How can someone who considers themselves an ethical person

>>1649133
if an animal can kill another animal why can't we?
do you hate dogs too?

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>>1649133
Just read what bearded youtube man has to say about it:
http://www.lloydianaspects.co.uk/opinion/veggie.html

>>1649133
If got didn't want us to meat eat, we wouldn't be able to digest it

>>1649152
If god didn't want us to sin, we wouldn't be able to.

God gave us dominion over the animals of the world. They are ours to eat.

>>1649145
Because we are moral agents, animals are not, and our sense of morality isn't based on what animals do.

>>1649158
If God didn't want us to kill blacks, he wouldn't let us get away with it

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All "ethical/moral" people are hypocritical. Even vegans have to rely on some level on the exploitation of animals. Moralisms are stupid and can never be 100% absolute.

If you have the might to do something you dont need any other justification.

>>1649133

I don't eat meat. However, it might be justifiable for example in case of some diseases. Cancer patients undergoing chemo are advised to eat meat for example. Other than that, I believe Tolstoy was right.

However, there's also the question of animal breeds or even species that were bred and live solely in domesticated forms as food forms. People switching away from eating form would deprive them from the sense to exist and basically condemn them to extinction.

Plants are also alive.
They have cells, they grow, they eat in their own sense, they drink from their roots, and they provide oxygen for us to breath which wouldn't that make eating them even worse.
Why is it ethical to murder plants for food?
We are made of cells, we grow, we eat, we drink.
Its called nature.

How can someone who finds it moral to eat meat find it inmoral to fuck animals?

>>1649213
I ask myself that every day

>>1649209
They're not conscious.

>>1649226
How do you know that?

>>1649213
Because one is food and the other is rape. We basically own our children like slaves but we can't fuck them

>>1649233
We have no reason to think they're conscious.

>>1649237
What about mechanical impregnation?

>>1649226
[citation needed]

>>1649242
And we have no reason to believe animals have a problem with slaughter.

>>1649133

Jokes on you! I'm not ethical.

>>1649237
Also, we aren't allowed to kill and eat our children.

>>1649255
Animals don't want to die.

>>1649266
How do you know that?

>>1649266
Then why do they kill eachother?

>>1649266
They'll die anyway, who cares.

our teeth did evolve to be flat, which isn't that suitable for eating flesh, that's why we have to cook it.
I'm not a vegeterian/vegan myself but fruit and vegies are something I can eat all the time while meat has to be prepared and seasoned and shit to taste good.

>>1649133
Because the reasons for not doing it either apply to industrial farming only, or turn into vague philosophical masturbation.
And some of these arguments, when followed to their logical endpoint, derive that it's actually MORE humane to farm animals on an industrial scale.
https://aeon.co/essays/what-makes-a-better-world-lab-grown-meat-or-humane-farming

>>1649279
>meat has to be prepared and seasoned and shit to taste good.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steak_tartare

Dumbass.

>>1649279
>while meat has to be prepared and seasoned and shit to taste good
>Nu-males

>>1649268
Modern biology and neuroscience allow us to make the claim for nearly all mammals and birds, as much as we could make the argument for other humans.

>>1649271
Because not wanting to die and wanting to kill are separate emotions?

>>1649276
So will humans. Murder is still unethical.

>>1649168
bullshit. morality is an evolutionary feature for social animals such as ourselves. we just have the most complex ideas about morality. and that complex morality that most people have developed doesn't include a prohibition on eating animals. in order for us to live we must kill some living thing. why do animals have more right to life than plants and fungi?

>>1649133
There is nothing wrong with the death of non-sapient individuals, prove me wrong.

>>1649296
>Murder is still unethical.
No it's not.

Inb4 muh fee fees.

>>1649296
>kill others
>whine about getting slaughtered

>>1649296
>Because I say so
What a well thought out response

>>1649296
Animals are basically niggers. They don't know what they want.

>>1649311
Animals are not moral agents and our morality isn't based on they do, so that is irrelevant.

>>1649222
Trudau used to

>>1649314
Which quotee are you?

>>1649333
all of them

>>1649291
>Steak tartare is a meat dish made from finely chopped or minced raw beef[1][2] or horsemeat.[3] It is often served with onions, capers and seasonings (the latter typically incorporating fresh ground pepper and Worcestershire sauce), sometimes with a raw egg yolk, and often on rye bread.

Did you even read the article before you linked it, dumbass?

>>1649293
the very fact that you have to cook it is preparation, if eating raw meat is your think then go for it bud, but it might get painful

>>1649328
You know this becauase...?

>>1649296
let's get this straight on why murder is "wrong". humans are part of our society, animals are not in most cases. the cow is only part of our society for milk and meat. my dog however I have an emotional bond with and you killing him will make me pissed. you kill the dentist my teeth will rot. I give as little of a shit about the cow's life as I do the tribes still in the Amazon

Most of the animals humans eat are herbivores, so the "animals eat animals" argument is stupid on multiple levels.

>>1649133
It can be justified I'd there is no suffering, that's why I am a major proponent of legitimized livestock.
You can do it to the bread box chickens pre consciousness and they essential are a meat/fern the rest of their "life".
You can't say that this is wrong because the only real argument a fair eating meat is the suffering, as depriving animals of existence would happen if we phase out meat eating entirely.
The world can't support free livestock and they can't support themselves without human intervention.
If mere consciousness is really of value so much that removing their consciousness is morally wrong they we ought to eat meat so that livestock can continue to exist and achieve consciousness.

>>1649382
What year did you drop out of school?

>>1649392
well, pretty much all farm animals are herbivores mate.

>>1649382
I fed my chickens chicken when I had them. They had no issue with this so why should you? You're getting offended on behalf of a demographic that doesn't care. Keep your white liberal savior complex out of this.

>>1649268
Are you retarded ?

>>1649408
Do you feed your children human meat?

>>1649408
>basing your morals on those of a chicken
mate, are you literally retarded?

we have evolved beyond the point of acting like fucking chickens, we operate on reason they operate on instinct. If someone were to feed your dead mom to you would you fucking eat it?

>>1649403
>pretty much all
>pig
>fish
>dog (for you poor urban Asians)
modern chickens that are not exclusively grain fed also eat pellets that contain animal by product.
Thanks for the lesson farmer John

>>1649344
>Did you even read the article before you linked it, dumbass?
It's raw meat faggot. I ate it raw without anything else and surprise - it was still good. Doesn't mean I would do it again. But neither would I eat raw potato(I would get sick after it - they're plain toxic) or onion(because seriously, I have better things to do than eat raw onion ffs).

Mutton is shit when it's not cooked and spiced well and I'd rather cook square-chopped carrots and serve it with steak rather than eating carrots raw. That's the charm of cuisine. You take 10 things and make one meal out of it.

If you seriously can't eat that soup because there was piece of meat in it then you are plain mentally ill or want to find completely offstream new hip ways of metaphorical self-flaggelation. Kill yourself you piece of shit.

>>1649427
No it causes Neuro degenerative diseases. Do you feed you hemp patch with plant matter compost?

>>1649427
Thy wouldn't like that.

>>1649431
Not all chickens are like that m8. Stop generalizing. It's specist

>>1649434
Free range chickens often eat worms as well.

>>1649427
>>1649431
>Humans = Livestock
This is where the vegetarian argument completely breaks down. There is no way to compare the two as somehow equal in any sense. This is why nobody likes vegans and most think of them as pretentious hypocritical pseudo-intellectuals

>>1649168
>and our sense of morality isn't based on what animals do.

That's wrong.

Morality most certainly has a socio-evolutuonary link hence the relativism between different cultures in different times and places thorughout history. What's 'moral' and just a thousand years ago would not hold up now.

>>1649434
>giving two examples
>one of them being pigs that can't hunt but eat meat because we feed it too them
just because some animals can eat meat that doesn't mean they are natural omnivores/carnivores

We spent 10000 years breeding those motherfuckers to be meat... there are no Cows or Pigs in nature. It would be a disservice to human technology and innovation if I didn't. As for hunting, hundreds of thousands of years of Hominid hunting leading up to the newest hunting rifle, to not do that you're insulting the greatest example in technological progression

>>1649453
dude.. in >>1649431 I am literally arguing against 'le humans = livestock'
are you blind or stupid?

>>1649461
You may be surprised but bears rarely hunt as well. Wild Pigs/Hogs eat worms, lizards, small rodents and carrion if they can find them.

>>1649484
>wild pigs/hogs
>we're talking about farm animals

>>1649455
Why we have a sense of morality and how we define what it means to be moral independent of one another. Our morality is not purely emotional or instinctual. Through reason and knowledge we refine our ideas of "good" and "bad" actions.

>>1649493
Anon you are literally retarded or trolling.

Pigs eat meat when you feed them meat and eat meat when they're on the wild. They digest it without problems as well.

Where do you see the sign that "they're totally not omnivores"?

I've been hypocritically arguing for veganism the whole time, even though I am not one but I agree with some of the shit they have to say.
But one thing I don't get about their plan is, what the fuck do we do with all the farm animals when we stop having use from them?

>>1649517
>But one thing I don't get about their plan is, what the fuck do we do with all the farm animals when we stop having use from them?
Peace and love brother!!!! MAKE LOVE NOT WAR>>>

FREE ALL ANIMALS

FREE WEED FOR ALL

FUCK THE FUTURE

and other boomer chants

>>1649510
I don't know why I went on about farm animals desu when it should have all ended at the 'don't base your morals on those of animals u shitfuck' my bad sry.

but still most of the animals we eat the most are herbivores, not that it's even relevant to anything xdD

>>1649529
I get what you're getting at, but don't strawman this hard pls, I know it's 4chan but still

Seeing you guy's terrible arguments is making me think I should be a vegan.

>>1649517
Eat them. Those animals will go extinct.

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>>1649133

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>>1649133
I could ask the same of someone who doesent eat meat. I enjoy eating meat is the only justification i need to eat it. If eating animals makes you feel bad then its your right to choose not to eat it since it serves your own self intrest. I dont feel bad about it so i see no reason not to eat meat. A vegan is being honest with his emotions and so am i. Though i fail the point of trying to make eating meat spooky. Morality is a spook so please dont contaminate my food with them.

>>1649443
>finely chopped or minced raw beef
that means it is prepared in some way you cretin, and do you know why it is finely chopped or minced? Because you would brake your fucking teeth if it weren't.

>>1649573

Is not killing other humans to eat them also a spook?

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le sbook jajajaj

>>1649573
>I enjoy eating meat is the only justification i need to eat it

Would it be the only justification if someone wanted to eat you?

>>1649535
You are right they were herbivores, not that that matters because in the wild they can't survive, aside from pigs which go feral and eat meat. Thanks for your input though mr. urban centre

>>1649585
If you make it some holy rule sure. If eating humans makes you feel bad then there isnt much reason to do so unless youre starving to death or something.

>>1649226
Can I eat a animal that is unconscious then?

>>1649627
Read this
>>1649390

Meat is tasty and I don't like most vegetables. So I eat meat.

Summary of the meat eater argument ITT:

>Some animals hunt other animals for food, therefore it is fine for a human to kill all animals for food, even animals that don't hunt for food.

>We hold animals to the moral standards we hold adult humans to.

Maybe you guys should just admit you find meat tasty and don't care enough about the lives of the animals being taken. At least it wouldn't be a stupid argument.

>>1649692
see
>>1649573

>>1649703
There are people out there who enjoy killing other humans. Is that a valid justification for them to do it?

>>1649716
Sure. Though people who dont want to get killed are equally valid to stopping him.

>>1649716
Those people are called niggers and they are in jail. What does this have to do with eating meat for enjoyment? That's a false equivalency

Our systems are made to digest animal protein. Also, we developped better brains when it was introduced into our diet, even more so when we started cooking it.
Humans are omnivores plain and simple. If we really were true vegetarians then we'd all get acute renal failure from the proteins in our diet which isn't the case. Also our intestines aren't made for long term fermentation like a herbivores.
>b-but you can have a complete diet without meat!
I don't think it counts as complete if you have to fucking supplement it.
Also fuck tofu.

>>1649749
"Why" we evolved particular characteristics doesn't determine the ethical use of those characteristics. The claim is not that we are "natural" vegetarians, but that it is not right for us to kill other animals (based on some criteria) for food. Evolution has contributed to this belief for many people. Evolution showed us that there is not a fundamental difference between humans and "animals"--that we are animals. It showed us that the structures associated with thinking and a desire to live, be happy, and not be in pain came about well before homo sapiens came to be.

>>1649824
Instead of hunting them and tearing them apart alive, we breed them in specific places and euthanise them quickly and humanely. We just got better at it.
And I'm speaking about developped countries not ass-backward countries like china and shit with their appaling and non-existant animal cruelty laws.

>>1649866
Just because it is more ethical than before doesn't mean it's still ethical. The issue is the very idea of taking the life of sufficiently self-aware creatures for food, unnecessarily.

>>1649900
You're eating my food's food for your own pleasure fuck you

As a meat-eater, I'd really like to see a defense of it here that didn't resort to the appeal to nature fallacy.

A human can be healthy without eating corn or sweet peas. Must be selfish hedonism that we eat those items.

>>1649584
And vegetables aren't somehow? A vast majority of them had to be 'prepared' someway and if cutting them up is too much work then why don't you eschew knives and forks you colossal lazy faggot.

Isn't capsaicin a neurotoxin because pepper plants don't want their seeds to be eaten?

Nothing wants to be eaten, but everything will be in one way or another. It's all based on how much you value the life of the thing being eaten.

It's easier to value animals because they have faces, but plants do a lot to make sure their seeds and the like don't get eaten, the same way wild birds try to protect their eggs.

tl;dr, in this world it's eat AND be eaten. What are you willing to eat until the day you are eaten?

>>1649182
Of course you do, unless you have the might to do it and prevent the negative repercussions of doing it. Then you just have to be able to make yourself okay with it.

>>1649595
I would want it to not be, but if they were able to do it it would be

>>1649279
just pop your tendies in the microwave pham

>>1649133
Because produce is even less ethically sound. At least the animals that die in slaughterhouses don't go to waste.

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>>1649133
Who cares? Just give me my fucking animal burger, you dumb philosophy major.

>>1649133
#WhiteProblems

>>1649279
Humans can eat raw meat, though. We generally don't in the modern world because it's a bit more risky, but your chance of getting sick off raw meat isn't so high that it will render a diet of regular raw meat impossible. It takes a bit more effort to chew, sure, but so do most raw plant parts.

Cooking is used because it makes consuming food more efficent, not because consuming food without cooking is impossible. That's like saying humans can't walk for more than a couple miles because most people will just opt for using a car instead. Using a car is more efficient and easier, but it doesn't mean walking that distance is literally impossible.

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>>1649168
>humans
>moral
this Rousseau-ass motherfucker

>>1649226
Bullshit, they respond to injury the same way that animals respond to pain..

Hell some species will scream for help, not via sound but by smell, when attack by insects, warning other plants and alerting carnivorous insects that its in distress.

>>1649382
Pigs will eat almost anything including meat Chickens eat insects and can digest meat as well, which is often useful in their diets for laying hens due to the high protein and calcium requirements of producing eggs. In fact, hens will even eat their own eggs or those of others. Sheep and cattle do not eat meat but they may accidentally consume insects while grazing. Many of the fish people commonly eat are carnivorous, including tuna, cod, salmon, and catfish.

Stop being retarded.

>>1649133
The day plants dont use dying animals or plants as nutrients is when i ll stop eating plants and animals

>>1649133
Also im gonna make a tuna sandwich not beacuse im a bad person, im making it because that tuna is sitting in a can on a shelf, no amount of me saying im a good person is bringing that tuna back so it would more of dick move to let the tuna die for nothing. Plus its delicious

Civilization itself will inevitably kill countless animals. We kill animals by destroying their habitats to provide ourselves living space and resources; we kill animals in the process of agriculture, both through the use of pesticides and incidentally through the process of harvesting; we kill animals to protect our food supplies, and prevent the spread of diseases.

If we're too truly try to minimize the killing of animals, the logical conclusion would be that we'd have to adopt some form of primitivism, be it of the anarcho variety, or just classical cynicism.

But the fact is, we're not going to do that, because we're fine with the fact everything we own and everything we consume being figuratively tainted with blood; it's just an unavoidable fact of reality. The most we can do is avoid wasteful consumption.

But the deaths of animals in our society go a lot deeper than just the consumption of meat. Animals products have an important role in countless industries, ranging from the obvious and superfluous like leather, to the less obvious and much more vital, like antibiotics.

Because I'm so much a human that I'm a human nationalist

All animals and nature exist to compete (just like a capitalist market) and failure to compete (kill each other) leads to biological stagnation

>>1649279
Humans have jagged molars, not flat herbivore ones. This suggests an omnivore diet.

>>1651052
Actually fruit evolved for the purpose of being eaten. They're tasty, plentiful, and nutritious which encourages animals to eat them and spread the seeds they contain, and they're not vital to the survival of the plant.

Of course. humans cannot survive on an all fruit diet, and many of the plant parts consumed in vegetarian and omnivorous diets are those necessary to the plant's survival, like roots (carrots, potatoes, turnips,), stems (celery, onions, garlic, leeks), or leaves (spinach, kale, cabbage, lettuce).

>>1651668
They do not have a nervous system. It is not possible for them to "feel" pain based on modern biology. Reacting in a way analogous to defense by animals is not proof of any kind of experience.

>>1651703
*tips fedora*

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>>1649279
Which of these animals has teeth most similar to a human's?
The herbivorous horse, the omnivorous raccoon, or the carnivorous cat? Note that the horse has front teeth designed for cutting and back teeth designed for chewing, the cat has front teeth designed for piercing and back teeth designed for cutting, and the raccoon has a mix of all.

>>1649356
I was going to say this! Finally a real answer!

>>1649279

We also evolved to die from pneumonia, but then we made penicillin.

However, having a good life that quickly ends does not leave the cow worse off than having no life whatsoever – it leaves the cow the ‘same off’ as having no life whatsoever, since non-existence is generic. Breeding non-sentient cows or growing flesh in vats is not any better than giving cows short but good lives if the problem with death is that it reduces the amount of good life being enjoyed.

But maybe the opposite is true. Perhaps low-suffering animal farming actually leads to a less sentient world. In ‘Least Harm: a Defence of Vegetarianism from Steven Davis’s Omnivorous Proposal’ (2003), Jason Gaverick Matheny makes this claim. He writes that, because animal farming is an inefficient use of land compared with vegan agriculture, we could boost the overall sentience in the world if we farmed only plants and used the leftover land to make room for more human or wild animal lives. The question then is how the lives of wild animals stack up against those of happy farm animals. In his paper, Matheny assumes wild animals have it pretty good, but a growing number of animal advocates think that wild animal lives tend to be rife with disease, fear and pain.

This is a point that Ben Levinstein and Anders Sandberg make in ‘The Moral Limitations of In-vitro Meat’ (2015). For those who care more about quality of life than quantity, low-suffering animal farming might be better than a vegan world with more wildlife.

>>1649133
eating meat is what got you here.
eating meat is no more or less ethical than eating plants. Plants are alive too.

>>1651992
We are also here because of rape, yet we don't rape.

>>1649168
>Because we are moral agents, animals are not, and our sense of morality isn't based on what animals do.
Why then my cat feels guilty if he steals something from the table?

I eat meat because I want to.
There is no real justification for it.

Also, animals is a social construct. There is no real difference between animals and humans. If you think murder is wrong, then killing animals is just as wrong. Animals are defined as reaching an arbitrary difference level from us, that line can be moved. None of the reasons against killing humans don't also apply to animals.

>>1649133
>Ethics
>anything but a spook

>>1649585
Eating other humans isn't any more wrong then eating animals, but it's generally not it anybody's interest due to the likeliness of ending up in jail. Also people generally have more empathy for members of their own species, and human flesh isn't that good anyway.

>>1649279
Has literally zero the do with ethics, you're in the wrong thread.

>>1649133
stirner.jpg

>>1651745
Those raccoon molars are disturbingly human.

Vegans should be sent to either mental asylums or Siberia.

>>1649133

Why is it moral to stone gays to death in muslim countries but here is inmoral?

Since when morality is objective?