Is the gap between the 1080 and the 1080ti worth the extra 200

>>60072553
No get a Titan Xp

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>wait for 980ti to drop with 1080 release
>1080 release
>980ti price goes up because it's no longer manufactured and it's faster than 1080

>>60072553
>it's faster than 1080
You what niggeer

>>60072553
Are you playing in 4k and have the extra cash? otherwise no.

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No but the gap between the 1080ti and vega will be and for less money to.

>>60072684
Not in temps and power consumption.

>>60072684
based Pajeets

>>60072620
UHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH what

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>>60072620
Yeah mine is overclocked about as far as it's going to go on a 120mm radiator. In an hour of game play it noticeably heats up my room but it is pretty fucking fast. I think this is roughly the same graphics score a stock 1080 gets.

yes if you're a good goy

>>60072741
I doubt that translates into the same performance in games.

Also when a heavily overclocked water cooled 980 ti doesn't even match a stock blower design 1080 (but comes pretty close, just 700 score less), why would you say it's faster?

>>60072897
I didn't. I replied to the guy who did.

>>60072553
the only case where you would have ever wanted a 1080 is if you want maximum performance regardless of price/performance. this means that nobody should buy a 1080 now; there is a faster card available, and if you think it is too expensive, you should have bought one of the sub $300 cards.

>>60072702
aren't 1080 TI's currently catching on fire and regular 1080s thermal throttling? what are you trying to get at?

>>60072553
hey /g/ im gonna get a gtx 1060
>no wait an extra 200 for a 1070
okay im finally gonna get a 1070 today
>what? just get the 1080 its only 200 more
I can smell the 1080 in my checkout everybody
>the fuck is wrong with you kekkles get a 1080 ti its only 200 more than the last and its future proof
Im getting a 1080TI and you fuckers arent stopping me
>not getting the titan xp zozzle have fun wasting money kike

>>60073027
also pretty shitty how fast these cards fall in value. i'm like 99% sure 1080s will go for $400-420 once vega comes out, probably high 300's used on ebay.

>>60073083
I passed up on a few 1080s for 420 on ebay used like a month ago man.

>>60073083
Once volta drops they'll be 250. Remember that the 1060 is as fast as a 980, at least after driver gimps.

>>60072553
Depends on your monitor, thats all

>>60072702
Aftermarket 1080tis are close to the maximum TDP that can be effectively dissipated within PCIe cooler limitations.
Unless vega has some ridiculous stock cooling configurations it cant be consuming much more power than big Pascal.

>>60072553
if you need to ask here you probably don't need either.
>>>/v/

>>60072702
>nvidiout housefire 1080ti

>>60072702
Spark 'n SmokeTM 1080ti that has tdp out of his ass

>spend $800 on 1080ti
>nvidia releases new cards next year
>the 1170 is better than your 1080ti and only costs $400

JEWED

>>60072702

ive got some bad news for you novideo friend

>>60073595
Apparently the naming scheme they're going with is 20XX like the expositional setting from a 90s scifi game.

>>60073475
how does that help?

fuck off faggot

>>60073114
meanwhile rx 480s trade blows with 980tis when overclocked decently.

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>>60073917
>rx 480s trade blows with 980tis
In what? Power consumption?
It's got the compute performance, sure, but it's going to be a few years before the drivers improve to the point of "trading blows"

>>60074086
He said 480 not 580. The 480 uses less power than the 980 ti.

>>60074459
580 is just an overclocked 480 anyways
what is with this onslaught of rebrands?
this shit is ridiculous.

>>60073595
Well it's actually a good thing in some ways but it is a shame that nvidia cards seem to drop in value so rapidly. Not sure how AMD cards do as I never really shopped for used ones.
But back in the day all technology seemed to advance as fast or faster than GPUs do today. CPUs, storage size, etc has stagnated so they hold their value for much longer but GPUs continue to get better and better because they're easier to develop at this point in time.
If GPUs held their value longer it would be because new GPUs aren't as large of an upgrade.
If I buy a 580 today for $200 it's because I'm okay with getting a 580's level of performance for $200. Just because the 680 is twice as fast for the same amount of money doesn't mean I should be upset.
How do AMD cards hold their value? I imagine a 290x is still a very competent 1080p card and probably worth something, more than the gtx 7 series anyway.

>>60074520
>overclocking uses more power
really gets me thinking..

>>60073445
>Unless vega has some ridiculous stock cooling configurations

It uses HBM2. That alone reduces power consumption a fuck ton, since you don't have 10+ modules of 8 GHz GDDR5 in there.

Remember that Fiji itself was way bigger than Hawaii, and they could still make a 175W variant of it due to it not using GDDR5.

With Vega they are either making a ridiculously complex chip that practically only hits sub-300 TDP due to HBM2, or it won't be *that* complex but will have sub-200 TDP.

It's probably the latter, but they push the clocks to the breaking point so it comes out to ~250W; they did that with Hawaii, they did that with Fiji, they did that with Polaris, and they did it with Ryzen too.

>>60074086
It already had 1 year of driver improvements, and it beats the 1060 completely now, and in few games it comes respectably close to the 1070 (not on par by any definition, but the difference is not that huge).

IIRC the 480 was almost as good as the 980 at launch, so it should be a bit below 980ti by now.

>>60074641
it actually doesn't
overvolting on the other hand...

>>60074778
>It's probably the latter, but they push the clocks to the breaking point so it comes out to ~250W; they did that with Hawaii, they did that with Fiji, they did that with Polaris, and they did it with Ryzen too.
then they improve on the process of producing these chips, and in turn provide usually end up capable of achieving some great OC potential
hence why later revisions of both polaris and phenom II clocked so goddanm well
too bad they're using these process revisions as an excuse to release rebrands and force the market into stagnating at nvidias retarded ass price points

>>60073682
cool

>>60072684
>>60073083
>>60074778

And here is pajeet selling his theoretical GPU that isn't available.

>>60072620
No? The 1070 is on the 980ti's level, the 1080 is faster than the 980ti. The prices of video cards always go up when they stop producing them because of people looking for a second card to SLI/crossfire.

>>60073595
>companies should never release better products for cheaper once the technology allows them to do so

fuck me gpu's are not getting better fast enough anymore. the tflops just aren't there. this is bullshit i'll be back next year, maybe then something will be faster than a 1080ti.

>>60075055
Like most people
their 980tis are overclocked, suprisingly a 980ti at 1.5ghz is a little beyond a stock 1080

the 980ti is seriously an incredible card

>>60072553
Yes.
1070 and 980ti OCs to a level of a stock 1080
And none of these cards is good enough for 4k.
They're wrestling more or less in the same performance category.
1080ti is a big step up from that category.

So ignore the 1080 and get either the 1070 or 1080ti.

>>60075687
>tfw two 980tis
>1080ti doesn't outperform them and I was waiting for year for it
Do I have to seriously wait for Vega now? I'm still salty after the Pro Duo

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>>60074824
It's still a good deal away from the 980ti.
It might be able to beat it in a very AMD skewed game though, but i wouldn't really count that as trading blows.
And that's not even getting into the OCing miracle that was the 980ti's aftermarket performance.

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>>60075580
The 980ti is faster than I thought, but it's still not as fast as a 1080, especially when factoring in 1080 over clocking.

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>>60075938
A real premium aftermarket 980ti would probably come close to a 1080's stock with severe overclocking. but aside from that there should be quite a difference. a 1080 is about 35% faster than a 980ti at stock and very few 980tis could boast a 35% OC improvement.
There are even a few aftermarket 980tis that were over 20% faster than stock out of the box though, that was where the 980ti really sparkled. Phenomenal 3rd party out of the box performance

The fact that no one is asking about OPs fucking monitor is proof you're all faggots.

>>60075938
>twice the price
>seven frames moare, give or take 5.
the way you're meant to be played.

>>60076785
>inb4 I own one of those Xtreme Gaming 980 Ti's from Gigabyte
When your stock clocks are at 1443 Mhz and can handle 1565 Mhz stable with only a +10mv on voltage you know you have a seriously scary card. On air.

>>60074538
290x can still do everything you need at 1080p. I think they cost the same now that they did a couple years ago.

>>60076837
New 980tis are still around $400... And is it really surprising discontinued stuff is cheaper than new stuff?

I just bought a 1080, specifically the Asus right strix one with 3 fans. It was $495.

Did I get cucked? Upgrading from a 390

>>60077080
>upgrading a 2015 gpu to a 2016 gpu

Yeah you got cucked.

I bought a 1080 FE from best buy for $520. I found a 1080 TI FE at microcenter for $629 and bought that after returning my 1080. I feel a big difference.

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>>60077160
Proof. It wasn't a needed upgrade but I wanted the best and my computer is on that level.

>>60077181
Was tempted to upgrade from 980 to 1080Ti ever since upgrading my monitor to 4K and getting a Vive.
But considering Vega is close to releasing and some people have been having problems with VRMs on such a hefty purchase, I'd rather wait and see what becomes of Vega price performance wise.

I have a feeling one more generation is required to squeeze out a steady 60Fps at 4K. Doubt Vega will surpass the 1080Ti in performance, I'd be all for it if it can come close for well under 1080Ti ripoff price of 1300 AUD (975 USD) hoping aftermarket Vega card would be just under 1000 AUD.

Have to check how much of a difference in performance there is between reference model furyX and the aftermarket version to get an idea since that uses HBM1. Hope they stock enough of them early, don't want to wait forever might end up grabbing a Volta GPU or discounted 1080TI if that turns out to be the case.

>1080ti
>considering buying a gpu that's barely optimized for 4k
>vega
>waiting for a gpu which probably won't even be able to handle 4k


Just don't.

>>60074538
r9 390x beats 980 and 1060. It trades with 580. But i d avoid it,350W power usage is a lot even for my 650W seasonic g. So 1070 or rx 580. Forget about the 1060 meme

>>60077855
>I have a feeling one more generation is required to squeeze out a steady 60Fps at 4K.

2xFuryX is enough for 60fps 4k in most games as long as you don't do SSAA, but you do have to compromise pretty often. More often than not you have to run at 1080p anyway because the UI doesn't scale to 4k.

>Have to check how much of a difference in performance there is between reference model furyX and the aftermarket version to get an idea since that uses HBM1.

There is no aftermarket Fury X. They're all reference.

>>60078186
it's overpriced garbage anyways
literally the exact same gpu/performance as an overclocked 480
oh but with higher power draw

>>60078186
>350W power usage
I thought it was impossible for a single gpu card to use that much power but i looked it up and you're right.
Hot damn.

>>60078638
two eight pins plus 75w from the mobo
lmao, so much for all those power consumption gains polaris claimed.
you can literally flash an rx 580 BIOS onto an rx 480.
these rebrands need to fucking stop already goddanmit.

>>60078737
We were talking about the 390x.
A 580 has a power draw of around 220-250 watts out of the box depending on the model.

Wait for Vega. They're going to either beat the 1080ti or they're going to force the price down like they did with Intel.

I'm hearing there'll be a $400/$579 version. Overclocked AIB cards should be $599

>>60078790
>they're going to force the price down like they did with Intel.
Which intel processor went down in price?

>>60078224
Yeah just found out all fury cards were restricted by AMD to reference model.
scaling hasn't been as big an issue for me at 27" for most games.

>>60072553
fuck you

>>60078828
The mainstream i5s/i7s and it forced their hand into revealing some mainstream 8C CPUs next month which will probably be priced at $500 like the 1800X

>>60078886
The most significant drop i can find in intel's mainstream line is the i5-7600k which went from ~$238 in february to $229 presently

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>>60072553
Bought this 2 days ago, it was $30 more than the Reference Design.

I always had an AMD card. I dont considered this as a bias, but (before the recent purchase) I always went for the best Value at the time. (HD 6750>7750>R9 280>R9 380>R9 390)

The 390 was a tricky one. I bought it the same week as the RX 480 Non-Reference coolers weee released in my country. Why? Because at 300 Euro it was cheaper than any Reference (330) and non-reference 8GB (360) 480's! The 6GB Non Reference 1060's were started at 320 Euro! It took 3-4 months from the initial release to get a 480 cheaper.

I hope VEGA will be successful. But I cannot wait for potentially up to half year just to get a new card in a somewhat decent price. Because Im 99% sure this will happen again. I witnessed this over and over since the HD 7900 series. And if VEGA will be a truly beast of a card with a reasonable price tag, I'll gladly sell my 1080 and go back to team red. But so far, I don't regret this purchase.

>>60079708
I have been lucky with my desktop GPU purchases so far from both AMD and Nvidia, encountered no major hardware issues under typical use.
My main gripe with Nvidia is them requiring email logon to access shadowplay, android device streaming, and automatic driver updates. GFE is bloated as fuck anyway so I don't use it these days and my desktop does not have access to ethernet port so streaming performance is poor. Not the biggest loss unless drivers on their site are locked behind a sign on.

Another issue I've encountered with Nvidia which does not lie under typical use is them intentionally fucking with Qemu sending error 43 when the GPU is detected running in a windows virtual machine specifically. Suprise suprise they do not have this issue with their expensive quadro cards or linux as a guest OS. They claim it is a "bug", there is a simple workaround in the VM startup script for now but there is no guarantee they won't fuck with this further in the future.

>>60073027
You need to decide your BUDGET. Then you buy the best price to performance ratio card within it.

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>>60072553
No.

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>>60073027
>implying /g/ is a singular person

>>60080488
>imblying its not
my other personalities would like to have a few words of choice with (you)

>>60073027
Have you tried not being a cuck and making your own decisions based on benchmarks and reviews and pricing instead blaming /g/ for your faggotry?

>>60080041
>My main gripe with Nvidia is them requiring email logon to access shadowplay
You can just install an older version of GFE and not worry about tis.

>>60078790
Literally what are you talking about?

Intel would never do a price drop, even if it got blown the fuck out in every way possible. A price drop in response to a new product is a company's way of saying, "Hey, X is so much better than our Y so we have to cut prices to make Y competitive," which would not only piss off customers who already bought Y, but make people who considered getting Y go for X instead.

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I wouldn't waste money on it, I'd just wait for the 1280 ti and keep my 980ti

i probably won't upgrade until the 1480 ti tbqh

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Any aftermarket 1080s that aren't ugly? Everything is so overdesigned. Can't I just gave an all black GPU with a couple fans on it?

>>60082816
Why do you care though? You don't actually have a case with a window like a teenager, do you?

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>Buy a 4gb RX480
>Download the free 8gb DLC
>A year later get the free RX580 DLC
>OCs a bit better

Should I sell this as a rx580 when Vega comes out or should I roll it all back? Leaning toward Selling as a 580.

How much better is a 1060 compared to a 460? I've had it for about 7 years and trying to decide if its worth upgrading.

>>60083143
like 7 years better

>>60083127
damn, my RX480 sucks
>1365 core max
>1820 mem max because i fell for the 4gb meme
>no compatible RX580 bios, at least not yet available
it's still plenty fast for 1080p gaymen, but still

>>60083143
bruh
not even close to a competition, 1060 would give you around 4-6 times the FPS according to my rough calculations

>>60080357
this guy knows how to buy hardware

>>60084054
Woah. I didn't know GPUs had improved that much. Thanks.

Is it worth upgrading from a 770? Or should i just wait for HBM3? Im still chugging along at 1080p60 just fine but i do get some drops here and there.

>>60072568

Fuck them. I actually bought the first one for machine learning projects and they came out with another one in the same generation. Nvidia can eat dicks even when you buy the expensive shit for good uses they fuck you.

is there any disadvantages to putting near identical cards in SLI?

>ASUS ROG STRIX-GTX1080-O8G-GAMING
>ASUS ROG STRIX-GTX1080-A8G-GAMING

the former is no longer being sold and it's the one i own.

>>60072620
This. Used to be able to 980 Tis for as little as $250. Now the most comparable card goes for $340 on a sale even after the $100 MSRP price cut.

It's fucking bullshit.

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>>60085371
meanwhile you can crossfire any amd cards that are even remotely similar
just nvidia things

>>60085558
i'm actually finding out that it will work just fine. you can do the same to nvidia cards, different clocks/manufacturers work together, just need to have the same chipset and memory.

>>60085371
SLI is a meme. Don't waste your money, you'll be disappointed by the results.

>>60085371
Sell your 1080, buy a 1080 Ti or Titan Xp

Same performance, less issues

>>60085371
There aren't really any issues. For practical purposes you'll want to clock them the same and if they have physically different coolers and sizes board sizes you might want to make sure the SLI bridge can physically fit if you don't use one the old, flexible ones.

>>60085604
>Same performance
If only we actually lived in this world. 1080 Ti is like 30% faster at high resolution, SLI can scale >80% in games where it's well supported. It'll take Volta to provide 1080 SLI performance from 1 GPU.

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>>60085584
i've got a 3440x1440 monitor that overclocks to 100fps. in some games i have to turn the settings down to drive what the the monitor can actually do. i'd be really interested to see an SLI setup help my graphical performance in these games. it might not create an amazing difference but that subtle extra performance has to be there.

>>60085917
it's a shame because for some reason the newer model actually clocks slightly slower than the one i have. if we're talking raw numbers/ego here i'd feel a little bit let down settling with a slightly slower model and clocking them the same (but i still get to tell scrubs i have two 1080s)

>>60076875
I have an MSI 980ti and it can only handle 1443 OC, fuck me

I'd love to get this thing to 1500mhz

>>60085976
How much lower? There's really not that much OC headroom on Pascal once you cool it properly and free it from the restrictive power limit on a default reference card. Even those will boost to >1900MHz with a more aggressive fan curve and a maxed power limit, a top of the line card "might" get you in the 2100MHz range, but a 10% or less core clock increase won't translate into anything very visible in-game. It's not like you can really miss out on too much with a 1080.

>>60082743
this post exactly
my 980ti is going to keep my comfy until I get a GPU with at least 2.5 times the raw performance from it

>>60086094
this is the "overclocking" version of the card:

>STRIX-GTX1080-O8G-GAMING
Core Clock
1784 MHz (OC Mode)
1759 MHz (Gaming Mode)

Boost Clock
1936 MHz (OC Mode)
1898 MHz (Gaming Mode)

and the only one available now is the "advanced" version of the card:

>STRIX-GTX1080-A8G-GAMING
Core Clock
OC mode: 1695 MHz
Gaming mode: 1670 MHz

Boost Clock
OC mode: 1835 MHz
Gaming mode: 1809 MHz

they aren't much different. i think if i do get the advanced version i could try to overclock it.

>>60086414
>i think if i do get the advanced version i could try to overclock it
Yeah, you could. Should be able to get that and if not get close enough so it doesn't even matter. 2 Pascal cards in SLI don't operate at the absolute same clocks anyway, they tend to stay synced but there are still small differences all the time.

>>60086500
thanks for your help

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LITERALLY bought 1080 gaming x today
cuck me up senpaitachi

>>60086651
it's still a boss fucking card calm down

>>60086617
You're welcome

>>60086651
How is that bad? You knew what else is out and that Nvidia has a regular release schedule.

>using a 980 ti from evga for a year and a half
>very pleased with how it has performed, despite the fact that i got cucked by nvidia when they released pascal
>few weeks ago the card dies. It starts smelling burned and there's visible burn marks on the pcb of the card when inspecting it.
>rma it and send it away to evga
>yesterday get a mail from evga saying they're sending me a replacement and that my new card is registered on my evga account for my convenience
>check account
>gtx 1080

Guess I can hold off a bit longer with upgrading now

>>60072553
Not unless you're on a 4k screen. If you're anywhere below that resolution you're a fucking idiot for even considering dropping $700 for a 4k card.

>>60087779
Is it even capable of steady 60fps at 4K when knocking down AA?

>>60087857
Yes, most games you can play comfortably at 4k and for the more demanding ones, just knock graphical settings to high than the retarded ULTRA settings that work the GPU harder for minimal additional graphical fidelity.

I'm planning on getting a 1080 ti my pc is on the fritz r9 290x runs great having issues with blue screens infinite loop errors and 126 errors.

>>60088120
Rumors are that Nvidia is going to show off Volta in May. http://www.fudzilla.com/news/graphics/43485-nvidia-to-showcase-volta-in-early-may
Personally I doubt they'll release Volta in 2017 because they're waiting for GDDR6, but still, it can't hurt to wait a fee weeks just to see what Volta and Vega offer.

>>60088174
It probably won't be for another month or two but the next upgrade should last me for about 2 years and the 1080 ti should do 4k at 60 at a consistent fps

>>60075580
>suprisingly a 980ti at 1.5ghz is a little beyond a stock 1080

That's bullshit though. I had a 980 Ti Classified that did 1526/2000 and it still didn't quite make it to stock 1080 performance.

>>60087779
>youre a retard unless you upgrade everything at once

Is it worth upgrading from the regular Fury?

>>60089507
Not for most users but if you really need an extra 50-70% of performance then it would be worth it for you.

no, but might aswell.
You are not going to upgrade for maybe 2 years so why not.

>>60074824
>It already had 1 year of driver improvements, and it beats the 1060 completely now,

the 480 hasn't improved at all, it's still 5-10% slower than the 1060 outside of hitman and aots. the only scenario where it would be beating the 1060 is if you compare an OCed 480 to a reference 1060.

>>60072620
about to buy a friend's 980ti for $150. one problem though: it's EVGA

should I still buy it?

>>60073027
you missed the part where they tell you just buy RX480

So i dont get this "if you dont game at 4k dont buy a 1080ti" thing.
Wouldnt say buying a ti and gaming at 1080p last you longer, say 3 years at least before you get to upgrade again? You either buy a card can JUST barely run the games you want at the resolution i.e a 1070 for 1080 60fps or you go crazy and buy the best you can.
Am i crazy to be thinking like this? When did all graphic cards fall into "this card is for this resolution only" thing?

>>60072620
The heat generation & Power usage make the new cards much more attractive for every day usage. Besides this isn't really true 1080 is faster than the 980ti

>>60073083
This is exactly why i took my 1080 back to the store after spending $1000 aud on it 3-4 months ago now they are only $670 I got a 1080ti without spending any extra cash.

>>60090762
You're not crazy 4k is only worth it for people who have enough cash to upgrade GPU every year or two to the next flagship.

That being said though 4k is amazing for old games and desktop usage.

>>60090852
Right? I guess if you are on a budget getting a mid range one is understandable.
But if you are already on a good rig that needs no other upgrades and dont care for 4k but have extra money to spend, why not go all out on the GPU.

>>60089507
My general rule of thumb is to have a 100% performance increase at least before upgrading

coming from Fury/980ti/1070 tier the 1080ti offers only about 80% extra performance

waiting on Vega and Volta to see how the playing field is, and then I'll buy whatever GPU can do 200% of my overclocked 980ti for $400

so I think I might have to hold out until 2019 tbqh

>>60090762
>You either buy a card can JUST barely run the games you want at the resolution i.e a 1070 for 1080 60fps
that would be a 1060

the 1060 is for 1080p 60fps, might last another 2-3 years
the 1070 is for 1440p 60 fps, already pushing it, might last another 2 years
the 1080 is the safe 1440p bet
the 1080ti is for 4k 60fps that might last a year

>>60072553
I just upgraded to the 1080 Ti from the 1080.

It's definitely worth it.

>>60077080
>Upgrading from a 390
Retard

Just get the Zotac AMP Xtreme 1070 and put it under water. Cheaper than 1080 by a mile and very good performance for a single card.

>>60072684
amd fanboy here and this is straight bullshit based on currently available facts, and I am waiting to see vega.

read some benchmarks.
http://www.roadtovr.com/nvidia-gtx-1080ti-vs-1080-performance-review-max-vr-image-supersampling/2/

if your use case is 1440 or 144Hz and the difference is worth the price do it

>>60076928

>mfw still waiting to upgrade and sell my 290x's

>>60072684
>to
it annoys me that /g/ has become so retarded that that they don't even notice these mistakes and point them out anymore

>>60093214
>hurr they didn't fall for b8
come on bro

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>>60072553
Yeah, but you should get two 1080 Ti.
One alone is too lame.

>>60086028
>msi
>not 980ti lightning
bruh

>>60097056
it was only $350, sue me

>>60072684
FUCK YOU AMD
I HAVEN'T BOUGHT A 1080TI YET BECAUSE YOU'RE AN ENTIRE FUCKING YEAR LATE ON VEGA

REEEEEEEEEEEEE

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>tfw just play my games at 4k 30fps with my 1080

>>60072702
Wattman Chill.

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>>60072684
i am screencapping this for when real world benchmarks come out. vega is btfo'd, rhajapeet-kun

>>60077181
god damn it, i JUST bought a 1080Ti from microcenter literally last weekend and this shit price drops

>>60098566
>PC hardware is getting cheaper
Unheard of!

>>60098581
I'm not surprised you dolt, i'm just disappointed because i lost on the timing lottery. this is why waitfagging isn't worth it, sometimes there isn't rhyme or reason.

>>60090154
As long as there's a receipt for it the warranty carries over to next buyer. 150 for that card is great value.