Could the Mongolians have conquered mainland Europe had the khans

>>1460275
Yes if they wanted it badly but they wouldn't.

>>1460275
Completely unknown. Same reason why we can not guarantee a reasonable speculation that if Flavius hadn't be murdered or Stilcho executed if it would've staved off the fall of the Western Roman Empire for several more decades or longer. Or if there had been no plague in Sassanid Persia, would they have had fought off the Caliphate and prevented the Islamic conquest of Persia.

We just don't know.

And more directly, the Mongols had difficulty once toppling the Turkic Khwazarmanian Empire after Ghengis passed away, so I doubt it, same with Egypt.

>>1460275
The Huns tried but they failed when the West was clearly diminished, during 13th century the West reached a Golden Age so this is very unlikely.

>>1460275

Castles. Fucktons of castles.

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>mfw forests, mountains, and castles
I dare you to try it horse fucker.

>>1460906
Mongols smashed their way through china who also had castles. They did it by using the captured Chinese siege engineers and the reputation of destroying stubborn populations.


This castles stopping mongols meme needs to stop.

>>1461583
>china
>castles
>in nearly the same density as europe
No. This "hurr any building complex with a wall around it is a castle" meme needs to tstop

>>1461633
You find forts, castles and walled cities everywhere from Portugal to Japan passing through India and the Middle East. Alamut fell after days of bombardments by Mongol/Chinese siege weapons.

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>>1461660
I should mention, the high density of castles and fortresses in the same region as Alamut (200 forts according to Wiki) did little more than piss off the Mongols, who demolished most of them.

>>1461583
And they were unable to conquer Polish castles, and then this happened.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_Mongol_invasion_of_Poland
Poland during that time was under feudal fragmentation, so it was quite weak.

I was always under the opinion that they could have done so easily. But the last mongol invasion was pushed back by the Hungarians who had spend time and effort building a string of castles that could not be penetrated.

I do not believe castles are invincible, far from it. But Europe would be the absolute limit that mongol logistics could reach (and by then there were 4 khanates if I could recall). I see no reason why any other khanate would care so it would be an invasion by the russian/central asian based Golden Horde Khanate who dont have the same access to the cultured persian and chinese siege engineers that the Ilkhanate and the Yuan Dynasty had.

There was no one monolithic Mongol Khanate by the time a european invasion was possible.

>>1460922

Central Asia and China are full of forests and mountains...

Many of those cities lasted for years before they were taken. And these were cities with rockets and grenades and who fought for every single inch of their life.

There are other reasons why Europe might come out on top but I think stone forts arent the most important factor.

>>1461734
>But the last mongol invasion was pushed back by the Hungarians who had spend time and effort building a string of castles that could not be penetrated.

The thing is, the "last mongol invasion" was not actually mongols at all. It was the Golden Horde. The Mongol empire had already split up. So yes, they were badass steppe warriors, but that is only part of what made the mongols so effective. Their organization and adaptility were their real strength. They conquered China and Persia not with "muh horse archers" but with quickly adapting the expertise of the locals (like their siege engineers) and applying it there... or thousands of miles away. They weren't Klingons, they were the Borg.

>>1460275
Unknown. Although butterfly effects and all, history is still led by opportunity.

if China was a bigger opportunity, then they'd focus more on China still. However Kublai remained in China and consolidated his powers there instead of spreading out. With proper Khan ruling, it might be different.

If they didn't stop at China and focused west expansion, the history would certainly have been different. If the Khan didn't die, Subutai and his early invasion plan wouldn't have been called off for the Europe. If the Khans were united and were able to allot their resources fully, then they could move units from China to Europe and mow europe much more easily.

Due to factional disagreements, the mongols didn't go past middle east (one side defending, other side attacking). Mongols could runover/loot Egypt as well.

>>1461793
...by the time Kubilai was around, the Mongol Empire was no more.

>>1461832
Kublai was the Khan, but his influence in the west was gone.

>>1460275
Maybe if they set up shop for a thousand years but being in the saddle for a generation straight will leave you with some nervy edges.

>>1461583
The couldn't even take a single castle during their invasion in Hungary. Course, they massacred a great percent of the rural population they encountered, but the rest simply hid in castles with the local garrisons, which then constantly harassed the main armies then retreated behind the walls.
Mongols in the 13th century lacked the tools and knowledge to deal with the thousands of castles across Europe.

>Horse fucker apologiest still think mongols would have done jackshit in Europe
not only is a long way from their shit hole but it would be a grindhouse of time and resources for them
Daily reminder that mongols provided absolutely nothing to the human race and they should have been purged in a coalition

>>1460275
They couldn't beat a weak as shit Poland, how exactly would they attempt to take out the HRE, then burgundy and France, and even then England
Horsefuckers didn't have a chance in hell

Wouldn't have Europe formed some type of coalition against the Mongols and push them out if they got too far in anyways?

>>1460275

Absolutely, but why would they? Europe was an irrelevant backwater at the time. The first invasion was nothing more than a side-theater. The Mongols completely devoted themselves to the conquest of China which took them nearly a century to conquer and the Chinese were the toughest opponents they ever encountered.

>>1464694
Just like how China formed some type of coalition against the Mongols and pushed them out?

Or the middle east?

kek

Possible is not probable. Princely states are weak with very little communications. Disruption of communications/false information/betrayal are the most common theme throughout history. With the mongols too keen on using the political sabotage strategy as well as old brute, chances of coalition are slim.

>>1464837
To expand and correct this

China was three states during the Mongol invasion: the Western Xia, a complete meme nation, the Jin dynasty, comprising of slightly more outdated bureaucratic and martial systems and a much smaller population than the Southern Song dynasty, which is what people would consider the 'Chinese state' by presentist terms when thinking of pre-Mongolian China. The Xia were fucked quickly, and the Song actually invaded the Jin simultaneously with the Mongols. The Song dynasty in fact managed to diplomatically and to an extent militaristically resist the Mongols after their conquest of the Jin for a while, but succumbed none the less.

>>1464694
There was no 'European' or 'western' identity at the time that holds in modern terms. Small fragmented states all over Europe that even cumulatively didn't match the Jin all viscerally loathed each other. If Genghis had not died and the scouting army at Hungary wasn't retrieved, its' likely that they may've formed alliances with some European states to conquer others, in the same vein the Spanish did in their subjugation of the Aztecs