Why is it considered 'enlightened' to lay the blame

Because it's easy to demonize The Other, but it requires introspection to examine your own faults.
Similarly to how it is easy to automatically cast your own efforts as "righteous and defensive" regardless of the consequences.

You can't do anything about others, but you can change your own policies.

>>1434709
>Because it's easy to demonize The Other, but it requires introspection to examine your own faults.
Actually, it's easiest to adhere to whatever the culture of your time dictates as the most likely scapegoat, which, today, is western civilization. There's no deep moral thought required to blame yourself and call yourself wretched and to prostrate yourself against the earth: Christians have been told to do this for millenia, and the most thoughtless of them do so with ease.

The only reason it seems thoughtful is because deep down, you know there's an instinct for self-preservation and self-respect you're gleefully subverting by doing so. It's just Freudian antics to get back at mommy Nature. There's no more depth here than the conundrum of God being three people and yet one person all at the same time.

>>1434698

Noam Chomsky has said the United States is the best country in the world. One should hold ones own culture to the highest standards and criticize that which you actually have the power to change.

>>1434740
You seem upset about something.

It's considered enlightened to examine your own actions with the same lens you examine others actions.

>>1434740
Most pseudo-intellectual post I've seen here all week.

>>1434752
>>1434757
I'm sorry that a 2000 year old death cult that teaches that self-defense is wicked is your idea of the height of moral sophistication.

>>1434785
I'm genuinely sorry that you are lost in some reactionary paranoia stupor and bumble in here venting your angst to no-one in particular, setting up intellectual wiffle balls to be effortlessly batted away.

>>1434751
He's also called it the most evil empire in the world along with the United Kingdom. He has a veneer of patriotism, and he happened to hit on a valid point when criticizing our meddling in nations overseas to sometimes disastrous effects, but he clearly has something against western civilization in the abstract, too.

>>1434801
Well, I'm not the one who confused the ability to empathize and rationally examine the actions of others with masochism, which is what I originally asked about. That that was your first association says a lot more about you than it does about me, friend.

But there there. You're very smart. You can do it!

>>1434752
not an argument

>>1434698
We all know there is no shortage of people willing to defend the State no matter , so why do you care that some people criticise it?

>>1434785
Holy shit. First using Sigmund "everything is mummy's fault" Freud to perform the most mad mental gymnastics to talk shit about people who don't share your blind Nationalist tendencies and then this post.
Take the fedora off, I think it's seriously affecting your capacity for critical thought.

>>1434818
Because the people who defend the state are largely those without power. Those who criticize are largely those with power.

>>1434801
creasing here

this has to be brit

>>1434825
What are you on about mate? Do you have a shred of evidence to support that? Don't you think people in power would have a vested interest in supporting the status quo?

>>1434810
Wait are you OP?
Sorry if I misattributed you. I was trying to point out OP's agenda.

>>1434833
The status quo is bourgeois internationalism. The status quo is that wars across the world are fine, while using the military to guard your own borders and only let people in when it's beneficial for your nation is racism. Case in point:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Rcc7xgD2dM

But Chompsky doesn't say any of that. He says Westerners should, not that his people should.

>>1434851

The most commonly used and accepted term for the status quo is capitalism.

>>1434879

>Magians are our enemies

Maybe.

>>1434891
>The most commonly used and accepted term for the status quo is capitalism.
Then call it capitalism. Capitalism is at war with the state, and capitalism is winning. It's now fashionable to call for the erasure of borders and to dismiss the value of any culture beyond GDP.

It's often justified to the masses with talk about colonialism and historical atrocities and appeals to being virtuous, even self-destructively virtuous.

>>1434698

It's considered enlightened because intellectuals do it and what intellectuals do is considered enlightened.

It's a fad, it'll pass as long as people keep pointing out how retarded it is.

>>1434709
Blame yourself for everything and blaming everyone else for everything are two sides of the same mentally I'll coin. Neither is "easier" than the other.and certainly not morally superior.

Academia is mentally ill and in need of a systemic enema.

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>>1434709
>You can't do anything about others,

YES YOU CAN

YOU CAN FUCKING KILL THEM

>>1434911
Neocons please go, your time was last decade

>>1434939
What, Obama isn't a neocon? Hillary isn't? Merkel isn't? David Cameron isn't? What the fuck are you on about?

Killing others isn't restricted only to being in perpetual wars overseas, anyways, so your posts is retarded twice over.

>>1434825
>Those in power criticize the State
Are you serious?

>>1434953
The Left is a political ideology of peace

Please do not oppress us with your bigotry

>>1434955
It's almost like the state is subservient to globalist corporate interests or something, and isn't actually the most powerful entity or whatever, and those who run the state are financed by these same globalist corporate interests.

Weird as fuck, right?

The political spectrum forms in a circle. The auto-censorship of the left will meet the political censorship of the right.

Fascism is alive and well and will always be. We are reaching a time where democracy and center/neutral will be a radical position.

Being a-political is impossible. The only option is a "meta-political" one.

death to the pretenders

>>1434698
Because you can't reasonably take responsibility for all the good in the world without also accepting responsibility for at least some of the bad.

>>1434740
>>1434785
>>1434816
college freshman Nietzsche fanboy detected

>>1434987
If the state is subservient to "globalist corporate interests", then criticizing the state = criticizing "globalist corporate interests". So I'm not sure what point you're trying to make.

>>1434996
>le horseshoe meme

>>1435054
>If the state is subservient to "globalist corporate interests", then criticizing the state = criticizing "globalist corporate interests". So I'm not sure what point you're trying to make.
So when Angela Merkel throws her own nation's flag away in disgust, she's really sticking it to the multinational corporations? How the fuck does that work?

>>1435054
>Because you can't reasonably take responsibility for all the good in the world without also accepting responsibility for at least some of the bad.

Sorry not sorry i haven't contributed to the growth of islam

>>1435069
>Sorry not sorry i haven't contributed to the growth of islam

If you're a U.S. taxpayer, you are indirectly responsible for contributing to the rise of Salafism purely through the fact your nation's military acts as a glorified bodyguard to the nation that funds Salafism.

>>1435054
> Because you can't reasonably take responsibility for all the good in the world without also accepting responsibility for at least some of the bad.
Except it's gotten to the point where we're not even allowed to take responsibility for the good in the first place.

>>1435380
>paying taxes
>being a dumb prole

??

>>1435054
>Because you can't reasonably take responsibility for all the good in the world without also accepting responsibility for at least some of the bad.
Notice how this masochistic tripe is always founded in arguments from virtue, never arguments from pragmatism or benefit? You have to be the 'better person', not the person who ultimately wants what's best for your people or the working class, or whoever you should most reasonably care about most.

>>1434698
cognitive dissonance douchebaggery and memes

>I want the right to do x
>Therefore i adhere with the principle that everyone has the right to do x
>and criticize anyone who doesn't adhere to x because its an attack also towards myself
>Since only civilized countries are disconnected enough to believe in x you get the idea
>What you don't want to have rights?
>Where are the limits?
>o its forbidden to talk about that

I want infinity to be infinity because i might be able into infinity

Although this is always enforced from the top down because its useful and profitable who knows how it would develop naturally

unless you consider all subsets of humanity to be part of a single group enveloped by nature of course

>>1434803
>he clearly has something against western civilization in the abstract, too.
The slobbering over the cock of Authoritarianism. I don't think it's unique to Western civ, only that he's trying to get his own house in order. He has plenty of criticism for Saudi Arabia as a malign force in the Middle East.

Read lots of Chomsky and you will see that he does not like the idea of 'bottom down' hierarchies or oligarchies dictating the direction of society. He is basically an anarchist, though I hate to use that word because most people really misunderstand it. Power ('true power') has shifted to corporations for example because it is always easier to operate where there it is murkier, out of direct control ('democratic' governments are held to high standards, democracy implies accountability, etc).

>>1435068
If Angela Merkel is criticizing the state, she is criticizing the globalist corporate interests.

>>1435536
If you have a non-meme moral philosophy, virtue and pragmatism are the same thing.

>>1435883
>If Angela Merkel is criticizing the state, she is criticizing the globalist corporate interests.
An assertion isn't an argument, you know that, right?

>>1435068
>>1435883
As a German, I truly do not think Merkel cares what multinational corporations are doing. She's certainly disgusted by nationalism, but you have to remember the generation she's from. Germans suffer hard from cultural cringe. First Nazis, then (in her case) commies. Not hard to understand why she thinks the flag is embarrassing. (I really dislike her I should mention, since I don't think it's obvious. Besides, she's CDU. She wouldn't be forging ahead with TTIP if she cared about checking the power of multinational corporations.

>>1435902
So then you claim that the state actually does not represent globalist corporate interests? If the state is controlled by globalists, and you criticize what the state does, you're criticizing the actions of the globalists.

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>It's an "Alt-Right complaining" thread

Are you being paid to regurgitate the beliefs of others on cue?

>>1434803
He seems skeptical about it, which makes you seem genuinely touchy about it.

Why is everyone here so emotionally involved in what a popular contrarian intellectual has to say? Why is it taken as a personal insult when it's assumed that we might not be the perfect freedom angels?

>>1435998
I'm claiming that Merkel isn't thinking of globalist corporate interests when she throws her flag away in disgust. She's thinking of the same thing she's thinking of when she asks Mark Zuckerberg to help her in censoring conversations on Facebook: Curbing nationalism.

>>1434910
Its actually easier in our current human culture to blame others than to accept responsibilities.

To do the opposite takes bit of mental gymnastics. However I'd agree that in some sense, laying all the blame on yourself instead of other creates an issue.

We have a responsibility as each individual to forge our own thoughts/actions/habits/beliefs/etc. Our sphere of influence is limited in a sense. Thus blaming myself for things that are beyond your sphere of influence is bit too retarded. However at the same time, if the cause was your ancestor, then I'd lay the blame to them.

You could say "MIGHT IS RIGHT" then this would defeat the entire realm of Law/Order/Morals. Then this thread becomes meaningless.

>>1436011
No, the suckers do it for free. That's what happens when you get cucked by a leather shoe with some hay on top.

>>1436065
It's so fucking cringey when the left tries to sound cool and alt-right.

>>1436081
That's because they're doing a good job of impersonating the alt-right.

>>1434753
an ok post

What are some opinions, thoughts, views, humans etc. YOU would consider enlightened

>>1436134
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ele_dj3ud38

>>1434698
Somebody just discovered Nietzsche and is using it to justify all his whining and bitching. Here's a tip: what doesn't kill me makes me stronger, if you're so confident about the values of your culture go out and meet those who "attack it" head on, show how much stronger your values are.

>>1436142
Faith, Family, Strength, Loyalty, Security, Prosperity, Discipline, Purity.

>>1434698

Because Soviet subversion in the American academy worked.

>>1436171

But you'd betray your family for your nation, right?

Obedience to a nation is implied by every part of that but family.

Which is more important? Family or nation?

>>1434753
Then why would you be masochistic and criticize yourself while defending others?
Similarly. Why defend yourself and criticize others?

Like you said, the lens needs to be consistent.

>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kbL5L4r4Ars
Do americans really think and act like this?

>>1436183

Just as American subversion in the Soviet system worked.

>>1434753
>examine your own actions with the same lens you examine others actions
Then pretty clearly the people who op's talking about aren't enlightened in the least.

>>1436158
Then what is up with faggots that are willingly trying to get their own culture killed while defending it's merits?

Or the fags that pretend that progressivism doesn't come from western values.

>>1436200
Like Chomsky? Yeah some leftist cunts do.

>>1436171
>Strength, Loyalty, Security, Prosperity, Discipline
i like those

faith is okay too, unless you subscribe to the meme religions,

explain about purity, in what sense do you mention it

>>1436200
>US should get out
>we do
>Iraq get ISIS'd

kek

>>1436217
>Then what is up with faggots that are willingly trying to get their own culture killed while defending it's merits?
They're not, though. It's right-wing propaganda. Pretty telling that the right is so desperate for votes that they feel a need to make up stories about how the left is destroying the West.

>>1436230
Sweden is a fiction of the right, apparently. It doesn't actually exist.

If you try to land a plane there, you'll just crash into the ocean.

>>1436225
Racial purity.

>>1436198

I hear leftists stand up for western values, this includes cosmopolitanism, and they always criticize cultures that reject that value.

I hear rightists criticize foreign values for their origin, not for their quality; they agree with the values.


It's like leftists are trying to clean up the game, and rightists want their team to win no matter what.

>>1436171
>Spooks, Spooks, Spooks, Spooks, Spooks, Spooks, Spooks, Spooks
ftfy.

>>1436229
ISIS is the rape baby caused by the US splooging in to a hellscape in the first place.

>>1436280
t. retard

>>1436265
>I hear leftists stand up for western values, this includes cosmopolitanism, and they always criticize cultures that reject that value.
Leftists are yuppies and stand up for yuppie values that are irrelevant to the poor like cosmopolitanism?

Whoah dude, you're blowing my mind here!

>>1436249
Racial purity is a myth, bro. Any look at haplogroup maps will tell you that. I don't like Muslims either, but the 'purest' groups tend to be the most retrograde. Think of the Khoi-San 'Bushmen' or Sentinalese or Inuit.

>>1436265
cosmopolitanism isn't a leftist value, it's an elitist value independent of 'left' or 'right'. FWIW, there are far more conservative millionaires who are 'cosmopolitans' than leftist professors.

http://slatestarcodex.com/2014/09/30/i-can-tolerate-anything-except-the-outgroup/

>>1436322
Yeah Trump is a good example.

>German father
>Scottish mother
>has kids with a Czech
>then has kids with a Slovenian

>>1435692
>Power ('true power') has shifted to corporations for example because ....
Because without the discipline of "cock slobbering authoritarians" (mild and open to discussion conservatism) society is dragged through the cracks and then exploited. Its the left that were pushing sex drugs and rock and roll onto already vulnerable working classes and destabilization of society, NOT of "the 1%". They are good boy and girls now aren't they. Don't go after those that make life chaos and feed off it, go after order and structure itself.

>>1435692
Power didn't shift to corporations. There wouldn't be diversity consultants job if it had.

>>1434753
>examine your own actions

Except his not, he's specifically blaming the US government. Meanwhile he will bend over backwards to justify his own actions such as his whitewashing of pol pot.

>>1436510
Not even him, but Eastern European countries have a large poor population and a smaller population of literal billionaires who gained immense wealth from privatization. Like fuck do we know which group do you belong to based on your country alone, retard?

>>1436527
you suspect i might be a literal billionaire?

well you could be a famous celebrity, how the fuck do i know you aren't

>>1436554

You could get higher wages if you were in a union.

>>1436564
I could also get higher wages if the labor supply wasn't flooded by virtue signalling yuppies like you who have a complex where you have to prove how tolerant you are every fucking five minutes.

>>1436579

The same people who say that those workers should be in a union to get better wages?

You are wasting a lot of effort arguing with people who don't decide what your wages are, when you could both be arguing with people who DO decide what your wages are.

>>1436566
I'm not a libertarian. Obviously they quite often intertwine, but given the chance, each set of interests would try to do without the influence of the other.

Depends where you live, but Americans are particularly naive to the experiences of the rest of the world and of course only 'understand' their own norms.

>>1436580
Yeeeees, The Left™ had a plot to force society to like rock and roll and drugs and sex. Sure pal.

'the structure' in this case is a lot shorter than listing 54 different institutions and their enforcers. If we're talking about American contexts, then we mean American law and its physical results (police, courts, political system -- which were explicitly racist)

>>1436653
t. yuppie brat

>>1436237
Every single Swede I've spoken to says it's not nearly as bad there as /pol/ says.

>>1436604
Are you an orange picker? Is that your livelihood? Has it been any Americans in large number for any time in the last 70 years? Poorfags in Los Angeles or West Virginia aren't bussing down to Florida to pick oranges, that's for sure.

>>1436653
Yeah nigger I tried applying for the CEO of Google but they weren't hiring.

>>1434955
Who do you think is more patriotic, some white trash in bumfuck, Oklahoma or some ivory tower liberal in NY or LA? Now tell me which one has more power?

>>1436638
Debt is only on paper. What are they going to do, tax your ghost when you die? You live in a society driven by consumption and accumulation, and artificial wealth is a cornerstone of that. Might as well drink the kool aid and get a loan for studies, if you can. Your children will thank you.

>>1436690
My point stands, fuck off to your containment zone.

>>1436695
>What are they going to do, tax your ghost when you die?

Is that a sophisticated way to say I should kill myself?

>>1436186
In what way can you betray one for the other? Family is a part of the nation

>>1436697
>My point
You literally posted that you didn't understand what I'm saying, how do you have a point at all here.

You should fuck off to wherever such low level of discourse is tolerated.

>>1436712
I guess in Bulgaria it's considered a high level of discourse to talk about American issues when you know jack shit about America.

>>1436653
>lmao why weren't these plebs born into a rich family like myself they deserve what they get

And I thought the left was the working man's party

>>1436661
But it's still bad?

>>1436722
Is this news to you? Socialism betrayed the working man in 1917.
>vanguard party + false consciousness
>SHUT UP PROLES WE KNOW BETTER THAN YOU
>YOU WANT THIS? NO YOU DONT THE CAPITALIST PIGS OINK OINK JEDI MIND-TRICKED YOU INTO THINKING THAT, YOU ONLY WANT WHAT I WANT

>>1436691
This is an American phenomenon though. Corporate interests have paid for both Reps and Dems. Hence Trumps' popular (populist) support, even if he is a billionaire and an utter moron on a personal level.

The left has also been hijacked (if you will) by corporate interests who beat their supporters over the head for opposing actions which erode worker's rights ("""""free trade"""""" deals, illegal work, etc). I think it's a folly to lay blame at the peons, right or left. It's similar to all the rightwing idiots nodding along to anything Fox News says.

>>1436701
I'm saying getting a fucking loan and go to school. Education is the only way out of poverty. What do you think Mexicans do with their money? Some cock fights and tequila here and there, but the smart ones put it into college funds for their kids.

>>1436735
>just get a loan goy, trust me

>>1436722
Marx was a middle class NEET mooching off his bourgeoise partner in crime and his idea of how to bring socialism was basically to make capitalism so unbearably shitty and heartless people would just spontaneously revolt and take the factories, not even joking.

>>1436720
Everyone knows about "american issues" like immigration, poverty, left/right.
People on 4chan know about american politics more than the average american that doesn't follow and you know it. This is all irrelevant though.

My family members, including myself, live on about 150$/month and believe me prices are not that much lower than in western europe.

I'll tell you for the last time you are very far away from poverty and hardship and should stop trying so hard to identify with it, because it makes you look funny.

>>1436744
>he fell for the usury meme
>he didn't invest in his human capital

>>1436764
A gigantic chunk of the already gigantic US debt are student loans and since they're government sponsored you can't even default on them.

>>1436760
No, the average foreign 4channer doesn't know anything about real America, they think they know America from /pol/ memes and TV shows. That's like me saying everyone in your country squats around in a tracksuit with a bottle of vodka because that's what all the ebin maymays are about, stop trying to lecture me faggot.

>should stop trying so hard to identify with it

I have no idea what you're even talking about. I should feel better about being poor because someone in Bulgaria is even poorer?

>>1436760
>believe me prices are not that much lower than in western europe
How much can you get a one bedroom apartment for where you live?

>>1436760
>prices are not that much lower than in western europe

Median rent in London: 1 5120 USD
Median rent in Sofia: 216 USD

You're talking out of your ass.

>>1436806
*1 512

>>1436805
Do you even know what a credit score is? And I'm a level 2 sec guard.

>>1436806
>using London, one the most expensive cities in the WORLD.
try again, dumbass.

>>1436853
Median rent in Paris is also like 4 times higher than in Sofia, so is the one in Stockholm, what now, you're going to push the goalposts endlessly until you find a western city that will fit your argument?

>>1436867
Paris now? You're moving the goal posts by choosing the most expensive cities you can. Rents in these places are driven up by the fact they are GLOBAL CITIES. That means richfags from around the world rent/own prime property, and because of their 'status' also makes even shit properties that bit more prime, and up go the prices. Not every city is like this, just your big names (basically). They do not operate so much by national patterns as global ones.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_city
Choose an Alpha minus or Beta level city for a more realistic comparison.

>>1436897
Alpha minus is shit like Munich and Vienna, you sure you wanna do this?

>>1436902
Really it should be a similar ranked city to Sofia.

http://www.spottedbylocals.com/blog/alpha-beta-and-gamma-cities/

Try Antwerp or Rotterdam.

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>>1434785
Jeezus christ anon. I can smell the autism from here.

That's funny (((someone))) seems to have deleted my posts. I can't imagine why.

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>>1434810
>>1434785
If these are the same person, I am honestly appalled at the above-normal levels of autism exhibited, and I do not say that lightly.

People need to understand not to enter conversations with attached emotional baggage and imagining the other persons will somehow understand perfectly, and then get mad when they don't.

>>1436171
I can imagine Islamists saying the same thing

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>>1434698
It's a gross misinterpretation of how enlightenment is achieved.

>>1436230
>Pretty telling that the right is so desperate for votes that they feel a need to make up stories about how the left is destroying the West.

Lmao. This

>>1436044
Tell me how indulging in self-flagellation is difficult. Enlighten me as to how saying "White europeans are responsible for all the world's evil" is more difficult than saying "Its the Jews' fault"

>>1437499
It's not and that's not what he's doing. You think so because you're an insecure faggot.

>>1437560
He seems to have some difficulty in doing it in any genuine sense anyways, if all he can come up with is "muh white guilt".

>>1437594
White guilt is an apt example though, as it's one of the current manifestations of people signalling their virtue by flagellating their race and culture. You're in the wrong thread if you can't discuss that.

>>1434740
>Actually, it's easiest to adhere to whatever the culture of your time dictates as the most likely scapegoat, which, today, is western civilization.
What culture is it exactly that makes western civilization a scapegoat? Is it Americans? Americans, who need their politicians to stand in front of 20 American flags to whenever they are accused of being unpatriotic?
Let's take a really easy example, that being Noam Chomsky's own nationality, the United States of America.
As of 2015, 54% of Americans are "extremely patriotic." http://www.gallup.com/poll/183911/smaller-majority-extremely-proud-american.aspx

So do you mean to tell me that the culture of Noam Chomsky's time and place, in which the majority is self-described as "extremely proud to be American," also uses itself as a scapegoat.
What about Soviets and then terrorists? Are those much harder to use as scapegoats in the culture of Chomsky's time, who were the ones really challenging themselves? Those who say what about 70% of people agree with, that ISIS is a major threat? Or the Soviets? Was every American president during the Cold War's position of the Soviets very out of the norm - essentially, those presidents did a great job because they kept us safe when the majority of Americans thought the Soviets were good guys but they knew better.

Stop painting an inverted picture of reality: self-criticism, or, more accurately, criticism of your own government's actions as a moral entity, is extremely unpopular. If you tell Americans they are being spied on, they call you a traitor. Our culture is authoritarian and masturbatory, not dissident and self-flagellating.

>>1437605
The problem that arises here is who defines "white guilt". The people who define it are the people saying it, and the people saying it are squeamish when people think american slavery, native american genocide or european colonialism were inhumane. So if you think, well, those weren't so bad, I guess that's the only way to avoid having white guilt. Either way, what does it matter? Doesn't the truth matter more than both?

>>1437670
>the people saying it are squeamish when people think american slavery, native american genocide or european colonialism were inhumane
I've very rarely, as in almost never, seen it used to justify the practices of slavery, genocide, or colonialism, though I do think it bears mentioning that colonialism was viewed as a responsibility by the white progressives of their day who thought that white civilization was simply too enlightened a thing not to share with natives elsewhere.

I do see it used when upper class cretins use colonialism as a pantomime villain with which to justify mass migration of previously colonized peoples into European countries, making the native poor even poorer. I do see it used when SJWs try to project slavery as some uniquely white evil, most of whom probably couldn't even name the Ottoman Empire, let alone be aware of its centuries long practices. I do see it used when people generally use these things to claim that white people today are obligated in some manner by virtue of a shared oppressive past.

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>Why is it considered 'enlightened' to lay the blame for all the horrors and atrocities of the world at your own doorstep, and to disparage your culture, and even to openly advocate for its destruction?

Because if you look back in history the clearly enlightened people are like this. The morons and losers are the opposite. There are few things sadder and more pathetic than reading an ancient nationalist from a long dead kingdom and culture desperately trying to sell their virtues to you, a perfectly detached and therefore objective audience. You see all the self-delusion, pathetic need for self affirmation, and general fear then. These are the people Percy Shelley was skewering with his poem Ozymandias. People that need to constantly tell you that they are special and wonderful usually are anything but.

In contrast you have real men like Thucydides who shine through the centuries by daring to tell the truth. An Athenian that wrote about the Peloponnesian War and was at time critical of Athens instead of taking the easy route of "hurr our side best side. we didn't do nothin wrong." that literally every other person in his day would have done. The result is real history and real intellect.

Marcus Aurelius despite his incredible power was cerebral, self-critical, and analytical about his own role in life. His retard son is exactly the kind of guy who would never admit flaw and thought everything he was ever part of was the greatest. One of these guys was a great man, and one was one of history's greatest failures. Spoilers: it was the self hating liberal nerd.

>>1434698
I'm always amazed by the sheer advancement chomsky made in linguistics. from the time he came on the scene to today, there has been at least 5 different paradigm shifts in theoretical linguistics, where before there was pretty much just documentation and description.

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>>1434785
Lmaoing at all the butthurt christcucks replying to this post

>>1437959

You mean all the butthurt /pol/ack crusader LARPers. I'm genuinely surprised the word 'cuck' wasn't used anywhere. No mentioning of DUUS FOLT either

>>1437816
There's a difference between critical self-reflection and mindlessly hating absolutely everything and everyone you've ever known. Not being able to recognize what you're doing right is just as bad as not being able to recognize what you're doing wrong.

>>1437066
Mine too. Mods spazzed out I guess. That's a shame, because overall it was a pretty civil discussion.

>>1437605
It's a real psychological condition called "cultural cringe".

I live in Germany (I'm not German), and man do Germans have massive cultural cringe. I don't want to get /pol/ because I'm not /pol/, but it helps explain a lot of German private and state behaviour.

>>1437642
>Our culture is authoritarian and masturbatory, not dissident and self-flagellating.
Indeed, but how else should it be? I have a hard time imagining mainstream culture to ever be too self-critical. History is full of Cassandras that are by and large ignored.

Snowden for example really should b applauded, and I'm sure history will remember him well, whatever happens in his own lifetime. Chomsky is, love him or hate him, exactly the safety release valve America (and the West more generally) needs. I don't agree with everything he says, but

>>1434698
Show me one quote where Noam calls for the destruction of America.

>>1436702
What if your family's beliefs and ideals differ from those of the rest of the nation?

>>1437756
>I do see it used when people generally use these things to claim that white people today are obligated in some manner by virtue of a shared oppressive past.
It IS illogical for white people to claim they deserve recognition or respect for the accomplishments of their ancestors, while also claiming they should bear no responsibility or shame for the wrongs of their ancestors. You can't choose to have only good things "count" as part of your ethnic history.

>>1439280
>It IS illogical for white people to claim they deserve recognition or respect for the accomplishments of their ancestors, while also claiming they should bear no responsibility or shame for the wrongs of their ancestors.
Sorry, who is doing this? I don't see anyone giving white people credit for dying by the hundreds of thousands in the American civil war to end slavery, but they sure as fuck like to remind them that a few very rich plantation owners kept slaves.

>>1439280
>shame for the wrongs

>civilized the whole world
>brought unprecedented progress
>slayed all the opposing savages

the only wrong thing they did was to end slavery and not exploit their victories to the furthest extent

still it was a good effort, outshining the ancient Rome. It'll have a glorious chapter in history.

>>1434698
You've got to take responsibility for your bullshit.

If you happen to be a citizen in a crazily powerful country like the U.S, you have to recognize when it fucks up and own it. Accidentally aerial bombing a fucking kindergarten counts as a fuck up.

You can support your homeland without having some kind of culty moral exceptionalism that only serves to breed more foes and resentment.

Maybe if the establishment took responsibility for the mistakes in Iraq, we wouldn't have to deal with ISIS. Humility in the powerful is the most 'enlightened' of all.

>>1434740
>which, today, is western civilization
And on 4chan it's islam

>>1434785
Wew lad

>>1434698
>your culture
for most of your nation's history your culture didn't exist

or, if you're american, for most of history your nation didn't exist

>>1439509
For most of history, people didn't exist.

>>1439509
>for most of history your nation didn't exist
Our nation and nation-state are older than most in Europe. In fact, we're one of the oldest nation-states in existence. I don't know what fuckery you're talking about.

>>1436249
Okay you can go back to /pol/ now

>>1434803
And he's right.

The U.S. is the foremost purveyor of state terrorism.

If you read Chomsky you realize that he loves the United States and thinks it's the best country on the planet for those who champion democracy. You'll see he levels his guns against all sides, not just one.

He's consistent, ethical, and thoughtful.

Best of all he's right.

When he dies there will be no replacement.

>>1434911
t. Stalin

>>1434740
lol you seem upset

>>1436081
>implying the alt-right's constant Fruedian chant of "cuck" isn't far more cringe-worthy

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>>1437816
So you're pretending to be smart by telling everyone you hate yourself?

Damn, must be sad to be you

>>1439319
Well, basically some white people like to point out how great white people are, using the fact that their ancestors were inventors, founders of countries, etc - but if you point out that their ancestors owned slaves, or supported colonialism/exploitation, etc, they say "Well that's all in the past, you shouldn't judge me for what my ancestors did", even though they seem to think they should be judged positively for the good their ancestors did. I just find that attitude to be inconsistent.

>>1439340
And you're talking about it only from a white person's perspective. Of course you see it all as positive. But that "civilization" and "progress" white people brought is also largely why child workers are being exploited in the third world. Not to mention, white people being indifferent to the cultural identities of middle easterners is a large part of why the middle east is such a mess today. You can't be proud of the positive accomplishments of your ancestors without also at least acknowledging that they did some harm.

>>1439723
Incorrect.

>>1440099
>Well, basically some white people like to point out how great white people are, using the fact that their ancestors were inventors, founders of countries, etc
Again, who? No one with power does this. Some congressman in the U.S. only just recently said something like this on television in response to someone else ragging on white people and his co-panelists acted shocked that he even dared to say it. You're cobbling together disparate arguments to invent a phantom hypocrite.

>>1440124
I'm not talking about people with power. Who ever said that was a criteria?

>>1440135
Who ever said the white race was uniquely accomplished? That didn't stop you from raising the spectre of that argument.

>>1440135
He does have a good point though,

the only white people who actively promote their own race as some kind of heroic ideal are low life degenerates who have nothing else in their wasted lives to be proud about.

If you're talking about, say, wealthy individuals with stock in private prisons who oppose criminal justice reform because more people in jail means higher stock returns, that's realpolitik, not hypocrisy.

>>1440068
>The U.S. is the foremost purveyor of state terrorism.

What exactly are you referring to here? Drone strikes? Military adventures?

It's essentially a mistake of thinking that principles which apply to personal morality can be extended to a national scale.

>>1440195
>ayy lmao lets missile strike Assad's secular govt
>now let's fund and arm this fundamentalist rebels, this is a good idea that no one ever tried before ;-)))
>proceeds to blow up, literally, in their face
>everyone acts surprised and prays that it will somehow go away if we just pretend it isn't happening

>>1440216
That's more incompetent than evil, although I would agree there are probably a few malign parties in the whole shitty situation

>>1434785
Jesus told his followers to arm themselves with swords to protect against bandits.


People need to at the very least read about the thing they criticize

>>1440231
>Jesus told his followers to arm themselves with swords to protect against bandits.
verse?

>>1440231
Meanwhile, he also told his followers to turn the other cheek if struck, and if robbed, to offer garments the the bandits were considerate enough to leave them with. And these were all very explicit orders.

Christianity is a religion that if followed to the letter would utterly destroy its adherents.

>>1437605
>White guilt is an apt example though, as it's one of the current manifestations of people signalling their virtue by flagellating their race and culture.

It's not. It's actually another form of blaming others. "White" doesn't mean liberal globalist universalism i.e. the culture of 'white' people who believe in white guilt, but the culture of conservatives and nationalists.

>>1440257
That was the point anyway. If the world was about to end, might as well go out on the best possible terms to avoid the purge and hellfire to come.

>>1440068
This. He is one our era's greatest minds. This is what it's like to be living in the era where he lives too. Relish it, because within a few decades he'll be gone.

>>1440099
>But that "civilization" and "progress" white people brought is also largely why child workers are being exploited in the third world
>citation needed

>>1440247
He only says that in a specific context, to the disciples and not to everyone in general. It's supposed to be a counterpoint to an earlier statement where he is saying almost the exact opposite, because now he is about to die and they will have to fend for themselves temporarily (That is at least one interpretation anyway, it's quite a confusing passage).
But of course, somehow we have acquired this bizarre cultural practice of separating the bible into little snippets and throwing them around without any context, this retarded evangelical idea that you can just open the bible at a random page and it will instantly tell you something profound about life.

>>1440465
>But of course, somehow we have acquired this bizarre cultural practice of separating the bible into little snippets and throwing them around without any context, this retarded evangelical idea that you can just open the bible at a random page and it will instantly tell you something profound about life.
But you're doing just that by trying to keep us from putting Luke 22:36 into context.

http://www.answering-islam.org/Authors/Arlandson/luke_22_36.htm

>>1440068
>that he loves the United States and thinks it's the best country on the planet for those who champion democracy. You'll see he levels his guns against all sides, not just one.
Did you unironically claim the man who supported (and continues to support) Castro, Mao and Pol Pot champions democracy and loves America? That is some of the most retarded commie apologist doublethink I have ever seen. Fucking kill yourself.

>>1434698

It's the newest for of European ethnocentricism hidden behind phony universalism. It is just the enlightenment inverted. Before western civilization saw itself as uniquely good and objectively ahead of all others putting us in the spotlight. Now the narrative has reversed, western culture is uniquely evil according to some arbitrary standard that we are supposed to judge all peoples by, still we are in the spotlight.

We've moved on from being the Nitezschean blonde beasts who step on others in our pursuit of mastery, to that derpy kid who constantly self deprecates in order to get attention.

It is also based heavily on American puritanism, which emphasized public flagellation and admissions of guilt, as a sign of virtue.

There is not intellectually sound reason to treat western civilization and "white people" as uniquely "evil" - there are however religious and psychological impulses that draw these trends forward, and are being manipulated by governments in order to justify more government interference into our personal lives, and to get us to stop paying attention to their abuses and corruption, and instead focus on petty, mostly imaginary, disturbances in the social sphere.

>>1440551
>citation needed
Chomsky is not a communist, which is pretty obvious if you've ever read anything by him. To say he 'supported' Castro, Mao or Pol Pot is ludicrous and a pretty well debunked smear campaign.

His point was to compare how the US (and most of its media) deem what is genocide mainly on who are their allies at the time. At the same time the Khmer Rouge were busy suiciding their country, Indonesia (an American ally) was massacring East Timorese and ethnic Chinese, which the US was completely silent about. When (communist!) Viet Nam invaded Cambodia to oust (communist!) Khmer Rouge regime only a couple years later, the US threw a shitfling because of it.

You will notice a similar pattern over and over. Chomsky's point is only to call out this hypocrisy.

The Clintons are personal friends with far far more despicable people than Castro.

>>1440505
So the scale of the problem is even greater than I guessed. You can see why the medieval church was so cautious about translating the bible

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I'd just like to point out that there is a difference between people who can look at their peoples own culture and history and think "hmm we've done some good and some bad" and people who get on social media and say something retarded like "This land belongs to NATIVE AMERICANS!!!!" and live with the assumption that the world would be a perfect peaceful place if it weren't for the ol honkies. One is a healthy thoughtful examination of culture; the other is a mental disorder in which ones extreme desire to be liked and feel "right" overpowers anything resembling a logical thought

>>1440148
Many white people say that the white race is responsible for more scientific and technological innovations than other races. And there's nothing wrong with them saying that - the problem is when people use that to claim that they themselves are superior to those of other races, even though they themselves have not done any innovation of their own.

>>1440461
None of that would be happening without globalization.

>>1434825
literally kill yourself please

>>1440998
Yes, stupid people do exist.

>>1434740
Well constructed, but your butthurt still shines through.

>>1441443
>None of that would be happening without globalization.
You blame globalization purely on white people? Whew lad.

>>1441443
that's like saying that the average person in the best team of a sport didn't do anything for the sports team to be that successful, it's the culture/genes which creates possibility in progress, which is why there's no progress in areas with shit cultures/genes, like the andaman island

brilliant people doesn't appear spontaneously across the globe in an equal thin layer

>>1442602
>progress
What a mighty spook you have summoned there for yourself.

>>1442379
White people invented steamships, airplanes, and the internet, did they not? Without those things, globalization wouldn't have happened, or would have stayed at a much lower level.

>>1442602
That's not really a good comparison though, because everyone on a team contributes to the team's success, even if they're not the best, most skilled player on the team. And since there's a finite number of positions in most sports, a poor player is actually detracting from the team's performance, since they'd be better off replacing you with someone else. What I'm talking about is more like people claiming they deserve special recognition for coming from a town that a lot of great soccer players come from, despite them themselves not being a good soccer player.

>>1443599
>White people
define "white people"

Because it wasn't that long ago that Catholic Irish, Italians, Germans and Jews were not considered proper white people, so do their contributions count or is "white person" an arbitrary reflection of modern biases?

>>1440741
>When (communist!) Viet Nam invaded Cambodia to oust (communist!) Khmer Rouge regime only a couple years later, the US threw a shitfling because of it.
>You will notice a similar pattern over and over. Chomsky's point is only to call out this hypocrisy.

Hypocrisy.

I guess you're not aware that Chomsky dismissed the genocidal nature of the Khmer Rouge as mere "tales" used for anti-Communist propaganda. Or that he went on the warpath against those who reported the genocide as it was happening. In this, he was the perfect reactionary, intent on historical revisionism -- not to mention a cold-blooded ideologue.

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>>1440741
>>1443975

Well, he did eventually come around to acknowledging the genocide.

But he continues to justify his role in how it was portrayed in international media.

So much for honest introspection.

>>1443988
Remember: If you don't admit your mistakes, and you always side with the state; you're never wrong!

>>1443991

Same goes with never admitting your mistakes and always siding against the state.

Just never admit your mistakes. Be more like Chomsky!

>>1443901
I'm referring to those people that fall under the modern category of "white people". Which is what I assume was what everyone in this thread is using the term to mean.

>>1443599
It takes two to tango, m8. Globalization began before steamships. You could argue it began with exploration and colonization in the 'modern' era, but this was not exclusive to Europeans.

I'd argue that something about globalization seems to be intrinsic to human nature. Globalization is often used in a negative sense, but it has also brought much good to the world. Modern technology has only helped it spread, but to lay it solely at the feet of white people is fucking retarded and only evidence of your White Industrial Guilty complex.

>>1443975
I suppose you've gained your info from right-wing blogs. Again, Chomsky is not a communist, nor a communist apologist, and is quite critical of them.

It's 40 year old history regardless. Even if he made a mistake about the scale of murder 40 years ago, so what? The dead are still dead, and not by his hand. It doesn't really change what he has to say about society today. I neither deify any 'intellectual', nor expect them to be perfect.

>>1444004
Admit your mistakes if you're Chomsky, and the reactionary right will jump on it for the next 40 years.

>>1444544
>I suppose you've gained your info from right-wing blogs.

I suppose you think that because you're ignorant of his vehement denial of the Khmer Rouge genocide.

>Again, Chomsky is not a communist, nor a communist apologist, and is quite critical of them.

>I neither deify any 'intellectual', nor expect them to be perfect.

But you are acting as an apologist for his wildly reckless actions in the past and failure to atone. Yeah, he didn't commit the atrocities, but he used his tremendous influence to deny and cover them up.

Naughty naughty!

>>1436265
>Rightists
Anyway, no. Leftists defend foreign cultures that are antithetical to western values, but attack westerners for holding the western values against the ones that break it despite hailing from different cultures.

>>1444648
>I suppose you think that because you're ignorant of his vehement denial of the Khmer Rouge genocide.

Not that guy, but he did eventually admit it happened, he just asserts that given the information he had available at the time, his initial conclusion wasn't unwarranted. In short, he's never apologized for his initial denial.

>>1434698
Because it proves that you're impartial to your own culture for one

>>1444710
Why? It is still an irrational bias.

>>1437816
Maybe I'm misinterpreting the thread, but op isn't talking about pointing out real, present flaws.
For instance, plenty of people will admit the Iraq war was a mistake, and that our actions in the middle east created ISIS. ISIS is an immediate issue.

People in the US whipping themselves over slavery is not an immediate issue. Its been long since abolished, and it has no real bearing on the country now. And yet people still bring it up and shit all over the country for it.
Its the same with Germany and the Holocaust. These are just a few examples of things that have little to no bearing on the present. And yet they are used as an excuse to make self destructive decisions (Mass immigration, race baiting)

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>>1437816
>Marcus Aurelius despite his incredible power was cerebral, self-critical, and analytical about his own role in life
>self hating liberal nerd
what

>>1444694
>In short, he's never apologized for his initial denial.

Aye. Nor for his vicious attacks on the reporters who got it all right.

>>1444828
That neither. I can see where his stance can stem from, but I strongly disagree with it.

This is a bit off-topic, but I think it is tangentially relevant to the OP's post:
How do you determine when a person's beliefs are "genuine" and that they are not simply regurgitating the beliefs someone else told them to have?

>>1440074
>>1442240

Samefag

>>1444895
You can't.Certainly not by how they post in a chan.

>>1444648
I am well aware of the accusations, as I've already implied in my first response to you. Again, they're a well-known and standard buzzpoint of the rightwing blogosphere.

First, 'tremendous influence'? Chomsky? Lol. Second, he obviously didn't cover them up. I think it's understandable how in those early days before the full weight of evidence was out, that an ideologue like Chomsky would roll eyes at the American media crying wolf as they often do. He certainly got it wrong, but this was a time when American military was using the spectre of Commie baddies -- justified or not -- to go free reign. Hindsight is always 20/20, isn't it.

>>1444756
The holocaust is very much still living memory for a lot of people, although they are now elderly. It has strong bearing on the present, more than you probably realize.

>>1444834
How noble of you to take that stance 40 years after a squabble. I suppose you're against the holocaust too?

Introspection and self-assessment is valuable, if you care about your nation, and its moral status/authority. I don't agree with Chomsky on much, but self-criticism is more in line with peaceful aims, than blaming everything on some Other. On a personal level, we can consider blaming ourselves for conflict we find ourselves in, vs. blaming others. If you find yourself constantly in conflict, chances are you are doing something to instigate it.