How autistic does one need to be as to enforce one's obsession

>>60120163
>i'm an undergrad comp sci student who thinks he knows something: the post

>>60120163
The indentation becomes a non-issue when you use it frequently.

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>TFW the white man is oppressing pajeets with proper code indentation

>>60120163
>How autistic does one need to be as to enforce one's obsession with code indentation in a programming language?
Not at all. It's by far the least bad aspect of Python and it's by far not the worst way to implement indentation based syntax.

>>60120172
FP
BP

>>60120163
?HowAutisticDoesOneNeedToBeAsToUseSpacesAndPunctuationProperlyToCommunicateToOthers

>>60120163
How autistic does one need to be to feel oppressed by a programming language enforcing indentation?

>>60120163
>not being able to figure out where a set of code ends and begins
Care to elaborate? I didn't use python much, but when I did, I had no issues reading/writing code whatsoever.

>>60122806
Python code is some of the most readable code out there.

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>>60120184
>copy code
>paste back in
>nothing werks
Fuck Python.

>>60120279
>implying pajeets don't use python
If you want to minimize poo exposure choose C or C++.

>>60122912
>see pic

>>60122779

How
    Autistic
        Does
            One
                Need
                    To
                        Be
                            As
                                To
                                    Use
                                        Spaces
                                            And
                                                Punctuation
                                                    Properly
                                                        To
                                                            Communicate
                                                                With
                                                                    Others

>>60123146
I always see some people complaining about pasting python, and yet I never had any issues with that myself. It's a mystery.

>>60120163
It's bloated as fuck. 500 thousand lines of Python interpreter does the same thing twice as slow as 10 thousand lines of Lua interpreter.

>>60123291
Well not really, but you are right if you meant to say that CPython is a meh-tier interpreter if there ever is one; right after most scheme meme interpreters.

>>60123146
> Copy-pasting code
You sir, are in no position to belittle programming languages as long as you are not capable to write independent code

>>60123306
AFAIK CPython is the most widespread one.

>>60120163
Python is A E S T H E T I C. I'm glad they enforce indents. It really cuts down on time when reading someone else's code.

>>60123337
This.

>>60123337
Some ideas for even better programming lanugage:

> remove colons, they're unnecessary
> enforce naming convention (all types must be PascalCase, all variables and functions must be camelCase, all constants must be ALL_CAPS
> enforce proper formatting (if it doesn't conform to PEP-8 don't interpret it)
> enforce documentation (if every function, every argument of function and so on isn't documented, don't interpret it)

>>60123432
also
> prohibit semicolons, every statement has it's own line
> prohibit statement on the same line as : enforce consistent indentation style

>>60123324
Pretty sure V8 is more widespread. Along with a lot of other stuff.

As for Python interpreters: Of course it is, there actually is no choice.
There is:
- CPython, while technically better to be buried, the only complete implementation
- PyPy, rocket science by a lot of good people and still fails to deliver, thanks to CPython (friendly reminder: a programming language is NEVER independent of it's implementation)
- micropython, a fucking mess, following CPythons footsteps, but for microcontrollers, apparently developed by similar clueless devs
- lot of derprecated legacy garbage like Jython or IronPython
- Cython and Nuitka, to get decent performance you have to deviate from Python semantics, even more so than with PyPy

>>60123432
That's nice and all but how about static typing first. That's the most crucial thing I miss from Python.

>>60123432
also
> static, most of the time inferred typing
> static types, getting rid of metaclasses
> no self garbage
> state of the art tracing gc instead of rc + gc at end of execution
> fast binary compiler based interpreter

>>60123432
>>60123438
>>60123459
/g/ Writes a programming language

>>60123146
>Copy and paste code
>Nothing works
Is it hard being retarded?

>>60123468
That almost exist under the name Nim.
Too bad it suffers from its own share of obvious flaws.

>>60123432
You're being hysterical/retarded.

>>60123455
There's optional typing available.

>>60123146
There's plugins available that will fix that shit if you really have trouble with pasting Python code.

>>60123514
>There's optional typing available.
The useless kind, to be precise.

>>60123506
>Nim
Nim is an existing language though?
https://nim-lang.org/

>>60123535
By "almost" I meant it is not quite an improved Python but its own language.

>>60123514
I was trying to make fun of the language using the slippery slope, but some people took me seriously

>>60123542
Oh I thought you meant /g/ almost made their own language.

>>60123556
Well, there were some attempts. Their logos were finished, so I'd call them successful by /g/ standards.

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Fuck Python and pyfag shills and their pleb scripting language.

C++ is bae code for patrician coders.

>>60123186
new to /g/
how was this done?

>>60124526
with code bb-code tags

>>60124553


can you give an example?

>>60124585

Your code here.

Let's hope that works.

>>60124612
Nope, it ate nested bbcode.
Basically you write

 and an ending tag with a /.

>>60124624
Actually, it seems you don't need to close those.
Well, I'm in no mood for finding out the fitting escape sequence, so basically you put brackets around "code".

>>60123432
>> enforce documentation (if every function, every argument of function and so on isn't documented, don't interpret it)

/* adds the value specified by parameter "amount"
 * returns the 
 */
int8_t add(
  // the value to add
  int8_t * amount
  ) {
  // TODO check for overflow
  // increase the stored value by the specified amount
  dataDelegate->amount += &amount;
  return 0; // indicates success
}

>>60124634


you know, screenshots are a thing


(testing)

>>60124771

(╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻

>>60124771
Yeah, but that requires efforts I'm not willing to take.
Come to think of it, also typi

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>>60124784

[reeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee]

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>>60124792

fine, whatever

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>>60124853


I'm thankful and yet I still hate you so..

thanks, I guess.

>>60124867
>I'm thankful and yet I still hate you so..
That's the /g/ magic.

When you have a function or some block of code spaning two heights of your screen for example, how does that work in python? Is it impossible to track everything down when there are no brackets to signal you where is what?

>>60124874

thanks based jerk senpai <3

>>60120163
Chill out, it's just a toy language for first year students, like visual basic with training wheels. You can forget about it after that.

>>60124853
▲

 penis 

>>60125140
It managed to dethrone Perl though.

I don't know what I hate more about python.
The underscores, the unicode crap, the module system, the forced indention or the way classes work.

How people choose this as their favorite language is beyond me. I'd gladly take a job programming in an old PHP version over python.

>>60125250
>it managed to dethrone a toy language for admins that only looks the way it looks because larry is edgy as fuck with his bibles in his pants
That's not untrue, but I'm insecure if this is a good measure.

Python is shit, but not for the reasons you think.

>>60123186
Well played.

someFunction(self)

>>60123215
Actually that is one true point, you need to re-indent your code when you paste something in. It only takes a few seconds for a few lines and it really isn't a big deal. I quite like the neat indentation but it could be a bit of a pain to some.

You should indentate anyways so might as well enforce it.

However copy pasting can result in some errors if you don't pay attention

>hey looks guys we made a language in which OOP is very important
>len(mystring)
What did they mean by this?

>>60123432
This is almost literally Ruby. Especially the Rails framework which enforces class file names like java

>>60125445
All the OO features of python feel like a tacked-on afterthought.

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294KB, 473x305px

>>60123432
>PascalCase
>camelCase
holy shit fuck off

colons are trash though, continuation characters like \ or & should be the standard, an otherwise newline terminated line should always be considered terminated

>>60125931
This.

>>60125931
This. Ruby is just as fast (or slow) as Python but at least it doesn't half ass OO and the syntax is just much nicer. Also because it doesn't force indentation it can do some aesthetic shit like "x = y if condition". And I like the inverse control flow things like "unless" and "until" in addition to just if and while. Also blocks are great and Ruby had symbols.

It's just too bad everyone makes Python libraries except in web dev

>>60125960
>continuation characters like \ or & should be the standard, an otherwise newline terminated line should always be considered terminated
This

>>60120163
I like it because it's something fresh - something different from C family languages.

>There should be one-- and preferably only one --obvious way to do it.

class Foo(object):
  ...
  def bar(self):
    ...

f = Foo()

f.bar()
Foo.bar(f)
getattr(Foo, "bar")(f)
Foo.__getattribute__("bar", f)()
Foo.__dict__["bar"](f)
Foo.__dict__["bar"].__call__(f)

>>60120163

NEWSFLASH !!!

This is just in:
Some people like syntactically significant whitespace, others don't.

I REAPEAT:
Some people like it, others don't!

We can not be sure what this all means yet, stay tuned. We'll inform you when we understandthe further implications of this SHOCKING new turn of events..

>>60120163
>not being able to figure out where a set of code ends and begins?
Whether you like the forced indentation or not, it's difficult to argue that it doesn't make it obvious where blocks start and end.

Also, even though I'm really not a fan of the forced indentation, I do like the part of it that enables me to not waste lines on end-braces.

>>60123146
>copypasting code
Let's just imagine that you're not just pastashitting all over your code as is rather talking about moving code around. Then it is true that you may need to reindent the code at the target location.

However, do you not do this for other languages? Do you just leave it at a non-matching indentation? If so, literally kill yourself even more acutely than if you were pastashitting.

>>60126338
>as
and*

>>60123442
>lot of derprecated legacy garbage like Jython
I'm actually using Jython, and it is by no means deprecated. It doesn't have the resources of CPython, but it is in active development, and if you can use it, it's actually surprisingly nice. In particular, you get rid of the GIL.

>>60123442
>friendly reminder: a programming language is NEVER independent of it's implementation
C has a couple of fairly different implementations, for sure.

>>60126420
I only used it during a course I was forced to take on user interfaces to troll the people responsible for assignmnents who demanded we use JavaFX

>>60125445

I'm generally with this guy here:
>>60125983

I also think Ruby is more logical and easier to use.


But recently I've tried to grasp the reasoning behind Python and it's not as bad if you understood the differences.

Ruby is centered about the thought that you always ask objects to do things:

a = Blah.new
a.do_this.do_that.length.to_s  

..and so on.


But Python is centered about functions. It's more inspired by languages like pascal. Everything that can be put in a separate function shall be put in one!

You can even see this in the iterator models:
-Ruby does something like "3.times {}" and then you use each iterating number as the object you want to give orders to.
-Python uses list comprehensions, where you are not interested in the single object that much, but more in the Set.

My feeling is Ruby syntax works more "from inside to outside", cascading the result of an operation to the next outer level.

Python syntax works more "from outside to inside", trying to do wrap things in functions and trying to be as abstract as possible.

Decorators are a good example here: you manipulate things by wrapping stuff around.
In Ruby you would maybe rather accomplish the same thing by defining the decorator INSIDE the object and tell the object to "decorate itself".

Of course you can use the "Ruby way" in Python and vice versa. But that messed up my head and my Python code often felt "wrong".

So today I try to use a different mindset. You know starcraft?
Ruby is the Protoss:
-powerful objects
-simplicity by code encapsulation and clear responsibility

Python is the Zerg:
-a lof of small functions
-simplicity by doing a lot of simple steps

>>60126117
The first to are obvious to someone who knows python (and are 2 different things). The others are hacks intended to do other things.
There should be one obvious way to do one thing, not one way to do many things.

>>60126459
I do not know ruby enough to know whether that analogy makes sense, but I guess I can see python making small functions/codeblocks easy with lambdas, list comprehensions, dicts, and small functions

>>60125275
>talking shit about based larry
hope your mother dies in her sleep tonight

>>60126504

Well, it's just my personal thoughts. Ruby also has a lot of lambdas, but they are kinda "hidden", so you don't realize that you are actually use them. And that's exactly my feeling: In Ruby "functions are merely properties of objects", in Python objects are "merely the storage for functions".

Ahh, it's difficult to describe and might not be 100% accurate. But I realized that Python looks much better for me once and makes more sense when I try to "let Ruby go".

This is hard, because the syntax is so fucking similar sometimes. But if you're looking at it from an aerial view, the way you model things is different. I even started to like Python, even though the "baby duck syndrome" is a thing and I'm always be a Ruby guy..

>>60126420
>I'm actually using Jython, and it is by no means deprecated.
It is, though. They barely made it compatible to 2.7.

>>60126430
And those follow the same range of semantics that C unfortunately allows.

>>60126441
good thinking anon

>>60126504
the functional stuff was tacked on as well, though

>>60126533
>not making fun of a sigil loving shell implementer
hope your sister dies in her sleep tonight

>>60124947

testicles

>>60126582
>It is, though. They barely made it compatible to 2.7.
They did indeed make it compatible with 2.7, though. While it's taking some time, they're still actively working on Python3 support.

>>60120163

If you don't already indent your code consistently, you're writing shit code.
kys OP.

>>60127023
Even though Python's forced indentation matches what one would naturally do the majority of the time, there are times when other indentations fit better, and then Python suddenly starts sucking since it cannot support them.

>>60127109

For example?

>>60127142

    zl = zh = cz[0];
    if(cz[1] < zl) zl = cz[1]; if(cz[1] > zh) zh = cz[1];
    if(cz[2] < zl) zl = cz[2]; if(cz[2] > zh) zh = cz[2];
    if(cz[3] < zl) zl = cz[3]; if(cz[3] > zh) zh = cz[3];
    return(zh - zl);

I know this isn't the best example since Python has n-ary min and max functions, but it's what I had at hand. It's not too difficult to imagine similar constructions that aren't specifically min and max.

>>60126704
>latest release: 2 years ago
>still working on 2.7 bugs
>one branch
>jython3 repository looks deserted, with the most recent update being a single fix after a year long pause

>>60125931
>All the OO features of python feel like a tacked-on afterthought.

>one of the few languages that properly support multiple inheritance with C3 linearization
>afterthought

>>60127227
>jython3 repository looks deserted, with the most recent update being a single fix after a year long pause
https://github.com/jython/jython3/commits/master
Sure it's been half a year since the last update, but they were common up to that point, and half a year isn't that bad. Not sure where you're looking.

>>60123337
It's not aesthetic when it's part of the syntax. Nothing uglier than making invisible characters carry syntactic weight.

>>60127275
>even a clock is right twice a day on matters that shouldn't exist in the first place
>marvel of engineering

They fixed that with a breaking change, btw.

>>60127304
>and half a year isn't that bad
half a year == dead, deadest, dead-o-licious, deadarific, dust-bustin, pushin the daisies, kicking the bucket
[rest_in_piss.apng]

>>60124634
{ int i = 0 }

{bb-code} int i =0 {bb-code}

{code} int i = 0 {code}

>>60125931
How so, really? The only way to think of them as an "afterthought" is that they're not strictly part of the core language, but added on a layer above, but separating concerns like that is a good thing, not a bad thing.

>>60127385

 int i = 0 
 

[bb-code] int i = 0 [bb-code]

>>60127393
>but separating concerns like that is a good thing
not, as that is heading for a C++ route where every feature fights another

>>60127399
[ c o d e ] int i = 0 [ c o d e ]

That's how you do it FYI.

>>60127413
The very problem with C++ is that everything is mixed together at the core level and that concerns aren't separated.

>>60127423
bullshit, the opposite is true
For example RAII types and old C-like constructs like unions are separated and that leads to union unable to contain std::string

>>60126420
How is library support in Jython? Can you use numpy/pandas and the like?

>>60127445
I only very rarely use Python libraries outside the stdlib, so I wouldn't know.

>>60127445
http://jyni.org/

>>60127335
> It's not aesthetic when it's part of the syntax.

I don't see your point. Python is ugly because people are forced to write legible code?

>>60127443
They are separate, but it's not like they're built on different levels of concern, and that's exactly the problem -- RAII types and union types are just jumbled together in the big pot-o-goo that is core C++ and can't live together consistently. If one were built on top of the other, they'd have no choice but to be consistent.

>>60127468
See >>60127109

>>60127345
>matters that shouldn't exist in the first place
>i am too retarded to use a feature properly so i need to use a language that forbids using it

>>60126580
> Well, it's just my personal thoughts. Ruby also has a lot of lambdas, but they are kinda "hidden", so you don't realize that you are actually use them. And that's exactly my feeling: In Ruby "functions are merely properties of objects", in Python objects are "merely the storage for functions".
Correct. Classes are overblown namespaces.

>>60127494
Please provide an example where another indentation scheme would be better.

>>60127487
>If one were built on top of the other, they'd have no choice but to be consistent.
As in Lisp? Then you get the problem that the compiler doesn't actually know one of them and can't optimize it as good.

>>60127516
Follow the reply chain. It's literally right there.

>>60127499
>muh multiple inheritance
Sounds like you're the retard unable to use traits, type classes and whatnot, aka the proper solution to every problem you could tackle with multiple inheritance.

>>60127524
I'm retarded. I don't see it.

>>60127518
Now we're just completely into the land of pure speculation. You don't know what a compiler for such a hypothetical language could or could not optimize. Also, is that the C++er's excuse for the language being an undifferentiated mess of everyone's laundry list? "We need it at the lowest level, or I won't be able to squeeze out that last reg-to-reg mov"?

Also, >implying SBCL's compiler is bad

>>60125931
All of Python feels like a tacked-on afterthought. Hardly surprising when its creator thinks it's a good thing that the compiler/interpreter doesn't know anything about your code.

>>60127423
This is how I know you know almost nothing about C++.

>>60127460
Does it actually werk?

>>60127539

See >>60127109 >>60127142 >>60127152

Literally retarded.

>>60127152
>>60127551
Can you provide a non-retarded example?

>>60127565
Maybe if you make me care enough.

>>60127542
>You don't know what a compiler for such a hypothetical language could or could not optimize.
I can though. The compiler doesn't know it? It's fucked in many cases.

> "We need it at the lowest level, or I won't be able to squeeze out that last reg-to-reg mov"?
Yeah, hate to tell you, but optimizing for memory access is a big deal on x86 these days, unlike say, replacing some arithmetics with slighly faster ones.

>Also, >implying SBCL's compiler is bad
I'm pretty sure, it's pretty good. For a lisp compiler.

>>60127547
I don't know, I'm not a science memer.

Haskell has significant whitespace done right. I'd say Python could learn from Haskell but the truth is I want Python to die as soon as possible.

>>60127551
That's a pretty poor argument to get rid of enforced structure.

>>60127533
Behavior sometimes also requires state.
Everything you mentioned requires you to reimplement that state into every object.

Even a shit language like Go can handle that case afaik.

>>60127670
>Haskell has significant whitespace done right. I
Haskell has the worst. But that is only a small part of a really bad syntax. It's basically like PYthon and Perl got an incest child.

>>60127625
>I can though. The compiler doesn't know it? It's fucked in many cases.
In very many cases when things are lowered and inlined, the necessary information is transformed with it and is just as available anyway. You're still speculating because you can't make any concrete examples, and of course you can't, because there's no concrete language to exemplify from.

>but optimizing for memory access is a big deal
>reg-to-reg

>>60127684
Why?

>>60127690
>Everything you mentioned requires you to reimplement that state into every object.
Every implementation (You) know, maybe. Remember how I mentioned and whatnot.

>>60127747
Well what's the "whatnot" that solves this without copying the code for the state into every implementation?
Here's the simplest use case I could think of:
Assuming your language support some kind of introspection, create an interface/trait/class that has a method that returns a diff of the state of the object since the last call.

>>60127737
Aliasing can't be determined properly. Pretty sure there are enough languages to exemplify from.

>>60127768
symbolic interfaces with variables could easily solve this

>>60120163
If you program in any language (except for python) and don't indent your code.

You should kill yourself, pajeet.

If, however, you do indent your code, then what's the problem?

Python is scripting language, you're not supposed to write large projects with it.

OP is ignorant child who should be banned from /g/.

>>60127806
>interfaces with variables
So just like a normal class?

>>60127825
No, symbolic.
As in, the variable name is only in scope of the interface method.
If you'd ever want it to access from a normal member, you have to do so explicitly.

>>60127778
>Aliasing can't be determined properly.
Since we're already speculating wildly, that sounds precisely like one of those things that would be preserved when lowering. There's no reason that value distinctness/equality wouldn't be preserved.

>>60127862
>If you'd ever want it to access from a normal member, you have to do so explicitly.
So a regular Python class with a variable name prefixed with __, gotcha
(__x would be mangled to _ClassName_x)

Are there any languages that support what you described though?

>>60127892
In fact, that's actually one of the few things that languages other than C/C++ tend to do better at, since they have no partially overlapping memory objects. I'm not implying that doesn't have its own problems, but the point nevertheless stands.

>>60127744

zl = zh = cz[0]
if (cz[1] < zl): zl = cz[1]
if (cz[2] < zl): zl = cz[2]
if (cz[3] < zl): zl = cz[3]
if (cz[1] > zh): zh = cz[1]
if (cz[2] > zh): zh = cz[2]
if (cz[3] > zh): zh = cz[3]
return zh - zl

I'm still not sure of the point you're getting at.

>>60127937
Your example is less regular, since every other line does a different thing. In >>60127152 each line did the exact same unit of work, hence it was more regular.

>>60120163

how much of a faggot do you have to be to judge a language by it's syntax

All I ever see on this board about python is "muh syntax". Do you understand that is the tip of a massive iceberg?

Just because it's not C syntax doesn't mean it's shit. Try learning Haskell or Lisp and getting used to that syntax. Python syntax for a person used to C syntax will take you a couple hours to get used to and then you're good.

>>60127937
>>60127955
>>60127152
I'm not saying that this is in any way good or readable but I wanted to post in nonetheless.

zl = zh = cz[0]
zl, zh = cz[1] if cz[1] < zl else zl, cz[1] if cz[1] > zh else zh
zl, zh = cz[2] if cz[2] < zl else zl, cz[2] if cz[2] > zh else zh
zl, zh = cz[3] if cz[3] < zl else zl, cz[3] if cz[3] > zh else zh
return zh - zl

Honestly I'd prefer writing it like >>60127937 but interleaved. (1, 1, 2, 2, 3, 3)

>>60128003
>how much of a faggot do you have to be to judge a language by it's syntax
The syntax is actually the single biggest thing holding me off from Haskell, because I can't figure out how its stupid "layout" works, and there doesn't seem to be a single description of it that doesn't just say "it does what you want, stupid", even though that's obviously not true.

>>60127904
Something like that. Nope, but since Go gets away without multiple inheritance for your scenario it doesn't matter. The point is, Python is just the niggest here.
>but muh C3 linearization
no

>>60127907
>In fact, that's actually one of the few things that languages other than C/C++ tend to do better at
That is, stricter ones with more rules and extra extra semantics, like Rust (LLVM apparently can't exploit it, yet) or Fortran (fuck knows what gcc does there).

>>60128003
>how much of a faggot do you have to be to judge a language by it's syntax
Ok then, have fun programming in a language where after each statement/expression must appear in mirrored order.

>>60128177
>but since Go gets away without multiple inheritance for your scenario it doesn't matter
Go doesn't even have traditional inheritance, it has embedding.
Anyway you can't implement my scenario in Go because the embedded instance is not aware of the "parent".
The point is, you can't do it without multiple inheritance.

>>60120163
>And how do you Py-fags deal with not being able to figure out where a set of code ends and begins?
Comments you retard

>>60128053

Haskell could not be done with C syntax if they wanted to

writing it is more like writing an equation or regex or bash 1 liner

>>60126338
>However, do you not do this for other languages?

I do, by using the automatic formatting function of the IDE

>I copied code from stack and now can't get it to work

t. Pajeet

>>60127818
Sat that to openstack

>>60128448
So you are into the idea of being forced to do shit only in the way someone else wants you to?

Say for instance if An Hiro forced you to use this website with an Apple device, would that make sense?

Python Rules are retarded and in the end are more annoying to deal with that semicolons and braces.

>>60129534
"forced to properly indent code" has got to be on the bottom of The List of Python Annoyances.

>>60130740
Should we speak about creating retarded syntax structures that exist nowhere else, it being slow as fuck?

>>60131038
Lambda syntax is shit.
Ternary "operator" is shit.
No .? operator
Excessive use of magic in the standard library is shit because jedi can't figure out what the arguments are and you need to open up the documentation.
Queue doesn't support len(), it has its own method.

It's slow but pypy makes it as fast as Java for example and cpyext is now good enough to support numpy, scipy, etc. just fine.

>>60124653
Such readable
Many wow