Why didn't the Japanese use shields? Like even the

Japan stopped using shields heavily about the same time as Europe.

>>1438527
Knights stopped using shields too

>>1438547
>>1438553
But Europeans didn't fully abandon shields and those who did tended to be in very good armour.

>>1438553
Knights stopped using shields because the armor got better so there was no use in carrying them around you fucking idiot that's not the same as in Japan where the armor was shit yet they still disregarded shields.

>>1438575
Why be so hostile

>>1438579
Why be such a dumb amerifat fucking faggot who takes his historical knowledge from LOTR?

>>1438593
I'm not even that guy, just grow up and be more civil.

>>1438527
>gooks
>shields
ninjas can dodge bullets & the shield would just be heavy and cumbersome and weigh them down

duh anon

do you guys even /his/?

but vikings tho
were they really that strong?

GUYS LET'S TALK ABOUT SWORDS

>>1438607
vikings are a meme

>>1438607
lindy made a video in which he pointed out the idea we have of berserkers is most likely false. pretty fascinating

>>1438527
>Why didn't the Japanese use shields?

They did use shields.

Low-rank foot soldiers would carry around large wooden or bamboo shields to protect samurais, who standing behind the shields would fire volley of arrows at the enemy.

>>1438620
And that video omits the instances in the sagas where they are described as indeed being pissed off. Still it's not like it really matters since berserkers didn't exist anyway.

>>1438607
Vikings were fairly good raiders (as in going after soft targets and being able to use the European river ways to get to said targets), but not the best soldiers. Personally, people should be talking more about their exploration and trade routes then "Muh Vikings are awesome warriors and shieeet".

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>>1438615
sure

>>1438634
do you know what a spear would have caused to this bottle? some serious damage I tell you

>>1438640
But it wouldn't have look as cool!

>>1438644
ha! have you ever been to a larp meeting?

>>1438632
Yeah trade and exploration are really fascinating topics to talk about lmao no one gives a fuck about seajews.

>>1438652
Sometimes I wonder why I even post on /his/.

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DEX>DEF

>>1438666
Same, this board has fallen apart in the last month, by a handful of idiotic troll posters who everyone takes the bait to.

>>1438606
>a high level of discourse is expected

>>1438620
>>1438630
>Described in sagas, Byzantines, more sources than jesus christ had
>Its just a barbarian who gets enraged

Your anti-viking butthurt is warping your reality like a drug

Shields in East Asian warfare seem to have been essentially portable palisades similar in appearance to the Roman tower shields, footsoldiers carried them around just so they could plant them in the ground and hide behind them against missile volleys. Hence the Japanese word for shield is "tate" ("vertical", "standing up") defined as "a weapon stood up or erected before one's body to block and protect from attacks". (One kanji for "shield", 楯, also means "vertical bar".)

There are very few examples of small shields being worn/held to protect the user directly , so I imagine it simply didn't fit their type of warfare.

>>1438722
Being pissed off is not the same as being berserker otherwise we might call Celts berserkers as well since they were very prone to frenzy. If they didn't wear bear or wolf pelt and weren't in a cult worshipping Odin then they were not fucking berserkers.

Also

Rus weren't vikings.

>>1438761
>楯, also means "vertical bar"
Or rather "plaque" or "parapet", in Chinese. In Japanese it's exclusively shield.

>>1438722
Berserkers in the sagas are literal shapeshifters you fucking retard.

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Have some pics of Chinese shields, though I don't know how historically accurate they are.

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>>1438781

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>>1438786

>>1438764
the word ur looking for is Champions

>>1438781
i wonder how many houses were missing their front doors that season?

>>1438799
No.

>>1438606
You're just a dig bick, you that read wrong.

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>>1438761
Why such a different philosophy to fighting over something seemingly so obvious and good to use

Japanese warfare was mostly fought with missiles. Early on with horse archers where you dont really need shields just large enough shoulders plates to block arrows of which we can see on early samurai armors. Later with guns where no shield would protect you.
As with infranty the length of the spears used forced the soldiers to use them with both hands.

In other parts of asia especially in SE asia shields were as wide spread as in europe and were used up to colonial times

>>1438666
Don't worry man, we're not all idiots.

I think it's pretty mind-blowing that we have Scandinavian documents from the twelfth to the fifteenth centuries casually referring to Vinland like it was common knowledge.

>>1438702
>last month
This board has had a couple of the same bait threads since its inception.

>>1438652
>seajews
kek

>>1438975
It's a dumb myth and you're a faggot the reason is simply the fact that since samurai were horse archers a shield would be useless for them.

>>1438896
But now we've been getting to the point where you have the same VIKINGS SHIT thread 10 times a night

The guy just needs banning

>>1438975
That makes no sense given that they used Guns and bows and their primary form of attack was to strike out against unarmed surprised opponents. They had basically no honour really.

>>1438994
>They had basically no honour really.

>hey guys, we're going to attack want to get ready and kill some of our people and maybe even defeat us?
>this is the totally honourable way to go

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>>1438606

>>1438527
Shields were used though. They just fell out of use by the 1500's because two handed weapons became the standard.

Spears, bows, naginatas, matchlocks, etc. all require two hands to use properly.

>>1438652
>seajews
>anybody but the Venetians or maybe the Dutch
learn 2 history

>>1439018
Yes Im not saying honour is good or needed but they're supposedly be honourable but if you look they were not very
>>1439096
why

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>>1439117
Bows and Spears are generally superior to swords due to the added range, ease of construction, and their ability to be used en masse by ashigaru (peasant conscripts) to better effect than swords. Same for guns.

Can you assholes just answer the fucking question instead of startng another sword vs spear argument?

>>1439171
The question was already answered you fuck

>>1439176
No it fucking wasn't it's just a bunch of /his/torians spewing pophistory bullshit as usual.

>>1439161
>ease of construction
>bows
>guns

m8...

>>1439191
Considering your view of us is so low, why don't you do some actual research instead of coming here and behaving like a petulant child?

>>1439191
They used large shields to protect formations

>>1439191

These aren't pop history bullshit they are the general understanding of the topic amongst the community
>>1438761
>>1439096

The japanese used shields early in their history. But the use of personal shields fell out of use by the 1500's, which is generally what people think of when they think samurai.

By that time infantry formations were used and the preferred weapons were spears, bows, and matchlocks. Shields became vertical palisades used to block missile attacks.

If you don't like that answer go and do research yourself and stop bitching about it on a Cambodian shadow puppet forum.

>>1439221
That doesn't answer why they didn't use small shields fucker.

I don't think I've ever hear a good excuse for this and this thread is no exception.

Those mobile palisades don't count. That's just people looking for anything that looks like an excuse to jump on because they can't explain it. I propose a radical but elegant solution for this puzzle: the Japanese are simply retarded.

Yes, they are also very intelligent in many ways going by things like IQ averages and technological development, but they are also retarded. They have a nation wide philosophy of "if it ain't broke, don't fix it". Except worse. It's more like, you must endure and not admit things are broken because then you are weak. This is a country that still uses flip phones and fax machines despite supposedly being one of the most technologically advanced in the world. Once they get used to doing something a certain way efficiency is slow to change things unless people are forced.

People can't explain it because no one dares call out all Japan as a bunch of inefficient idiots that literally have no good excuse for not using shields other than stubborn stupidity. But that's the reason.

Sometimes cultures just latch on to bad habits. Western Europe couldn't do hygiene well for the longest time, especially in city cleaning. There's no real excuse, people just adapted to a new lower normal and endured because they didn't know better.

>>1439265
Is this a joke? Go read a book you dumb hit.

>>1439237
>Combat mostly relies on missiles, usually on horseback
>Implying small shields would be of any use there

>>1439270
Excellent reply.

>>1439277
>shields are not useful against missiles
>all combat in Japan was done on horseback. there where no foot soldiers

>>1438527
Zvezda has some nice illustrators.

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>>1439221
I thought the same too, shields also fell out of favor in 15th century Europe and Japan seems to have gone through a similar transition.

HOWEVER

I don't see or hear about many shields used during the Mongol invasions. It could be that Japan reached the plate armor stage earlier than Europe, possibly due to the ample supply of laquer and silk.

>>1439237
Because small shields were generally useless to mounted archers and the peasants needed two hands to use their spears.

>>1438553
Only when plate armor reached a point where shields no longer served much purpose. Japanese armor never reached that level.

>>1439237
the main weapon was the bow, then the gun. both require two hands to use. polearms also require two hand to use effectively.

With the addition of effective armor there was little reason for most warriors to use a shield, which is why we only have one depiction of an early medieval samurai using one.

The shield, which the Japanese did have, fell out of favor because two handed weapons - swords and bows - became popular.

>>1439299
This has already been said but apparently it upsets OP's autism.

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>>1439265
That might be true today, the Japanese are very weird after being nuked, but it doesn't count pre ww2.

How quickly did the Japanese adopt guns? Within 1 year of being introduced to them they had entire field armies using matchlocks, compare to Europe which took over a century to fully adopt them. Similarly when Europeans forced their borders open, within 20 years Japan was an almost entirely modernised country, switching from spear ashigaru to line infantry using caplock rifles, it was unpredicted.

If something was clearly superior to them, they adopted it immediately. There must be another reason for not using shields. It's probably the heavy use of muskets, and the quite prevalent use of fairly good armour even by low ranks.

>>1438768
Pretty sure the shapeshifters in the sagas are the shapeshifters

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>>1438761
Nah. that's just Japan.

The Chinese/Viets/Koreans had personal shields. These were more often than not used by dedicated swordsmen. Or pikemen and other troop types ditched their two-handed weapons and grabbed a hand weapon and shield whenever going somewhere tight like, say, a siege.

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>>1439300
ay fuk u lad ive made like 2 posts here

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>>1439310

Well if you go back far enough the Japanese had them too

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>>1439297
>polearms also require two hand to use effectively.
Could you imagine some sort of crazy society that specialized in polearms but could also harness the power of the shield? They might very well be unstoppable.

>>1439332
Have you ever considered that not all people develop the same way?

Man it's almost like japanese polearms weren't different than Greek polearms or something.

>>1439332
The macedonian phalanx, and their is some debate on this, hung their shields on themselves rather than actively using them on their arm.

It is a pattern, that as far as I know was not copied by latter European pikemen

Those palisades the Japanese carried in front of formations were very effective at stopping arrows, and they could also be used for makeshift fortifications,

Because Japanese people used full body armor far earlier than Europe. Shields are useful when you don't have full body armor.
See >>1439332 pic. Shields are used as armor here.
While Europeans used chain mail, the Japanese used lamellar armor. And shields are not always better than two handed weapons. Wako, the middle ages Japanese pirates used katana against Chinese people then, who used normal sword and shield. But in a historical document, they say Wako was stronger.

>>1439338
>Have you ever considered that not all people develop the same way?
Sure. But I just think it's funny people present these bullshit answers as if they are the gospel final word and we don't have real life to compare and contrast with.

"oh the Japanese couldn't have used shields because they used spears and it's not possible to use both."

Fucking seriously? It's one of the most famous combinations in war. The Japanese might not have done it for some reason, but it can definitely be done. Also in this thread

"Shields became obsolete in Japan because they had cavalry. Especially the dreaded archer cavalry."

Again, this is not unique to the history of warfare. Like really obviously so. Other cultures encountered cavalry and found good use for shields. Horses aren't even native to Japan and it tends to be hilly. Even the Chinese next door apparently had shields and they also definitely dealt with horse archers.

>>1439394
This sounds like the best reason to me, though I'm pretty sure lower class soldiers weren't fully armored.

>>1439396
Even the mongols used shields.

They just didn't used shields. There were tons of things Japanese people knew but didn't use. They didn't use buttons, glass, horse carriages, road pavement, wool, drugs, etc.

>>1439418
>drugs
Pretty sure they liked to drink.

>>1439396
>shields became obsolete because they had cavalry

It's not a matter of encountering cavalry so much as they preferred to utilize horse archers. Horse archers, who themselves have no use for a shield and would instead be prohibitive.

To counter horse archers, they used palisades. Large shields.

And again the japanese didn't develop hoplite tactics. Bringing that up is pointless when asking why they didn't use spears with shields. Yes it can be done. They however didn't use it and when spears were used in formation, it looked more like the pike formations similarly found in Europe at the time, who also didn't use shields.

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>>1439396
The thing is Japanese (and even Chinese) formations similar to the Macedonian Phalanx was not only relying on thrust: but on chop as well.

Look at the average Japanese spear: it's literally a short sword on a long pole. Logic with that was while the front rankers are thrusting their shit at the enemy, the guys behind are using a chopping motion with what essentially are pikes, so the enemy are being fucked from the front as well as the back.

>>1439432
Yeah, they enjoyed alcohols and smoking a lot. But there's almost no drug culture in old Japan.

>>1439396
there are often multible reasons for historical developments,

and its true, you cannot use a Japanese yari effectively with one hand, a shield and long pike combination is actually pretty rare in history, the Macedonian phalanx being one of the few examples.

>>1439416
True, but personal shields fell out of popularity earlier than the rise of ashigaru, and they still had large shields/palisades protecting them at the front

A shield would only help a samurai vs samurai situation, wood shields were not very helpful against the two handed spears they were using.

>>1439440
Why didn't the European use those classy and useful conical hats? Seems insane. Can you explain the reason?

>>1439464
....because they are hats?

A truly peculiar thing among East Asian Armies is skimping on head protection for the rank and file.

Those hats are merely straw covered in laquered leather and protected you versus sunstroke. Some were made of metal but not all.

>>1439487
Those hats in the pic are made of steel. They were helmets for the lower rank soldiers.

>>1439210
easier then grorious katana forded 1000 times

>>1439487
The cheap lacquered armor they gave ashigaru was actually pretty resilient, and offered good protection from cuts and OK protection from thrusts

>>1439502
Like I said, some were metal, but most were leather covered straw hats. The Smaller Ones are definitely iron but the wide ones are straw.
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Jingasa#/media/File:3_jingasa.JPG
Can you imagine wearing something like a fucking wok on your head?

>>1439523
my understanding is they used laquared paper, with was actually very good armor like I said here
>>1439512

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>>1439512
I wasnt talking about armor, but head protection.
>European logic.
"If you cant afford the whole armor at least have a fucking helmet."
>East Asian logic
"If you can't afford the whole armor for your rank and file, just give them the chestpiece and call it a day."

>>1439523
Just now I found an interesting article in Japanese wikipedia. " A Jingasa is made of bamboo, leather, steel etc. It was also used as a hand shield. "

"In Sengoku era, Jingasa was made with leather on metal frames. But later they were made entirely of steel. Because it's much easier to make."

So basically, they put shields on their head!

>>1439560
The article is here
https://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E7%AC%A0

>>1439560
Ive actually seen a martial arts demonstrations where one was used like a buckler

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=19lJerM4bj4

You can see it here at about 4:00

>>1439161
Fucking love this guy's work. Even if it's all digital.

>>1439523
>>1439557
European metal helms were often used as pots, so it doesn't surprise me.

>>1439570
My samurais can't be this chubby.

>>1439394
>Wako, the middle ages Japanese pirates used katana against Chinese people then, who used normal sword and shield.
Wako got BTFO by literal peasants.

>>1439596
didnt seem that fat to me

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>>1439487
>A truly peculiar thing among East Asian Armies is skimping on head protection for the rank and file.
no

>>1439440
The Chinese never learned to use the pike, and therefore did not have pike and shot like the Europeans or Japanese

>>1440002
>The Chinese never learned to use the pike
wew lad
http://greatmingmilitary.blogspot.com/2015/12/chinese-infantry-tactics-p1.html

>>1438606
You 12 or 13?

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but they did

>>1439580
What is he called?

but the vikings tho

>>1440166
But that's before the KATANA was invented.

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>>1440002
>The Chinese never learned to use the pike
LET'S MAKE OUR SPEARS LONGER is the dumbest improvement one can make on a spear, which leads to pikes.

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>>1439608
Yeah, no.

1) Those aren't rank and file: those are Imperial Guards. The Painting is about the Jiajing Emperor's visit to his family tombs, accompanied by his imperial guard.
2) The average Chinese chump had only some cuirass as his baseline protection. His headgear and other bits of armor is often highly dependent on the armory that supplies him.

If he belonged to a private military organization however like some General's household bodyguard or a Youxia outfit, then he can buy whatever he wants.

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>>1438593

Cheer up, sunshine.

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>>1440222
>1) Those aren't rank and file: those are Imperial Guards.
Those soldiers are the rank and file of capital garrisons. His personal guards wear lamellar,scale,mail etc.

By rank and file do you mean the hereditary military garrisons,coastal militias,civilian volunteers,border garrisons,mercenaries?

Neither brigandine or metal helmets are exclusive to the capital.

>2) The average Chinese chump had only some cuirass as his baseline protection.
There is no standard equipment. You can even find unarmored soldiers amongst the border garrisons.

Speaking of the border garrisons,the inventory of Records of the Three Passes and Four Border Garrisons places helmets and armor together.

>Youxia outfit
?

>>1440203

>the dumbest improvement one can make on a spear,

Yet it leads to a much more effective weapon, at least for the purposes of massed formations

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>>1438652
>board about history
>"nobody gives a shit about historical trade routs or major discoveries"
lmao

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>>1438606
>being that guy

>>1439580
Digital is just another medium. If the guy understands how lighting and form works, it'd show through whatever he chose to use.

>>1438622
I completely understand the cultural source of mecha now

>>1439560
This guy solved it. They just started putting shields on their head.

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>>1438527
They did. During the Kamakura they wore them on the shoulders.

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>>1440463
As warfare became more organized and infantry-centric during the Sengoku, they got other people to hold it for them.

>>1439593

lol pot heads

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>>1440467
You can see vestiges of them in ceremonial parades, re-enactments, and the like as well in modern Japan.

>>1439560

this makes more sense than I would like to admit.

like, why did Europoors bother with helmets when they could have just put their shields on their heads? Embarrassing.

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>>1440463
>>1440467
>>1440474
As for why the Japanese did not use "hand" shields, that's a more multi-faceted question. Keep in mind shield use was not continuous either through European history.

Shields featured very prominently in antiquity but generally speaking as your armour improves the necessity of carrying a hand shield decreases.

The other major factor is the way in which warfare is fought - weapons that require the use of two hands such as a bow or pike preclude the use of a shield most of the time, which means shields get externalized for use as a pavise. While a shield can ward off blows in hand-to-hand combat, the much better solution in organized formation combat is to kill the other guy first from farther away, which usually means using a two handed weapon with greater reach.

The more useful function of a shield is protecting yourself from missiles, but this can be easily done without holding the shield on your arm.

good thread


Ashigaru > European men at arms

>>1440480
And leave your head completely unprotected?

>>1439440
You don't know the difference between a Yari and a Naginata do you?

>>1438575
>>1438593
>>1438606
why are you so angry lad? what would your friends think if you told them you wrote angry and rude replies to people on a cambodian basket-weaving forum?

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>Why didn't Japan use shields at the same time that Europeans realized that shields are dumb

>>1442003
You understand that Europeans were moving away from shields because of guns, right?

>>1440319
Those red hats are so cute.

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>>1441835
Read my post again and focus on what I said about how the Yari pike formations are used.

>>1442742

So did the Japanese

>>1442923
Is this thread not about Japanese pre-contact?

>>1438764
>rus weren't vikings

>>1442986

The pic in the OP has fucking arquebuses on it

>>1442986
No, late Sengoku

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>>1442884

>>1442994
>>1443000
Well shit, then the answer is obvious, wooden lacquered shields aren't great for protection from guns, and they didn't have the money or the energy to carry fucktons of thick metal shields around.

>>1438764
If there is no mention of berserkers anywhere then where do you get your definition for what is and isn't a berserker.

>>1438620
>lindy
Opinion discarded.

To answer the main question, Japanese warfare was both highly mobile and used small skirmish formations in hilly or mountainous terrain. Shield formations like the roman squares or greek phalanxes generally needed larger, level and open ground to fight effectively in formation. While that does exist in Japan, it is not as common, which is also why they never had large chariot forces or much in the way of heavy cavalry.

Light, loose formations worked best. The japanese could put larger formations together, but these favored large pole arms and abandoned heavy armor just like their western counterparts.

Chinese and Korean forces of the same era used shields extensively but had better terrain for it. The Japanese obviously knew of the foreign formations and the concept of the shield, but did not make use of it on their home turf because it was ill suited to it.

>>1439332
>>1439396
The Macedonian phalangites used relatively light armor, they needed those shields.

>>1443175
Didn't know they were painted, I thought they were covered with some sort of red cloth

>>1442003
To be fair, front line European pikemen often compensated for the lack of shields by having more extensive armor. Not sure if the same would apply to Japanese infantry

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>>1444475

>>1438527
Because they didn't really need them. They could've imported shields from the Chinese, but they didn't. Means they had no use for them.

>>1444668
why did they have no use for them

>>1444670
You should ask them, not me. If they had a use for them they'd use them, not like they didn't know about shields.

>>1444693
Theyre all dead.

Asking questions isn't about saying WELL THEY DIDNT USE THEM SO THEY MUST NOT HAVE NEEDED THEM, its about finding out the reason why they didnt need them.

>>1444697
Point is they obviously didn't need them, as for why? Ask a Japanese historian if you care that much.

>>1444697
Well we have gone over that,

They had palisades carried in front of formations that served a similar purpose.

They preferred two handed weapons like bows, naginata, and later pikes and guns.

Full plate was a response to firearms.

But they skipped over that phase in Japan. Guns were so widespread on the battlefield so quickly that there was no time to develop full plate, they went right to the new tactics that Europe was also developing. Squares and lines and the like.

Then they gave up guns and spent two hundred years making poems.

>>1444749
No, they did not. They gave up on letting people have private armies.

>>1444766
Not really, each domain kept its own nominal force, and had guns and pikes in storage, which immediately came out if they needed them.

One of the problems plauging the late tokugawa is even though they had tens of thousands of soldiers on paper, They did not have direct control of them and those armies were often uneager to fight if it was not in their own domains interests.

>>1444786

Satsuma could have been a contender in the fight for ports in the East Indies, no joke.

>>1444705
>Ask a Japanese historian if you care that much.
I don't know any Japanese historians, stop being so anal.
>>1444725
Yes i know the reasons now but he is ticking me off with his pointless answer philosophy.

>>1444749
how is full plate a response to firearms? Firearms can easily pierce most Armour, which is why as they became the primary weapon on the battlefield Armour was done away with completely. Plate Armour was a response to more and better steel production and better craftsmanship.

>>1438593

>FUK U AMERIKAAANS NO CULTURE YOU WANT HAMBURGER INFERIOR SCHOOLS CANT EVEN WIN IN VIETNAM LOL AMERICAN "CUISINE"

>>1438593
calm down, lad.

File: JapaneseTrade17thCentury.jpg (241KB, 929x1158px) Image search: [Google]

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>>1444796
Really ? Could you tell me more about that ? I know about the Red Seal ships, and the Japanese immigrants to South East Asia, is this what you are talking about ?

Good thread. Makes me want to reinstall Shogun II: Total War.

I just wish siege warfare wasn't so awful in that game, or in Total War games in general.

>>1445122
I go the Ieyasu method because of that. Avoid all sieges and always force a field battle.

>>1445122
>tfw can't run TW past Empire
>tfw kinda want some samurai action but don't want to deal with Shogun 1 sprites
Did anyone ever make a Shogun mod for Rome or M2?

File: 20160721211747_1.jpg (654KB, 1920x1080px) Image search: [Google]

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>>1445122
Walls really shouldn't be climbable.
>>1445175
Shogun 2 runs great, if you can run empire you can run it. Get it.

>>1445190
They actually did climb walls, they also used fire and catapults/cannons.

But the castles are laid out entirely wrong

>>1445202
Im sure they climbed walls but in the game they climb walls that are just vertical with nothing to grab onto.

>>1445190
It takes ridiculous optimization mods and settings minimized, and still strains my poor laptop to 25fps at best. I shouldn't have said I can run it in all honesty.

And besides, with certain sites being dead I'd have to buy the game, and with my future desktop on the financial horizon I'll be better off waiting for the holiday sales.

That said, I like to know about a region/era before I play video games about it, particularly one as heavily mythicized as this one, so what's some good reading on Japanese history?

File: bigOsaka.jpg (1MB, 1700x1092px) Image search: [Google]

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>>1445202
>But the castles are laid out entirely wrong

This.

>tfw you'll never take on Osaka Castle in it's maze-like glory

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>>1438527
yolo

>>1445223
I didnt know much about Japan but playing Shogun 2 has got me very interested and I've learned a lot. Not from the game but just from reading. I don't believe the game butchers the units historical accuracy like they do in Rome 2 but the battles are very arcade in style. I do love the advantages of going Christian and getting guns and cannons so early though, but at the cost of everyone hating you.

>>1444407
>Wears Linen or Bronze thorax and greaves
>Phrygian Helmet
> """"""light""""""

Sorry for patronizing you anon, but the real reason later pikes didn't have shields is because shields don't block musket fire effectively

>>1445241
At this point the first thing I do with a TW game is find the equivalent of Europa Barbarorum and install it immediately.

>>1445248
That's relatively light, it's not mail. The Linothorax is very light, a helmet is standard for all, greaves weigh little and fit well.

>>1445146
Yeah, I usually do the same. One army to siege, one or two other to protect it, depending on wether or not I can afford it.

Another thing that bugs me is how small armies are. Even with mods. Can't wait for computers strong enough to simulate battles involving almost 300000 men, like the siege of Osaka or Sekigahara.

>>1445446
There's a video of Empire where a guy with a megarig made a 40,000 man battle happen.

Which, you know, is like a battle of middling size at best for the Napoleonic wars.

>>1445446
You would need to be able to assign units to effective ai control with those numbers.

But it would be pretty cool.

>>1445488
>Total War Arena
>10v10 battles
And then each person only gets 3 units and trying to have solid lines doesn't work with the gameplay because everyone's just trying to find a flank/ranged will tear you apart and you can't apply any pressure against shitters who run away.
It was a good 20 minute break, though, and I can't wait for them to release the beta with expanded rosters.

>>1440498
That knight is pimp as fuck

>>1438781
At the time dagger axes were used as 2h polearms without shields. The ones with shields used swords and clubs.

>>1438607
Muh ancestor were warrior Vikings


Re3eeeeeeeeeee


Don't ever belittle tem.

>>1445236
It would at least force players to be a little more realistic and starve out defenders more.

But TW is about fighting over realism so that shit is never going to happen.

>>1438634
That fat fuck actually has some good technique.

>>1438652
Go back to /b/

>>1439313
That's rangefinder, you idiot. You can see second arm, like in any other "gun".

>expecting Japanese to have any good ideas about warfare

Name one ancient/medieval famous Japanese battle where they won. Name one war for expansion they won

>>1449113
They won our hearts.

>>1444458
>I thought they were covered with some sort of red cloth
Granted,there's no way to determine whether artistic depictions of headgear are felt hats or metal helmets.

>>1439304
yes, japan was also tiny and far more homogeneous compared to europe, and had access to somewhat reliable gunpowder tech traded from the Portuguese.
Funny thing is, the portuguese also sold guns and shit to the vijaynagar empire.

>>1449113
>Name one ancient/medieval famous Japanese battle where they won

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Chungju
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Busanjin
Battle of Mikuriya
Battle of Taka Island

> Name one war for expansion they won
First_Sino-Japanese_War
Russo-Japanese war

>>1448642
The fuck are you calling me an idiot for, cunt. I didn't say anything about the image i just posted it.

The cheek of these niggas

>>1449165
They had some pretty good comeback victories against the Ming during the second phase of the Imjin War too at Ulsan and Sacheon. Granted, they were on the severe defensive in both cases but it's worth mentioning I guess.

>>1449289
While I do admire Japanese tenacity,artillery explosions(Sacheon) and personal grudges(Suncheon) are hardly the result of military prowess.

The Japanese had no reliable strategy to counter Ming cavalry.

The Japanese were in no situation to exploit these victories and the only difference in a Ming victory would be the capitulation or execution of the defender.

>>1438593
woah dude calm down we're all friends here

>>1449389
True enough, they really gained nothing out of their victories there other than extending the war a bit and helping them stroke their Mimizuka boner, presumably.

It's interesting how they didn't really have an answer to Ming cavalry even with massively favourable situation like Byeokjegwan, Ming retinue casualties considered.

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>>1449409
>It's interesting how they didn't really have an answer to Ming cavalry even with massively favourable situation like Byeokjegwan,Ming retinue casualties considered.
1.Japanese don't have much experience against cavalry forces.(most Japanese cavalry were mounted infantry)

2.Ming forces involved were the cream of the crop with state of the art equipment.

Japanese records end up fabricating the amount of Ming casualties(6,000-50,000).

Though in reality the Japanese outnumbered Ming forces by at least fourfold if we take the low count.

>>1439440
Could I get a sauce on that pic?

>>1440175
literally cabinet doors

>>1449491
It strikes me as rather interesting that so many early modern armies only had an armored cavalry branch. From what I can tell Ming, Qing, Mughal and ottomans all ditched infantry armor the moment guns were in play or even before that. Meanwhile Europeans and Japanese keep infantry armor to a degree.

>>1451582
Anthony Bryant's Osprey Samurai book

>>1439265
>fax machines
if actually worked in your life you'll realize there are LOTS of old stuff around even in western big companies
I used to work for an american cruise line were they still used some dot matrix printers and even floppy disks since the electonic charts machines where made in the 2000s

companies and business aren't like consumer markets, they use whatever it works if it does the job and it's still plenty of old workers more comfortable with fax machines than everything

the flip phone argument is irrelevant, people use what they are comfortable using, not everybody likes touch screen especially those who don't use applications designed to work with that

>>1452095
if you ever*

>>1451841
They ditched much of infantry armor because of the size of the armies those people were fielding.

Europe will eventually do the same in the late 1600s.

>>1452127
Cause or effect?

>>1452131
Cause.

If I'm fielding lots of chumps on the field i'd rather have them have offensive capability than defensive ones.

besides in the 1500s China did not entirely abandon infantry armor. It just became lest expansive like only a cuirass or something. Some troops had only the lower faulds of lamellar armor, relying on a shield to protect them, some- especially in the naval services- wore rattan armor, and some wore think linen armor. It was never quite uniform.

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>>1444749
>Full plate was a response to firearms

Full plate was in use before firearms came into popular use. It was because of firearms that the amount of armor people wore DECREASED to usually pieces such as abnormally thick breastplates to try and prevent shot from piercing them.

>>1452240
He's talking about the nips I reckon.

>>1451841
>Ming, Qing
Uh,cotton/brigandine armor was universal.

Regional armors include mail,paper,rattan and leather.

Most unarmored soldiers were irregulars,marines or part of the laager force.

>>1452150
>Some troops had only the lower faulds of lamellar armor
Rank and file wouldn't use lamellar.

>think linen armor
?

>>1438803
underrated post

>>1440498
>tfw your halberd staff clips thorough the gangway