Have you read the holy qur'an? Did you read the original

You're browsing a Catholic image board, Catholics have no need for reading the Koran.

Catholics don't even read the bible.

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>>1451725
I've read the original in Arabic fully, and then I read the translation. The book with the translation I have has the context of Surahs from a myriad of different scholars, most of them pretty much saying the same thing. In terms of historical knowledge, there's not much to grasp outside of the fact you need to understand the fact that this book was written in the 7th century, that's pretty much it. And just to note, you will never "understand everything" when it comes to the Quran. You can have a lot of knowledge and understanding, but never reach full understanding per se of what the Quran. People have dedicated their entire lives to studying this book, spent over a decade in universities like Medina, and gone off to do their own independent research. Reading it word for word won't do you much good. Is there anything else?

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>>1451781
>all those implications

>>1451781
>Catholics don't even read the Bible

Yet you question why the religion is declining so rapidly? Besides, this isn't even a "catholic board", Christians just crawl their way in here and make retarded threads.

>>1451781
I don't think Iwojima is Catholic though

moot was anabaptist too

>>1451803
Nagasaki seems kind of religious, don't know why but he gives off those vibes.

Moot is the kind of faggot that puts down "irreligious, but believes in higher power"

>>1451725
Honestly that sounds like the same bullshit the catholics tried to insist about the bible being only allowed to be read in latin.

I can't read classical Arabic, if I could I would read the Qur'an in its original language.

For the Qur'an, there really isn't a single volume like the New Oxford Annotated Bible with everything, so you have:
The Koran Interpreted by Arthur John Arberry (for the translation, scholarly, poetic and without sectarian biases)
The Holy Qur'an: Text, Translation and Commentary by Yusuf Alì (for the massive commentary, which is consistent with traditional Islamic scholarship, tafsirs, and using the occasional hadith to explain verses that reference stories that the Qur'an doesn't actually tell)
The Cambridge Companion to the Qur'ān (for a modern, Western approach to history, scholarship and interpretation of the text)

You should read the Qur'an only after you've read the Bible, and you shouldn't read it in its order cover-to-cover, but in its chronological order, here's the traditional order, consistent with Islamic scholarship:
https://wikiislam.net/wiki/Chronological_Order_of_the_Qur'an

Read A History of God by Armstrong, it's an overall history of the 3 monotheist religions and their mystical traditions, it mentions relevant Sufi writers for people who want to know more about Sufism.

>>1451803
>>1451817
I thought moot was Jewish

>>1451866
Mormon

>>1451725
>Have you read the holy qur'an?

Yes. I come from an Arab/Orthodox/Catholic family, so I felt compelled.

>Did you read the original or a translation?

The Oxford translation. My arabic is awful

>What historical knowledge of the context do I need to understand everything?

Any good translation or academic version should have an introduction/some historical context, though definitely not on the level of a bible.

>>1451821
The Catholic argument made no sense though because the original languages of the Bible were not in Latin. The Muslim argument makes sense since it is literally true that any translation necessarily will be an interpretation that changes the range of meanings of the text or otherwise can result in non-Arabic-feasible interpretations if one reads the translation.

>>1451725
>LEL BYZANTINES IS NOT ROME :DDDD
>Chapter in the Quran literally calls them Romans.

I've read it a few times. Read a modern English translation, not one that tries fancy language, just straight up English.

You don't need much extra knowledge but understanding the life of Muhammad helps.

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>>1451725

>>1453744
Yes very interesting

Arabic
>غُلِبَتِ الرُّومُ
Transliteration
>Ghulibati alrroomu
Literal Translation
>Have been defeated the Romans
Translation
>The Romans have been defeated

>>1453710
>>1451821
Catholics don't argue that the bible should only be allowed in Latin idiots

>>1453814
Not anymore…

>>1451725
It's repetitive, somewhat deceitful and highly contradicting.It also supports Taqiyya and Kitman.

>>1451725
If you weren't riding on camels side-by-side with Mohammad, you might as well give up now because you will never get the true and unadulterated """"""""""""context""""""""""".

I went to a Somali market and asked them if they had Kuarans in English and the guy told me to come back tomorrow for an English Kuaran. Should I go pick it up or is it trash?

>>1453710
Even if you actually read the original Arabic, you're still going to be making faulty interpretations by virtue of not being a native speaker (assuming your first language isn't Arabic).

>>1454929
Somalia mentioned.! Get the transliterated one, it's much easier to learn the somali alphabet if you know english.
>>1451725
I memorized it from the age of 7, and i teach it for a living, and even I don't claim to know everything about it.

>>1451725

Read it in chronological order

https://www.unc.edu/~cernst/chronology.htm

If you don't understand something, read a tafsir about the chapter you're struggling with.

This one is excellent: http://www.englishtafsir.com/

Then realize you have wasted your precious time on a work which repeats itself a thousand times.

God is Great
Hell is bad
Follow these simple rules to avoid Hell
Or don't and burn for eternity. God doesn't care either way.

>>1455422
I've noticed this. The Koran is very repetitive and a pain to read. Excellent form of brainwashing to be totally honest.

>>1455426
>getting brainwashed by a book

>>1455437

Kids in Muslim countries are made to recite it over and over again as they are growing up.

>>1455441
>just like my Catholic prayers!

>>1455445
Go read a few pages of the Bible then a few pages of the Koran. If you claim they're equally repetitive you're being disingenuous.

>>1455441
Doesn't really do anything. You can recite the Quran without understanding a word of it. The 'brainwashing' bit is done by their imam or whatever the fuck telling them how oppressed their community is by x type of person, and how glorious heroes of Islam like the kid down the street blew themselves up a year ago and stuck it to the big bad x. They don't know what the Quran says outside of what they've been told it says. Not to mention most of the time the Quran is completely ignored in favor of sketchy Hadith that can support whatever you want them to support.

>>1455449
The repetitive stuff in the Quran is mainly just God is the best.

It's no wonder they should Allahu ackbar constantly

>>1455445

Are you suggesting that Catholicism doesn't quite successfully brainwash children into being Catholics? It's been successfully doing it for centuries.

>Literally the word of God

>A bunch of pleb jew diaries.

How did christianity catch on?

>>1455455
You'd have a half a point except islam has a long history of encouraging it's followers to not only read but to memorize the Koran. When a large chunk of the book is "Allah is great and his messenger was the perfect human" or some variation there of a huge "trigger warning" is built on a psychological level that results in people willing to kill if say a newspaper decides to depict the prophet. Write it off all you want but repetition is powerful stuff.

>>1455230
>I memorized it from the age of 7, and i teach it for a living, and even I don't claim to know everything about it.

I always wanted to be a hafizi for The Hobbit . How difficult was it?

>>1455455

This is just stupid. You sound like you think Palestine is the only Muslim country in the entire world.

>>1455470
>You'd have a half a point except islam has a long history of encouraging it's followers to not only read but to memorize the Koran.
They are taught it in its original classical arabic rather than their arabic or even their language, which for most Muslims isn't Arabic. They literally have no idea what it means.

>When a large chunk of the book is "Allah is great and his messenger was the perfect human"
Quran never says Muhammad is perfect, it says the opposite, it's Sunni idol worship that claims he is the perfect person.

>>1455470
>"Allah is great and his messenger was the perfect human"

It doesn't really though, he's as flawed as anyone. It's mostly Moham being conflicted and not knowing what to do and then god tells him "x is the right course of action here" and shit like that.

That Moham is perfect shit is basically 100% from Hadith and the ideology of those that came later.

>>1455478
Why do you think this?

>>1455487

How exactly is it mainstream for say, Muslims in Indonesia, to promote martyrdom operations by children because they are being oppressed by 'x'.

>>1455493
It doesn't really have to be 'mainstream' does it? The ratio of terrorists to the general population of Muslims is pretty low all said. Most people in the Muslim world are poor and have no prospects, out of these there are people willing to take up with whatever cause seems to make them welcome/special. If one of these types of people comes into contact with terrorist group recruiters that promises them pay and 'belonging' after filling their heads with the bullshit propaganda they are pretty likely to become terrorists. It doesn't matter who/what actually caused their predicament the groomer just has to tell them it was the west or the shia or the jews or whoever.

Is it that difficult to imagine something like that happening?

>>1455508
>It doesn't really have to be 'mainstream' does it?

I agree with pretty much everything you said in this post but that's a different issue.

We were discussing the everyday brainwashing process that perpetrates the continued existence of Islam.

You said "no it's not reciting the Koran etc etc, it's imams telling them they are being oppressed by 'x' and telling them the kid that blew himself up down the street is a hero".

>>1455480
>They are taught it in its original classical arabic rather than their arabic or even their language, which for most Muslims isn't Arabic. They literally have no idea what it means.
Interesting. Especially considering the overwhelming majority of muslim terrorists are Arab. Seems to affirm my point.

>>1455512
Sorry, I completely misunderstood what you were referring to (and, I think, the other guy I replied to before.)

That kind of 'brainwashing' is mostly just the culture of those people. Most people are just Muslim because their parents are, their relatives are, everyone around them is. In my experience mot people in the middle east are Muslim in nearly the same way that Christians are Christian in the west. That is, only on holidays that are mostly cultural things now than religious. Maybe a little more religious on average, but I don't think it's that different.

When I was there last year at around Christmas time there was actually a lot of debate between family about Christmas I heard. It was about whether or not it was alright to celebrate Christmas (which seemed to be celebrated a lot more than I would have thought.) The argument against it was "it's not our culture." Which is weird, as you can imagine, for family that was over from the US and UK because it's the culture for them now. The argument for it was that Jesus is a prophet in Islam and Christmas is a celebration of his birth, so there is no reason it would be wrong to celebrate it. So the muslims raised and living in the west had Christmas in their culture and the muslims raised and living in the east didn't. There were hundreds of people dressed as santa driving around in trucks on Christmas too, it was kind of surreal.

>>1455539
Lebanon?

>>1455539

That's cool, in fairness it was a pretty disjointed conversation anyway.

What part of the ME were you in?

>>1455543
>>1455546
The country which is seen by so many as the worst country in the east. Pakistan.

I would agree with most of the negative points against it, but the experience made me reconsider it a lot. Heard so many insults when people were talking about politicians and terrorists from basically everyone though. Seemed like everyone was just done with it.

>>1455520
>Especially considering the overwhelming majority of muslim terrorists are Arab
All the problems in the Islamic world are in the middle Arab part, that's why. Indonesian Muslims don't give a shit. Muslims don't read the Qur'an regardless, when was the last time a Christian or Jew or Muslim actually read their book cover to cover. They go off their school teaching and nothing more.

I'm not Muslim but i dated a Muslim girl for years and i knew more about islam and the quran than she did, i actually read it several times, she hadn't once. Nor had her family. They would talk about Islam at the dinner table and I'd blow them all away with my knowledge, they'd start talking some bullshit like THE QURAN SAYS PUT YOUR LEFT FOOT IN THE BATHROOM FIRST and i was like No, it doesn't, that's hadith, they would disagree until i asked them to find it.

Religious people are ALL hypocrites, every last one. Even those who try the hardest will never live up to the impossible standards of their books.

>>1451781
Every Catholic mass begins with one reading from the old testament, one from St Paul's letters, and one from the gospel. Are none of those included in your "bible"?

>>1455570

So you don't actually read it for yourself then? You just listen to short cherry picked excerpts.

>>1455563
Nice anecdote but memorizing the Koran is still a widespread practice in the middle East.

>The bulk of the curriculum in Saudi Arabia revolves around it:

The study of Islam dominates the Saudi educational system. In particular, the memorization by rote of large parts of the Qu'ran, its interpretation and understanding (Tafsir) and the application of Islamic tradition to everyday life is at the core of the curriculum. Religion taught in this manner is also a compulsory subject for all university students.

You're making the assumption that because Westerners do not read the Bible Muslims don't read the Koran which is demonstrably wrong, especially considering history.

I tried reading it to see what it is all about but it seemed rather shit desu. I am not interested in the historical relevance but more in the possible philosophical implications and literary beauty and it didn't deliver in those regards.

Boring shit that is only really relevant to historians/10

>>1455583
(Continued)
Historically Catholic priests discouraged people from reading the Bible while Sunni Islam not only encouraged reading but memorization.

Many centuries later this practice continues.

>>1455589

It is incredibly boring shit and philosophically worthless.

It's not irrelevant though, it's pretty important given the current state of the world to know what is in it.

>>1455583
>You're making the assumption that because Westerners do not read the Bible Muslims don't read the Koran which is demonstrably wrong, especially considering history.
Just going off my experience of living in a Muslim country. They keep the Quran hidden from them, only to be taught not learned. Most terrorists are iraqis and syrians though, not saudis.

>>1455589
Well that comes down to the translation, some can completely butcher the poeticness of it. It's a compromise, one with the best translation will lose the poeticness but one with the best poeticness will be hard to understand.

>>1455607
That I would disagree with, but I am honestly not interested in having the same e-argument over wether Islam is the root of all evil for n-th time.

>>1455615
Yeah, I figured something like that. I am somewhat bummed over not being able to appreciate the poetic value of it, especially as it is one of the things that some muslims that I know always herald as being the "proof" of it being godsent.

>>1455620
Listen to it being read in classical arabic, it does sound nice. It flows so well.

This is one of the most poetic and allegorical verses in the quran, and the most discussed in meaning

Allah is the Light of the heavens and the earth.
A parable of His Light is a niche wherein is a lamp—
the lamp is in a glass, the glass as it were a glittering star—
lit from a blessed olive tree,
neither eastern nor western,
whose oil almost lights up,
though fire should not touch it.
Light upon light.
Allah guides to His Light whomever He wishes.
Allah draws parables for mankind,
and Allah has knowledge of all things.

>>1455624
That is a pretty neat passage, thanks. To me Arabic in general sounds very fluid. It seems like a language that lends itself well to poetry.

>>1455616

It's certainly a strange opinion to have that Islam is completely irrelevant to anything happening in global society in the present day and completely irrelevant to any issues in current affairs.

Yes. Each chapter has its own historical context in which it was revealed, which I'd recommend reading up on whilst reading the book proper.

Sura al-Kawthar, for example, commemorates the birth of Muhammad's daughter, Fatima.

>>1455628
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qqTUEQa5Qmg

You can drop parts of words and things like that to make things work out. It's weird as fuck as an English speaker.

>>1455609
I'm from Iran and they practically give Qurans away there. I myself have 3 copies, one Farsi translation, one English translation, and one in the original Arabic.

Where are you from?

>>1453744
The Persians called them Rum as well, pretty much everyone who wasn't European considered them the successors of the Rome in the West.

>>1455589

I thought it had a poetic quality to it.

>>1455570
It goes old testament, psalm, new testament (not necessarily one of Paul's letters), then gospel (unless it's Easter or something, then there are more readings).

The pre-Vatican II mass has fewer readings

>>1455641
I'm British, I've just lived in other places. I know you can obviously obtain them, but in school they tend to be more secretive. Which works because the majority of people take no more interest in religion and just believe what they got taught. Oh and if you ever disagreed with the Islamic teacher, or just questioned something, you would get screamed at and told to leave the class.