Can we celebrate the triumph over the attempt to push a Vati

>>1298307
>criticizes racism, inequality
>conservative

>>1298311
>being conservative means hatting niggers and oppressing women

>>1298311
Welp, however you feel about it, it's dead now.

>>1298307
>check other articles by him

>"The Myth of Germany's EU Dominance"
>"Islamic State State Is Just an Umbrella Brand for Hate"
>"Orland Tragedy Proves Trump Wrong, Not Right"
>tons of other anti-Putin/Trump/Euro right butthurt

Sounds like the guy I want to see get BTFO. Good work to the Eastern Orthodox.

File: jew starbucks.jpg (46KB, 500x461px) Image search: [Google]

46KB, 500x461px

>>1298328
>bershidky

Why must /pol/ always be right?

File: 234096.b.jpg (138KB, 350x500px) Image search: [Google]

138KB, 350x500px

>>1298307
And yet again, the faith of Christ was truthfully preserved. Makes me happy and proud.

File: 017rublev troitsa.jpg (746KB, 1300x1619px) Image search: [Google]

746KB, 1300x1619px

>>1298335
Also

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AE1FzSC8DBs

>>1298335
What about the turkish domination of orthodox church.
I'm sure it had some effect on it.

>>1298365
>turkish domination of orthodox church.

wut?

>>1298365
Such as?

Cuck status
[] cucked
[X] uncucked

Why do Jews always criticize Christians, but never criticize radical Judaism like that rabbi who said "goyim exist to serve us"?
Or maybe they do and I'm unaware of it?
I don't know, but it looks awfully hypcritical.

File: not an argument.png (90KB, 480x364px) Image search: [Google]

90KB, 480x364px

>>1298425
>why

Do you really need to ask?

I think I'll end up converting to orthodoxy. Vatican II is more than enough proof that the gates of Hades have prevailed against the CC. Ortho church might have lost her capital Constantinople to the Turks, but that is merely a worldly good; at least it she hasn't lost her soul. The story of Job teaches that God tests the ones he love the most. Even under the harshest circumstances however she has preserved her the faith, while the RCC, having all the money, power and influence to fight the world, has capitulated to the spirit of the world. It's heart breaking but true, every honest person must admit. Only lukewarm, crypto atheists and liberals approve of Varitan II.

>>1298471
Excuse me for the typos. I'm on my phone.

>>1298471
>Ortho church might have lost her capital
Our capital is Mount Athos. The monastics are the heart of the Church

>The story of Job teaches that God tests the ones he love the most.
Amen
"If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you."

>>1298438
Catholic Mexicans moving to America is far, far different than Muslim Arabs moving into Israel and you know it. One can almost perfectly assimilate, the other has a literal death wish against Jews.

>>1298311
The Gospel is for all nations, friend. And the absolute rampant excesses of neoliberal greed we see in the world today are anathema to Christian teaching.

>>1298307
Satan has been enthroned in the Vatican since V2.
Even so, the Eastern Church is still legally in schism since 1453.
We really need to fix the Western Church and reunite with the Eastern Churches, we did it before in 1439, I'm sure we can do it again.

Council of Florence II when?

>>1298471
>at least it she hasn't lost her soul
She has ever since the anti-westerns in the Orthodox Church and the Turkish Sultan ordered the Eastern Church back in Schism.
The Roman Church is in a dire place, but she is still the One true Church and nothing's going to change that.
We can only fight and pray against the heresy in our Mother Church.

>>1298512
Mass immigration always means death for the native population. Be it mass immigration of Anglos to America and Australia or of Arabs and negroes to Europe.

>>1298512
I thought the original Palestinian terrorists were all Christian and commie?

>>1298512
Israel has strict laws against immigrants from all nations. The Anti-Defamation League opposes the U.S. having laws restricting Muslim immigration. It's okay for Israel to feel threatened by Muslim immigrants, but not for the U.S.?

>>1298525
>The Eastern Church is not communion with Satan so they are schismatics
Really?

>>1298495
>Our capital is Mount Athos.
No, it's the first see. Monks on that island trying to be mouth-piece of the Church is uncanonical.

>>1298525
>back in Schism.
Technically, the schism never got mended, since it wasn't ratified by the eastern synods(which was a obligatory step).

>>1298536
Yes, because the Church itself is not Satanic, but the people within it who is trying to destroy it are.

>>1298561
>No, it's the first see.
That's purely a formality, and one that can be freely shifted to any other See.

> Monks on that island trying to be mouth-piece of the Church is uncanonical.
Don't know whether or not you realize this, but most of the writings the Church uses to settle doctrinal disputes come out of monasteries.

>>1298307
So a bunch of irrelevant slavs and greeks stay irrelevant?

Shocking news.

>>1298525
How can you have Satan sitting on the throne (your own words) and not admit that Hades has prevailed against it? Vatican was not a lucky coup by a minority. The majority of bishops voted it, the majority embraces it. Pope Francis was elected by the college of cardinals knowing full well who he is. The Vatican isn't under siege or the pope kidnapped like in other times. It's the very bishops and supposed successors of the apostles that are doing this. mean, I don't know what else they need to do to convince you other than downright changing the symbolism to stereotypical Laveyan satanism or Judaism or Islam.

>>1298471
Me too

Gotta love Vatican II

>The Church regards with esteem also the Moslems. They adore the one God, living and subsisting in Himself; merciful and all- powerful, the Creator of heaven and earth,(5) who has spoken to men; they take pains to submit wholeheartedly to even His inscrutable decrees, just as Abraham, with whom the faith of Islam takes pleasure in linking itself, submitted to God. Though they do not acknowledge Jesus as God, they revere Him as a prophet. They also honor Mary, His virgin Mother; at times they even call on her with devotion. In addition, they await the day of judgment when God will render their deserts to all those who have been raised up from the dead. Finally, they value the moral life and worship God especially through prayer, almsgiving and fasting.

-Nostra aetate

>But the plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator. In the first place amongst these there are the Muslims, who, professing to hold the faith of Abraham, along with us adore the one and merciful God, who on the last day will judge mankind.
-Lumen gentium

File: 320px-Spas_vsederzhitel_sinay.jpg (66KB, 320x619px) Image search: [Google]

66KB, 320x619px

>>1298307
Bump for the glory and the beauty of the one true Eastern Orthodox Church.

Matt Heimcuck pls go

Brother Nathanael (the redpilled jew wo LARPs as an orthodox priest for some reason) was also reprimanded IIRC and the orthocucks said they're against racism explicitly

jesus was a jew

File: image.jpg (35KB, 512x288px) Image search: [Google]

35KB, 512x288px

You people make me SICK to the stomach. Catholicuckoldry, not even once. Not even not even once. A less than zero number of times if it was possible.

>>1298317
Considering how the concept of racism was invented by communists and criticism of inequality is associated with the left. Yes, a conservative criticizing racism and inequality is not a true conservative.

File: into_the_trash_it_goes.jpg (105KB, 398x503px) Image search: [Google]

105KB, 398x503px

Oh, look, another Christcuck thread.

File: solzhenitsyn.jpg (466KB, 722x463px) Image search: [Google]

466KB, 722x463px

>>1298328
http://www.themoscowtimes.com/opinion/article/illusions-gone-im-leaving-russia/502173.html

>here I should make another confession: despite my knowledge of foreign languages and my Jewish ethnicity...

The thing about Jews and Russia is that they still feel anger at Russian people over the pogroms of the late XIXth and early XXth centuries. Even after they sent millions of Russians to their death when they leaded the Soviet Union, even after they looted Russia and sent Russia to poverty of crime and prostitution in the 1990s, it was not enough. Jews will only feel satisfied in their revenge over uncle Schlomo store being burned in Kishinev when Russia is destroyed, when Siberia is taken over by the Chinese and Russian women are shit upon by Arab Sheikhs in Dubai.

That's how these "Russian" Jews who live in the West and write about Russia feels. That's how they shouldn't be trusted on any issue concerning Russia and Orthodoxy.

>>1298583
Go lick some refugee feet

>>1298512
Mexicans also have a death wish against whites.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/La_Raza_C%C3%B3smica

>>1298512
>can almost perfectly assimilate

But they don't, they set up their ghettos and the crime rate goes up

File: cubhusbandoshowingoff.jpg (101KB, 1080x1080px) Image search: [Google]

101KB, 1080x1080px

Orthodoxy is a failure.

Consider that it is not very "universal", in the sense that Protestantism or Catholicism are. Whereas Catholicism and Protestantism have gained a foothold on a diverse number of different peoples in various regions (the Americas, Europe, Asia, Africa) across ethnic lines, the Orthodox churches continue to be overwhelmingly ethnic: that is, most members are of Eastern European persuasion (Greeks, Russians, Ukrainians, other Slavs and Balkans). It's status as an ethnic religion also lowers its status somewhat in that most people only ever embrace the religion more as a sign of cultural pride than actual religious devotion. For example, despite Russia's purported "Orthodox revival", actual church attendance is extremely low, and most people only ever admit to being Orthodox because doing so is part of the Russian 'identity', not because they particularly put their stock in the belief.

What few converts they obtain are invariably history afficionados (what would be called LARPers here); their very ethnic nature prevents most people from wanting to join or convert, and that won't change despite the lip-service here and there from some higher-ups, because in all honesty, all the members - from lay people to leaders - want it to remain the ethnic club they are accustomed to have.

As a religion, it has failed.

>>1299273
Religion is not a brand. Faith is not a pastime.

May the Lord have mercy upon your ignorance.

Orthodox Christianity is the true, authentic faith of Christ. Whether or you think it's "marketing is not so good" is irrelevant.

>>1298512
>One can almost perfectly assimilate
i suppose getting beheaded isn't that different from getting shot

File: consider_za_warudo.gif (944KB, 500x281px) Image search: [Google]

944KB, 500x281px

>>1299613
>Religion is not a brand
>Faith is not a pastime.

Yes it is.

>Orthodox Christianity is the true, authentic faith of Christ

As if countless denominations didn't say the same exact thing every single day; some of them on this very board. The entire "only we represent God's will!" is such a tired and hollow phrase: why would anyone believe you, when the Catholics, the myriad of Protestant denominations, the Oriental Churches, and Muslims all claim the same? Can you give a real reason besides "m-muh tradition"?

>Whether or you think it's "marketing is not so good" is irrelevant.

On the other hand, it's of utmost relevance. Religions die, and with them goes their deity. Yours is nothing special, and will vanish one day. The important thing, however, is that the Catholics and Protestants will be remembered for having had large followings, whereas the Orthodox churches will be remembered as only being an ethnic club.

>>1299692
>As if countless denominations didn't say the same exact thing every single day
Orthodoxy has better claim to that title than most, and I say this as a lapsed Catholic. I don't think anyone can seriously question that the Patriarch of Rome went rogue in declaring himself more important than the other patriarchs. I think it was ultimately beneficial, because a strong central authority is important in a religion and Orthodoxy lacks that, but Catholicism and its various offshoots are not the Christian Church as it was originally intended.

>Religions die, and with them goes their deity.
Not quickly. Judaism, Zoroastrianism, Hinduism, Jainism, Buddhism, Taoism... I honestly can't think of many religious denominations that have well and truly died out. I'm pretty sure even Manichaeism is still a thing, though I'm not certain. We've even have a few Celtic/Brythonic pagans around, even if they're retarded, and though they're few in number there are still folks who claim to worship the Hellenic pantheon. Granted you don't see many Messalians or Cathars around these days, and you probably won't find anyone profession the old Egyptian or Mesopotamian faiths, but religion seems fairly static as far as anything in our world can be static.

I told you the Russian Chruch was going to have none of that ecumenism.

>>1299613

This.

Stick the tip of your penis into boiling water and see how that feels. Once you have finished screaming and screaming and screaming then imagine how that feels all over your body. Your whole penis, including under your foreskin, your eyeballs right to the back, your armpits, your face, in between your toes, the backs of your arms, your testicles, the inside of your butthole all submerged in boiling hot fire, forever and ever, for billions and billions and billions of years, for infinite numbers of years, beyond your counting, for all eternity.

That's the choice you are making when you decide not to join the Orthodox Church.

File: maxresdefault.jpg (43KB, 1280x720px) Image search: [Google]

43KB, 1280x720px

>Some steps toward more ecumenism and more openness would already constitute serious progress for what is now the most conservative of Christian denominations.
Ahem

>>1299692
>As if countless denominations didn't say the same exact thing every single day

It doesn't matter what they say.

The Orthodox Church is the most authentic, that's a historical fact.

File: orthodox priest.jpg (399KB, 900x585px) Image search: [Google]

399KB, 900x585px

>godcucks

christianity was a mistake

>>1299808
>The Orthodox Church is the most authentic, that's a historical fact
Just because your particular socio-religious construct stopped completely developing at one point in history doesn't make it anymore "authentic" faith-wise than compared to any other christian church out there

>>1298307
Ask an orthodox christian how to be saved.

They have no clue.

They say "join my church".

>>1299879
>They have no clue.

That's not true. Every Orthodox Christian knows salvation is through theosis only. You don't even need to be a member of the Church to achieve theosis. That is the true way of Christ.

Unlike the Catholic sect where you have to "join and pay taxes to go to heaven".

>>1299911
>theosis

In Eastern Orthodoxy deification (theosis) is a transformative process whose goal is likeness to or union with God. As a process of transformation, theosis is brought about by the effects of katharsis (purification of mind and body) and theoria ('illumination' with the 'vision' of God).

Everyone who believes this is going to end up in hell.

>>1299922
>Everyone who believes this is going to end up in hell.

okay, Satan

>>1299911
>theosis

Literally satanic. Literally Gnosticism.

>>1299922
Kek, Catholics to Orthodox are what Protestants to Catholics. Labeling their innovations as if they are original doctrine, and deeming everyone who doesn't kowtow to them to hell.

>>1299931
Yes, if you believe that, which is found NOWHERE in the bible, you are going to end up with your father, satan, in hell, forever.

Enjoy!

>>1299911
>>1299922
orthodox christianity is an ethnonationalist reactionary movement, nothing more

>>1299938
>found NOWHERE in the bible

Keep lying, Satan.

>Philippians 3:9
>Romans 5:1

Salvation is through faith, and faith alone.

>>1299939
Orthodox Christianity is the less innovative form of Christianity, not totally pure, but the closest.

Catholics on the other hand changed the doctrine again and again and again and again. Sometimes accepted the things which it fought against(for example filioque)

>>1299935
Roman Catholicism and Eastern Orthodox are two legs on the same statue.

That statue ends up like this:

Daniel 2
You watched while a stone was cut out without hands, which struck the image on its feet of iron and clay, and broke them in pieces. Then the iron, the clay, the bronze, the silver, and the gold were crushed together, and became like chaff from the summer threshing floors; the wind carried them away so that no trace of them was found. And the stone that struck the image became a great mountain and filled the whole earth.

>>1299963
So you changed from "theosis", a purely satanic Luciferian doctrine, to mumbling something about "faith".

Having faith will not save you.

Everyone has faith.

You don't know how to be saved, ergo you're not saved.

>>1298512
>almost perfectly assimilate
No

t. San Antonio

>>1299977
>Everyone has faith.

No.

Theosis is the path of faith. It is the only way to salvation.

>>1299977
>>1299922
Lord have mercy, you don't know what you're saying.

I just got back from Greece and you should know that Christianity is EVERYWHERE there. It is everywhere and it is there in the most beautiful way. Icons are in every store, beautiful little chapels (with open doors) are hiding all around Athens and every girl with a bit of class has a cross around her neck. I was in the hotel watching TV (which I couldn't understand) but they actually showed a famous YouTube video of an Israeli politician talking shit about African refugees, then cut to scenes of the Turkish army doing drills on the Aegean coast, then cut to scenes of ISIS then to a photo of Elder Paisios. This was on channel 6 or 7 in the heart of Athens, their biggest city. Greece is based as hell and the people devout AND educated.

Anyway, I came back home and I'm in shock as to how hidden away and taboo Christianity is in the US. I miss those icons, they are truly holy works of art. Go to Greece, and pay attention to the faith there. It will make you live God more. That country has tremendous faith and it is definitely because of their Church tbqh

>>1300162
Basically, what I'm trying to say is that the US is godless and pagan compared to Greece.

File: image.jpg (305KB, 640x1136px) Image search: [Google]

305KB, 640x1136px

>>1299783
He better explain this

File: image.jpg (283KB, 640x1136px) Image search: [Google]

283KB, 640x1136px

>>1299970

>>1298307
>has not changed since the Dark Ages

The Eastern Orthodox church didn't exist during the dark ages.

>>1300357
This. The Eastern Church didn't exist until the Donation of Constantine threw them into a political hissy fit.

File: image.jpg (4MB, 913x3072px) Image search: [Google]

4MB, 913x3072px

>>1300357
>the dark ages
>real

>>1298307
What the hell is Vatican II?

>>1300491
Second Vatican Council aka the liberalization of the Catholic Church

>>1300491
It's a Catholic Ecumenical Council of the 1960's that, among other things, recognized all Orthodox sacraments and the Orthodox as a church (the Orthodox still, technically, do not recognized the Catholics as a church, but only as a heresy), and said the baptism of all Christians is valid (Orthodox still only recognize Orthodox baptisms as valid, any prior baptism to conversion only becomes valid when you convert).

File: Pope - kopie.jpg (87KB, 748x496px) Image search: [Google]

87KB, 748x496px

Who sedevacantist here?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sedevacantism

>>1300525
>if I don't agree with the Pope, then he's not the Pope
Do you consider any of his Sacraments valid?

>>1299245

Jews have this eternal grudge against the Germans as well.
What we see everywhere now is an agenda which aims at the total destruction of both the Russians and Westerners.

File: eden.jpg (18KB, 261x244px) Image search: [Google]

18KB, 261x244px

>>1299966

The purest is gnosticism.

>>1300584
Gnosticism doesn't even acknowledge Jesus to be the Christ of the Old Testament, so not technically Christian

>>1300510
>>1300523
Thank you.
I've seen this word a couple of times recently on different right winged media.
Does it have anything to do with the situation told by Bella Dodd in her book called School of Darkness - communist sleeper agents infiltrating Catholic offices and shifting ther views to the left?

>>1299933

I remember when I was considering to become a teacher of Catholic religion. I was in the process of rediscovering my faith and at first I was enthusiastic about my choice. I talked to the priest who oversaw the course and there I noticed his hostility towards mysticism. I was a bit taken aback by his scepticism, but at first I thought it was because he didn't want it to be conflated with New Age stuff.

But then when I met the bishop of my region. An eye opening experience.
He was only interested in my parents jobs and if they had done the sacraments. I felt like I couldn't talk to him about some of the most profound mystical experiences I've had in life. That seemed to be irrelevant, these most transformative moments in my life.
I left that night making an excuse and never returned to the classes again.
I abandoned catholicism, but I didn't abandon spirituality.

I remember how out of place I felt, moreso than I ever was in any other group, and even there I felt out of place.
There was truly something toxic about the environment.

I'm still searching. I feel there's something about orthodoxy and how indeed at its core there is theosis.
The very fact the meaning of life is union with God and how "being part of the Church" isn't constitutive of salvation, that speaks more to me than this communist party tier logic of the Vatican.

>>1300602
I don't know if it was communist, but it was probably Freemason. Look up Propaganda Due, for instance: they were very, very anticommunist, but they also infiltrated the Church. John Paul was also very, very anticomunist, but he kissed the Quran.

Masons are more the elite globalist cronies of the West than the USSR.

>>1300602
No

>>1300602
No it's Jews forcing the Church to act, it's not Commies. After WWII, the Jews became powerful enough to do this.

>>1300602
Also it's no coincidence that the Ecumenical Patriarch (Athenogoras) who did more than anyone else to reconcile Rome and the Orthodox Church, was later confirmed to be a Freemason. He was the one who lifted the anathemas, and Mount Athos consequently struck him from their prayers.

>>1298307
>Be catholic.
>Be orthodox.
>Go to hell.

>>1300625
>do this
I mean "to put pressure on the Church to modernize"

Honestly, I'm not an expert on the topic but this is what I suspect. If the Jews wanted to they could use their media power to do to Catholicism what they are now doing to Islam.

File: St Paul the Apostle.jpg (42KB, 338x468px) Image search: [Google]

42KB, 338x468px

>the liberals who already disagree with us are mad at us

>>1300633
who confirmed this, and where?

>>1300615
>>1300622
>>1300625
>>1300633
Thanks for answers again.
Interesting, I'll certainly look deeper into this topic (freemasons also).
There was another story I've read where a man suddenly died on the street and his briefcase was observed. It contained documents on the same topic: infiltrating the Catholic Church and using it for a group's own purpose.
The alleged documents were collected and published as a book, titled something like the A238 Documents. Sounds like a typical hoax story, but stranger things happened, right?
Anyone knows anything about this?

I wouldn't be surprised though, the Catholic Church has been objectively shifting to the left beginning with the second half of the century, it is especially obvious with the present pope.

>>1300625
>Communists
>Not being just another subgroup of the international Jewery
I just didn't want to reveal my power level, senpai.

>>1300672
A Freemason lodges lists him as a "famous member"
>Patriarch Athenagoras was a Mason, a member of lodge «Αρμονία»[8]

>>1300680
source?

>>1300673
It wouldn't surprise me. Roberto Calvi was a Mason who had very close ties with the Vatican and was murdered by his fellow Masons to ensure a cover up. Carmine Pecorelli was a journalist from the same lodge who was also murdered in the coverup.

File: beest.jpg (49KB, 300x436px) Image search: [Google]

49KB, 300x436px

It truly feels like this is a Manichean war between Masons and the community of Christ...

And I'm still not sure which side I should be on.

>>1300688
It's on their site
http://www.grandlodge.gr/%CE%B1%CE%B8%CE%B7%CE%BD%CE%B1%CE%B3%CF%8C%CF%81%CE%B1%CF%82/

I can't read Greek, but Constantine quoted and translated it before

>>1300696
Why choose between a commie 'dude weed lmao' hippy and Jews that want you to buy in to the democracy and liberalism memes so they can rule you via Orwellian and Huxleyan means?

>>1300710
And is this validated by any third party source? a scholarly source.

excuse me if I dont trust Constantine to be the most unbias source of information on a patriach she is on record as disagreeing with

>>1300633
>>1300672
>>1300680
>>1300688
>>1300710
>>1300718
https://translate.google.hu/translate?sl=el&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=hu&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.grandlodge.gr%2F%25CE%25B1%25CE%25B8%25CE%25B7%25CE%25BD%25CE%25B1%25CE%25B3%25CF%258C%25CF%2581%25CE%25B1%25CF%2582%2F&edit-text=&act=url

I don't see a MEMBERS area, it could be because it lies deeper into the site though.

File: just wu wei-ing.jpg (41KB, 717x508px) Image search: [Google]

41KB, 717x508px

>>1300696

None.
Having lived in China for a while, I really felt more at peace with myself spiritually than in the West, which is infested with all these eschatological "time is nigh, pick the right side or perish!" ideas still.
It's not the best place in the world really. And I'm not saying the communist party or the imperial days are what's good for China, but there's something about the lack of factionalism that's extremely beneficial to the individual.. and which I think is something that the East is doing right.

This gang war of ideas that's so endemic to Western culture resulting in all these infighting doctrines that is really troublesome to the mind.
This being forced to pick sides for your own and the world's good. This constant paranoia over your fight being the just fight and what not...
In China the whole idea is that you have 3 teachings and they don't exclude one another necessarily, but can all merge to lead you to live a fulfilling life. That's it. Don't be worried if you're more of a Confucianist than a Taoist. You won't be send to the worst of conditions for eternity.

Try saying that to the West without some raging retard coming at you for squandering your eternal soul by doing so.

>>1300736
Here they list some members.
I couldn't find "Athenogoras".
https://translate.google.hu/translate?sl=el&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=hu&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.grandlodge.gr%2F%25CE%25B1%25CE%25B8%25CE%25B7%25CE%25BD%25CE%25B1%25CE%25B3%25CF%258C%25CF%2581%25CE%25B1%25CF%2582%2F&edit-text=&act=url

>>1299273
As an orthodox this is sadly true
One example: when macedonia left jugoslavia the local church has separed from the serbian one
Religion follows politics not otherwise

>>1300525

Luther-tier

File: smug anime grill face.png (404KB, 588x598px) Image search: [Google]

404KB, 588x598px

>>1300636
>Be Protestant
>Shitpost
>Go to hell anyways

File: re2.jpg (317KB, 1872x1025px) Image search: [Google]

317KB, 1872x1025px

>>1300750
They removed his name.
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php?topic=47937.35;wap2

>>1299245
>Jews will only feel satisfied in their revenge over uncle Schlomo store being burned in Kishinev when Russia is destroyed, when Siberia is taken over by the Chinese and Russian women are shit upon by Arab Sheikhs in Dubai.
But any sane Westerner endorses this dream? You don't have to be a Jew to want to see Russia destroyed and your women sold as whores to Arabs, Anon.

>>1301612
Oh well an Orthodox forum, thats a solid source.

It seems like every Catholic or Orthodox bishop that pisses off the conservatives is secretly a freemason! strange that

>>1299613
I am glad to see another brave, authentic Orthodox Christian on this board.

>>1301653
But that post is right, Athenagoras was on that list. They removed him for some reason, along with several others, like Meletius (who is still listed as a Freemason on the Orthodox Wiki, linking to the following page as a source).

If you want evidence for that removal, it's very simple: the page for "famous Greek freemasons" (still in the address) doesn't have anyone on it, so it's obvious the page's purpose was altered
http://www.grandlodge.gr/Famous_gr_home.html

You can call it a conspiracy theory all you want, it used to be a serious issue. If you want a book on it, try Florovsky's "Ways of Russian Theology" (which is a history of the Church in Russia, not really a theological tome), it covers Freemasonry's relation with the Church extensively.

It's not that Masons are evil, it's that they look for the truth behind all faiths that unites them, and that is a very ecumenical outlook incompatible with the Church. They aren't Marxists or anything, more Enlightenment liberals.

>>1301750
>You can call it a conspiracy theory all you want

Catholics rant about it too. Francis has brought it up and in tern conservatives accuse him of having links with them.

Thus I have a great deal of skepticism concerning such claims from conservative Catholics and Orthodox.

Show me some neutral third party backing up such claims

>>1301757
Catholics actually dealt with a major scandal involving Masons, don't you know about the Banco Ambrosiano? The events were fictionalized in the Godfather Part III

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8fCOP0LsyHE

Given how decentralised Masonry is how do you know if things like propaganda due and the masons in Mexico/france are representative of them as a whole and that it was masonry that played a causal role

>>1301797
The Church is just as decentralized, so I'm unsure of your point.

File: Original.png (321KB, 500x414px) Image search: [Google]

321KB, 500x414px

>>1301564
>implying

>>1298307

>114 posts before Constatine the Orthocuck shitlord comes in

Orthodox miracles do happen

>>1298322

T. Adolf Akbir

>>1301810
>The Church is just as decentralized, so
Not really there is no Pope like figure within masonry and there are no Patriarch like figures either. Their organisation seems to be closer to the congregationalist model we see in Protestants.

>I'm unsure of your point.

With the above in mind put simply "is masonry a causal factor in some of the anticlerical attacks weve seen in history and are modern masons apt to do the same"

>>1301864
Masonic Grand Masters are equivalent to bishops.

>>1301878
>Masonic Grand Masters are equivalent to bishops.

How so? They seem closer to priests if anything.

Was my other point clear enough for you?

>>1301904
>How so? They seem closer to priests if anything.
No, priests are representatives of the bishop; the bishop is in charge of a territory, priests represent him. Originally priests and bishops were the same thing, but that changed when territories started to have more than one parish in them.

>Was my other point clear enough for you?
No, because I've already said that the Masonic attitude toward finding the truth behind all religions is incompatible with the Church, it is innately and fundamentally at odds with us.

"Pope Francis' enormous popularity -- his Twitter accounts in different languages have a total of about 30 million followers, about as many as Bill Gates and more than Adele -- is a consequence of his openness to diversity and a softer approach to dogma. He "
>This was earnestly meant as a compliment
Jesus christ, can they get someone who hasn't lost total touch with any sense of the sacred write the articles on fucking religion? This is the written equivalent of playing a gameboy at the Louvre.

>>1301820
But Luther IS in Hell. Unless he repented on his deathbed.

>>1301915
>No, priests are representatives of the bishop; the bishop is in charge of a territory, priests represent him. Originally priests and bishops were the same thing, but that changed when territories started to have more than one parish in them.

I was talking in the sense that the lead the activities more so than administrate.

>No, because I've already said that the Masonic attitude toward finding the truth behind all religions is incompatible with the Church, it is innately and fundamentally at odds with us.

But thats not actually the question I was asking - I was asking if the anti clericalism from those few examples are representative and a systematic feature of Masonry.

>>1301947
>I was talking in the sense that the lead the activities more so than administrate.
No, they administrate.

>I was asking if the anti clericalism from those few examples are representative and a systematic feature of Masonry.
Anticlericism is not the issue, especially if clerics are Masons. The issue is importing the ideology that all religions describe the same truth.

File: OWaUVX6.gif (2MB, 580x433px) Image search: [Google]

2MB, 580x433px

>>1299771
>That's the choice you are making when you decide not to join the Orthodox Church.
There are so many religions that say that and none of them can provide any reasons to follow their particular dogma.

File: Pope John Paul II In Prayer.jpg (75KB, 999x1399px) Image search: [Google]

75KB, 999x1399px

I've got a bone to pick with you Orthodox bashing Catholicism for trying to roll with the times and adapt to changing circumstances. My question is: where the fuck have YOU been?

The Catholic Church has been having to deal with a wholly atheist, secular challenge to God's will for six hundred fucking years now. Starting with Machiavelli and Luther, we've been having to fight back against challenges, not that we believe in God wrongly, but that God doesn't exist at all. And it hasn't just been morons who have advanced this atheist cause. Some of the most brilliant minds in history--Calvin, Spinoza, Kant, Hegel, Nietzsche--have been teeing off on the Church and on God for the better part of six centuries now.

Our dogma may read differently than yours, but that's because you bastards have been MIA during some of the most important battles in the history of Christendom. Where the fuck have you been? We've been waging war for the very existence of the Church, and where the fuck have you been? You've been fucking off in Russia and Greece, protected by the Emperor, then the Tsar, and then Putin. Sure, you had a rough go of it during the Soviet Union, but even then you weren't challenged the way the Church of Rome has been.

We've done all the heavy lifting fighting for the reality of God and of Christ and of the Church, and you fuckers have the gall to criticize our efforts. Meanwhile, even while fighting for our spiritual and metaphysical lives, we've still managed to send missionaries to every corner of the globe, and have baptized billions, bringing them into the Church Militant and the Church Penitant and the Church Triumphant.

Sure, we haven't always gotten it right, and we've made errors, but we've been fighting the good fight all this time with no help from you. Again: where have you been? We could have used your help.

>>1301951
What sort of reasons would satisfy you?

>>1300162
>I'm in shock as to how hidden away and taboo Christianity is in the US
People like you make me miss the SSSR.

File: er.gif (417KB, 245x157px) Image search: [Google]

417KB, 245x157px

>>1301955
>Sure, you had a rough go of it during the Soviet Union, but even then you weren't challenged the way the Church of Rome has been.

Not to mention being oppressed by Muslims (to this day).

>>1301949
>No, they administrate
Isnt that the role of the Secretary and other officers?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masonic_lodge_officers#Offices_generally_found_only_at_Grand_Lodge_level

Looking at this it seems like they split up administration and this form of organizing isnt even uniform across all rites.

>Anticlericism is not the issue, especially if clerics are Masons. The issue is importing the ideology that all religions describe the same truth.

It is the issue because thats the question I asked in the thread. Why would you respond to a question on anti clericalism and freemasonry if all you want to do is talk about perennial philosophy?

>>1301971
>Isnt that the role of the Secretary and other officers?
They're assistants. The Grand Master is the highest authority.

>It is the issue because thats the question I asked in the thread.
No one is paranoid about Masons for criticizing the clergy, if they'd just do that then they would be one of countless other secular groups who have been doing it for hundreds of years. The paranoia is about them *becoming* clerics.

>>1301956
Not that anon but demonstrating that the other views held contradictions and that their religion did not, without relying on revealed axioms.

>>1301991
There are too many other views to list let alone critique thoroughly, that's a criterion not applied even to scientific theories.

>>1301961
Muslims are better foes than atheists. At least Muslims believe in A god.

>>1301978
>They're assistants. The Grand Master is the highest authority.

Yeah but not in a way that seems analogous to bishops in the EOC or the RCC which are far more uniform and clear cut.

>No one is paranoid about Masons for criticizing the clergy, if they'd just do that then they would be one of countless other secular groups who have been doing it for hundreds of years. The paranoia is about them *becoming* clerics.

This has nothing to do with my question, the Masonic groups I mentioned in it didnt just criticized the church the violently opposed it. If you dont want to discuss the relationship between freemasonry and anticerlicalism then fine but dont go an waffle on tangents and act as if that was somehow answering it.

>>1301995
>There are too many other views to list let alone critique thoroughly

Probably why then there are so many agnostics and cultural theists. Its no surprise these days that most people who find faith find it in their cultural faith or something related to it.

>that's a criterion not applied even to scientific theories.

Of course, science isnt some miracle idea that hold all answers.

What would count as the gates of hell prevailing against? How do you know when this is met?

>>1302009
Yes they are better, however at the time they were also far more dangerous. The Muslims had huge empires that were slamming into the kingdoms of eastern europe. While atheists could have been removed easier if your people were more brutal. Think about it, if Locke, Hobbes, and Rousseau were killed because they were publishing their ideas, that would have postponed the French and American revolutions and things like secularism would not have developed.

>>1302045
>things like secularism would not have developed.

Christianity literally invented secularism and the church state divide

You know if you actually do ANY research at all into Vatican II, it's not as bad as people make it out to be. It's just a fucking bogeyman by idiots who lack sufficient faith in the Church.

File: 1463846800477.jpg (13KB, 147x147px) Image search: [Google]

13KB, 147x147px

>>1298512

>>1301995
Constantine what co you think about Old Calenderism? They seem pretty clued up about these freemasonry stuff

>>1298307
>vatican and bycantinean emperor plan to unify the church because of the muslim danger

>mfw plan not succeeded because orthodox want rather to be butt fucked and destroyed by muslims than unify the church

File: Aios_Georgios_icon.jpg (2MB, 1000x1498px) Image search: [Google]

2MB, 1000x1498px

>>1298307
Good. This is why we're ORTHODOX, we don't fly wherever the wind blows, we stand firmly, we are rooted deep in history.

>>1302571
Unify with an atheist commuist pope that kisses the feet of mudslimes and prays in mosques and synagogues? No thanks.

>>1301118
Why should we be ruled by some serb in Belgrade? What is St. Sava to us?

>>1302551
Schismatics.

I sympathize with them, but breaking communion is only justified on grounds of dogma.

>>1302056
Christianity never invented the idea that the state shouldn't foster religion.

>>1302709
Your own bishop is your highest authority, not your patriarch (unless they happen to be the same).

>>1301955
As if the Orthodox Church hasn't had to struggle.

>ottomans do all kinds of shit to your faith and transform your churches into mosques or just destroy them out of spite
>forced to pay a special tax
>in soviet times your religion is banned and has to be done covertly
>many of your members are kidnapped and tortured simply for keeping to your faith
>meanwhile rich pedophilic Vatican fat-cats have to reply to some autist's shitposts

>>1301118
If you are against a macedonian church than you should be against a serbian church.

The truth is, the secular politics of the church are crap, but the important thing is all teach the same teachings and perform the same rituals.

>>1298307
I'm a protestant, and I'm still happy for them.

Don't let the secular left try and tell a church what to do. Good on y'all.

>>1299227
racism wasn't invented by communists

File: rrr.jpg (16KB, 250x262px) Image search: [Google]

16KB, 250x262px

>balkans
>somebody rings the bell
>grandma opens the door
>some jehovah's witnesses (she does not know anything about them) ask her about faith and religion
>she told me said to them there was no point, and that she couldn't believe, even though she wants to, because of the communists

pretty sad actually

>>1302706
the unification i'm talking about is the which was planned some years before the fall of constantinople? bout 600years ago

i'm not talking about the modern era, i'm sorry if you got it wrong because of the lack of information in my comment

((((Bershidisky))))

>>1300739
Enjoy the pit of hell.

>>1299771
did you dip your dick in water or actually go to hell?

>>1301955
>most brilliant minds in history
>Calvin
>Nietzsche

>>1299966
>Orthodox Christianity is the less innovative form of Christianity
>form of Christianity

here's where you're making a mistake. orthodox christianity exists for ethnonational reasons, not for theological reasons. slavs aren't unaware that god doesn't exist.

>>1304234

I know you probably say that as if it were a negative thing, but it's the exact opposite. Without the white race there's not Christian civilization. So obviously ethnicity > theology.

>>1302931
Don't bother, I think he's lost.

>>1302745
But the orthodox church had autonomy in ottoman times.

>>1299227
Christianity is a universalist religion.

It is 'the Bolshevism of the ancient world'.

So ...

Why are people calling the pope a heretic? I tried watching a video about it but it got boring.

Is it because he isn't mean enough?

>>1299273
Prevailing in a meanibgful way means to be sucessful.
Not blobbing out across the globe as fast as possible and then getting corrupted.
The orthos gonna be still around in a long time, even some little shamanist ethno-religions manage to hold out after all.

>>1304670
Yeah, sure, but Patriarchs were often put to death, one for converting a Muslim

>>1303942
>>1304234
>>1304649
>>1304723
Embrace hell, and all its torments, for behold, you're going thither, even to discuss phenomenology and gender studies with your gay friends, while being anally penetrated with pitchforks by demons.

>>1304692
Preach.

>>1300162
Apparently not educated enough to understand that they need to get the fuck out of the eurozone.

>>1304891
Implying they can't.

>>1302714
>Christianity never invented the idea that the state shouldn't foster religion.

The very idea of there being any divide between Church and State is secular, the fact that you divide worldly authorities and religious authorities is secular.

Its also how the Church keeps its hands clean whilst civil authorities do terrible and sinful things even when they do it in the name of faith.

>>1305031
>secularism means anything other than theocracy
Nah, dude. Yes, Christianity pushed the idea that the rulers and priests should be distinct instead of the same class. Christianity, however, did not say there shouldn't be a state religion, that states shouldn't fund or endorse the Church or teach it in schools.

If you define secularism as "priests and political rulers being distinct", then Israel under David was secular.

>>1305123
Nah, dude. Yes, Christianity pushed the idea that the rulers and priests should be distinct instead of the same class. Christianity, however, did not say there shouldn't be a state religion, that states shouldn't fund or endorse the Church or teach it in schools.

That distinction was incredibly important and helped overcome the key contradiction of when it comes to Christs teachings and life and the behaviour of civil authorities.

>If you define secularism as "priests and political rulers being distinct", then Israel under David was secular.

Thats because the old testament faithful were Christians unlike the rabbinical jews which people inccorectly associate with them.

File: 1437845070642.jpg (2MB, 3485x2333px) Image search: [Google]

2MB, 3485x2333px

>>1299273

Agree. It's the main reason I choose (Traditional) Catholicism over Orthodoxy. Coming from a South Indian background I considered joining Malabari or Malankara Orthodox churches. But they were so communal and ethnic.

>>1304764

They've had thousands of years and yet they still don't make efforts to spread. How much more time do they need?

The fundamental duty of Christians is to spread the gospel. If this Orthodox mentality existed among the early Christians, then the religion would never make it out of Judea.

>>1305141
Secularism, today, means the state does not endorse or support any particular religion, does not require religious oaths, does not teach a faith in school, does not anoint their leader into office, and so on. It means the state is impartial in regard to religion.

>>1305165
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/04/15/greek-orthodox-church-latin-america_n_7065630.html

>Thousands of Orthodox Christians attended Holy Week services in Greek Orthodox churches in Central and South America this year — but most were not of Greek descent.

>Of its 550,000 members, only 5,000 are Greek, according to Maxwell Dotson, executive director of One World One Community, a non-profit co-founded by Metropolitan Athenagoras. The vast majority are natives of that region who are seeking a spiritual identity within the transplanted Greek church.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antiochian_Orthodox_Christian_Archdiocese_of_North_America

>Many conservative former Anglicans have turned to the archdiocese as a jurisdiction, some joining and leading Western Rite parishes with liturgy more familiar to Western Christians. The current mission of the Antiochian Orthodox Christian Archdiocese of North America is to "bring Orthodoxy to America" and has a very active Department on Mission and Evangelism which was chaired by Fr. Peter Gillquist who led the mass conversion of the Evangelical Orthodox Church to Eastern Orthodoxy. Gullquist retired in December 2011 and died in July 2012. Fr. Michael Keiser was named as his successor as head of the department.[4] The archdiocese broadcasts Ancient Faith Radio, an Internet-based radio station with content themed around Orthodox Christianity.

>As a result of its evangelism and missionary work, the Antiochian Archdiocese saw significant growth between the mid-1960s and 2012. The archdiocese had only 65 parishes across the United States in the mid-1960s and by 2011 this number had increased to 249 parishes.[5]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yeRXbLAIPcU

>>1305183
Then how would you describe the cleaving of spiritual and worldly authorities?

>>1305202
Like the cleaving between the person who bakes the bricks and the person who lays them. Distinct jobs that shouldn't be conflated, yet are properly complimentary.

>>1305165
>South Indian
Dude do you have a link to an English translation of this?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kristubhagavatam

On the topic, I'm Brazilian and I'd very much like to convert to Greek or Syriac Orthodoxy (the two options available near where I live) because of Pope Francis, etc., but I don't because I'm not an ethnic. It's not that they wouldn't welcome me, I know they would, it's just that I imagine I'd be like "dude WTF are you doing here?". I think it's cool that they have an ethnic church though.

>>1305204
I meant with a word, because this distinction is technically and traditionally been labeled under secular.

>>1305213
Secular generally means not religious. If the government has a religion that factors into policy, it's not secular anymore than a business that overtly holds a religion that factors largely into its policy.

The word that describes it is any system other than a theocracy, be it a monarchy or a democracy or a anything else. A theocracy is political rule by priests. There is no general word for non-theocracy anymore than there is a word that describes all systems other than monarchy.

>>1298425
We do criticize them, I swear go- I mean my friend.
Trust me :) :) I am a trustworthy merchant :) :)

>>1305229
So what would the old pagan society where the Emperor or Pharoah was seen as a God or chief representative be?

>>1305243
Theocracy

>>1305230
I would never doubt you merchant, after all you went through that horrible holocaust where 11 hundred million were killed, and yet you survived twice and even your children and grandchildren survived so they get reparations to this day. Definitely doubting you would amount to anti-semitism and I don't want to be called nazi and lose my job. Cheers!

>>1302027
bump for an answer on this

>>1305321
Heresy being made dogma.

>>1305338
Is there a source to this?

>>1304873
>implying Greece has a choice
Greeks voted "No" in the referendum, they made it clear they wanted to leave.

>Holy and Great Council
>Churches already pulled out
why cant they get together?

>>1298471
>Only lukewarm, crypto atheists and liberals approve of Varitan II.
I agree, it is painfully obvious that this is true. Vatican and with it Catholicism was hijacked and subverted by (((leftists))) decades ago.
A respectable person can not look up at an institution that's only remaining tenets are
>serve others
>even if this means the death of yourself and your group
>dude pathological altruism lmao
>don't defend yourself, you are bad! Bad! Don't you know Christian white males enslaved the whole world?! Now we gotta pay the toll.

Evola has predicted by the middle of the last century already that the Church will shift leftwards to accomodate to the new paradigms.
It rather gave up its core just to have more influence (and not strenght, as strenght would lie in the real followers, not the pseudo Christians of the modernity that V2 panders to) than to stay true to itself and either keep on fighting or die with dignity.

>>1301995

Do you have any compilation of the best arguments for God?

I unironically want to believe, but I can't agree with any of the ones i've seen.

File: aqinas.jpg (2MB, 2700x6826px) Image search: [Google]

2MB, 2700x6826px

>>1305477
Look up Edward feser his blog and his book the last superstition.

Aquinas and Aristotle demonstrated conclusively the logical necessity of God. Its literally irrational not to believe in the existence of God.

>>1305268
Yes, yes, what a heartfelt letter, my ally!
Almost as heartfelt as the letters I wrote to my babushka out in Dachau while I was awaiting inbetween gassing attempts by nazis. Sadly, my last letter was not delivered to her, as a bear and an eagle simoultaniously attacked me in my cage, while a 24 cm long baton was up my ass.
By the way I met little Anne Frank there. I was forced to pick her up and push her into the gas chamber. I was forced to drag her corpse out and throw it into a mass grave just to be dug up again months later so we could cremate her in one of our 54 ovens under 2 minutes. The Allies came just in time to save us before the nazis put the new Masturbator 3000 on me.
Really makes you think, huh?

>>1305484
>Aristotle and Aquinas
Hilarious word games are not proof.

>>1305477
There's an atheist FAQ here you might find helpful
http://pastebin.com/bN1ujq2x

Also, consider this: the universe didn't forever (or else we'd be in heat death), but yet begin to exist at a specific point in time. If the condition that made the universe exist is timeless, then the universe itself would have to be, because the universe could not only go backward finitely if its predicate is eternal. Unless the condition for the universe's existence had agency.

>>1305506
I cant link it it but google "so you think you understand the cosmological argument" and click on the first hit.

Its simply logic not word games. You actually have to start getting into word games and the like to avoid its conclusions. Really athiests cant really refute the points so they either strawman as dawkins did or simply ignore or handwave it.

>>1305484

Thanks -

few additional questions:

I realise this is an ad hom, but Feser seems really like quite a minor philosophy, teaching at a community colllege. This isn't meant as an attack, and i'm more than willing to admit a general academic bias against non-liberal ideas, but his standing seems like a strong reason not to invest too much time in reading him.

Secondly, can you provide a reason for why philosophy has largely moved on from theistic arguments? Again this is an ad - hom, but it seems reasonable as an outside view, that we would expect philosophical knowledge to largely improve with time (and did it not for large portions of time in your own view, e.g. from Aristotle to Aquinas?)

>>1305517

Could it not just be a timeless other 'thing' - but a non-spiritual thing? or perhaps no thing at all, for how can you make any claim about the nature of something external to the 'world' in which our human reasoning seems to fit?

>>1305541
And if it's the article I'm thinking of, it's objection is "you didn't accept them arbitrarily crea ting categories to justify their circular reasoning." Or word games.>>1305541

>>1305553
If it didn't have agency, the universe would have always existed, because there is no point the condition did not exist.

>>1305543
>I realise this is an ad hom, but Feser seems really like quite a minor philosophy, teaching at a community colllege. This isn't meant as an attack, and i'm more than willing to admit a general academic bias against non-liberal ideas, but his standing seems like a strong reason not to invest too much time in reading him.

There are much more prestigious modern thinkers who follow this line of thinking however they write at a far more specialized and academic level. Feser actually works from the ground up and presents these ideas in an accessible and lucid fashion.

Aristotles thought is famously hard to get into given the broken nature of his source materials, all the more so when the current mindset is so foreign to it. Authors like Feser are fantastic starting points.

>Secondly, can you provide a reason for why philosophy has largely moved on from theistic arguments?

He goes into a lot of detail on this point in his book its a combination of political issues - anti catholic sentiment as well as the fact that people were able to draw some really interesting (as well as personally desriable and complex views from rejecting it)

>Again this is an ad - hom, but it seems reasonable as an outside view, that we would expect philosophical knowledge to largely improve with time (and did it not for large portions of time in your own view, e.g. from Aristotle to Aquinas?)

Philosophy doesnt have a fixed trend of progression. What you tend to find is that certain schools of thought pop up and develop in their own confines (hence why you wont see groundbreaking inventions or leaps like you do in scientific practice).

The break from Aristotle wasnt really about people proving him wrong but from deciding to ignore him and create new ideas. Hence why criticism of him despite his influence is so scant.

>>1305562
>And if it's the article I'm thinking of, it's objection is "you didn't accept them arbitrarily crea ting categories to justify their circular reasoning." Or word games

The thing is the categories arent arbitrarily created. For instance the whole actuality and potentiality split was a product came as a result of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Problem_of_universals and how thinkers tried to reconcile the issue of change and being.

Hence they are the opposite of arbitrary and instead founded upon observation and reason. Indeed that problem tends to be the case with athiests, who reject Aristotle off hand because they dont like his conclusions.

Unless you start going into pure solipsism and "u cant no nuffin" you cant rationally deny the existence of God.

>>1305606
>how thinkers tried to reconcile the issue of change and being.
Yes, people got very caught up in what words "really" mean instead of using them as the tools they are. I'm aware of this. Inventing things because they solve tricky word problems isn't legal in Scrabble, why on earth do people believe they can do it to define the nature of reality?

>>1305566
There are scientist, perhaps most who argue that the universe always existed, just not in its current form.


>>1305541
Its not hand waving to point out the Aristotelian assumptions made by Aquinas are in serious contention.

Aristotle was an empiricist, in that he believed knowledge came from the senses. His metaphysics corresponded with his physics, but that is no longer the case. His metaphysics need to be rebuilt from the ground up.

>>1305517
How nice of you to keep a list of your disputed arguments and academically irrelevant theories that you still cling to out o faith

>>1305767
>His metaphysics need to be rebuilt from the ground up.
I dont see why, Metaphysics is the First Philosophy, and his brand of empiricism presupposes his metaphysical assumptions.

>>1305677
>Yes, people got very caught up in what words "really" mean instead of using them as the tools they are. I'm aware of this. Inventing things because they solve tricky word problems isn't legal in Scrabble, why on earth do people believe they can do it to define the nature of reality?

The meaning of the words wasnt the issue, you can call the moon a teacup and it wont change a thing. They were dealing with the concepts.

>Its not hand waving to point out the Aristotelian assumptions made by Aquinas are in serious contention.

Thats the thing you actually arent. You are not pointing to any specific areas of his ideas or arguments raised against them all you are doing is asserting they are contentious.

>Aristotle was an empiricist, in that he believed knowledge came from the senses.

But importantly not a materialist either.

>His metaphysics corresponded with his physics, but that is no longer the case. His metaphysics need to be rebuilt from the ground up.

Its closer to being the other way around in that our knowledge of physics is based on our metaphysical understandings.

Do you actually have any arguments of substance against aristotle or are you going to continue these vauge claims?

If you are looking for a start there is a nice discussion in >>1305484 pic

>>1305796
metaphysics whose laws no longer conform to the world are no better than a fantasy.

he can only presuppose his metaphysical assumptions because they already applied to the world as he could see it, They did not spring fourth from his mind with no external input

>>1305806
I dont see that as a nice discussion, I see one guy explaining why Aristotle metaphysics are no longer relevant, and another guy saying that doesnt prove them wrong.

While there certainly not self evident so until you demonstrate your Aristotelian framework to everyone satisfaction there is no reason to take this as a proof of God

>>1305808

>I dont see that as a nice discussion, I see one guy explaining why Aristotle metaphysics are no longer relevant, and another guy saying that doesnt prove them wrong.

Its nice as it helps cut through the idea that Aristotle's ideas were just word games and nonsense which are in contradiction,

>While there certainly not self evident so until you demonstrate your Aristotelian framework to everyone satisfaction there is no reason to take this as a proof of God

Which is what Feser does in that short book of his and why I suggested it. Likewise do you apply this standard to other areas of life?


I am curious though what is your standard of satisfaction?

>>1305806
>They were dealing with the concepts.
Yes, as though the meanings of concepts were important and not just tools. It's the ancient equivalent of arguing whether or not Pluto is a planet because people have an emotional attachment to both, when in reality the concept of "planet" is just a tool humans use to organize thought. The concepts have no impact on fundamental reality, aside from behaviour humans engage in based on them.

File: 1419205913782.png (6KB, 344x357px) Image search: [Google]

6KB, 344x357px

>>1298307
>more of the same old primacy propaganda between Moscow and Constantinople
>Russiaboos eat it right the fuck up
>Church of Antioch was the real linchpin to this failing
>They're mad about shit that has nothing to do with this council
>muh Catholics, Masons, Liberals and Jews
Satan wins again.

>>1305840
Personally I am pretty convinced of the soundness of my argument already, I am certainly open if someone wants to lay the winning case right in front of me, but there is very little I agree with Aristotle on.

Aristotle did the best he could given the knowledge available at the time and his own formidable intellect. I seriously believe if he had access to today science and philosophy he would rework his metaphysics, Because unlike the assertion that metaphysics comes before physics, no one has ever come up with a metaphysical scheme without looking at physics and trying to fill in the holes with logic

>>1305808
>metaphysics whose laws no longer conform to the world are no better than a fantasy.
Aristotelians would argue otherwise though.

>>1305808
>he can only presuppose his metaphysical assumptions because they already applied to the world as he could see it
Not really, he could (and did) make a metaphysical framework and then interpret the relevant facts through his framework, which is what every metaphysics do. If youre implying his science is essential to his metaphysics then you dont really know what metaphysics is or how it is developed

>>1305845
>The concepts have no impact on fundamental reality, aside from behaviour humans engage in based on them.

Yes and given their significance there is great value in understanding them. All the subjectivism in the West can be directly traced back to the rejection of Aristotle.

When you understand come concepts it allows you to deduce and understand others/

>>1305859
>Because unlike the assertion that metaphysics comes before physics, no one has ever come up with a metaphysical scheme without looking at physics and trying to fill in the holes with logic
This is pretty much false, you dont need to look at the facts of physics to give a solution to the Problem of Universals, or to discuss the Principle of Sufficient Reason, etc. In fact, physics must presuppose some solution to these metaphysical questions to get its job done.

>>1305867
>Yes and given their significance there is great value in understanding them.
Yes, because they are useful. That's the point of having them in the first place. However, you shouldn't confuse the concept as humans understand and define it with whatever actually exists. They may line up often and have many correspondences but they are not identical, and to think that our concepts outrank reality is the height of hubris.

>>1305859
>Personally I am pretty convinced of the soundness of my argument already, I am certainly open if someone wants to lay the winning case right in front of me, but there is very little I agree with Aristotle on.

You havent told me what your standard of satisfaction is and I have given you a book that might put a "winning case" before you.

>Aristotle did the best he could given the knowledge available at the time and his own formidable intellect. I seriously believe if he had access to today science and philosophy he would rework his metaphysics

In what way? you keep on making vauge statements about Aristotles metaphysics without actually mentioning or addressing them specifically.

>Because unlike the assertion that metaphysics comes before physics, no one has ever come up with a metaphysical scheme without looking at physics and trying to fill in the holes with logic

None can come up with any knowledge of physics without making metaphysical assumptions. By inquiry with reason and empiricism we can better round this knowledge

>>1305878
What works on Aristotle or by him have you actually read? because reification isnt the issue here.

>>1305877
AT least in Aristotlie's own scheme, knowledge is derived from he senses. It is impossible to form a system of principles as complicated as his metaphysics without sensory input. Now I realized that stretches the word "physics"

But more importantly this framework of empiricism is what defeats his metaphysics, as modern testing raises several troubling points about things like causality which are fatal to an Aristotelian framework.

>>1305845
>The concepts have no impact on fundamental reality, aside from behaviour humans engage in based on them.
This is proof of what I said here >>1305877
You already presuppose a certain metaphysical framework without looking at physics (a brand of Nominalism). How can you still be unaware of it?

>>1305889
You realize there are two of us, right?

>>1305888
>AT least in Aristotlie's own scheme, knowledge is derived from he senses
And in order to establish his epistemiology, he MUST establish some metaphysics first.
>as modern testing raises several troubling points about things like causality
that is pretty controversial, since there are several interpretations of modern physics that are in line with Aristotelian metaphysics. And most that arent in line with it presuppose a certain metaphysic

>>1305887
>because reification isnt the issue here.
I never said it was. I said that confusing your concepts with reality is a mistake, because the definitions of concepts are incredibly flexible while reality is not, and if you start playing silly games with the definitions you come to really dumb conclusions about reality.

>>1305905
> because the definitions of concepts are incredibly flexible while reality is not,

Which is the issue that Aristotle solved with his hylomorphism

>>1305898
And personally I do not think his metphysics mesh with well with modern physics.

yes he has established his metaphyics, in this case as an axiom, though many of his axioms can be attacked as well but that isn't my point here.

and while metaphysics are established first at least in a chain of formal logic, that is not how such chains actually come about. information is always reevaluated in the creation of any such framework, before experiences can be reinterpreted according to the framework.

The framework then, makes no sense without experience. Even if it were a true framework, it would be an unknowable one.

>>1305907
Apparently not, because for whatever reason we're still having arguments about reality based on elaborately rengineered concepts instead of just looking at reality. Again, the artificial distinction created to enable the justification of the cosmological argument.

>>1305916
>Apparently not, because for whatever reason we're still having arguments about reality based on elaborately rengineered concepts instead of just looking at reality

Firstly just looking at reality is a metaphysical viewpoint secondly just because there are dissenting viewpoints doesn't suddenly mean that Aristotle was incorrect.

> Again, the artificial distinction created to enable the justification of the cosmological argument.

Actually you are creating the distinction to rejected the cosmological argument.

"Reason and emperical observation are the basis of knowledge except if God is an answer"

Also are you going to answer >>1305882?

>>1305928
first your talking to two people, that was not me.

second, sense we are not delving into the material its hard to say what would satisfy since I am a materialist, but I suppose for the sake of this argument that if you could show that Aristotelian metaphysics, to the exclusion of any other present system can satisfy the first principles needed to make sense of the world I would accept that

>>1305936
to clairify
these >>1305916
>>1305905
>>1305878


and those like them are not me

>>1305910
>And personally I do not think his metphysics mesh with well with modern physics.
Ok, but that is pretty much a blunt assertion, along with everything you have said up to this point

>>1305942
Its blunt, but I think the majority of physicists would agree so I do not think I am coming out of left field.

its a difficult topic in itself because you would have to know physics and metaphysics really really well to have a truly informed opinion

>>1305928
>Actually you are creating the distinction to rejected the cosmological argument.
The distinction is between "everything has a cause" and "everything that comes into existence has a cause", which is explicitly designed to be able to create a category of "things that do not come into existence" so that the desired conclusion can be reached. And even in that case, it's incorrect, because daughter species of radioactive parent species "come into existence" without a cause. Of course, at this point you redefine what a "cause" is, or perhaps what "come into existence" means, because those are all malleable concepts, but doing so already shows why it's a bad idea to make sweeping statements about the fundamental nature of reality based on them.

>Also are you going to answer
My answer to that is >>1305896, with te addition that I don't know if it's actually just two.

>>1305949
>but I think the majority of physicists would agree so I do not think I am coming out of left field.
the majority of physicists arent even familiar with the field of philosophy

>>1298307
Can an Orthodox person give their view on http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-36569416 ?

Is this significant? What are its causes and implications?

>>1305952
>The distinction is between "everything has a cause" and "everything that comes into existence has a cause", which is explicitly designed to be able to create a category of "things that do not come into existence" so that the desired conclusion can be reached

I think you are being obtuse here and imputing dishonesty onto Aristotle. The idea that things which come into existence have a cause is perfectly grounded in observation and reason. Try making sense of reality with a different metaphysical basis. Indeed saying otherwise requires a greater leap of faith if not an atheist motive.

>Of course, at this point you redefine what a "cause" is, or perhaps what "come into existence" means, because those are all malleable concepts, but doing so already shows why it's a bad idea to make sweeping statements about the fundamental nature of reality based on them.

Mate they literally came up with the terms thousands of years ago. Its you who are redefining terms.

>>1305949
>Its blunt, but I think the majority of physicists would agree

Based on what?

>>1306763
Nothing.

Based Russkies saved us from Vatican III: Revenge of the Jew

>>1306794
Can you expand on this? It says they were planning this meeting for half a century. Are the non Russians modernists?

>>1306803
Most orthodox churches are pretty traditional and conservative, however the Patriarch of Constantinople is a modernist reformer who is good friends with Francis. He wanted to modernize the Orthodox community the same way Vatican II did with the Catholics since he is nominally the head of the orthodox church..

But the Russians didn't think it fair that a guy who's church has only a few thousand believers (not a lot of Christians in Istanbul) be the one calling the shots, so they pulled out alongside several others.

So it's more of a clash of politics than of beliefs

>>1306812
So does this effectively mean that council is pointless?

What were they planning on doing at his historic event and why does Russia have to boycott it rather than just go and contribute in thier interest?

>>1306826
Yeah.

They were most likely planning to begin talks on a Orthodox Vatican II i.e. modernizing and revolutionizing the Orthodox Church.

The Russians pulled out because they believe that they should be in charge (since they have the largest membership of all the Orthodox churches) instead of Bartholomew. Not to mention that with Russia getting more and more conservative it is in their interest to keep the church the way it is

>>1306836
Why does it matter if they are all equals?
Why would they not simply just go there agree to the non vatican II shit so that something can be done about the big issues in the other jurisdictions?

> Not to mention that with Russia getting more and more conservative it is in their interest to keep the church the way it is

Are they starting to act like Rome?

>>1306852
Nominally, they are equal, but in truth, the bulgarians, the Belorussians, the serbs, and formerly the Ukrainians all blow as Russia blows, and the greeks follow constantinople.

>Why would they not simply just go there agree to the non vatican II shit so that something can be done about the big issues in the other jurisdictions?

Because if they go there and disagree would be the same as not going there at all, so they're just saving time and resources.

>Are they starting to act like Rome?

I guess

>>1306858
>Nominally, they are equal, but in truth, the bulgarians, the Belorussians, the serbs, and formerly the Ukrainians all blow as Russia blows, and the greeks follow constantinople.

Does this risk a schism?

>Because if they go there and disagree would be the same as not going there at all, so they're just saving time and resources.

Not true if they go there they could still allow some developements when it comes to administrative matters and hence help out the growing diaspora as well as sort out missionary issues. All whilst preserving dogma.

>>1306872
Nah, it's just sort of cold war, but the orthodox know all too well what they risk with a schism.

>Not true if they go there they could still allow some developements when it comes to administrative matters and hence help out the growing diaspora as well as sort out missionary issues. All whilst preserving dogma

Administrative matters and growing diaspora are all local manners and each church deals with their own.

What's confusing you here is that you think that the Orthodox are united like the catholics, but actually each church does what it wants

>>1306880
>Nah, it's just sort of cold war,

What will resolve it?

>Administrative matters and growing diaspora are all local manners and each church deals with their own.

But many of them have ties with countries like Russia and the countries which follow it which makes their participation necessary to sort out.

>What's confusing you here is that you think that the Orthodox are united like the catholics, but actually each church does what it wants

Not at all, its because they are so decentralized they have this kind of problems.

>>1306906
>What will resolve it?

Bartholomew either de jure or de facto giving control to the Russian Orthodox Church, or the Russians giving up their struggle for control

>But many of them have ties with countries like Russia and the countries which follow it which makes their participation necessary to sort out.

Which they will do by hosting a conference of their own.

>>1298513
>are anathema
Ducks too. Ducks are anathema too.

>>1306916
>Which they will do by hosting a conference of their own.

Has this been anounced and would it be boycotted by the Greeks?

Have the Orthodox always been so divided?

>>1306945
Oh no, what I meant is that they host conferences all the time, it's just that it doesn't get hyped because they're local affairs

>>1306812
This is why it proved a fatal mistake by Catholics to allow one bishop (namely the bishop of Rome) to dictate dogma, church policy and everything else. What happens when said bishop is a radical reformer and closer Marxist? If the Catholic Church was decentralized, all other dioceses a the faithful could just solemnly ignore him and keep doing their thing. The enemies of the church noticed that all they had to do was infiltrate ONE agent and sponsor his way to pope hood, and then they would have the entire church all over the world at their feet in one coup. This would never happen in the Orthodox Church thanks to its decentralization. It would be useless to infiltrate/bribe one patriarch because everyone else and the orthodox people would just ignore, if not remove him. It proved a safety mechanism and a blessing in disguise. God bless the Orthodox Church!

>>1307044
You are only seeing it from one point of view the other is that by having such a decentralized body you effectively block any innovation or revision which means if there is a flaw or error in Orthodox teaching they are incapable of responding to it.

> would be useless to infiltrate/bribe one patriarch because everyone else and the orthodox people would just ignore, if not remove him. It proved a safety mechanism and a blessing in disguise. God bless the Orthodox Church!

This actually makes it easier to manipulate the clergy and isolate parishioners a church that is already divided can easily be conqured. Catholics can count on support of the wealth knowledge and power of the Universal Church and its adherents whilst Orthodox pretty much have noone put Russia.

>else. What happens when said bishop is a radical reformer and closer Marxist? If the Catholic Church was decentralized, all other dioceses a the faithful could just solemnly ignore him and keep doing their thing.

Notice how no Pope no matter how flawed has done something like that Ex Cathedra? If a Pope is heretical he is automatically excommunicated.

>>1307044
>not being able to get your shit together is somehow a good thing
1000 years and you still don't learn

>>1307117
If there is a flaw or error in Orthodox teaching then they handle it independently, and if a single church gives a particularly good solution then the rest copy it, and if it's a bad one then they ignore it
>>1307125
>being infiltrated by Masons and marxists is somehow a good thing

>>1307117
>the Pope will be excommunicated
By whom? The SSPX? Face it. They have turned the table on the Catholic Church. It is the SSPX as Bishop Williamson that are in danger of being excommunicated and Pope Francis roams free spouting heresy. You can imagine all different kinds of scenarios where things play out otherwise, to the advantage of the more centralized institution, but the fact remains that the decentralized Orthodox Church remains faithful and the Catholic Church has been taken with one coup. Reality beats conjecture.

>>1307125
See above.

>>1307154
>remains faithful
>allows divorce and contraception , even though all Orthodox saints post schism uphold traditional sexual morality
Ok

>>1306787
>I think you are being obtuse here and imputing dishonesty onto Aristotle. The idea that things which come into existence have a cause is perfectly grounded in observation and reason.
Perhaps, but whether Aristotle and Aquinas were dishonest or just inadvertently circular doesn't change the objection. It's essentially saying "All things except God have a cause... therefore the cause of all things is God" because of the definitions. By creating the two categories, and placing "everything" into one category and "God" exclusively in the other you avoid the clear and obvious problems with the "everything has a cause..." formation of the argument but also beg the question.

And it's wrong anyway, as observing radioactivity would tell you.

>>1307699
>It's essentially saying "All things except God have a cause... therefore the cause of all things is God" because of the definitions.
Where did he say it? I'm not aware of such thing

>>1306852
>Why would they not simply just go there agree to the non vatican II shit
Because all the rest is just feel-good fluff. Everyone already knew what was going on, others just aimed to water down the proposals until they became toothless; they watered them down significantly, but still many saw them as an attempt to modernize, and so they pulled out. Consequently, though they can "pass" any proposals they want now, these proposals will have zero binding power, because too many autocephalous churches vetoed.

Don't worry about a schism, there is no risk of that. We've had outright heretics as Ecumenical Patriarchs before (who were later anathematized) trying to push things and it didn't cause a schism. The problem right now is that the patriarchate has been controlled by American interests for several decades; eventually the patriarchate will become realigned, this is no big deal. If His All-Holiness tried to push a schism, the other patriarchs have the power to remove him, and they'd put someone very different in; this happened recently, the Patriarch of Jerusalem got rekt for selling Church property to Israel, by that I mean he was defrocked and replaced.

>>1305192
>550,000 members in Central and South America out of a population of 380 million

>Orthodoxy at 0.5% of US population

File: Vatican2.jpg (30KB, 350x263px) Image search: [Google]

30KB, 350x263px

>>1298307
Vatican 2? sounds like a transformers movie

>>1308614
Orthodox immigration to the U.S. is far, far, far lower than Catholic, and since our conversion process is about a year (a lot longer than Protestants), our foothold and convert growth is pretty respectable. We couldn't change those things without either a lot more immigrants, or watering down the conversion process.

>>1308348
Are there the multiple things that do not come into existence?

>>1308866
>answering with a question
Dont

>>1307139
>If there is a flaw or error in Orthodox teaching then they handle it independently, and if a single church gives a particularly good solution then the rest copy it, and if it's a bad one then they ignore it

Only in administrative matters. When it comes to the faith and dogma they literally cant do a thing. Which whilst having some upisdes has the downside of turning the church into a museum rather than a garden.

>By whom? The SSPX? Face it. They have turned the table on the Catholic Church. It is the SSPX as Bishop Williamson that are in danger of being excommunicated and Pope Francis roams free spouting heresy. You can imagine all different kinds of scenarios where things play out otherwise, to the advantage of the more centralized institution,

Typical ignorance of Catholic doctrine rearing its head once again. Its called Latae Sententiae and its automatic and invalidates a Pope and any false teaching that he puts into practice.

> but the fact remains that the decentralized Orthodox Church remains faithful and the Catholic Church has been taken with one coup. Reality beats conjecture.

Like a the living garden that the Church is, it too has its ups and downs however everytime the Church has been attacked or subverted in the past they managed to overcome it and they will overcome the current issues as well. Ignoring all of the Churches history is conjecture not reality.

>>1307699
>Perhaps, but whether Aristotle and Aquinas were dishonest or just inadvertently circular doesn't change the objection. It's essentially saying "All things except God have a cause... therefore the cause of all things is God" because of the definitions.

This is literally false. Find one quote were Aquinas says everything has a cause except God. He *never* stated this.

Go ahead https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quinque_viae#The_Five_Ways

>y creating the two categories, and placing "everything" into one category and "God" exclusively in the other you avoid the clear and obvious problems with the "everything has a cause..." formation of the argument but also beg the question.

You literally ignored the part on how this was reached as a way of reconciling permanence and change (ie the problem of universals) and how it developed rather than being worked backwards.

Aquinas and Aristoles arguments were that some things change and that some things are caused.

>And it's wrong anyway, as observing radioactivity would tell you.

Explain.
>>1308614
I think the bigger issue is that number like these ignores the rather low church attendance rates.

>>1309169
Idk about Church attendance. I've been attending mass pretty regularly this past year and a half but I'm not registered at any parishes. Would I count as a mass attender? Yes. But am I counted as one? I don't think so, I'm not registered at any parish.

>>1309299
I dont think you have to register. You just say you attend mass weekly if someone asks you.

>>1309131
Dude, you're extremely naive I you think that the Novus Ordo hierarchy cares about what's written in an old piece of paper. You think you're dealing with amateurs here? These people have dedicated their entire lives to the business of infiltrating and subverting the church. If anyone were to invoke this document and declare Pope Francis a heretic, he would e declared a sedevacantist and marginalized instantly. Even if pope Francis were to declare "I pronounce ex cathedra that there is no God and Karl Marx is the prophet of mankind", the next hour there would be an army of apologists downplaying his statement, saying that the media is distorting his words, that they can be interpreted in an "orthodox" light and all the same bs that they always spout. Hell, I see even catholic answers shills going full damage control. "You see, what he really meant was... And you're a heretic for not getting it". In the end it will be the same people as always that will call him a heretic and they will be ignored, just like they are now. Only a Pope can declare another Pope a heretic, and guess what, the corrupt cardinals get to chose the next Pope and the current Pope gets to chose the next cardinals, so it's a vicious cycle. That's the tragic downside of the faithful and the bishops having no autonomy whatsoever. I sincerely hope you're right and I'm wrong on this, but your wishful thinking and appeal to documents that no high-ranking church official in existence will enforce today is no convincing anyone.

>>1309383
Literally no basis in history. Its as if you think the Chuch hasnt had horrifically corrupted Popes in the past.

They may not remove him in his lifetime but that doesnt mean they wont ammed the problems after he has died as they have done in the past/

This is just Church Realpolitik and there's no rule if there is no will to enforce it. At the end of the day someone has to get in Bergoglio's face and tell him that he's no longer the Pope, and no one is going to do that, seeing that the entire church hierarchy is corrupt.

>church history
That's a fair point. But unless you're going for the very long game, like a thousand years from now the culture will change, and people will be Christians again and they will elect a virtuous Pope and he will declare Pope Francis a heretic, unless you're going for that, I don't see how things are going to change in the foreseeable future.

>>1309420
Where exactly has he tried to change church dogma, he's adopted language that appeals to liberals, but nowhere has he said anything that is outside of Catholicism

>>1309420
>That's a fair point. But unless you're going for the very long game, like a thousand years from now the culture will change, and people will be Christians again and they will elect a virtuous Pope and he will declare Pope Francis a heretic, unless you're going for that, I don't see how things are going to change in the foreseeable future.

Take a look a the Churches Popes in the early years of the Renaissance where they were dominated by a corrupt banking family they managed to fix this in decades rather than millennia.

What you are doing is akin to those who see a dip in the polls and automatically assume that the campaign is over.

>>1309437
Again, I hope you're right and I'm wrong, but it seems that the only people not on board the Francis train are a couple old bishops and a few thousand laymen very far between. I don't see this church that is going to fix things up as soon as Pope Francis passes away.

>>1309480
Notice how I said decades not month or days?
If you want to feel better actually look into church history rather than repeating memes

>>1309430
He's very subtle about it, but he is changing the Church

This guy for instance, is basically his right-hand man
>>1309263
>>1309309

>>1309169
It's very simple. We can divide "everything" into "that which comes into existence" and "that which does not come into existence." >>1309075 dodged the question, but unless otherwise stated, the only member of "that which does not come into existence" is God. Thus, "everything except God" is an equivalent way of saying "that which comes into existence". So if we have a premise all "that which comes into existence" has a cause, we can phrase that as "everything except God" has a cause to reveal the circulatory of the argument. The obvious solution here is to expand "that which does not come into existence" to include other things, but if other things could be eternal like that it would defeat the whole purpose of the argument for God's existence.

>and how it developed rather than being worked backwards.
You can maybe make an argument for Aristotle here, but Aquinas was pretty clearly repurposing an older argument to prove something he wanted, not innocently stumbling onto some actual fundamental truth of the universe.

>Explain
Unstable isotopes decay completely randomly in a way that is not preceeded by anything. You can't tell when or why one particular nuclei in the sample will spontaneously decay while its otherwise identical neighbour will not. They are not causeed by anything external changing them, rather they change on their own. (And before you go linking articles about the sun being responsible, those results were likely caused by seasonal variations in the testing environment, and when you use less error-prone methods the supposed "result" vanishes. )

>>1299227
>not a true conservative
definition of no true scotsman fallacy

>>1309559
>>>1309075 dodged the question
youre the one who dodged the question though. Show where Aristotle or Aquinas or the rest of the Scholastic and Arabic tradition said that.

>>1309992
If God is not the only member of "that which does not come into existence" then other members could easily have caused the supposedly unbroken chain of causation and not resemble what is thought of as God in the slightest, thus it would not be proof for God. If there are no other members of that category, then the problem remains.

Either way, if they mentioned other members or not, the argument is flawed.

>>1310091
>If God is not the only member of "that which does not come into existence" then other members could easily have caused the supposedly unbroken chain of causation and not resemble what is thought of as God in the slightest, thus it would not be proof for God. If there are no other members of that category, then the problem remains.

Think about the attributes that an unmoved mover would require.

Think about how you would be able to deal with the issue of infinite regression without a prime mover or sustainer.


>Either way, if they mentioned other members or not, the argument is flawed.

Translation: I made up bad arguments and attributed them to Aquinas and Aristotle.

>>1310305
how is the sustainer more logical than an infinite regress?

Moreover, does our current understanding of the universe require either anymore? I believe some theorists are saying no now.

>>1310324
>how is the sustainer more logical than an infinite regress?

Because with an infinte regress you cant actually have a starting point for anything which is a pretty serious issue.

>Moreover, does our current understanding of the universe require either anymore? I believe some theorists are saying no now.

Why would it no longer require it? Which theorist and whats their argument?

>>1310305
>Think about how you would be able to deal with the issue of infinite regression without a prime mover or sustainer.
Quite simply, I don't have to. The infinite regression makes intuitive sense in the macroscopic, everyday world that Aristotle and Aquinas inhabited. But with observation of the quantum scale, which the universe would have existed in in its initial state, eliminates the problem. For example, the "umoved mover" wouldn't require agency as they imply, because although radioactive decay is random and spontaneous it does not happen all at once immediately. If the universe did indeed exist at a scale even smaller than this, the spontaneity combined with how screwed up time would be due to the compression handily solves the problem.

>Translation
That's a pretty liberal translation you have there, but okay. What bad argument is present in the first part of >>1309559? At which point did I mischaracterize the implications of the argument, rather than simply bring them to light? Be specific.

Why not just let people sin and be nude in heaven???

>>1310332
>Because with an infinte regress you cant actually have a starting point for anything which is a pretty serious issue

So is a perfect being existing outside and inside the system at the same time.

>I am sure others could cover it better but based on what I read, if you go back far enough, or on a small enough scale, traditional concepts of cause and effect break down and no longer apply so were dealing with the universe in a state where the normal rules do not apply and we have only a limited understanding of how things would or could interact with each other.

If that is indeed the origin of our present state, and still effecting us on some level, we could be dealing with a third option of some sort

>>1310091
youre still not answering the question though

>>1310354
Unless I've misunderstood, and please correct me with specific details if I have, the question is "where did they say thus? " I have shown how it is implicit in one of their famous arguments. Thus, I have pointed out where it has been said, assuming they actually intended their arguments to prove anything.

That's a potential flaw, I guess. If they did not intend to demonstrate anything with their arguments, they did not imply it. Is that what you are saying?

>>1310339
>So is a perfect being existing outside and inside the system at the same time.

Why is it problematic? With the infinte regress you get a contradiction that makes change impossible. No such issues with the unmoved mover.

>>1299273
Almost every orthodox person I have ever met has been black, as there are a lot of people from Ethiopia and Eritrea here.

>>1309395
You're not listening to what anon is saying. It's not just the Pope that's corrupt this time. It's the cardinals and bishops too. This practically ensures that the next one will be just as bad if not worse.

>>1299989
Yes.
Ephesians 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,

Romans 12:3 [ Serve God with Spiritual Gifts ] For I say, through the grace given to me, to everyone who is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think soberly, as God has dealt to each one a measure of faith.

>>1300162

Faith in the Orthodox Church.

Faith that results in salvation.

Choose one.

>>1310365
that might be true in a Newtonian universe, but how is determinism a problem? It actually seems pretty straight forward to me

Its problematic because in introduces something which obeys no physical laws, yet can interact with the physical, and cannot be modeled.

File: 1416089768007.jpg (42KB, 547x471px) Image search: [Google]

42KB, 547x471px

>mfw someone tells me I'm going to hell on a mongolian cavepainting board

>>1311505
>implying it isn't a Singaporean basketweaving board