How come Spain was able to keep hold of their culture even after

>>1617690
Spanish culture is p. unique in Europe. Which meant Muzzies affectd some changes.

>>1617690
>Implying Iberian culture wasn't influenced by Islamic rule

>>1617690
It didn't. Even the language changed. Also your post is retarded, countries very rarely "keep" their culture, it is always in flux.

>>1617695
>>1617700
Pardon my ignorance. What can we determined they changed?

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>>1617758
Spaniard here. There were some aspects of Islamic culture that we absorbed, obviously. Mainly architectural traits, some agricultural techniques and a certain fonetic sound.

Nonetheless, Spanish culture remained mostly untouched, even strengthened. The Catholic, fundamentally Western elements that the Visigothics had were reinforced by seven centuries of constant warfare against muslims.

>>1617690
A better question would be how is India still 80% Hindu after centuries of Muslim rule. How did they keep their pagan culture alive? Almost every other place Islam has been, it has taken over and/or removed the existing cultures and religions.

>>1617690
They didn't. This is exactly how Spain became a multilingual country with one of the most unique languages in the world (aka Basque). They're a bunch of different cultures brought together into one country. This is one of the reasons they had a civil war and still have a bunch of separatist movements.

>>1617690
>spain
>culture
>

>>1617789
Probably has to do with a small foreign ruling class having to not upset a very large native population with strong cultural and religious tradition

>>1617797
Basque as a language predates the Muslim invasion, not to mention the Basque country never fell under Islamic rule anyway

>>1617789
Well we already two examples where Islam helped influence the local country but not completely displace the culture or religion. The middle east seems to be the exception

>>1617809
Basque country literally wasn't a thing when the Moors came. And my point still stands: if not Basque then Galician or Catalan. I just mentioned Basque because of its uniqueness. Spanish monarchs, unlike in other European powers, never enforced Castillian as the only language to be used, only Franco did.

>>1617816
Basques or vascones and aquitani have inhabited the western pyrenees, Gascony, upper Ebro valley and bay of Biscay area since before Roman times

>>1617815
Even the Middle East isnt an exception.

Iran exists and localized interpretations of Islam occur. In addition everything we ever considered "Muslim" had a non-muslim origin (i.e. Greco-Roman or Persian, like those fucking domes).

Or goddamned Turkic
>Literally Middle Eastern (painted, non-geometric) art, Middle eastern weapons.

>>1617816
There were Basque kingdoms, Basque is a pre-Indoeuropean language, so it was there long before even the romans arrived in Iberia, it's one of the original European languages, that's what makes it unique. Galician and Catalan are also Romance language that descended from vulgar Latin, nothing to do with the Arabs. I don't understand what your point is.

>>1617837
They shifted their position along the centuries. Yes the people and culture have lived there since even before Indo-European migration, but the Basque country only became a distinct region with proper borders when Charlemagne created the Duchy of Vasconia/Gascony.

>>1617861
My point is that Spain never "kept a hold of their culture" because Spain is a bunch of different cultures held together, not just one who had to "keep a hold".

>>1617866
Fair enough

>>1617789
designated shitting streets

>>1617899
Better than shitting everywhere, as was custom in countries without designated shitting streets.

It did effect the culture. The difference is that the people who changed their culture got kicked out (arabized spaniards sent off to north africa) and replaced with settlers from Asturias.

>>1617690
Did they? Spain has quite a unique culture with many Islamic and Berber influences.

>>1617789
Fucking millions of em

Nah there used to be a lot more muslims but they went to pakistan

>>1617965
Depends on which region of Spain you're talking about. In some cases they came from the Pyrenees.

>>1617970
Spain is a bunch of cultures smashed together.

>>1617789
Bangladesh and Pakistan m8

>>1617690
They didn't.

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>>1617797
This guy gets it.

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>>1618012

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>>1618012
Forgot the first map.

>>1617970

Like for example? They seem pretty much western european in about everything

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>>1617970
Like what? Obviously we adopted some things (also fun fact lots of things atributed to muslims were visigothic/hisapano-roman or Persian) and some art but never the culture. In fact any part of Spain adopted more or less from our neighbors, Catalans were Occitan-lovers at first, Asturians and they descendents had an Hispano-Roman and Visigothic boner, Basques were Basques, salting cod in North America etc.

>>1618018
>>1618012
>>1618014
>tiniest region
>most annoying accent
>becomes the most prevalent
How the fuck did Castillian win so much? God I hate that language.

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>>1618012
>>1618014
>>1618018

You know that other countreis do (or did) have a plurality of languages too, dont you?

>>1618089
The Aragones crown were a lot more Trade oriented, so expanded more into France and the Med than the south, the Basques love they mountains too much and Asturias and Galicia were backstabing each other all the time. Castile,even after a fuckton of fuckups, was the only than tried to unite the rest of they brother kingdoms for conquest. Catalan was on par with Castilian (some times surpassing the importance, like in Science) in medieval times but after the discovering of America it was game over for all the other languages.

>>1618100
Of course. Which is why Italy is a non-country, basically. Italy has a way bigger north-south hate than any other European country I know.

>>1618108
When you look at that pic, it really makes you wonder why Leonese didn't win. I mean the kingdom was called "the crown of Leon" for quite some time.

>>1618117
Dynastic shenaningans. One of the ways the kings fucked the future of they kingdoms was giving big fiefs to they sons, lots of times giving entire kingdoms to each sibling. Like it happened in the El Cid, even the daughters got entire cities.

>>1618108

Leon was the most important kingdom, Castile was a county which reached great power but didnt surpass Leon till Ferdinand I inherited Castile from his Navarrese father and then invaded Leon.
He became the most powerful king in the peninsula and divided his realm among his sons, who warred agaisnt each other till Alfonso VI reunited the inheritance.
From this point onward, Castile is gonna be the leading force in Iberia, even if Castile and Leon did not definitivaly merge till the times of Ferdinand III.

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>>1618112

>>1618154
I thought they managed to genocide these in the past 2 centuries.

>>1618154
I'm pretty sure only old irrelevant farts speak these nowadays.

>>1618160
>>1618165

But the point is that they were multilingual countries before being invaded by Muslims.

>>1618179
What? France? I thought Louis XIV forced the French language long before Muslim immigration.
As for Iberia, we have no idea how those languages were before the Muslim invasion of 711.

>>1617976
what about them?

>>1618214

I know, thats my point, I am replying to the people who said that Spain is linguistically diverse cause Muslim invasion. I say that plurality of languages is or was common around Europe without the need of Muslim invasions.

>>1618245
Used to be India but became independent following conflicts and intense migration.

>>1618247
Oh, I'm the one who started talking about different languages in Spain, I didn't mean to imply that those languages only happened because of Muslim invasion. All I meant was that Spain doesn't have one single unifying culture.

>>1617690

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LDnu0giUS00

>>1617690
When muslims conquered spain In that age, they where respectful with some behaviors of the people in that land. But, when the The spaniars conquered this land. They beside the english people and friends (aka French and other shit), destroy civilizations and impose their one "behavior". This is the "unique" of that culture.

>>1620298
>destroy civilizations and impose their one "behavior"
what the fuck are you talking about you dumb bitch
spain has tens of languages, way more than fucking france or even england. the only thing they imposed was religion, and that was only much later.

>>1620298
If we see these actual times they still doing that shit and that's what we call plundering because you always look one thing and is not looking for others cultures but their materials.

>>1620308
No kid...

>>1620325
ur dumb af

>>1620332
Look that sand in your ass

But the muslims influenced spanish culture

>>1620343
That's one of the things I mean....

>>1620351
voltas a falar com essas reticências juro que te parto a boca esquerdista de merda. sai do fio caralho

>>1620365
See? They are the shit the dumb ass shit, somebody told me that nobody in Europe doesn't believe them...

>>1617690

ANDALUSIAN CULTURE WAS SPANISH CULTURE.

>>1620380
reportado. aproveita o teu ban idiota

what did visigoths look like? do we know?

>>1620385
Oh, pero si me han insultao primero tío!!!!

>>1620394
EU NÃO SOU A PORRA DO TEU TIO SEU FILHO DA PUTA

>>1620389
germanic. but they weren't many in numbers compared to the total population. even at their top.

>>1617778
This. People who spout the rape baby memes when refering to Spaniards, Greeks, etc., these people underestimate the level of cultural, religious, linguistic and even biological cohesion of a community under existential threat.

>>1620409
Interesting

>>1620409
so they were the top dogs, and the rest of the people were just native iberians?

>>1617690
Spains culture was formed during the reconquista dude c'mon

>>1620419
the rest of the people were a mix of native iberians, basques, celts, celtiberians, etc etc and a bit of romans too.

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The Spanish Reconquista was one of the most glorious military campaigns in the history of mankind. I would be proud to be a Spaniard. It's hard to believe that there are Spaniards living today who would throw their history in the trash can and let their country be invaded again. They should be hanged t b h.

>>1620419

The Church held a great power, as well as the great landlord hispanoroman families of the south. The North was never really dominated. It was under nominal control at best, as it was the case during roman times and later after the muslim invasion.

>>1617690
The ruling Muslims went full DUDE SYNCRETISM LMAO. This is a common happening for muslim polities which rule over large non-muslim populations. By allowing Visigothic and to an extent Jewish culture to thrive along with their own Islamic/Berber/Arab culture, the Al-Andalusians benefitted from the positives of said culture while also creating somewhat loyal subjects.

>>1620456
I don't understand how your Civil War and subsequent win by Franco didn't just wipe out all of these leftist scum.

>>1620475

This is somewhat true. The key being the word "somewhat".

There were ethnic tensions from time to time leading to open rebellions. Also, don't lump the Berbers with the ruling Arab caste; they were actually the first ones to rebel. And there was no 'visigoth culture'. They had long already been assimilated into the mainstream hispanorroman ethos by then.

The jews did well though, and there were a fuckton of jews back then.

>>1620486
Cock off m8,

>>1618019
Not him, but a lot of Castillian vocabulary is Arabic.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AOe4mkzBdCs

Even "God willing" in spanish is "Ojala que"

>Ojala que
>O alla
>Oh Allah

You know those famous spanish guitars played by marrones? Originally Arabic. Adding on to music, Flamenco has some North African origins however Berber =/= Islam but that culture was brought by Islamic Arabs so I'll let you decide on that one.

Also most of the vaquero equestrian culture comes from Arabic influence. Their jinete riding style was modeled after Moorish cavalry units. Furthermore, the word "jinete" comes the Berber word "zenata" and "jaquima" comes from the Arabic word "šakīma". Most of the horses were of Arabian breed anyways (this continued even into Latin America).

Iberians were also the first Europeans to adopt the use of Arabic numerals and things like chess. Their architecture is visibly influenced by the Moor. Also at one point (keywords one point) like 50% of Iberian Christians converted to Islam and Arabic culture.

>>1620456
>over 700 years to retake a peninsula, marked with Iberians backstabing each other in face of the Moors
>glorious

El ceceo de espanoles es muy feo. Espanol Latino es mejor que castillano.

>>1620571
t. boludo

>>1620534
well thats just some nouns.
some of those arab words even spread to the rest of europe.

>>1620534

The Spanish guitar and flamenco music is influenced by arab music via gipsy music, but it isn't originally arab.

Also, the entire european cavalry is influenced by the arabs, and it was Charles Martel who created the first mounted chivalry units after the battle of Tours by taking a look at the fallen arab cavalry guys and their armour, stirrups and shit after the battle.

Also, Spanish medieval architecture is not homogenic. There are plenty of different styles. Ofc in the muslim part, essentially in Andalucía, what you see is islamic style architecture until the christian conquest, but in the Christian part what you see for the most part is Romanic and Gothic arquitecture. But then there's also the mudejar and mozarabe arquitecture, so things are a little bit less dumb and simplistic than ''spanish architecture is influenced by this or that'.

The true special snowflake is the visigothic pre-romanic architecture. That really is a unique and truly homegrown style.

As someone who doesn't understand Arabic or Spanish, to me the two kinda sound similar.

Like, Arabic sounds like Spanish gibberish, and Spanish sounds like Arabic gibberish.

>>1617690
>Implying that there is a single "spanish" culture and not a bunch of diferent ones under castillian hegemony

>>1617778
>>1620411
>seven centuries of constant warfare against muslims

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reconquista#Christian_infighting

This isn't true. While the nobility may have been Christian, the Moors weren't their exclusive enemy, and the idea that it was a 700-year crusade is Church propaganda.

As for the peasants, there are countless primary sources where Muslims and Christians got along just fine. One that comes to mind is a small town where a Muslim and a Christian opened a bar together, and the Christian ran it on Fridays and the Muslim on Sundays. Or, of course, the national hero of Spain, El Cid, literally fought for the Muslims.

The rape-baby meme is only stupid because the people living in Iberia were mostly the same people living there for the last 4000 years. Sure, some Berbers came over, and some of them raped, but the effects are still pretty negligible.

>>1620621
They're nothing a like tho. Some minor meme similarities like Ojala but like 90% of the words are italic.

>>1621311

Its not the words, its the way they are spoken.

A lot of the pauses are the same, the flow, the intonations.

>>1621276
>As for the peasants, there are countless primary sources where Muslims and Christians got along just fine.

link some. would like to read them

>>1621407
http://trace.tennessee.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1692&context=utk_chanhonoproj

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Andalus#Society

Also, A Concise History of Spain by Phillips and Phillips, 2010 provides a detailed description of the Reconquista period and the extent of convivencia.

>>1621456
http://www.academia.edu/375810/Beyond_convivencia_critical_reflections_on_the_historiography_of_interfaith_relations_in_Christian_Spain

Forgot this one too. Convivencia is a lot of nonsense, but people tolerated each other fairly well. It was mostly the nobility that would chimp out, just like everywhere else.

>>1617778
Isnt muslim architecture just eastern roman architecture?

>>1617789
How is India still 99.99% south Asian after centuries of European rule?

>>1621456
>>1621462
>>1621276

Bullshit
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martyrs_of_C%C3%B3rdoba
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HTpeJFcDt2M
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=REljGDVQJDs

>>1621511
>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martyrs_of_C%C3%B3rdoba

During this time, Christians could retain their churches and property on condition of paying a tribute (jizya) for every parish, cathedral, and monastery; frequently such tribute was increased at the will of the conqueror. Christians also had to abstain from any public displays of their faith in the presence of Muslims, as such an act was considered blasphemy under Islamic law and punishable by death.

Many Christians fled to Northern Spain; others took refuge in the monasteries of Sierras. Still others converted in order to gain favor or avoid the jizya, and thus the number of Christians shrank eventually to small proportions.[2]

The executions of the martyrs caused tension not only between Muslims and Christians, but within the Christian community. Abd er-Rahmán II at first ordered the arrest and detention of the clerical leadership of the local Christian community. As the civil disobedience seemed to subside, the clergy were released in November 851. When several months later there was a new wave of protests, the emir turned again to the Christian leaders as the ones most capable of controlling the Christian community.[3] Instead of imprisoning them, he ordered them to convene a council in Córdoba to review the matter and develop some strategy for dealing with the dissidents internally. He gave the bishops a choice: Christians could stop the public dissent or face harassment, loss of jobs, and economic hardship.[4] Upon the death of Abd-er Rahman II in 852, his son and successor, Muhammad I removed all Christian officials from their palace appointments.

Reccafred, Bishop of Córdoba, urged compromise with the Muslim authorities. Eulogius, who has been venerated as a saint from the 9th century, viewed the bishop as siding with Muslim authorities against the Christians.

>>1617690
Not really.

>>1621511
>>1621529, cont.

I was not attempting to indicate that Al-Andalus was a paradise. I was simply objecting to the belief, expressed in the posts I replied to, that there was 700 years of conflict between Muslims and Christians. The Almohads and Almoravids were especially brutal, but society wouldn't even function if Christians and Muslims didn't work together. Many Christians either went North, converted, or paid the jizya.

As for the martyrs, there were less than 50 and they were the equivalent of suicide bombers today.

>>1617690
>How come Spain was able to keep hold of their culture even after all that time under the Muslims?
Because they weren't current Muslims i.e. wahhabists.

>>1621456

>A guiri book about Spain

Into the trash it goes.

>>1621554
>As for the martyrs, there were less than 50 and they were the equivalent of suicide bombers today.
>Peaceful christians killed for their faith are similar to violent muslim murderers

This is what muslims actually believe

why are spaniards so anal about their culture being influenced by the muslims?

culture inflences each other many times, it was a common occurence

>>1621748
because it just isn't that big of a thing. like visigoth specific culture. most of what really shaped spain was rome and crusade warfare.

>>1621748

>why are spaniards so anal about their culture being influenced by the muslims?
Mmm... They are not?

>>1621488
You are right, isn't!

>>1620534
>Most of the horses were of Arabian breed anyways (this continued even into Latin America).

BIG

ARAB

HORSECOCK

>>1617778
The Visigoths weren't Catholic, nor was there anything at the time their kingdoms existed that can really be described as 'fundamentally Western'.

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>>1622340

They were.

>>1622340
>The Visigoths weren't Catholic
uh yes they were

>'fundamentally Western'
yes cause the franks really had that fundamental westernism going on

>>1622408
>>1622358
not until the late 6th century

>>1620486
he did,but they eventually come back
just like chile

>>1617778
>>1622340
visigoths are a myth. they never existed

>>1621731
I should have been clearer. I meant they were a minority who wanted to become martyrs and encourage radicalism, because at the time nobody gave a fuck. But, since you brought it up...

>On 7 May 1099 the crusaders reached Jerusalem, which had been recaptured from the Seljuks by the Fatimids of Egypt only a year before. On 15 July, the crusaders were able to end the siege by breaking down sections of the walls and entering the city. Over the course of that afternoon, evening and next morning, the crusaders killed almost every inhabitant of Jerusalem. Muslims and Jews alike. Although many Muslims sought shelter atop the Temple Mount inside the Al-Aqsa Mosque, the crusaders spared few lives. According to the anonymous Gesta Francorum, in what some believe to be one of the most valuable contemporary sources of the First Crusade, "...the slaughter was so great that our men waded in blood up to their ankles...."[6] Tancred claimed the Temple quarter for himself and offered protection to some of the Muslims there, but he was unable to prevent their deaths at the hands of his fellow crusaders. According to Fulcher of Chartres: "Indeed, if you had been there you would have seen our feet coloured to our ankles with the blood of the slain. But what more shall I relate? None of them were left alive; neither women nor children were spared."[7]

>During the First Crusade and the massacre at Jerusalem, it has been reported that the Crusaders "[circled] the screaming, flame-tortured humanity singing 'Christ We Adore Thee!' with their Crusader crosses held high".[8] Muslims were indiscriminately killed, and Jews who had taken refuge in their Synagogue were killed when it was burnt down by the Crusaders.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Muslims

>>1617690
>one culture
>in any large state before the 18th and 19th centuries

The wewest of top lads to you.

>>1621276
>Muslims and Christians got along just fine
Before whites invented racism and nationalism in the 19th century, then Muslim radicalism came as a reaction, right? ;^)

>>1622939
In Al-Andalus specifically, Muslims and Christians did go about their day to day life without killing each other. I don't know why that triggers you. Where did I say anything about Islamic radicalism?

>>1621276
Going through Ottoman court records can be interesting. One record that stuck out was a public disorder charge against a Christian, a Jew, and Muslim who all got drunk at a bar and started a brawl.