Do you think programming and basic software engineering should

No because that would mean more people for me to compete with.

>>57644199
This.
It would turn into a McDonald's job.
>Oh, you know C++? So does everyone else. What else do you bring to the table?

I like my money.

Programming is not for everyone. I think we can improve our math education though by focusing more on logic from an early age and less on arithmetic. There's no reason a high school math class shouldn't be able to do simple proofs.

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yes and no

I mean, programming is math.

It would be nice if we taught kids functional programming practices in conjunction with other topics in mathematics, but showing them how to jockey Python libs and press X to JSON is a waste of time and just churns out more shit programmers making shit software imo

>>57645293
> programming is not for everyone
> math is

>>57645293
i think this is true. i want to add that i read someplace that for a long time it was sort of assumed that most people just weren't cut out for reading. like regular old reading that you and i are doing right now. this was before the printing press and shit, but the point is that poor exposure to it, obviously no good pedagogical insight into how to teach the shit, etc... just made people assume that it was just something that people who are inclined to the activity could ever become competent at.

fast forward to today and finland has a 100% literacy rate. clearly, it's doable.

i think "math literacy" isn't quite there yet, and i'm not sure why some basic understanding of math is so much harder to achieve than basic literacy, but i suspect teachers (and society maybe) have sort of given up on math as something that everyone should get, and it's becoming socially acceptable to just not know that much math (if any). if we can shore up math education and push programming earlier (and, importantly, figure out a course plan to get everyone to understand it rather than the sort of people who grow up to be really into it, like us), then i think it's reasonable to plan to have programming education as part of a middle school and high school curriculum.

>>57645319
Yes it is. Not everyone needs advanced math, but they certainly need to learn the logic and critical thinking involved in problem solving that comes with math. It's kinda hard to design a good math curriculum though since the ideal of asking simple questions about the world around us and exploring how to answer them and be reasonably confident in that answer quickly leads to questions that are more difficult than belongs in required education.

>>57645360
>"math literacy"
the word you're looking for is numeracy

>>57644187
Yes, but boomers will never allow it.

They want kinds to become nurses, not entrepreneurs.

>>57644187
We had visual basic before and everyone just copied their work. We also had a logic and reasoning class.
I've forgotten most of what I did back then

>>57644187
No, fuck this, I don't want to work for minimum wage because every idiot knows how to do it

No, but every school should give students the opportunity to learn scripting.

Just as much as plumbing, or gardening. Everyone has pipes in their homes, right? A lot of people have a yard.

Except basic plumbing will not teach you enough to fix your own boiler. You will still lack the tools at home to fix your own pipes. Most people whom try without a sufficient amount of practice, will just fuck it up even more.

Most people have a yard, plant grass and mow it once every few weeks. They don't spend time on growing specific beautiful plants or vegetables.

Programming is not for everyone.

This entire "everyone should know how to code" stems from webdev spergs wanting to jerk their nodejs in others' faces. EVERYONE SHOULD LIKE WHAT I DO. Fucking autismoes.

By the time these programming classes get rolled out, companies will already be outsourcing everything to India because their mediocrity is a lot cheaper than locally sourced mediocrity.

>programming is math.
no it's fucking not lol

>>57646837
>no it's fucking not lol
Computer science is math, and programming is just applied computer science.

>>57644187
No. it's a trade and we don't teach trades in high school.

>>57646951

Yes, we do.

I teach engineering in my school's CTE department. We absolutely teach trades, and I teach high school in a tiny cowtown.

>>57646970
So you agree it's a trade to be taught by labourers to ignorant hillbillies.

>>57644187
In a society with sewage does everyone need to be a plumber?

>>57647037
I'm sorry, /g/. Let's get back to photos of our pipes.

>>57646853
Plumbing is applied physics. You can either have a secret club and no one cares about computing or participate in a market where labour gets cheaper over time. There are no special rules for programmers, sorry kid.

>>57646837
This organism gets it.

>>57644187
Yes. Because it's how you get things done.

>>57644187
>Do you think programming
yes
>and basic software engineering
no

also
>>57645293
>>57646837
there is ... a lot of potential to improving math education in school

>>57645387
sounds more like being able to recognize numbers and count etc

>>57644187
yes, insofar as basic mathematical concepts are covered. basic programming is a great application of algebra and teaching those two things to kids in tandem would be extremely beneficial.

>>57645360
I know countless people who can barely read

You underestimate the stupidity of the average person

I live in a first world country

>>57644187
No
Job market in computing and engineering has steeped off immensely
Even if you WANT to go into the bussiness, no matter your qualification, you arent getting the job
Too many people already as well

>>57645360
Basiclly
In schools you get four kinds of students for math
Dipshits who cant and wont try, always also dipshits everywhere else
Kids who are naturally gifted and math just "clicks"
Kids who actively have to study to undersrand it at all
And kids who are gifted in other areas , but math is either insanely difficult at times but incredibly easy at others

>>57646837
Shop class exists. Getting the basics of tool-using and repair work is important. Agriculture could be a decent class as well desu.