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/wt/ watch thread

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Thread replies: 316
Thread images: 60

Chronograph Edition

This thread is about the appreciation of watches, as well as the micro-engineering and materials engineering that are required to make a fine watch.

>Required Viewing For Newbies:
https://youtu.be/_2J5phyd9J4

>Strap Guide:
http://pastebin.com/SwRysprE

Previous thread:
>>59060959
>>
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For those who haven't seen the videos on chronographs:

Part 1: "Roots and Features"
https://youtu.be/o_cBBknT3PM

Part 2: "How it Works"
https://youtu.be/uwJ9TbkNigs

Part 3: "The Flyblack
https://youtu.be/MZGQZ3QSNSo

Part 4: "The Split seconds"
https://youtu.be/m-RHG_vcYGU

Part 5: "Very Special Chronographs"
https://youtu.be/Srpqln4p75c
>>
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S N O W
N
O
W

F R A K E
R
A
K
E
>>
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Posting chink chrono movement
>>
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https://youtu.be/Y25GvQM6IrQ

If you're interested in the COS chrono. Chronos don't need pushers! As few holes drilled into a case the better.
>>
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I really want this chronograph. I've not seen anything similar on the market.

However I really don't get why it's £820. That's a £100 ST19 movement.

Yeah ok they added a date and a moon phase complication but still... that price.
>>
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what does /wt/ think about straton syncro which is on kickstarter right now

i think the design is ok, there is a 40mm version of it too

can be had on a meca-quartz or automatic NE88
>>
>>59069726
Nice daytona homage m8
>>
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So chinese wizards added automatic winding to a Venus 175
>>
>>59069726
another thing to be noted is that u can also have it with a date at 6

meca-quartz has a 24h subdial instead of seconds on the automatic
>>
Cross posting from old thread:

>>59068903
>>59068933

If you are interested in King Seikos, first I suggest you do your reading about them. Most of the knowledge that is out there in English about King Seiko exists on specialist forums about Japanese vintage watches.

The really short version:

The King Seikos with 52xx movements like the 5246 and 5256 were produced by Daini Seikosha (Google it) in the 1970s using their final high end mechanical caliber from before the quartz revolution.

The 52xx is a 28,800 bph automatic movement with hacking, hand-winding, bi-directional automatic winding, quick-set for both day and date and instant day/date change on the 5246 (eliminated on the 5256 to add protection against breaking the quick-set if used between 9pm and 3am).

It is one of the last handful of very high grade series produced automatic movements developed in the 1970s before the quartz revolution. This group includes the Omega 56x/75x, the ETA 2892-A2 and the Rolex 3035.

The King Seiko Special models produced with these movements were very well adjusted from the factory and are often capable of remarkable accuracy if maintained in good condition.

The Suwa Seikosha 56xx caliber, on the other hand, was an independently developed 28,800 bph automatic with similar features to the 52xx, but it does not have as good inherent accuracy and all the versions with date or day/date features should be avoided because the quickset mechanism on the 56xx series has a plastic gear that shrinks and cracks with age alone (not wear) and so EVERY 56xx quickset will eventually fail. As a result, only time only 56xx King Seikos should even be considered.

To be continued...
>>
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Also cross posted from last thread:

>>59068903
>>59068933

Continued from >>59069141 (You)

The King Seiko 45xx watches are manual wind 36,000 bph movements but these movements are prone to excessive wear and need frequent servicing. Be prepared to spend a fair bit keeping it maintained, but the inherent accuracy of this caliber is so high that it caused the Swiss to stop holding chronometer trials in the late 1960s out of fear that Daini Seikosha would push the entire Swiss industry's shit in.

If you want a hand-winding hi-beat from this era I would recommend the Lord Marvel 36,000 instead. It uses the 5740c caliber and manages to have very good inherent accuracy combined with reliability (surprising since it's a Suwa caliber).

My local watchmaker (an expert in vintage mechanicals) recently worked on a couple Lord Marvels and was extremely impressed with the movement.

Now, before you run out and get scammed on auction by a frankenwatch, listen to me carefully: if you are going to by vintage watches, you are OBLIGATED to do enough research about the models you are interested in and the case/dial/hands/bracelet/movement combinations they were offered in to be able to decipher how original one is by yourself.

You should also know the market for them well enough to know what is a fair price for an example in a certain condition, and know to NEVER buy vintage watches from India, South Korea, China, or Southeast Asia outside of Japan, really.

You can find them on eBay, but can usually find better deals on Yahoo! Japan Auctions using a proxy bidding service like Buyee. Be warned though, on !Y Japan you are on your own, if you get screwed you will not get a refund. You have to weigh the risk/reward for that yourself.

Here's my 1975 King Seiko Special 5256-8010, since I assume you haven't seen it before. I got it for $140 USD + shipping off Y! Japan Auctions.
>>
>>59069583

One day...
>>
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>That feel when your 6R15 is back to doing about -2s per day

Freezing in the car seems to have had no lasting effect

>>59069802
Wasn't the 56 Caliber a 21600 movement? Or were those just the lower end ones that they put in the Lord Matics? Also interesting to hear our watchmaker likes the Lord Marvel. He always seems to have something nice to say about Seiko pieces. I also recall him saying that what they did to design the 7018 was "pure fucking genius". Amazing when a guy who normally works on high-end Swiss stuff can be wowed by unassuming midrange Seikos. Really shows you the thought and ingenuity they put into the product.

Funny thing is not all Suwa calibers are inherently unreliable. Their bread and butter, run of the mill stuff was pretty good. Consider the 6106 for a moment; it's just a durable workhorse that does one thing and does it well. It just seems that when they added complication, their shit usually blew up in their faces. So a 36,000 movement like the 5740C that does nothing but tell time would be okay, but then a 6138 chronograph is doomed to fail.
>>
Can I pull off a seiko turtle with a 6 inch wrist?
>>
>>59070025

The 562x used in the King Seiko like we're 28,800bph movements. It's the 560x version used in the Lord Matic that ran at 21,600bph.

In general, Suwa was a lot more experimental and unconventional with their movement designs and a lot of their design decisions haven't worked out in retrospect (56xx, 613x, etc). Daini was a lot more conventional in their approach but totally fanatical about execution (an approach still evident in the modern Grand Seiko which is actually Daini derived).

Our watchmaker worked on a couple of 5740Cs recently and told me he expected them to rival my KS in accuracy, which blew him away. Said they had none of the excessive wear issues of the 45xx.
>>
>>59069554
fuck off ninefag
>>
>>59069817
Thank you so so much Mr friendly canadian. You've really helped me. Do you reccomend taking it to someone to get it checked out after you buy it
>>
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Should I spend 35$ more for the J version?
>>
>>59070578
Seeing as they're the same, no.
>>
>>59070666

Not that anon but I thought the J version is made in Japan while the K version is made in some poor third world country.
>>
>>59070798
Why the hell would they do that? They're all made in the same place, the only difference is markings.
>>
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Look what Vostok just did.

It's automatic, but 44mm, so insecure manlets should look for something else. Then again I believe the original had a pocketwatch movement or something, I can't remember.
>>
>>59070577

You should expect to need to get every vintage watch you buy fully serviced after purchase. You should look for a local watchmaker that does NOT work in a mall and who has a good online reputation for working on vintage watches.

Part of the reason there are so many assholes from Southern Ontario in these threads is that there are two fairly famous watchmakers here who can service literally any vintage mechanical watch to an extremely high standard. This facilitates collecting vintage watches immensely.
>>
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is this an actual decent watch or is TGV jewing me
>>
>>59070578
I would but I'm not a smart man
>>
>>59069141
>>59069261
Thanks, m8.
Mainly looking at the quartz ones though
>>
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>managed to snag a carrera reissue for 145k yen

Went for less than I expected. I guess the other bidder interested gave up since I put in 156k right at the start of the auction.
>>
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>>59070950
>>
> want to build my own watch.
>have decided on a seagull ty2130 which is an eta 2824.2 clone
>all the cases for sale that fit this case are fuck off huge dinner plates

Why the fuck are Chinese cases so fuck huge? The movement is 25mm the case does not need to be 46...
>>
>>59071320
If it's a clone why wouldn't it fit in a case made for 2824s?
>>
>>59071289
Take ur chinese cartoons an' shove em' up ur ass
>>
>>59071443
Why are you typing like that?
>>
>>59071447
Why aren't you typing like that?
>>
>>59071082

Are you telling me you spent 145k Yen on a Y! JP auctions? You got brass balls, lad.
>>
>>59071408
It will but when I search eta 2824 case I just get fuck huge submariner cases. I'm looking to create a classic dress watch
>>
>>59071541
Why?
>>
>>59071555

Of the Japanese seller sends you a broken franken different from the listing, good luck getting a refund. From my understanding Y! JP pretty much automatically rules against gaijin.

Hence brass balls.
>>
>>59071541
Every purchase online is a risk m8.
>>
>>59069817
>>59069802
are there not 52xx Day/Dates?
Only seeing the 56xxs and I really like a Day/Date on a watch
>>
>>59071651
Shit they look much more expensive.
Is it possible to replace the plastic wheel of the 56?
>>
>>59071651

The 5246 and 5256 are day/dates, the 5245 is day only. When searching on eBay or Y! JP auctions search using "Seiko 5246" and "Seiko 5256" to find them.

>>59071702

No. The plastic gear in the quick set mechanism shrinks due to age and cracks, so even NOS replacement parts crack in the bag.

If 52xx King Seikos are out of your budget you can also look at 52xx powered LM Specials like the 5206 and 5216. They were not adjusted as finely at the factory, but share the same movement and are much more widely available.

The 5206 vs 5246 and 5216 vs 5256 are differentiated only by how much adjustment they got at the factory. After 45+ years the condition of the movement is going to count for more than the factory adjustment in MOST cases.
>>
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>REMINDER CASIO'S PLASTICKY DOGSHITS ARE THE MOST REDDIT-TIER WATCHES
>>
>>59071771
Thanks a ton, anon.
Also looking around WUS and finding stuff like "4823-8110" that I can't find anything on.
The plastic piece is a huge put off.
>>
>>59071790
Whoa, other people like things that I like? NO FUCKING WAY.
>>
>tfw lusting for the marinemaster

fml
>>
>>59071841
At first I saw it as a meme, then I started seeing it more and more.
Now I want one.
>>
>>59071790
the calculators ones are p dope tho
>>
>>59071848
it's a big fucking watch. but its beauty is derived from its utility. I'm never going to go deep sea diving but I want the fucking watch so bad.
>>
>>59071874
It's just so sexy
>>
>>59071841
I used to but now I'm starting to hate it. those weird thick, straight lugs, the monocoque case, and the mediocre bracelet are really turning me away suddenly. It really makes me sad since I love the face of it so much.
>>
>>59069698
Check Perpetual
>>
>>59071900
He sells one for $500 which is still a bit steep for a guy making watches in his bedroom with cheap movements
>>
>can buy a seagull st19 chronograph movement for £100
>can buy a case for £30
> no one seems to sell dials

Shame a custom chrono project would be fun
>>
>>59070827
>He doesn't know that the >40mm original fliegers were intended to be worn over flight jackets rather than on one's wrist.
>>
>>59069998
There's one on display at the NYC Seiko store if you're ever around there.

Holy fuck it looks so good in person.
>>
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What kind of watch is this?
>>
>>59071582
Have you actually had any issues with Y! purchases? They're unlikely to list a defective/ fake/franken just because there's the small chance of jewing a gaijin bidding on a JDM auction, right? I just got a King seiko on there, and am considering spending much larger amounts on used Sinns & Omegas.
>>
>>59072941
Limited edition Speedy.
>>
>>59069554
Your mom has several complications.
>>
Got $500 to spend: Seiko, Tissot, Hamilton, or Casio?
>>
>>59073209
>>59072941
The "Vietnam Fuckin Shit" Edition.
>>
>>59073181

No, but I have heard a few stories. It's more so the almost total lack of buyer protection that would have me concerned with bidding more than a few hundred dollars on anything there.
>>
>>59073257
Seiko


Not Hamilton or tissot for sure
>>
>>59073257

Seiko if you want a mechanical.
>>
>>59073281
>not Hamilton or Tissot
why?
>>
>>59073257
If you're spending 500 dollars your best options are new Seiko and lots of vintage options.
>>
>>59071582
>>59073275
What's riskier? Kraut chrono24 seller or Jap Y! seller?
>>
>>59073310
My biggest issue is that their entire line up seems samey across the board. Nothing really seems to be outstanding unless you go after their stuff from the 70s and 80s.
>>
>>59073381
Just to be clear, when I said vintage I didn't limit it to vintage seiko.
>>
>>59071582

Japs don't fuck around like us western piggus.

If they advertise something online, you'll get exactly what you see.
>>
>>59073426
Oh, I'm aware.
But a lot of the stuff I like is that 1930s modern/Bauhaus stuff, so going vintage means going old.
>>
>>59073304
Shitter watch
>>
Fuck me the lord marvel 36000s on eBay are 600+
>>
>>59073518
Any reason why or is this the archie meme?
>>
>>59073533
Nah bro they're fine. Buy a Tissot.
>>
>>59073439
This has been my experience with Y! auctions really. Gotten a few things around $500 in exactly the condition as advertised in the auction. If I'm not mistaken part of buyee's insurance plan is taking a look inside the outer box to make sure the item is actually inside.
>>
>>59073304
Both brands hold little to no horological significance to the brands they were founded on. For example, they're both owned by swatch group pumping out bullshit heritage marketing that has nothing to do with the company today. Hamilton will have a generic ETA (not even top grade) in an underwhelming Chinese case
>>
Is seiyajspan safe or do they like to scam gaijin?
>>
>>59073584
huh, only heard good things about them outside here (specifically the jazzmaster for Hamilton and the Visodate for tissot).
>>
Anyone wear a modern hand winder that isn't a speedy or 1963?
>>
>>59073696
My habring.
>>
>>59073692
That's because their marketing works. Are you getting a piece of shit? No, but you could be doing better for your money. Some people here will lead you to believe anything with an ETA in it is literal dog shit but if you decide to get one just know you could be doing better
>>
>>59073713
Nice what model? I'm Austrian.
>>
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>>59073696
Sure.
>>
>>59073718
The only thing about others, is most don't even approach those two in terms of design (not talking about the movement).
>>
>>59073750
jelly
>>
>>59073750
This watch is proof you can be obviously a Chinese watch and still look classy.

Love the "proudly made in china" on the case back too.

What other watches are obviously Chinese and not trying to fake European style and heritage?
>>
I can buy an eta 2824 on fleabay for £120 and stuff it in a Chinese case. Why does tissot and Hamilton even exist?
>>
>>59073734
COS Chrono. Single subdial for running seconds, one of his 2013 versions with silver dial.
>>
>>59073805
Did you purchase it through one of the numbers listed on the site? Or trading / in person
>>
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>>59073837
I purchased it from an AD when USD exchange rate to their country was very good.
>>
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>>59073864
Nice
>>
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Is there a list of all the chronos available on the market with the Seagull ST19 movement?
>>
I'm looking for a watch with a specific style, can /wt/ give me a rec?

I'm looking for a white paper-like dial with crosshatching or circular engraving. I don't know what the proper term for it is. Blued hands, roman numerals or no numerals, but nothing with arabic numerals and some complications like a moon phase, date, power reserve etc. Not dinner plate sized.

Can spend $250
>>
>>59073713
>>59073805
>>59073864
How hard is it to get a specific Habring model? I've read that they're made in tiny batches annually, and given that they're not priced astronomically high I'd always assumed that ADs sell them quick.
>>
>>59073696
I've got two Nomos watches. My Tangente is the only mechanical I've owned so far that has stopped working and needed to be sent in for repairs.
>>
>>59074669
If you want a specific model with specific color? Yeah that might be tough. I'm not sure what you would need to do if you want something super specific and an AD doesn't already have it.
>>
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Speaking of habring, I shot an email to hirsch asking if they would make a similar sailcloth/rubber strap as this, Short answer is no. I could email habring now, but I'm not sure they'd sell a strap to some pleb who didn't also buy one of their watches.
>>
>>59074790
I don't see why they wouldn't.
>>
>>59074730
I just mean any particular model. Did the AD have your Chrono in stock or did you have to wait a significant amount of time for them to get the watch from Habring?
>>
Also, lets say I'm making a pastebin about watch sizing, and I want to link to some images from the pastebin. Where would be the best place to host those images?
>>
>>59074829
mine was in stock. So I looked at a number of ADs, and each generally had some different colors and configurations in stock. Like my AD had no COS Chrono with no subdials. Others did but only in different colors.
>>
>>59074800
I guess it's just an impression I get from some watch companies that they wouldn't sell accessories to someone who wasn't already a customer. If habring isn't like that then that's pretty cool.
>>
Why do certain Rolex and Omega models like to show off how resistant to magnetism they are?

Do Rolex and Omega owners often spend lengthy amount of time next to powerful magnets so this is a selling point?
>>
>>59075007
I own a Milgauss, and I do spend lengthy amounts of time next to powerful magnets.
>>
>>59075007
Anti-magnetism requires a lot of effort on the materials science end of things; the nickel iron alloys typically used for hairsprings have important physical properties like low temperature coefficients but are able to be magnetized. Creating materials with suitable physical properties that can't be magnetized is hard and expensive.
>>
>>59075105
Work near an MRI or something?
>>
>>59075113
Loudspeaker drivers have big ol neodymium magnets in them. I don't wear my Rolex when I take them apart anyway.
>>
>>59075143
So loudspeaker repair then? How do I get a job doing that?
>>
I've been trying to adjust my mechanical watch by hand here for half a day.

I dont have a timegraph, so I'm just using a stopwatch.

Turned the dial ever so slightly, it ran 7 seconds too fast over the course of 2 hours. Turned it back the other directions it ran 5 seconds too slow over 2 hours. Turned it a minuscule amount forward again, its 10 seconds too fast over 2 hours.

wtf
>>
>>59074835
>not knowing how to host images
Is this your first time on the Internet?
>>
>>59075302
>>not knowing how to host images
I do not want to host the images. I'm asking about available image hosting services and what anons would recommend.
>>
>>59075370
>thinking that anyone literally means hosting a server with the images yourself
Holy shit you're autistic
>>
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>>59075476
You know some of us actually work in IT with this kind of stuff all the time? And you're on /g/, a fucking technology board. In fact, numerous people here DO host a number of things. Haven't you ever connected to a /g/ FTP server?

And I'm autistic because I know what hosting is.
>>
How easy is it to make a custom dial? I want to have a custom watch face and I know how to photoshoop, but nothing really more about watch making in general. What will I need to know?
>>
>>59075492
You give /g/ way too much credit. If you're so smart then why don't you host your own site like Falcon? Oh wait, you're nothing but an inflated ego with no value.
>>
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>>59069554
Does anyone else have the Adventure Time/Deadpool meme watch? What size watch band does it take?
>>
>>59075545
>I connect to some dude's server
>i'm giving him too much credit
??

>why don't you host your own site
I just told you I don't want to host the images or a website. I'm looking to take advantage of an image hosting service.

Kind of a stupid question of you to ask.
>>
>>59073630
They're safe, I picked up two watches from them. However do shop around, they don't alway have the lowest prices.
>>
>>59069554
Has anyone here dealt with CheapestNATOStraps.com? I'm looking to buy some leather NATOs as well as some traditional nylon ones, and maybe some Zulu straps, as well.
>>
>>59075575
>??
What's so hard to follow? This is a simple conversation. Just because this is a technology board doesn't mean most people here know anything about technology.

Not wanting to doesn't explain why you don't. If you're so smart as you claim do it yourself. Be of some actual value. Asking about hosting services is a stupid question to ask because you know... Google. How you got a job in IT I will never know.
>>
>>59075647
>This is a simple conversation.
Yeah, I literally asked where anon would recommend hosting images, and then some guy says
>not knowing how to host images
because he wants to imply I don't know how to use an upload feature on image hosting websites. But that's clearly not what I asked, so he's just being an abject retard.

That's this conversation in a nutshell. Allow me to sum it up for you if you're still having trouble with it
1) NineBall asks to know if you guys recommend any particular image hosting website
2) Anon acts like a retard
>>
>>59075688
Still waiting for you to use Google rather than asking the simplest of irrelevant questions.
>>
>>59075688
Why do you respond to obvious shitposting?
>>
>>59075688
Just make an imgur album m8.
>>
>>59075724
Image hosting services have changed over the years. Things like photobucket and imageshack have turned to pure, unadulterated dogshit. Maybe you remember when ompldr was popular here because it was fucking good. Well that's gone now. /g/ has been using a number of different image/sound/file hosting services over the years.

So clearly what I'm interested in is what /g/ has found as good, possibly even some fresh new services that are stellar but might be hard to find on google. Because they're so new.

Now my question to you is:

Are you so new you've never seen that on /g/ before and just use whatever bullshit pops up first on google? Or are you just so fucking stupid you've never noticed it?
>>
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Autism fight
>>
>>59075747
I suppose I was looking for a distraction from my writing about watch sizes/ratios etc. There's a lot to cover.

>>59075748
alrighty
>>
>>59075517
Please respond.
>>
>>59075767
Depends on how complicated of a dial you want to make. Even FP Journe only has a 30% (iirc) yield for the chronometre bleu dials, since they must be perfect.
>>
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>>59075750
>Google would solve half of all /g/ threads
>Even an entire general dedicated to stupid questions Google could solve to try and prevent individual dumb threads
Yeah, I'm real fucking stupid.
>>
>>59073270
>>59073209
It's honestly disgusting.
>>
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>>59069554
I impulse-bought this 1950s Vostok Sino-Soviet friendship watch for $68 USD shipped on eBay. How'd I do? It's my first mechanical watch.
>>
>>59075995
Not extremely familiar with them but the price was good.
>>
>>59073713
What do you think of the new Erwin?
>>
>>59075995
overpaid. I have like 3 of these types of watching lying around.
good luck having anyone repair them. I was in Ukraine 2 years ago, and no one there could be bothered to fix them.
>>
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>>59076251
Well first off, it's super stealth. So stealth. It's one of those watches where if you walk into a room of strangers, you've got the most amazing watch in the room 99.95% of the time and absolutely no one knows it.

So many new deadbeat watches are 5/6 figures and quite exclusive, and to get one from an independent for 4, pretty impressive.

I wont be buying one. But if someone told me they were, I couldn't imagine ever telling them not to.
>>
>>59076399
How shit is it? I thought the history and aesthetic was kind of neat and I bought it as a gift for those reasons. The recipient wears a Seiko automatic.
>>
>>59076420
Also, Lawyer has been busy, so he probably wont see this. Before we talked about how many watches Habring makes a year. They've now updated their website to say they make 200 a year, that's 12 per model, but up to 20 Doppel, and I believe they aren't limiting the specific number of Erwin/Felix they're making based off their FAQ.

http://www.habring2.com/index.php/en/faqs


Last time we talked they still had 50 as their annual production listed.
>>
>>59063420
How much did you pick that up for?
>>
>>59073777
Beijing Watch Factory (which makes parts for Maison Celadon iirc)
>>
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>manage to make a split seconds chrono only 12.5mm thick, with ~2mm (give or take) being the crystal
>and only $10k

Wizardry if I ever saw it.
>>
>>59074835
FUCK OFF NINEFAG
>>
>>59072941
shitty watch for a shitty person
>>
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>>59074315
Seagull

>>59075370
imgur
>>
>>59072882
I know that, but that's not a Flieger.
>>
>>59075646

>no tracking
>no customer service
>took like a month to get from germany to the usa
>straps are not as long as they claim
>they probably are real leather and the dark leather is great looking
>i gave them to my dad becuase i have fuck hueg wrists
>>
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Hello
>>
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>>59078903
Boy
>>
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were can i find a very plain, cheap and one-coloured watch? has to be digital and has to have seconds (date obtional). not visibly casio
pic related, but no seconds
>>
>>59078990
>not visibly casio
Why not
>>
>>59078990
>describes a casio
>it can't be a casio though
>>
Alright Mr. Canadian I've started bidding on lord marvels. Give me strength.
>>
>>59074835

I would use imgur for that.
>>
>>59074835
Ptpimg
>>
>>59079140
because of the associations that elicits
>>
>>59079199
I am very sure other watches satisfy what described...
>>
>>59077531
>>59075646
Why on earth would you not just buy a nato strap from ebay? It will be $10 and arrive in 3 days.
>>
>>59079284
Such as
>>
>>59075646
>>59077531

They are good for nylon straps.
>>
Instead of buying a Seiko Alpanist from a Japanese web store which are probably charging rip off gaijin prices and all the inherent risk involved AND getting 24.5% sales tax applied to it when it arrived in my countries customs.

Wouldn't it be better to go on holiday to Japan and buy a watch in person?

Yeah I know it's not going to be cheaper. But I'd be getting a holiday too and it would be an excuse to go there.
>>
>>59079377
fuck off, just answer the question
>>
>>59079394
Why not just by a Rolex or Omega or something if you're going to go on a vacation to get a gook watch?
>>
>>59079474
>Rolex and Omega: $5,000
>Alpnist: $400

what a silly question...
>>
>>59079487
>Trip to Japan
>$6000


Just go to longislandwatch
>>
>>59079539
I'm not flying all the way from America, I'm in Europe so I bet the plane tickets will only be $500
>>
>>59079394
If you're ordering it through the gay market it might slip through customs without getting taxed.

I'm talking out of my ass though, I never ordered anything as expensive as a 6r15 Seiko from the net before.
>>
>>59079563
But if it doesn't I'm not paying an extra $100 for fucking nothing. Taxation is fucking theft.

I'd rather go to Japan and have a holiday even if it will be more expensive.
>>
>>59079555
>I'm not flying all the way from America, I'm in Europe so I bet the plane tickets will only be $500

And then you include hotels, transportation, etc. and the price just keeps going up. And if you're buying a Rolex or Omega that's not a high end model and paying $5000 you might have brain damage.
>>
>>59079607
apart from the man on the fucking moon there's nothing that rolex or omega make that I want.
>>
>>59079607
Just stay in one of those capsule hotels
>>
Why don't you just buy it from from a European ebay seller? There's plenty.
Bought my SARB from this guy for 300€ tax free including shipping.
http://www.ebay.de/itm/SEIKO-SARB017-Leather-MECHANICAL-Alpinist-Automatic-Mens-Watch-TAX-FREE-/182415644089?hash=item2a78d1d5b9:g:NK4AAOSwo4pYczFH
>>
>>59079679
Because you get sent a frankenwatch and can't do shit.
Ebay and paypal are notoriously scammy.

I buy watches online, but from actual watch stores.
>>
>>59071790
Stop posting this. It's not funny anymore. And we already concluded the most reddit watch is the SKX or Omega Speedmaster "reduced"
>>
>>59079679
>EU seller
>Location: Hong Kong
>>
>>59079400
what question
>>
>>59079692
I'm sorry, no. Ebay and PayPal almost always side with the buyer. Receive the package but bust it up and take photos saying the watch is missing, the seller can't do shit but refund you.
>>
>>59079750
What if you're sent a fake but can't tell?
That seller is from Hong Kong anyway, not EU.

And they're not even a watch seller, they're one of these "boutiques" that sell everything.

They probably don't even have the watch in stock, as soon as someone orders one they'll get a fake produced by the nearest child labourer.
>>
>>59079692
I suppose it's a risk you take but for me it went well. Got my original SARB with Seiko warranty card.
Tbh why would someone with a reputation to lose ("reputation", I know, but ebay would certainly shut him down) bother faking a Seiko 300€ Seiko?
I don't know if fake SARBs even exist in larger quantities.
>>
>>59079777
If they can produce a fake within a few business days that you can't tell from the real thing the watch industry might need to reevaluate itself.

There are no Seiko fakes because they're not sought-after and expensive enough (like Rolex) or cheap enough (like Casio).
>>
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>China actually has some very good high end watches that look great
>They're like $600 - $1000 which isn't worth dealing with the uncertainty of a Chinese seller and Chinese warranty.
>>
>>59079925
I just remembered all those Indian Seiko 5 fakes or whatever the fuck they are, but that's irrelevant really because it's the same as the Casio fakes.
>>
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>>59079908
If you're an ebay seller that sells 1,000 items a year. One customer sent a bad item giving a 0 star review is not going to effect your ebay score whatsoever.

>>59079925
China fakes everything, they're even faking fashion watches these days.

if you check out Indian sellers on ebay there's hundreds of seiko and citizen franken watches too.

I've got my own Citizen frankenwatch. It's got an english and arabic date wheel instead of english + french or english + japanese
>>
>>59079908
Is the warranty of JDM watches valid outside Japan?
I can imagine Seiko telling round eye to stick it up their ass.
>>
>>59080018
No it's not valid outside of Japan but it speaks for the legitimacy of the seller.
>>
Best watches: JAPAN ONRY
Best cars: JAPAN ONRY
Best video games: JAPAN ONRY

Why do Japanese hate westerner money?
>>
>>59080114
Weeb
>>
>>59080143
I don't mean best ever, I mean best from that company.

Like Seiko release the best seikos only in Japan. Nissan release the best Nissans only in Japan etc.

They would make more money releasing in the west too, but they don't. So they must hate our money.
>>
>>59080056
Did you get a 1 year sellers warranty?
>>
Best Divers watch under $600?
Don't care if its quartz or mechanical.
>>
>>59080252
Vostok Amphibia.
>>
>>59080265
That's one of the ugliest watches you can buy that wasn't meant to be ugly.
>>
>>59080283
Literally kys as soon as possible.
>>
>>59080252
Buy a dive computer for $400 which can actually track the time, your depth and how much air you have left.

Oh... you wanted a "dive" watch to wear around the office and not to go diving in didn't you?
>>
>>59080252
I like the turtle for half that budget.
But for $600 you have tons of options, given that divers have been the current meme for a couple years.
>>
>>59080200
No.
Like I said: You do take a risk ordering from ebay.
It saved me about 100€ though.
>>
>>59080340
Do YOU dive?
>>
>>59080338
sorry you have shit taste
>>59080340
lets be real anon, 95% of people who buy them don't dive.
>>
>>59080338
He just said what everyone actually thinks. They're fucking awful
>>
>>59080357
>>59080360
Lol, die plebs. Enjoy your Submariner knockoffs swimming in the magma of hell.
>>
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>>59080398
>Vostok fanboy calling anyone a pleb
>>
>>59080398
Not even Stalin wore a vostok.
If you're going to be a slavboo at least wear a Pobeda.

t. someone wearing a vostok without a model number
>>
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My only question is, how the fuck do you mill/machine a block of saphire crystal?
>>
>>59080426
>without a model number
But that's wrong.
>>
>>59080468
Better question why do these high end watches always look fucking disgusting?
>>
>>59080426
Vostok was founded a decade after Stalin's death.

>>59080468
The chinks apparently make blocks of tank armor out of synthetic sapphire, so this must be figured out for a while now.
>>
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>>59080283
Looks fine, and unique.
>>
>>59080468
Diamond coated drillbits, maybe.
>>
>Not getting a scubadude and putting a pepsi bezel on it straight away.
>>
>>59080505
it was founded in 1942, Stalin died in 1953.
>>59080513
It literally looks like it's made of the cheapest metals with 0 finish and a dial designed by a child.
>>
>>59080539
It's an actual dive watch not one of these """"luxury"""" """"dive"""" watches

It's like comparing a Landrover Defender to a Porsche Cayenne.
>>
>>59080572
>Landrover Defender
Except this isn't a cheaply made or designed item.
>>
I've never really been a fan of watches cause I figured that they are just for rich people to show off brands but some of these actually look quite nice.
>>
>>59080582
But it is an actual work car designed to do work and go off road.

It's not a """"luxury"""" """"sports utility vehicle"""" marketed at people that will never take it off road.
>>
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>>59080496
>>
>>59080539
>it was founded in 1942
Literally was just an outside-Moscow plant of the 1MChZ until the late 50's.
>>
>>59080600
Most people who buy the vostok don't dive either.
Most of those "luxury" watches are made for diving as well.
Also the Defender and Cayenne are priced similarly.
>>
>>59080340
>People incapable of understanding that "dive watch" refers to a design genre of watch rather than a watch that must be used to go diving.

This has to stop.
>>
>>59080614
>it literally existed before the 1950s
>>
>>59080539
It's steel and the bezel is chrome not that you can actually tell without talking out your ass. It's fine considering the cost and the equipment that have to work with. They've managed to survive this long in capitalism, mostly. I'm sorry you can't appreciate a little fun on the dial but there are literally dozens to choose from including plainer ones.
>>
>>59080572
What does a NEET do with an actual dive watch? Bath time with mommy?
>>
>>59079245

Patience. Patience is the key. As the saying goes: Act in haste, repent in leisure.
>>
>>59070884
>tfw live in semi-rural VA
>tfw just jewlery stores that do shit like changing batteries
>>
>>59080633
If you can manage to make something that looks like it's waterproof but isn't, then it's fucking garbage.
>>
>>59080635
But not as Vostok, not in name nor in watch models. Do you have real autism?
>>
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>>59079245
I'm doing the same with Cosmotrons and Elnixes.
>>
Just ordered a $320 "Seiko Alpinist" from a Chinese seller who is apparently located in Ireland.

Let's see what I get. I have ebay and paypal protection.
>>
>>59080696
The Vostok Company was founded in 1942 when one of the Moscow watch-making plants of the First Moscow Watch Factory was evacuated to Chistopol, a small town located on the Kama River in Tatarstan.[1]

They may've not used "Vostok," but it was still vostok. Are you literally retarded?
>>
>>59080695

Of course they still have to have the water resistance, my point was that the genre of water resistance watches with screw down crowns, rotating timing bezels, and high levels of water resistance are CALLED dive watches for historic reasons, not because anyone sees them as a substitute for diving computers.

Do you have to be a WW2 German pilot to like fliegers? Of course not, as the name refers to the genre of watch rather than mandating its function.
>>
>>59080696
Current name is irrelevant. The facility is the same. Stalin very well could have worn a Vostok factory watch but not a "Vostok".
>>
What is the Vostok Amphibia rated at?

I've just heard that the design of the watch means water resistance increases the higher the outside water pressure.

Does that mean it's water resistance is infinite up to the point of crush depth?
>>
>>59080667

Google is your friend start with "area" "watchmaker" "vintage" and see what you can dig up.
>>
>>59080769
probably the standard 200m.
>>
>>59079718
No we didnt. Most reddit watch is definetely the f-91w
>>
>>59080769
It uses a compression system, yes. Water resistance will increase with water depth but eventually the pressure will overcome at >200m.
>>
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Anyone ID this tool beside the watch?
>>
>>59080737
They literally were not. They didn't even produce watches till after the war.

>>59080750
Soviet companies didn't work like capitalist ones, especially the state owned companies. For instance did you know companies like MiG and Sukhoi didn't produce aircraft, apart from the prototypes? They were given to some other companies to be built, the Mi-2 was even built completely in Poland. Watch production was something similar, a watch or movement designed at one company could have been produced in all the other ones as well.

What I'm getting at is Vostok didn't become Vostok until they designed their own models. In the Soviet system the product was more important to the company identity than the manufacturing site, since that wasn't their property anyways but the states.
>>
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Post Watches & Desk Plants
>>
>>59080930
looks like a huge swan neck regulator
>>
So how do you feel now Archie is famous

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mOLCj7ARD0U
>>
>>59081038
Being on NZ tv is like being on the local tv channel in the middle of Oklahoma.
>>
If a watch is equipped with a "swan neck regulator" so you regulate it in a different way than normal (by moving the lever on the balance wheel)
>>
>>59081038
he's such a sad desperate man
>>
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>>59081038
Oh wow, he's so tense.
>>
>>59081363
Being an international youtube star probably puts a lot of pressure on him.
>>
I saw Archieluxery at a watch boutique in Auckland yesterday. I told him how cool it was to meet him in person, but I didn’t want to be a douche and bother him and ask him for photos or anything.

He said, “Oh, like you’re doing now?”

I was taken aback, and all I could say was “Huh?” but he kept cutting me off and going “huh? huh? huh?” and closing his hand shut in front of my face. I walked away and continued with my browsing, and I heard him chuckle as I walked off. When I came to pay for my stuff up front I saw him trying to walk out the doors with like fifteen Rolexes in his hands without paying.

The girl at the counter was very nice about it and professional, and was like “Sir, you need to pay for those first.” At first he kept pretending to be tired and not hear her, but eventually turned back around and brought them to the counter.

When she took one of the Rolexes and started scanning it multiple times, he stopped her and told her to scan them each individually “to prevent any electrical infetterence,” and then turned around and winked at me. I don’t even think that’s a word.

After she scanned each watch and put them in a bag and started to say the price, he kept interrupting her by yawning really loudly.
>>
>>59081437
Kek
>>
>>59081437
Pretty good but you should have added something about him calling someone a fucker.
>>
>>59081469
Also something about shitter watches, missed opportunity.
>>
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Sup nuggets.
Finally got a big boy job a few months back, and been putting aside a little bit every month for my first /real/ watch.

I'm going to get either a
>GS Snowflake
Is Spring Drive a meme?
>GS Hi-Beat
>Rolex Milgauss

What you guys think? They're similar price points, within like 2k of each other.
And don't give me the I can't get a GS serviced meme.
>>
anyone here own a luminox?
>>
>>59081518
>Similar price
>Within 2k
>>
>My wife gave her blessing to buy the SARX033 I had my eye on for the last six months for by coming B-day

Can you imagine getting married?

Jesus Christ, all these watch forums are filled with threads about their wives complaining or them having to ask their wives permission.

How does your wife have any say what you do with YOUR earnings?
>>
>>59081760
The problem isn't getting married it's getting married to a cunt who runs your life
>>
>>59081760
It's almost as if marriage is a partnership or something and large purchases (especially of frivolous jewelry) should be discussed
>>
>>59081842
Nah dude go out and finance that patek
>>
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>>59081518
Spring drive isn't a meme.

I did go for the hi-beat myself, Seiko's been making them a long time, hi-beat GS is an established heritage. I like it.

The SnowFlake is sweet though. It's the new movement, it's the new titanium alloy. They're not sticking to the traditional 316l on those spring drive models. And that snowflake dial is just beyond prefect.

Both are good. But, given the chance, I'd pick hi-beat again.
>>
>>59081852
Well, I am single so I already took out a second mortgage for that
>>
>>59081842
No, husband earns his money, wife earns her money. And both spend their money.

This avoids every single argument about money
>>
>Parents got divorced because my dad bought a £1,000 Saxophone without "consulting" my mum when she spends over £5,000 on shoes, makeup and handbags a year.
>>
>>59081870
Only your second? I've sold a kidney and a lung.
>>
>>59081905
t. single guy living in la la land
>>
>>59081924
t. beta cuck
>>
>>59079962
Is this Chinese too, and is it in the price range you mentioned?
>>
>>59081946
You're cute
>>
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I should buy a new watch and DOME the fuck out of it.
>>
>>59081987
Keep providing for that worn out fat 35 year old, how is looking after Chad's son?
>>
>>59081760
Having conversations with married men be like

>Hey Nine
Yo
>I talked to my wife about that thing you do
Oh yeah?
>Yeah she said I can't do it but suggested I do this other thing instead
Really? My thing is pretty fun
>Yeah but she doesn't like the idea, so I'm going to do this

Put anything you need to in the blanks. Maybe it's a friend I was talking to about guns and she's going to push him into airsoft. Or maybe I was talking about motorcycling or owning a performance car and she pushes him to go kart racing. (Not to say that airsoft and karting can't be fun, but a grown man being told he can't pursue an interest and given a different one by his woman? I see it a lot. I see married men who have never even picked their own hobbies)

>>59081920
We all know that the saxophone was the excuse to make the divorce happen, the real reasons took years of build up.
>>
>>59081905
>>59081924

Not him, but that's how me and my wife do it. We have a shared account for home expenses only.
>>
>>59081920
I'm single, but I do get this shit from mom
>A new knife again? Why do you need so many? Collecting? Preposterous!
>You know you have so many old watches you restored, you should sell some of them for good money!
These are all out of my pay btw, I may live with my parents and no gf, but I have a job. Meanwhile she got a new, even bigger phablet, the size of a Soyuz solar panel, because the old one was already a year old. And she's going to Malta because why the fuck not.

I hate collecting cool shit only to hide it from everyone because I can't stand their babbling.
>>
>>59082030
You ever gone to a hardware and home store on a Sunday and seen the married couple browsing for drapes and the guy looks like he wants to do a murder suicide?

That's how I imagine married life.
>>
>He doesn't live the MGTOW lifestyle while financing watches and fucking thai ladyboys

Fuckers detected
>>
ITT men who let their marriages get out of control. If your wife has this much control over your finances and hobbies it's not "Getting Married" that is the problem it's you let her get to this point. If she was like this to begin with then you're an idiot and married the wrong person.
>>
>>59082230
It doesn't matter how much you "keep your woman in check" when she divorces you, ruins your life, takes half your possessions and your child.

(Flip a coin, that's how likely she is to leave you. 50% of marriages end in divorce.)
>>
>>59082256
I guess I find it hard to see the other point of view since things seem fine for me. I'm fact she loves the fact I have a watch hobby and also finds it interesting / is a collector. I guess that's a corner case
>>
>>59081518
Spring drive isn't a meme but it almost feels like "cheating" which I don't like. Also the Snowflake is made out of titanium which sounds really cool but in practice it makes it feel like you have an aluminum wristwatch. Rolexs are milled out of a solid block of 904l steel and they have the heft to match which makes them "feel" like a watch of substance and worth for their size.

The various normal GS are definitely nice watches but they're fucking boring and I don't think in the long run you will be as happy if you don't get the Rolex. And a Milgauss is an exceptional choice at that.
>>
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>Some guy had his grand seiko stolen out the mail
>The seller literally put there was a watch worth hundreds of dollars on the label

Why are people idiots?
>>
>>59082294
It could all be going fine, but remember that 50% of marriages end in divorce. So the odds of her staying with you or divorcing you are literally a coin flip.
>>
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>>59082256
>(Flip a coin, that's how likely she is to leave you. 50% of marriages end in divorce.)

Marriage success rates are not a coin flip, even if we're going by statistics here. For example it varies wildly by how many sex partners a woman has had before marriage. Virgin bride scenarios have like an 80% success rate, while women that fucked 15+ men has the number crater down to less than 20% success.

It goes up higher if you make her a stay at home mom. Honestly if you go into marriage the RIGHT way with a good woman it's actually quite abnormal for it to fail unless it's you who's acting like a complete asshole. The vast majority of failed marriages are the result of beta cuck men who marry garbage women based off of how much pussy they're getting. No fucking shit that's not going to work.

Pic unrelated
>>
>Marrying western women

This is your mistake.
>>
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>>59082304

Have you ever handled a GS high-beat in person? Pro-tip: You cannot comprehend how batshit crazy the finishing level is unless you have, and they are made of stainless steel as well.

I'm biased though, I really believe that the GS high-beats have the best manufacturing quality of any series produced mechanical watch on the market.
>>
>>59082393
In other words don't marry American or European women. Get a girl from the third world.
>>
What is it, third or fourth day? How does recently bought seagull anon like his watch
>>
>>59081737
nigger, if youre spending 6 thou on a watch, whats another grand
>>
>>59082418
GS hi-beat are magical. I've given great consideration to what steel sports watch I would need for the GS to no longer be my most worn watch. It would probably be an 15202st or nautilus
>>
>>59082168
That's just the married version of taking your bitch to the mall.
Sure it fucking sucks, but you get to fuck later.
>>
>>59082511
Buy a piguet if you want that style
>>
>>59082429
I'm not sure third world necessarily means virgin
>>
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>>59082442
I've ordered a shiny gator strap for it. Being a military watch I purchased a home made raw leather strap (like pic related) but the watch looks too dressy to not have a nice strap.

It's running 15 seconds fast. Which is annoying my OCD but is within specification for the movement. It may calm down after the watch has been broken in, it's manual wind so while it's been sitting in the store for however many years it's been since it was made, it's never been run.

The watch runs +15 seconds fast in all positions, I'm not sure if that's a good thing or not. Most people seem to think 0 positional variance is a good thing, but it would be easier to regulate the watch if it was -15 seconds when stored crown down so I could just keep alternating the position I stored it in to keep the watch on time.

If it's not gone down to within +/- 5 seconds after a month I'll take it to be regulated.

Someone on reddit regulated theirs to +3 seconds so the movement is capable of it.

https://www.reddit.com/r/Watches/comments/35peuu/seagull_regulating_one_of_those_crappy_chinese/
>>
>>59082531
You mean the 15202st?
>>
>>59082418
Like I said they're nice watches of exceptional quality, it's just that personally I find most of them a little boring. Rolex watches generally have more character IMO.
>>
If you order a watch and it gets stolen in the mail, but you only find out it's been stolen after you sign for the empty box, are you fucked?

The seller will just say you are lying and the watch was delivered.
>>
>>59082688
Strap go-pro to chest. Sign for package and open it on camera.

Or just make sure the seller is trustworthy.
>>
>>59082688
Buy it with Paypal and you could literally receive the watch, record a video tape selling the watch to a pawn shop, send the tape to paypal of you selling the watch and paypal would still give you your money back if you said your package never arrived.

Paypal is heavily biased towards the buyer when it comes to stuff like this.
>>
>>59081863
Thanks for the input. I'm slightly leaning towards the Hi-Beat myself.
Got to see a Snowflake in person though, along with a few other GS' and well damn, the Snowflake kills it in the looks. Not to diminish the GS.
Just fuck, it's a beautiful watch.

The thing is though, it's almost a dress watch. I wouldn't wear it all the time. A Milgauss or a Hi-Beat (due to the good selection) I'd get more use out of I'd imagine.

>>59082304
>cheating
I gotta disagree.
It's a very specific movement, and at that, one that I find very interesting.
It's not supposed to be mechanical or quartz. It's its own thing.

>aluminum vs. titanium
Never really thought about the lightness. Good point, I don't think I'd care about how it "feels" as in doesn't "feel" substantial, but the weight, might throw me off.

>GS fucking boring
Maybe that's a opinion thing. I find a lot of Rolexs boring, some GS' too. But there are a bunch of really nice ones.
The Milgauss is in a league of it's own though in relation to other Rolex watches. In my opinion at least. It's SUCH a good buy, I just don't really get their pricing.

>>59082418
>batshit crazy the finishing level is
I can attest to this. Seen and tried on a few. They're sweet.

>best manufacturing quality of any series produced mechanical watch on the market
That's stretching it a bit.
>>
Should I pay for $50 for a watch to be regulated or should I buy a timegrapher for $120 and learn to do it myself?

Doing it myself has high fuck up potential.
>>
>>59082418
>You cannot comprehend how batshit crazy the finishing level is
Maybe, but won't this be unnoticeable after a few months or a year or two of daily wear?
>>
>>59082783
>Stretching it

To clarify, I mean produced by a production watchmaker (I.e. not haute horlogerie brands or high-end independents).

Grand Seiko does far more hand inspection, hand polishing, and hand assembly than Rolex does, and does so to an absurdly fine level of detail that requires a loupe to appreciate.

Grand Seiko only makes ~5,000 watches a year for a reason.

>>59082557
+15s/d in all positions for a new mech is good. Mechanicals have a strong tendency to slow down as they run in from new, and yours apparently shows little positional variation.

>>59082846
I have a timegrapher and regulate my own watches. It's not that hard, honestly.
>>
>>59082886
Even when beat up nice finishing is very obvious.
>>
I have a $20 chinese watch and wildspectra light in front of me. Gonna try seeing if I can get this regulating shit down before I try it on something worth money.
>>
>>59071857
No they're not wtf are you on about nerd?
>>
>>59083035
Should the regulator lever be hard to move?

Mine seems stuck in place
>>
>>59069726
Too sporty for me.
>>
>>59083180

Watch this video first:

https://youtu.be/zQKoksLz12g
>>
>>59079718
>WE
>>
>>59072875
Plenty of people on eBay sells dials.
>>
>>59082502
Like 16,7% which is a lot.
>>
So I just had a go at regulating a chinese watch that was minutes fast a day.

I managed to get it to a point where it was swinging between +5 and +15 on wild spectra so I think I've done alright.

The thing is my watch I actually want to get regulated is already doing that, and seeing just how fiddly it was to get to within 15 seconds I think I need to pay a professional to do it.
>>
>>59082256
>>59082331
THIS IS NOT FUCKING TRUE. I would beat the fuck out of you I'm so sick of faggots perpetuating that. That hasnt been the case since baby boomer post ww2 gen. Divorce rates have plummeted since and are nowhere near 50%. Look it up or cite a source for your so called 50%
>>
>>59082429
>>59082414
This is why I like girls that are westernized but born elsewhere. I find they usually retain their culture and are pretty wholesome and aren't spoiled cunts like women bred here
>>
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>>59083383
>usually retain their culture
If you take a woman from a different culture aren't you worried she'll have trouble adjusting to or even hating the culture you bring her into? What if she's miserable after moving to your country?

Also, we're past bump limit. We can continue marriage/relationship/women bullshit here, move watch-related bullshit to new thread

>>59083440
>>59083440

>>59083440
>>59083440
>>
>>59083449
I meant more like she's born elsewhere but came here (as in is already living here when I meet her) and has learned how culture here is in the first world but is still not retarded enough to embrace ALL of it.

But nah I'm not afraid of the culture shock thing of our cultures merging I really want that actually. I did have to put my pride aside a little as I got older and say fuck it to the whole keeping your bloodline "pure" bullshit. My parents aren't super happy about this though but I don't really pay their opinions mind.
>>
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>>59083825
>born elsewhere but came here (as in is already living here when I meet her) and has learned how culture here is in the first world but is
Ah. That makes sense
>>
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>>59080572
>Vostok
>Landrover
More like pic related.
>>
>>59082312
>Blaming the seller for following the law/customs rules
Thread posts: 316
Thread images: 60


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