1. was china the richest/strongest civilization for most of world

>>1434187
ancient china was a mess, vintage china was a mess, future china is going to be a mess

with the exception of imperial japan for about 20 years, no people in the history of earth give less a fuck about their neighbors, countrymen, humanity, or the planet than the chinese

>>1434187
China has always been the central power in the East, and long time ago was equal to or more sophisticated than western society, but fell behind in technology and science a long time ago. China being better than the west is a mostly a meme if you're past Roman times.

China will always be the strongest power in the East because of geography.

Between about 600 and 1200 AD, probably, though the Islamic world was about on par. Other than that, no, but they were always the best in East Asia until the 19th century.

>>1434267
>though the Islamic world was about on par

You mean the Persian world, regardless of Islam.

>>1434267
Europe was shit compared to China until the 18th century. Don't kid yourself.

>>1434187
No. They were only the strongest during the Tang and Yuan dynasties, and even that's arguable.

>>1434209
>China being better than the west is a mostly a meme if you're past Roman times.
That's stupid, Rome was better than the Han.
The west was overtaken when at the fall of both empires, one fragmented into small kingdoms while the other just changed dynasties but remained whole.

>>1434321
But I will admit Pax Romana was superior to Han China.

>>1434334
>That's stupid, Rome was better than the Han.
By what metric?

inb4 meme chart with Roman/Han iron production.

>>1434426
Every metric related to power. They had a larger industrial production, a similarly sized but fully professional army, a bigger population, etc..
Even the average wealth was higher, there have been studies on that. CBA to go look for them, but they're very talked about so you probably heard of them anyway.

>>1434209
I thought China was going to a serious threat to America though?

>>1434484
hahahahahahahahahahahaha

>>1434187
Japan could BTFO China (3 times in a row) if not because the US keep cockblocking them, can't wait for glorious Abe to change constitution.

>>1434487
Well, that's what I keep hearing. I'm uneducated on it.

Is there an article or something you can link so I learn?

>>1434438
>They had a larger industrial production
Maddison is outdated.

>a similarly sized but fully professional army
Conscription had its own strengths. Han had the resources to arm their conscripts.

>a bigger population
Roughly the same

>Even the average wealth was higher
No,Han tax revenue was far higher than their Roman equivalents.

>>1434484
I never understood this meme. A huge part of Chinese economy are American / western companies outsourcing to China and manufacturing cheap shit they can export to the US. If American economy and their world's #1 consumer collapsed, China would go down in flames.

In other words, China directly profits from a prosperous America.

>1. was china the richest/strongest civilization for most of world history?
That concept hasn't existed for most of history. What's the point of being more powerful than, let's say, the Aztecs when you don't know they exist?
>2. was that fated? will china continue to be the strongest civilization?
No.

>>1434321
False. France, Netherlands, Spain etc. all went past China due to colonialism way before the 18th century.
>>1434426
>meme chart
Based on historical and scientific research and facts. Iron production was artificially restricted in the Han Empire, which is why it is so low.
It's more than any Sinoboo has.

>>1434524
I've never really understood it either, hence why I was asking.

I find stuff like this interesting though http://yournewswire.com/china-secretly-purchases-hollywood/

>>1434524
It's the same thing as Guns, Germs and Steel but in economics. It's popular with the public, but with academics not really.

China is in an extremely poor situation, they rely on exporting heavily and especially the pacific sea yet in the end have only negligible military presence compared to the U.S.

U.S could destroy Chinese trade in a day, but why would they do that?

This thread will go to shit when the massive Sinoboo who claims everyone in Asia loves China enters the thread though.

>>1434515
>Conscription had its own strengths.
Han style conscription used to destroy villages and ruin provincial economies.
The main problem with conscription is that they're barely trained and inexperienced, not that they aren't armed anyway.
>Roughly the same
Still lower. Rome doesn't have to be much stronger to disprove OP's claim, marginally is good enough.
>Maddison is outdated.
>No,Han tax revenue was far higher than their Roman equivalents.
Post newer shit then.

>>1434533
>Spain.
Yeah, no.

In the 1600s the Spics here in the Philippines always worried that China or Japan will be offended at one point and go to the Philippines and massacre them. Hence many placating Missions were sent to the two.

There were two close calls in which the Spics collectively shrank their balls: 1590s, the ultimatum delivered by Hideyoshi to Spain ordering them to stop sending Catholic missionaries least he massacre them in the Philippines (didn't happen because Hideyoshi went for Korea instead), and in 1640s when rogue Ex-Ming Admiral, Koxinga, threatened to take over the Philippines as a base to reclaim the mainland and gave them an ultimatum (didn't happen as Kox died of Malaria).

In both instances the Spics panicked to the point that evacuation plans were made and the campaigns versus the Southern Philippine Muslims were continuously halted, leading to their independence from Spain compared to the rest of the Islands.

Chinese can't understand research of history.

>>1434533
>Based on historical and scientific research and facts.
Based on shoddy comparisons of two separate methodologies.

Needham/Wagner's estimate assumes that there was only 50 iron offices and each iron site was restricted to one blast furnace with an output of 100 tons.

He contradicts his own estimate by admitting blast furnaces should have an output of several hundred tons.

Not to mention archaeology has already proven that there were more far more than 50 iron offices and that larger iron offices had multiple subdiaries with multiple blast furnaces.

The Roman estimate is based on a random iron consumption per capita and extrapolating that number on the Roman population.

>>1434563
>marginal military expedition on the other side of the world is scared of regional power on his own grounds.
No shit, but it has no bearing on who's "stronger".
The very fact that Spain was sending those expedition and actually acquiring land, while China couldn't already speaks volume.

>>1434267

>>1434326

Ming China, from 1368 to 1644, was the richest country on Earth:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_regions_by_past_GDP_(PPP)

Some Westerners might dislike Ming China, but it was the apex of Chinese civilization.

File: Chinese export Porcelain 1756. Don Quixote.jpg (200KB, 1000x1029px) Image search: [Google]

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>>1434577
>While China couldnt
1) No point
2) They could if they wanted to- as evidenced by private colonies set up by Chinese Merchants.These werent funded by the government at all but by Kongsis ("Trade Conglomerates.") At the very least they were trade post, but at the greatest they were actual states with private armies n shiet like the ones in Indonesia's "Kongsi Republics."

OH and I forgot to add: the top export of Spain to China was....tobacco. Trade was almost one sided with China only interested with Spain's fantastic ability to pay in silver. Beyond this, Chinks werent interested in what Spain had to sell. Maybe just in Tobacco and a Chilis. Spain meanwhile ate up all things chink.

Funnily enough, this was even true of the 18th Century. Only France and its doodads interested China (i.e. Mechanical clocks and the like) while Spain -at this point, declining- was just an afterthought.

>>1434635
>private colonies set up by Chinese Merchants
In Europe?

>>1434650
...we were talking about Southeast Asia?

>>1434657
We were talking about setting up colonies on the other side of the world. Which for China would be Europe.

>>1434562
>The main problem with conscription is that they're barely trained and inexperienced, not that they aren't armed anyway.
2 years of mandatory military service + 1 month of training every year after?

Conscription allows for far easier replenishment of casualties. Regardless,the Eastern Han transitioned to professional mercenaries.

I'm more curious to whether or not Han 6 stone crossbows could pierce Roman armor.

>Still lower. Rome doesn't have to be much stronger to disprove OP's claim, marginally is good enough.
I'm referencing historical censuses not modern day estimates which are all over the place similar to the Mauryans.

>Post newer shit then.
Scheidel for one and even he admits its skewed towards elites.

His works on the Juyuan slips show that even frontier soldiers were paid a respectable wage.

You have passages in Chinese texts that record revenue in grain and the the equivalent of grain in cash.

>>1434197

Actually, China has stated that in the future it will consider greenhouse emissions to be an act of aggression, and are willing to go to war over it. They care about global warming because historically speaking, floods have brought down entire dynasties. Flood prevention has been the basic principle of governance since the Xia dynasty.

>>1434187
1) richest yes, due to the massive territory and population. Strongest, not really, they had tons of civil wars and past the red turban rebellion they basically stopped developing militarily

2) china is not, in the modern sense, strong. It has no real sphere of influence. But due to the idiocy of US foreign policy, it may overtake us

File: 1_AD_to_2003_AD_Historical_Trends_in_global_distribution_of_GDP_China_India_Western_Europe_USA_Middle_East.png (123KB, 1280x763px) Image search: [Google]

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You can only guess. But during early history economic output per capita was about the same everywhere. So the biggest population meant also biggest economy. For most of history this was India. Followed by China.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_regions_by_past_GDP_(PPP)#World_1.E2.80.932003_.28Maddison.29

>>1434197
Poor bait

>>1434197
>or the planet than the chinese
Kek.

Literally every piece of modern technology you are using is somehow based off of chinese inventions.

>>1436504
>>1436509
+50 cents

>>1434563
>Spics
You clearly don't understand what this slur is aimed against. Kill yourself.

>>1434500
Lmao gonna be interesting seeing Japan get nuked again.

>>1434503
He's retarded

>>1434524
Why exactly do you think China wants to destroy America and vice versa?

>>1434541
How is that relevant?

>>1434553
China's exports are 10% of the economy. That compares to America with 8%.

Also, China's navy alone far outweighs America's forces near China.

>>1434571
Nice bait

>>1434769
No they have not stated that.

>>1434788
>it is not strong

Which is why they set up their own World Bank alongside 80 other countries over US opposition?

>>1434905
Pretty much

>>1436519
>I have no argument so I shitpost

>>1436542
t. xiang

>>1434187
No.
No.

File: global-trade-routes-1400-1800.png (392KB, 919x540px) Image search: [Google]

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>>1434209
China was better than the west until the Brits hooked the Chinese on opium and reversed the trade situation.

>>1436537

>no they have not stated that

read between the lines you bai gui, why would China build all those artificial islands if the Greenhouse Effect simply sinks them. It's become a military liability.

>>1436537
Looks like the sinoboo has showed up.

>>1436537
>China's exports are 10% of the economy. That compares to America with 8%.
No it doesn't. To put it bluntly, the Chinese people are still too poor for China to not be too reliant on exporting. It doesn't have enough internal consumption, like the U.S. Chinese growth is entirely reliant in selling to the west.

>Also, China's navy alone far outweighs America's forces near China.
No, they don't. The Chinese don't have anything near the naval capacity of the U.S and it doesn't matter. The U.S could just stop trading with the Chinese. This would harm the Chinese more than it would the U.S since the Chinese are in a more replaceable position than the U.S is.

>>1436599
Not true. I know this is Wikipedia but go have a read https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_regions_by_past_GDP_(PPP)_per_capita

The Netherlands for example quite handily became per capita richer than the Chinese years before the Opium wars.

>>1436662
I warned y'all.

>>1436599
>That trade route from Peru to Manilla over the North Pole

What the fuck?

>>1439140
The Chinese elite grew fabulously wealthy and were powerful enough to take Taiwan from the Dutch, Europeans were just errand boys until the great cuckening.

>>1439153
>were powerful enough to take Taiwan from the Dutch,

Oh man, the Chinese were powerful enough to take an island literally off their coast from a nation 2/3 the world away? Holy hell. Now I realize why da white man tried to keep down da Chinese. They just were such a menace.

In a more serious note, the Chinese could have beat any European state in a war before the 18th century, Yes. That doesn't mean they were richer.

>>1436599
on the triangular trade

slaves from africa sold to americas 0 slave
raw goods from america sold to europe 1 primary
manufactured goods from europe sold to africa 2 manufacture
and the services sector make huge gains in between 3 services

>>1439159
chinks havent had a respectable navel power since the 1400s
u guys are high

>>1439148
That's the pacific you mong

>>1439163
In a defensive war I meant.