Why do most people hold a progressive/whiggish/linear view of

yeah most of those people don't understand shit, you can bring up rome falling and technology being spayed while culture radically changed in a non linear way but they will continue to push this "progress" narrative, that we are all destined to globalize into one race, culture, and atheistic, stateless society that will invent space travel to transcend the cosmos.

they unironically think communism is the logical conclusion to humanity

>>1491042
>Why do most people hold a progressive/whiggish/linear view of history?

It's comforting to think that your generation is the epitome of human progress and that you're an improvement over your forefathers. It's also very, very easy go be ignorant about the past. Can't stand whig history, myself.

>>1491042
>more alienated, overstimulated, and mentally stressed than ever before?
lovely memes

what are you gonna do, counter-revolution agriculture? I like living in a stable country that isn't actively oppressing anyone.

Deterministic materialism is a load of shit. Look at Saudi Arabia or UAE, technologically extremely modern and developed but socially they're still in the middle ages.

>>1491084
>Can't stand whig history, myself.

No one but retards can.

Even paying attention in a high school history class ought to tip you off to what bullshit it is.

>>1491087
>I like living in a stable country that isn't actively oppressing anyone.

So which era are you posting from? Because it's certainly not from the present.

When people say "it's [current year]" are they actually declaring their lot with Whig historiography? Can somebody not mean, for example; "society has had the capacity to fix this problem for some time and yet has neglected to do so" "this is inconsistent with my perception of the zeitgeist", etc; without implying that history is a progressive ascent toward the present?

>>1491093
is this where you tell me about the white genocide being perpetuated by the jews

>>1491087
Keep in mind, anon, that this isn't just about you. Are people living in more marginalized nations happier under the global system than they would have been a thousand years ago? I can't imagine laboring for an international corporation to supply the average citizen of the West, Japan, or South Korea with gadgets is any more fulfilling than subsistence farming.

>>1491093
BLACK LIVES MATTER

>>1491098
most times ive seen it was with shit that dosent make sense with

>i dont believe marriage is defined with two of the same sex
>oh come on its the current year

>i appointed a muslim to the parliment
>why
>oh come on its the current year

>>1491098
It's 2016. Why haven't all the jews been gassed yet?

>>1491098
The fact that they use the current year in their statement implies that they think 2016 is more advanced than say, 2003. It is a very linear way of thinking and very much based in the belief that things naturally get better as time passes. Which is why they also say stuff like "don't be on the wrong side of history" as though history is some independent force for change and not made up of the contingent decisions of individuals based on a variety of factors.

>>1491098
Well just because technology progresses linearly, Whiggos and Marxtards believe ideology and knowledge progresses the same way.

>>1491098
they mean "your memes are old"

it's a reply you might give to someone linking to NGGYU. /pol/ just doesn't have the awareness to consider that someone might find a serious appeal against "degeneracy" funny.

I wish people would say monotonic instead of linear since no one argues that the rate of societal/cultural progress is constant.

t. math sperg

>>1491042
Linear views of history became dominant with the rise of Christianity.

>>1491042
Yes most people just assume it's a linear progression, except the medieval period which is obviously a backwards period both technologically and culturally due to Christianity right?

What's truly sad is "it's X year, you're on the wrong side of history, you've got dated thinking" is seriously being used as an argument in of itself now. People were trying to pull that bullshit with trying to justify socialism being the right choice in a thread on here yesterday.

>>1491135
The irony is they are stuck in a nearly 200 year old ideology, which was thoroughly ripped to pieces by academics nearly 100 years ago.

>>1491174
Those same people are the same ones on here that say "le /pol/ needs to leave XD." Honestly they're just as bad as /pol/, you can't agree with any far-right ideology or leader without being called a stormfag.

>societal/cultural progress

Holy shit you insane motherfucker, it's about time someone pointed out that you're straight up retarded. Cultural progress has advanced light years in tandem with technological progress - just because you're ostracized for calling people nigger doesn't mean the world is a worse place to live.

Meanwhile, "alienation, overstimulation, and mental stress" are symptoms of modern Western society, but they are not synonymous with it. It's just what was pointed out earlier in this thread: "society has had the capacity to fix this problem for some time and yet has neglected to do so." The minute you agitate for changes in capitalism and your respective state apparatus is the minute you will be helping to fix the problem. "Muh Whig strawmen" is not about solutions, you just want to bitch about people just as politically, socially, and intellectually inactive as you.

>>1491042
It's just the extension of the absurd notion of "progress" essentially all mainstream folks fall into, not just left-liberals.

Remember kids, if you believe African societies are "less progressed" than the West, you are behaving identically to politicians who choose the makeup of their cabinet based on the year.

>>1491205
>Cultural progress has advanced light years in tandem with technological progress

Is that why Islam is dominating the West and will be in charge within the next century?

>>1491213
t. retard

>>1491205
Tumblr needs to leave

>>1491212
>Remember kids, if you believe African societies are "less progressed" than the West, you are behaving identically to politicians who choose the makeup of their cabinet based on the year.

Kind of true 2bh. Stormfags also fall into the trap of thinking technology and economic development = progress and civilization.

>>1491151
Blame Petrarch and his cycles of rebirth desu senpai

>>1491098
I don't see how it can mean anything but the progressive/Whig view. If people think something is a social problem, and they say, "It's 20XX", that implies that they think society should naturally have addressed this problem by now in the move towards a more perfect society. It doesn't really imply, "This is my view of the zeitgeist", because who says something like "It's 2016, we should have gay marriage by now", but would then beokay with gay marriage ending in the event that the zeitgeist changes, as though it were a fashion? No one, which is why the "It's [current year]" arguments imply that history is building to a specific point.

>>1491219
Correct. The only major difference is that right-liberals tend to be conservative. They like the way things are going or the way things recently were. Their perfect world is usually somewhere between 1860 and 1960.

Left-liberals desire a world like ours, but more equal in ways that have not yet been achieved. They believe a perfect world is right on the horizon, at least until a new cause comes around.

>>1491218
What a waste of post. What a waste of a life.

>>1491111(checked)
i have nothing to contribute to this threads, just wanted to check your quads

sorry

>>1491237
Today's left-liberal is tomorrow's right-liberal

>>1491042
The linear progressive historical model is used less as a practical view of history and more as a ideal to strive for. At least that's what I've observed.

>>1491301
Oh absolutely. I'd argue that Trump's Republican Party is driven by revanchism for the recent past. Their platform is just a cry of return to the mores, demographics, and legal-institutional conditions of the Nixon years.

>>1491042
Does anyone else go through phases where they are depressed, intelligent, and see what is coming, and then emerge from the phase, become slightly more dull, and never think about it?

I really think that my depressed self is more insightful about the global future. But my body can't handle it and I snap back.

I wonder if this is what it is like before a World War. The truth is quite clear, but nobody can hold it in their heads because it's such a void of horror.

>>1491400
Why the fuck do people keep saying the WW3 is coming when we don't even know against whom?

>>1491432
not saying its coming but its pretty clear the tensions are higher between russia and us more so then the fall of ussr

>>1491467
There's a higher chance of the US being in an armed conflict with the PRC than with the USSR desu

>>1491432
I'm not sure if it's a "World War". What I'm saying is, many different factors are currently steadily moving towards "horror", and there is absolutely nothing stopping them.

>>1491488
I have no idea why people think this, if anything shit seems to be improving. The only worrying thing are the constant sandnigger attacks but those goatfucker can't and won't trigger WW3, they are not that important.

>>1491042
>>1491042
we have monuments dedicated everywhere to 'The Great War', demarcated in name from all other wars before based on how stupendous it was. Not only that, we had a sequel that was to be bigger and better.

We saw the coalescing of all these various historical timelines of independent nations (used loosely as nationalism itself means fuck all) where it took the unfettered expression of mans wanton desires to just be cunts before we started the general agreement that perhaps our interests are best served through mitigated peace.

There are still millions of people that were alive during this period, where for them 1950 was "the current year", and if they were to look into the past with a 100 years lens, they could pull historical examples to make salient points about current climates and the effect of those upon the human psyche/well being.

How long do we have to measure the effect of direct history, where we can look and say "oh because of x event, y conditions result."? At what point do we look back at World War Two, and see it is another European skirmish? the figurehead of the "enemy" has transcended popular culture, somewhat at odds with the prerogative of history to recall empirically, as "Hitler" is becoming less associated with the man behind the ghastly horrors of a war, as it is becoming a self-perpetuating notion of what is "bad" or "evil". When the generation dies out, and with it, the cultural and social attitudes that were fostered by both the time preceding World War Two and following it, do we shift to a new epoch determined by the post World War Two period and that period of history that forms from now, until 2045, or do we subsist in the mindset determined by our present milieu with minor instances of progressive attitudes prevailing and causing a general change?

>>1491498
>The only worrying thing are the constant sandnigger attacks but those goatfucker can't and won't trigger WW3, they are not that important.

No you dummy. Nobody cares about countries anymore. Countries are just run by bland bureaucrats who don't believe anything except "let's not go overboard".

The danger is the people. Millions of savvy people with free time to construct an obsessive worldview and discuss it online. Every event in the news is taken as evidence for one side or the other. Total polarisation, every country split in half.

It's all memes until it isn't.

>>1491506
>the biggest threat is shitposting

lol okay

>>1491512
It literally is.

Do you remember when /pol/ posting was a thing for a containment board? Checked Youtube comments lately? Checked Reddit? Do you think all of those people are paper tigers?

>>1491516
Why would youtube comments of all things signal the apocalypse? And no I don't read youtube comments as a rule because I'm not a retard (unlike you).

>>1491505
Also, your comment on technology is garbage. Technology is everything - every expressive act that involves some
Tangible manipulation of nature constitutes a technological enterprise. Technology cannot progress as it must necessarily already exist, it is the humans attempt to understand technology that progresses.

Humans can advance correlative to technology, and measure their success based upon their manipulation of the environment and the results it produces. technology is both stagnant, being all that presently discovered, and fluid, being all that yet to be discovered.

I don't really have a point actually...

>>1491522
>And no I don't read youtube comments as a rule because I'm not a retard (unlike you).
That's exactly how this functions. You know many people think only a retard would go on 4chan. Coupled with social isolation, we have the perfect recipe for people to not know anything about each other, and assume that they all have the "right" opinions.

>>1491215
Do ad hominems count as proper arguments yet? I wish so.

>>1491432
Tensions are rising between European states. Russia really wants to posit itself as the second-place power, and its continued aggression could cause the US to retaliate.

China is also a sleeping dragon.

>>1491467
Lmao what a fucking mistake the destruction of the USSR was

Nationalist regimes are always more likely to cause destabilizing wars

>>1491042
>i want to be a plebiserf in technotheofuedalism

>>1491538
>between European states

Which ones?

>>1491087
>I like living in a stable country that isn't actively oppressing anyone.

Kill yourself white male.

>>1491505
>>1491525
Work on your prose.

>>1491498
Terrorism is a fucking distraction. It's scary when a Muslim kills ten people in some train station, but not actually threatening to state security.

Even in 2001, the number of Americans killed by terrorism was lower than the number of Americans killed in robberies. And both these together are dwarfed by automotive death.

Demographic shift in Europe is more worrisome from the perspective of Western governments, and I say this as a leftist.

>>1491548
The German-led order and detractors from the right and the left. Britain, Greece, Spain. We'll see how things change as non-liberal parties emerge in these stares and others.

>>1491594
tips - I am poor at expressing thought.

>>1491598
>A is a problem and B is a bigger problem, therefore A is not a problem

>>1491042
>but has quality of life and relationships improved for the average person
looking at crime rates, I'd immediately say yes

>>1491645
Given our political climate, you'd think A was a global crisis and B a minor disturbance

The most valuable resource for the improvement of mankind is knowledge, which is something we can never lose and will always accumulate more of.

For that reason, looking at the long-term, mankind as a whole will always improve their lot, and the linear view must necessarily be correct.

>>1491645
Me stubbing my fucking toe is a problem but you don't see it taking up 50% of the headlines in the states.

>>1491213
There are literally no islamist political leaders in teh West, at all. You are clearly a retard.

>>1491670
you probably would if ISIS took credit for it.

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>>1491658
>which is something we can never lose and will always accumulate more of.

>>1491657
>>1491670
explain how a clearly conspired terrorist attack isn't news worthy

>>1491205
>>1491658
Rise of functional illiteracy

It's the current year why are you still able to read I mean come on

>>1491698
It may be, but in broadcasting it to the world you are also giving the terrorist what he desires more than anything; attention.

Compare it to school shootings in the US; the number and brutality of those also increased remarkably after the media went in a frenzy over Columbine.

>>1491710
> rise of

Paedagogy and teaching is also an example of the sort of things that we, in the long term, improve.

There may be blibs along the way when politicians decide to gut the school system to win easy votes, but in the long run, even that should be corrected.

>>1491723
Meanwhile books collect dust, newspapers disappear, and social media are becoming all that people read

>>1491720
well no shit media is always gunna milk the shit out of stories for ratings. it does not mean the average person dosent get the right to see that people are attacking in the name of alien ideals that are incompatible with his way of life

>>1491042
Human life is in average the best it's ever been. There is no other time in history that it was better.

>>1491728
are they really, though?

I'm not sure the population en bloc is less informed than they were 50 or 100 years ago.

But I would be worried that the media as a whole is focusing too much on the wrong thing, giving people a skewered view of the world, reality isn't 95% terrorism, Donald Trump and Pokemon Go

>>1491729
I fully believe that people have a right to know these things, but seriously, terrorism takes up what, 40% of the newsstream these days?

How can such a high number possibly be justified, especially considering how unlikely a terrorist attack actually is.

And I must repeat, the media coverage is precisely what the terrorist wants, why give it to him? To inform people? How exactly is your average man on the street possibly supposed to operationalize the knowledge that in a world of 8 billion people, a few hundred are conspiring to kill im in a brutal and sudden fashion for abstract reasons?

>>1491735
>reality isn't 95% terrorism, Donald Trump and Pokemon Go
How dare you question what Big Brother gives you, you disobedient regressive antirevolutionary, can't you see it's the current year?

>>1491739
The terrorists are practically in bed with the media. They have the common goal of dividing people. it Nurtures more views and ratings for media and serves theological purposes for the jihadist attention whores. either way i believe that it should get more attention proportionally. saying that fucking air conditioning is more dangerous than isis makes you look like a faggot. And jihadists poring into the country and scaring people into converting while they breed like rabbits can certainly threaten way of life more then an air conditioner or car can.

>>1491658
Except for all of those times when we did lose knowledge, you dumbass.

>>1491778
Unlikely to happen unless the world gets completely nuked.

>>1491530
You're delusional. Is NATO going to break up because you don't have any friends?

>>1491802
You mean like the library at Alexandria?

>>1491752
> jihadists poring into this country, converting people and breeding like rabbits

This sort of paranoia is another reason I think we have talked a little too much about terrorism.

>>1491778
Name one

>>1491819
that sort of event couldn't really be replicated, since information tends to be stored on multiple on-and-off-premise servers these days, as well as shared among countless people.

>>1491823
For one there are tons of historical records and documents that that got burned in buildings, intentionally destroyed, or just straight up lost.

>>1491832
Yes but many of them have been relocated, and at the same time, our methods of storage have evolved considerably since then, see >>1491825

>mfw Whig retards on /his/ have to explain to chronically malnourished children who get beaten and raped by their parents that life is totally awesome now and there's nothing to worry about

>>1491835
I'm sure even the biggest most whiggest retard would be able to tell you that the bad things going on in the world today aren't isolated to today and in most cases were a lot worse before.

>>1491823
Concrete
Linear perspective
unaltered literature that the church destroyed outright or made it fit their narrative
Numerous historical records

>>1491897
see
>>1491834

>>1491841
I guess some years are more current than others

>>1491042
In the western world at least, people are actually nice, like the average person is pleasant and nice and you'll get along amicably with them.

That might seem like nothing, so what right? But it's actually very different to the past.

If you read any sort of biography or account of life in the past, hell even 50 years ago, pretty much everyone was a straight up asshole to your face. Abuse in childhood was extremely common, abuse and shitty treatment by other people was extremely common. It was common to be a customer in a shop and be abused and insulted by the owner, how the tables have turned on that. It probably goes a long way to explain why everybody was so fucked up and did such fucked up things in the past that are much less common today, but i stress, in the west. The reason is probably our coddled upbringings and huge focus on being a good person who does the right thing, it's especially prominent in children cartoons.

I say in the west, because i have lived in some developing countries, among the local people, and they are still living, in a cultural sense, metaphorically speaking, in the past. Everyone is an asshole, shopkeepers are assholes, bullying continues well into adulthood past school, pretty much every child faced childhood abuse, and like 75% of the women had sexual abuse. Families are dominating but uncaring, cold and controlling. This just fucks people up, completely, people from developing countries have way more mental problems than westerners, westerners might seem like they're fucked up with the therapy and depression, sure, but it's rare for us to be abused now, or bullied in adulthood, or so fucked up we repeat it and end up doing fucked up shit.

Westerners do not know how good we have life. The reason we have stupid radical feminism and other bullshit whiny complainers is because it's human nature to continually try to improve the situation, but the situation is so fucking good there's nothing to fix so we make shit up.

>>1491934
there might be something to this. I'm always amazed when I'm watching tv shows, cartoons or reading books about the old days and seeing how rough people, especially children, are to one another.

>>1491752
>scaring people into converting
Sure thing, anon

>>1491823
not jihadists but muslims

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>>1491042
>Hurr people should not look at history via technological progress,
>Socio-Cultural progress = Important.
You're part of the cancer yourself. Any talk of "progress" is inimical to the study of history itself.

"Progress" implies some nebulous, predicted, future that multiple beliefs/political narratives push as an agenda. Christians have the Apocalypse while Marxists have eventual Communism.

The historian does not/should not care about this future since *it hasn't happened yet.* Ergo any talk of progress is not proper to history. Progress leads to guestimation, waving narratives over others and stressing that shit is important, and outright revisionism.

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Reminder that not even technology progresses linearly.

>>1492058
>"Progress" implies some nebulous, predicted, future that multiple beliefs/political narratives push as an agenda. Christians have the Apocalypse while Marxists have eventual Communism.
>The historian does not/should not care about this future since *it hasn't happened yet.* Ergo any talk of progress is not proper to history. Progress leads to guestimation, waving narratives over others and stressing that shit is important, and outright revisionism.
Thank you.

Fuck progress and the idolaters named after her.

>>1491538


The tension between the European states have always been there, it's just becoming more pronounced as the veneer of civility they've maintained erodes in the face of economic crisis and external political pressure; old rivalries and animosities created by two world wars will tear Europe apart.

>>1492058
>The historian does not/should not care about this future since *it hasn't happened yet.*
Wat. History is our lesson on how do plan the future.

Also why is everyone so against progress? Would you fucks still rather be in the stone age getting felt up by your uncle?

>>1492152
nah, the people of Europe have already had a taste of what a peaceful consumer goods-oriented lifestyle is like. They also know that dying for the lies of politicians isn't really worth it.

Now what we need to do is to stop dancing to the Americans' tune when it comes to Russia.

>>1492156
Historians are against progress *in history.*

Human History isn't some fucking scientific experiment where you can identify patterns and predict/hypothesize what happens in the future. History is the study of fucking history. Period. It may explain what the hell is going on in the present but that is about it.

It's like when people believe Kingdoms and Monarchs are "backward" If something happens to our society and they come back again, kek, republics and electoral democracies would be called backward. But to the historian, this is fucking nothing. To him, what happened was not backwardness/forwardness, but he'll just study what caused for shifts of government and leave it at that.

Hell, if anything, progressivism contributed to shitty situations in the world. Just look at nation-states and modern nationalism, which in essence is a European fucking phenomena. "Nationalists" around the globe mindlessly applied such models it to their own peoples without thinking of shit like "MY CONCEPTION OF NATION WAS DIFFERENT FROM YOURS, REEE" of their component cultural groups, which erstwhile Kingdoms and Empires managed to rule because the Monarchs just sold people security & prosperity, not nationalism.

>>1492156
>History is our lesson on how do plan the future.
Nobody planned the internet by reading our attempted reconstruction of the past based on the available evidence.

>Would you fucks still rather be in the stone age getting felt up by your uncle?
Tell that to NAMBLA and other "progressives."

Spooks pls go.

>>1492182
>Human History isn't some fucking scientific experiment where you can identify patterns and predict/hypothesize what happens in the future.
You have a very poor understanding of history then. All i ever see is the same thing repeated over and over and no one learning from it because no one knows their history. Just last year i was in a small Asian country where the president claimed dictatorial powers through a fake emergency. Hmm not like that's ever happened before has it? But no one there knew, because none of them were historically educated.

>History is the study of fucking history. Period. It may explain what the hell is going on in the present but that is about it.
You have to be dumb as fuck if you think it doesn't teach us valuable lessons about today. That's like living your entire life and never using the experiences of your life as a lesson about how to live in the present. History is the collective life of humanity.

There shouldn't be backwardsness and forwardsness in history, of course, but that has nothing to do with seeing how things played out in the past to see how we should do things differently today. This will probably lead you to claim that today is different, it's 2016, but then you'd be contradicting yourself.

I don't know if we should look at history as a case of progressive improvement, but it would be very hard to argue that life today for the majority of people is not vastly better than it was centuries ago.

>>1492220
valuable lessons is not the future, historians are not futurologists, futurologists are not historians

>>1492237
Politicians should be well versed in history, i guess that's my ultimate point.

Literally all great men have been well educated in history.

>>1491042
I'm actually trying to think of a time in the past few thousand years where people living in the civilized world looked back on the past as a superior rather than inferior time. The only period I can think of is the dark ages - when people longed for the idealized society they thought existed under the roman empire. This is of course Euro-centric because I haven't really studied far east history or others.

But to answer your question OP - yes, life has improved in pretty much every way since the 1830s. The things we complain about today are breathtakingly petty compared to what people complained about then such as posting from your iPhone a complaint about how poor you are - compared to the liklihood many of your children won't survive to adulthood.

You actually don't need to look to history to find examples of real hardship though. It exists in a lot of places throughout the world.

Things are pretty good right now.

>>1491205
How the fuck do you measure culture? This isn't Civ V

>>1492253
I wouldn't doubt for a second that most politicians are well versed in history because its inevitable repetition more often than not, favors the most powerful among them. For them, it's just a matter of figuring which repetition is most advantageous for their own goals.

>>1492156
Problem is, retard, sometimes you can go forward and sometimes you can regress, and you don't really know which is gonna happen

>>1491099
Is this where you tell me that a minority with a disproportionate representation in the areas of influence in the modern world that just so happen to have the same materialistic end don't have anything in common?

This counter "its da joos" meme needs to die, there is truth to jewish influence.

>>1492288
> not being an antisemite is now a meme

time for you to leave /pol/ and get some fresh air

>>1492268
>I'm actually trying to think of a time in the past few thousand years where people living in the civilized world looked back on the past as a superior rather than inferior time
Golden Age, Davidic-Solomonic reign, every mythology ever.

Whig current-yearism and Marxism are replicating, knowingly or not, Christian apocalypticism and millenarianism, which sees the Golden Age in the future, where honey and milk flow.

Alinsky was convinced that reforms can only go forward, I wonder what would he think of Hungary's new super-conservative constitution, outlawing abortion.

Looking at Iran and Turkey's successful reversing of secularization, the spectacular failure of the so-called "Arab" Spring, the two different governments in present Libya, the Wahhabist reformation is also fascinating.

"Progress" is sure doing a number on the Middle East.

>>1492268
>The movement combined sentimental patriotic interest in German folklore, local history and a "back-to-the-land" anti-urban populism with many parallels in the writings of William Morris. "In part this ideology was a revolt against modernity," A. J. Nicholls remarked.[5] The dream was for a self-sufficient life lived with a mystical relation to the land; it was a reaction to the cultural alienation of the Industrial revolution and the "progressive" liberalism of the later 19th century and its urbane materialist banality.

>In addition the völkisch movement, as it evolved, sometimes combined the arcane and esoteric aspects of folkloric occultism alongside "racial adoration" and, in some circles, a type of anti-Semitism linked to exclusionary ethnic nationalism. The ideas of völkisch movements also included anti-communist, anti-immigration, anti-capitalist and anti-Parliamentarian principles.

>Volkish philosophers advocated the return to medieval traditions and practices, to regress from modernity and reinstate the feudal system with a master-apprentice-based way of life.

>>>/pol/

>>1491673
>There are literally no islamist political leaders in teh West, at all. You are clearly a retard.

Yet.

>>1491934
>>1491952
Top Kek, literal babbies

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>societal/cultural progress

>>1491400
Me smart, me sad. Why no grill yet? All is stupid, I smart and sad cuz all but I is stupid. Sighhhhhhhh

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>>1491042
>history only happens in cycles maannnn, it's the same shit over and over!
>look at the Roman empire! they fell due to decadence just like our society since the same things happen dude
>technology doesn't mean things change man people have the same desires and fears like always bro
>all the statistics about increasing education and decreasing crime rates? those don't matter as much as how many friends I have
>people are more alienated and overstimulated than ever but also this happened in the past since history is cyclical
>fucking progress fags how dare you say things improve as time goes by!!

>>1491098
>society has had the capacity to fix this problem for some time and yet has neglected to do so
>this is inconsistent with my perception of the zeitgeist
That's what the vast majority of people mean by it. The average internet armchair philosopher is completely detached from normal society and can't see that.

>>1492829
>GDP is a useful or relevant measure of quality of life or societal progress throughout history

k lol

>>1492838
>GDP isn't useful to measure quality of life except quality of life is directly correlated to per capita GDP everywhere in the world
hmm

>I'm going to define societal progress in a nebulous way that suits me and is obviously not correlated to anything empirically measurable
okay...

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>>1492829
Was this "progress" thing not going on between the '72 and '92?

>>1492847
>societal progress
What is it?

>>1492847
>thinking quality of life is something you can quantify and "empirically measure"

lmao

>>1492886
>It's impossible to measure cultural progress and changes in quality of life
>But also they definitely can't be linear with time and technology because... reasons

rofl!

>>1492847
>quality of life
This is so fucking dumb. Have you ever considered that treating people like robots is exactly part of the problem?

People don't want a quality of life, they want meaning. Even luxury makes you suicidal without meaning.

>>1493262
anon quality of life means things like "not starving"

>>1493287
Does it mean things like "not dying"? Because they really need to work on that.

The most unsettling things about the human condition are the things we all share.

>>1491087
>lovely memes

How are they memes if they're true?

>>1492406
>just conform goy

Nice argument you piece of shit

>>1493294
>Does it mean things like "not dying"?
low quality of life certainly links to dying

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>>1491042
I think it can be more dangerous to hold a view of history that doesn't properly consider the impact of technological advancement on social progress. The fact that people can communicate with anyone in the world instantaneously while exchanging bits of each other's culture through vivid video is a huge gamechanger to the zeitgeist. People are drawn to sharing the most outrageous content amongst their ingroup which can lead to political opinions being galvanized at a much quicker rate. It's hard to make predictions about it now but what is the political scene going to be like in 40 years when the people in power and the majority of the voting populace is developing their views autodidactically through the internet?

Doesn't mean it's going to be 'positive' progress by any means but it's still in a sense cultural progress and it's significantly different than most of history so far.

>>1493505
>I think it can be more dangerous to hold a view of history that doesn't properly consider the impact of technological advancement on social degradation.

FTFY

>>1491116
Are you talking about that guy in Canada? He is a Sikh and even holds a patent on a type of gas mask that would retain functionality and wouldn't have to shave his beard.

>>1493521
The word progress doesn't necessarily exclude degradation if used as a verb

Also if you believe that it's all an extremely elaborate intentional plan orchestrated by powerful puppetmasters then it is most definitely 'progress' towards what they're aiming for

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To put it simply? Unprecedented Hedonism and ignorance due to misplaced feelings of historical superiority.


If that makes no sense i can explain if your interested enough.

>>1493560
>i can explain if your interested enough.

Lay it on me, my man.

>>1493560
explain

>>1491088
Ironic giving that the region was completely different socially in the middle ages.

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>>1491116
I don't see an issue with either of those things. Deal with it you shitty social conservative.

>>1491042
It's a narcissistic way of looking at the past.

>>1493603
The problem, you mongoloid, is that it's a retarded justification.

>why did you do x
>because it's the current year c'mon!

>>1493660
Maybe so, but why even bring it up if it's not an issue?

>>1493672
Because it's pure sophistry that shouldn't be left unchecked?
You want to be progressive? Fine. But at least justify your decisions with ACTUAL arguments, not a meme line

>>1493603
Not an argument.

>>1493772
>>1493683
Fair enough

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>>1493569
>>1493579
Ok, just for you two.

Consider a Roman citizen. Doubtless he would proclaim himself superior to the barbarians in the north. The Goth in his village gloats he has meaning over the TRULY barbaric celts...and so on.

Now lets head forward. 1900-2000. In this time, great advancements are made in every area.

Man from 1920: "sure my kids might die of polio but we have_____ now!"

Man from 1950: "sure we have no rights for blacks but look how women can vote!"

ultimately are values of what make our day and age so great is subjective. How do you think our grand-kids will view our age? they'll think the fact we died of cancer/aids was laughable if there as immature as some people are.

Also it never occurs to people that this golden age can just...end. Not to say on a apocalyptic level, yet to think we will ever, as one human race from every nation and continent, ascend the stars together, equally, is foolhardy to say the least.

Get back to me when we solved global poverty/food issues first. These things are bound to falter and when they do so too will social 'progression' as we see it. Yet it doesnt mean were doomed to be' back to the stone age'

What progressives hate to note is throughout history, people with there arrogance have always existed, only to A) be surpassed in advancement they couldn't imagine or, more likely, B) get BTFO and have there civilization and society destroyed/absorbed.

This is nothing to be saddned by howeer, there is however one sour note: the age we live in will never be replicated again when the downturn. However it will not be terrible, 1950s level of distribution, worst i promise.

Also africa and the middle east is predicted to be fucked forever, unless they invent a weather machine or magic sandwich making box for every household.

So in short, enjoy our age but dont for a second fool yourself into thinking its sustainable for all or expandable past our current state to other more unfortunate places in the world.

It's not an argument, of course, but it is a fair point. It's just lost on people the younger they are. If you're 20, saying "But it's 2016!" means nothing to you because you don't even remember the 90's. If you're 70 and you lived through something like Civil Rights and somebody says, "But it's 2016!" it makes more sense.

It's a fair point because "progress" is something that's expected of pretty much any society. History proves that we become more accepting of The Other, more empathetic and more in tune with the rest of the world as time goes on.

>>1491042
Technological progress directly contributes to increased well being, as well as scientific knowledge and economic expansion.

People who believe we are living in terrible times have never read the data.

>>1493893
>Get back to me when we solved global poverty/food issues first.
>Also africa and the middle east is predicted to be fucked forever

https://ourworldindata.org/world-poverty/

http://www.economist.com/news/briefing/21578643-world-has-astonishing-chance-take-billion-people-out-extreme-poverty-2030-not

http://priceonomics.com/extreme-poverty-has-dropped-in-half-since-1990/

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>>1493970

Sorry to sound pessimistic and i sure don't want to get you hot under the collar but have you noticed a theme to those links you've offered?

>Possible
>a chance
>its predicted
>one day
>in the near future

A tad Vague, isn't it?
These issues are not concluded, now, and i daresay ever. Don't get me wrong, its getting better but thats mostly down to superb logistics and vast legitimate charity. If that safety net were to go, that's a lot of death i should wager...although ill wager they'll be somewhat better off than pre-1980.

Oh and you forgot to give me anything that will save there shit environments so they can independently feed themselves.

Anyway, my point still stands.

>>1493895
>History proves that we become more accepting of The Other, more empathetic and more in tune with the rest of the world as time goes on.
Explain why gay sex was generally accepted in ancient Rome and Greece but nor during the late roman empire or during the middle ages.

>>1494015
Only one of them is about the future. The other two demonstrate that poverty has seen gargantuan reductions in recent history, including the past 20 years.

>>1491042
>Has quality of life and relationships improved for the average person
>Since 1830

Hell yes.

You know all that bullshit, about how awful capitalism is for the lower classes, that leftists quote from Marx. Well at the time it was actually true.

>>1494020
I'd tell you but they'll jump on me.

>>1491557
Did you guys notice that lefties use "oppress" like the genderfags use "rape"?

Opression= torture, murder, mass surveillance and a rigged justice system BEYOND the usual amount of corruption and cruelty that can be found within every institution.

>>1491042
Most people here are naive americans that think culture and technology works and evolves like it does in the civ games.

>>1494139
That post was obvious bait you dumb shit

>>1493970
But is that decrease in extreme poverty permanent or is it a bubble waiting to pop? Is it just a recovery from a pop that happened previously? And what about non-extreme poverty? Has it grown or decreased?

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>>1491205
>Cultural progress has advanced light years
Buttsecks and simple degeneracy, add insecure teenagers and muh feelings and you got
C U R R E N T Y E A R 2 0 1 6

>>1494271
This basically what snownigs said when they got conquered by Roma.

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>>1491506
Youre right, ive thought of this too. The world is becoming super polarized, but the question is what could happen?
We are all strangers in urban areas so our individual opinions dont matter, but if a spark was to evolve into a fire, half the population would be on the streets.
BLM, occupy wallstreet, gazi park(istanbul, ukraine etc

>>1491673
There are...
Not gonna link anything, but theres muslims in england and sweden as far as i know

>>1491934
Im from the mediterranian and as far as I know people where nicer before, before those small towns became "cities", relations and family were very important and people tend to trust each other, Western europe is pretty chill to actually, but when I see asians and how they act im horrified, theyre like robots " w.h.a.t i.s l.o.v.e"

While I wouldn't call myself progressive, as in ascribing to a view of history where things are bound to improve for everyone because "it's CURRENT YEAR", I would perhaps call myself a political progressive or some such.


Since there's no indication (and why should there be?) that people will live continuously better lives as time moves on, does that mean that no one should do anything to improve their lot in life, or that of any given group, simply because it's not guaranteed to happen? That's ridiculous. That kind of thinking would still have us living in caves.

Reactionaries and conservatives are retarded by definition, not for wanting to keep parts of a system that are tried and true (shoulders of giants and all that), but for wanting to limit peoples chances to improve their lives on their own, irregardless of whether it's bound to happen or not.

Really I just hate cyclical history "America is totally like the Roman Empire in the late fourth century, hurrrf"-retards and shitty meaningless analogies.

>>1494418
>irregardless

Pretentious pseudo-intellectual nu-male detected. Why are you even on the history board if you hate it so much?

>>1494418
>While I wouldn't call myself progressive, as in ascribing to a view of history where things are bound to improve for everyone because "it's CURRENT YEAR"
Don't huff memes kids

>>1494332
Could the reason why you "won't link anything" be because you're Making Shit Up(tm)? I'm Swedish and I can guarantee you that there are no political leaders in Sweden who are Muslim. MP's, sure, but no leaders of any party.

>>1494430
Why are you even reading if you hate words so much? I'm mostly here for the bantz 2bh, and the occasional interesting thread. This was actually one of them, at times.

>>1493970
>>1494232
I think it's also worth noting that by the standards those links use to measure poverty, any society which doesn't use money would be considered to be living in extreme poverty, even if no one was hungry or homeless because they all built their own houses and grew their own food. And while this is mostly irrelevant when discussing modern urbanized societies, in which few people are actually able to do these things, it's something that has to be considered when talking about more rural areas and periods.

>>1494524
A fair point. We do often talk about how billions are being "lifted out of poverty", but isn't global capitalism and the forceful integration of many parts of the world into that order a significant part of what caused hundreds of millions, if not billions, into poverty (land enclosures, division of labor, urbanization, significant debt, etc.)? And only now is that starting to come back around. It doesn't seem quite right to call a traditional rural village in 1400s Northern India impoverished because their GDP per capita or some other like statistic was probably very low.

>>1491541
/thread

>>1494631
Well one could argue that the gap between Classes is nowdays bigger than what it was before the Industrial Revolution and the recent rise of Neoliberalism

For example one could argue that Tribal african Leaders did a better job at providing food for there people than Mordern Nation state African leaders

>>1494681
you really opened my eyes there by stating that africa is a disaster

never realized that

>>1494681
>Tribal african Leaders did a better job at providing food for there people than Mordern Nation state African leaders

No not really. You really have no idea about Africa back then and now bro.

>>1491934
Things used to be worse, so don't complain about things waaaaaaaah.

>>1492182
Kingdoms and empires sold people on nationalism all the time, what are you high?

>>1495533

Nationalism is a modern concept that came about with the creation of the nation-state, polity have existed long before either.

>>1495909
>Nationalism is a modern concept that came about with the creation of the nation-state

:^)

When will this meme die?

>>1495533
By all the time you mean "the 19th century" then sure.

Before then, it was
>MUH IMPERIUM
>MUH MANDATE OF HEAVEN
>MUH TIANXIA
>MUH CIRCLE OF EQUITY
>MUH EMPIRE IS THE GUARDIAN OF THE SUPREME LAW AND CALIPH OVER ALL (SUNNI) MUSLIMS
>MUH EMPIRE IS THIRD ROME AND THE GUARDIAN OF ALL ORTHODOX CHRISTIANS
>MUH MISION CIVILATRICE
Empires had an Imperial identity. Which is grounded on universalist notions of rule which justifies the rule of a monarchical dynasty/imperial core over multiple ethnocultural groups. Such notions were supposedly self-evident and above petty divisions and tribalism among the groups residing in an empire.

The moment many empires started nationalism was the moment they fell. I am looking at you, Ottoman and Russian Empires.

>>1494681
One could argue that those are not "true" nation states though. They have no unifying language, culture, religious traditions, ethnicity or any of the other things that get put on the nation state checklist. Their composition is more like that of a kingdom or empire with the monarch replaced with either a democratic or pretend democratic head.