/dpt/ - Daily Programming Thread

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Haskell is the strongest!

>>62426327
>Haskell shills can post all day long because they're unemployed

So, text editors in 2017

>Electron bloat
or
>80 for sublime
or
>acquire special form of autism called emacs

what do

For shell scripts, what's cleanest?
1:

[ <cond> ] && {
    dosomething
    dosomethingelse
}

2:

if [ <cond> ] ; then
    dosomething
    dosomethingelse
fi

>>62426394
Use vim or use one of the leaked cia sublime codes.

>>62426394
V I M
I
M

>>62426259
>Anime
Hi!
Go to hell.

>>62426327
thought you were DEAD until your name came up on my GitHub front page recently for some reason

>>62426406
Once upon a time I used vim with gdb, nevah again

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>>62426421
that's not my github

>>62426428
Maybe you should configure it in a way you like then?

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>>62426288
I'm a burger so I don't understand, anon.

>>62426451
Cheer up, me!

>>62426394
>emacs
Don't even fucking joke about that. You want to be crippled at age 40?

>>62426394
spacemacs

>>62426481
Expensive shipping.

>>62426561
why? emacs seems to be the only sane choice these days

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#include <cmath>
#include <iostream>
using namespace std;

class FixedPoint2 {
 private:
  const int m_abs_decimal_limit{32767 + 1};
  const int m_abs_fraction_limit{99 + 1};

  int m_decimal{0};
  int m_fraction{0};
  int m_sign{1};

 public:
  FixedPoint2() {}
  FixedPoint2(const int d, const int f = 0) {
    m_decimal = abs(d) % m_abs_decimal_limit;
    m_fraction = abs(f) % m_abs_fraction_limit;
    if (d < 0 or f < 0) {
      m_sign = -1;
    }  // else take the default value 1
  }

  friend ostream& operator<<(ostream& os, const FixedPoint2& f) {
    os << (f.m_sign == 1 ? "" : "-") << f.m_decimal << "."
       << ((f.m_fraction < 10) ? "0" : "") << f.m_fraction;
    return os;
  }

  operator double() {
    return m_sign *
           (float(m_decimal) + m_fraction / float(m_abs_fraction_limit));
  }
};

>>62426415
V
I
MIV
I
MIV
I
MIV
I
MIV
I
VIM
I
VIM
I
VIM
I
VIM

>>62426656
>// else take the default value 1

you could just write an actual else statement with less characters

>>62426613
no anon it's insane to trade physical health for a text editor.

>>62426561
lol just swap ctrl and caps

>>62426656
>Open solution
>Book solves it in a different way

>Go to the next question
>Book assumes I followed their method

>>62426873
>implying I press ctrl with my pinky

>>62426873
>>62426947
>don't use footpedals for control and alt

>>62426394
VS Code doesn't have the performance issues that Atom made people hate Electron for.

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>>62426394
>paying for sublime
>not using a hex editor to remove the annoying prompt

I thought /g/ was better than this

>>62426987
Jokes you you I still use atom. For C++ too.

>>62426996
I am trying to be a good christian

>>62427015
>2017
>People still fall for this meme

>>62427005
With Linter, C++ in atom is bearable

Why are there no good programmers on /g/? Why does this board attract so many sepples users and other nodev brainlets?

>>62427035
Don't forget clang-formatter. And you mean clang-lint, right?

>>62427046
C++ is trying to be bearable though. Muh modules and ranges. Hopefully UFCS too (not counting on it).

Don't want to stay behind, anon.

>>62426394
spacemacs is glorious, anon

>>62426561
spacemacs is ergonomic as fuck

>>62426893
>>62426947
>>62426968
You forgot. dvorak. colemak. Wrist support. Finger support. Lumbar support. Gel pads. Trackball mouse. Medication. Reiki. Feng Shui.
Must be a lot of fun to press key chords if you fags are willing to go through all of this for a fucking text editor.

>>62426611
Does Amazon lack infrastructure down there? I would think it would be cheaper since things are generally closer together compared to America.

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>>62427099

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>>62427072
D already has all of those.

>>62427072
I don't really underatand the need for UFCS in sepples. I prefer knowing when something is a free-standing function. Also, it feels like it would slow down IDE search.

>>62427046
>Why does this board attract so many sepples users
fyi, those are called "professional software engineers" irl, as in they get paid writing software using a real world language

>>62427140
GC. Why D didn't adopt C++'s smart pointers when it had the chance?

>>62427144
> I prefer knowing when something is a free-standing function
You don't document your member functions

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>his language doesn't have strtok

>>62427198
No one uses strtok, not even C fags

stdarg.h is weird

>no matter how much you learn in CS there are more new stuff being created than you can ever hope to catch up

is the optimal play to pick a niche and specialise? Should I become a JS specialist?

>>62427196
> Why D didn't adopt C++'s smart pointers when it had the chance?
Because smart pointers are useless without move semantic, and C++ didn't get it until 2011, by that time D was already balls-deep in GC. In a sense, modern C++ is more innovative than D.

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>>62427152
>those are called "professional software engineers" irl
That just reflects the sorry state of the entire field.

>they get paid writing software using a real world language
Yes, and this software sure is fast, memory-efficient, space-efficient, reliable, bug-free and feature-rich; "real software" is a testament to the virtues of sepples.

>>62427198
I see you learned a lot from yesterday's discussion. I hope you will start using strtok with gusto, anon.

>>62427196
Remember D was being built before the advent of smart pointers in C++.
Also the GC isn't as big of an issue as you think. You can use RAII or a mixture of GC and RAII (e.g. use RAII for the critical points of your application where you can't afford the GC's latency). There have been good developments recently on making the GC 100% optional. As it is now, it's almost perfect. The biggest drawback is losing a few runtime and library features.

>>62427247
I'm still waiting for a full-featured web-browser written not in C++.

>>62427198
I'll stick with my split thanks

>>62427247
By the way, do you know what other people are called "professional software engineers"? Java programmers.

In C++ why can't I directly modify the value of a pointer by doing the following?

int x = 1;
int *px = &x;
px = 1;

*px refers to the value of variable x, but px itself is a hexadecimal value, right?

>>62427330
You can, it just won't access valid memory.

Why is Microsoft so shit?

>Windows is written in pure C
>There is still no good compiler/IDE for C on Windows

Visual Studio doesn't count, it's shit for pure C and i had problems even with C++(11) not working in VS but working with MinGW/Clion

>>62427293
> Also the GC isn't as big of an issue as you think
Here we go again. Why do D-fags shill to C++ crowd and not to Java/C#/Python whatever? GC is too big of a stumbling blog for C and C++ programmers to even consider D, whatever hacks Andrei is going to come up with.

>>62427330
Integers and addresses are not interchangeable. Try px = (int*)1.

can I still post here if some of my columns exceed 80 characters?

>>62427297
>still waiting for an X not written in Y
Later when that happens...
>still waiting for a Z not written in Y
Later when that happens...
>still waiting for a P not written in Y
etc. Until your joke of a language finally loses momentum and dies.

>>62427352
>windows
Found your problem

>>62427330
>px itself is a hexadecimal value, right?
dissociate yourself from this way of thinking

px is a[n integer] pointer. that means it's some memory address, very likely a virtual one. it's not hexadecimal, octal, binary, ternary, pinary or anything of the sort. it's a memory address.

>>62427374
It's not happening tho, even Servo is being integrated into Gecko piece-meal, not replacing it.

>>62427340
But clang returns an error.
>>62427358
So to change the value of a pointer (and not the value to which it points), the right hand operand usually has to be a reference to a different variable?
>>62427400
I understand, thanks.

>>62427353
>GC is too big of a stumbling blog for C and C++ programmers to even consider
No, it isn't. The only blight it brings upon D is the existing reliance on it in some place of the library and runtime; thankfully, there's an ongoing effort to make it 100% optional in that regard. In the meantime, there are both alternatives in the standard library for the loss of functionality and in external libraries. Furthermore, as I've said, the evils of GC are overstated. If you know anything about software engineering, you'd realize having GC isn't a big deal as long as you can disable during critical points. Finally, "shill" is a buzzword that completely devalues your arguments.

>>62426259
Just created a channel for dem gay /dpt/ threadshots
https://t.me/dailyg

>>62427405
>It's not happening tho,
It'll die just like countless shit-tier "industry standard" tools did before it. For now they can get away with throwing more money at problems to make them disappear, but eventually software is going to get too complex for the pile of shit that is C++ and throwing more manhours to try to work around it will become a net loss.

>>62427423
>the right hand operand usually has to be a reference to a different variable?
No, it just has to be a compatible pointer type. (int*)4 and (char*)4 don't necessarily point to the same memory location. So "pointer = 4" doesn't work.

>>62427507
Ok, I get it. Thanks again.

>>62427124
I don't think they have as much, maybe a warehouse or two in germany but not more.
Internatlonal shipping is more expensive because it crosses borders even though they're within the EU (probably postal union regulations), and I can't buy cheap books like you can from India. The Swedish sellers take $110 or something for any hardcover book, doesn't really matter which one, so that's not an option.

Heh, D beats C++ any day if you are doing text manipulation

>>62427584
text manipulation has been C (and by extension C++)'s weakness for decades, so of course D beats it, because even python or javascript do as well

>>62426394
Vs code and vim for anything command line master race.

>>62427442
I'm not talking about technical merits of D's GC, I'm talking about the fact that no serious C/C++ programmer would consider using anything with GC if he can avoid it. And if he can't, he would use some popular language with lots of libraries, like Java and C#.
>ongoing effort to make it 100% optional
Why would I use a language, designed around GC, without GC?
>ongoing effort
This looks like an apt description of D in general: an ongoing effort, just wait a little, soon it'll be done.

>>62427584
And Perl beats D. Who cares.

There's a reason why every industry where performance is absolutely critical, from hedge funds to CERN, uses C++.

>>62427598
>This looks like an apt description of D in general: an ongoing effort, just wait a little, soon it'll be done.
To be fair, that fits C++ also, with its continual "the next standard will be good!"

>>62427584
And perl beats both, it doesn't mean it's any good.

>>62427627
Comparing perl to D is retarded. Comparing C++ to D isn't

>>62427630
C++ has been good since 11.

>>62427631
>>62427637

>>62427644
No, it took 2 releases to fix C++11

>>62427631
Perl is good, though.
>>62427637
You don't use a systems programming language to do text manipulation. You use the adequate tool for the job, unless of course you're severely autistic and need to make everything needlessly complicated to feel accomplished.
Nobody uses either C or C++ for text manipulation because it's not what they were designed for. If D can do it that's great, but nobody cares.

>>62427656
Sure, whatever you say.

>>62427637
Comparing system languages based on their ability to manipulate text is retarded too. Besides, I'm pretty sure C++ + Boost beat whatever D can offer, so it's more like a library issue and not a language one.

>>62427644
C++ wasn't usable until 11.
All I care about in C++14 and C++17 is library stuff, stuff I can live without or handroll.

I have a question:
Why isn't strtok implemented like strlen, only with a XOR operation first?
https://git.musl-libc.org/cgit/musl/tree/src/string/strtok.c
https://git.musl-libc.org/cgit/musl/tree/src/string/strlen.c

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>>62426259
So I'm aware that there are more specialized ways to embed a scripting language into C, but if I want to keep it simple and general, are pipes a reliable way to go? That way the user can script in any language he or she wants, and just send a couple of bytes into C to run the functions. Or is there a significant performance overhead for going down this route?

>>62427668
>You don't use a systems programming language to do text manipulation.
C++ is a purist language, one of the very rare out there. It's used for everything so I don't see the point.

MS Word, Visual Studio etc are written in C++

>>62427686
D's ranges is shit ton better than anything boost has, don't delude yourself if you don't know what you are talking about. D is miles ahead with it's Ranges, iterators and UFCS. I used boost and range v3 myself. Too weak compared to that of D

>>62427598
>I'm not talking about technical merits of D's GC
Then we've reached the root of the problem: nobody wants to talk about how maybe, just maybe, that a GC isn't pure evil. You can make a performance critical program with a GC enabled by disabling at important junctions (which you do with D!). And even then, as I've said before, though D was designed around the GC, things have been moving against that. There are easy alternatives you can use within the language that obviate the downfalls of the disabling the GC.
With regards to using Java/C#/similar, they suck in both performance, design, and features compared to D.
Instead of spouting these opinions that reek of someone not knowing about D and GC in general, I suggest you go to the D forums and website to learn it.

>>62427630
C++ is usable since C++11, it's just getting better since then. nogc is an `ongoing effort` I'm not supposed to be using right now, yet D-fags keep shilling it as if it's stable.

>>62427739
Spouting these ignorant opinions and blabbing about "shilling" is just proof you don't anything about D but shitposts.

>>62427245
Unless you're talking about highly academic circlejerks this isn't even true. The phenomenon of having to learn some new bullshit every six months only exists for nu-male languages in nu-male professions: namely js "code ninjas." Unless you want to be a nu-male, this isn't a problem.

>>62427692
>C++ wasn't usable until 11.
Which is why it was so widely used? Wait.
It wasn't good, but was definitely usable.
>>62427724
>It's used for everything
"Everything" just means that any kind of application of project can conceivably be written using C++.
That doesn't mean you should write sysadmin scripts in C++.

what language would be best for writing a program which calculates someone's intelligence?

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>>62427774
Anime.

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Why do sepples fags keep shilling for their shit-tier anti-language? They're like a human form of cancer.

>>62427766
>That doesn't mean you should write sysadmin scripts in C++.
Which is why C++ and shell languages like perl don't mix. Same goes with D and perl.

Thank you for proving my point though.

>>62427794
Because you keep bitching about it.

>>62427818
>proving my point though.
Which was? That C++ can do anything? Yeah, it can.
>>62427794
>shilling
C++ doesn't need to be shilled.

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>>62427782
>tfw 143 iq

>>62427732
> GC isn't pure evil
If GC isn't pure evil, then why is D team working on @nogc?
> You can make a performance critical program with a GC enabled by disabling at important junctions (which you do with D!)
Yeah, but why would I do that? I mean, that the benefits of this mixed GC/no-gc approach comparing to straight no-GC smart-pointers based approach? The latter is strictly faster and has a small footprint.
> Java/C#/similar, they suck in both performance, design, and features compared to D.
For some reason, I'm pretty sure Java would outperform D on real world tasks.

The real question tho, if C++ doesn't cut it anymore, why would anyone use D over Rust? You don't have to deal with "it's GC, but you can disable it, but not really, but we're working on it" bullshit, it's faster, safer and has smaller memory footprint.

>>62427794
Because even though it has flaws, it is a lot better than whatever sjw language you shill.

>>62427875
How can a language be ``sjw``?

>>62427875
What are C++'s main flaws?
I'm learning it right now.

>>62427886
Everything I don't like is SJW, you cuck.

>>62427858
>The latter is strictly faster
A GCd program can often outperform a program that uses refcounted pointers for everything. Especially if the heap is large.

>>62427896
No standard build system

>>62427896
It's pretty fucking huge and you WILL step on edge cases while working with it. Suits my job, though.

>>62427851
>C++ doesn't need to be shilled.
Then why do sepples fags keep shilling so hard? It's almost like they're afraid people would stop falling for this meme if they don't keep up their Jewish marketing tactics.

>Because even though it has flaws, it is a lot better than whatever sjw language you shill.
It's a horrible language in every respect.

>>62427930
>huge
How is that a problem? I mean, you don't use every single feature of a language.
>edge cases
Like what, for example?

>>62427914
> A GCd program can often outperform a program that uses refcounted pointers for everything.
Right, this is why neither modern C++ nor Rust use ref counting for everything, go read about std::unique_ptr, move semantic and borrow checker.

>>62427896
I'm learning it too. One thing I really hate about it is its header files system, and lack of project management.

IDEs can emulate them for you though.

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I've been working on nntpchan this morning
http://hhm7xtxhjwaz6fhsgztxoxsspzjnkyjz7kqrpdxfccq6j7vhq6mq.b32.i2p/o/

got it running with i2pd on an rpi 1 b

 15:29:09 up 12 days, 23:53,  6 users,  load average: 0.42, 0.43, 0.50 

load isn't too bad

>>62427972
>header files system
Aren't they identical to C's?

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How come my programming skills increase between 8PM -1AM?

>>62427993
Not for long, C++ is going to get modules soon

>>62427993
yep, basically the same as C, for compatibility i guess

>>62427972
You hate it now, but you'll love it when you realized that the header is turing complete

>>62427858
>If GC isn't pure evil, then why is D team working on @nogc?
Because while a GC is good for most tasks, it's undesirable when you need all the performance you can get. But as I've said over and over again, you can disable the GC for these points where performance is critical, but there's a minor cost that's imposed in terms of some functionality loss. (There are alternatives in the std library that help offset this at the moment.) The point of @nogc is to give 100% functionality regardless if you're using the GC or not; thus allowing us the freedom to 100% mix GC and other memory management efforts or completely disable the GC in its entirety.
>Yeah, but why would I do that? I mean, that the benefits of this mixed GC/no-gc approach comparing to straight no-GC smart-pointers based approach? The latter is strictly faster and has a small footprint.
Not always. You underestimate how good GCs are these days and the productivity boost from using a GC for most things.
>For some reason, I'm pretty sure Java would outperform D on real world tasks.
Unless you specify this reason with facts and data, you're wrong. Please don't make assumptions.
With regards to Rust, I haven't studied it enough nor used it to form anything worthwhile (I will be trying it out soon though since I've installed it on my chinkpad.). As such I won't make any comparisons between D and Rust.

>>62427875
Stop with this SJW bullshit. Yes they're annoying, but please judge a language by itself and no the fags who made it. Christ, you'd /g/ is /pol/.

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r8 css

>>62428056
>judge a language by itself and no the fags who made it.
We weren't even talking about any specific language. This cretin seems to think all languages besides sepples were made by SJWs. Typical sepples brainletism.

>>62428076
>jeff

>>62428076
I wish overchan was a bit faster.

>>62428076
>>>/x/

Anyone here prefer programming while on medication? I feel like a fucking MIT grad while programming on adderall

>>62427960
Just my incoherent list of what I can say from the top of my head:
There are about 10 types of initialization. Most of the time you won't care which one is envoked, until you fuck up. List initialization is a bit fucky.
You can use std::function... until you realize it's fucking slow and you have to templatize your code to pass closures directly.
Most Vexing Parse.
Everything about templates (though that's only if you're writing a generic library, there's no SFINAE and shit in the codebase I work with).
Actually determining when constexpr is running at compile-time.
Rules of zero/three/five.
Exact understanding of move semantics is tricky to get.
STL sometimes is just too fucking unwieldy (ranges gonna change that, though).

>>62428101
I used to too but then stopped caring.
>>62428095
>muh naym jeff

>>62428125
>Actually determining when constexpr is running at compile-time.
What do you mean?

>>62428125
Also, never use default parameters. At all. ESPECIALLY if you inherit something. You'll thank me later.

>>62428129
yeah, not funny

>>62428191
>STOP HAVING FUN
nah

>>62428189
Why is that?

>>62428209
naah, fun's nice, especially with some of dem programming socks uwu

>>62428235
OwO

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How do we get rid of all the memers?

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>>62428343
Intelligent posts.

>man 3 getopt

SYNOPSIS
    #include <unistd.h>

>include it
>warning: implicit declaration of function 'getopt'

why
this shit compiles everywhere that isn't linux
fucking GNU more like GNPoo

>>62428343
>How do we get rid of all the memers?
Spam filter against C++ syntax and terminology.

>>62428439
You're doing something wrong.

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I have a Macbook with 8GB RAM, is that enough for iOS dev using Xcode? I'd go with the 16GB model but I'm broke.
>pls hold the macbook vs my brand of choice flamewar stuff
Would appreciate insight from someone who's actively developing for iOS

>tfw not competent in C

>>62428829
how

>>62428842
segv on unknown address 0x0 :^(

>>62428893
That's a null pointer deref

Is there some standardized way to call DLL exports over network with windows? Basically
>run client
>it connects to server
>server has the function signatures
>sends arbitrary code to execute to client
>server handles pass-by-reference by sending the appropriate code

muh monads

>>62427896
headers.
in C they are fine. just types + names and small static functions.

but its not so nice in c++,
classes are uglier, anything with templates or any function that returns unnamable types(lambdas) need to be in them.
linking time is huge because every .o has its own copy of everything, its so bad that just compiling all the source files at once can be much much faster.

>>62429127
Unity builds ftw

>>62429002
I guess you would need a way to handle memory based on the function signatures, or just a shim so you can access remote memory with local functions. And a wrapper so you can run a local application but do some of its calls to a random machine (eg stdout goes back to the server, but file calls goes to the machine)
I guess file handling would be a pain in the ass since you need to figure out what to handle on the client and what on the server, you have tradeoffs for how much of the application is loaded where.
Is there anything like this already?

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>>62428682
Clearly, but I can't for the life of me figure out what.

>>62427896
>What are C++'s main flaws?
The fact that it exists as an actual language that's being used instead of an academic example of how not to design a language.

C >>>>> PHP > asm > Lisp > Lua > sepples > JS (pure) > Haskell > Python 3 > Python 2 > shell scripting > (SJW C replacements) > Java >>>>> (SJW JS replacements)

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>>62427722
>double dubs
>double trips in image res
impressive

>>62427794
>>62427896
Sepples is the epitome of mediocrity, like a mcdonalds hamburger, but it's not really bad either
>reasonably fast
>supports most programming styles
>can write sane code
>well supported

>>62427722
Works decently, sure. IPC this way is fast enough to implement on both sides and has good performance.

What prevents a program running as an unprivileged user from guessing file handles and reading out data?

>>62429448
the operating system

>>62426656
>if (d < 0 or f < 0) m_sign = -1;
shouldn't this be a xor?

>>62429389
>Sepples is the epitome of mediocrity
No, that's Java.

>can write sane code
That's where you're wrong, kiddo.

>>62429389
>>reasonably fast
lol

>>62429260
>t. Haskell fizzbuzzer

>>62429541
C++ is slow?

>>62429389
>>62429551
It's pretty much as fast as C.

>>62429548
Why do unemployed sepples shills always assume that anyone who doesn't buy into their meme is on the same level of inexperience as they are?

>>62429567
>implying it's possible to be experienced in C++ and be unemployed
Alright kid

>>62426656
Just write it in C, much saner. Also avoid magics. Don't have separate values for "before" and "after" dot, just use either an int and mask or a struct.

>>62429330
Sad

>>62429582
>implying anyone who's experienced in C++ would shill for it unironically
Only the ones who don't know any other language and whose entire career depends on that shit sandwich staying in vogue.

>>62429565
How fast it is depends on how you write it. You could write a C++ program in the same style as a C program and the only thing which might slow you down then would be the lack of features to control pointer aliasing.

will someone hire me as a junior dev if I have a spotty work history and currently work at Walmart?

>>62426259
How to go about using the Scanner class in Java to use parse a single line of text and gain two Strings and two doubles out of it.

So, say someone is going to enter a message of:
>String1 . Double1. Double2. String2.
I'm currently trying:
String s1 = scan.next();
double d1 = scan.nextDouble();
doublc d2 = scan.nextDouble();
String s2 = scan.nextLine();

This is printing out
String 1, Double 1 & Double 2 but is printing out a blank.

>>62429534
Java is worse since in trying to be portable it becomes the exact opposite. C++ can emulate any programming style, just write C code and call it C++ when in doubt, did that for all my classes.
>>62429565
Maybe, yes. Compilation sure isn't.

>>62429606
You cannot expect a junior to have 5+ years of relevant experience so you'll be fine.

                                                                                                                                                                                                        unless you're a nigger

>>62429629
I'm white and at least average IQ / capable of doing the job without writing cs_grad_meme.jpg code

but I have no degree and I man a cash register so I'm worried.

>>62429590
Find a flaw.
>>62429606
If you can program, sure. We have a lot of ex-NEETs here who work decent-paying codemonkey jobs.

>>62429604
I shill for C++ and also work with python, which I also like a lot

>>62429644
PHP being anywhere near the top

>>62429640
Oh, without at least a bachelors degree you're going to have a really hard time finding a job.
Do you have any interesting projects in your portfolio?

>>62429604
If you're actually experienced in C++, you won't have any trouble picking up other languages.
>staying in vogue
Anyone who implies C++ is dying or will be dying anytime soon is completely ignorant or retarded.
It's heavily used in research, development, engineering, finance, you name it. It's here to stay, and not in the COBOL sense.

>>62429664
>without at least a bachelors degree you're going to have a really hard time finding a job.
I don't find this to be true at all
tons of employers no longer care whether or not you have a degree for programming positions

>>62429687
>If you're actually experienced in C++, you won't have any trouble picking up other languages.
of course, once you know C++ you will immediately know Haskell and Lisp

>>62429626
>Java is worse
Depends how you look at it. If I was working on a project alone, I'd take C++ over Java, mostly on account of Java's dearth of features. If it involves other programmers, I'd go with Java any day. Dealing with the "clever" and "performant" """designs""" of sepples monkeys just ain't worth it.

>C++ can emulate any programming style,
It can emulate every bad programming and unsuitable programming style (at least for the purpose of writing high-level code).

>>62429702
>you will immediately know Haskell and Lisp
Right... because those are the relevant languages that you'd be using in place of C++...

>>62429687
>if you're actually experienced in C++, you won't have any trouble picking up other languages.
Guess how I know you've never programmed in anything besides curly brace languages.

>>62429702
Yeah, because Haskell and Lisp have a very large job market, right? Wake up.
Lisp's learning curve is nothing like C++'s. If anything you'd have trouble with Haskell because of how alien pure functional programming seems to most programmers at first.

>>62429743
>implying Haskell or Common Lisp aren't better choices than C++ 99% of the time

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>>62429664
>>62429691
>Do you have any interesting projects in your portfolio?
I want a mobile dev job. So far, I have a barcode saver app which implements someone else's barcode library and is mostly a proof of concept, I wrote it when I was first learning. The most useful thing it does is geofencing which enables it to show a notification when you arrive at your favorite place. I use it to quickly and automatically pull up my gym pass whenever I arrive at the gym, it saves a bit of time.

I also have a trading app for the Bittrex platform, a cryptocurrency exchange. It's not public yet but I use it for my own purposes. I'll probably open source it when I start applying.

I also have a 4chan client which is about 99% completed. It's written natively in Swift for iOS. My current roadmap includes implementing webm support (maybe using ffmpeg? I don't know how to do this yet) and then writing the Android version from scratch (natively).

I've basically focused on cleanliness of my code, good habits, etc., and I've had people critique my code here and there so I know what the 'best' way to implement things is. I really only know iOS dev, though, and I'm just starting to learn Android.

w-what's the prognosis

>>62429691
Really? What country are you talking about? In my country (The Netherlands) most job applications require you to have at least a bachelors degree and preferably a masters degree. Preferably with 2+ years of relevant experience for a junior position.

>>62429748
Guess how I know you're unemployed?
Hint: because Lisp, Haskell, Idris or whatever you like jacking off to isn't used in the real world outside of extremely niche fields.
>>62429763
Yeah. They're so much better that their combined market share barely breaks 1%. Fuck, you people are delusional.
Even Jane Street doesn't use OCaml for everything.

>>62429755
C++ has basically no learning curve. Even a monkey like you can grasp all of its anti-features. The only thing difficult about it is memorizing its bloated and byzantine set of retarded rules and special cases (all of which stem from bad design).

>>62429748
>Guess how I know you've never programmed in anything besides languages that actually matter
LISP is cool but not very useful nowadays senpai

>>62429765
you're good to go
most entry level devs can't program a fucking thing on their own

>>62429773
the US
almost every job posting here says something along the lines of
>Bachelors degree or equivalent experience
and the bar for "equivalent of a bachelors degree" is insanely low, because recent grads are almost completely useless

>>62429779
>Guess how I know you're unemployed?
You don't. You're just assuming it. Now, as someone who does have to work with C++ on a regular basis in a professional setting (very much unlike you) I can tell you that it is a fucking awful language. You'll learn this when (if) you encounter your first large corporate code-base.

>judging languages by popularity
Even a sepples monkey like you knows perfectly well why judging quality by popularity is retarded. Except when it comes to your meme anti-language, that is.

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>>62429785
>C++ has basically no learning curve.
Yep, you, an anonymous Haskell fanatic who spends all of his time shitting on C++ on 4chan, is right, and everyone else is wrong.

>>62429797
>sepples monkey talking about usefulness
Opinion discarded.

>>62429851
Yep, you, a sepples monkey, is capable of forming an informed opinion. Go on, tell me all about those powerful C++ features that are so difficult to understand.

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>>62429844
>you're good to go
>most entry level devs can't program a fucking thing on their own
What do you mean? I'm not a complete shut-in or totally socially retarded, but I've always existed in this really shitty low-class area full of hicks and morons. I work at Walmart. I guess what I'm trying to say is that I'm in a bit of a bubble and I'm absolutely horrified at the prospect of applying for a 'real' job where the interviewers wear nice suits and expect me to have a nice suit... I know that probably sounds completely idiotic but it's the truth.

I'm also really fearful that I can't actually do shit. Like, I can whip up a simple app and I know muh CRUD and muh JSON and whatever else but I feel like 'real' programmers do something that I don't.

I know this isn't reddit but I need someone to pat me on the back and tell me that it's gonna be ok ;_; or at least give me some actually constructive if harsh criticism

>>62429773
>In my country (The Netherlands
isn't education 'free' there? that's probably why.

>>62429890
>'real' job where the interviewers wear nice suits and expect me to have a nice suit
that's not a programming job
if you show up in a suit you wont get the job
show up in a tshirt and slacks or nice jeans, that's what the interviewers will be wearing, too

> but I feel like 'real' programmers do something that I don't.
you got it backwards
the 'real' programmers who are applying for the position you are can't
>whip up a simple app

you're the programmer that they are fearful about

>>62429254
Did you try just including getopt.h

>>62429849
>pretending you have a job on fucking /g/
How pathetic.
No professional programmer working with a modern language says shit like that. You're such a tool.
>judging quality by popularity is retarded
No, it's not when you're talking about industries that actually matter and don't jump on the latest trends. Industries where performance is important, for example.
Stop spouting /g/ memes and get an internship or something

Who am I kidding, you'll keep monitoring these threads from your mother's basement, waiting for some poor guy to voice a positive opinion of C++ to unleash your autistic rage and larp about how professional you are.

>>62429863
>>62429884
>sepples monkey
Yeah, you're mentally challenged.

>>62429937
>if you show up in a suit you wont get the job
>show up in a tshirt and slacks or nice jeans, that's what the interviewers will be wearing, too
This is so confusing. I'm trying to dress a bit better now that I have some money put away and every time I go to a wedding or to a nice event people there are wearing nice suits or at least nice dress shirts, nice shoes etc., but I keep seeing this thing about software people showing up barefoot with graphic T's and such...

will I look retarded if I show up in a dress shirt and some slacks? Can I tuck it in?

I have real anxiety about this. Everyone seems to think it's very possible to be either overdressed or underdressed. I'd never have considered showing up to a 'real' job interview in anything other than a suit, but I've never actually had a real interview

fug

>>62429765
I'm an Android developer, so I can only comment on that.
It's hard to judge you without seeing your code. My general rule thumb for a competent programmer is: knows the ecosystem. You have to know the language, the frameworks, the libraries and the tools. I don't expect a junior to know them in and out, but I expect a junior to know what to use and why.

>>62429996
It depends on the company you're applying for
you could wear a plaid dress shirt and slacks if you want
unironically it would work better if you also wear buddy holly glasses because now you're rocking the hipster look

>>62429956
>n-n-no it's not true! you don't have a job
Keep telling that to yourself, sepples monkey.

>No professional programmer working with a modern language says shit like that
But they all do, even the ones who think sepples is the lesser of multiple evils. Literally no one who's worked on large C++ projects for any length of time thinks C++ is an enjoyable language to program in except for those who only know C or Java.

>No, it's not
Yes, it is retarded and for the very same reasons. It's clear that you've never worked in a big company because you unironically believe that decisions like that are made on the basis of some intricate analysis and not literally on the basis of memes, legacy and what other companies are doing.

>>62429925
It used to be free.

>>62430036
>unironically it would work better if you also wear buddy holly glasses because now you're rocking the hipster look
not sure if you're trolling but I've got some (legit) browline glasses of the original make/model from the 50's, they're definitely hipster-tier and I blend right in with all of the people who want to end white supremacy by replacing us with empowered black women coders or whatever

>>62430084
not trolling
making a statement works, which is why you hear about the barefoot graphic T people
showing up way overdressed doesn't work

>>62430017
Thank you for the advice

>>62430129
Would the kind of simple/standard charcoal slacks with white/blue/light grey dress shirt work as a catch-all?
>making a statement works, which is why you hear about the barefoot graphic T people

>>62430188
>with white/blue/light grey dress shirt work as a catch-all?
I'll give you a soft yes
it'll be weird at some interviews though
it'll seem like you didn't look into the culture of the company at all before you showed up to the interview, which isn't a good sign

Looking for Haskell programmers, drop e-mail and some qualifications/experience

>>62430211
>it'll be weird at some interviews though
>it'll seem like you didn't look into the culture of the company at all before you showed up to the interview, which isn't a good sign
What's the socially acceptable way to handle this? Ask before the interview?

>>62429940
Yes, and it works as expected. I'm more concerned about the fact that both the manual page and the GNU libc online document state that I just need to include unistd.h for access to getopt().
If they can't even get the manual right, what else have they fucked up?
I'm just venting at this point so I'll leave it at that.

>>62426259
Working in Ruby, when I write:

(self.has_key? :id)

I get the error message:
NoMethodError: undefined method `has_key?'

>>62430230
you're supposed to google them first and figure it out
or somehow contact someone who works there and ask
it'd be a lot better to just show up dressed like you normally dress because this is what is expected of a programmer in 95% of cases

>>62428007
Because you've ingested enough caffeine over the day to treat your latent adult onset ADHD

>>62430253
>it'd be a lot better to just show up dressed like you normally dress because this is what is expected of a programmer in 95% of cases
i'm from the midwest and i generally wear a t shirt with jeans/shorts, or maybe an ocbd or a pull-over if it's chilly...

i've never seen anyone show up to a job interview wearing anything other than either a suit or slacks/shirt/tie

Are normal/applicative evaluation orders related to lazy/eager evaluation?

>>62430290
you'll never land a programming job if you show up in a tie
unless it's part of your hipster fashion and you're wearing it ironically

programming jobs are different in that regard, the interview is mostly about figuring out if you fit in with the culture and are at least half-way competent

Fuck make
Fuck opengl
Fuck vhdl

>>62430363
why

>>62426259
multi billion dollar project that I can't talk about and never release because of the kikes

>>62430339
>you'll never land a programming job if you show up in a tie
>unless it's part of your hipster fashion and you're wearing it ironically
I don't know shit about fashion, but for me, no suit = no tie. I only ever wear a shirt+pants or a suit+tie

> the interview is mostly about figuring out if you fit in with the culture
this is going to be hard to fake

>well uh i spent my early 20's traveling south america by motorcycle, meeting new people and enjoying the vibrant culture
>y-yeah I love bernie sanders
>that cafe on fifth, activated almonds express? i go there every week, that place is great. they even have Shit Tornado, my favorite microbrew you've never heard of.

>>62430249
Never mind the object self isn't a hashtable I had to access the hashtable inside self

>>62430370
>thinking that this syntax is acceptable

$(BUILDDIR)/%.o: %.c
    @echo -e "[CC]\t$<"
    @mkdir -p "$(dir $@)"
    @$(CC) $(CPPFLAGS) $(CFLAGS) $(L_INC) -o "$@" -c "$<"

$(BUILDDIR)/%.o: %.cpp
    @echo -e "[CXX]\t$<"
    @mkdir -p "$(dir $@)"
    @$(CXX) $(CPPFLAGS) $(CXXFLAGS) $(L_INC) -o "$@" -c "$<"

$(BUILDDIR)/%.o: %.ino
    @echo -e "[CXX]\t$<"
    @mkdir -p "$(dir $@)"
    @$(CXX) $(CPPFLAGS) $(CXXFLAGS) $(L_INC) -o "$@" -x c++ -include Arduino.h -c "$<"

$(TARGET).elf: $(OBJS) $(LDSCRIPT)
    @echo -e "[LD]\t$@"
    @$(CC) $(LDFLAGS) -o "$@" $(OBJS) $(LIBS)

>fuck loading opengl functions and having to check support for every fucking feature

VHDL is just too verbose, also case insensite so faggots program it like SQL WITH CRUISE CONTROL FOR COOL ALWAYS ON except FOR SOME FUCKING VARIABLE names FUCK READABILITY

>>62430401
honestly if you're that far outside the culture you're going to have a hard time staying at the job after you get it
you'll probably hate it

>>62429663
PHP gives you a lot of freedom. You can write clean code in it, and it's fast as hell, and you're not arbitrarily limited for >clean code reasons like python.
>>62429731
You can write literal C, as well as functional programming.

>>62430430
Can you elaborate on what the culture might be like? I can honestly just suck it up even if it's really shitty manchild-tier stuff. That would definitely beat a stuffy corporate environment where bureaucracy makes me want to kill myself or something.

I only really know about hipster stuff through the Internet and having met some of them IRL. Mostly it just seems to be about giving them validation and making them feel as special as possible. If that's all I need to do, I've got it covered.

I need to render 2D graphics an text in a software-only (no GPU acceleration because it's too much trouble), cross-platform manner. Cairo can mostly be convinced to do the graphics part, but I'm not sure about text. Google gives me a Linux-specific clusterfuck of HarfBuzz, Pango, Freetype, Fontconfig, blah blah blah. I don't want any of that shit. I want this:
>load a .ttf
>set some text
>set a font size
>set a paragraph width
>set it to wrap
>set it to fully justify lines, hyphenating as needed
>ask it how tall that is going to end up being
>create an RGBA buffer in memory with the specified width and computed height from before
>tell it to render to that buffer
I need this to work on Windows, macOS, Android, iOS, and preferably most anything else. I don't really give a fuck about Gee Enn You Slash Linux, I guess it would be nice if it worked there too.

Surely this exists? Surely I don't have to wrestle with the aforementioned clusterfuck?

>>62430432
>You can write literal C
Yup, and that's one thing you don't want to do when you're doing high-level programming.

>as well as functional programming
No, no you can't. If you think otherwise, I can give you a simple snippet and we'll see what the equivalent C++ code would look like.

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Probably a weird question, but can anyone explain the _RS counter in some assemblers to me like I'm an idiot? Documentation all seems to think you already know what it is, and google is failing me.

As far as I can tell, it's involved in defining structures in memory. Something like you set _RS to an address in memory, then increment it using directives to to reserve bytes/words/longs while assigning a label for each one so it can be accessed in your code. Is that about right? I don't understand what advantage that would have over just setting the ORG (or equivalent directive) before defining the structure, or just using a linker script to place it in memory, or what exactly is happening when RSRESET is used before defining a structure which seems to be way more common than explicitly setting an address.

>>62430473
why? and no you won't get software rendered text like that without resorting to platform-specific code for each platform you're aiming for

>>62430363
>make
just have a build.sh file that runs gcc, works good enough
>>62430417
It's provably because you don't have much of parenthesizes etc, so you use caps for keywords. It's justified in SQL at least.

i want to get paid to program, but frontend web ui and backend web database make me want to choke others/myself, and literally every other job posting i can find mandates the degree and X years of professional experience i don't have

am i fucked?

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>>62430463
bernie bros
sjw women
offices that look like pic related
basically, it's a fuck load of liberals being all liberal and you're not one of them

>>62430492
My reasoning is that the rest of my drawing is going to be in software and will therefore be 100% consistent across platforms, so why not do the same for text?
>you won't get software rendered text like that without resorting to platform-specific code for each platform you're aiming for
That's very surprising. It doesn't seem like text should be a platform-specific thing. As far as I can tell there is no technical reason it has to be.

>>62430511
can I get away with "I don't talk about politics at work" or will they know
;_;

>>62430432
>PHP gives you a lot of freedom.
>You can write clean code in it
>it's fast as hell
>you're not arbitrarily limited for >clean code reasons like python.
>

>>62430537
>hey man, Bernie, amirite?
>>I don't talk politics at work
its all ogre

Why hasn't anyone made win32 api and JS bindings for PHP? You (and Pajeet) could shit out apps at breakneck speeds with Electron.

>>62430541
>>it's fast as hell
it's not.
>>You can write clean code in it
Too bad that people who decide to make projects in PHP cannot write clean code.
>>PHP gives you a lot of freedom.
Not really, it's just programming language.

>>62430553
plan B)
>Yeah man! Are you going to the protest later? If you want to tag along we can hit up Activated Almonds Express on the way back, crack open a few Shit Tornados.

>>62430569
Nigga read the chain more closely

>>62430504
What's wrong with backend database work?

>>62430579
much better plan
the only issue now is to behave less conservative throughout the day
don't be all uptight about everything
be relaxed and laid back
and you might be able to get away with it for a while

https://bitbashing.io/std-visit.html

It's not even mentioned in the article, but I find it hilarious that

variant<string, int, bool> mySetting = "Hello!";

initializes the third alternative.

>>62430619
>y-yeah i'd love to take a break and go play some xbox with you in the middle of the work day
tfw the last time i tried playing xbox it had been so long that i was honestly terrible and had no fun even attempting to play
>manchild turning into an adult and resenting the world around him
>disillusioned
>cant even have fun playing video games
what am i worth
why had god forsaken me

>>62430631
what's the explanation for this, is it because it's a pointer?
I'd use a literal suffix anyway desu

>>62426398
the second one
or you can just omit the semicolon and put then on it's own line

>>62430536
>That's very surprising. It doesn't seem like text should be a platform-specific thing. As far as I can tell there is no technical reason it has to be.
What makes you think so? You want it software rendered so each OS deals with it differently depending on how their stock text rendering works.

>>62430667
>manchild turning into an adult and resenting the world around him
>disillusioned
>cant even have fun playing video games
going through the same thing right now my man
we're gonna make it though
I hope ;;

>>62430670
Yeah, pointers get implictly converted to bool before the compiler considers user defined conversions.

>>62430727
Makes sense, but it's still pants.
Which, like I said, is why I use "foo"s suffix everywhere I actually want a string.

Okay, I'm the Ruby idiot and I have this code:

class Sets
  attr_accessor :set_hash

  def initialize
    set_hash = Hash.new(0)
  end

  def addSet(set_id, words)
    if (set_id < 0) || (words.empty?) || (self.set_hash.has_key? :set_id) then
      return false
    else
      self.set_hash[:set_id] = words
      return true
    end
  end
end

I get the error:
NoMethodError: undefined method `has_key?' for nil:NilClass

I don't know why my hash is nil.

>>62430712
Are you currently working in an office like the one you described above? Assuming you're the same guy

>>62430541
Not an argument.
>>62430569
fast as hell [to write]
Pajeet's and not Rasmus' fault
>Not really, it's just programming language.
But it doesn't have retarded "rules" like Python.

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>>62430739
>pants
Now I'm wondering when we'll get to the point where we use pants to mean retarded

>>62430784
don't be pants anon

>>62430757
I'm the same guy, but no I'm working freelance right now because I'm still too much of a manchild to actually go in to work 4-5 days a week
starting to get worried about it though because pretty soon I'll be too old to fit in with the regular programmers

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>>62430801
>starting to get worried about it though because pretty soon I'll be too old to fit in with the regular programmers
I'm turning 27 soon

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>>62430784

>>62430749
Can anyone halp?

>>62430801
>>62430835
Can you give me any tips on freelancing? That might be a good way to get some real experience under my belt before applying to any 'real' jobs. I'd appreciate it. (Assuming you're actually freelancing and not just kinda-sorta bullshitting which is what I do when people ask what I do)

>>62430631
>variant<int, float>
Perfect.

>>62430490
I think I figured it out after reading more usages of it in source files. If you set _RS to an address, you're effectively defining an offset from $0 (the start of address space), so it's the same as explicitly defining a label for a memory address. If you use RSRESET (or its equivalent), you're effectively defining a list of named offsets after that which could then be applied to any address (although it'd obviously only make sense if the address you're offsetting is the start of an instance of the structure you're defining).

>>62430850
I recently bought a house with the money I made freelancing
I found my clients on elance (no longer exists) and now they pay me directly
check out upwork and apply to all the programs you want to make
don't copy and paste a generic application, make it a direct response to the problem that was posted
make sure your profile makes you out to be a high quality programmer worth the $40-$80/hour that you're gonna charge

>>62430835
I'm 28
it's not too late
is what I tell myself so I don't get too anxious about it

>>62430537
Just nod and say yes while trying to resist looking apathetic. It's what I do and it works just fine. You might have to yell into a pillow when you get home though.

>>62430927
>make sure your profile makes you out to be a high quality programmer worth the $40-$80/hour that you're gonna charge
I see your point, but between you and I, I'm a beginner and I've never done a thing. How do I start getting my first gig(s)?

>Upwork
My general impression of this site is that it's basically Indians working for $2/hour and people looking to hire them for about that rate. Am I mistaken?

>>62430970
Let's be friends.

I'm thinking about writting a console-based Tony Hawk styled skateboard competition program. Should I write it in Java or C++?

>>62430295
bumping, plz help
am I retarded

>>62430784
dumb emojiposter

>>62430835
dumb frogposter

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>>62430980
>Should I write it in Java or C++?
>java
>c++

>>62430978
>Am I mistaken?
you're right
but you're not trying to land those clients, you're trying to land the 15% of clients that are looking to hire a westerner
and it's very possible that you are the only westerner who applies, which makes their choice easy

what happens is these people have already tried hiring indians and dirt cheap russians in the past, got burnt a bunch of times, and now want to pay and get their moneys worth

>How do I start getting my first gig(s)?
just apply to the things that you know you can do, and then it doesn't matter if you're a beginner or not

>>62430295
>Are normal/applicative evaluation orders related to lazy/eager evaluation?
Normal evaluation order is basically lazy evaluation of function arguments. Applicative evaluation order is eager evaluation of function arguments.

>>62430749
I'll just ask one more time. I'm new to Ruby.

>>62431059
>>62430749
I don't know Ruby that much, but probably the attribution your initializer should read self.set_hash or @set_hash, and not only set_hash. Also I think class variables are acessed with @variableName.

>>62431035
>just apply to the things that you know you can do, and then it doesn't matter if you're a beginner or not
That sounds reasonable. How much do you think I should ask for or aim to ask for when starting out on Upwork? I want to build up my portfolio since I have nothing to show to potential employers beyond my limited personal projects.

I assumed nobody would even take a second glance at me since I have nothing to show for myself yet, a sort of unbreakable cycle.

Thanks for the tips, btw, I really appreciate it. It's rough not having anyone to ask advice from. Most people here would rather just bicker about obscure languages and It seems like everyone on Reddit is a 19-year-old who thinks (maybe rightfully, i don't know) that he's going to be working at Google and making $200k by the time he's 24, so it's tough to get worthwhile advice of any sort.

>>62431043
Thanks, I'm just starting SICP because I want to stop being a brainlet.

By the way, is it wrong if I indent my Scheme like this? I don't want to pick up bad habits early but this is so much easier for me.

(define (func arg)
        (otherfunc arg))

Why do people hire western programmers when russians and to a certain degree chinese are both better and cheaper?
>captcha: calle indian
>calle is street in spanish

Any suggestions? I'm a dummy professional php developer with no education. However, I know I'm capable of becoming and actual software developer using language like c/c++/python etc. The only problem is that I don't know where to start. Obviously, learn a software language, duh, but what after that? What does the toolchain of software look like verse a web app with shit like webpack and deployment tools like deploy.io? How can I start doing?

>>62431129
Thanks that was it.

>read ghc as garbage haskell collector in my head
>read strncpy as es-trenn-se-pyh
>read malloc as mahl-lock
What odd habits do you have?

>>62431149
$40/hour is the magic number for entry level but high quality western freelancers
I wouldn't go below that because it can look desperate
it's the acceptable rate to start at on these freelancing sites, then when you have a number of 100% jobs under your belt, you raise the rate in your profile to around $65, and eventually $80
there are people who get away with $120/hour rates on these sites, too

you'll wanna bullshit on your profile and fluff it up a bunch
most clients you want will just skim it to check that it's in perfect english and professionally written
that's the key, not the actual projects (if any) that you list/describe

https://bitbashing.io/std-visit.html

Half the way into the article, I felt like crying. Is it just me or is the standards committee actively trying to reduce the number of existing C++ programmers?

>>62431154
It's not "wrong", it's just ugly. There's no reason to align the argument list with the function call when they're unrelated.

>>62431235
>$40/hour is the magic number for entry level but high quality western freelancers
This seems unbelievably high to me. For reference, I'm making $9 an hour at my shitty cashier job and I learned (/am learning) to code in the evenings. I can indeed churn out some mobile apps as I said above, but I'm still a beginner, and I assume any employer would want to train me up for at least a while before letting me loose on their projects.

Can I really charge $40? That just seems unrealistic to me. I'd honestly be satisfied with $9 at this point, as long as I was given the opportunity to complete the project and to put the bullet point on my resume.
>I wouldn't go below that because it can look desperate
The only problem is that I AM desperate. I want to avoid scaring people away with my blank resume, too. Do you still recommend sticking with $40 given those details?

>that's the key, not the actual projects (if any) that you list/describe
Really? I'm not saying you're wrong, but that's honestly shocking to me.

>>62431232
>>read malloc as mahl-lock
Wait
not everyone does this?

>>62431293
I pronounce the o as a schwa.

>>62431293
s-stop it or i'm gonna gooey all over your jiff!

>>62431293
I think the normal is em-al-awk'

>>62431293
its short for m-allocate

>>62431342
*memory allocate

>>62430698
Sorry for the slow response, but no, I don't want to use the OS' rendering. I was probably too vague by saying "software". What I mean is that I want all of the layout and rendering to take place within my application, using code that will produce the same output regardless of which platform I run it on. So no calls to DirectWrite or Core Text or whatever.

>>62431289
#1 rule: don't appear desperate
>Do you still recommend sticking with $40 given those details?
yes, don't go below $40
you can't charge $9 because now you're going to be in the same bracket (in their mind) as a russian, and you don't want clients looking for russians
you want clients looking for high quality americans, europeans, australians, etc

>and I assume any employer would want to train me up for at least a while
real employers would do that yes
but not freelance clients
you're the boss when freelancing, nobody trains you

>Really? I'm not saying you're wrong, but that's honestly shocking to me.
again, they're hiring you because you're supposed to be a professional
they wont understand what goes into making any particular program in your resume anyway, so they look at how you write and present yourself
combined with the customized response to their project, you're convinced them that you're the guy who can solve their problem

>>62431149
The only thing /r/programming is good for is for the links (naturally since that's what reddit was built for), but even that can be questionable.

>>62431315
G-u-i, not the letters but the actual sounds

>>62431397
>>62431402
I understand where you're coming from, although, as a minimum wage pleb, I really can't wrap my head around charging that much given my skill level. Won't they be using software people to verify that my work is complete and up to par? Do I need to wait until I'd actually earn that much as a junior dev on the job, or are these people seeking freelancers really so indiscriminate that they'll pay a novice $40 an hour?

Also, this person seems to make a pretty good point —https://www.reddit.com/r/iOSProgramming/comments/52qlex/how_do_you_earn_a_living_as_a_developer/d7mfy7d/

What he says seems to imply that I have essentially no chance of breaking into the industry using Upwork. Is that wrong? If so, why?

Thanks a ton for your insight

>>62431289
$9/hr freelance is not the same thing as a $9/hr employee. Employees have all kinds of rights and other associated costs. With a freelancer, that hourly figure is the sole cost.

File: tiresome.jpg (49KB, 1366x768px) Image search: [Google]

49KB, 1366x768px

>>62431480
I understand, my point was just that I'd personally be happy with $9—I'm not going to ask for $9 on the site as that would indeed force me to compete with the Indians and Russians. But are you sure $20 isn't a more reasonable rate? I just want to get some bites and actual opportunities and $40 seems so god damn lofty.

Is there harm in trying both?
sorry for hammering you (guys) with potentially redundant questions, I just have no frame of reference and am looking to figure out as much as I can

Should I avoid spoon feeding new devs?

>>62427724
>Visual Studio etc are written in C++
Visual Studio is a WPF application. I would imagine most of the program is written in C#, with some C++ libraries.

>>62431480
This. They don't need to pay any payroll tax either. $40 is what holding an interview costs them-if you fuck up they can just fire you no consequences.

>>62431526
teach them in a way that forces them to learn for themselves, but don't be a dick about it. Set them up so they learn

>>62431452
Listen, bud, I'll give you a piece of advice: bullshit till you make it, learn on the job so that you don't have to bullshit as much, and then bullshit some more. Programming is only a hobby for me; I'm an apprentice carpenter by trade. I used to work as a burgerfag making even less money than you are right now, but I moved up to a career in a respectable field by bullshitting: making a really nice resume, make reasonable exaggerations about your skills, be very confident, steer the conversation towards something more desirable if you think it'll reveal you, etc. This sounds dirty, but it works. Drop you humility and humble ways to get paid.

>>62431452
>Won't they be using software people to verify that my work is complete and up to par?
no, you're that software person
if your shit doesn't work when you say it should, that's when they'll hire someone else to look at it

>Do I need to wait until I'd actually earn that much as a junior dev on the job
no, the point of this is that it's a lot easier to start doing than getting a real job
you can start right now and land a client in 30 minutes theoretically
I had my first client in under 2 hours, including signing up and writing a basic profile (ymmv)

I read the post, the guy has some points and I agree that getting a regular salaried position is easier long term
but don't overanalyze it like that guy man, you haven't even started yet
you'll learn a fuckton doing freelance because you'll be forced to solve all these problems on your own
you'll become a way stronger programmer for it, much stronger than your peers when you do get a regular job

>>62431548
even if they never listen?
I had a guy literally tell me I was wrong after showing him how to do something he couldnt

Oh and consider reducing your fapping habits; it did wonders for my ambition and motivation.

>>62431596
Try to see it from his perspective, if he's still being a cunt then just stand your ground but try to remain neutral. Eventually he'll get fired for his bullshit anyway (or you fire him if that's your job)

Anyone have any suggestions on what I should learn next? I already know Python. I'm guessing Java should be next?

New thread:

>>62431668

How good am I if I have no problems solving everything in codingbat. Am I for a computer science degree?

>>62431583
From that post, I'm mainly concerned with the bit about assets. Yeah, I can whip up some code, but I absolutely cannot do anything more than the most basic MSPaint stuff.

>you can start right now and land a client in 30 minutes theoretically
>I had my first client in under 2 hours, including signing up and writing a basic profile (ymmv)
So I have my 3-4 presentable iOS projects, my McJob, a dress shirt, and nothing else. What do I do—take a mugshot, write that I'm a miserable faggot with no real experience and then hope for the best?

Joking aside, can you give me any tips on spinning my very modest resume into something hirable there?

Anyway, thanks for all of this info and the encouragement, I really appreciate it.

>>62431663
sure, if you wanna be a codemonkey

>>62431511
$40/hour really is not much to a business that is looking to get some software done
if they had to employ a programmer it would cost them $60,000/year bare minimum, $100k+ in a big city
because they can't hire an entry level guy, they'd have to hire a guy who can do the entire task, whatever it is
plus the cost of insurance, vacation time, and all sorts of additional expenses

$40/hour for a week or a month is literal peanuts to them
that is the client you're looking for

>>62431729
Damn, it just dawned on me that this makes complete sense.

>>62431700
>Experience writing mobile apps
>Proficient in <languages>
>Experience with <libraries>
>App design skills
>Link to github

>>62431700
>but I absolutely cannot do anything more than the most basic MSPaint stuff.
simple, don't apply to jobs that require assets
I don't do that either
might be easier for me though because I don't do front end apps

write 3-4 short paragraphs about how great you are
>My name is x, I'm a professional software developer and develop for Windows, Linux, Mac, and mobile devices. My specialty is providing high performance applications even on low-end systems. Blah blah blah

that's all you need
at the bottom there's usually a place to describe past projects
just put two or three and make them sound amazing, they don't really matter
make them up if you absolutely have to

>>62431786
>education
>high school

>job experience
>Burger Kangz

Will this hurt me much?

>>62431811
those are negative
just don't put negative shit on the resume
if it's not there, it isn't real
basic resume writing techniques bruh

>>62431830
I know that, mang, but Upwork displays them and there's no option to hide them

>>62431811
>>62431830
>>62431836
also even on a traditional resume, can I really just leave off education and job experience? lmao

seems like an insta-binnable offense

>>62431847
>>62431836
there's no rule that says you have to say you worked at burger king
just say you've been a freelance programmer for x years

education, it's up to you
I worked for this one client I found on elance for a couple of years before he casually asked me
>Hey, you have a degree in something right?
even though I had put CS bachelors in the profile

>>62431898
>just say you've been a freelance programmer for x years
you're suggesting I should outright lie on my upwork profile and say that I've been doing this for years when in reality I'm just starting out? This seems like something that will definitely bite me in the ass

>>62431926
it's not really a lie, you have been casually programming for x years, right?
it's more like a white lie

>>62431947
>it's not really a lie, you have been casually programming for x years, right?
I've been learning in my free time after my McJob between manchild gaming and masturbation sessions, if I were to chunk all of my productivity into one space at a standard full time rate (40 hours/week) it's probably two solid months worth of actual experience. So, yes, I guess I've been at it for years, but I sure as shit don't have years of experience.

Should I just go for it and lie to whatever extent I can muster in your opinion?
>white lie
heh

>>62431986
>Should I just go for it and lie to whatever extent I can muster in your opinion?
yes
white lies are ok
the only issue would be saying you can do things you actually wont be able to deliver on, and then taking jobs that require you to deliver on them
that's what the indians and russians do, and it's exactly the reason you're being hired instead of them

keep in mind, there are tons of programmers out there who have spent the last 5 years of their life going solo and trying to make it by creating their own apps or games
they fail, then go back into the workforce with no relevant recent work experience besides
>dicked around programming for a while
it's normal

>>62432059
you're probably the single most helpful person I've run into when asking questions like this, thanks a ton

>>62432059
>>62432118
btw, how long have you been making your living like this? Is it something you jumped into right out of school (CS?) or did it take a while to build up momentum/clients?

>>62432135
>btw, how long have you been making your living like this?
a few years
I've been programming since I was 13 though
I was just too lazy to start working until after college because I didn't have to

I've had steady work since the first day I started freelancing
although that's mostly luck, because my very first client turned out to be a long-term client that I still do work for
you really just need to stay at it until you land one good client or a few decent repeat clients, and then you're set

File: sadness covers me like a blanket tuck me in let me die.jpg (73KB, 495x636px) Image search: [Google]

73KB, 495x636px

>>62432211
>after college
I wish I'd gone the normal route and just finished school. I had a pretty mediocre background and I was also a lazy piece of shit, so this is where I am now.

I hope even half of what you've said applies to me. It's going to blow my mind if/when anyone wants to hire me on at all, much less for $40 an hour.

>>62432059
Would it be profitable to outsource easier tasks to pajeet/ivan/liu, and if they don't fuck it up send it on to the client? If you write a detailed spec, how bad can it get?

>>62432211
Also, if I can continue to bombard you with questions, how do you have a life as a freelancer? I'm already so much of a shut-in, I know it'll get worse.

>>62432295
this seems like a disaster waiting to happen

>>62432320
Well, worst case scenario is you lose $20, salvage what you can, and move on to the next one. If you find some reliable coders you should be good, the reward from taking their code, making minor fixes and passing it on in $/h is tremendous if you get it right. You can always give up, $100 is no life-ending sum.

>>62432346
Well, I don't know anything, I'm the guy who's been asking all of the questions. But it just seems like more trouble than it's worth. Have you seen what Indians write? Most of them straight up copy-paste from stackoverflow and change whatever they need to until it barely works and then that's it. I can't imagine them doing much more for $2 an hour, either.