Is there any legitimacy or substance to Wicca whatsoever or is

>>1426555
It's just LARPing that got way out of hand.

>>1426555
It's mostly edgy women that didn't grow out of their edgy teenage girl phase

>>1426558
>>1426584
I guess the thread can end, now.

>>1426555
>is it just edgy teenage girls going 'fuck you mom and dad we witches n shiet i aint goin to church no more'
Yes

>>1426555
It has substance. As for "legitimacy", I don't know how you'd measure that.

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>>1426555
They claim to have been Europe's "Original religion" before Christianity. Saying that their two Gods (The male hunter god and female fertility goddess) were worshiped since forever by Europeans. I've also read from Wiccans that claim that Roman/Greek/Norse Gods are actually just the two Wiccan Gods, and that any additional Gods were either made up or not worshiped, which is very untrue. Most of the time when they're called out for being a "neo pagan" religion they get upset and blame Christianity for "destroying their documents and records of worship". I believe that Wiccans have some things right but a majority was made up in the 1960s. So no, there is very little legitimacy to Wicca. Any neo paganism today is an attempt to rebuild religions that we don't have a full amount of information on, so it's mostly guessing and filling in blanks.

>Is there any legitimacy or substance to Wicca
No.

> is it just edgy teenage girls going 'fuck you mom and dad we witches n shiet i aint goin to church no more'
That, and old hippies. There are a few cool Wiccans out there, but for the most part the religion is a farce. I mean, sure, whatever works for you, but no one will ever take you seriously. The cool Wiccans you never really know are Wiccans because they keep that shit to themselves.

Any religion that demands nothing of its adherents is just fanfiction and masturbation.

>>1426763
What do you consider demanding something of the adherents?

Does it have to be physical?

>inb4 Cracked isn't valid

at least they source their shit which can't be said for this board

http://www.cracked.com/article_18510_6-supposedly-ancient-traditions-that-totally-arent_p2.html

>>1426763
But it does? You need to worship the two Gods with an altar of tributes and there are holidays and such that you must participate in as a Wiccan. So it does demand from it's followers. You are correct though that it can be very fanfiction tier though.

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>>1426782
>with apologies to our Pagan friends
Yeah, """"""pagans"""""" really deserve apologies.

>>1426757
As such it should be mocked and rediculed. If your daughter buys a Wicca book, burn it.

Wicca, Odinism, Asaratu, "heathenry", etc, are all almost entirely modern creations by revivalists and Crowley-type esotericists.

It's similar to how in the 1800s you had medieval revivalists running around in fake suits of armor and jerking off about chivalry.

>>1426784
But do you have to sacrifice a part of oyur body for your god? Oh, you dont? lul fake religion.

There is a difference between

Wicca, a religion founded in the 20th century which has specific tenants, beliefs, etc, that are rooted in mythology but not actual historical pagan practices.

and

"Wicca," which is what gets promoted in 99% of books that are predominately bought by teenagers going through a phase which may or may not last the next 30 years.

"Wicca" is basically "lol yeah worship a god and goddess it can be anyone or ones you want!!! Spells are just like prayers n' stuff also pick a cool Wicca name!" and the authors of these books just kind of throw together various pagan and neopagan beliefs and concepts and run with them.

Granted they are both ridiculous.

Its for feminist tumblrinas who are pissed that western religions all have masculine gods.

>>1427338
It was developed by men in the 1920s

>>1427370
Yeah, and My Little Pony was made for children, but we all know how that went

>>1426555
No. It's a joke. The only people who worship it are relativists who want all the cool stuff of religion without any of the requirements of the adherent, mixed in part with aging feminists and SJW cunts who only follow it because "muh female empowerment!!!"

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>>1426555
It has plenty of substance, it's just that the edgy teenage girls you describe don't join for substance. Some of us are actually not walking stereotypes, believe it or not.

>>1427708
fuck off, edgelord.
your """"religion"""" is a sham.

>>1427708
>Harm none
Why not?

>>1427733
To give a pretense of demand and restriction to the "faith."

>>1427733
>Why not?
That's what Satanism is for

>>1427731
All religions are a sham, anon.

>You're daughter decides to practice Wicca

How do you respond /his/?

>>1427805
I thought I told you about them spooks.

btw family is a spook too, my property.

>>1426555
Witches were the "priests" and priestesses of old Pagan religions. You gotta think, before people sold fire wheels and understood how to make fire, it must have seemed like something only a magician could do. Same with healing/medicine among other things. These guys were the precursors to doctors and scientists and were highly regarded. Could they actually do magic though? Depends on what you call magic. They did have a high understanding of astronomy and the way things worked, perhaps to the extent that they could see the fabric of fate, and even manipulate it.

>>1427805
meme answer: le ebin christian crusade knight man
honest answer: "I don't care"

>>1427338
There's a male god in Wicca too I think.

Male god and female god. Duality and all that jazz.

>>1427805
Make fun of her a lot.

She'll probably grow out of it by 19 at the most.

>>1427820
>They did have a high understanding of astronomy and the way things worked, perhaps to the extent that they could see the fabric of fate, and even manipulate it.
astrology is bunk

>>1427849
Proof?

>>1426782

How valid neopaganism is depends on the what pagan religion the neopagans are trying to emulate.

>>1427870

also that part about Islam. lmao. I knew I shouldn't have read the full article.

As legitimate as Satanists

>>1427859
Compare all the different horoscopes sources.

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>>1426555

Wicca is a meme

this old kook who was really into ritual knives invented it, claiming to have been initiated into a legit centuries old coven

there is some substance but nothing occult or hidden from the masses, just general stuff from Margaret Murray

actual witches are real though and have been around since before Christianity, they're just extremely secretive and it's mainly a family-based tradition, passed down generationally

unfortunately, it seems most legit crypto-witch families have been subjugated by Satanists and Freemasons as mine was, essentially harvesting our bloodlines for ritual power

I focus my craft more on my matrilineal Irish midwife ancestor rather than than the occult elite I'm descended from, Crowleyan-influenced Masonic rituals (cult programming really) and all that harmful bullshit

I do think it's better that most people get into the virtually harmless surface level occult stuff like Wicca and neo-paganism, messing around with more "legitimate with substance" covens, cults, and secret societies is just begging to be manipulated and mind-controlled

>>1427837
Yes, in general the horned male god is the guardian of and role model for men as is the female goddess for women.

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>>1427911
>actual witches are real though and have been around since before Christianity, they're just extremely secretive and it's mainly a family-based tradition, passed down generationally
And are just twats who huff sulfur all day.

>unfortunately, it seems most legit crypto-witch families have been subjugated by Satanists and Freemasons as mine was, essentially harvesting our bloodlines for ritual power
Nice victim complex, you fags ARE satanists.

>U focus my craft more on my matrilineal Irish midwife ancestor rather than than the occult elite I'm descended from, Crowleyan-influenced Masonic rituals (cult programming really) and all that harmful bullshit
You have no craft. You have no power. You have no heritage. It's all garbage that deserves to be forgotten like the rest of European polytheism.

>I do think it's better that most people get into the virtually harmless surface level occult stuff like Wicca and neo-paganism, messing around with more "legitimate with substance" covens, cults, and secret societies is just begging to be manipulated and mind-controlled
And I think it's better if they all out abhor, condemn and abolish all things "witchcrafty." It's spiritual gambling and superstition.

>>1427911
>it's the Great Pumpkin, Charlie Brown!

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>>1427985
the irony here is that the Roman Catholic church has been infiltrated at the highest levels by Luciferian occultists

>>1428008
exactly why i love that pic

>>1428051
>Roman Catholic church has been infiltrated at the highest levels by Luciferian occultists

Quit reading Chick Tracts faggot.

>>1428062

lmao that's not all how i know that, but Chick is a stopped clock

>>1427985
>You have no craft. You have no power. You have no heritage. It's all garbage that deserves to be forgotten like the rest of European polytheism.

Where's your god's power?

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>>1428086

mostly based on victorian era revival of renaissance ceremonial magic, and satanism, but they hate to be associated with the latter

Wow. It's a superstitious people calling each other's superstitions silly thread.

>>1428106
You could argue that with the loss of its power since the Italian Unification, the Catholic Church is currently in the dustbin of history.

>>1428629
Just because it doesn't have a standing army it doesn't mean it's dead.

It's gonna take more generations for it to erode.

Margaret Murray wrote a book about how the persecution of witches was in fact a persecution of traditional rural pagans and that Satanic sabbaths were in reality pagan festivities worshipping some cuckold horned god and a mother goddess. The book has long been debunked by real historians and ethnographers as absolute horseshit, but this didn't stop dyke feminists from attempting to recreate this "cult", usually in a form of frustrated obese women cosplaying as witches with random occult symbols that are commonly associated with Satan worship.

Wicca has some solid foundations to it.

The problem is that it's overpopulated by people trying to profit off of teenage girls.

Drawing Down the Moon gives some good philosophy for it, but it's hard to find any other book that isn't constant period blood rituals and obsessing over the matriarchy instead of realizing that the religion they are attempting to revive had patriarchal pantheons. Sure, Danu was the mother of the Irish gods, but she didn't rule over them and women were viewed as irrational and as property throughout the Ulster cycle that the Celtic focused Wiccans seem so big on.

>>1426757

The duotheistic aspect is entirely where Wicca loses it's ground. They try to claim that all the gods are just those two, but they presented themselves as different people based on situation and time. Yet, we have multiple stories that say the gods were on the battlefields and would fight each other on occasions.

About the same amount as any other religion (none).

>>1429359
>>1428795
>>1426757
All these

Wicca is an edgy phase for teenage girls who think everyone before Christianity ate mushrooms in the woods and danced naked for the goddess(es) when in reality most celtic/germanic pagans did not allow women to hold religious "office" (druids) and had a hierarchy of gods adopted from the Hellenistic-Roman pantheon.

I'm a Pagan myself and it's upsetting the current Pagan revival is being led by tumblr goths and Asatru viking larpers.

>>1429468

Well there was some girl that was dug up that MAY have been a female druid that was widely respected, but the lack of any stories about her show how important she was as a whole. She was oddly shaped anyway, so it was probably some kings illegitimate child that he had tucked away.

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>>1426555
>Is there any legitimacy or substance to Wicca whatsoever

Compared to what?

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>>1429533
Horns can mean many things, the use of horns as a sign of cuckolding dates from the 15th century onward as a sign of being unaware of the adultery. Remember, "cuckold" referred to someone who was cheated on and not the "watching your wife get fucked" as it's used online today.

Also this may be a case of christian countries misappropriating pagan symbols to discredit the religion, like Pan's cloved hooves = satan, venus/morning star = lucifer, sacred groves = dark and scary woods where evil resides

>>1427708

why follow a shit tier new relgion when you could have a respected old one?

>>1429468

Any books I should read if I want to learn about "true" paganism?

>>1426555
I truly, honestly, really don't understand how you can join a religion whose origins are openly pragmatic.

What the fuck? Christianity makes sense. I don't believe it, but it makes sense. Because it's founded on the belief that supernatural events happened in history, and gave us a message.

You can't believe something without believing that it's true. Right? Isn't that what belief is? How can you believe that something is true, when the people who made it up wrote books about how they made it up?

>>1431200
>Christianity makes sense.

>>1431320
But it does! Christianity is exactly the sort of religion that I would join. Because it's really a belief about history. Being a Christian is like being someone who thinks that Vikings discovered America. You believe that a specific thing happened in history, and accept the logical consequences. I can understand that.

What is going on in the mind of someone who says "Hey, this made-up religion is neat. I'll believe it." I will never understand. Belief isn't a fashion statement, it's a stance on what is true.

>>1429533
Those are antlers, not horns, in both pics

>>1426757
>Wiccans that claim that Roman/Greek/Norse Gods are actually just the two Wiccan Gods, and that any additional Gods were either made up or not worshiped,
Wait, does that imply their own gods aren't made up? I thought it was like an Alan Moore/Glycon thing where you recognize it's not literally true but practice it anyway.

>>1429366
I'm not defending this meme religion or anything but why wouldn't they just claim those stories of gods fighting each other are false?
It's not as though their mythology can be true if they don't reject the majority of other mythologies and religions anyway.

>>1431472

Probably because that kills their whole approach to saying "everyone is right".

They'll even let you say Jesus or Yahweh is the male god if you really want and that Mary is the female goddess.

They literally care about nothing other than fantasy now. Which is unfortunate because the initial tradition that was just about the polarities of male and female wasn't that bad.

It's a proto-New Age new religious movement that establishes legitimacy among members with unverifiable claims of being an old religion dating back to the middle ages.

It started out as a mid twentieth century adaptation of the occult themed secret societies popular among unemployed aristocrats and bored civil servants in the Victorian era, adding in a persecution myth with a built-in association with the medieval capital crime of witchcraft. However, there really isn't much continuity between Wicca and the medieval concept of witchcraft.

Wicca is now mostly popular among feminists, nerds, hippies, and fantasy fans, but most of its appeal lies in rejecting monotheism and believing in the self as a channel for "magic(k)" via deities.

>>1431092

Because the Big Three have sacred texts that include what many would see as antiquated prohibitions against fortune telling, homosexuality, eating certain foods, and inter-religious conversion, sometimes recommending a death sentence. Obviously that would have made sense to people in the when and where of those texts as first written down, but some of those selections are focused in on by people who prefer fundamentalist readings at the expense of the rest of the text. This of course leads to a negative interpretation of those religions, leading more rebellious spirits to reject them in favor of a newer, less stringent alternative.

I believe in a Christian interpretation of God but can see where someone in the modern west would become upset with the Old Testament over some of its sentences, prohibitions, and laws.

>>1431804
>I believe in a Christian interpretation of God but can see where someone in the modern west would become upset with the Old Testament over some of its sentences, prohibitions, and laws.

Ceremonial Vs Moral Law and centuries of exegesis in light of the Gospels toward what the OT should mean to followers of the NT. It's also kind how Marcionism became the heresy we know today.

>>1431424
No they believe the two Gods are real, but only the two Gods. At least, some of them do. I'm sure there are others that are more liberal and allow others to exist but I've read from some trying to force feed their religion into others. Ex. "Only the Nordic peoples worshiped the twin Gods, which they called Odin/Wodin and Freya. " This is really not true at all because why are there Mjolnir symbols from the viking era that imply Thor worship as well? It's just sad that they need to make up history to feel legitimate.

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>>1427911
>rather than than the occult elite I'm descended from

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>>1431152
Pic related - "A History of Pagan Europe." Broadly covers European paganism by region, the reasons for its decline, and a little bit about modern day pagan revivals. Very good book.

Kemetic wicca does try to maintain some semblance of the traditions of the Egyptians, and some new forest wiccans do try to follow Cernunnos of ancient Gaul.

I'm actually interested in studying up on Alexandrian Wicca.

>>1426757
Sounds like WEWUZism to me.

>>1429468
>I'm a Pagan myself and it's upsetting the current Pagan revival is being led by tumblr goths and Asatru viking larpers.

Yeah because 4chan "Hail Odin" retards would be a much better front for it.

How can anyone be a pagan anyway. Paganism isn't a religion, it's just a term used to describe any non-abrahamic religion. Do you just follow all of them?

>>1432611
What makes people think you can just worship the Egyptian gods when there's no priests or Pharaoh? It's not some kind of smorgasbord.

>>1432815
What makes you think they can't? One can worship whatever they wish to worship. Whether these gods will accept it or not is between them and these gods.

>>1432597
Alright, will look into it.

>>1426555

as legitimate and substantial as any other religion i guess

>>1427805

>DAD IM A WICCAN NOW


>Ok honey! Dinner in 15 minutes.

>>1426555
Wiccan girls are the best fucks desu.

>>1431409

how many languages actually differentiate between the two? I know mine doesn't

>>1433081
If you like pounding hamplanets

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>>1432788
4chan "Hail Odin" retards = Asatru viking larpers

I give offering to an amalgamation of Celtic, Germanic, and Roman deities, as well as the spirits of the local pagus. Pagan isn't a religion like the Abrahamic ones are, they're not dogmatic and are incredibly adaptable to other's beliefs. The Romans for example believed every culture has their own gods distinct from their own (or in a different form of their own), and would often adopt a foreign deity into their own belief system as a mystery cult (Mithras, Isis). In the initial conquest of Italy the Romans would even pray to a city's patron deity before besieging it.

I, like some Romans believed, think all higher powers are distinct and individual yet ultimately spring from the same "oneness." This starkly contrasts with Christianity/Islam/Judaism, who think practitioners of all other religions are being deceived by the devil.

>>1427837

Depends. There are some groups of Wicca that believe in only a female divinity.

>>1436174

It's more that they don't worship the male one because he dies every year and then he's absent until the goddess rebirths him.

It's such a weird religion.

>>1436317

Not really. Modern version of a classical mystery cult or a Victorian secret society, but obviously more open.

>>1426877
I'm kinda agnostic to Hellenism if that counts. It seems closer to what the evidence suggests than the abrahamic mythologies.

>>1426555
edgy teenage girls pool for true alpha male satans to pick and choose from

>>1427985
>It's all garbage that deserves to be forgotten like the rest of European polytheism.

No irony or hypocrisy at all.

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>>1427985
>It's all garbage that deserves to be forgotten like the rest of European polytheism.
>OH COME ON, IT'S 380

>>1431804
Reminder that the Big three are
>Christianity
>Islam
>Hinduism

Followed by Chinese Folk Religion, Bhudism, Taoism, Shinto and Sikhism.

>>1439047
I think one of the reasons Jewdaism is considered a Big 3 is because it's the foundation of the Big 2. The other reason is the high level of control the Juice have over media and academics.

>>1434065
The Roman's also insist to translate most gods names into Roman. Like when they talk about how Germanics hold great reverence of Mercury. And how the Celts claim descent from Pluto.

>>1439084
That's a silly way to do things.

And I thought it was atheists from the Askenazi ethnicity that were the meme merchants.

But anyway if our going to follow the foundation logic you should also be including Samaritanism since that's (more or less) the foundation of the whole Abrahamic set.

>>1426757
They should thank the catholic monks for recording their tales

>>1427370
Wasn't it a woman named Margaret Murray who first wrote a book about it in the 1920's?

>>1439197

It was Gerald Gardner in the 1940s-50s

>>1438990
How? It's "1 does everything vs several do everything."

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>>1439024
>mass human sacrifice
>treating the physical world as divine
>superstitious and doing shit like leaving twins to die because it wards of evil spirits that live in the cursed forest 30 yards away
>no orthodoxy in belief
>pic unrelated

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>>1439034
>zuchettos are better than fedoras

>>1440595
>treating the physical world as divine

The physical world should be treated as divine. The idea that we must venerate some fictional other world is a sickness of the mind that needs to be cured.

>>1440622
You do realize the fact Abrahamics don't worship the physical world was why we got to a position where we can freely use resources without being afraid of divine retribution for mining sacred mountains, logging cursed forests, hydroelectrics in the river that we believe is a god etc?

>>1440647

And would you consider overgleaning natural resources without considering conservation to be a net positive for humanity?

>>1440647
>You do realize the fact Abrahamics don't worship the physical world was why we got to a position where we can freely use resources without being afraid of divine retribution for mining sacred mountains, logging cursed forests, hydroelectrics in the river that we believe is a god etc?
Israeli here, I can confirm you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. The Orthodox here throw a hissy fit if you so much as dare to build a house near anywhere someone named in the Torah is rumored to set foot. The Palestinians are even worse in that regard.

>Didn't you know Muhammed set foot in that river?! You can't irrigate from it!

>>1426555
No. Wicca is total Bullshit.

>>1431152
Campbell's The Masks of God.

>>1426555
ever since the religious experience died with the advent of two horrendous wars, people have been searching for something meaningful or some sort of experience even if it has no meaning it is still an experience.
This is what gave rise the paganism, there are forces, dark and terrible forces, people pursue these because it gives them hope of a something more than a sad existence on a dying world that declares endlessly that existence is futile.

>>1441485
>ever since the religious experience died with the advent of two horrendous wars, people have been searching for something meaningful or some sort of experience even if it has no meaning it is still an experience.

Except that most people from a religious background remained a part of their religion after those wars, and those who left did so as an expression of a personal division, not a broader societal shift

>>1431152

This will be hard to do unless, cliche ahead: you read Greek and Latin texts, or other ancient texts, in the original. Most of what you will find published about Paganism on bookshelves is from a very New Age/New Religious Movement perspective, and is written to reinforce the founding narratives of Wicca, Neo-Druidism, etc.
Even reading books about European mythologies won't help you much, because most are watered down or bowdlerized secondary sources, and the few that aren't are usually either weird conspiracy-minded anti-Pagan polemics, or academic folklore and anthropology studies that consist of educated guesswork. There are some genuinely good pop mythology books for understanding Hellenism or the Norse pantheon, but a lot of those are diluted or overly simplified based on the author's background or out of a need to reach a broad audience.

>>1441122
>conservation from the Biblical standpoint of "be good stewards of the garden that I created"
>worshipping nature like a pantheist who thinks an Oak is literally a physical manifestation of a god
>ConfusedAnimeGirl.jpg

>>1441122
Then Christians or whatever. Although, that's a bit closer to Historical Preservation rather than a pagan worship of Nature as divine. It's like if I was a billionaire and tried to build a McMansion on top of the site of the Wounded Knee Massacre or something since both examples you give don't involve thinking a part of nature is literally a god.

>>1442015
>conservation from the Biblical standpoint of "be good stewards of the garden that I created"

But that isn't the case. The typical view is that nature was created for the benefit of man, and thus any utilization of it is fitting.

>worshipping nature like a pantheist who thinks an Oak is literally a physical manifestation of a god

Considering the physical world to be inherently important, rather than some sort of waiting room for your eventual death, and a staging ground for the eventual transition of it into yet more heaven, is not necessarily the same as viewing every arbitrary detail of it to be sacred. You do realize that the Romans and Celts were both quite capable of engaging in utilization of natural resources, right? Hell, even the fucking Germanic tribes were capable of it.

>>1442027
>The typical view is that nature was created for the benefit of man, and thus any utilization of it is fitting.
And what is it you're supposed to do with a garden again? Oh yeah, exactly that.

>>1442027
>Materialism

>>1442095
Believing the physical world to be inherently important is not synonymous with materialism.

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>>1429366
This idea is that there are male and female "forces" or "aspects" in the universe, and that each god is a manifestation in the collective consciousness of some aspect common to individual consciousness made up of these forces. The gods are thus, higher paragons of particular modes of thought or philosophies, and thus naturally conflict with one another, both externally and internally.

When one sets forth on a specific task, one reconfigures one's psyche into the mold of one of these gods to summon forth and better mirror the aspect of paragon in question, thus, the Wiccan religion and various other New-Age compliments, offer a honing of personal energies through, yes, roleplay and multiple personality disorder.

Some folks decided this wasn't silly enough, and thus the chaos magicians came, meta'd it up, in and started mimicking cartoon characters and memes, figuring one symbolic manifestation of a specific mode of thinking is as good as any other.

...and then there's Bob.

>>1429468
>I'm a Pagan myself
How? Why?

>>1443209

>How?

Be spritual but not follow Judaism

>Why?

Because some people aren't interested in following a warped religion that has abandoned philosophy and theology in exchange for encouraging mindless adherence to an outdated text with permittance of questioning.