>optical disks literally degrade after 10 years WHAT THE

>>60318028
the cloud you dingus

>>60318028
T A P E

>>60318028
Not degrade just died and unreadable that's all. I have mine a lot of it mainly on DVD they just died just like that.

Is this really true? I definitely have some CDs older than that. Then again, I haven't used them in a while

>>60318028
Do you truly miss those files that you can't access anymore? Were they really worth backing up in the first place?

Pressed optical discs can last indefinitely its only the ones that you "burn" that degrade over time, or rather the dyes they use degrade when exposed to UV radiation.

Magnetic tapes are the most popular format for high end archiving. They're cheap and pretty fast in sequence so they're good for storing a ton of data at once. You'll have to read back all of the data in sequence though or it will be horribly slow.

Hard disks are a good solution for low end archiving nice and reliable decent read/write speeds and can be left unplugged for decades.

Floppy disks kinda suck in general and shouldn't be used but in theory they're about as reliable as tapes or hard disks.

Flash memory is unreliable for long term offline storage because the individual cells have to be powered up and refreshed periodically or they'll lose data bit by bit.

Mask ROMs last indefinitely but they're strictly a one time thing and prohibitively expensive for a lot of data.

>>60318028
that's why you use lossless file formats

>not etching a gold platter and keeping it in xeon
Most storage mediums are volatile yah poop

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>>60318028
a.) pay more money for the fancier archival-grade discs. You shouldn't be surprised if you get chink shit stuff and it craps out after a decade.
b.) use dvdisaster when you burn discs so that you can recover the data even if the disc degrades.
c.) a backup that you don't test regularly isn't really a backup.

>>60318028
Hard drives don't. It would probably be cheaper to buy another one instead of all those CDs.

>>60318028
Strictly a cd/dvd rw problem, pressed and -r disks definitely last longer than that.

>>60318028
What about Blu Ray discs don't they last like 25 years?

>>60318455
>What about Blu Ray discs don't they last like 25 years?
That's not really all that long. 25 years ago is 1992. I have photos from then that I want to keep. Movies, too.

>>60318139
>Flash memory is unreliable for long term offline storage

Really? What about CF cards?

>>60319347
Well it looks like I might just have to rip all the files from them and then have them backed up. I saw some dude get his whole pc stolen and it makes me feel like shit knowing I should have stuff backed up via the cloud as well.

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>>60319347
>25 years ago is 1992.

>>60319378
that's flash memory. it's literally in the name.

>>60319528
Yes I know but its high end flash memory. Its used in professional cameras for example. I thought maybe it would be extra more reliable

>>60318028
RAID

>>60319378
Pretty much all flash memory will eventually lose its charge. Higher end flash memory will last longer but it will eventually need to be refreshed or it will begin to lose data.

>>60319565
Look up some datasheets for high-end CF cards and SSDs (and other flash memory). You should be able to find an estimate figure for offline data retention. Last I checked that was about 10 years for SLC flash.

>>60318028
Depends on the storage conditions, and the quality of the blank. Under imperfect, but not bad, storage conditions and mid range brand name blanks, I've had burns that are fine literally twenty years later. I've also had cheap media that failed under identical conditions in less than a year.

For long term storage, buy archival grade media. Yes, it costs more. No, cost is not an indicator of quality.

Also, this
>>60318075

>>60319480
Still, 8 years before she was born.

>>60320068
too bad nobody makes SLC flash anymore

I guess my PS2 games are now unplayable.

>>60318028
should bought M-DISC™℠®©

>>60320937
Just gonna say this.
Also, cold storage HDDs with btrfs or XFS are also good

>>60320907
Just burned disks, nibba

>>60318028
In my experience they get IO read errors within 5 years.

Burned literally hundreds of movies and games before I found this out.

I threw them all away rather than go through them to see which were still good. Optical media is a fucking joke and I feel sorry for anyone that buys into BlueRay burners.

>>60318139
Dude they die when you expose them to normal humidity, I kept mine in binders and maybe 1 in 4 discs had unrecoverable read errors.

It was faster to just download the shit again rather than fuck around with cds.

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And that's exactly why everyone with half a brain knows they MUST use lossless file formats when storing data for a long time.

A very simple example of such degradation can be seen in MP3 files stored over a long period of time.
FLAC uses lossless compression, while MP3 is 'lossy'. What this means is that for each year the MP3 sits on your hard drive, it will lose roughly 12kbps, assuming you have SATA - it's about 15kbps on IDE, but only 7kbps on SCSI, due to rotational velocidensity. You don't want to know how much worse it is on CD-ROM or other optical media. Seriously, just stop saving your shit in lossy formats, otherwise you'll be in for a world of pain.

>>60320907
They're good for now but in another 10 years? Forget it.

Just stop accumulating plastic now.

Most of the burned discs I have are still good, even the ones from the late 90s, but there was one batch of like 50 DVD-Rs that I used for most of my backups from 2006-2007 and all of those are worthless now.

>>60318028
Archiving is not an operation. It is a process. It will cost money and resources, such as time. How valuable is your data? How much effort are you planning to use?

Keyword is redundancy. Either make redundant copies or use other data recovery strategies. Avoid any single point of failures. Getting your data archived on multiple tapes won't help after a decade, when your tape drive dies. Your RAID won't help you when the controller dies and writes random patterns over your disks (actually happened to me once). Multiple systems, not all spinning at all times, is what I use now. Don't forget that multiple locations are needed as well. Also, verify, constantly. Redundancy won't help, when the 5th of 5 copies dies.

You might be interested in Google File System, or Backblaze (their blog is a good source of insight).

Luckily, time is actually on your side. Technology advances. The data I have archived from 1980's has either migrated onto modern platforms or has been lost. But as that data once took a large box full of clunky hardware, it now effortlessly fits on one HD, plus redundancy features, of course.

>>60318028
only if you expose them to sunlight or touch them with your greasy ass fingers

>Is it live, or is it Memorex?
Turns out it was Memorex.

>>60318139
>Pressed optical discs can last indefinitely its only the ones that you "burn" that degrade
What do you mean by pressed? I was under the assumption that no type of CDs avoided degradation entirely, but that the ones you bought with content already on them were just burnt with much nicer/more powerful burners, but how does pressing a CD work?

>>60322924
>What do you mean by pressed?
For a pressed CD the data is physically embedded in the clear plastic, for a burned CD the data is just colored ink

>>60322978
>colored ink

holy fuck damn i'm retarded. this entire time i thought CD writing was etching microscopic holes into the foil layer of the CD

>>60321438
What should I do? Convert all of my MP3 files into FLACs? Is there a way to mass convert my files or would I have to do this one by one?

So a hard disk with my precious, totally paid for music would degrade over a few years if left alone?

>>60323099
I am willing to claim that actual data degradation on a magnetic HD surface is pretty rare.

Instead, I can confirm heads crashing and spindles jamming being a major source for data loss, before erroneous data writes.

Classical bit-rot data degradation without a head crash is yet to be perceived, an I have got "a few" disks. If the data lands on a disk, checksumming correctly forever, until mechanical parts wear out. is the expected outcome.

Your data will not degrade. One day it will just turn out to be unavailable.

>optical disks as backup
At least use dvd-ram you dumbfuck.

I just duplicate the shit out of anything I want to keep, which is almost nothing except photographs. Copies on my laptop and desktop, a couple of physical medium, and a couple of compressed and encrypted archives in "the cloud". Various "clouds", actually.

>>60323067
That is bait, retard

>>60324693
You're responding to bait, retard.

And I'm probably being baited too, fuck.

>>60321438
>rotational velocidensity

It's been years since I last heard that one.

>>60324693
You mean a funny pasta. Holy shit, even most harmless jokes are now "bait" for you people.

>>60318075
This, it's what CERN uses

9 years and 355 days: Disk is completely find
10 years: Disk is degraded

Explain this, atheists.

>>60322924
>Turns out it was Memorex.
kek

>>60318028
>using CD as back up
>idiot
cloud or HDD's hidden in your wardrobe

>>60318075
http://spectrum.ieee.org/computing/it/the-lost-picture-show-hollywood-archivists-cant-outpace-obsolescence

TL;DR shit backward compatibility.

Serious question: Has anyone ever tried storing digital data on microform/ultrafiche?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microform#Ultrafiche

Wiki doesn't help much.

http://rosettaproject.org/blog/02008/aug/20/very-long-term-backup/

Etch your porn stash into a nickel disk.

>>60318028
I have a DragonForce CD from 2003 and it still plays music just fine.
WTF?

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>>60326940
Yeah, man. It's all fine. Nothing to worry about.

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>>60323808
This tbqh.

Every single one of my HDDs and USB sticks has a copy of "Songs.rar" on it, which is everything I produced during my demoscene time.

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>>60326591
Planned obsolescence.

>>60318028
M - d i s c

>>60318028
you need a 5D disc

>>60321438
> tfw this is a joke
> tfw ZFS and FreeNAS zealots eat this shit up

LIKE POTTERY

>>60327037
But does the .rar have recovery added to it?!

>itt
>people not knowing about rotational velocidensity

Bunch of retards

How long would a powered off HDD last, compared to a Dvd?

>>60326875
>digital data on microform/ultrafiche

Since the 50's at least. One such system was FOSDIC, used by the Census Bureau.

https://www.census.gov/history/www/innovations/technology/fosdic.html

But what follows, is an interesting read:

http://www.atlasofdigitaldamages.info/v1/stories/census-bureau-us/

Although the archival time scales are relatively long compared to purely digital media, data density tends to remain inadequate for modern use.

>>60328149
Quite a bit longer, although similar to flash memory, which loses its charge after not getting powered for some time, the magnetic field of powered-off hard drives slowly breaks down. The mechanical parts may fail even earlier when not regularly powered on.
https://superuser.com/a/312764

In every way non-archive grade burned optical discs are the worst backup medium, as they are prone to humidity, heat and sunlight.

>>60328149
Both will fail, possibly earlier than you thought. Plan for that.

I still rip audio CDs to flac on daily basis because my local library has tons of them to listen to. Even early 90s discs are fine unless heavily scratched.

>>60318028
>optical discs
Blu Rays last longer than HDDs

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Fuck! Almost all of my old discs are fucked up...

>>60318133
Only for burned CDs. The ones written at the factory use a different medium that doesn't degrade.

>>60326940
>>60329036
Mass-produced discs are good because they're pressed, it's the burned ones that aren't.

>>60318028
use low burn speed fagit

>>60323010
It is if you burn it.

>>60322978
>for a burned CD the data is just colored ink
damn I almost forgot it's time to refill my optical drive ink cartridge!

>not using expensive purple japanese dyes
pleb

>>60329856
It's in the disc, not the drive

>>60329666
Can confirm this helps. Takes fucking ages, though. I just burn stuff when I know that I'll not be using my computer for a while anyway because I'm paranoid about the discs getting fucked when I do something while burning.
This actually happened a lot back in the days because the buffer would run out if you did something else while burning discs.

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>>60329884

think of all the older pc games and programs still on disk that aren't sold new anymore
someone should archive that stuff

>>60331226
shouldnt be a problem yet. I still have my Doom 2 cd-rom that's outlived most of my own burned cds that were made a decade after it.

>>60322853
I can only speak from the perspective of archiving anime, comics, movies, music and some other misc files.

back when cds were a thing, I could get 3-5 episodes on a disc, burn it off and move on. so archiving was simple, write name on disc, move on to next disc.

dvds allowed full seasons much of the time, so it was largely the same,

bluray on the other hand, depending on quality i could fit multiple seasons, multiple shows, large chunks of files on this shit.

Now, what I use to use for smaller files was an archive helper, it would remember where files are on what discs, granted you would want to keep shit as bunched up as you could so you don't need to use many discs to see all of one show if disc size could prevent it, but this made storing music painless

off the top of my head I cant think of any anymore, if anyone knows of one that would be a great help.

I also suggest multiple drives, that way you can painlessly create a backup of the backup without needing to copy it first.

Any more though, I had a 1.5tb drive that I used all the space on, and by the time I moved to 4tb, I almost had no way to use all the space before moving to an 8tb drive, could have likely used a 6tb, but burning off the bigger files onto discs and purging shit that was redundant went a long way to keeping that drive functional.

Personally now I would recommend just buying a new bigger hdd then moving files to discs, but I like having them on discs as a disc failure looses me far less data then a hdd failure.

>>60327056
Holy shit, finally.

(also DVDisaster)

>>60318159
>xeon

>>60332732
What?

>>60332742
>>60332742
>xeon
>Intel xeon

>>60329621
Oh man, I buy music from artists who publish their works themselves and sell them at events. Don't know exactly what methods some of them use but some definitely just burn the discs at home. Are those gonna be gone in ~10 years?

>>60332825
Depends on the make of the cd.
Taiyo yuden and mitsubishi chem. Are very good

Cmc and moser baer are trash

>>60332996
I'll have to check my discs out sometime soon then. Thanks man.

>>60318139
>Pressed disks
Ther can last lots of time but AFAIK they also have a limited time, but we are talking about 70-100 years or more. I have to review those numbers.
>magnetic tapes
Unfortunately some are goddamn expensive, but they offer a nice alternative
>HDD's
>Unplugged for decades.
nononononono. There are degradation on the magnetic surface over time, but what we really need to care about are the motors. Every seasoned IT staff had problems with disks left unplugged for a long time.
Maybe enterprose grade disks allow that kind of treatment, but consumer grade disks (unless its HGST) are not so reliable anymore.

If there is some /g/ent out there interested, read this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Data_degradation
or commonly known as "bit rot"
>>60321306
>It was faster to just download the shit again rather than fuck around with cds.
As long as it is available, but this is the main point against the cloud or using someone else's service to store your stuff, you lose a lot of control over your data.
>>60320907
No mane, Original console disks are the so.called pressed disks, If mind serves me well, they make a metal matrix with the actual data grooves in it, then they press that matriz against a plastic disk with a metal covering, so the data is literally pressed into the metal covering. This makes those disks really sturdy.

>>60323639
Optical backups have their advantages, I made them for a client, they got flooded hard due to weather conditions and shitty city infrastructure, and guess what survived? Those darn "who the fuck needs these anymore" disks.

>>60326591
The disk substrate. Not all disks are made equal, there are shitty media and good quality media e.g. Taiyo Yuden and sony make pretty darn good DVD media

Also your burner quality, You have to use Plextor or Pioneer at least. Never use samsing or LG or HP burners.

Burning crappy media on crappy burners at maximum velocity without verification is what makes shitty bit rotten disks

>>60332825
Better check, or reburn on high quality CD's Also use a good brand burner, and burn using half the maximum speed announced on the disk.

e.g. If the disk says it supports 40x use 20x at most.
Enable verification of the burn process.
>but how do I know who made the substrate if my disk?
There is a programm called (i member) DVDInfo, it cn check the manufacturer of the substrate as any disks have a code indicating the said manufacturer.
There is also a list of media quality:
http://www.digitalfaq.com/reviews/dvd-media.htm
>>60332996
Yes, this man gets it

>>60334284
That's a great idea. I was already thinking about reburning them but this settles it. Are there any burners you would recommend? And thank you for the media quality link too.

>>60318028
iCloud

>>60334284
Burners
As I said on: >>60334021, Plextor of pioneer are the best, but Thats what i get from my backwater country, There are other very good brands, but plextor is hands down the best, there are some expensive models, but you are buying quality and peace of mind.
Remember no HP branded drives, and if you like to have your taste for adventue there are some models of LG that are not bad,

>>60334708
Thanks a bunch man.

There are Millenium Disks, which claim that their disks hold up to 1000 years, when stored in favorable conditions.
If you use error correcting codes, you could prevent some errors too.

>>60318028
Buy archive grade cds and they last literally 100 yrs

>>60318028
>How am I supposed to store data for decades?
You can't.

>>60318115
I went through my CD and DVD collection and threw it away half a year ago. I could copy files off some CDs burned as early as 1999. Oddly CDs burned 2007-2008 had most failures and the vast majority of DVDs were also unreadable. I think CDs vary with when they were made and by who. Burned DVDs die a lot quicker and brand doesn't seem to matter.

Regardless, if you have CDs or DVDs lying around then recover what you can from them and just throw them away. It's not really efficient anyway.

>>60319569
This, RAID is the solution to long-term storage. No, you can't store anything on harddrives for 30 years but it's the best solution. You will have to get a new RAID array/system every so often and copy things over but that's really the best option for mass storage.

RAID arrays swapped out every five or perhaps ten years is one good option. The other really good for long-term storage is paper, a book will outlast almost all other storage solutions.

If you're using spinning disk, you need to have something constantly validating. Literally, some systems constantly rewrite blocks, and validate them.

>>60318028
Use Blu Rays, they do not use organic materials and such degrade not like CDs, DVDs or HD-DVDs.

>>60321306
You know UV rays pass through shit, like cosmic radiation and so on.
Lamps and other devices create UV rays.

>>60332700
>(also DVDisaster)

echo 'source path:'
read p
echo 'image name (no extension):'
read n
genisoimage -D -o $n.iso -udf -relaxed-filenames -iso-level 4 -V $n $p
dvdisaster -i $n.iso -mRS02 -c
growisofs -Z /media/cdrom=$n.iso

M-disc.