How close do the modern neo-pagan movements get to the actual

>>1546453
If we knew exactly, then the number of differences would be zero (probably) and because we do not know, the number of differences is non-zero (definitely).

>>1546453
A lot of it is LARPing but at the core it is a genuine attempt to recreate pre-Christian European religions.

>>1546453
its a revived form of spirituality, as many of the followers feel like they cant connect to god by going to church but rather they feel they can create a legitimate connection by praying to things that god created.

>>1546453

About the same as people who talk about doing the 'paleo diet' are.

Depends on which religion

I'm most familiar with the Celtic religion through my anthropology work and I can honestly say I don't think there are any genuine Celtic Neo-Pagans. Anyone who claims to be one is probably lying or is just some rebellious teenager. We just don't have enough information about the religion to inspire belief, in my opinion.

>>1546844
>Celtic religion
Do you have a bibliography, or at least a text to recommend on the subject, possibly something that came in the 2000s with the latest archaeology?

All I have is the Encyclopedia of Celtic Mythology and Folklore.

There is a ton of crap out there by clowns disguised as scholars on this, it's a pain in the ass.

As a practicing neo-pagan, not very close at all. Between the practicality of doing all of it, how many rituals are based on a location far away or impossible to get to, and the massive dearth of information we have after christians burned everything? It's next to impossible to get anything even close to accurate.
I've always found the chillest groups were the ones trying to keep the old rituals alive through modernization. It's not like they didn't change based on practicality then, no reason not to now,

>>1546495

Recreation them based on what though? I could genuinely want to recreate the fashion and clothing of the ancient people of Doggerland, but it's always going to be memes just flat out making it up, as there are 0 sources.

>>1546453
Are they sacrificing children/people (willing or slaves)/animals?

>>1546907
Examples of modernisation?

>>1546922
>sacrificing children/people (willing or slaves)
>christian propaganda

>>1546453
>muh actual paganism
What "actual" paganism would that be? Do you really think Hellenic Religion in 4th century AD was same as Hellnic Religion in Hellenistic Era? Or that being same in the Classical Era?

Religions change, you might say that there is no strict line of continuity, but to pretend that religions stay one and same is abusrd

The largest pagan religion is Roman Catholicism

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>>1546930

>archaeological evidence is christian propaganda

>>1546944
muslim pls

>>1546923
The most obvious example I can come up with are the ways each group handles animal sacrifice. I've seen people give offerings of alcohol, plates of prepared food that would have been eaten before or afterwards, all sorts of variations. Most groups have their own variations for that sort of thing,

>>1546935
>to pretend that religions stay one and same is abusrd
I don't think they will everl look at the history Hinduism

As if freedom of dogma, constant reinterpretation, and even syncretism FFS

>>1546947
But the scholars are divided on whether it was sacrifice or an execution, historical sources come from the enemies of the Celts, maybe they just executed a heretic as the christians did

I wonder if, two millennia in the future, archaeologists will think christians commited human sacrifices - other than catholics because that's what happens with the eucharist and the real presence

>>1546959
*I don't think they will ever look at the history of Hinduism

*As if freedom of dogma, constant reinterpretation, and even syncretism weren't important, even defining features of paganism more than polytheism itself FFS

>>1546816
>" cant connect to god by going to church but rather they feel they can create a legitimate connection by praying to things that god created."
>pagan

What didn't you quite understand about the word "pagan" or do you think that's just another form of abrahamic belief?

>>1546453
Pretty darn close, but still it's missing a lot of pieces since we cant go back in time to talk to those people in history practicing it and finding out all missing pieces and traditions.

But atleast here, thanks to this country's people for maintaining our culture even after christian bishops converting people forcefully most people kept practicing paganism secretly and we still have a strong bond even in the current majority of the people to the old traditions.

>>1546453
Lithuanian here.
The whole movement here basically consists of like two folk tales, a handful of songs and some fantasy books written during the Interwar.
And that's just for the peasant side of paganism. The warriors thoroughly christianized themselves, and since nobody was fucking literate then, their old faith were pretty much gone.
They know less about their beliefs than the average grandma does about Catholic theology.

>>1546856
I feel you mane
>came in the 2000s
Honestly there's not a tremendous amount of work being done on it right now, there's kind of an attitude in the field of "this is pretty much the most we're ever going to know"

In terms of any recent scholarship you might want to look at the works of Barry Cunliffe and Ronald Hutton. Some of their more recent books are just consolidations of their earlier work but it's still worth a read if you're interested in the subject.

And yeah you have no idea how right you are about people masquerading as scholars. Half the seminars I've been to are just smelly crackpot hippies raving about "oh duuuuude Ireland wasn't Christianized until the 1400s the Catholic church covered it all up brooooo" and "hey let's all go wear bedsheets and prostrate in front of rocks heheheh that'll be provocative christians are gonna get sooo mad"

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>>1546907
What makes me butthurt about "pagans" is that they never seem to bother about the actual theological background of their idols of preference.

They never dig up Epicur or the ancient greeks and romans who wrote plenthy about religion.
Ive never seen one backing up or expanding on what we know about the polytheist apology of Celsus.
Ive never seen them bother making greater comparisons between hinduism and european mythology, trying to branch of a profound and defensible religion though a european lense.
No, they dont do much of that or try to construct a reasonable explanation why worshipping like that is a probable way to truth, they rather pick first what is cool, "spiritual" and bagan and then maaaaybe bother to add some flimsy justification to it later on when they get asked about what the fuck they are doing with their lifes.

I want my 20th century pagans like Hielscher back.

>>1547274
I once had it explained to me that most neo-pagans want some kind of religion, but they don't want to change themselves or their worldview, so they treat the religion like it has no obligations

>>1547253
I found Pagan Britain by Hutton and this looks fantastic as well as recent, thanks matey.

>And yeah you have no idea how right you are about people masquerading as scholars. Half the seminars I've been to are just smelly crackpot hippies raving about "oh duuuuude Ireland wasn't Christianized until the 1400s the Catholic church covered it all up brooooo" and "hey let's all go wear bedsheets and prostrate in front of rocks heheheh that'll be provocative christians are gonna get sooo mad"
The study of neopaganism and Celtic revival(ism) as an anthropological and cultural phenomenon is a field of its own, and I'm glad I'm going to read a book by one who also wrote on the topic, the seminal Triumph of the Moon.

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>>1547274

>LARPing

Please stop. This term has become utterly meaningless. Muslims LARP as Muhammed, many Christians LARP as Jesus, buddhist monks LARP as the Buddha and orthodox Jews LARP as their ancestors.

If by 'LARPing', you mean 'doing things that people used to do millennia ago', then you LARP as a Roman every time you sit down to have dinner, as pic related has been around for that long

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>>1546453
>How close do the modern neo-judaic aka christian movements get to the actual ancient religions that they're trying to restore?
I don't know, pretty close?

How close do modern christians get to the religion they're trying to recreate?
>Catholicism and Orthodoxy
Call no man father or master
Keep the sabbath
Don't worship graven images... Hmmm...
>Protestantism
No sola fide doctrine found among the church fathers
Faith alone explicitly rejected by the bible... Really makes you think.

Religions evolve. It is not possible or desirable to recreate a religion exactly as it was thousands of years ago, even if there were an unbroken line of sucession. Do you think modern Roman priests would be reading the future from the bowls of birds if the religion had remained? No. What matters is the spirit not pedantic minutiae.

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Imagine the apostle Peter walking around in these clothes in ancient Judaea...
>ice-cream hat
>dragon scepter
>golden medals sporting graven images
Nevermind sitting on a golden throne. Yeah Christians recreate their religion with soooo much accuracy...

>>1547673
Don't see what your posts have to do with pagan revivalism, tbqh.
Keep your butthurt contained in the christian threads.

We'll never truly know the spiritual mindset of those who've lived before Christianity/Islam, their way of life was eradicated so thoroughly.

>>1547677
I'm pointing out the hypocrisy of christardians in calling pagan larpers. Of course you wouldn't see the relation because it would require having more than two neurons.

>>1547694
kek the difference is catholic and orthodox churches have a continuous lineage that goes back to the apostles whereas neopagans literally just have to make shit up as they go

>>1547680
There's still Finnish (Okay, they're probably closer to the Saami, but whatever) Pagans around in that North West chunk of Russia. They sacrificed a horse in order to either stop or help Napoleon, I can't remember which.

Likewise, Zoroastrianism and Hinduism are still around, along with other pagan religions all across Asia and Oceania. These offer similarities to how European pagans would have thought. Of course, we can never truly know what they would have thought short of a time machine. But that doesn't really matter in the slightest because the neo-pagan groups that aren't garbage adapt with the times. Do we know everything they (Germanic/Hellenic neopagans) did? No, and it's not necessary for us to. The contracts with the gods can be remade, rituals can be created, etc etc etc.

>>1547717
>continuous lineage

And? Our lineage from most Greek philosophers was cut off for quite a while, that doesn't bother anyone in philosophy

>>1547717
>>1547662

>>1547733
I'm not so much fan of paganism as I am of platonism. I'd be all for reviving the platonic academy like Ficino did in the renaissance.
>B-but my continuous bs lineage
Freemasons claim to have a continuous lineage going back to Crusaders, Solomon, Egypt... They are at least as credible as the christard ones, meaning, very little.

The one with all the cute slavic girls is based on a literary forgery :(

>>1547819
The bible is a literary forgery.

>>1547828
THIS THIS THIS

+9001

Depends on the pagan religion.

>>1546453

they dont seem to understand what they are recreating, they think by copying the form they will reproduce the content

>>1548002
All we know is the form. That was all that was written down. The hope is that following the form will reproduce the content, or at least similar spiritual feelings.

>>1546907
>christians burned everything
Well memed my friend. More seriously, how do you expect anyone to burn texts snowniggers could not have written ?

>>1548570
Greco-Romans wrote down quite a bit, and no small amount of what they wrote down was burned by christard fanatics.

>>1546453
Does Zoroastrianism count as neo-pagan? Or pagan at all?

Friendly reminder that unless you practice human sacrifice, you're larping

>>1548658
Modern Zoroastrianism is certainly neo-something, pretty sure the current form of the religion was laid down less than 1000 years ago.
Can monotheism be pagan? Sure why not.

>>1547253
Not to sound like one of those bros, wasn't Ireland not full Christianized for a long time? IIRC Irish lawcodes allowed druids some special power a good while longer than you'd expect (either until the 800s or the 8th century-- I can only remember the 8 part), and then you have the pagan Norse showing up. That being said, I wouldn't argue that paganism was a very strong force after the close of the 5th century, only that it was still around.

t. medieval studies undergrad

>>1548665
Are you going to kill a witch on sight?

>>1548690

Zoroastrians are dualists not monotheists. Although by the time Christianity spread, most educated Greco-Romans were monotheists anyway, seeing the traditional gods as something like "Angels" of the greater, unknown and unknowable, Prime Mover.

>>1549480

Irish paganism still exists in the form of belief in Faeries and in many of the superstitions of rural Irish, most notably in the Gaelteach.

>>1547662
>>1547720
This
Christian also started from Greek LARPer so why neo-pagan can't?

>>1548665

Firstly, when it comes to religion, there is literally no difference between LARPing and doing it "for real". Secondly, human sacrifice died out as a practise long before the rise of Christianity. If ancient pagans didn't think it was necessary or moral anymore, there's no reason for modern pagans to have a different opinion.

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>>1546453
They are most likely rather different, but most don't think that's a big problem. I mean Norse paganism in 1000 bce vs Norse paganism 1000 ce was also most likely rather different from each other. That's what happens when there is no real "holy book" and most info is only kept through the Oral tradition. Modern pagans in general are not to concerned about making sure that all believe the same thing nor do they resist change to intensely and are willing to discard or update beliefs.

>>1546453
People who believe in a religion for reasons other than "I think it's true" are dumb. End of story.

I can respect Christian theologians. They cared so much about what was actually true, that they made huge inroads in purely secular fields like logic and science, that we can all benefit from.

I can't respect people who think religion is just fun and games. They're more disrespectful than New Atheists. New Atheists have the outstanding virtue of caring about truth.

>>1549921
>implying truth has any inherent value

Spooky.

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>>1549934
This.

Truth is overrated.

>>1549480
It's been a while, but I focused on early medieval Irish religious history during my history degree. If I remember right, the Druids are still kicking around in the 7th century but it's more of a ceremonial position and they don't have any clerical followers, though they might still be local respected figures or important people at court, and they disappear soon after that.

As far as we know a lot of the Vikings who settled in Ireland were actually Christians already. The idea that they were all bloodthirsty Pagan brutes comes from the Ua Briain dynasty and their attempts to portray the Norse as the national arch enemies of Ireland. Obviously they weren't all Christians but probably more than most people think.

Ireland didn't become 100% Christian overnight but a lot of these Neopagan and Wiccan types genuinely believe that Ireland was majority Pagan until the early modern era. If they're part of the Irish diaspora in places like America or Australia some of them even like to claim that the Normans or the English forced Christianity on the Irish.

>>1549934
"Value" is a concept that takes place within a language-game. If you have a language-game, you seek truth. End of story.

If you're a mind, you either care about truth, or you deny what you are. The problem with postmodernism isn't that it's dangerous, the problem is that it's impossible.

>>1549952

Truth is inaccessible. Worse, there is no way to determine between competing truth claims, except in as much as they make empirical claims. Even if it is the case that absolute, objective truth exists, the fact that we can never know means we have no choice but to behave as tho it doesn't, and that "truth" is intrinsic tied into the frame of reference of the truthee.

>>1549970
>Even if it is the case that absolute, objective truth exists, the fact that we can never know
Hold on right there.

Are you saying that just because we can't directly access all truth, it follows that you can just choose beliefs at random, or on a political or cultural whim?

Is a "reconstructed" Pagan religion explicitly made up by LARPers really as rationally appealing as a minimalist view like atheism or deism?

You gave up too soon, for self-serving reasons.

>>1549980
>Are you saying that just because we can't directly access all truth, it follows that you can just choose beliefs at random, or on a political or cultural whim?

At random? Certainly not. These things come from the culture you are familiar with. You treat certain concepts as "true" and other as false because that's how it worked out for the culture you belong to.

>Is a "reconstructed" Pagan religion explicitly made up by LARPers really as rationally appealing as a minimalist view like atheism or deism?

Depends what you're looking for. Most neopagans want the kind of racio-cultural identity they see non-whites and their own ancestors as having, and don't find it in deracinated creeds like Christianity.

>You gave up too soon, for self-serving reasons

I'm not a pagan of any kind, I don't know whether I believe in god or not but I'm pretty certain religion is superstition.

>>1546453
They would be much closer to the real thing if they visited actual pagan places in India and Russia. Reading books and watching Harry Potter won't get you far lol

>>1546930
>what are big bodies

>>1547277
So like Higgins the Heathen in Chesterton's "A Song of Strange Aesthetic?"

Not really close. Neo-paganism springs from several sources, one is new age faggotry which is basically dipshit bullshit, other are neonazis who want to be the edgiest neonazis around, there may be some recreationists etc. etc. etc.

The problem however is that outside of few folk traditions and parts of mythology that got preserved(in fact it was preserved quite well in majority of situations) we have no sources for how did paganism in various forms looked like in the past. So all the rituals etc. etc. are often made up.

>>1547488
>doing things that people used to do millennia ago
But youre not doing it.
You are aping it.

>>1551018
>So all the rituals etc. etc. are often made up.
Counter-intuitively, this makes them authentic.

>>1551086
Authentic but not close to the religions they're trying to restore, which is OP's question.

>>1551086
>>1551112
They're replicas or attempts at revitalizing older religions. The problem is NOTHING survived the onslaught of Christianity unscathed in mainland Europe. There's some remnants of knowledge left even to this day but it's buried in traditions or still hidden away in old libraries. And the early Christians had to give into demands from pagan kings in order for them to join Christendom, but by and large we've lost a ton of what made the old pagan beliefs.

>>1551146
>The problem is NOTHING survived the onslaught of Christianity unscathed in mainland Europe
That's obvious.

The basis for reconstruction is the work of folklorists, since folklore is basically all that remained from pagan beliefs.

>>1551161
Which will take a long time to sort out.

I mostly pity neo-pagans because they have no real traditions and patchwork a system of beliefs from long dead and inaccurate sources.

I mean even those Africans sent across the sea and forced to Christianity by sword and slavery could even retain their practices. More than anything else I see Europeans at the time of christianization to be weak, but my pity comes from larpers not realizing that.

MUH ODIN WODDEN GOD STRONK

>>1551223
It's easier to rebuild than you think. I mean the days of the week have Norse gods names in them. It's just taking a long time to rebuild and new age faggots are screwing things up. The fucking hippies.

>>1551234
That is when you're wrong on many levels.

>>1551250
Then show me. I'm more than willing to read sources.

>>1551255
I stated that the available sources for European paganism, the basis of neo-paganism are incomplete. That's not something that needs to be sourced, that literally looking at the records produced by a people with only limited and/or secondary knowledge of continental European traditions save of course for greco-roman state paganism markedly different than the practices of common folk without the continuation of temple usage, sacrifice and daily rites of common people.

You can't say you're reviving a faith without the basics, you can create a faith using scant sources and fill the rest like asatru has done

>>1551282
Ah okay. That makes sense.

>>1550993
>what are executions
>what is lack of scholarly consensus