1662284

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>collectivism
>2016

>>1662287
>>1662293
>>1662298
>>1662340
>>1662338
>>1662324
>>1662315
>>1662349
>>1662439
>>1662464
>>1662470
>>1662475
>>1662486
>>1662540
>>1663727
>>1664635
>>1664637
>>1664644
>>1664648
holy shit this board is spooked, bunch of fucking classcucks

i'm going back to leftypol where we have true intellectual discussions. Get gulag'd classcucks.

Anonymous ## Mod 2016-09-08 00:06:28 Post No.1664817
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