/g/, please be completely honest: will I notice a difference

If you cared about placebo you wouldn't have bought those in the first place.

>>58882287
lol btfo

>>58882236

Get Fiio E10k. You will not be disappointed.

>>58882236
Yes, amps are very important. A 2 in 1 DAC/Amp will make the biggest difference if you don't want to spend much.

>>58882236
Buy a low price USB interface (i.e. Scarlett Solo) instead a preamp or a dac. It gives you more posibilities and the same audio quality.

Enjoy your veil.

>>58882236
>/g/, please be completely honest: will I notice a difference if I get an amp for these?
Yes, you'll notice they're louder.
>my laptop can easily make them loud enough.
Then don't get an amp.

Definitely.

Grab a schiit fulla2. There is nothing better for the price.

>>58882609
Louder? No, that's not what the amp does.

Very common misconception.

Headphones past the bottom of the barrel will sound bad without amp, at the same volume.

>>58882555
This is the only amp/DAC you will ever need if you don't go full autism

>>58882588
USB?

Schiit Fulla2 is the best usb dac/amp. Way better than similarly priced devices.

>>58882650
>Louder? No, that's not what the amp does.
that's exactly and all that an amp does.
>Very common misconception.
I think you meant 'basic fact'.
>Headphones past the bottom of the barrel will sound bad without amp, at the same volume.
[cetacean needed]

>>58882691
unless it has gain (usually the case for convenience), it won't even increase the volume at all.

Amps are about providing current. The signal (and its volume) is left untouched.

Most high end headphones are power hungry. Most sources can only power the low end.

>>58882236
yes you will notice a difference becuase different frequences require defferent ammount of ohms, typically on the upper bass range.

>>58882236
An amp will actually make them sound good.

I'd go for a usb dac+amp. There are a bunch of suggestions above.

>>58882616
>>58882668
I see in reviews they say when the volume knob is 3/4 of the way up there's distortion. Is this true?

>>58882236
I dunno but my hd650 were inaudible until I got an amp

>>58883019
Would depend on the headphones.

Distortion happens when there's not enough power for the desired volume with specific headphones. It also happens when the volume is too high for the headphones.

My experience with fulla2 and HD598 is that past half the volume it is deafening. I am usually between 1/4 and 1/3.

The fulla2 delivers plenty of power for a usb device, but it can't drive every headphone ever.

Try audiobot9000. If the combo delivers 110dB that is enough. 115 is good. Past 118 the margin is so good there is no further benefit.

>>58883096
>Would depend on the headphones.
HD650s, same as OP

I'm beyond frustrated reading 80% of the audio advice on /g/. You guys don't seem to know anything about it at all but still sound so confident and qualified to give advice.

>>58882951
That is the most idiotic shit, complete pseudoscience. Stop giving advice on amplification if you don't understand the subject at all yourself.

Headphone market status(low end or high end) is completely unrelated to drive requirements.

>>58882966
Just what are you smoking?

They would sound better plugged in an amplifier / receiver. You'll get proper bass too.
That's what they're meant to plug in with those high 600 ohms

Ofcourse quality of the unit matters a lot.

>>58883227
>Headphone market status(low end or high end) is completely unrelated to drive requirements.

Sure, but usually the cheapest headphones are also low impedance and easy to drive.

>>58883518
Most headphones are designed to have sensitivity so that you can drive them on most devices, including many high end options. Low impedance only makes them a harder load.

>>58883462
Amplifier does not alter bass or if it does, it's one shitty amplifier. Bass isn't limited on weaker sources any more than general volume is. High impedance headphones would be the safest thing to plug into a weak source if you have enough voltage and if you don't volume is the only thing you are limited by. You are much more likely to clip your amplifier and cause issues with a pair of load impedance load.

>>58882236
asd

>>58883687
>safe
these are not professional audio headphones meant to plug in and out of a mixer
they just share an old design

>Amplifier does not alter bass
except it does

>>58883735
>safe
I meant that as safe for the amplifier. You will strain it less by high impedance load. It will operate more linearly and be less likely to clip and thus distort.
>except it does
There's nothing a good amplifier does to some *insert vague range of frequencies here* specifically other than increasing signal amplitude. It's not an equalizer or a signal processor of any kind.

Why not get a mixer?

>>58882236
The e10k is all you need. You should notice a small difference and at the very least it's a clean noiseless source. It's usb powered and has a bass boost switch if you want to nig it out now and then without using an EQ.

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>>58884316
>pic related

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I've been looking at X99 motherboards. Some of them have amps. Are they any good? Even worth considering? Especially for things like an HD600 or K/Q701/2/the Mio set.

Would rather have it in the motherboard itself if I can than have to have an external thing in the way.

Is an Objective2+ODAC worth the $130 extra over Fulla 2?

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>>58882236
Yes it will, I'm running the HD600's + bottlehead crack + idac2 + ipurifier

Running straight from the idac 2 or PC does work and is loud enough, however, there is absolutely no impact on the low end, trebles are bit more harsher and soundstage is gone.

I recommend buying a decent DAC + amp or at the very least an amp.
If you're on a bunch, the schiit stack, if you want to one up, dragonfly red and and the schiit amp, and one more step up is idac 2 + ican, or idac 2 +bottlehead crack with speedball which is what I have.

>>58884598
Or you just buy the e10k instead of a meme that will make the hd600's even warmer.

>>58884642
It's not a bad meme. I was on the fence of "high end" DACs and amps until I tried one. It's marginal improvement, but if you listen to music every day it's definitely worth the costs.

>>58884873
Fair enough, I just don't think the hd600's need to be any warmer whatsoever. Sure, the sub bass is lacking a bit but I don't want a warmer sound overall when it comes to them.

>>58884553
Doubt it.

Fulla2 has enough power and is more useful, due to its build and connectivity options.

At such higher price, I'd be looking at the modi2u+magni2u schiit stack.

>>58884316
Ive got a e10k and a hd600 , if you max the OS volume, which you should, 2/8 on the volume knob (low gain), is fucking ear shattering

>>58882236
wait...you've been using those without an amp?

>>58884519
I have a Z97 with crystal audio 2 and hd598.

The fulla2 I got recently is so much better. Even if I use it as amp only, which is already a huge improvement, the onboard dac sounds way worse, with detail missing.

The board amp is warm (volume drops with frequency) probably a simple opamp, but it's actually provided by the HDA chip, which datasheet mentions amp and how to enable it, but neglects to provide any meaningful specs for the amp.

tl;dr save yourself the trouble and just get fulla2.

>>58885441
Just the info I was looking for because they don't provide meaningful specs. Thanks.

HEADPHONE AMP IS NOT ABOUT GETTING IT LOUDER YOU FUCKING NIGGERS. WHEN WILL YOU LEARN?!
Seriously even my phone gets my HD600 loud enough at 1/4 of the volume, but that's not what it's all about.

>>58882236
Yes, they have high impedence.

>>58882236
>will I notice a difference if I get an amp for these?
It will be even louder. So sure.
>my laptop can easily make them loud enough.
Assuming the laptop is linear with a flat response, the additional amplifier is superfluous. That is, if it is.

>>58884598
You're ignoring the obvious change in response, which would be given by the impedance of the components, in giving your impression.
>dragonfly red
Mediocre performance device.
>It's marginal improvement
It's not an "improvement", just a difference that sometimes doesn't even exist.

>>58885542
>AMP IS NOT ABOUT GETTING IT LOUDER
Amplifiers are about increasing gain by definition.
There are additional factors such as keeping the transfer function steady within the passband, minimizing introduced non-linear artifacts and uncorrelated signal.

>>58885555
>Yes, they have high impedence.
That usually works out to more of a gain issue, which was already stated to not be a problem.

>>58885371
Exactly, the e10k is all you need 99% of the time. It's fucking stupid to buy anything else unless you need more inputs/outputs etc.

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>>58885999
You must be kidding. The fulla2 is such a much better device, starting with the amp specs:

https://www.audiobot9000.com/fiio/a/e10k
https://www.audiobot9000.com/schiit/a/fulla-2

But also costs about the same. And is well-made rather than chink. And has a good DAC built in. And a line in. And two line outs (with and without volume). And separate USB for power, should you need it with a cellphone or the like.

>>58886250
Isn't that pretty much brand new? someone mentioned that last week and I'd never heard of it. I can get the e10k for £60 on amazon prime but I have no idea where to buy that from in the UK. I'm pretty sure it would cost quite a bit more.

If the Amp+dac drives your headphones more than loud enough then specs such as Impedance, power output and frequency range seem pointless. If the fulla 2 has more uses and costs nearly the same then I agree with you that it's better.

>>58886415
Just checked and it costs literally double the price of the e10k and only £9 of that is shipping. Unless I have uses for the ther ports, would it actually make a difference? I do like the giant volume knob on the top tho :3

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>>58886415
It's relatively recent, but not brand new. It is a huge improvement over the original fulla.

Product page: http://schiit.com/products/fulla-2

General intro to Schiit: http://www.head-fi.org/t/701900/schiit-happened-the-story-of-the-worlds-most-improbable-start-up

Schiit is well know for the magni2 (and modi2+magni2 "schiit" stack) and their higher end stuff. Compared to the stack (which I have, too), the DAC is pretty much the same and the amp provides less power (because USB powered) but is still enough for most headphones out there, making the stack really bad value in contrast.

I use fulla2 with Sennheiser HD380 Pro at work and the MMU stack with HD598 at home.

I had a Fiio (k5) for a couple days. Returned it as while it did the job, it had this odd hiss.

>>58885389
The laptop acts as an amp so that would be no. If that amplifier is powerful enough to drive them loud enough(as it was), it has done its job. Now there might be some issues with response linearity but most modern devices are more than good enough to make these unimportant.

>>58882236
Get an amp/DAC combo, or both as separates. The fiio stuff recommended here is pretty good, and there's also the schiit fulla 2 or a magni/modi stack. There's some other budget options out there, but I wouldn't recommend them as highly.

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>>58886462
Which shop?

It's a bit expensive in the UK (where I got mine). I was tempted to import it, but didn't, because I wanted it fast and didn't want to gamble with customs.

They have a few official distributors in eu: http://schiit.com/faq/international

I'm not aware of anything better at its cost, but EU prices hurt.

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>>58886539
Most laptops don't do headphone amping.
Furthermore, their headphone out is generally a compromise impedance between that of a typical headphone out and that of a typical line-out.

Even if it did amping, it'd be a simple op amp, which do ramp down volume as frequency increases, as bad as 20dB between 10 and 20KHz.

HD600 is clearly past the point where you already want an amp, in any event. Its impedance is high.

>>58886527
Oh I'm aware of schiit, and even the fulla, but since I got my 600's and e10k I mostly stopped looking at audio stuff because I love what I have. My e10k is absolutely silent and works perfectly with my 600's imo, and it sounds exactly the same as my o2 amp+dac I had in the past.

I'm weirdly tempted to sell my e10k and buy the fulla 2 now though, especially since I'll never go full retard with a big amp, I think the small ones are more than good enough. The fulla 2 looks handy and future proof as fuck, and I love the big volume knob on the top compared to the e10k. Hmmm, not sure if I should buy it or not. I'm going to look at a few videos and decide.

>>58886578
http://schiit.eu.com/fulla%202

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Sounds good to me desu.

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>>58886666
DESU, I have the schiit modi2u+magni2u stack and the fulla2. I bought the stack first, I kinda regret the stack but will keep it anyway, because it's just a small dent on my net worth ;)

For my headphones (HD598 and HD380 Pro) and my future headphones (HD600/HD650, still undecided, probably whichever has a great sale first), the fulla2 suffices but:
- I have the fulla2 at work, and the stack home.
- The modi2u has extra inputs I use (computer via rca spdif, ps3 via optical spdif, usb actually free to plug wherever I please)
- It's so pretty on my desk!

I'll probably get a SYS to add to the stack, as I play llsif/deresute and having an alternative (analog) input than the modi (which is digital only) seems handy, vs connecting headphones to my oneplus3 directly.

>>58886629
>Most laptops don't do headphone amping.
I don't know a single laptop that didn't have a headphone output so that's just wrong.
>Furthermore, their headphone out is generally a compromise impedance between that of a typical headphone out and that of a typical line-out.
Compromise impedance? Do tell.

Typical line out is often fixed in volume(obviously with a digital source you can attenuate it anyway) around 2 Vrms and uses sturdy connectors, commonly with channels separated. Line outputs often have low output impedance but it can still be in the hundreds of ohms which is a little problematic on some loads. I don't see laptops or mobile devices doing this as the most common device plugged into the stereo out is a pair of in-ears or headphones.

>which do ramp down volume as frequency increases, as bad as 20dB between 10 and 20KHz.
You are going to have to explain what on earth do you mean by this. Linear distortion increases with output power? How does that work?

>HD600 is clearly past the point where you already want an amp
"Clearly" as in a situation where you already have a powerful enough device to drive it to painful levels with no distortion but because this device isn't titled as a "headphone amplifier", it's unsuitable?

You want an amplifier when you are short on power and that shortage manifests itself as a lack of volume. In the case your devices are downright unsuitable for plugging a load into, you might want to get an amplifier to act as a high quality output(low noise, low distortion, high gain, low output impedance).

>in any event. Its impedance is high.
And?

Why are you avatarfagging?

>>58885312
That is personal preference, but some people like warmer sounds. I like it when listening to Classical and Jazz.

>>58885905

>>>58884598 (You)
>You're ignoring the obvious change in response, which would be given by the impedance of the components, in giving your impression.
>>dragonfly red
>Mediocre performance device.
>>It's marginal improvement
>It's not an "improvement", just a difference that sometimes doesn't even exist.

I get more of a difference with headphones rather then the source. The better and proper the source, the cleaner and better sounding the headphones are, thus an improvement.

Also
>Dragonfly red
>Mediocre
Maybe on paper, but the Sabre chip is considered really good. Have you listened to them before on proper headphones driven by a proper amp? It sounds really good for the price.
I really don't understand why you have to argue that there isn't a difference when there clearly is.

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>>58886803
>I don't know a single laptop that didn't have a headphone output so that's just wrong.

Having a headphone output doesn't imply having an amp. Most can only provide so much power, and that will cause headphones to sound like shit when trying to listen to them at anything but a very low volume.

Particularly true if headphones have high impedance (it gets bad at as low as 30ohm already)

>> Compromise impedance? Do tell.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Line_level#Connecting_other_devices

>>58886863
All devices that output sound have an amplifier. Otherwise it wouldn't be able to drive $5 chink earbuds.
You need a better amplifier if you have high impedance cans. Common sense?

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>>58886803
>You are going to have to explain what on earth do you mean by this. Linear distortion increases with output power? How does that work?

Imagine having an EQ and progressively ramping the volume down 10 to 20dB between 10 and 20KHz. That's more or less what most simple amps will do.

>>58886751
Cheers for the info, If I ever upgrade from my e10k I'll be buying the fulla 2.

I own the hd600's and they're the best headphones I've ever tried, but after a few months I had to try out the hd650's to see what the fuss was all about, and the actual difference. I bought the 650's thinking they would be a slightly more bassy version of the 600's, they weren't. The 'extra' bass was barely noticeable and the overal tonal balance of the 650's didn't sound as good as the 600's. The 650's are amazing, and are the second best pair I've ever tried, but theres something perfect about the balance of the 600's. If you're a bass fiend neither will satisfy you, though I'm sure you could EQ them, but again, to me, it would ruin the tonal balance of the 600's.

>>58886886
>Otherwise it wouldn't be able to drive $5 chink earbuds.

These aren't exactly high impedance or hard to drive.

Every sound output will provide a little power (Because else they really can't present a signal), but that doesn't mean they bundle a headphone amp.

>>58886892
drop the avatar already retard

>>58886863
Great, you just managed to disprove your own claims. Did you understand that Wiki page at all? It specifically warns about using low impedance loads with line level outputs to avoid short circuiting them. Line levels are not designed to be current sources so with low impedance load you'll much more likely clip the device and potentially destroy it because low impedance draws more current. The higher the impedance of the load, the less likely this is to happen and the safer it is for the amplifier.

>Having a headphone output doesn't imply having an amp.
Actually it does.
>Most can only provide so much power
A legitimate concern on some devices with limited output power.
>and that will cause headphones to sound like shit when trying to listen to them at anything but a very low volume.
Unless you clipped the amplifier(cough with a low impedance load cough), you'll just be limited by volume.

>>58886861
>Maybe on paper, but the Sabre chip is considered really good.
Or he has seen the device measured so we don't have to think about what goes inside the device, just what comes out. It's less than mediocre, it's just bad:

https://www.seeko.co.kr/zboard4/zboard.php?id=m_device&page=1&sn1=&divpage=1&sn=off&ss=on&sc=off&select_arrange=headnum&desc=asc&no=69

>>58886886
>Common sense?
Common sense until this:
>You need a better amplifier if you have high impedance cans
That's not how it works.

>>58886892
I can imagine the audible impact of this but I can't fathom how or why on earth would a device operate like that hence I asked you to explain it.

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>>58887051

>> Did you understand that Wiki page at all? It specifically warns about using low impedance loads with line level outputs to avoid short circuiting them.

Yes it does. But it also explains that headphone outs have a lower impedance.

It says it's "to provide a bridging connection with 32 ohm headphones" -> Suppose your line out is 30 ohm. That'd mean about half the power is lost before it arrives to the headphones, which is less than optimal. Most headphone amps try hard to go as low as possible, typically managing to go under 1 ohm.

In audiobot9000, damping factor = headphone impedance / output impedance. Some FAQ mentioned that a value of 10 or higher is desirable; I do however not know what's the basis of that number. But the reason you want a low impedance output is as above.

I was ready to buy an odac+o2 but some of the posts in this thread make it seem like there are cheaper better alternatives. Can someone convince me to buy a different dac and amp?

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>>58887193
The ODAC+O2 only redeeming feature is being open hardware.

It does measure decently if you ignore the price, but they do not measure well once you take the price in consideration, and compare it with similarly priced devices, such as the schiit stack (modi2u+magni2u).

If I had to recommend a device, and particularly true if it's your very first amp, you can't go wrong with the Schiit Fulla 2. It's cheap, has enough power for most headphones, and its inputs/outputs make it crazy nifty. A do-it-all device.

There's a fun story between Schiit and the author of ODAC+O2. It's "Chapter 12: Schiit Goes Evil?" in: http://www.head-fi.org/t/701900/schiit-happened-the-story-of-the-worlds-most-improbable-start-up

>>58887051
>>>58886892 (You)
>I can imagine the audible impact of this but I can't fathom how or why on earth would a device operate like that hence I asked you to explain it.

Op amps have such characteristic response curves.

If you're using them with your pc don't buy a DAC, it's pure meme. If your pc can power them now you won't see any improvement.

>>58887248
I'm looking into the fulla 2 now. Any other recommendations? Is there a noticeable difference between the fulla 2 and say, the magni 2 + modi 2? I'm very new to this as I've never owned a standalone dac or amp before.

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>>58887499
I own both (fulla2 & mmu stack). They sound the same to me. The modi2u+magni2u stack is however way more expensive. I slightly regret buying the stack, but I'll keep it anyway, because I do use the fulla2 elsewhere (at work), and because I have some good uses for the modi2u (spdif coax from computer, spdif optical from ps3) and the magni2 can power almost all headphones out there, which seems potentially useful in the future.

If you simply don't have an amp, I'd strongly suggest the fulla2 due to really damn good value for the price, having a good dac built in, being super portable, the satisfying volume knob, and the extra inputs/outputs.

>>58887337
It's not pure meme. While it's true that sounding as close to the source is the goal and that good dacs manage that, it's also true that laptops/motherboards use shit DACs or do not isolate them properly (effectively making them shit DACs).

As most good headphones sadly have high impedance, having a headphone amp is far more important in the end result. Still, any good dac is better than a shit dac.

>>58886720
If that sounds good to you, you shouldn't have bought hd800s.

>>58887499
Fulla 2 is completely fine for the majority of headphones, and the big knob really makes it. You could always upgrade the amp later if you really need to.

>>58882951
If the headphone can be driven loud enough an amp won't do much unless the source has very high output impedance, in which case it may sound "muddy" because of the low damping factor. The ideal real-world source would have an output impedance <1ohm.

>>58882236
I haven't noticed anything major when I bought an amp for my HD650, though the source was able to drive them more than loud enough. HD600/650 have decent enough sensitivity to get quite loud with a lot of sources. If you're happy with the way they sound you probably don't need an amp. If the bass is really sloppy, maybe it could help, but before spending on an actual headphone amp try them on other devices with headphone outputs, such as regular stereo amps which have their own headphone output. Some of them can have decent headphone amps built in.

>>58882555
I have an E10k, and it's pretty nice. I have tried larger amps before, and honestly, if you're not an extreme audiophile, you probably won't be able to tell the difference.

>>58882287
Physics aren't placebo tho

>>58887149
The damping factor describes how well the amp can control undesired vibration in the driver, due to things like the physical inertia of the thing. It's mostly relevant to bass performance, because low frequencies require the most energy, so if you've got a low damping factor the amp isn't very capable of controlling the driver, which means you'll have some unwanted vibration.

>>58882236
Yes. It won't be as hyueg as some people make it out to be but you will hear a difference, especially depending on the size of the internal amp in your laptop.

Try plugging them into your iphone and you'll see what I mean. They sound worse the less power they have typically, up to a certain threshold where it doesn't make a lick of difference past that (sorry multi thousand dollar audiophiles...shit's all snakeoil)

>>58883052
strange because to me they get up to respectable volume no matter what source it is.

The sound definitely changes however.

>>58889361
desu I'd pay a little more for the nicer knob that fulla 2 has.

>>58882236

it's not loud -- or at least, not just loud, it's dynamic range -- the difference between

a shitty TN screen with 55% color gamut, low nit and contrast,

and a glorious OLED with 99% gamut, high nit and high contrast with fast refresh

if those are your cans, i recommend the creek obh-11 which is about $90 used

>>58882236
Do you even know what an amp is? It makes your shit louder. If those are too muted and muffled for you because your source can't drive it adequately, get an amp. Otherwise you don't really need one.

Now, some audiophiles might tell you an amp makes a major difference apart from volume. That is placebo.

DAC = snake oil

your headphones = sound like shit without sufficient power

>>58882555
What does this bass switch do? It has an artificial bass boost?

>>58882555
This will get the job done for anything you need.

Do not get a DAC if you don't have interference (buzzing when no sound is playing) or an Amp if you are content with how high the volume can reach.

>>58882588
This is also good advice

>>58887193
The O2 is next to totally transparent. Ignore the Shiit shill, he's in every single thread.