Has there ever been an instance in war history where you sympathized

*had to conquer

>>1615015
>>1615015
>American colonialism resulting in genocide and the spiritual death of countless ethnic groups
>not evil

There are native Americans literally living in cardboard shacks to this very day you utter cunt.

>>1615015
>Has there ever been an instance in war history where you sympathized with both factions, and thought neither were evil but a clash was unavoidable?

Pretty much all of them, honestly.

I see the Vietnam War and First Chechen War as examples of this.

>Vietnam wants to unify and throw off the Europeans
>America wants to prevent the communists, who are in fact murderous evildoers, from gaining more ground

>Chechnya wants their own country
>Russia is afraid of the entire region doing the same thing and forming a bunch of untenable states

>>1615163
>implying the Americans and """""democratics""""" weren't also murderous evildoers

>>1615169
Not as much as the North.

The communist forces assassinated around a quarter of a million civilians during the First Indochina War, and followed it up with a Red Terror.

>>1615178
I've heard similar figures for the South during the second war, not to mention the American war crimes, bombing in Cambodia, the assassination of their own president etc.

World War One

(Except for the Austrians, fuck them)

>>1615015
Iran-Iraq War

>Iraq wants to retain the Arab province of Khuzestan and keep the area secular
>Iran wants to be free from Western imperialism

>>1615178
And actually, the only figure I can find for the first war says, at most, the Viet Minh killed only 150,000 civilians.

>>1615209
Add the French to that second part and I 100% agree.

>>1615220
>the French are more to blame than the Germans
Fuck off, /pol/

>>1615124
as opposed to...being hunter gatherers with no homes?
>most native deaths were caused by diseases not violence.

>>1615124
Cry me a fucking river. I live next to a reservation. The only poor ones are the ones who spend their rezbux on meth. So still about 50%.

>>1615015
War of 1812

>>1615338
>implying their involvement in the entire thing wasn't based 100% on butthurt
Everyone had some reason to be there. Except the French. Their only reasonw as the fact that they're insufferable fucking twats who wanted to play world police before the USA was a thing, threw hissy fits and held eternal grudges whenever things didn't go their way.

The French have been scum sucking worthless scum ever since they began to exist. Not enough of them died during the two wars.

>>1615359
They were so butthurt they got a war declared on them for refusing to leave their borders unprotected?

>>1615359
Germany declared a war against them, they're the ones to blame here.

What did you expect them to do? Leave their borders undefended and refuse a call to arms from their allies simply because it might hurt the feelings of the Germans?

Yeah, no way.

>>1615366
>>1615376

Nice "they moved 5 meters away from the border while fully mobilised and telling Germany they're fucked if they go against Russia, they obviously did everything they could to stay out of it" meme. They totally weren't fuming on 19th century revanchism.

Kill yourself, Andre.

>>1615379
>"If you attack my ally, I'll have to jump in"
>"OH MEIN GOT! FRANK AGGRESSORS! GERMANS DINDU NUTTIN"

>>1615015
WW1

>>1615398
Everyone wanted the fucking war. Literally everyone, except maybe Belgium

>>1615398
Except literally the only reason the French were allied with the Russians was because they wanted an opportunity to go at Germany's throat, and the only reason for that was butthurt over being beaten and not allowed to police over Germany anymore.

The French are subhuman, pissy scum. This is a fact illustrated by hundreads of years of European history. Trying to spin it like France were some sort of victims and didn't orchestrate the castration of germany is about as disingenuous as you can get.

>>1615418
The French didn't want the Germans to expand at their own depends, calling it "castration" is completely ridiculous.

>>1615411
Wanting a war and actively causing one are two very different things.

>>1615430
>don't you dare unify and take away my right to call myself the only relevant continental power to rule over European politics how DARE YOU REE YOU JUST DID IT I WILL SACRIFICE MILLIONS OF MY NATION'S MEN TO GET BACK AT YOU NOW REEEE

Keep making excuses. The eternal franc deserves everything bad that happens to it. All those terrorist attacks can only be divine karma.

>>1615398
>If you attack Austria, I'll have to jump in
>MON DIEU, ETERNAL TEUTON STRIKES AGAIN

this is how stupid you sound

>>1615359
>t. eternal kraut

>>1615341
Whew, that makes it all OK then. :)

>>1615215
I actually got severe diarrhea right after making that post, on account of running out of money and living on microwavable taquitos for a couple days.

I got the quarter million number from Stanley Karnow's History of Vietnam.

>>1615526
Ironically, anythin you can reliably kill with an anti-tank rifle probably isnt a tank

>>1615763
>>1615526
Gah wrong thread

>>1615344
> I live next to a reservation.The only poor ones are the ones who spend their rezbux on meth. So still about 50%.
ANECDOTAL

>>1615163
>>1615214
Thank you for providing the only good answers in this thread.

And French hater, STFU. You sound like the biggest bigoted jackass I've ever heard and nobody takes you seriously, just like in real life. Ever.

The Clone Wars

>>1615494
Except that Austria and Germany are the ones who acted first, dipshit.

What people tend to forget is the Indians killed white settlers, so the Indian wars were justified.

Sure, it was tragic that so many died, but justice had to be served.

>>1615341
remember those small pox blankets?

>>1615344
Drug and alcohol addiction is only natural, given the state they've been reduced to. See my point about "spiritual death".

>>1616719
Nah cunt, you killed then first. Not to mention stealing their territory.

>>1615341
I don't think even most of them were nomads. A great deal of them lived in houses.

>>1615341
The Iroquois lived in longhouses.

>>1616759
Pueblo, Virginians Mississippian and southeastern people had houses. Hell even Costanoans had huts.

>>1616759
Northwestern Coastal natives had longhouses too.

>>1615359
You sound like a more "traditional"-style Englishman, which is always nice to see around here

>>1615220
The only thing the French did wrong was having literally the worst commanders.

>>1615124
And I'll be there to piss on their graves when they perish. Fuck savages and savage apologists, they deserve nothing but sincere hate.

>>1615015

There are good examples.
And I'm not upset at all about what people did hundreds of years ago.
But that is a piss poor example. There's nothing to legitimize what they did - then or now.

I would probably say that World War 2 is a pretty close example of how many shades of grey there were. If I were to pinpoint the reasons for WW2 breaking out, the indirect blame would fall on Great Britain and to a lesser extent France.

>gb fucked italy over
>france and gb fucked germany over
>gb fucked the middle east over

It was really just a group of colonial dickheads.

>>1615178

>Not as much as the North.

So? The US were obviously just as much bad guys in that engagement.

>By the time the United States ended its Southeast Asian bombing campaigns, the total tonnage of ordnance dropped approximately tripled the totals for World War II. The Indochinese bombings amounted to 7,662,000 tons of explosives, compared to 2,150,000 tons in the world conflict.[4]

The amount of death and suffering that caused cannot be calculated.

>>1616881
Fat chance man because the population is growing as well as their employment rates.

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>>1615015
>evil

>>1615015
>and thought neither were evil

>taking sides in history and assigning one as 'evil'

>>1615209
This but Germans and Serbians not Austrians. Austrians did nothing wrong.

>>1615015
>American Civil War
>Vietnam War
>WWI
>PTO in WWII
>Sepoy Mutiny
>Boxer War

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>>1616891
>There's nothing to legitimize what they did
Ideally they should have sat around the campfire singing kumbaya, well done. Give yourself a pat on the back for this astounding moral insight.

>>1615015
I know I'm going to get memed on massively for this, but the gradual conquest of the Byzantine Empire by the Turks has always fascinated me. A crumbling old Empire that's essentially a relic of another age, well past it's due being taken over by a younger, dynamic group with different religion, art and poetry styles. The more I read about it the more I think it's honestly one of the most interesting parts of Medieval history, which by and large holds no interest for me whatsoever.

>INB4 TURKROACH/REMOVE and other 2008 memes

>>1616891
What the fuck, man? You could've at least taken WW1, but WW2? That's just silly.

>>1617018
Does anybody honestly give a shit about what Ayn Rand had to say about anything?

>>1617025
The existance of Janissaries is enough to prove that Turks were born to be villains.

>>1617049
At least no self-respecting philosopher does.
Also, she only seems to be popular in the Anglosphere. She's a "literally who?" for the rest of the world, and considering her lack of impact, rightfully so.

>>1615017
>HAD to conquer

The eternal anglo

>>1615015
>>1617065
>I feel like we have to conquer all the United States in order to accommodate the growing populace of the west,
I assume that you'll feel that Africa is justified in conquering all of the United States in order to accommodate the growing populace of Africa, too, then, soon.

The West just shouldn't have grown its populace to a point where it would be necessary to conquer a continent in the first place (if that even was necessary, as you assume). And if it did, then it should've just sucked their failure up and dealt with the consequences, rather than using the consequences as an excuse for atrocities.

>>1617056
i dont think it was that bad, being jannisaries pretty much means easy social advancement, you need to remember not all jannisaries were soldiers, some choose to be bureacrats, architects, viziers etc.

hell the jannisaries pretty much ran the empire during the stagnation period

>>1615015
Could have sent in some entertainers and wine to the chiefs and said how are you guys doing.

Even Khanghis Khan knew diplomacy should be tried before warring.

>>1617108
Not OP, but attributing Manifest Destiny, or colonization in general, solely to population growth is extremely disingenuous. Especially for colonization of the Americas and Manifest Destiny. Reasoning for colonization of the America had several factors. For the Spanish it was a Christianization of the natives combined with the hidalgo mentality of the conquistadores. For the French and English it was a search for riches and/or religious freedom. Manifest Destiny, in all actuality, had little to do with a growing American population. The Louisiana Purchase meant that land was extremely plentiful even without subjugation of the savages of the Southwest and the Great Plains. Instead, Manifest Destiny was built predominantly on the idea of the City on a Hill. That the U.S. needed to encompass the American continent from sea to shining sea to stand as a bastion of liberty and justice for all (unless you're a darkie). In doing so, the U.S. would shine as the City on a Hill for the rest of the world to see and emulate. In reality, the idea of Manifest Destiny was undermined by corporate interests and became solely an idea of expansion for the sake of thanks to competing interests from certain colonial powers, but that's not what it was meant to be. TMYK.

>>1617113
>i dont think it was that bad, being jannisaries pretty much means easy social advancement,
So, we are gonna abduct your kids, indoctrinate them into your conqueror's religion and martial culture, use them to ravish your neighbours, ban them from ever marrying, and all that.

But, don't worry, we got great dental!:D

>>1617164
>ban them from ever marrying

???

>Sultan Selim II gave Janissaries permission to marry in 1566, undermining the exclusivity of loyalty to the dynasty. By 1622, the Janissaries were a "serious threat" to the stability of the Empire.[30]

>>1617164
>Abduct
slavs were literally giving head and paying off ottoman officials to try and get their kids out of shitty peasant life you sperg.

Not /his/ but i'm having a hard time picking a bad guy in Ukraine.

>>1617185
the jews

>>1616881
I'd love to see you try, you little punk. They'd wipe the floor with you. The only piss hitting the floor would be running down your leg first.

>>1617230
The piss hitting his leg would be from the featherhead so drunk off his tits that he mistook the idiot for a bathroom. The wagonburner would then proceed to pass out and drown in the piss puddle.

>>1617175
As time went by, Janissarys got increasing rights. That we know
>>1617179
Yeah, yeah. That's why maiming happened.
Besides the whole "people lined their kids for the priviledge of jannisary duty" is an anecdotal thing traced to some incident that happened once in Albania or Bosnia about a family that tried to bribe the officials.

>>1617139
>Manifest Destiny was built predominantly on the idea of the City on a Hill. That the U.S. needed to encompass the American continent from sea to shining sea to stand as a bastion of liberty and justice for all (unless you're a darkie). In doing so, the U.S. would shine as the City on a Hill for the rest of the world to see and emulate
That's a very roundabout, disingenuous way of saying
>solely an idea of expansion for the sake of power

>>1617610
Untrue. It wasn't meant to bolster American power. It was meant to bolster American ideals abroad as the ideology of uplift. You too can be like us, if you cast off your monarchy and so on and so forth. It was meant to set an example.

>>1617235
You seem upset anon, did you see an old black lady sitting at the front of a bus?

>>1616881
Why is there always a buttblasted amerifat on the conversations about Indians? It never fails to trigger one of them.

>>1618349
I get the feeling it has something to do with Americans need to lionize and glorify literally anything in their history.

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>>1615015
Almost all of them...

...Everyone, almost always, has solid justification for war from their own perspective. Hindsight, or an outside view, my declare their justification wrong, even when they win, but there are few times in history when it's really been a battle of "good" vs. "evil", or even "right" vs. "wrong" - the heartbeat of history is mostly a series of conflicting interests.

I can count the exceptions on one hand, and even then, I have some doubts that I have the full story, since I wasn't there.

>>1615124
>>1618349

Different guy. It's because we hear about it ALL. FUCKING. DAY. From people who resent our existence because we "stole their land". Natives glorify and lionize their tribal past to a level that makes no fucking sense. I live on the Crow Rez, a Plains Indian nation that ACTIVELY HELPED the U.S. conquer the west. And still, idiots who've been taught that "teh white man is ebul" from the day they can hold a milk bottle (made with industrial techniques introduced by those same whites and paid for by the government) think that gives them the right to treat me like shit.

I was the son of a fucking schoolteacher, in a dirt-poor rural community. We occasionally did not have money for groceries because we were paying our state's ridiculously high property taxes, water, and rent costs, driving the wheels off of a three-models obsolete Ford. Meanwhile, said Native spitting on me for being white and RICH (still laugh at that one) is driving his daddy's Chrysler bought with untaxed government funds, headed to his next AIM rally. So fuck 'em all.

>>1615015
>Has there ever been an instance in war history where you sympathized with both factions, and thought neither were evil but a clash was unavoidable?

Nazi German and the Soviet Union

>>1616945
The mixed race population is growing. Pure Amerindians are almost gone.

>>1615359
Get a load of this German cuck

>>1619377
Pure anything is almost gone, hell I would argue that a 'pure' race doesn't exist in the first place at the rate people have been fucking each other for thousands of years.

>>1615015
Punic war II for me. So hard to pick sides

Romans+Scipio vs Carthage+Hannibal

>>1615015
The Jews vs the Palestinians

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>>1617255
> That's why maiming happened.
What the fuck are you on about. ?Game of Thrones isn't history ..

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>>1615015
Byzantine-Sassanian wars. Two of the greatest empires in the world inadvertently bring about their own ruin at the hands of Islamic invaders. Its like a Shakespearean tragedy.

>>1617108
Well, Anglos were successful, Niggers can't even care for their shitty little statelets

>>1620094
But the good guys won anon

>>1618349
>eurocuck defending shitskin murderers

Shocking

>>1617230
t. chief Aching Rectum

>>1615209

This

>>1622008
This desu the arab conquest brought stability and peace to mesopotamia which was earlier reduced to a warzone.

>>1622544
>the arab conquest brought stability and peace to mesopotamia
pffffffffft

Peloponnesian War

Athens wanted to unify Greece, or at least the Aegean, so that they could be prepared for any tricky moves by the Persians, though eventually their intention soon devolved into creating a vast sea empire.

Sparta wanted to ensure that the city states of Greece remained free of Athenian hegemony, though in reality they were simply ass blasted that people saw the Athenians as the forerunner Greeks, instead of themselves.

>>1617025
>A crumbling old Empire that's essentially a relic of another age

Then you get to see the cycle of history when the Ottomans fall in World War 1 to Britain.

I don't understand the hate for Ottoman history at all for that same reason. You get so much cool shit over their existence.

>>1615124
>There are native Americans literally living in cardboard shacks to this very day
As opposed to straw shacks before evil whitey came and spread thousands of years of technological advancement for free? yes for free, those nomads didn't even agree to map their land or define borders so they didnt own shit.
I FUCKING HATE INJUN APOLOGISTS
I'M FROM LATIN AMERICA SO I DONT BUY THE NOBLE SAVAGE MEME YOU SHELTERED PIECE OF SHIT WHITE KEKS BELIEVE
THE EXTERMINATION OF ALL OF THEM WOULD HAD BEEN THE GREATEST GIFT TO MANKID
Nothing to get too emotional about though

>>1615215
Ahh yes... "only" 150,000 (one hundred and fifty THOUSAND) civilians.

Really made my neurons fire.

Cry me a river you fucking Indian apologists. In this world you either have your own empire or you're part of someone else's.

Tough shit they evolved in conditions that were too favorable for survival and they didn't develop the intelligence and creativity of Europeans. Life isn't fair get over it

>>1623325
Not that guy but it did for some time until the Seljuk turks came around. That's around 300 years of peace

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>>1624352
>Peloponnesian War
Fuck the Lacedaemonians, they are meme warriors that inspire the worst kinds of faggotry. Every contemporary account came to the same conclusion: if you ever actually went to the city of Sparta you would be thoroughly underwhelmed and wouldn't believe that they were as important as they were, because they lived in thatched roof huts and didn't bother building anything memorable or doing anything of significance other than terrorize their slaves on a daily basis. All they had going for them was their ever dwindling cadre of aristocratic hoplites who thought that they were the greatest warriors ever because they spent most of their time terrorizing people in chains who couldn't fight back. People like Frank Miller who fellate them needlessly never seem to have anything to say about the other 3,000 Greeks who also held the hot gates, or the fact that the Battle of Salamis was waaaaaaay more important on a strategic level than any other battle of that invasion.

Athens loss of the Peloponnesian war was a fucking disaster and probably the reason why Greece got conquered by the Macedonians, which speaks more to the weaknesses of the Athenian political model than it does to the strengths of the Spartan one. The Spartans didn't do jack shit after winning that war and when they fought someone whose military was actually competent they got BTFO at the Battle of Leuctra and ceased to exist as a significant faction on the world stage.

>>1624567
Yea it really sucks they didn't have Arabs and Chinese people to copy their technology from.

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>>1625078
Arabs are greek? Didn't know that man

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Word War II, both fascism and communism are pretty legit ways for societies. Allies are fine too, probably.

>>1615015
Tulsa race riot

>>1622544
>"peace and stability"
>what is the three muslim civil wars and abbasid revolution
>what is the fitna's
>what is the abbasid breakup into a bunch of waring emirates and poser caliphs like the buyids, samanids and fatimids
If not for the Seljuks removing most of the enemies to the Abbasids and giving them power in the form of "rulers of Islam" then Arab influence in the ME would have ended before the Mongols even came around.

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>>1617018
>Quoting Ayn Rand
>Ever

>>1615015
WW2 between the Germans/Italians/Japs and Commonwealth/USA

I feel that the Western Allies should've allied with the Axis to defeat the USSR

>>1625103
This the part where you claim that they are actually Ancient Aryans?

>>1625123
The be fair, all of those conflicts were very low-key compared to the Roman-Persian wars. They mostly involved a small population of Arab elites and left the population alone. It's not until the Seljuks that things start to resemble the bad old days, and foreshadow the Mongol rampage to come.

>>1615341
you vastly understate the complexity of their societies.

>>1619437
Came into the thread to post this. Though I think that the Romans started being dickcheeses around/after the 3rd Punic War when Cato stepped in.

>>1624579
The Arabs kept fighting against each other until they had to unite against a common foe AKA the Crusades.

>its that one retard who whines incessantly whenever someone says that natives arent all bloodthirsty savages

>>1625945
But anon, you must remember the six gorillion at Jamestown!

>>1625945
I'm 1/4th cheyenne and I used to believe in the 'we wuz like egyptians with pyramids n shiiet' and I still do to some extent
but it's hard to take seriously when a bunch of your family on your indian side act like fuckin savages

>>1615494
>Eternal Teuton
this might be my new favorite "eternal _____"

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>>1625950
>massacring people is only tragic when they're not white

>>1616891
>ww2
>shades of gray
>ANSCHLUSS WAS JUSTIFIED
>SO WAS SUDETEN
>SO WAS DANZIG

how many levels of kraut do you have to be on to not see that Hitler was an aggressor and a psychopath? Christ almighty.

>>1616891
>>1625984
The Hitler dindu nuffin meme is pretty tired. I mean I even sometimes defend nazi Germany because it's often being unfathomably demonized in modern media, but starting the war is 100% on them.

>Okay Germany, here's how we're gonna have a peaceful relations-
>WATCH ME REMILITARIZE THE RHINELAND AND VIOLATE THE TREATY WE SIGNED, FAGGOTS
>Now Mr. Hitler that's pretty unfortunate but I have to assure you we aren't going to do anything, as we desire peace
>THOUGHT SO. NOW WHERE WAS I? OH RIGHT. AUSTRIA. I WANT IT.
>Well your country seems to be violating treaties left and right, but okay, they are German country after all and they want to live with you. We aren't going to war over this.
>YEAH OKAY BITCHES, HOW ABOUT SUDETENLAND? THEY ARE GERMANS TOO! I WANT SUDETENLAND!
>But they are a part of another sovereign na-
>I DON'T GIVE A SHIT, I WANT SUDETENLAND. EITHER GIVE ME SUDETENLAND OR YOU'LL REGRET IT.
>This is getting pretty uncomfortable but have it your way, we aren't getting dragged to another war. It's not worth it.
>HAHA ACTUALLY FORGET IT I WANT ENTIRE BOHEMIA AND MORAVIA NOW, HOW ABOUT THAT?
>O-okay, w-want peace. J-just don't touch Poland.
>WHILE I'M AT IT, I'M TAKING POLAND TOO!
>Fine that's it, you're taking this too far, we have to declare war now
>REEEEEE I KNEW IT YOU'RE FUCKING WARMONGERS !!!!!

>>1625959
I bet some people feel the same way if they got trailer trash in their family as well.

>>1626006
>Fine that's it, you're taking this too far, we have to declare war now
>REEEEEE I KNEW IT YOU'RE FUCKING WARMONGERS !!!!!
>*cirp chirp*
>does nothing until being invaded

Riddle me this: If the allies stance on war was the very same passive "I don't care as long as it's not us" like the other times they bend to Germany's demands, why declare war in the first place?

Just to save face by "honouring" their treaty? And then what? Bring the Germans to the negotiating table for some white peace and a guarantee of their borders?

This is some shit straight out of Victoria 2 when you ally GB as a minor power.

>>1619412
I try telling people this but it seems like everyone thinks inter-racial marriage and reproduction across different ethnicities is a this new thing.

>>1627477
Well now you know there is at least one other person who doesn't think that if it makes you feel any better.

>>1615215
> only

>>1615015
The social war.

>>1615169
>b-b-but america was as bad as the soviets
no, shut the fuck up.

>>1625103
Arabs preserved and built upon the work started by the Greeks, who were themselves preserving and building upon the work started by the Egyptians.

>>1617197
t. Ukrainian