I am okay with this. It merely means that it's not going

Why would the government give money to you instead of keeping it to themselves?

>>57812336
As Stephen alluded to, we just have to hope that a universal basic income will be provided to everyone.

>>57812364
Were the optimists ever right about the future? I don't recall a single instance of that happening.

Star Trek style communism never happens. You always end up with North Korea.

>>57812336
Because a 25% and rising unemployment rate is going to get really ugly, really fast.

>In before "Population control" because govt. is just unrelentingly evil at all times

>>57812507
You guessed right.
There will be no universal income, only population control.

Nobody owes you a living for simply existing, dumb neet.

>>57814812
That's the thing. They aren't needing to give you shit. The robots will be gratis therefore no one owns the fruits they produce

>>57814891
Unless those robots are manufacturing themselves for free and mining their own component materials for free, then no, someone still has to get paid.

>>57812319
holy shit people still visit Slashdot?

Universal income? More like install botnet to recieve foodstamps

>>57815916
This is the one sacrifice that the people who own the robots will have to make. They will have to allow the goods produced by the robots to be available to everyone for free. If this can not happen, then the lower 80% of humans are doomed to extinction.

I hear tell of a contraption which weaves cotton without the help of man.

>>57816014
>If this can not happen, then the lower 80% of humans are doomed to extinction.

More like the people with the robots need to pay a "protection fee" so that millions of starving people don't skull fuck them with sheer numbers and take their shit.

>>57812319
no consumers = no income. you think the wealthy want to see their consumer whores die away?

>>57816041
Automated guards will gun them down. They'll have to evolve past nigger in order to survive.

>>57817209
>automated gaurds teleport behind them
>slices them 3000 times with the worlds strongest katana

We are talking numbers here. Sooner or later the killbots are gonna be out of ammo.

>>57812319
>Automation kills most low and middle class jobs
>Government enforces universal basic income
>Intelligent, educated and wealthy people are the only ones with jobs and now have to provide for everyone
>Population of uneducated and stupid peope skews out of control because poor and stupid brown people sit around all day making babies
>billions of potential immigrants are clamoring to get into a country with universal basic income
>Resources become ridiculously precious
>Automation can't sustain mass of stupid majority while intelligent people die out
>Entire population dependent upon the government
>Government has absolute control of vast majority of population so you need a citizen tracking card to collect UBI
Communist Utopia

>>57817294
just give free birth control and abortions
and a univeral basic income won't increase with children. you can't feed lots of children on a basic income, idiot. if people try to do it anyway, take their kids away and lock up the parents for negligence.

>>57817323
>The type of government that is elected to provide UBI will encourage population control, discourage raising families on welfare and be anti-immigration
What a wonderful imagination land you must live in

>>57812319
There will be a slow a steady purging of the less desirables of society until only the worthy remain. These worthy will have shown their worth to society as no machine can replace what they do.

Communism is on the rise again. Comrade Stalin and Mao will be proud of us.

>>57812319
No, what will happen is that more people will work in other industries to support artificially induced consumerism. Our economy depends entirely on growth, sustainability doesn't really matter.

>>57812319
>he thinks there'll still be a middle class
People will lack a raison d'etre.

>>57812507

>In before "Population control" because govt. is just unrelentingly evil at all times

Well you are very naive if you think the government is not going to just massacre everyone who complains if it gets ugly. And it won't end up like egypt or tunisia with soldiers refusing to murder the population. We in the west will have robot soldiers and automatic drones.

Robots, AI, virtualization etc have been driving down costs for years, but the savings are rarely passed on to consumers

>>57817436
And to think economic conservatives still use unsustainability as an argument against socialism

> Implying the capitalist elite won't keep the money for themselves and eliminate anyone deemed problematic and not productive
muh communist neet utopia

>>57815916
The people who gets paid are the owners of the robots. With the unemployed without any money to buy/spend on stuff, the economy will collapse.

If the unemployed are given bit of cash to spend, then the economy keeps going. The unemployed are given bit of hope, and thus continue to seek jobs.

>mathematician/physicist
>implying his opinion on anything outside those fields matters
UBI isn't happening.
The US has 198,000,000~ people between the ages of 20 and 65 aka working age. If all of them were given a pittance of $15,000 per year it would cost the government just under $3 Trillion. Our total budget for 2015 was $3.9 Trillion.
This figure isn't even accounting for all the retirees on social security, and their medicade benefits.

The idea of a UBI being even remotely possible depends on all other forms of welfare being removed, and all bureaucratic overhead associated with them also being cut. If we removed social security, medicade, and all other social assistance programs we'd only save $2.4~ Trillion. We don't have the money for it. We're not going to tax businesses enough to be able to afford it and keep them in the US at the same time. Not to mention how unrealistic it is to write 70 IQ urban trash a blank check. These people would run out, spend their welfare on shoes, then beg for more money exactly like they do now. They aren't going to pursue higher education if you remove all incentive to be productive in society. UBI would only expand the degenerate welfare class.
It is an unworkable Commie fantasy.

>>57819218
The real savings are coming from globalization of cheap labors/factories.

The $100 monitor you got, the $100 laptop, etc are products of globalization of cheap labor. This also meant that there's no growth in wages for domestic economy.

The robots might be able to do something similar, but I doubt the wages would increase to match the productivity. If anything, monetary system might become outdated and credit based system might be implemented (for resources/time)

>>57819255
It's not as if that money is vanishing. Pretty much all of it is likely to go straight back into the economy, stimulating growth

>>57819255
>spend their welfare on shoes
So the money goes back to the business

What's the problem?

>>57819255
>They aren't going to pursue higher education if you remove all incentive to be productive in society
The sole factor for not pursuing education is because lack of time, need for money to feed themselves, the need for money to pay for college.

If education became free, if UBI were given, people would actually get more time to do what they want, learn, educate themselves, do hobbies, etc

All these retards arguing "muh unaffordability"

Why do you want to force people to work unnecessary jobs when the economy is perfectly capable of working with a fraction of the population employed thanks to automation.

If you disagree you're just too stupid to look at the bigger picture of what automation really means for society as a whole

>>57819346
Cause people don't deserve help.

They need to earn it. Just like everyone else. That's the mentality anyway.

Real issue is people need to see a way out of the work system and towards a growth system driven by automation. Utopia is something of a liberal ideal world, the republicans (as an idealogue) hate it on principle alone.

>So the money goes back to the business
>What's the problem?

The problem is you now have millions of low IQ blacks starving because they wasted their government allowance, because you decided to give them money instead of a separate food stamp allowance, because you had to get rid of the program to make way for the UBI, which is still impossible to pay for.

>>57819319
>The sole factor for not pursuing education is because lack of time, need for money to feed themselves, the need for money to pay for college.

You really are a sheltered leftist retard.
They don't go to college for the same reasons they don't try to get jobs. They don't want them. They have no motivation to work. They want to college welfare. They are perfectly content being leeches on society while they chill with their fellow gang members and sell drugs for extra income.
They are a cultural drain. You cannot throw money at it and make it go away. You have to change the culture, and UBI will not do that. UBI only encourages more of the same on a larger scale.

>>57819346
>I don't understand economics
Entry level jobs are not "unnecessary" and workforce participation increases GDP.

>>57819255
>implying his opinion on anything outside those fields matters

Who are you again?

>>57819400
what are you going to do when every truck driver and fast food worker is fired

I'm currently working in automation. Software automation to be exact.

I've also thought about the issues being discussed in this thread and so far I've come to the conclusion that in order to avoid most of the social problems that automation creates, governments and companies need to start treating robots as employees. This means imposing on the companies that they have to pay wages to the robots. The wages don't really have to be paid out, this will only serve as a basis on which the government can collect taxes (and contributions to the state budgets - such as pension funds, healthcare budgets and so on).

The robots will still be much more effective than an employee, so the companies will still get that benefit, but I really don't see another solution.

I hope you can understand my point, as English is not my native language.

>>57819467
I'm not going to do anything since I don't work in either field.
The market is living thing, it constantly changes and adapts. People displaced from one field will inevitably transition to another if they want to make a living.
We shouldn't foster a welfare class in any capacity. Social assistance was never intended to be anything more than a temporary helping hand, not a life style.

>>57819387
I cannot stand the "only hard work deserves to be rewarded" mentality. It's just reinforcing the system of indentured servitude and controlling the masses. The establishment are terrified of people being able to find enlightenment and following their dreams. When that happens, their system collapses. Some of the hardest working people in the world are getting rewarded the least for it.

>>57819509
Financial stability reduces crime and poverty. It provides stability to single parents who struggle to keep their child in school and the poors who struggle to meet the basic needs(shelter/food).

Although many may become dependent on the system, it would be better than spending $160k per prisoner per year (new york city).

Other cities would save more money by simply providing financial assistance to the poor than letting them rot in the jail.

>>57819509
Automation allows a market to run very efficiently with a small percentage of the working population employed. You aren't going to find a way to put those in menial jobs today, into imaginary high-skill jobs in 15 years. You either introduce a UBI, or a massive government make-work project forcing people to work on jobs machines could do better, which would be much more expensive. Or option 3, society collapses due to mass poverty.

>>57819255

Turns out the concept of money is not sustainable in a futuristic society, who would've thought? thinkingface.jpg

The more united the world becomes, and the more advanced the world becomes, the less the concept of money makes sense.

>>57819509
Welfare society is the one people should be aiming for, not avoiding imo.

When machines can do faster/cheaper/smarter/harder than man, then man should be relegated to pursue their own interest rather than work harder than machines to feed themselves.

Globalization caused the loss of wage growth for America. Automation will make it even worse.

There is almost no industry safe from automation. Be it technical work, menial labor, creative work, etc All things are subject to automation sooner or later. Just because its not right now, doesn't mean it will never be.

Reminder that welfare societies can work if you give out welfare for NOT reproducing.

>>57814812
Except if you are "refugee", apparently.

>>57816014
>the lower 80% of humans are doomed to extinction.

you say that like its a bad thing

>>57819387
>They need to earn it. Just like everyone else.

Thats an insane thought process and people who truly believe this are usually the most spiteful people in the world.

What about things like inherited wealth, nepotism, genetics and general fucking circumstance just to name a few.

No one "earns it" because there is no concrete law stating what "earning it" is. Its all fucking relative to the person.

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>>57819600
Race is a better indicator of crime than poverty level.
The group of people who are single mothers at disproportionate rates don't care about keeping their kids in school.
Poverty isn't the issue here, the culture attached to a certain segment of the population is the problem, and it is welfare that reinforces this culture. Money is not a cure for societal ails. State dependency does not lift anyone up.

>>57819609
The money has to come from somewhere unless you want to run a deficit of a couple trillion dollars every single year for all of time.
If a majority of the population isn't working and generating taxable income, if the middle class isn't working, you can't justify taxation to business owners at all. If the tax burden on the top 10% increases further, with a non existent middle class, they absolutely control virtually all revenue the federal government depends on. If they start leaving the US the entire system crumbles.

It is not sustainable. This is a poorly thought out childish Commie fantasy.

>>57817323
>>57817323

my country already does that and i can tell you it doesnt work.
poor dont care and breed like rats
immigrants pour in from countries that breed like rats

>>57816032
Underrated post

>>57819750
That picture is fucking retarded

We should provide basic income but also chemically castrate everyone who is on it. Then implement a system where you have to have a license to have children.

>>57819301
Retard economics 101

>>57819734
It's the same mentality that also created a ton of phony jobs that don't actually contribute anything.

Pointless busywork because nothing is worse than not having a job.

>>57819786
>facts are retarded
Typical underage Commie response

>>57819750
>you can't justify taxation to business owners at all
Society falls apart if they do not.

Your argument is awful man, you're essentially saying we should allow the destruction of society to keep gross inequality that will be increased greater still by automation and mass unemployment

>>57819804
>can support a larger population with less work in the future
>let's have less children

What retarded logic is that?

>>57819829
Why would we want a larger population when we could have a smaller one with better quality of life?

Retard.

>>57819509
Nobody is arguing that it should be a lifestyle, at least not yet. Universal income is not supposed to completely replace your salary or any other types of benefits systems.

It's supposed to enable people to work less, to stop wasting government time and money on means testing for benefits, and to prevent people from falling into the poverty trap if they are unable to find or carry out work for whatever reason.

I cannot think how it benefits anyone to be punishing people for being poor. Yet that's what we are still doing.

>>57819483
>company has to pay for each robot
>company physically links all robots in a factory and claims it therefore only has one robot

>>57816032
Pray tell, good Sir, is it true that these machines rip the arms of children from their bodies?

>>57819805
So welfare is just wasted money that we never see again. Gotcha.

>>57819750
Your picture does not account for tax havens because it cannot account for tax havens, and it is therefore irrelevant.

>the money has to come from somewhere
Yes, it comes from the money saved from automating so many jobs. You can either freely give it, or you can have it taken after the revolutionaries murder you and your family, because that's what's going g to happen when huge numbers of Westerners find that they have no means to feed themselves anymore. Your choice.

>>57819750
>poverty isn't the issue
Its always been the issue.


>money has to come from somewhere
Money is arbitrary. The real factor is trust.

>>57819852
You want a lot more people than just the bare minimum necessary to maintain the status quo.
Else you're just stagnating and don't push technology even further.

>>57819816
>1% of the population earning 17% of all income
>implying this is fair
a bullet for every banker, a bullet for every politian

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>>57819900
Push technology even further? We're already too far as it is.

>>57819931
They work 10000% harder than average people. So they earn more

Muh trickle down economics

>>57819945
We're not even fighting for independence from Earth with Gundams yet!
Clearly, we have a long way to go.

>>57817075

>no consumers = no income.

Logical fallacy -- see: brand new iPhone and can't pay baby mommas visit to the pediatrician.

>>57819826
People have to find work if they want to survive, just as every other point in history. You go to where the work is. You start your own business, carve a niche out for yourself.
For many that means getting into a more technical field, and acting like this is impossible is nothing less than fearmongering. Farmers turned to factory workers, and factory workers have turned into office workers. Major transitions in the majority workforce have never been detrimental.

As automation advances it takes over menial typically low paid labor. Repetitive tasks that are easiest to program a machine to do. This gradual incursion of automation itself is a driving factor for people to pursue other fields. Stop hand holding lazy people and they will find work.

>>57819897
Regurgitating shitlib platitudes isn't an argument.
Poor whites do not commit crime at the same rate as poor blacks. Culture is the issue, not poverty. If you want a single factor to predict what the crime rate in a city will be you look at the racial demographics.

>>57819931
Yet another underage Commie response.

>>57819985
>People have to find work if they want to survive, just as every other point in history.
stopped reading right there
That is simply not true at all, you're an idiot

>>57812319

>I am okay with this.

Because your opposition means anything in the grand scheme of things. This is the way things have been heading since the industrial revolution.

What most people don't understand is that they are just fodder for the machine. Blinded by the media machine that makes them think they can win whats never been won, do whats never been won.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mYajHZ4QUVM

>>57819997
Yet another underage butthurt Commie response

>>57819985
>let's have more inept people dragging down technical fields
Great idea...

Finland, Canada and Scotland are all going to be piloting universal incomes soon. Then we'll see how well it works. It has proved effective in very small scale trials so far.

>>57819985
You simply don't understand the revolution that is occurring. Machines are capable of replacing humans in the vast majority of jobs, there is no "more technical field" for humans to get into. You're competing against a robot that can be programmed once, and build thousands of times. Humans are inferior to robots in the workforce, if you stopped obsessing over making sure humans have jobs, and instead focus on how to best utilize the resources at our disposal in the future the answer is obvious.

I like how people think that the "tech literate" will be crowned as Kings of the world, and not chained up with an electric collar forced to keep things ticking.

>>57820058
And it's also worth mentioning Sweden's 6-hour work day, where productivity has increased. The Nordic model should be an example to everyone of how to create a happy, productive and prosperous society while still keeping the capitalists happy.

>>57819733
No one said it's not

>>57820061

A couple of things:

1. Who will program these robots?
2. Who will maintain/debug these robots?
3. I like your over generalization for the sake of baiting responses. :thumbsup:
4. I do believe this will happen to an extent, but not full on dys/utopian nerd day dream.

>>57812319
>nd therefore the middle class will have free time to do things they enjoy such as golfing and sun-baking at the beach
The middle class will starve because most of the country is still deluded by capitalism and "basic income" is abhorrent to them. The country will also collapse as welfare costs increase at rates and magnitudes never seen before.

There will be armed revolts.

>>57819985
>automation takes over menial labor
You don't seem to understand the magnitude of automation. Its not just ready to take over menial low wage labor, its there to take over high wage fields too. Like law firms, musicians, scientists, analysts, economists, bankers, etc

The takeover of menial job is already happening or is just on the brink of happening. The high skilled labor is next on the chopping block.

Once those two are removed, there will be more "lazy people" than you can count in your lifetime.

>>57820109
Eventually they'll program and maintain themselves, obviously with human oversight. Machine learning is one of the fastest moving fields of technology.

>>57820077
"Evil AI" scaremongering is retarded.

But I could imagine all those worthless MBAs who'll end up owning all the machines treating the maintainers like slaves.

>>57820120
And authors and story tellers.

Now that the Library of Babel if made it's easy to have a program use it to create original stories.

>>57820124
"human oversight"

That will be gone in a hundred years or so too, if machines ever become aware of itself.

>>57820147
>"Evil AI"

what about that post implied that it's the machines chaining the workers up?

>>57820166
No john, you are the machines

>>57820061
On the contrary it is you who are in the dark here. Automation is represented by a given job market shrinking by a few percentage points per year. Tens of millions of people are not displaced over the course of a day. Machines have to be made for specific roles, they have to be cost effective enough for business owners large and small to afford, they have to be purchased and installed. It is a change that takes years, and even then it is not 100% displacement in a given field.

Warehouses all over the world still have human workers operating forklifts despite fully automated stock systems existing.
Welders all over the world still have plenty of work despite automated welding bots existing on assembly lines for decades.

Your ignorant fearmongering is awfully reminiscent of Ray Kurzweil's Singularity bullshit. Everything is right around the corner and its super dramatic! Its just going to be next year!

>>57820120
Have you ever seen a trading floor?
Protip: Computers running the stock market didn't make all those people homeless.

>>57820109
To all your questions:

significantly fewer than the amount of jobs the robots will replace

>>57820124
>obviously with human oversight.

Someone has never read 'There Will Come Soft Rains.'

>>57820176
Nothing, that's why I considered an additional scenario. You weren't explicit, so don't blame me if those scenarios aren't what you had in mind.

>>57820195
>Protip: Computers running the stock market didn't make all those people homeless
They should have. That segment is full people that do nothing but bullshit themselves through meetings.

>>57820195
Thats because its controlled by the very few/very rich. If automated stock became available to businesses/people, it would put the people out of work.

>>57820195
> Everything is right around the corner and its super dramatic! Its just going to be next year!
Your words not mine. Each profession is going to be replaced one by one

I'm not sure what you're arguing though, are you saying automation is not going to replace the majority of the workforce? That's a pretty weak argument

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Have any of you have the slightest inkling of an idea of the MASSIVE amount of innovation that would have to go into automating unique, functional programming, let alone science and music and sheit?
As of now, even flipping burgers at McD's is a complicated task to program and isn't even worth it.

Automation is approaching, but not at such a fast pace.

Also
>well but we'll redistribute wealth and the majority of people won't have to work.
Yeah, sure, but how about:
>overpopulation
>the spite of the working few
>the controlling effect the wealthy have on politics

>they don't understand that all the poor people will be genocided and only the very rich and machines will remain
You better start believing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sLJ0zZQb9x0
These types of uppity nouveau rich are the ones who'll get to live in their communist utopia, everyone else will get derezzed.

>And therefore the middle class will have free time to do things they enjoy such as golfing and sun-baking at the beach.

What makes you think middle class will still exist?

>>57820195
>it hasn't happened completely therefore it will never happen
Pretty short sighted aren't ya?

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>>57820301
Thanks Nixon

>>57820253
You're very clearly an edgy Communist teenager.

>>57820266
I'm saying that the incursion of automation into a specific field is a gradual process, and people will transition to new fields. People find work. Necessity is a driving market force. It isn't the end of civilization as we know it.

As I originally stated, UBI and everything surrounding it is a poorly thought out childish fantasy.


>>57820273
Most here are too dumb and too detached from reality to understand any of this.
They're also oblivious to the fact that certain fields being automated actually creates the demand for their very own non automated counter parts. McDonald's being fully automated would give way for someone to start their own competition of burgers made with care by a real human "chef."
Just like boutique bakeries, chocolate shops, and dozens of other businesses exist despite commercially available equivalents which are mass produced in automated facilities.
Markets change and adapt. Jobs aren't just deleted which permanently decreases the finite number of potential jobs.

>>57819985
>This gradual incursion of automation itself is a driving factor for people to pursue other fields. Stop hand holding lazy people and they will find work.
I don't know why you think the massive unskilled labor pool that relies on menial labor jobs, like the ones that will be automated in our lifetimes, are suddenly going to be able to find work doing more technical and involved things than they were doing previously.

They won't be able to go to university, because it likely won't be free, so they are barred from getting the necessary piece of paper to do many jobs.
They won't be able to go to technical school, because now they have no income to pay for it even if they wanted to go.
They will all flock to the welfare system, and it will collapse, because it wasn't designed to support the entirety of the working class.

>>57820362
US moved from industrial nation to service nation.

Now robots will do both servicing and industry work, people will move to what? Become batteries for the machine?

>>57819829
>just because we can means we should
The world would be a much more pleasant place with less people.

>>57820362
>I'm saying that the incursion of automation into a specific field is a gradual process,

Historically, technical progress has never worked like that. Once an innovation is made everyone rushes to exploit it. Once the first truck driver is replaced by a machine, they all will be very quickly

>>57820365
I propose Tramp Gladiator Games.

>>57820401
>environmentalist
kek

In any developed society, more people = stronger economy

>>57820431
>he hasn't been reading the thread
automation you dumb faggot, people are irrelevant

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>>57820362
>Most here are too dumb and too detached from reality to understand any of this.
I'm actually starting to think you're wrong about this one and we're the real idiots for getting baited this hard.

Just imagine

>menial and pointless jobs made obsolete by technology
>money becomes irrelevant
>elites lose their chokehold on society
>poverty eliminated
>humanity can focus all their efforts on colonizing the solar system
>overpopulation not an issue as we send millions to their deaths on uninhabitable planets

>>57820479
>we're the real idiots for getting baited this hard
There are some people who really believe in trickle down economics and "poors are lazy" mentality.

You can never be sure when its a retard or a troll.

>>57820495
It'll take a violent revolution for that to happen m8

The ruling elites would never allow

Why are you taking what Hawkings says at face value?
You do understand how much shit he's been straight up wrong about, right?
The guys a brilliant physicist, but that doesn't make him a genius in anything else

>>57820532
>that doesn't make him a genius in anything else
It literally does. He is a literal genius, not good at physics

>>57820495
Yeah, except this is more likely:
>menial and pointless jobs made obsolete by technology
>millions starve, die, armed revolt is put down
>middle class/more technical positions all think the people should have just worked harder in life and stopped being poor
>soon those jobs are replaced
>same thing happens
Only hope of a real revolt is when military men start being replaced by robots and leave the military only to find out that there is nothing for them to do.

>>57820525
They will simply be replaced by another ruling party.

>>57820554
>trusting democracy
All the retards will continue voting against their best interests

>>57820505
Could just be another edgy teenager who just read Atlas Shrugged

>>57820406
>Historically, technical progress has never worked like that

I gave two examples that prove your asspulled argument wrong.
Warehouse workers. Welders.
Companies do what they can afford if/when they can afford it. The machines themselves are not perfect human replacements, and they're not even remotely close to it. The most articulate welder on the market can't improvise, it can't do what a person does, and there is nothing coming on the horizon to compete against a person in anything more than stationary assembly line work.

Companies like Walmart will try to have an automated fleet because they can afford it. Smaller trucking companies won't start replacing their drivers for years.

>>57820393
>US moved from industrial nation to service nation.
This is a fallacious and intentionally narrow statement.
The US was once a majority agriculture economy. Despite transitioning to industry agricultural jobs still remain. Despite transitioning away from a manufacturing boom many such jobs still remain. These fields shrink in man power, but still remain massive areas of the economy, and still are a focus for innovation and wealth generation.

>>57820479
Nice bullshit post.

>>57820505
The majority of poor people are lazy. This is a fact.
The welfare class is lazy and willfully uneducated.

>>57820365
That's an oversimplification. I grew up in eastern europe, parents divorced, my mother getting welfare checks about as often as a real salary, and still I literally just finished my thesis in EE yesterday.

Even if things get worse, the market will adapt. It is very much in the interest of companies to have a large number of skilled workforce, not only to be able to hire people, but also to keep their wages in check.
They can influence both education and the economy in this direction.

>>57820406
Not the guy you're responding to, but still, while sudden changes in the past did happen, they literally never caused neither the entire collapse of civilization, nor the introduction of a UBI.
Necessity IS a driving force.

>>57817323
The income in such a socialist utopia will most certainly be dependent on the number of children, obliterating your argument

>>57820597
>I grew up in eastern europe
Then you have no understanding of how psychotic capitalist Americans think or what they will do.
>the market will adapt.
Yes, and here's how it will adapt: the companies that are replacing menial labor with robots will hire a very small number of people to oversee and "manage" these robots; they will not be hired from the working class. The now jobless working class will be stuck sitting on their asses waiting to die, so they will fight back, and they will lose because no one gives a shit about the poor.
>They can influence both education and the economy in this direction.
You really think corporations that take every opportunity to fuck their workers and exploit everything they can to increase profits are going to subsidize education for the displaced working class? Delusional.

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>>57820572
US went from agriculture to industrial to service orientated economy. Those jobs don't come back once gone.

>making food
>making stuff
>pleasing people
What is the next sector of growth for US labors? Can you think of something?

>>57820563
>all the retards will continue voting against their best interests
You say that as if there are ever benign, viable options presented and that even if the masses did do as you asked it wouldn't be a race to the bottom.

>>57820572
>this guy
Congrats, you found 2 jobs not completely replaced by automation yet

Completely proved me wrong. Go back to >>>/pol/ with your shit for brains arguments

>>57812319
But that means a universal income will be necessary causing working people to live of the government.

>>57820597
but m8, we've never seen technology that could put almost an entire work

>>57820645
If history is of any indicators, there will be use for people, just not sure what when robotic age happens.

Maybe slave wage labor for the very rich who want an army of humans for pet

>>57820641
Hey, 15 year old, stop making it obvious that you just finished reading the Communist Manifesto yesterday.

>>57820645
There are still around a million farmers in the US working millions of collective acres.
There are still tens of millions of manufacturing jobs.
Transition does not mean these demographics are entirely up ended immediately. The decline takes years. They shrink a few percentage points per year.

>>57820656
>I can't make an argument
>stop making me look like a child and go to /pol/!
Cute.

Both of those positions have had automated systems displacing workers for years. They're still nowhere near replacing all humans in the those positions.
Your entire argument is unrealistic fearmongering. Your entire argument is contingent above this automation revolution being rapid which prevents the work force from adapting.

Shitposting when you talked yourself into a corner is ample proof that you're too intellectually stunted to even attempt discussing this topic.
I'm honestly not even a little surprised that a low IQ shit eating liberal faggot retard is mindlessly arguing for a universal welfare system. Petulant children have always longed for the government to be a surrogate parental figure.

>>57820745
>Shitposting when you talked yourself into a corner is ample proof that you're too intellectually stunted to even attempt discussing this topic.
>I'm honestly not even a little surprised that a low IQ shit eating liberal faggot retard is mindlessly arguing for a universal welfare system. Petulant children have always longed for the government to be a surrogate parental figure.
>>>/pol/

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>>57820641
>Then you have no understanding of how psychotic capitalist Americans think or what they will do.
So if it's not about Americans, it doesn't matter?
>You really think corporations that take every opportunity to fuck their workers and exploit everything they can to increase profits are going to subsidize education for the displaced working class? Delusional.
>be tech company
>people can't afford education
>skilled workforce is small, wages are high
>this bad, profits low
How does this not make sense? At worst, they will import indians instead of helping out in education, but if globally nobody (or not enough) could afford education, they would definitely do something about it. It's quite literally in their best interest.

>>57820745
>Hey, 15 year old, stop making it obvious that you just finished reading the Communist Manifesto yesterday.
What a nice complete lack of an argument. How nice it must be to ignore things you don't like or cannot argue against and think an ad hominem will invalidate the statement.

>>57820745
btw even though you're a poltard I'll indulge you once more

>welding
Look at the auto industry
Look at Detroid
Automation did that

>warehouse workers
Look at amazon's warehouse which uses many fewer people than any comparable warehouse
Just wait 5 years for completely automated warehouses

>it hasn't happened yet so it'll never happen

>>57820774
>tech company is going to be affected by the automation of work
What? Tech companies require an education already, and there are enough non-working class people with an education available to staff them. They wouldn't be impacted by poor people having no jobs at all.

They aren't just going to start hiring more people and paying for their school.

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>>57820572
>The majority of poor people are lazy. This is a fact.
>The welfare class is lazy and willfully uneducated.

Ever heard of the "working poor"?

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>>57820671
Well yeah, but what about putting half a work, or, like 3/5 of it?

>>57812364
No thanks. Keep that in your country. People already have enough free time, not everyone wants to be NEETs like you guys.

>>57820848
>not everyone wants to be NEETs like you guys.
You're talking like you have a choice

>>57820822
There are no working poor. There are only working rich.

>>57820777
You didn't make an argument, you talked down to someone based on where he was from, and used empty emotionally charged terms like " psychotic capitalist Americans." Virtue signaling that you're a shitlib Commie.

Why is it that you underage Communist retards can never grasp what an actual ad hominem fallacy is? I didn't say your argument was wrong *because* you're clearly 15 years old.
I flat out insulted you for being a dipshit.

>>57820799
You're laughably stupid.
YOU take a look at Detroit, look at the auto assembly lines, now try looking at the current job market for skilled welders instead of pulling an argument entirely out of your ass.
Welding is a viable and decent pay career, still with massive benefits in a union. You cannot try to argue a position when you don't know a single thing about it, but that is exactly what you're doing. Matter of factly welders are not in any risk of being rendered obsolete despite assembly lines being automated.

Those automation systems used by giants like Amazon, they've been used in the auto industry for years as well. They aren't spreading to smaller warehouses at any sort of impressive rate. They're incredibly expensive and the price isn't coming down fast enough for any small business owner to care. The overwhelming majority of all warehouse space is still manned, and it will remain this way for years to come.
Automation exists in this field, and it is not displacing people overnight.

You do not have an argument.

>>57820662
So what?

>>57820890
>You didn't make an argument
Of course I did, but you are invalidating it based on /pol/ buzzwords and fallacies because you don't want to address it. Here, I will repost it for you to ignore again because you cannot argue:
>the market will adapt.
Yes, and here's how it will adapt: the companies that are replacing menial labor with robots will hire a very small number of people to oversee and "manage" these robots; they will not be hired from the working class. The now jobless working class will be stuck sitting on their asses waiting to die, so they will fight back, and they will lose because no one gives a shit about the poor.
>They can influence both education and the economy in this direction.
You really think corporations that take every opportunity to fuck their workers and exploit everything they can to increase profits are going to subsidize education for the displaced working class? Delusional.

I even removed the words that hurt your feefees.

>>57820890
>You're laughably stupid.
Great way to start an argument /pol/

>now try looking at the current job market for skilled welders instead of pulling an argument entirely out of your ass.
My friend dropped out of college to become a welder I know it's a strong market. Robots can't do the specialized welding humans can. Yet.

>They aren't spreading to smaller warehouses at any sort of impressive rate. They're incredibly expensive and the price isn't coming down fast enough for any small business owner to care.
I never said it happens overnight. I said once it happens, once the technology is ready, it will happen everywhere

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>>57820803
>and there are enough non-working class people with an education available to staff them

Literally not true. At least, not as many as they would like. The cheaper the workforce, the better. While they probably wouldn't subsidize education directly - aside from a few scholarships - they would lobby for cheaper education. The cheaper the education, the more people are available for the same position. As more people are available for the same position, their wages go down.

The fact that American universities don't give a fuck only means that the extra workforce will come from the outside. In my country, most STEM degrees are ridiculously easy to get into without having to pay for tuition.

>>57820952
>At least, not as many as they would like.
There are too many Americans with degrees for those positions, actually. Corporations don't want to pay them fairly, so they fire them en-masse and import Indians to replace a fraction of what they fired.

If Trump really does close the H1 program, then these companies will simply reduce their workforce. You think Intel is going to rehire those 20,000 people they replaced with 6,000 Pajeets?

>>57820909
Copypasting the same pathetic drivel won't make you any less retarded.
And lol at your trying to call me out for more imagined fallacies when you're demonstrably too retarded to recognize what an ad hominem fallacy actually is. Top notch shitposting.


>>57820940
This is the statement I made that caused you to sperg out:
>I'm saying that the incursion of automation into a specific field is a gradual process

You just made a post to say I was right. Good job.
The machines to replace this level of labor aren't anywhere close to existing. Imaging them at this point is pure science fiction, not to mention how long it will take them to be economically viable.

And yet you still keep shitposting because you can't make an argument. You proved yourself wrong, ended up agreeing with me, and you're so pathetically childish and autistic that you still want to disagree for the sake of disagreeing. Typical shitlib attitude to the very end.

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>>57821000
>ad hominem fallacy actually is
>Hey, 15 year old, stop making it obvious that you just finished reading the Communist Manifesto yesterday.

>>57820883
Not sure if you're baiting or not.

>>57821000
>caused you to sperg out
>calls me stupid while trying to have a serious agument

Nobody ever said it was instantaneous idiot. We've already spent decades developing automation technologies, we're close to reaping the benefits today. It's not my fault you're unwilling to look at the future

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>>57820990
>don't want to pay them fairly, so they fire them en-masse and import Indians
This is just the gist of what I said originally.

>If Trump really does close the H1 program, then these companies will simply reduce their workforce. You think Intel is going to rehire those 20,000 people they replaced with 6,000 Pajeets?
What, so they will just stop doing what they're doing because they're so married to the idea of being in the US? If conditions aren't right there, they will simply move. Unless there's an increase in native workforce, in which case they can get away by only paying pajeet-tier salaries.

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>>57821018
No matter what you do you just keep failing.
An ad hominem fallacy is exactly as I described. It would be me insulting you as a refutation of a point you presented. I flat out insulted you. An insult is not an ad hominem fallacy.
>You're wrong because you're gay, and gay people can't be right
Is an ad hominem fallacy
>You're a faggot
Is not an ad hominem fallacy


>>57821071
Bullshit. Your entire line of argument is derived from fearmongering of cataclysmic consequences of workers being displaced by automation when they can't transition to a new field. If your job is safe for a decade, two decades, three decades while this automation revolution is already taking place, then you're not in any danger. People have all the time in the world to get a degree, learn a trade, and get out of entry level positions.
The very notion of UBI is built upon fearmongering, the notion that these people will all lose their jobs, have nowhere to go, and be helpless without welfare. As if the time frame were dire.

>>57821145
>It would be me insulting you as a refutation of a point you presented
That is what you did.
>You are wrong because I am calling you a communist child.
/pol/cucks are the dumbest people alive.

>>57821161
You literally are proving that you're a dumb kid.
I flat out insulted you, I didn't address any of the nonsense in your post.

Keep crying about being rightfully called out as a Commie though, faggot. I bet you belong to an Antifa group on reddit too.

>>57821145
You're clearly not capable of understanding the bigger picture
There are no "other jobs" for people to take up. The amount of work needed building and maintaining machines is a fraction of what the machines replace

Stop putting words in my mouth, I never said anything was dire. Looking to, and planning for the future is not a bad thing

>>57821190
>invalidation of an entire argument by calling the other party a commie isn't ad hominem
I'm done replying to you. Consider suicide. Your IQ is probably lower than your heartrate.

>>57821233
Manufacturing jobs didn't totally erase agriculture.
Office jobs didn't totally erase manufacturing.

There is not a finite number of jobs in the country, just like there isn't a finite amount of wealth to go around. People move into different areas following market trends, they follow profits. There will always be opportunity for entrepreneurship, there will always be opportunity for new niches within the market to arise. Before the advent of the radio no one thought of working as a radio broadcaster. Before the internet and applicable platforms no one thought of being an eceleb, or reaching a global market with an at home business. The market changes and adapts. Humans are problem solvers and every new set of problems creates opportunity to be exploited for financial gain.

As I've stated: UBI is a poorly thought out fantasy.
What it amounts to is
>I can't figure out how to make money, therefore no one will be able to make money

All Commies are stupid subhuman shit

>>57821246
You don't need to keep proving how much of a retarded Commie faggot you are. I get it. Everyone gets it.

>>57821340
So your argument rests on imaginary jobs for these people that will be magically created by the free market

Nice

>>57821366
Those jobs are every bit as imaginary as the machines you think will come and take everyone's job

>>57821340
explain again how prosperity is created from enforced poverty.

>>57821404
Automation is already happening

Your imaginary jobs are not

>>57821340
(You)

>>57821366
Jobs have been getting automated for decades and yet unemployment in industrialised countries continues to go down. How the fuck is that imaginary?

It's simple, if we need less people to do boring, unpleasant, dangerous work then more people can be paid to work in media, science and the arts.

>>57821435
I can't tell if this is a joke or not.
New jobs are always being created, its a never ending process. The market doesn't cease and wait for trends to change.

>>57821465
because the chinese are willing to work for 10 cents an hour.

If they were demanding a western minimum wage they would've already been replaced by machines

>>57821478
I can't wait to see the magical free market create 200 million jobs.

>>57820597
>Not the guy you're responding to, but still, while sudden changes in the past did happen, they literally never caused neither the entire collapse of civilization

Maybe if you consider fascism to be fine and dandy.

Disgruntled white workers just voted a banana republic dictator onto office and you sit here wondering that the decay and eventual death of civilization is really a thing far away on the horizon. And this was just globalization, just you wait for full-blown automation.

>>57821496
If you worked in a horse stable in the late 1800s you'd be shaking like a shitting dog because you thought the internal combustion engine was going to make you homeless.
I summed you up perfectly
>I can't figure out how to make money, therefore no one will be able to make money

The fact that you have no imagination or ingenuity in your body whatsoever is the root cause here. You have a set of blinders on and you foolishly believe the rest of humanity does as well.


>>57821499
>TRUMP IS A DICTATOR
>LITERALLY HITLER OMG GUYS

LOL
Could you be any more dramatic?

>>57821564
Trump seems like a standard kleptocrat to me though

>>57821564
>>I can't figure out how to make money, therefore no one will be able to make money
>The fact that you have no imagination or ingenuity in your body whatsoever is the root cause here. You have a set of blinders on and you foolishly believe the rest of humanity does as well.

I have a good job writing software I'm not worried about myself any time soon you sperglord

I don't understand why you can't see the main issue (probably fetal alcohol syndrome) Robots will soon be better at almost everything than humans. Completely different to your scenario in the 1800s

The vast majority of people "have no imagination or ingenuity in your body" which is why they drive trucks, flip burgers or move boxes.
This argument is about them, there are no magical jobs that will be created for them, technological progress has rendered them obsolete in our society. If you understood capitalism you'd know this.

>>57821564
Trump is Reagan, which is worse.
At least Germany's economy recovered again after the damage Hitler's done.

>>57815916
Humans stopped designing computers a long time ago. These days most motherboard design and cpu design is done by computer not humans

>>57821564
>strawman

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>>57821594
Trump is the most socially liberal Republican to run and win in modern history. The fact that people equate him to Hitler or any other dictator is one of the funniest things imaginable. This is a guy who criticized the Clintons in the early 2000s because they weren't standing up for gay rights, and people think hes going to harm the LGBT special snowflake community. The man who said he supported gay marriage and got a crowd full of Republicans to cheer.

Trump is pretty basic nationalist.

>>57821635
>Trump is Reagan, which is worse.
Again, a stupid shit comparison. Reagan wasn't really conservative either, but he was also a complete puppet. He pushed an agenda that was on his desk from day one, doing what the money who got him elected wanted.
If Trump was going to be an establishment puppet Obamacare wouldn't be getting undone, we'd have a ground war against Assad and Russia in Syra, and lobbyists wouldn't be cracked down on.

>>57821620
>Robots will soon be better at almost everything than humans.
Imaginary robots, anon. Robots that don't exist yet, haven't even been prototyped. They're years away from being anything other than fantasy. Your concept of "soon" is fearmongering.
The reality is that job creation happens constantly, and it constantly adapts to the changing face of the market. This will never stop so long as people exist.

>>57821726
>Trump is the most socially liberal Republican
You are probable the most imbecilic poster in modern history.

>>57821741
You fell hook line and sinker for MSM brainwashing.
I bet you think Hillary actually cares about minorities too.

>>57821726
>The reality is that job creation happens constantly, and it constantly adapts to the changing face of the market. This will never stop so long as people exist.
FUCK OFF JESUS FUCK

>>57821726
>Robots that don't exist yet, haven't even been prototyped.
Does the automobile industry just not exist?
Was it just my imagination where hundreds of thousands were replaced by machines that do their jobs better and cheaper?

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>>57821741

>>57821755
>You fell hook line and sinker for MSM brainwashing.
Go read trump's tweetstream for nuanced commentary, hopefully he'll start tweeting to kill yourself.

>>57812336
Because the government is constantly fighting over what to spend money on. The government loves spending money. Spending money is how people get elected.

>>57821770
>heres a ms paint comic portraying u as dumb lol i win
cool kids finish school.

>>57812319
I think we've still got at least a generation or two before AI starts to really impede in on middle class jobs in a significant way.

>>57820880
I do.

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>>57821803

>being a salty liberal

>>57821832
not even a liberal but cool comeback tho

>>57820645
>using a percentage based graph

Are you retarded?

>>57819600
>>57819600
>Although many may become dependent on the system, it would be better than spending $160k per prisoner per year (new york city).
Prisons will also be automated. Don't just automate things that strengthen your argument.

>>57821756
Why are you so butthurt about this objective fact?
Did you even graduate high school? Have you ever taken a basic econ class at all?

>>57821766
Definition of fallacious nonsense.
All welders have not been replaced. Assembly line welders were replaced, by crude machines that repeat the same task thousands of times per day. Skilled welders are still in high demand. All machinists are in high demand as a matter of fact.
Automation, despite being ever more prevalent, has not replaced them.

There are no machines on the horizon to replace these people. There isn't a prototype, there isn't a concept, there is nothing. Only science fiction dreaming.

>>57819248
>The people who gets paid are the owners of the robots. With the unemployed without any money to buy/spend on stuff, the economy will collapse.
>
>If the unemployed are given bit of cash to spend, then the economy keeps going. The unemployed are given bit of hope, and thus continue to seek jobs.
Self perpetuating government run economies aren't a thing. Government doesn't create wealth or jobs. The wealth it redistributes comes from private hands. The jobs in actual government aren't "real" jobs generating resources or wealth and a benefit towards society. The same can be said about Wall Street/Hedge Funds etc.

>>57821942
Prisons would be better off if they euthanized violent offenders.

>>57822043
The government prints out money, it doesn't need to "take" money from private hands.

>>57821980
Human hands hardly touch an automobile in production anymore. Apparently you didn't understand that.

>>57822112
That's why it continually fails and the economy is stalled. Interest and currency are controlled by government not private hands. Banks are pointless currently. The market cannot adjust nor can the labor force at large because government redistributes this fiat currency and legislation to benefit sectors the traditional/free market would deem on the downward trend.

>>57822131
Your point is entirely irrelevant. The people replaced in auto assembly lines still have ample jobs available to them.
Automobile manufacturing was only one facet of manufacturing. Automation has not taken over all of manufacturing, and its not even remotely close to it.

As always you Commie retards cannot make a single argument.

>>57822112
The government doesn't print anything. The Federal Reserve prints currency, and every dollar they add is adding debt.

>>57822153
This is how and why you get large swathes of the labor pool ill prepared for changes because they aren't happening to sectors that should or shouldn't exist.

>>57822175
>have ample jobs available to them
Detroit didn't collapse after the automation and movement of automobile factories?
I was pretty sure Detroit became a shithole after that.

>>57822191
It was a shit hole in the 60's already. What kill automobile manufacturing was the marxist unions and government legislation like CAFE among other things.

>>57812319
Not surprised that Stephen Hawking doesn't understand Economics
If the production function is Y = zF(K,N) where z is total factor productivity (technology level), K is capital, and N is hours of labor: dY/dN = MPN = w, where w and equals the marginal product of labor in equilibrium.
If technology (AI, automation, whatever) increases, then z increases which implies that dY/dN increases, which impies wage increases.
This fundamentally means that the marginal product of labor increases when technology improves (i.e., you can sustain the same level of output Y with fewer people employed). However this also means via the substitution effect it becomes more expensive to not hire people. Output increases and labor increases via the substitution effect. The income effect means people want more leisure, which decreases labor. However since preferences are in per capita terms, reality actually has increasing population so more people are working now than before, while still individually having more leisure per capita. The labor force actually typically grows in z. The logic is just that it is expensive for firms not to hire when the marginal product of labor increases.

>>57822191
You keep fixating on this one area you know literally nothing about, and you make yourself look more hopelessly fucking stupid with every single post.
The workers left and took other manufacturing jobs. Manufacturing jobs that are still entirely unaffected by automation, because automation taking over a given field is a gradual process.
It is a slow trend in the market, one that people have already been adapting to for years.

The other thing people seem to miss is that child labor was a thing towards the beginning of industrial boom is due to wanting to survive. You couldn't afford to not have your children working just like on the farm at the time because we didn't generate the wealth and uplift the masses as of yet. Once this happened then the labor laws came into play. Parents didn't want the children to work but they needed to put food on the table. Same thing applies currently in countries today. Would you rather have air conditioning where you work or extra money towards putting clothes on you and yours perhaps food too?

>>57822225
I'm fixating on it because dumbfucks like you said and thought it would never happen, but then it did, and exactly what everyone with a 3-digit IQ thought would happen did. See any resemblance to your claims that "automation will never take over the menial labor market!! there aren't even prototypes of the robots!!"?

No, you probably don't, because you're a dumb /pol/cuck.

>>57822253
>I literally don't have an argument
>I keep making an ass out of myself and all I can do is mention the /pol/ boogeyman

Unions artificially increasing the cost of labor was seen by everyone first of all. You're trying to create a narrative that has nothing to do with reality.
Even still, to this day, manufacturing jobs are plentiful. Welders have job security. There is no mass produced sentient weldingbot that can replacing a human worker, and there won't be for a very long time.

Detroit autoworkers moved into other manufacturing jobs.
You literally do not have an argument at all. You just keep proving me right.

>>57822253
The unions and government legislation made automation in auto factories more profitable. Good luck finding cheap transportation brand new like you could back then too. You used to be able to buy a new car outright for 10 grand or less up until the 90's. It's only gotten worse. Now instead of the standard three year loan they offer up to 7 year loans and they even do title loans on old vehicles which are common nowadays. That's how much in the shitter things are. If we were more economically free with less government legislation and oversight we would be more prepared for the organic market shifts.

The argument here is very simple:

When unemployment hits 50%, who's gonna buy shit? If people have no money, what will happen to companies that sell goods? Who will pay for these goods, if there's no money to pay for them?

The thing with high unemployment is that it will affect everyone. I'm sure there's some cubicle monkey reading this thinking to himself "haha those dumb factory workers are fucked! BUT NOT ME!" The thing is, you're not gonna be able to compete with an advanced AI, so you will be unemployed.

But let's say, for the sake of arguing, that you do remain employed, and you make good money. Do you think the 50% will just let this go? In America of all places? If this happens, the first people who will be in danger will be those with capital, not the government. Even if the government fails to act, and it becomes their fault, Soros et co. will make sure to create a group that blames the capital holders for this, to take the heat off of the government. Now, as said before, YOU will not be employed because robots will be able to do your job better than you... so why would anyone want to start a civil war? This would cost WAY more than a negative income tax, and would lead to the loss of progress left and right. If you want to think with your gay ideology before the benefit of humanity, then I guarantee that you are the weakest, and as such, one of the most vulnerable in a high unemployment society. Good luck.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Pq-S557XQU

>>57822316
That and if the market gets to the point where it's as bad as that no one is going to spending money except on essentials. No investing nothing.

>>57822316
Humans need not apply is an absolutely stupid argument about automation.
The general public, politicians, and it seems even theoretical physicists, do not understand simple Economics.
The Neoclassical model predicts that automation will be incorporated just fine. The Neoclassical model also suggests that jobs are not a good thing, but rather a burden as we'd prefer to have more leisure at the current level of consumption. Which is obviously true.
I mean even fucking Labor Unions saw this a century ago, which is why in addition to demanding higher wages they asked for shorter hours (40 hour work weeks, for example).
But politicians, the general public, CPG Grey, Stephen Hawking, they can't see it.
Take an economics course.

>>57822370
>t. took an intro to economics class once

>>57822370
The Neoclassical model predicts that automation will be incorporated just fine.

Once again:

HOW WILL YOU COMPETE WITH AN ADVANCED AI WHO CAN DO YOUR JOB BETTER THAN YOU FOR A CHEAPER AMOUNT??

Just answer that.

>>57822383
Nice assumption and ad hominem m8
I'm majoring in Economics and Physics and considering a PhD in Economics.

>>57822408
Why do you sound like a Keynesian though?

>>57822282
I didn't read your post because you didn't make an argument in the first sentence.

>>57822370
>I mean even fucking Labor Unions saw this a century ago, which is why in addition to demanding higher wages they asked for shorter hours (40 hour work weeks, for example).
You think unions are a positive not a negative? What school do you attend?

>And therefore the middle class will have free time to do things they enjoy such as golfing and sun-baking at the beach. Chasing girls. That type of thing

This was the theory with computers and shit in the future. That they'd do so much of our jobs that people in the future (aka 90s and on) could work under 20 hours a week.

It will never happen in a capitalist society why the hell would someone pay anyones salary to the same amount to work half or quarter the time?

>>57822400
He can't. He's just going to call you a commie like he does to everyone proving him wrong.

>>57822400
So first of all, most people do not understand how AI works. They think it is fucking magic. It isn't. It just is really good at mining data really fast. Computers are stupider than humans, they are just faster and can process more.
One thing you have to understand about technology, AI, computers, etc is you have to understand what it can and can't do. More importantly in your case the can't part. I recommend Feynman's lecture on computing for you to educate yourself and rid yourself of assuming technology is magic.
https://youtu.be/EKWGGDXe5MA
In any case, even if AI can do a job better than you for a cheaper amount. This is not generally true. In part because of how there are decreasing returns to scale for capital and labor. There are constant returns to scale in both, but only if you increase capital and labor by an equivalent amount.
Obviously since automation only affects the supply side, firms will still have to hire people to ensure the demand side. In addition, since firms are workers are the same thing, profit to the firm will also be displayed in consumption. Because consumption = production in the one period model (you can have savings in multiple period models). Additionally, since you can produce more with less humans, if you aren't hiring more workers, then the wage will go up. This is because in order to profit maximize, the firm will purchase labor until marginal product of labor equals wage (or cost to firm).
So in short, even if say capital has almost constant returns to scale, wage will still increase ridiculously if firms aren't hiring more people. Even still, profit margins to the firm will still end up as income to the consumer.
>>57822428
Not an Keynesian. Keynesian economics has some true points but it encounters a lot of issues with the Ricardian equivalence theorem.

>>57822529
Thats an entirely different person, and not one of you shit eating childish morons proved me wrong on any point.

>>57822511
Unions are absolutely a positive thing. Only Americans are stupid enough to hate them.

>>57822517
>This was the theory with computers and shit in the future. That they'd do so much of our jobs that people in the future (aka 90s and on) could work under 20 hours a week.
>
>It will never happen in a capitalist society why the hell would someone pay anyones salary to the same amount to work half or quarter the time?
That's why a state run economy fails. Free market we would have had more markets sources sprout up than we initially did most likely. The state artificially retards the market even if intention are good. Innovation and new markets coupled with quite a bit of failure like a forest fire.

>>57822541
No. There is proof of AI being smarter than humans. Do not compare computers from the 90s to modern day AI.

So once again:

HOW WILL YOU COMPETE WITH AN ADVANCED AI WHO CAN DO YOUR JOB BETTER THAN YOU FOR A CHEAPER AMOUNT??

>>57822511
I don't see Labor Unions as good. Naturally though, it is in the labor force's self interest to form unions if they don't disband due to cheating the union.
Labor Unions are identical to monopolies or cartels. Naturally it is in the best interest of the monopoly to restrict output for the higher prices to have more profit.
I do not like monopolies in general, however if they naturally emerge in the free market, then I'm not too against them (even if they stop equilibrium output). Since Labor Unions are monopolies, the same logic applies. But this is a normative statement, not a positive one.

>>57822548
Unions are only positive up to a point. Voting for your own wage increases to the point that you cause your own replacement is not a good thing.

>>57822561
>There is proof of AI being smarter than humans
Thats cute.

>>57822561
You must've not read my entire post, even assuming you are right about AI, I refuted you.
Even still, computers from the 90's are not vastly different than modern computers. That is ridiculous. Again look at the stupid transhumanist that thinks technology is magic!

>>57822566
Yes, everything can be bad when it is excessive. The point is that a very large population of Americans that truly believe unions are evil and hurt the worker. They think single employee bargaining power is a real thing...

>>57822548
>Unions are absolutely a positive thing. Only Americans are stupid enough to hate them.
USA has a more diverse political and economic spectrum than Europe since the beginning of the 20th century at least. We'll agree to disagree on unions. Cunt.

>>57822563
Agree with you here. There is no such thing as natural monopolies.

>>57822572
I'm not talking about computers. I am talking about modern AI, so why the fuck are you showing me a video from the 70s/80s? This isn't 1985, so computers are much stronger than they are today. With quantum computing, things will grow even faster. There is plenty of proof of AI doing things better than humans, some within that very CGP video. Why are you denying this? These aren't prototypes, they're real. The only thing now will be to make them more cost effective, and for just ONE big business to implement them, and every other business will follow suit.

>>57822635
Your post just stinks of reddit popsci ignorance.

>>57822595
>Yes, everything can be bad when it is excessive. The point is that a very large population of Americans that truly believe unions are evil and hurt the worker. They think single employee bargaining power is a real thing...
Because it is. Women can arrange maternity leave with their employer and do not require special legislation if the employer doesn't already provide it. You come to an agreement with your employer over salary and raises before taking a job. This is how it works. Where this doesn't work is when the only game in town is a government subsidized utility or healthcare system that may or may not require union membership among other things. Then you are screwed by government, the compant itself, and the union itself.

>>57822661
So are there, or are there not robots that can perform tasks better than humans?
Do you think it's complicated to fill spreadsheets, move boxes around, operate a cash register, drive a truck, etc.?

>>57822635
AI isn't a thing lad. It will never be and if it does come to be. How do you know India or China won't get there first? They might decide to have it build loos to poo in for all we know. Chinese are evil and robotic so it might just decide to glass the planet. You walk into this thinking it's a good thing. You haven't lived life yet.

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>>57822708
>AI isn't a thing lad.

>>57822635
Do you even understand how AI works?
Yes, due to advancements in manufacturing, computers are much faster than in the past. They still work in the fundamentally same way that the original computers worked. Moore's Law is about to end, however as we reach the barrier of quantum tunneling through the transistor base.
Yes AI is a very good invention that can help with a lot of things and make human lives better. However you have to understand what it can't and can do. AI essentially is a technique in data analytics. The statisticians are constantly using data and having computers run complex data analysis to understand it. They run simulations, etc. to try to predict the future. It is key in meteorology, politics, sports, etc.
However there is still a human statistician behind overseeing the data collection, and output of the computer. In addition, statisticians are constantly testing which form of data mining is better, etc. It doesn't change the fact that the bell curve is still relevant in statistics, for example.
The models still get shit wrong. Weather isn't always accurate, Nate Silver got the US Presidential Election and Republican Primaries wrong, etc.
But you have to understand what the AI is actually fucking doing. It isn't thinking in the same manner as a human.
Take a chess engine for example. Deep Blue vs Kasparov, if you like.
What is the chess engine doing? Here I can show you Stockfish's source code if you like:
https://github.com/official-stockfish/Stockfish
Essentially it data mines a lot of chess positions and rates them. With humans controlling how it rates positions, or humans looking for the efficient mechanism for the computer to find the best weights in material, for example, etc.
It doesn't think heuristically like a human does. It compares tables. Statisticians also try to use computers to develop better tables, but this is just theoretical Computer Science, not magic. It is a computer doing computations at its core.

>>57822728
>thinks AI comparable to a human is a thing
>balls still haven't dropped
>voice still cracks with impotent boy rage
It's not no matter how many times you repeat it. You better find a god or sky deity and pray some white boys that live in the west get there first too. If that does not happen the world is doomed. Humans are tribal. AI will be tribal.

>>57812364
Sounds like a liberal I used to watch on YouTube, Secular talk. In one of his videos he said he thinks in the future we will all be assigned a robot to do our job for us and will receive its income like that. Leftists love communism but like to present it in a thinly veiled manner as capitalism.

>>57822671
>he thinks a large corporation gives a shit about a single employee
You aren't exceptional.
Your aren't irreplaceable.
There is no such thing as single employee bargaining power.


Oh, by the way, corporations have to give maternity leave most of the time, so your example is worthless.

>>57822786
>nihilist
>atheist
>plebbit user since forever
>drives a yaris
>lives with parents
>bernie tattoo
>manlet
You obviously haven't held a job or been in the workplace before or for any length of time. Assume you're in your teens or twenties. Your nihilism gives you away.

>>57822742
>The models still get shit wrong. Weather isn't always accurate, Nate Silver got the US Presidential Election and Republican Primaries wrong, etc.

Nate Silver was a moron who was trying to politicize a supposedly objective model.

>But you have to understand what the AI is actually fucking doing. It isn't thinking in the same manner as a human.
Take a chess engine for example. Deep Blue vs Kasparov, if you like.
What is the chess engine doing? Here I can show you Stockfish's source code if you like:

There's a difference between basic data mining, and more advanced machine learning. Everything you mentioned is still not as advanced as what's happening now, and what will very likely happen in the future.

Once again: YOU ARE SHOWING THINGS FROM THE PAST PRETENDING THAT THAT IS WHERE WE ARE NOW.

>>57822772
Kill yourself, you luddite.

>>57822783
It isn't communism because the business owners will still be the ones with the capital. The robots/workers will not own the means of production.

>>57817401
>These worthy will have shown their worth to society as no machine can replace what they do.
Interesting how the times change.

>>57822842
Stopped reading at greentext. Kill yourself.

>>57822852
>luddite
Go grab about five Wal-mart bags since one or two will have holes in the bottom. Once you do that go ahead and cover your head with those bags. Proceed to gas yourself.

I just want a god damn flip phone with a decent camera.

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>>57819642
>The more united the world becomes
heh

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>>57822958
you don't understand. the wealthy need to keep getting wealthy for the rest of us to prosper. those graphs are fabrications and free market capitalism is the solution.

>>57823073
It started trending that way when we moved away from free market capitalism and principles.

>>57823231
It also correlates with more socialist/communist/state control and we see this

>>57822852
>It isn't communism
so it's pseudo communism. the workers aren't the ones making money for themselves if everyone is assigned a robot.

what purpose of there is to have billions of non productive people with no job doing nothing other than fucking like hamsters and becoming more degenerate by the day?

I propose population control by means of sterilization or birth licensing. If the only way we can support overpopulation is by means of a broken communist-like system which will hurt innovation big time, we need to reduce the number of people. All they're doing is polluting the earth and driving up demand for resources like food and land.

It would be good if we had 3 billion less people on this earth.

>>57823231
i was being sarcastic you absolute retard. free market capitalists are subhumans. same with ancaps.

>>57812319
>right-wing
>automatically labelled populist
opinion discarded

>>57814812
Please tell that to rapefugees here in denmark with 3 wives and 18 children who expects to have everything handed to them

>>57823278
>I propose population control by means of sterilization or birth licensing. If the only way we can support overpopulation is by means of a broken communist-like system which will hurt innovation big time, we need to reduce the number of people. All they're doing is polluting the earth and driving up demand for resources like food and land.
You realize no politician with at least half a brain would seriously propose this, right? You need a dictator for that to happen.

>>57823370
overpopulation campaign, environmentally friendly, subsidized sterilization, propaganda campaign, less taxes for not having kids, etc

nothing is ever that direct in the world nowadays but population control will happen. it's the only plausible solution.

>>57822852
>he thinks advanced machine learning is much different than basic data mining.
No, it is very much related to even basic data mining. It is still basically computational statistics.
"Hurr durr things in the past are different than modern technology, despite the fact that modern technology is built upon the past, clearly modern technology is completely different and is in fact magic"
This is how you sound. Technology really hasn't changed all that much. There has not been a major paradigm shift in computing yet (as Computer Science is a relatively young field). Maybe quantum computers will be that paradigm shift.
Jesus fuck, you are so fucking ignorant it is absurd.

>>57822852
Clearly the UNIX philosophy and UNIX like operating systems are deprecated being from the 1970's and all.
Oh wait, most internet servers rely on it in the modern day. Shit.

>>57812435
>Star Trek style communism never happens. You always end up with North Korea.
hahahh
this

robots can produce produce, can milk milk, sweep the floors, prepare dinner, and manufacture more robots.

but in the end new human conforts will emerge that will require humans to provide it, im sure prostitution has come up on your mind, and butlery.

why would i give you free food from my 1000 acres of farm, maintained and defended by my army of robots at no expense of time or resources from me, if i can just use your hunger to force you to suck me.

im sure some landowning dinasty would just give free food, but soon the harkonen dinasty would just destroy them for making them lose their slaves.

human nature is to compete, thats how we reached a point where we can fling piles of metal away from our planets gravitational whell

>>57817229
>killbots are gonna be out of ammo.
what about the automated lead and copper miners and automated bullet manufacturers?

robots can produce more robots faster than humans can manufacture more soldiers, which is at least 15 years, and the bottleneck is the number of 13-43yo utherus avaiable, sprouting one new soldier or utherus per year

fuck, some flash developer should make a 4X game with this thematic

>>57823342

That is population control, they are just looking to exterminate white people from europe so they just have useful idiots as slaves

>>57824088
>>>pol

So many retarded teenagers posting in here. Go get a job you lazy schmucks

>>57826278
>job
those are deprecated

>>57826305
No, they're not. You should be getting your first job in your early teens, not early 20s, you worthless piece of shit

>>57826319
>he's a brainwashed capitalism guy

>>57826331
I can actually recognize the value in employment unlike sheltered cunts who've never had to work a day in their life

>>57826352
>he thinks there's value in working a deadend job that doesn't even contribute to society because you make so little money you effectively don't pay taxes

>>57826387
>purpose
>responsibility
>learning opportunities
>something to actually do in your free time

Go play more vidya gaymen you worthless fuck. If you think robots are going to magically become the altruistic caretakers of society you are in for a very rude awaking.

>>57826387
this, that fucking retard thinks he actually contributes to society by working.
kek

>>57826450
>>purpose
>>responsibility
>>learning opportunities
>>something to actually do in your free time
>he thinks these things are present in a deadend job

Mass unemployment will lead to revolution without some kind of basic income. Also the top of the food chain relies on people spending money. If people have no money to spend the whole thing comes toppling down. All this is assuming that the broken economy survives long enough to reach the levels of automation you're talking about.

>>57826466
>working the same job your entire life

I get that's an easy way to think about it when you don't get your first job until your under mountains of student loan debt

>>57826465
My job doesn't contribute shit to society but I live comfortably because of it

>>57826524
>he thinks i'm talking about college students
the people that are working deadend jobs can work a multitude of different positions, but all of them will be deadend, low wage shitfests that contribute nothing to society. "stepping stone jobs" don't exist, because there is next to no upwards mobility in american socioeconomic classes.

it makes no difference if you're a welfare leech or a walmart stocker. you contribute nothing either way, and there is no pride to be found in either of them.

>>57826524
Why can't you understand that automation will put shit tons of people out of work, and they won't find other jobs?

>>57826472
Higherups can still exist without money. It's going to be about honor and respect though and not fortune.

The middle class will respect the engineers creating robots because they're effectively giving them food for free.

The engineers will be happy to continue doing what they're doing because that's just how nerds are. They like doing sciencey shit even when they don't get paid for it.

>>57820848
It's not like a basic income keeps you from being able to work.

>>57826564
Plausible. But that is a rethink rather than a continuation of current structures.

>>57812399
>>57819197

/thread

>>57826550
You sound like a spoiled brat who's never had to lift a finger for anything. Hate to break it you you, but despite your judging of society as a whole singular thing, many people do find pride in their work no matter how it measures up on the societal contribution scale.

>>57826560
I do understand that, but the answer is not more handouts and debt. You have to at least try to incentive business growth so other jobs possibly become available.

A lot of you just need to admit you're lazy fucks. Just because you equate dead end jobs to welfare, it doesn't give you any moral superiority for wanting to get paid to not contribute a darn thing to others.

>>57826631
>many people do find pride in their work no matter how it measures up on the societal contribution scale
they shouldn't. they should realize what they contribute or do not contribute.
>You sound like a spoiled brat who's never had to lift a finger for anything
m8 i was homeless from 12 to 17.

>>57826450
>beginning your conditioning to willingly be just another tiny cog in the machine

>>57826639
Once a bum, always a bum it seems. That's too bad

>>57826689
>being conditioned to believe that being a worthless piece of shit is something people value in society

>>57826796
>can't make an argument
>insults the other party
lmao

>>57826796
>insult him for being to rich
>insult him for being too poor seconds later
are you retarded or something?

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>>57826807
The argument is your dream world of robotic automation with UBI will never, ever happen in the United States. You know what happens when people have nothing to do? Violence and warfare, which coincidentally goes hand in hand with all the crying about overpopulation. Only bad things will happen, but you do not realize that. And that's to say nothing about the ownership of all this technology moving forward. Keep dreaming

>>57826886
He's a worthless to society, it doesn't matter how much money he has. And now he wants to get paid for it

>>57826919
all i was arguing is that deadend jobs are worthless to society and you shouldn't feel any pride for working them.

>>57826947
That is also something I would disagree with. The vast majority of employment provides no direct benefit to society, but on the individual it can. Some people will go mad otherwise

>>57826983
>The vast majority of employment provides no direct benefit to society, but on the individual it can.
At the very least, it provides tax income. Deadend working class jobs provide no tax income because the workers do not make enough to be truly taxed, and receive everything they paid into taxes back in their return.

>>57826947
Pride comes from value. People value things differently. Dead end job is a subjective term.

>>57827022
This. I know that my current position is dead in the long term, but I derive value from being able to help people solve problems. Nothing is constant, but working a variety of jobs is the best way to determine what you value in the workplace and give you direction moving forward.

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no dude one word ownership.
he who owns the botts will live well the other 98 % of us will die of starvation.

>>57827140
>>57827022
then you're cucks.

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>>57827415
>earning my keep
>wanting Jerome to fuck my wife

>>57827397
we need to seize the means of production

>>57821741
You idiot Cruz used to bash trump for being pro trans rights. He literally told Jenner she could use whatever bathroom in Trump Tower. He's a democrat in Republican clothing

What a hilarious bastion of ignorance this thread is...

As processing power increases, the complexity of tasks that neural networks will be able to perform will also increase. This is not limited to assembly lines or driving cars or working warehouses. Design jobs will be displaced, as a computer will be able to take a set of user inputs and create a spectrum of results for the user to choose from. Software like Sketch-a-Net will eventually be reversed so the input isn't a drawing, but rather what the user wants drawn.

As for things like large scale industrial assembly lines, the main reason they're so expensive is that most of them can only produce one item. Again with machine learning, a general purpose assembly line could be re-purposed in a matter of minutes without needing retooling since the software would be created on a dedicated software development line. There's no need for a human to do prototyping either, since machine learning software running simulations will be able to quickly zero in on what may not be the best design, but a design as good as most human beings would come up with.

I think the fundamental misunderstanding here is the scope of what machine learning can actually do. It is limited only by the complexity of the fitness algorithms. So yes, there will always be human oversight, but it only requires one expert (probably a small team, actually) to create and maintain a piece of software that could displace millions of jobs. And again, there will likely be human oversight at the work site, but that person will not need to be an expert. The software interface could be made to respond to conversational language, just like Siri, Cortana, and the Google Assistant do, so some jackass could tell the welding arm "yeah, that strut needs to be reinforced. No, that's not enough, it needs to be stronger. Yeah, that looks good" and the arm could produce a weld as good as most human beings are capable of.

>>57830580
continued...

The cat is out of the bag, as far as software goes. The limitation now is developing the tools for use with the software. These will be cheap, since they will be general purpose and very likely self-replicable, unless lockouts are placed on the machines in order to create artificial scarcity. Given how low the costs of production will be driven by this technology, I expect the only limit will be processing power. So ultimately, whether or not we see massive job displacement in our lifetimes will hinge on how cheap the required processing power gets.

When this does happen, because it will, it's important to understand that human productivity will not decrease. Productivity will actually increase massively, which means the value of productivity will decrease massively. This is why UBI will be required. It's not about giving handouts to lazy people, because the likelihood is that these people will actually be doing something productive, but the value of what they're doing won't be much since far more people will be capable. It's also important to understand that UBI will only be temporary, since automation will mean that filling basic human needs will be trivial.

Sorry, your precious capitalism is going to implode when production is readily available, cheap, and requires little time commitment.

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>>57832247