Why did the Christian God command it's believers to be such

>>1610478
>shitty
>no sense
>no depth
>no perspective
To match the religion perfectly?

>>1610478
Christians are known to be shit be shit at everything they do

>b-but muh newton

Statistical outliers, you dumb christcuck

It didn't have anything to do with religion as much as the economic realities of the time and place as well as some scientific limitations.

Hence why later Christian artists produced some of the most enduring works of art in all of history.

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Hm

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Hmm

>>1610496
>>1610503
Are Atheists really this stupid?

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>muh naturalism

Christian artists knew how to create "naturalist" art, and chose to for some applications. Pic related, arm reliquary ca. 1190. However, they prioritized other things—gesture, emotion, narrative, devotional impact, etc.—for other works. Food for thought: why try to depict the divine through imitating the earthly?

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3rd century Rome

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>>1610542
/thread

Classicists are the cancer of art.

20th century Rome

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Were atheists crafting finer art than Christians were in the middle ages or something?

>>1610544
the first anime

>>1610539
Look at this triggered christcuck

>>1610549
That's gaudy as shit. I'm not even the sort who thinks all art has to be hyper realistic.

>>1610562

>posts something stupid
>gets called stupid
>lol triggered

Fedoras are truely the shitposters of our time.

>>1610571
>it's stupid because it hurts my feelings

This is how christcucks actually think

what does jewish art look like?

>>1610575
after a quick search, surprisingly similar to islamic religious art

>>1610478
>implying medieval art isn't the best form or art

pleb

>>1610574

>to top it all off, he uses cuck unironically

Living meme.

>>1610598
take that back

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>>1610503
>

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>>1610478
Eastern Christian iconography is widely considered visually pleasing.

>>1610651
>he's too much a subhuman to understand the concept of statistical outliers

Out of centuries of dominating the western world, and billions of followers through history, that's all what christucks can produce.

Meanwhile, nowadays atheists utterly dominate elite scientific institutions like the National Academy of Sciences, and are extremely overrepresented in sciences in general.

>>1610651
>we wuz scientists n shiet

Meanwhile, no a single living person on the list, top kek

>>1610696
>atheist subhuman calling me a subhuman
top lel

>>1610696
I'm an atheist and i work in science, here a fact, i meet a lot of religious people. Ultra religious fagotery(atheist or not) is meet in general in america, Europe have less of this bullshit(turkey and Iran too, arabe are unicorn).

>>1610713
Not an argument

>>1610711
Yes, yes, fuck Christianity and the Western civilization which it built, good ***. If we destroy it we will surely be colonizing the universe hehe.

>>1610726
/pol/faggots certainly don't know subtlety

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>fedorafags think this is bad art

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>>1610740
I hate /pol/ as much as I hate atheists, m'lad.

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>>1610478
Did they not succeed in creating art that people are still talking about centuries later on Internet message boards?

>Moses said to the Lord, "Pardon your servant, Lord. I have never been eloquent, neither in the past nor since you have spoken to your servant. I am slow of speech and tongue." The Lord said to him, "Who gave human beings their mouths? Who makes them deaf or mute? Who gives them sight or makes them blind? Is it not I, the Lord? Now go; I will help you speak and will teach you what to say. (Exodus 4:10-12)

>>1610750
>Nazi Germany
>no religion

This is how you spot mental defectives.

>>1610531
>>1610524
Kebabs didn't even have art like that until after the Mongols sacked Baghdad.

>>1610761
demonic occultist neo-pagan LARP garbage =/= religion

>>1610761
They had nothing to do with religion besides the catholic church whom they saw as an enemy and what >>1610776
mentioned

>>1610776
The VAST majority of Nazis, people who voted for the Nazis, and members of the armed forces were Christian. Positive Christianity was the official religion of the party, and atheists were persecuted.

Saying Nazi Germany was irreligious is obscene denialism.

>>1610785

>>1610789

>>1610789
Thanks for taking the time to defend Nazi Germany you're doing God's work.

>>1610826
Is this bait?
I can't parse an argument out of your post

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>>1610826

German soldiers had "Gott Mitt Uns" (God is with Us!) written on every belt buckle.

Personally, I think its a good touch to their outfit. They were closest we got to real life Space Marines.

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>>1610761

Those evil Christians amirite?

>>1610860
Read the thread you retarded papist

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>>1610789
nice try

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>>1610868
>only catholics are christian

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>>1610860
Saved. God Bless the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church.

>Pius XI watched the rising tide of totalitarianism with alarm and delivered three papal encyclicals challenging the new creeds: against Italian Fascism Non abbiamo bisogno (1931; 'We do not need (to acquaint you)'); against Nazism "Mit brennender Sorge" (1937; 'With deep concern') and against atheist Communist Divini redemptoris (1937; 'Divine Redeemer'). He also challenged the extremist nationalism of the Action Française movement and anti-Semitism in the United States.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope_Pius_XI#International_relations

>>1610803
"Positive christianity" is rather vague don't you think? And i'm quite confident that Hitler and the leading nazi ideologists were at least critical of christianity as it opposed the darwinistic race struggle
I once evem read that Hitler planned to eradicate christianity once the war was over but i'm too lazy to search it for you shitheads

>>1610904
I don't really care what you are "quite confident" about, to be honest. I laid out a clear argument, and so far you have nothing to challenge it.

Nazi Germany was NOT an irreligious society, period.

>>1610910

There are no irreligious societies. Where in any Christian doctrine would you find justification for things like euthanasia and other things that the Nazis supported? If you can't draw a clear connection then you can't blame Christianity for motivating the Nazis. Anyone can call themselves a Christian but it wouldn't make it so.

>>1610910
I never claimed it wasn't. It's still likely that the nazis wanted to get rid of the church https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_views_of_Adolf_Hitler i know it's just Wikipedia but better then nothing

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>>1610876
The schismatic eastern "orthodox" are Christians too.

As for protestants (with their thousands of different denominations), they have an entirely different theology and believe in a different Jesus who never existed, hence the reason they do not practice Christianity but another religion, like the ancient gnostics.

See >>1610676 >>1610680

>>1610937
>le no true christian

Top kek. And yes, Nazis were influenced by Christianity, German antisemitism was partially rooted in the antisemitism of the church at the time, which blamed the Jews for killing Jesus.

>>1610947
>I never claimed it wasn't

>>1610750

>>1610980
That isn't christian ideology though which the nazis evidently opposed

>>1610998
They didn't oppose it. I know you still want to play the "no true Christian" card, but we both know that's not an argument.

>>1610952
>The schismatic eastern "orthodox"
Funny, because it was the Roman Catholic Bishop that broke from the Church in favor of earthy power and the Papal Supremacy heresy.
There is only One Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Orthodox Church, and it isn't the Roman Catholic Church.

>>1610544
I've noticed a pattern in ancient art

Greeks would sculpture idealized figures
Romans would sculpture realistic
Late Romans would drift into this sort of aesthetic like you posted, focusing on the eyes
Byzantines will continue, emphasizing the eyes
Orthodox art would take off from there while Catholic medieval art develop its own style in the then developing kingdoms and nations of Europe

Any art&history student to confirm my observation?

>>1610952
*worships statues*
*prays to "saints"*
*rapes altar boy*

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>>1610986
The anon you replied to isn't me >>1610750

>>1611026
Pic related. There is no "orthodox church".

Christ founded only one Church, the Universal (Catholic) Church, whose first Pope is Saint Peter.

Also, reminder that the Council of Florence happened.

Test

>>1611035
those are all more or less accurate observations

but what do you consider to be the "pattern" here?

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>>1611037
>regurgitates anti-Catholic memes

Reminder:
>Sue Widemark A Penn State historian, Philip Jenkins, has done in-depth research of pedophilia and sexual abuse among the clergy and has come up with some rather eye opening facts (Pedophiles and Priests, Anatomy of a Crisis, Oxford University Press, 1996, Paperback edition, 2001). It seems that while .2 to 1.7 percent of Catholic clergy have been guilty of pedophilia (or sexual abuse particularly of boys, p. 80-82), a whopping 10 percent of Protestant ministers have been found guilty of sexual misconduct with a 2 or 3 percent pedophilia rate (p. 50-52).

>This is all the more interesting, notes Jenkins, since there has been NO media term "Pastor Pedophilia" coined at all! Jenkins theorizes that the media, proving the 'point' of the 'necessity' of sexual promiscuity, overemphasizes any instance of pedophilia found among the Catholic clergy since it can use this to criticize the entire idea of celibacy. But it is interesting that the NON Celibate Protestant ministers have a MUCH GREATER problem with it than the celibate Catholic priests!

>Jenkins' research was based on several highly respected studies and statistics. He points out that whereas sexual misconduct has always been a problem, among Catholic and non-Catholic clergy as well as among the general populace, what is new now is that the 'problem' of priest sexual abuse, constructed by the media as a result of a 'moral panic' occurring in the mid-1980's.

http://www.catholic-convert.com/wp-content/uploads/SexInProtestantChurches.pdf

>>1611060
maybe pattern wasn't the best word, but I meant the art's development. Clearly common medieval art was inferior to ancient Roman art, and I'd assume it was because the nations of Europe were still in their infancy and didn't know shit about aesthetic, really just scraping from Byzantium and developing their own style. I wonder how come the late roman art is so stylized, it genuinely looks like tumble fanart. Could be the result of new cultures being integrated into the Roman empire? It's just odd how it drifted from realistic to that, and eventually in Byzantine style.

Funny how Italy was where realistic art was born and reborn.

>>1611079
tumblr fanart**

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>>1611054
Yeah I bet if homeless wandering rabblerousing Jesus of Nazarene came back here he'd be all hunky dory with Literal Roman gilded boyfucking castles.

>>1611079
I've heard others make these same observations, but I think a lot of this stems from a desire to assign a cohesive, simple narrative to something as complex as the history of entire cultures. To point out one example of what I'm talking about, you're referring to one style of art as "inferior" without really taking into account craftsmanship, style, aesthetics, etc. Instead, you're equating naturalism/classicism with whatever makes an artwork "superior". "Classical art is the best because it's the most classical" is basically your thesis.

This is the basic assumption that most people enter the study of art with, myself included. I highly recommend looking more into art history if this sort of stuff interests you, because it only gets more interesting the deeper you go. "Ways of Seeing" with John Berger is a really good starting point; although focused on later art and a bit outdated/flawed, it makes you think about these sorts of issues

>>1611007

I don't think you really understand the no true Scotsman fallacy. If somebody doesn't follow Christian doctrine than he's not acting in a Christian way.

>>1611054
The Orthodox Church - the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church - is the true, original Church founded by Christ. It is without the innovations found in the Roman Catholic Church such as Papal Supremacy, compulsive clerical celibacy, water for Baptism, the Gregorian calendar, and the Roman Catholic belief of purgatorial fire, among others.
It is also without the subtractions founded in Protestant groups, all of which are heretics, such as the disregard of Church Tradition and the practice of Sola Scriptura.
Learn Greek, read the New Testament, and realize that the "rock" in Greek is not mentioning Peter. In Latin it does, but not in the original Greek. Therefore, the Roman Catholic interpretation is an innovation. "Papal Supremacy" was not a part of the Church upon it's founding, therefore it is an innovation.
>Also, reminder that the Council of Florence happened.
Yes, and it is null and void to the Church since it was after the Roman Catholic Church split off.

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>>1611099
Christ loves Benedict XVI, he was a great pope.

Did God ask the jews to build a simple little box for the Ark of the Covenant? You think that Christ is shocked by papal attire? You think that Christ is still an ascetic wandering homeless man?

>>1611126
thanks, I'll look into that. But by "inferior" I meant they lacked the skill and knowledge to achieve Classical art, not that it was "worse". I don't assume Medieval tapestry is bad, just that it developed out of touch with Roman art and they couldn't achieve their realism even if they wanted.

>>1611054
kek someone doesn't understand how Eastern Orthodoxy or the early church works.

these churches are all one, in the same way that all of the sui juris churches are one, though there is no papal institution in this instance.

also, the EO churches have a presence in every continent, including antarctica.

>>1611190
>You think that Christ is still an ascetic wandering homeless man?
uh yes
What in any of this imperial pageantry would Jesus have applauded?

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>>1611261
>ethnophyletist churches
>one
Pick one.
>presence in every continent
Mormonism too lad.

Who were the first to preach the Gospel in every continent though as Christ commanded (Matt. 28:18-20)? [spoiler]Catholics[/spoiler]

>>1611355
Papist is mad because his favorite altar boi had a "headache" today

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>>1611379
>joking about kids being molested
>thinks he's Christian
Read >>1611069 btw.

>>1611355
>Who were the first to preach the Gospel in every continent though as Christ commanded (Matt. 28:18-20)? [spoiler]Catholics[/spoiler]

Who didn't exist until the schism?

[spoiler]Catholics[/spoiler]

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>>1610542
>gesture, emotion, narrative, devotional impact
If those things were well conveyed by crappy pictures like the one OP posted I think people would have no problem with them.
Manga for example is better at doing "expressive not realistic" art than Medieval shit. Manga is famous for being flat, but Medieval art just feels wooden compared to the most hastily drawn manga scribble. It really feels like you're trying to bullshit us into seeing the Emperor's new clothes.

>>1611417
There's nothing in the bible about rape jokes.

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>>1612219
In fact the best modern comparison I can find for Medieval art are the dolan and spurdo comics. Only they manage to capture that atmosphere of stillness and repetition.

>>1610696
>Out of centuries of dominating the western world, and billions of followers through history, that's all what christucks can produce
You've basically said "Ha! You only make $1 Billion each hour!"

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>>1610849
That "Gott Mitt Un" was there before the Nazis even came along.

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>>1612187
>"If the Roman See recognizes Pyrrhus to be . . . a heretic, it is certainly clear that everyone who condemns those who reject Pyrrhus condemns the See of Rome, that is he condemns the Catholic Church. I need hardly add that he excommunicates himself also . . . It is unjust that anyone who has been condemned and expelled by the Apostolic See of Rome for his errors should be honored at all, until he has been received by her, returning to her and to the Lord Himself, by a devout confession of the orthodox faith, by which alone he can receive holiness . . .

>Let him hurry to satisfy in everything the See of Rome, for if Rome is satisfied all will agree that he is orthodox. For he only speaks foolishly who thinks he can persuade people like me, without first satisfying and begging the most blessed Pope of the Romans, the Apostolic See which has received universal and supreme authority and power of binding and loosing over all the Holy Churches of God in the whole world from the Incarnate Son of God Himself, and also by the holy synods in their canons and definitions. With it the Word who is above the powers of heaven binds and looses in heaven also.

>Anyone who thinks he can satisfy others without imploring pardon of the most blessed Pope of Rome, is acting like someone who is accused of murder or some other crime and does not prove his innocence to the lawfully appointed judge, but to uselessly demonstrate his innocence to private persons who have no power to acquit him"

Maximus the Confessor, Letter to the Priest Marinus of Cyprus, A.D. 641

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>>1612187
>Hear, O Apostolic Head, divinely-appointed Shepherd of Christ's sheep, keybearer of the Kingdom of Heaven, Rock of the Faith upon whom the Catholic Church is built. For Peter art thou, who adornest and governest the Chair of Peter. Hither, then, from the West, imitator of Christ, arise and repel not for ever (Ps. xliii. 23). To thee spake Christ our Lord: 'And thou being one day converted, shalt strengthen thy brethren.' Behold the hour and the place. Help us, thou that art set by God for this. Stretch forth thy hand so far as thou canst. Thou hast strength with God, through being the first of all.
(Letter of St. Theodore and four other Abbots to Pope Paschal, Bk. ii Ep. 12, Patr. Graec. 99, 1152-3)

I could go on and on.

>>1612223
>Therefore be imitators of God, as beloved children. And walk in love, as Christ loved us and gave himself up for us, a fragrant offering and sacrifice to God. But sexual immorality and all impurity or covetousness must not even be named among you, as is proper among saints. Let there be no filthiness nor foolish talk nor crude joking, which are out of place, but instead let there be thanksgiving.
Ephesians 5:1-4

>>1612280
>>1612299
schismatics on suicide watch

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>shitty artists

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>>1610478
At least they've got better.

Meanwhile in 19th century Japan...

>>1613231
While the perspective is Escher-tier mindbreaking, that's actually a really great picture. The colors, the faces on the figureheads, it's quite poignant.

>>1612250
The fuck are you talking about, you dumb christcuck?

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>>1612280
>the Catholic Church
Catholic does not mean Roman Catholic, you absolutely theologically illiterate dip. Of course the Pope was Primus Inter Pares during the early church period.

In addition to that, I can't find any non-byzantine catholic source on your translation of St. Maximus's letter to Fr. Marinus of Cyprus. All things having been considered, here, unless you show me evidence that the latter of the three paragraphs you quoted actually came from St. Maximus, I'm going to have to say that they're obviously either RC mistranslations or forgeries.
>>1612309
Not really -- he hasn't given any source for his quotations and most of them are taken out of context to intentionally support the claim that the patriarch of the west is somehow the head of the church -- when the only true head of our church is the one lord, Jesus Christ.

>>1612299
>1152-3

>>1610549
futurists fuck off back to memesville

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Medieval style art is gorgeous. Sorry you can't appreciate the A E S T H E T I C

>>1613935
The Adowa one is funny
>Italy is defeated by a Medieval-tier country so hard, a Modern Army is shown beaten in Medieval Art.

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>>1613946
Remove Spaghetti.
Remove Linguini from premises.

>>1613906
>everyone who condemns those who reject Pyrrhus condemns the See of Rome, that is he condemns the Catholic Church
Can't you read?

>>1610747
yuck. too tacky.

>>1610849
more like chaos cultists with all the meth.

>>1614320
I can, but you seem to lack comprehension.
The see of rome is the symbolic first among equals in the church of the Christ. Those who reject a certain teaching, and those who condemn a certain see, condemn all of the sees which hold to the orthodox and catholic truth. This is not ground breaking.

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>>1614385
Stop repeating that "first among equals" meme. It's cringey.

>The extremities of the earth, and everyone in every part of it who purely and rightly confess the Lord, look directly towards the Most Holy Roman Church and her confession and faith, as to a sun of unfailing light awaiting from her the brilliant radiance of the sacred dogmas of our Fathers, according to that which the inspired and holy Councils have stainlessly and piously decreed. For, from the descent of the Incarnate Word amongst us, all the churches in every part of the world have held the greatest Church alone to be their base and foundation, seeing that, according to the promise of Christ Our Savior, the gates of hell will never prevail against her, that she has the keys of the orthodox confession and right faith in Him, that she opens the true and exclusive religion to such men as approach with piety, and she shuts up and locks every heretical mouth which speaks against the Most High.

(Maximus, Opuscula theologica et polemica, Migne, Patr. Graec. vol. 90)

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>>1614385
>The Pope of Rome, the head of the Christian priesthood, whom in Peter, the Lord commanded to confirm his brethren.
(John VI, Epist. ad Constantin. Pap. ad. Combefis, Auctuar. Bibl. P.P. Graec.tom. ii. p. 211, seq.)

>Without whom (the Romans presiding in the seventh Council) a doctrine brought forward in the Church could not, even though confirmed by canonical decrees and by ecclesiastical usuage, ever obtain full approval or currency. For it is they (the Popes of Rome) who have had assigned to them the rule in sacred things, and who have received into their hands the dignity of headship among the Apostles.
(Nicephorus, Niceph. Cpl. pro. s. imag. c 25 [Mai N. Bibl. pp. ii. 30])

Writing to Pope Leo III:
>Since to great Peter Christ our Lord gave the office of Chief Shepherd after entrusting him with the keys of the Kingdom of Heaven, to Peter or his successor must of necessity every novelty in the Catholic Church be referred. [Therefore], save us, oh most divine Head of Heads, Chief Shepherd of the Church of Heaven.
(Theodore, Bk. I. Ep. 23)

>>1610478
Reasure me, you're not one of those retards who think antiquity painting were the same quality as Renaissance ones, right?

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>>1614385
Writing to Emperor Michael:
>Order that the declaration from old Rome be received, as was the custom by Tradition of our Fathers from of old and from the beginning. For this, O Emperor, is the highests of the Churches of God, in which first Peter held the Chair, to whom the Lord said: Thou art Peter …and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
(Theodore, Bk. II. Ep. 86)

>I witness now before God and men, they have torn themselves away from the Body of Christ, from the Surpreme See (Rome), in which Christ placed the keys of the Faith, against which the gates of hell (I mean the mouth of heretics) have not prevailed, and never will until the Consummation, according to the promise of Him Who cannot lie. Let the blessed and Apostolic Paschal (Pope St. Paschal I) rejoice therefore, for he has fulfilled the work of Peter.
(Theodore Bk. II. Ep. 63)

Writing to the Pope:
>Yielding honor to the Apostolic See and to Your Holiness, and honoring your Holiness, as one ought to honor a father, we have hastened to subject all the priests of the whole Eastern district, and to unite them to the See of your Holiness, for we do not allow of any point, however manifest and indisputable it be, which relates to the state of the Churches, not being brought to the cognizance of your Holiness, since you are the Head of all the holy Churches.
(Justinian Epist. ad. Pap. Joan. ii. Cod. Justin. lib. I. tit. 1).

>>1614487
>the Christian priesthood

>>1614463
>Stop repeating that "first among equals" meme. It's cringey.

It's a historical fact which was, in and of itself, promulgated by secular and western historians. I find it sort of funny that you're calling any of my statements 'cringey' when you yourself have been spamming out of context maymays with icons that belong to saints of the eastern tradition, as if to solidify your point by appropriating our people.

Beyond that -- your church has consistently disregarded the myriad of other documents which St. Theodore wrote throughout his life, and has used the few quotations (taken out of context) to support the outlandish idea of papal supremacy.

>>I witness now before God and men, they have torn themselves away from the Body of Christ, from the Surpreme See (Rome), in which Christ placed the keys of the Faith, against which the gates of hell (I mean the mouth of heretics) have not prevailed, and never will until the Consummation, according to the promise of Him Who cannot lie. Let the blessed and Apostolic Paschal (Pope St. Paschal I) rejoice therefore, for he has fulfilled the work of Peter.

I have never denied in what I have said -- nor does the Orthodox Church deny -- that the See of Rome is first. among. equals. The usage of 'supreme' in that example is not the same as the usage of 'supreme' in the sense of complete doctrinal inerrancy.

In any case -- it does not, and it has never mattered, what a handful of church fathers and an emperor believed, the consistently shown ethic of the faith triumphs over them. Some of the fathers held heretical views; Ephraim the Syrian believed that heaven had many layers, Origen (though never canonized) believed in the pre-existence of the Soul, Gregory of Nyssa (arguably) avowed that the devil would be saved.

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>>1614945
>"Ever since the popes were first articulate about the General Council, they have claimed the right to control its action and to give or withhold an approbation of its decisions which stamps them as the authentic teaching of the Church of Christ. Only through their summoning it, or through their consenting to take their place at it (whether personally or by legates sent in their name), or by their subsequent acceptance of the council, does the assembly of bishops become a General Council. No member of the Church has ever proposed that a General Council shall be summoned and the pope be left out, nor that the pope should take any other position at the General Council but as its president...in no council has it been moved that the Bishop of X be promoted to the place of the Bishop of Rome, or that the bishop of Rome's views be disregarded and held of no more account than those of the bishop of any other major see...the general shape is ever discernible of a Roman Primacy universally recognized, and submitted to, albeit (at times) unwillingly -- recognized and submitted to because, so the bishops believed, it was set up by God himself."
(Hughes, The Church in Crisis: A History of the General Councils, page 5-6)

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>>1614945
>"Everywhere, in the East no less than the West, Rome enjoyed a special prestige, as is indicated by the precedence accorded without question to it....Thus Rome's preeminance remained undisputed in the patristic period. For evidence of it the student need only recall the leading position claimed as a matter of course by the popes, and freely conceded to them, at the councils of Ephesus (431) and Chalcedon (451). We even find the fifth-century historians Socrates and Sozomen concluding...that it was unconstitutional for synods to be held without the Roman pontiff being invited or for decisions to be taken without his concurrence. At the outbreak of the Christological controversy, it will be remembered, both Nestorius and Cyril hastened to bring their cases to Rome, the latter declaring that the ancient custom of the churches constrained him to communicate matters of such weight to the Pope and to seek his advice before acting. In one of his sermons he goes so far as to salute Celestine as 'the archbishop of the whole world' .....It goes without saying that Augustine [c. 354 - 430 AD] identifies the Church with the universal Catholic Church of his day, with its hierarchy and sacraments, and with its centre at Rome....

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>>1614945
>>1615113
>By the middle of the fifth century the Roman church had established, de jure as well as de facto, a position of primacy in the West, and the papal claims to supremacy over all bishops of Christendom had been formulated in precise terms....The student tracing the history of the times, particularly of the Arian, Donatist, Pelagian and Christological controversies, cannot fail to be impressed by the skill and persistence with which the Holy See [of Rome] was continually advancing and consolidating its claims. Since its occupant was accepted as the successor of St. Peter, and prince of the apostles, it was easy to draw the inference that the unique authority which Rome in fact enjoyed, and which the popes saw concentrated in their persons and their office, was no more than the fulfilment of the divine plan."
(J.N.D. Kelly, Early Christian Doctrines, pages 406, 407, 413, 417)

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>>1614945
>"Unquestionably, the Roman church very early developed something like a sense of obligation to the oppressed all over Christendom....Consequently there was but one focus of authority. By the year 252, there seem to have been one hundred bishops in central and southern Italy but outside Rome there was nothing to set one bishop above another. All were on a level together, citizens of Italy, accustomed to look to Rome for direction in every detail of public life. The Roman bishop had the right not only to ordain but even, on occasion, to select bishops for Italian churches....To Christians of the Occident, the Roman church was the sole, direct link with the age of the New Testament and its bishop was the one prelate in their part of the world in whose voice they discerned echoes of the apostles' speech. The Roman bishop spoke always as the guardian of an authoritative tradition, second to none. Even when the eastern churches insisted that their traditions were older and quite as sacred, if not more so, the voice in the West, unaccustomed to rivalry at home, spoke on regardless of protest or denunciation at a distance....

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>>1611099
Jesus wouldn't be cool with any gentile claiming to be his follower. He repeatedly said he was only coming to save the masterrace

>>1614945
>"The theory of [Pope] Stephen, that kindled his contemporaries to such utter exasperation, was rather that the Church was a monarchy, a congeries indeed of bishoprics but all of them subject to the superior authority of the one bishop who sat upon the throne of the prince of the apostles [Peter]. The Roman See, as distinct from the Roman church, was and sought to be predominant, not for its situation or other wordly advantes, not even for its treasure of doctrine, bequeathed by its two founders, but, primarily and fundamentally, because its bishop was heir in his own person to the unique prerogative conferred upon Peter. To Peter had been granted a primacy among the apostles, so to the Roman bishop was assigned a leadership over the bishops....The Arians, who had ousted Athanasius from Alexandria, offered to submit the case to [Pope] Julius for his judgment. Athanasius himself and other orthodox refugees from eastern sees went directly to Rome as to a court of appeal...

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>>1610478
>scribes
>artists

>>1614945
>"At the general Council of Sardica [343 AD]...the orthodox Easterners and Westerners stayed behind to issue another, in which they claimed for the Roman bishop an appellate jurisdiction over all the Church in honor of 'the memory of Peter, the apostle.'...[by the time of Pope Damasus]...there can be no doubt that large numbers of eastern Christians had by this time become convinced of the genuine superiority of the Roman See in faith and religious insight. The eastern emperor Theodosius published an edict requiring his subjects to accept the doctrine which Peter had committed to the Romans....it was the trustworthy authority of Peter to which the East paid homage in the fourth century, not the wealth nor the power of Rome....From the time when Eleutherus was asked to condemn the Montanists, through the period when Callistus, Stephen and Dionysius revised and interpreted dogma, down to the days when the Nicene creed was defended on the ground of its Roman origin and Liberius and Damasus endorsed or rejected eastern declarations of faith according as they did or did not measure up to their own standards, the Roman bishops asserted their right to speak for the tradition of Peter."
(Shotwell/Loomis, The See of Peter, page 217-228)

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>>1614945
>"Let us turn to the facts. We know that the Church of Rome took over the position of 'church-with-priority' at the end of the first century. That was about the time at which her star ascended into the firmament of history in its brightest splendor...Even as early as the Epistle to the Romans, Rome seems to have stood out among all the churches as very important. Paul bears witness that the faith of the Romans was proclaimed throughout the whole world (Rom 1:8)....we have a document which gives us our earliest reliable evidence that the Church of Rome stood in an exceptional position of authority in this period. This is the epistle of Clement of Rome...We know that Clement was 'president' of the Roman Church...."
(The Orthodox study The Primacy of Peter (St. Vladimir's Seminary Press, 1992) by John Meyendorff states on St. Clement of Rome and the ante-Nicene period (before 325 AD), Afanassieff from Meyendorff, page 124)

>"The epistle [Clement of Rome to the Corinthians] is couched in very measured terms, in the form of an exhortation; but at the same time it clearly shows that the Church of Rome was aware of the decisive weight, in the Church of Corinth's eyes, that must attach to its witness about the events in Corinth. So the Church of Rome, at the end of the first century, exhibits a marked sense of its own priority, in point of witness about events in other churches. Note also that the Roman Church did not feel obliged to make a case, however argued, to justify its authoritative pronouncements on what we should now call the internal concerns of other churches. There is nothing said about the grounds of this priority....Apparently Rome had no doubt that its priority would be accepted without argument."
(The Orthodox study The Primacy of Peter (St. Vladimir's Seminary Press, 1992) by John Meyendorff states on St. Clement of Rome and the ante-Nicene period (before 325 AD), Afanassieff from Meyendorff, page 125-126)

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>>1614945
>"Rome's vocation [in the "pre-Nicene period"] consisted in playing the part of arbiter, settling contentious issues by witnessing to the truth or falsity of whatever doctrine was put before them. Rome was truly the center where all converged if they wanted their doctrine to be accepted by the conscience of the Church. They could not count upon success except on one condition -- that the Church of Rome had received their doctrine -- and refusal from Rome predetermined the attitude the other churches would adopt. There are numerous cases of this recourse to Rome...."
(The Orthodox study The Primacy of Peter (St. Vladimir's Seminary Press, 1992) by John Meyendorff states on St. Clement of Rome and the ante-Nicene period (before 325 AD), Afanassieff from Meyendorff, page 128f, 133)

>"It is impossible to deny that, even before the appearance of local primacies, the Church from the first days of her existence possessed an ecumenical center of unity and agreement. In the apostolic and the Judaeo-Christian period, it was the Church of Jerusalem, and later the Church of Rome -- 'presiding in agape,' according to St. Ignatius of Antioch. This formula and the definition of the universal primacy contained in it have been aptly analyzed by Fr. Afanassieff and we need not repeat his argument here. Neither can we quote here all the testimonies of the Fathers and the Councils unanimously acknowledging Rome as the senior church and the center of ecumenical agreement. It is only for the sake of biased polemics that one can ignore these testimonies, their consensus and significance."
(The Orthodox study The Primacy of Peter (St. Vladimir's Seminary Press, 1992) by John Meyendorff states on St. Clement of Rome and the ante-Nicene period (before 325 AD), Schmemann from Meyendorff, page 163-164)

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>>1614945
This >>1615108 >>1615113 >>1615116 >>1615126 >>1615129 >>1615141 >>1615152 >>1615157 is what the historians which you speak of have to say. I also could go on and on about the primacy of Saint Peter.

Deal with it my schismatic friend.

>>1615165
do you spend all day replying to people on the internet with spammed quotations and no actual arguments amigo

>>1614945
>out of context maymays
Quotes from Church Fathers are not "maymays", the only maymay here is "muh out of context".
>m-muh icons
I don't care about your precious ugly icons, I'm simply posting images related to my posts.
>it does not, and it has never mattered, what a handful of church fathers and an emperor believed
Oh so you're actually just a proddy role-playing as "le patrician orthodox"?

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>>1615185
When someone is denying the claims and beliefs held by groups of people, all I can do is "spam" quotes from said groups of people. What ensues is mental gymnastics. It's amusing really.

>"This Church is holy, the one Church, the true Church, the Catholic Church, fighting as she does against all heresies. She can fight, but she cannot be beaten. All heresies are expelled from her, like the useless loppings pruned from a vine. She remains fixed in her root, in her vine, in her love. The gates of hell shall not conquer her."
St. Augustine, Sermon to Catechumens, on the Creed, 6,14, 395 A.D.

>But, even the Church itself by itself, because of its marvelous propagation, its exceptional holiness, and inexhaustible fruitfulness in all good works; because of its catholic unity and invincible stability, is a very great and perpetual motive of credibility, and an incontestable witness of its own divine mission.
Vatican I, Session 3, Chapter 3

Sorry anon but the ethnophyletist eastern schismatic "orthodox" churches are not in any way shape or form the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church founded by Christ Himself.

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>>1615187
>Oh so you're actually just a proddy role-playing as "le patrician orthodox"?

The consensus of the church matters more than any one voice in the church, wouldn't you agree? tradition is a symphony of voices, that which does not follow the harmony is discord.

>When someone is denying the claims and beliefs held by groups of people, all I can do is "spam" quotes from said groups of people. What ensues is mental gymnastics. It's amusing really.

You are are literally the catholic equivalent of a reddit atheist who quotes ~100 bible verses which supposedly 'prove' christianity to be warmongering/false. A victory by attrition is not an actual victory in dialectical argument, f a m.

>>1615227
Nice false equivalence my schismatic friend.

>>1615294
But it's not a false equivalency, my schismatic friend.
1. A reddit atheist uses tactics which might be called blitzkrieg in order to cement his argument (in most cases, quoting many hundreds of assorted texts in order to bog down his interlocutor).
2. You have utilized a multitude of assorted sources in order to deter your interlocutor, myself, from responding to each (or any one in particular) in detail.
3. You have relied on translations and interpretations of these particular sources which would be alien to the person you were speaking with.
4. A reddit atheist usually uses archaic translations and/or uncommon sources in order to further alienate the interlocutor from the material in question.

You are the functional equivalent to a reddit atheist.

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>>1615317
1. You have been making plenty of unsubstantiated claims.
2. You have been given a multitude of verifiable quotes from Church Fathers and historians which contradict the claims which you have pulled out of your butt.
3. You have been whining about the quantity of information which has been provided to you.
4. You are now embarrassingly vomiting buzzwords while still refusing to address the information which has been provided to you. (PS: "muh out of context" doesn't count)

You are amusing, my schismatic friend.

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I'm not even a particularly religious man, but this thread...

>hardcore atheists ffs

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>>1615626
>wrong pic