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/fit/ here, why does /lit/ love Slavoj Zizek so much? Isn't

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/fit/ here, why does /lit/ love Slavoj Zizek so much? Isn't he a commie?
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>>23484
communism works, my friend :)
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being a communist is the most /lit/ thing you can be
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>>23498
never browsed /lit/, are you guys all commies?
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>>23530
everyone who reads good books is
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>>23498
It doesn't.
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>>23484
he is a cummie
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>>23530
No.
Better dead than red.
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L E F T A C C E L E R A T I O N I S M
>>
He's simply reactionary. You can tell by how he says in an interview that he has a poster of Stalin right when you enter his place just because it pisses people, especially Marxists, off to see it. Plus, he's not explicitly a "political philosopher." He just uses it as an accent to his physiological and social theory.
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>>23484

He probably would have been a party member if he'd been born earlier. Modern Marxism isn't very specifically about communism any longer. It's still leftist generally, but it's rather more analytical and trying to understand what the fuck is happening. As with many ideological-laden discourses, some of it shit and some of it is golden.
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>>23609
that's not real communism, that's crony communism
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>>23575
someone hasn't read a book
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>capitalism doesn't work because people are corrupt
>but don't worry dude communism will

>it's not fir that the factory owner makes money off of my labor even though he has to pay for marketing, distribution, raw materials, machinery, etc.
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>>23575
Maybe because they read so many books that they have lost touch with reality
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>>23919
>that they have lost touch with reality

Isn't that the goal? It is for me.
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>>23530
Yes, HEIL STALIN.
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>>23778
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gommunism will be inevitable with the increasing tech ceiling
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>>23498
*kills
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>>23522

>listen, pleash, dunt be afriad, i'm not crazy
>sniff
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>>23778
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>>23688
The poster is post-ironic. In other interviews he says we shouldn't let the negatives and brutalities of Stalinism cause us to throw away the positive aspects of its praxis so easily and carelessly.

>>23530
I'd say a decent majority here are some variety of Marxist, yeah. Still a much better ratio than you'd find on any other humanities board on the internet---they generally only have one Nietzschean or Monarchist or whatever, we have dozens!
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>>23484
>Isn't he a commie?
You say that like it's a bad thing
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>>23967
That is what anime is for
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>>23498
>communism works
Top zozzle
Next, you're gonna tell me crossfit is superior
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>>23484
He's funny sometimes. There's also this one cap of a theoretical Slavoj comparing 4chan to a macabro Yugoslavia or something which was pretty good.
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>>24273
Gotchu covered fampai
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>>23484
Slavoj is actually a very /fit/-friendly philosopher. His views on ideology and reality are rather easily digested, in part because he's hilarious and in part because he has no difficultly translating between impenetrable high register and relatively readable low register.

Check out some of his editorials, for instance:
http://www.newstatesman.com/culture/culture/2012/08/slavoj-%C5%BEi%C5%BEek-politics-batman

Also, when he talks about sommunism and you talk about communism, it's two different things.
>>
Pure ideology meme is always a great way to shoo /pol/fags and is a good food for thought
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>>24428

>Prospertarian

What is this?
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>>23484
he pretends to be a communism, so he say far right critiques of liberalism to moron college kids, who then cheer him on.

he has actually got into trouble for literally plagiarizing racist / far right websites.
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>>24258
communism is basically the crossfit of political ideology
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>>24128
>they generally only have one Nietzschean

That's because they don't really understand Nietzsche.

He was completely down with self-improvement, but failed not to imagine lots of people could be. He would have totally been into CrossFit. And he would have let you known it.
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>>23484
It's a meme, nobody on /lit/ takes him serious or even reads him
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>>23609
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>>24531
>>Prospertarian
>
>What is this?

It says propertarian, not prospertarian.
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>>25107

God, I can't even fucking read.
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>>24999
woah a couple dozen irrelevant shithole states that barely existed
really makes you hmmm..........
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>>23498
You must be stupid or something
>>
someone post the pirates shop
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>>25221
Sure beats listing the same country twice and a meme leader and his irrelevant satellite
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>>24347
>why cant 4chan be a serious depression discussion forum
Because no one actually likes being depressed. Faggot.
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>>23919

This guy gets it
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Communism is fahckin j00cey m8
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>>23498
>basing your ideological positions on what "works"
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>/lit/ is a commie board
aw come on i was starting to like you guys..
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>>24999
>rosa luxejew
hmmm i wonder who is behind this post
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How many calories are in the trashcan of ideology? Does it have decent macros?
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>>27075

The humanity-related boards are obviously going to be commie/socialist. /his/ is definitely far left leaning. There's a reason most smart people end up on the Socialist side of politics.
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>yfw you found out Jeff Mangum likely met Zizek through his wife
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>>25182
Stay here on /lit/. You will learn
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>>24190
>immanetizing the eschaton
Yeah how could that possibly go wrong...
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>>23484
communism is good. slavman is funny
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God I wish /pol/ and /lit/ had merged. The Commies meeting the Nazis would've been hilarious.
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>>24370
By /fit/ friendly are you calling us stupid? Cause it sounds like you're intimating that we're a bunch of dumb fucks.
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>>24999
>a bunch of literally whos
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>>23498
There never was real communism, closest thing, that worked, was Yugoslavia, and nothing else.
Best thing is autocracy, ruled by an intelligent and capable leader.
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>>27126
Because once you get far enough into masturbatory groupthink you become detached from reality?
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>>23484
he is based as fuck
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>>23530
no, we're all /pol/-ites
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>>27126
>/his/ is definitely far left leaning.
no its not /his/ shits on facists and communists frequently
>There's a reason most smart people end up on the Socialist side of politics.
good one
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>tfw lit is literally commie
well, reading too much fantasy must really make you delusional
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>ancraps are allowed to say "BUT THAT WASN'T REAL CAPITALISM THAT WAS CORPORATISM with s slap on the wrist

>When commies do it everyone loses their minds

Why the double standard tho senpai
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>>27247
So like a nationalist socialism with some sort of leader?
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>>27126
Is it because they spend their entire lives in university and nose deep in books, grow up in better off neighborhoods, not work a physical job and never having to experience the world of the common man?
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>>27298
ancaps are retarded too (though not as retarded)
they just have funnier memes
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Listen to his videos. He is smart and funny, even if you are not a gommunist. In fact the reason Chomsky doesn't like him is because he's funnier.
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>>27298
We didn't kill 100 million people in the name of our ideology in the past 100 years.
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>>27247
>yugoslavia
get out you trash, marksuccs are ancap shills
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>>27300
Yes. Patriotism is the best way to get the people all happy, and when you present a threat (example: Jewish people in Nazi Germany), it's even better, people work together.
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>>27365
>TFW commie scum agrees Hitler did nothing wrong
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>>27338
>he thinks capitalism hasn't killed millions

http://www.petersaysstuff.com/2014/05/attempting-the-impossible-calculating-capitalisms-death-toll/
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>>27359
Both USA and USSR sucked Tito's balls, because he was in the middle, promising them a lot, and milking them in the process.
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>>27320
I used to think this
when bitcoin was only a dollar
the ancaps make everyone else look like babies now
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>>27393
I'm not a communist, and I agree that Hitler did nothing wrong.
By the way, Hitler wasn't really the brains of the operation, he was a piece of shit on Goebbels' shoe.
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>>24999
I like how they deleted Hugo Chávez from that picture.
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>>27401
>impling capitalism is a ideology and not people trading stuff
most of these deaths were caused by imperialism, colonialism and jews
fuck off
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>>27393
One more thing, Trump is a sort of a genius. He knows how to use propaganda, and he uses it well. And people who voted for Clinton were objectively idiots.
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>>27401
>every single war and disaster in non-communist countries (and also wars in communist countries where anti-communists are on one side) are the fault of capitalism
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>>27126

You're mistaking mooching off of people while you spend your life escaping in books for being smart. There is a reason people like you and marx, who have never worked, end up on the socialist side of politics.
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>we have uncovered the iron laws of historical progress
>every single country we founded has failed for bullshit contingent reasons

Embarassing. At least liberal progressives have a reason to feel smug about being on the "right side of history". But Marxist theory has to change every 10 years to keep the appearance of being "scientific" after how much wrong they are every single time.
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>>27432
>I like how they deleted Hugo Chávez from that picture
haha, here in brazil the lefties used to suck hugo chavez and maduros dick
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>>27298
honestly it's still a pretty bad argument no matter who uses it and this is coming from a commie. What people mean when they say "look at this shitty socialist country" is "socialists took control and everything went to shit." The answer here is not to say that the country they bring up is not a true socialist country, the answer is to point to where you disagree with the actions of these so-called socialists in terms of their actions and program and explain how you think these actions you mentioned are responsible for shitting up this country.
>>27439
>impling capitalism is a ideology and not people trading stuff
wait what's the argument here? I see none. also:
>capitalism has nothing to do with imperialism, colonialism, or jewish bankers
:^)
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>>27488
>we have uncovered the iron laws of historical progress
not too many lefties actually believe that tho
such people do exist tho and are indeed kek worthy
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>>27501

socialism is absurd because there is no centralized body capable to properly deciding what should be made and how it should be priced. The amount of information and computing required to make those decisions accurately can only be done through he combined power of all people selfishly competing. You need the processing power of all human brains since there isn't a computer or person that can replace this. that is what you spergs will never understand.
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>>27430
I'd argure it was Martin Bohrmann, and I certainly don't think its fair to say he was a POS as he was running the outfit but at least you're saying you're not a commie.
>>27458
He really is, and the best part is he's convinced his enemies he's a moron. When he announced I knew his victory was pretty much a sure thing because he's been operating on a whole different level than almost all other politicians.
>>27401
I said people killed for the sake of the ideology, and as communists aren't people that number gotta be pretty low, dunnit?
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>>27488
>At least liberal progressives have a reason to feel smug about being on the "right side of history".

They haven't felt smug for the last 20 years, It has literally become more electable to describe yourself as a theocrate than liberal or progressive in most of Europe.
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Guys, play nice, this is /fitlit/ not /mlpol/
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>>27496
PSOL literally deleted the article they had on their website about them supporting Maduro in the last elections.
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>>27501
communism is literally jewish ideology, imperialism and colonialism is something intrinsic a bad part of humanity (capitalism was not even a thing when they started)
also, communism advocates for one international revolution(aka be like me or die), things like that i will never support
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>>23484

he's a commie but he is not delusional, he recognizes communism failed and the modern left is lost and failing

>>23498

zizek disagrees with you
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>>27401
>he thinks capitalism is a comprehensive ideology
>he thinks millions are comparable to hundreds of millions
>he thinks capitalism existed before capitalism existed

Go back to /leftypol/.
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>>27562
Is that why liberal progressive parties won the elections in Holland, and now a major liberal and progressive will win in France?

I don't even like them, but I have to recognize they are winning, while their cousins, the commies, have to content themselves with the universities.
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>>27548
> there is no centralized body capable to properly deciding what should be made how it should be priced
wait so your idea of socialism is essentially just capitalism except a small group of gubberment fellas plan it all? I mean if that were socialism I guess I'd agree with you that it sucks, but why would anyone advocate for that? Do you honestly think that's what Marx envisioned? stop being a classcuck and read, boy.
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>>23498
april fools! :^)
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>>27604
id rather take my little poly than lefty pol desu
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>>27646
And yet in both of those countries the extreme far right is pulling record numbers of votes. Brexit won, Trump won, Abe won, Duterte won, and in every european nation the far right is growing by leaps and bounds. Feel free to be self congratulatory about leftists winning in countries where it is basically illegal to be too far right wing and no nationalist has won in decades. There's a storm coming and you can't stop it. You don't need a weatherman to know which way the wind blows.
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>>27699
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>>27663

that is the definition of socialism you pleb, put down the fantasy and learn about economics.
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>>27646
>Is that why liberal progressive parties won the elections in Holland

What timeline are you posting this from? there isn't even a liberal progressive party in the top 3, D66 are centralize fucks that haven't contributed politically since 94, Labour and Socialist vote collapsed.

Baudet actually has fucking seats in parliament, that should be really worrying.
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>>27728
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>>27704
The problem with lefty/pol/ is that it's just not funny. As an enlightened supersmart centrist, I don't care for either, but at least /pol/ is kinda amusing, lefty/pol/ is just smug and annoying.
Maybe it's because I perceive /pol/ as either retarded or self-aware and therefore amusing, while I perceive lefty/pol/ as educated but not self-aware at all, so just annoying.
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>>27663
anyone who relies as heavily on dialectics are marx does is a brainlet tbqf
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>>27763
I'm legitimately bewildered people are only just discovering that outside of a 2~ hour comedy set leftists aren't funny, there's a reason conservative talk radio shows do 3-6 hours shows while liberal talk radio shows last 1 hour.
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>>23893
>capitalism doesn't work because people are corrupt
said no socialist ever
>it's not fir that the factory owner makes money off of my labor even though he has to pay for marketing, distribution, raw materials, machinery, etc.
Yeah, he DESERVES those millions.
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>>27748
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>>27763
That's because /leftypol/ is for lefty politics, while /pol/ is for being a contrarian fuck with Reddit memes (and also right-wing politics). /pol/ has the legacy of once being funny, but /leftypol/ just has butthurt.
>>27865
Hardly a revolution. It was a coup by any definition.
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>>27865
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>>27912
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>>27640
why would he be a communist if he doesn't think it works?
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>>27933
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Anon I don't know what you think you're doing but this guy is not exactly a Stalinist.
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>>27947
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>>27947
That's not what happened at all you stupid faggot.

Who wrote this? Send them to siberia /his/.
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>tfw Lenin betrayed the revolution more than Stalin ever did
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>>27943

because it's a noble goal regardless and there's still something to be said about historical materialism

he doesn't endorse previous nor current attempts at communism and defends the main focus of the left today should be figuring out the current system i.e. globalist capitalism
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>>23778
THAT'S THE INEVITABLE RESULT YOU FUCKING INTELLIGENT MORON.
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>>27977
This. Stalin was left to clean all those jews in cheka and central comitee that lenin brought to power
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And, just to tie us back together with some good old fashioned Reddit hate
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>>27763
it doesnt help that all their memes are just edits from /pol/
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>>28074
In no wise is this true. Explain yourself.
>>
>when leftists try to assuage their butthurt by desperately making their own edits of images
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>>28109
>when /pol/tards judge political ideologies by how funny their memes are
>>
>>28001
The joke is that Marx actually lost what, two children to starvation? It was partly because he wouldn't work, but one can't say he wasn't screwed at some point.
>>
>>28126
Its 2018 m8

Memes are all that matter now.
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>>28100
>>28109
You know this >>27912 meme started as anti-AnCap right
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>>28149
shut up
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>tfw I'm a College Republican with actual ties to big political players in my state and a bright future once I graduate
>tfw a combination of my seething hatred for all the bourgeois champagne """""""""""socialists""""""""""" I hang out with combined with /lit/ is turning me into a Marxist
pls help guys
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>>28170
Read Stirner.

Realise your ambitions were always shit anyway.
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>>28149
>started as anti-AnCap
it's a picardia you dunce
>>
>>28186
>book uses logic
spook
>>
>>28193
And it was first made political by colouring half of it black and making fun of ancaps.
>>28199
Correct.
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>>28065
Yeah none of those groups were innocents.

This is the problem with leftypol memes, they're shit because you people totally lack originality. I mean this is the most half assed rip off of a decent meme. Even if for the sake of argument I granted that any of those leaders killed innocent people for the sake of capitalism (which is pants shitting retarded), the numbers just don't compare. The pinkertons killed dozens, a couple hundred tops, maybe a a few hundred thousand died in the Belgian Congo, a few thousand died each in Iran and Chile. That doesn't approach what Mao, Stalin, or Pol Pot did by several orders of magnitude. And while the later explicitly killed for ideology, none of the former did.

Y'all think we're dumb meatheads but really you're so wrapped up in post modernism truth and common sense got thrown out the window a while ago. The great test of an ideology is not if it is intellectually coherent, but if it is successful IRL. Capitalism is the greatest driver of human wealth and progress ever. Communism killed a hundred million and then collapsed from its own internal contradictions.

Res ipsa loquitor, faggot.
>>
>>23530
>>23575

>Read all those books
>Learn nothing
How sad
>>
>>28231
>Yeah none of those groups were innocents.
Ah, classic apologia.

Are you seriously going to defend the kulaks?
>This is the problem with leftypol memes
t. intellectual

The rise of capitalism coincided with a huge dive in living standards and life expectancy. But that's just a coincidence.
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>>28126
The thing speaks for itself. If you can't make people laugh, you're probably wrong.
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>>28186
>As it turns out the pill is empty.
>>
>>28126
You realize that winning people over by making fun of the other guy is a strategy going back thousands of years right?

>he claims to be educated
>he takes himself very seriously
>he gets bullied into oblivion by shitposting bullies and everyone laughs at him

>>27882
>once being funny
>this fag thinks that bullying shia lebouef so hard he went to a secret cabin in finland to hide wasn't funny

kys
>>
>>28170
Quit hanging out with commies, listen to Rush Limbaugh and read some Ann Couter or something.
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>>28210
>And it was first made political
goalposts, etc.

>by colouring half of it black and making fun of ancaps
so it's a meme copied to be used by leftists to make fun of other leftists?
wow I'm really btfo now

>>28254
>Ah, classic apologia.
Try to start a violent revolution, get shot.
Talk shit, get hit.
>>
>>28231
Also, several million died in the Belgian Congo. It's actually much worse than Pol Pot. And you don't appear to know what communism is. I'm anti-communist but people like you make me wish I wasn't.
>>28310
You copied and edited a left-wing meme, friend :^)

I don't think you know what ancaps are.

So you're not counting deaths from the counter-revolutionaries now?
>>
/fitlit/ was a mistake

/fit/izens are still stuck in the /pol/ age.
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there's not enough trashcans in the world to contain all this ideology
>>
>>28337
you're trying too hard

>I don't think you know what ancaps are.
anarchist, your own ilk

>So you're not counting deaths from the counter-revolutionaries now?
nah, you don't get to start the blood flowing and then cry when it's your turn
>>
>>28264

Ah, a fellow advocate of affectocratic epistemology. So pleased to meet you.
>>
>>28354

>muh objective "progress"
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>>28254
In that image you've got communists killed by Pinochet listed as "innocents" despite their desire to gulag their opponents.

The Congo Free State was the result of tribes using power given to them by the government to kill their rivals and therefore has very little to do with capitalism. It's basically just an earlier version of what happened in Rwanda in the 1990s.

In Iran, again, communists tried to establish a communist state and got killed for it.

Only the first one where Frick had workers killed for striking actually fits the whole "omg capitalism is bad" theme you've got going on there.

The reality is you always wanted to kill us, now that we realize that and counter you you cry out and demand mercy.
>>
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Daily reminder that commnuists are anti-intellectual, pseudointellectual edge lords that resort to arguments that rely on rhetoric rather than evidence (seize the meme of production!, alienation of the x, etc,etc...)

Commie manlets, when will they learn?
never
>>
>>23484
He's funny. He's an intellectual who tells dirty jokes and triggers leftists who take themselves too seriously.

I would so love to see him on Joe Rogan.
>>
*sniff*
>>
>>28254
Pinkertons killed commie jew labor agitators, doing God's work. Leopold brought civilization to the niggers, who are rarely innocent and never people. The Shah was killing communists and religious nutjobs, again doing God's work. And Mi General was throwing commies out of helicopters defending his nation. Allende was a piece of shit and he got what he deserved.

Yes, because I am a kulak and proud to be one. Kulaks built society. Kulaks are the proletariat you profess to be so supportive of; your petit-bourgeoisie fatass is so condescending to those you proclaim to champion. Funny how its the blue collar workers and veterans in this country are the most right wing. Probably because they've seen how insincere and misguided your ideology is.

>The rise of capitalism coincided with a huge dive in living standards and life expectancy. But that's just a coincidence.
Being this retarded; kys.
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>>28387
>>
>>28337
>I'm anti-communist
>here's why you capitalists are bad

You're really bad at false flagging. The Congo had nothing to do with capitalism and everything to do with some tribes being empowered by the government and abusing that power to massacre their ancestral enemies.

>>28354
>/pol/ age

We call that "reality", usually.
>>
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How are /pol/ and /leftypol/ relations?

I've heard they team up as they like to team up on individuals with names surrounded by several parentheses.
>>
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>>28254

>The rise of capitalism coincided with a huge dive in living standards and life expectancy.

That's why nobody takes people like you seriously.
>>
>>28254
Nigga what? Living standards are higher than they've ever been in human history.
>>
>>28387

Defense and killing opponents is really the reason why the first governments in history were created, thus showing how futile anarchism of anything really is.
>>
>>27213
No, just that you probably lack the patience for needlessly complex language or intellectual peacocking
>>
>>28434

depends on which one you're talking about

you're instantly banned from 8/pol/ if you mention /leftypol/ in a positive way

(in fact /leftypol/ was created because a bunch people that migrated to 8/pol/ were getting banned for having more left wing beliefs)

and 4/pol/ and /leftypol/'s relations are similar to the relations between the ussr and america after world war 2 but before the korean war

also they've teamed up a few times out of hatred of /r/socialism and the rest of the left wing political boards on reddit
>>
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>>28337
Sourcing for those deaths is shitty and you know it. Also niggers aren't people so as far as I'm concerned that number is pretty much zero.

You're a commie, or some special snowflake version thereof, and frankly I don't give a fuck if you think I don't know the score. You just said you wish you were a communist, not something an innocent person would say.
>>
>>28369
I don't have a clue what that is but I like the cut of your jib fella.
>>
>>28389

You've really got this projection thing down pat.
>>
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>>28254
>The rise of capitalism coincided with a huge dive in living standards and life expectancy. But that's just a coincidence.
The industrial revolution is the reason people even have leisure time.
>>
>>28537
>8/pol/ has gotten worse in the past 12 months

I didn't think it was possible
>>
>>23484
He's commie but Juche type anti-degeneracy commie not blue hair SJW commie.
>>
>>28612
Not a commie, but that's not true. They had more leisure time because their work was tied to farming. Their quality of life was still lower though.
>>
Also he supported and endorsed Donald Trump.
>>
>>28612
bruh people had tons of down time and days off pre-industrial revolution. read about the early industrial revolution and how hard industrialists had to try to get workers used to an industrial work schedule, how lazy they said all the workers are, how they were all used to having too many days off and drinking in the middle of the day etc.
>>
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>>28642
Goddamn it Yuri, we know you're a red. Also have you ever farmed? Cause you don't get lesure time on a farm compared to a 9-5 unless you're having mexicans do all the work.
>>
>>28651
zizek needs to stop being a pussy and embrace reactionary social conservatism, european chauvinism.
>>
>>27308
Yeah, no common man has ever been a socialist! After all, the entire world is the post-WW2 United States!
>>
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>>28629

it can always be worse

they've gone from being so called fascists to neo-con dick lickers

saying israel is shit is also gets you a free ban even though defending jews will also get you banned
>>
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>>23919
this
>I don't like intellectuals--they represent a closed circle. I like the people because they are broad-minded. - Arkan
>>
>>28642
>>28666
depends on who you were
working class no
but it was the first time people who werent aristocrats had leisure, like the growing middle class
>>
>>23919
Reality doesn't exist, it's an ideology attached to existence.
>>
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>>28742
Arkan did nothing wrong.
>>
>>28537
8chn is pretty bad as a whole because the mods can be whoever like on reddit
ive seen pictures of people banned for posting race statistics on leftypol
>>
>>23919
Shit tier lazy response. You can be erudite and hate Marxism. Leftists tend to be wannabe intellectuals, however.
>>
>>28760
That's gotta be one of those things that only makes sense after a few bong rips.
>>
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>>23919
Chiropractors think the same way.
>Read a bunch of books that are not evidence-based.
>"I am smert, SMERT!"
You may be different, but you are cut from the same pseudointellectual cloth.
>>
>>26923
>What is /r9k/
>>
>>28805
I've never used any form of marijuana or any other psychedelic.

You can replace 'reality' with cosmos if you'd like, they're the same nonsense.
>>
>>28844
Reality and cosmos are not interchangable terms. Like not even close, they mean two entirely different things.
>>
>>28915
Not in the way I'm using them, no. Both are ideologies attached to existence.
>>
>>28915
Ooooookay buddy
>>
>>28997
You don't get to do that.
>>
>>29013
Yes I do
>>
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>>29020
You talk like a fag and your shit's all retarded.
>>
>>
>>29426
>private meme ownership
PYOTR
GET THE ICE PICK
>>
>>23484
We love him BECAUSE he's a fellow commie. It's not easy being a leftist these days (and I mean an actual traditional leftist... identity politics stems from the right wing) given the constant bombardment of extreme right wing corporate propaganda masquerading as sensible slightly left-of-center information.
>>
>>28142
His job was a journalist. Marx tried job-hunting, but the job market's always been bad.

Also two of Abe Lincoln's children died and he was the fucking President.
>>
communism is a shitpile, but marxist critique and theory is useful for understanding the modern international circuit
>>
>>27000
The Zyzzek
>>
>>27213
yes you are
>>
>>29564
I agree with everything you said, but:

>identity politics stems from the right wing
Could you explain this further?
>>
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>>29564
>constant bombardment of right wing propaganda
I hope you're joking, corporate propaganda isn't political, it serves its own interests. But there is tons of leftist propaganda everywhere
>>
>>27643
>>he thinks capitalism is a comprehensive ideology
>he thinks it ISN'T
Believing that capitalism is a law of nature and not an ideology is basically the definition of pure ideology.

Capitalism is an ideology just like communism. It even has the same liberal Enlightenment basis.
>>
>>30724
outside of government influence capitalism is the natural result. Monkeys taught how to use currency to buy fruit develop their own capitalist economy based on apples and prostitiution
>>
>>31102
>monkeys taught to be capitalist by humans proves that capitalism is the state of nature
woah... my neurons... so this is what thinking feels like...
>>
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>>30724
>exchanging goods/services for other goods/services is ideology and not natural
>every communal animal on earth isn't natural and is just full of ideology
Communists are actually retarded, aren't you? Tell me about the bourgeois fat kat moneys trading fruit for sex and how they're keeping the proletariat monkeys down.
>>
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>>31102
okay, nerd
>>
>>30714
Propaganda that serves the workers self interest isn't political. I do hope you see where you're going with these implications
>>
>>28833
>/r9k/
>serious discussion
>>
>>31482
human nature doesn't change with environment, that's why it's called human nature

>>31497
>the workers interest
it serves the interest of the (((people))) who push for it while living in their wealthy homogeneous gated communities.
>>
>>31102

>when taught about one of the building blocks of capitalism, monkeys become capitalist

weird
>>
>>31471
Not that guy, nor a communist, but you my man are haunted as fuck.

What the fuck do communal animals have to do with the ideology that is capitalism?
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>>23997
>>24121
>>28074
>>
>>28087
Top Kenser
>>
>>31544
the environment is part of nature though
>>
>>23893
>paying for stuff is hard work, therefore I should get colossally greater amounts of money than I need to pay for stuff
>>
>>31585
Because communal animals typically trade services/resources for services/resources, which is the basis of capitalism? When a money whores itself out for a banana, that's capitalism.
>>
>>31601
human nature is caused by our biology/neurology, environment is irrelevant

>>31615
>I own a this factory and paid for all the cost to run it, but you know, I should pay every worker the exact same amount
>>
Communism is human nature, capitalism is an unnatural system propagated by the state.
>>
>>31482
Then why did every Communist regime need to be forced
>>
>>31643
but children's brains develop differently based on their environment.
>>
>>24531
Proprietarian - eu name for american "libertarian" since "libertarian" originally meant french anarcho-communist
>>
>>31647
statelessness is human nature, communism is the state and is unnatural
>>
hegel was a hack and so is this idiot

remember what the greatest german philosopher had to say about memegel

>that clumsy and nauseating charlatan, that pernicious person, who completely disorganized and ruined the minds of a whole generation
>>
>>31668
there's no "state" in communism, idiot
>>
>>27113
>calories

Ideology is a matter of quality not quantity. You can no more quantify ideology than you can qualify abstract labor under capitalist mode of production
>>
>>31585
he... he literally wrote it in the post
>>
>>28697
This
>>
>>31691
who enforces law? who jails the murderers etc.?
>>
>>31691
then on what authority am I required to participate in a communist society? why am I not allowed to live innawoods with my guns separate from the system in a communist world?
>>
>>31647
hunter gatherer societies (so basically mob rule) are human nature, everything else has to be enforced
>>
>>27338
are u forgetting about global heating?
>>
>>31641
This degenerate "naturalistic justification for the validity of capitalism" meme has got to die.

"Capitalism" is literally that: a system based on capital. By your logic, all historical barter and mercantile economies, in fact all means of exchange, are "capitalist," because you have redefined "capitalism" to mean "any system of exchange."

CAPITALISM involves CAPITAL, which cannot exist without state-defined CURRENCY. When a monkey whores itself out for a banana, that's PRIMITIVE BARTER because it involves no capital. Fiat currency (the "idea of money" that you hold so dear) was invented in the 18th century.

No one agrees with your definition of capitalism save decadent wagecucks who want to justify their enthrallment, which is to say, no one who knows what the word actually means.
>>
>>28697
>>31713
so few of them tho, they vote right-wing

>i know better than you that you are oppressed!
>why dont you still get it? urgh
cringe
>>
>>23751
I hear this a lot, almost akin to not real communism.

What the fuck are you guys actually discussing? Ideology still? When the race war is at our doorsteps? Please point me to some commie shit that discusses racial demographics and their realities.

I am genuinely intrigued.
>>
>>31726
hunter gather societies are enforced. there is not human nature but rather human natures. there is evidence, such as Robert Sapolsky's Keekorok Baboon study, that behavioural norms are closer to culturally influenced rather than instinctual.
>>
>>31721
>>31724
https://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1917/staterev/ch05.htm
>From the moment all members of society, or at least the vast majority, have learned to administer the state themselves, have taken this work into their own hands, have organized control over the insignificant capitalist minority, over the gentry who wish to preserve their capitalist habits and over the workers who have been thoroughly corrupted by capitalism--from this moment the need for government of any kind begins to disappear altogether. The more complete the democracy, the nearer the moment when it becomes unnecessary. The more democratic the “state” which consists of the armed workers, and which is "no longer a state in the proper sense of the word", the more rapidly every form of state begins to wither away.

>For when all have learned to administer and actually to independently administer social production, independently keep accounts and exercise control over the parasites, the sons of the wealthy, the swindlers and other "guardians of capitalist traditions", the escape from this popular accounting and control will inevitably become so incredibly difficult, such a rare exception, and will probably be accompanied by such swift and severe punishment (for the armed workers are practical men and not sentimental intellectuals, and they scarcely allow anyone to trifle with them), that the necessity of observing the simple, fundamental rules of the community will very soon become a habit.

>Then the door will be thrown wide open for the transition from the first phase of communist society to its higher phase, and with it to the complete withering away of the state.
>>
>>31857
>For when all have learned to administer and actually to independently administer social production
dropped
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>>31738
>by your logic, all historical barter and mercantile economies, in fact all means of exchange, are "capitalist," because you have redefined "capitalism" to mean "any system of exchange."
If I trade you 5 hams for a bucket of nails, we've both agreed that it is a fair trade. That 5 hams are worth a bucket of nails. Currency is a way of abstracting the worth of items into a form that is easy to carry and divide since it's hard to trade 5 3/36ths of a ham for the approximate number of nails. Capitalism is still bartering it's just using a medium that takes the place of an item being bartered.

Everything from shiny rocks, tools, shells have all been used as currency and none of it has required a centralized state.

In short, communists are fucking retarded.
>>
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>>24999
imagine actually believing any of this
>>
>>31857
>makes a state but doesn't call it a state so it isn't a state.
all you've done is replace one state with another.
>>
>>28170
Read this:

https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1865/value-price-profit/ch01.htm

Value, price, and profit
>>
This merge is a mistake. I'd rather be with fucking /soc/ than these overconfident uncultured /fit/ fags.
>>
>>31683
>Schoppy
>Greatest German philosopher
Oh I am laffen, thnx JPMoot for this hilarious prank xD
>>
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reminder that communism commands authority over individuals and is therefore a spook
>>
>>31889
wow nice argument
>>31921
how is it another state? if nobody is subjected to anyone else's power since there's no government, there can't be a state
>>
>>28410
>Kulaks are the proletariat
They're definitively not though
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>>31894
>Capitalism is still bartering it's just using a medium that takes the place of an item being bartered.
That's why it's not the same thing as bartering, you fucking idiot. The word "barter" is defined as an exchange that doesn't involve money. You don't even have to read anything Marxist, if you'd read a fraction of Wealth of Nations we wouldn't be having this conversation.

Fuck's sake, this is ridiculous. I cannot believe that person like you is competent to use a keyboard, read a monitor, and understand that the former effects the latter.
>>
>>31894
what about societies who don't develop sophisticated ideas of ownership? like early contact North East Indian tribes, where exchange was symbolic rather than materially focused. this kind of exchange system can still be found in the andes today.
>>
>>32021
>communism commands authority over individuals
source?
....
individuals would be more free with communism than any other system, there's no state to command anyone to do anything
>>
>>32023
you are a fucking retard if you think *all* have the mental capabilities to administer everything
>>
>>32069
communism has failed literally every single fucking time and ended up as authoritarian as shit
>>
>>32069
then what's the difference between communism and ancap?
>>
>>32039
those stay poor
>>
>>32039
they stay poor and desolate. Are you seriously fucking telling me you dickheads want to go back to a tribal-style society
>>
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>>32035
>That's why it's not the same thing as bartering, you fucking idiot
Money is worth something because both parties have agreed that it has worth and that it can be exchanged for goods and services. If I have 15 people working for me and I pay them in hams instead of in money that can be used to buy hams, it's not capitalism? Are you fucking stupid? Bartering is capitalism you mongoloid.
>>32039
>what about societies who don't develop sophisticated ideas of ownership?
You honestly believe that they'd let you mooch off them? That they'd support you indefinitely? They'd still expect you to either support the group with food/materials or through work. Which you'd trade for their continued support.
>>
>>31894
All of these are a method of abstracting value, but actual use value is qualitative not quantitative. Qualitative and quantitative are incomparable. There is a third metaphysical object that dictates exchange of one item to another or one item to the money-commodity when qualitative use values are incomparable and subjective. This is called value, the relation of commodities in themselves to the apportioning of society's labor to the production of commodities. Prices are the negation of values by demand, and the negation of the negation (the negation of prices) is profit.

"Barter" is a fiction that exists to create a subjectivist view of economics, which has never been a socially organizing force in history (money was invented during the invention of agriculture before which were tribal gift economies)
>>
>>31750
There were actually a good number of left-leaning working class people throughout the 20th century even in the US, its just that the various 3-letter agencies who are in the pockets of big business have been there to subvert any sort of worker's movement. The most recent example of this is by intentionally creating all the "SJW" nonsense in order to derail the Occupy movement and create a bunch of far-right reactionaries, and unfortunately they seem to have succeeded. Then again, if the system continues to screw the people over hard enough they may become disillusioned with right-wing economics, while Bernie has quickly become the most popular politician in the country by actually fighting for the little guy, so we'll have to see how that goes.
>>
>>32115
No property or money
>>
>>32142
no, I'm saying poor is relative and determined on your cognitive virtue of wealth. those societies aren't poor because they don't conceive wealth like we do. they are not desolate either.
>>
>>32192
then what stops someone from creating property or money?
>>
>>32112
communism would be successful if capitalists would stop fucking it up every time someone tries. the capitalists are trying to protect their wealth
the authoritarianism is only needed for a short while to transition to communism, the state goes away completely eventually
>>32115
there's no such thing as private property in communism, for one thing
ancap can't work because corporations would just act as a state and have power over people
>>
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>>32156
>which were tribal gift economies
Funnily enough, you still needed to provide for the group in some way of those 'gifts' would dry up for some reason. But I'm sure that trading your labor and or goods for the support of other people is in no way anyway close to 'bartering' or 'capitalism'.
>>
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>>32143
>If I have 15 people working for me and I pay them in hams instead of in money that can be used to buy hams, it's not capitalism?
You've presupposed that people are in a labor force under you, which is a conceit of propriety that only exists in capitalism anyway.

But to the point: if you agree to give someone "hams" in exchange for e.g. tilling a field that is NOT a capitalist exchange. I'm sorry you don't understand this. Maybe you should learn how to properly define words before entering a discussion.

>Bartering is capitalism you mongoloid.
It is, literally, not. Again, learn or relearn how to define words. You are denser than the weights you probably spend your days lifting
>>
>>23484

Communism doesn't work as a political system, but it does offer some accurate and interesting insights into society and psychology. It's good for analysis, not for basing a society on.

Zizek is one of the rare modern communists who actually has a sense of humor and perceives to some extent that the hyper-PC movement in leftism is a cult. He can also be rather perceptive.

I think that he nails the Europe migrant issue: multiculti leftists who pretend that there is no problem are deluded, but the right-wing populists who want to bring back authoritarian nationalism are much worse. Migrants threaten Europe's body, but the right-wing populists threaten its soul.

That said, he isn't perfect. His understanding of many things is lacking. For example, I don't think he actually has any advanced understanding of economics or science. But he is good in his area of interest.
>>
>>32143
that's how our society works. your trying to compare your idea of kinship to their society which doesn't work.
>>
>>27126

No. Truly smart people are not socialists. Nor are they right-wingers. Nor are they libertarians.

Truly smart people are classical liberals.

You're welcome.
>>
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>>32232
>But to the point: if you agree to give someone "hams" in exchange for e.g. tilling a field that is NOT a capitalist exchange. I'm sorry you don't understand this. Maybe you should learn how to properly define words before entering a discussion.
>Giving someone hams in exchange for work isn't capitalism
>giving someone a trade good such as gold that they believe is worth ham(x) is totally different
Are you guys even trying?
>It is, literally, not. Again, learn or relearn how to define words. You are denser than the weights you probably spend your days lifting
So if I barter shiny gold coins for hams, that totally isn't capitalism?
>>
>>32231
Do you even understand what the words "gift economy" mean?
>>
>>32168
Nice theory about 3-letter agencies creating identity politics... but unless you have some proof, I don't see how it's anything more than speculation.
>>
>>32272
Defining urself as truly smart wow good strategy u have proven your ideology as supreme
>>
>>24999
literally all these are examples of failures
>>
>>27075
/lit/ just likes to be contrarian ie against whatever the rest of 4chan is for

right now we have the alt-right desu
>>
>>32298
Take a look at 4chan you fucking idiot.
>>
>>28697
>After all, the entire world is the post-WW2 United States!
I mean the US was socialist after the war man..
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Zizek is probably the biggest pseudo-intellectual of our time.

>doesn't accept human instincts exist

Why does he deny scientific facts?
>>
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Daily reminder that dialectical materialism is pseudoscience.
>>
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>>32287
The fact that no society runs solely on a 'gift economy'? And that those instances are relegated to mostly religious acts? I guess America is a 'gift economy' since churches run soup kitchens.
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>the collapse of capitalism is inevitable they said
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>>32277
>>giving someone a trade good such as gold that they believe is worth ham(x) is totally different
It is, because this is how the word "capitalism" is defined. We're obviously going to go in ruts here, you're patently unwilling to alter your pattern of circular logic.

>So if I barter shiny gold coins for hams, that totally isn't capitalism?
It's a capitalist exchange, not bartering. You're just playing a language game where "barter," "exchange," and "pay" all mean the same thing, which they don't.

You've used up your last (You), feel free to make the last reply and "win the argument."
>>
>>32359
I said pre-monetary economies were gift economies, not barter economies. Learn to read good
>>
>>30724
>Believing that capitalism is a law of nature and not an ideology
But this is mostly true.

Markets existed before the first states existed.
>>
>>32359
settler period Iceland did. sagas tell of complicated system of homestead one-up-manship associated with their gift economy.
>>
>>32368
we're in the final stages of capitalism, we're going to enter a post-scarcity economy and develop into a communist society
>>
>>31643
>biology/neurology
STEMsperg nonsense.
>>
>>32368
It is tho
>>
The most ironic thing is that a thread about zizek ends up being filled with all manner of ideology.
>>
>>27401
>literally everything that isn't communism is capitalism
AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
>>
>>32357
Diamat is a theory of knowledge not a science

Read some books
>>
>>32439
>we're in the final stages of capitalism, we're going to enter a post-scarcity economy and develop into a communist society
>this is what socialists actually fucking believe

LMAO You people are truly religious.

>>32445
Prove it, oh wait you can't.
>>
>>31721
>enforcing law
Fuck off statist
>>
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Taleb > Zizek
>>
>>32343
>science
>fact
>>
>>32462
It fails even as a theory of knowledge. If your theory of knowledge gets proven wrong using facts and logic then it's wrong. You people are dumb enough to believe that all human behavior is the result of economic forces. How retarded is that?

You people are religious fundamentalists.
>>
>>32491
Name one(1) human social behavior that is not affected by a material need
>>
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>>32488
and the religious fundie marxists show their true colors yet again
>>
>>32514
ritual
>>
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>>32380
>It is, because this is how the word "capitalism" is defined. We're obviously going to go in ruts here, you're patently unwilling to alter your pattern of circular logic.
You're hiding in the definition instead of looking at the actual act. Capitalism is exchanging money instead goods. The money is simply a stand in for the goods. For all intents and purposes there is no difference between me trading a chicken for a ham, and trading the amount of money that chicken was worth for that ham. The money is simply a hypothetical chicken with infinitely more utility.
>It's a capitalist exchange, not bartering.

What's the difference between me trading a pot of whiskey for an axe, and me trading shiny rocks for an axe? In both trades all the items have an agreed upon worth, one is simply more convenient.

At what point does trading rocks turn into capitalism? After they're smelted?
>>32423
>I said pre-monetary economies were gift economies, not barter economies. Learn to read good
Prove it.
>>32437
Actual books tell that they traded in ivory, meat, and fat. Which indicates... capitalism.
>>
>>32514
the human instinct to survive and get resources is only one human instinct out of countless ones

to claim all human behavior is the result of economic forces is hilariously wrong

marxism is a religion
>>
>>32467
>socialists
I'm not a fucking socialist

>religious
communism is atheist, in fact, athiesm is actually required for a communist society to function

religion is the opiate of the masses.
>>
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>>32442
>STEMsperg nonsense.

>dude the human brain doesn't affect human behavior in any way
>dude instincts don't exist because muh marxist professor told me so

lmao you people are so fucking retarded
>>
>>32550
>I'm not a fucking socialist
yeah you're a socialist

>communism is atheist
You claim that, but then worship cult leaders that strongly limit your supply of information.
Marxism is pretty much a religion.
>>
>>32523
Emerges from medicine in early human and tribal societies
>>
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>and the state will wither away they said
>>
>>32528
the sagas are actual books and one of the best primary sources on Iron Age scandinavian culture. one mark historians use to seperate the viking age from medieval is the transition of a gift economy into one we would recognise as proto-capitalist.
>>
>>32558
umm I don't follow any leaders though?
Marxism is pretty much the opposite of religion, read a book sometime
>>
>>28170
>mfw class consciousness is rising
We are coming bucko
>>
>>32572
>Marxism is pretty much the opposite of religion
Yet they worship cult leaders?
Yet they've been proven wrong logically and historically countless times yet still continue to spew their delusions?
>>
>>32566
>the sagas are actual books and one of the best primary sources on Iron Age scandinavian culture
Written hundreds of years after the fact by christian monks. They still bartered and traded. You're superimposing what you want to believe and misrepresenting the facts to do it.
>>
>>32559
no, ritual extends from death. the first rituals found in any paleo-society is burial. any other extrapolation is speculation.
>>
>>32582
>Yet they worship cult leaders?
I don't know what you're referring to
I'm starting to think you might just be retarded
>>
>>31738
I like you
I wish your kind could be more vocal on /pol/
>>
>>32588
no, I'm going by accepted historical fact. this is what historians believe to be true.
>>
>>32580
Your ideology is dead.
It's never coming back.

What are you going to do about people that disprove your delusional religious biology denying ideology?

Nobody wants to be a communist because people KNOW it makes no sense whatsoever. People saw the result of socialism/communism and know it's a massive failure.
>>
>>32608
>appealing to nature
ayy lmao
>>
>>32600
>I don't know what you're referring to
Lenin/stalin/mao/castro?
You're saying they weren't cult leaders?
>>
>>32608
>your delusional religious biology denying ideology?
>muh nature nature
Spooky as fuck
>>
>>32607
Right https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Settlement_of_Iceland

I'm sure killing walruses for ivory and selling farmland is totally gift-giving. Who knew that international trade wasn't capitalism?
>>
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>>32620
>I'm going to deny established scientific fact because I'm a sophist who enjoys reading word salad garbage

How do you people function at all in the real world if you don't even believe in evolution?
>>
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>>32620
Why do leftists openly deny human nature exists?

It's like they're proud of being stupid. I don't understand what their problem is.
>>
>>32616
yeah I'm pretty sure none of those people ever started a cult, also they're all dead anyways so I don't think they'll be leading anything anytime soon
>>
>>27126
People with an average or slightly above average IQ, basically everyone who studies humanities at college, tend to be some sort of marxist so that they can pretend they are inteligent and "above the masses" even though they are just trying to fit in with their surrounding.
>>
>>32654
>yeah I'm pretty sure none of those people ever started a cult
>I was only pretending to be retarded
>>
>>32644
>>32652
>deriving oughts from is
Whether or not it exists doesn't makes it immutable, scared and irrefutable. Worst of all it can't be used to place above your self-interest
>>
>>32669
?
>>
>>32675
>Whether or not it exists doesn't makes it immutable, scared and irrefutable.
Yes, yes it does.
Facts are facts.

>Worst of all it can't be used to place above your self-interest
I'm not making any moral judgments whatsoever.
I am only describing human behaviors and their limits.
>>
>>31752
Crypto-marxist and Zizek fan here
Marxist theories and tools are top-tier when you're looking for broad sociological, political and economic analysis, but they fail massively once it goes down to the individual
My own private theory is that marxism has actually inherited a lot from catholicism and judaism, and in its raw form has some transcendental quality that draws smart people to it, and basically acts like a fairly stable ideological matrix upon which you can then expand other reflexions or actions
>>
>>32642
if you read books, instead of wiki articles you'll realise that such a generalisation is ridiculous. try the viking way of life by steven ashby and branch out. unless of course, you're happy that all your knowledge comes from an online encyclopaedia and in that case I'd just lol.
>>
>>32691
>Facts are facts.
Again you can't derive an ought from an is. Nigga do you even know about is-ought problem?

>I am only describing human behaviors and their limits.
That is fine but irrelevant, what is spooky is treating it as immutable, scared and irrefutable.
>>
>>32652
because human nature is mediated by the findings of behavioural biology, anthropology, sociology, and cognitive sciences. leftists are anti-reductionists and thus draw from a much deep pool of knowledge to explain complex phenomena.
>>
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>>32700
Marxism is a fairy tale.
>>
>>32733
>is-ought problem
spooky
>>
>>32528
God you're embarassing to read
That's literally facebook-tier arguments you're pulling out of your ass right here
>>
>>32721
>if you read books, instead of wiki articles you'll realise that such a generalisation is ridiculous.
So the source isn't good because you disagree with it? How surprising. I guess trade didn't happen in Visby, nor in other places in sweden or norway thousands of years before people went to iceland.
>>
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>>32765
>I don't know what is a spook: the /fit/izen
Spooks are abstractions you place above your self-interest. Is the is-ought problem making me do and support stupid shit that is detrimental to my self interest?

No then shut the fuck up
>>
>>32785
one source is never good enough, no. to get a sharper picture of any subject a wide reading is required.
>>
>>32783
>God you're embarassing to read
Tell me how I'm wrong you turbo nigger. Tell me at what point does barter become capitalism. How is me trading pottery worth 1lb of gold for steel tools appreciatively different from trading that 1lb of gold for that steel tools instead?
>>32795
And for everything I've read, the Scandinavians were perfectly happy with capitalism since the bronze age. Just like how the icelanders were perfectly happy to sell and trade between themselves and the mainland.
>>
>>32793
>Is the is-ought problem making me do and support stupid shit that is detrimental to my self interest?
yes because it's just some made up philosophical bullshit that you care about too much
>>
>>32804
then you haven't read a lot. how to explain silver in a sociological gift economy is a debate that's been going for decades and is constantly being evaluated and re-evaluated.
>>
>>32820
>They traded silver but it totally wasn't capitalism! All those precious metal disks were gifts, not currency!
How fucking delusional are you people?
>>
>>32741
Cool story bro
>>32804
I'm not here to feed the void skull of an intellectual welfare queen who jumps into debate without any actual knowledge of the issue at hand
I can unironically say that your Currency = Capitalism theory is hands down the stupidest things I have read today. Read a book you stupid nigger
>>
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>>32862
>tradeing goods/services isn't capitalism!
>I can unironically say that your Currency = Capitalism theory is hands down the stupidest things I have read today.
I was stating that barting is capitalism in a simpler form. That there is absolutely no logical difference between trading a good or service and using an intermediary that is more convenient.

Capitalism is the way of nature, since even fucking monkys engage in capitalism, even if the thing being traded is fucking bananas. But I guess I interrupted your circlejerk by stating a demonstrable fact
>>
>>32854
http://www.medievalists.net/2012/04/identity-and-economic-change-in-the-viking-age/
>>
>>32894
Underage people aren't allowed to post here you know
Trade isn't synonymous with capitalism you massive faggot, have you even looked up what the word means, and how it was different from the previous systems that existed ?
I understand why the former anon just chose to ignore you, this is just embarassing stooping down to that level of retardation
>>
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>>32905
>Trade isn't synonymous with capitalism you massive faggot, have you even looked up what the word means, and how it was different from the previous systems that existed ?
>Capitalism: an economic and political system in which a country's trade and industry are controlled by private owners for profit, rather than by the state.
>Trade: the action of buying and selling goods and services.
Considering most trade is done by private individuals and has been for the overwhelming majority of human history, they're pretty much synonymous, especially every free trade is made of the assumption that both parties are profiting from it, otherwise they wouldn't fucking do the trade.

You're trying to be a word lawyer instead of disproving anything I said because you know you're a fucking retard who can't just admit that monkey's trade sex for fruit and that is a capitalistic venture by the money as the monkey providing the sex is compensated for the act and profits from it.
>>
>>32932
because trade isn't the only part of capitalism. there is also production models, institutional structures, social relations, etc. you're reducing the definition to one aspect and throwing out all the other properties of capitalism to bolster your argument. that's why people are calling it stupid.
>>
>>32733
>That is fine but irrelevant, what is spooky is treating it as immutable, scared and irrefutable.
>he thinks he can use the cognitive part of his brain to override the emotional side
lol
>>
>>32862
>Cool story bro

>get btfo
>use 10 year old memes as a response

marxist cucks everyone
>>
>>32932
American education : the post
What can I do against the famed 'Argumentum ad Simian' for capitalism, my rethorical skills are of no match to that level of intellectual prowess
Looks like I'm forever and eternally BTFO and won't recover
>>32940
Don't bother he's a lost cause
>>32943
With soliders like this guy on your side >>32932 I think we're actually doing pretty good
>>
>>32940
>because trade isn't the only part of capitalism
It's only the most important fucking part. A black guy trading 15 snail shells for an iron spear is the same fucking thing as me going down to ALDI and paying $15 for a bottle of protein powder. The only difference is that one is slightly more complicated than the other. Someone still made the product being purchased, someone still labored to acquire the thing being traded. You're only bitching because you don't want to accept it.
>>
>>32550
>religion is the opiate of the masses.
Only if you're a cihld.
>>32551
There is no brain.
>>
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>>32952
You responded to 4 people and didn't even bother to have an argument.
>>
>>32960
>There is no brain.
Yes, in people like you who can't spell the word "child".
You child.
>>
>>32960
>There is no brain.
This is what marxists ACTUALLY believe.

Remember this next time marxist kiddies try to claim to be objective and logical.
>>
>>32962
Because they don't have one. It's not capitalism because it's just not. That's their entire 'argument'
>>
>>32958
I'd say how capital informs the models for banks and government are more important than transactions.
>>
>>32967
They're pretty fucking delusional.

They don't even realized market economies with employees etc existed before the first STATES even existed.

These societies had courts, judges and private property norms as well.
>>
>>32973
realize*
>>
>>32962
>>32967
>>32967

I don't know which anon you are but the time of arguments was never there, because you are uninformed and uneducated
So I'll just leave this straight out of wikipedia

The Roman Empire developed more advanced forms of commerce, and similarly widespread networks existed in Islamic nations, but capitalism took shape in Europe in the late Middle Ages and Renaissance. However, while trade has existed since early in human history, it was not capitalism.

Modern capitalism, however, only fully emerged in the early modern period between the 16th and 18th centuries, with the establishment of mercantilism or merchant capitalism.
>>
>>32970
Capitalism is where trade is done by private individuals, you don't need 'capital' governments, or banks for it to exist. Capitalism is literally just people trading shit for a profit.
>>
>>32973
states arose with agriculture, those things did not exist in hunter-gather societies.
>>
>>32964
how DARE he quickly type out 'child' and accidentally hit two keys in a different order?!?!! he must be le dumb!
>>32966
I'm not a Marxist.
Objectivity and logic do not exist.
>>
>>32978
you are trying to reduce the definition again. social relations and government institutions are apart of the definition of capitalism.
>>
>>32977
>Private owners never traded before the middle ages
Still trying to play that retarded word lawyering? Don't you have an actual argument?
>>32984
Maybe your fantasy marxist definition, the actual one? Not so much.
>>
>>32988
"Fuck definitions and science, I'm the authority on what a word means"
>>
>>32979
>states arose with agriculture
WRONG

There was agriculture before the first states existed.

>>32981
>how DARE he quickly type out 'child' and accidentally hit two keys in a different order?!?!! he must be le dumb!
Yeah he does seem pretty stupid for something that denies the brain having any social effect on society. lmao what a retard
>>
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>>32981
>Objectivity and logic do not exist.

So 1+1 equal 3 if your feelings say it does?
>>
>>32995
>the marxist definition of capitalism is the official one
It's literally not and nobody cares about your marxist delusions.

Your ideology is dead and never coming back. Deal with it.
>>
>>32988
>The possession of capital or wealth; an economic system in which private capital or wealth is used in the production or distribution of goods and prices are determined mainly in a free market; the dominance of private owners of capital and of production for profit.

so we have production, distribution, and private ownership. so banks, government, common law, and social relations are all apart of the definition.

"capitalism, n.2." OED Online. Oxford University Press, March 2017. Web. 2 April 2017.
>>
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>>32998
haha ur dumb for not having an enlightenment ideology liek me
>>
>>33008
>>32988
Capitalism is such a vague USELESS term.

It damages critical thinking just using this term.
>>
>>32995
"Using a definition for capitalism that wasn't taught to me by my hobo mentor or my gender studies proffessor? How uneducated!"
Please. You actually believe that private individuals never owned the means of production, distribution, nor exchanged wealth before the 16th century? Are all communists as stupid as you or did deepthroating Zizek's dick cause some brain damage?
>>33008
>have production
I have a garden and I grow turnips
> distribution,
I go to the market to sell those turnips
>and private ownership
I own my farm and thus my business.

You're retarded.
>>
>>32996
the neolithic evidence says otherwise. Gobekli Tepe dates back to est. 9000 BCE
>>
>>33013
anthropological, historical, and sociological evidence says otherwise. even in philosophy they have been trying to get to the bottom of what property meant in ancient societies.

Aristotle makes numerous references to property as "common" in his politics.
>>
>>33014
>the neolithic evidence says otherwise. Gobekli Tepe dates back to est. 9000 BCE
Wrong lmao

http://www.independent.org/publications/tir/article.asp?issueID=44&articleID=560

https://mises.org/library/enforcement-private-property-rights-primitive-societies-law-without-government

http://www.independent.org/publications/tir/article.asp?a=877

http://econfaculty.gmu.edu/bcaplan/anarfaq.htm#part17
>>
>>33013
Here's a third source, with the same consistent definition that made a distinction between trade and capitalism
http://www.historyworld.net/wrldhis/PlainTextHistories.asp?historyid=aa49
If this definition doesn't fit, you're kindly asked to provide a credible source that has solid evidence and research to sustain that 'definition' you've been trying to push

Are you baiting at this point ? Cause I really have trouble imagining there's actually people as thick and clueless as you. Please don't make me lose even more faith in humanity
>>
>>33037
none of those articles contradict what I said. they're speculations on primitive political systems, not anthropological evidence.
>>
>>33051
>not anthropological evidence.
But there's actual anthropological evidence there though.
>>
>>33062
I see no kinship references on the libertarian or anachrist links I clicked. which link refers to kinship or whether their methodology is formalist or substanivist.
>>
>>33025
>anthropological, historical, and sociological evidence says otherwise
All the evidence points towards markets existing before the first states.

>Aristotle makes numerous references to property as "common" in his politics.
Yes, the state owned a few things. There was private property as well.
>>
>>33087
You're actually wrong.
Read this
http://www.independent.org/pdf/tir/tir_10_3_04_thompson.pdf
>>
>>33099
which evidence? market trade wasn't consistent even as recently as the renascence. all evidence points toward barter and gift economies until late renaissance or early modern period, depending on where you draw lines historically.

where is the conclusive paper on ancient private property? as far as I'm aware, it's still an undecided debate.
>>
>>33102
>http://www.independent.org/pdf/tir/tir_10_3_04_thompson.pdf
again, interpretation is not evidence. where is his kinship model and what methodology does he use? you can claim organisation is accidental, that's fine, but no artefact supports that. in order to support that claim you have to give credible evidence that market exchange was apart of the kinship model of that society. also, that paper makes no claim that the Indus Valley was stateless. in fact it gives a very clear reference to the cooperation of the city states.
>>
>>33124
I also notice it doesn't address the fertility figure or pashupati seal. what account does this thinker give for these artefacts if not cultic.
>>
>>33106
>all evidence points toward barter and gift economies
lmao no
These ancient societies had currency too.
Sure they weren't as "capitalist" as today's society but they had markets, that's for sure.

I already posted evidence of this.
>>
>>28423
>You're really bad at false flagging
Ah yes, I forgot the only alternative to capitalism was communism you illiterate pleb.
>>
>>33106
you're retarded
https://projects.exeter.ac.uk/RDavies/arian/amser/chrono1.html
>>
>>33124
Hmm, maybe I need to research this more.
There's still tons of evidence of stateless societies using markets however(medieval iceland, medieval ireland, american midwest) so the idea that states create capitalism is kind of silly.
http://www.freenation.org/a/f13l1.html

I don't know much about anthropology though. I should study that.
>>
>>28718
leftpol is fucking garbage anyway

I'll take 8pol's shittiness over leftpol's marxist delusions any fucking day
>>
>>33169
Markets do not equal capitalism.
>>
>>33186
Capitalism is a vague useless word that has a billion meanings. All which are useless.

I prefer free market vs unfree market.
Or, if you're a leftcuck, capitalist control over the means of production vs "worker" control over the means of production.
>>
>>33162
>Sure they weren't as "capitalist" as today's society but they had markets, that's for sure.

that's the point. capitalism has a fixed definition, one does that fit your claim. to make that claim you need evidence of ownership, production, distribution, and kinship models that show capital was used in these societies. otherwise, you are changing the definition of capitalism.
>>
>>33203
>I prefer free market vs unfree market.
You're a faggot then, because there is very definite socialist thought which supports the free market.

>capitalist control over the means of production vs "worker" control over the means of production
This is much better, but has nothing to do with the *distribution* of goods, which is what the free market is concerned with.
>>
>>33169
we all need to read more. knowledge is a process and the evidence we have today is not to evidence we will have tomorrow. my point is, if you make a claim then there should be evidence for that claim. I have no problem with interpretation or philosophy or politic ideology but I think you go over the line when you start to make absolutist claims about things like human nature.

I never claimed markets were dependent on states. I said states arose with agriculture. I also said that capitalism, by definition, includes more than just trade. stateless capitalism isn't impossible, we just don't have any evidence for it so far.
>>
>>33207
>capitalism has a fixed definition
The definition is fucking useless. It doesn't have a fixed definition. It means whatever the speaker wants it to mean.

It's the most vague term ever created.

>to make that claim you need evidence of ownership, production, distribution, and kinship models that show capital was used in these societies

They had markets, currency, trade, homesteading and a system of property rights.

They were close to what I would call a "free market".
I don't know or care if they would fall under the definition of what you call "capitalism".

>>33208
>because there is very definite socialist thought which supports the free market.
mutualists are cucks lmao

worker's co-ops don't exist today because they aren't economically productive. If they were, they would dominate the market.

At least I can respect mutualists though. Literally the only socialist I can respect who isn't batshit insane.
>>
>>33224
>mutualists are cucks lmao
So cucks don't exist any more? Your definitions is fucked, move on and get a better one.
>words mean what I WANT THEM TO MEAN
lol
>>
>>33168
Code of Hammurabi is the only solid artefact here. now to test the theory we need to look at how those banks and common law informed kinship relations. I think you'll find, like the viking era, there is a lot of evidence for trade being barter rather than market. but thanks, I'll have to look into claims for credit in mesopotamia.
>>
>>33224
yeah, I guess language serves no function of consensus.
>>
>>33229
>So cucks don't exist any more?
Free market socialists are totally fine and I totally support such a thing existing. I'm just saying they are efficient and will be a part part of the marketplace.

>>words mean what I WANT THEM TO MEAN
That's pretty much the mentality of what people who use the term "capitalism" either left or right have.
>>
>>33238
Of course it does.
That's why I hate people who use vague, useless terms like "capitalism" when it has a million meanings that people disagree on.
I want specifics. Not vague bullshit.
>>
>>33240
>Free market socialists are totally fine and I totally support such a thing existing. I'm just saying they are efficient and will be a part part of the marketplace.
Okay but the whole reason I brought them up was to make the point that free market obviously doesn't mean capitalist, if there are socialists who use the free market.
>That's pretty much the mentality of what people who use the term "capitalism" either left or right have.
Anon we are talking about an actual scholarly subject here. There is stringent discourse.

In any case: capitalism and socialism can most simply be distinguished by who gets to own the capital goods. I suppose another distinction would be whether or not you call them capital goods -- or means of production...
>>
>>33243
I gave the OED definition with citation. What other definition would you use?
>>
>>33251
>I gave the OED definition with citation.
So?
There are many marxists that would disagree with that definition and many libertarians that would disagree.

Some people think central banking is a part of capitalism, others don't. Some people believe government that exist in nations that have markets are part of capitalism, others don't.
Some people believe "the patriarchy" is part of capitalism, others don't.
>>
>>33249
>Okay but the whole reason I brought them up was to make the point that free market obviously doesn't mean capitalist
Fine. Again, capitalism is a vague useless term.
This is another example of it being useless.

>if there are socialists who use the free market.
Yet the vast majority of socialists hate the free market.

>actual scholarly subject here
Why does this matter?
Universities are full of legit retards and cultists that constantly lie and get free money from the government.

>In any case: capitalism and socialism can most simply be distinguished by who gets to own the capital goods. I suppose another distinction would be whether or not you call them capital goods -- or means of production...
I don't care about arguing semantics. There are far better words and terms than capitalism. People need to use them and stop confusing people.

>by who gets to own the capital goods.
Then use terms like this instead of the word capitalism.
>>
>>33265
so, anybody making the claim to capitalism must support that with evidence which satisfies the definition. meaning isn't transferable. it can morph philologically, it have connotative meanings in colloquial register, it can be figurative etc. but it can't be demised because some people disagree. the validity of the claim rests of the quality of the evidence.
>>
>>33274
Anon people have been doing just fine with the words. The only problems come from people straight-up getting the definitions wrong. Maybe you're just an outlier?
>>
>>33277
one problem is commonly see is that people don't seperate capital from wealth. they think where money resides there is capital which is not how capitalism is defined.
>>
>>33277
>Anon people have been doing just fine with the words.
No. All of these threads turn into people talking over each other because people think they are speaking of different things.
>>
>>33287
that only happens when people think there is no way they can possibly be wrong and double down on all dissenting information. I've only seen 2 or 3 anons doing that. seems like you have the problem, not thread.
>>
>>33303
Wrong.
Holy shit.
I already explained how many different people accept many different explanations for the word "capitalism" so it leads to everyone talking over each other.

Or the thread turns into a debate about semantics.

>Are central banks capitalist or are they not?
Who fucking gives a shit, it semantics.
>>
>>33314
wrong? you don't seem to understand how definitions work. good meme though.
>>
File: Hans-Hermann-Hoppe.jpg (841KB, 1200x1600px) Image search: [Google]
Hans-Hermann-Hoppe.jpg
841KB, 1200x1600px
> mfw no one has physically removed this thread yet
>>
File: 1486151858275.png (28KB, 582x481px) Image search: [Google]
1486151858275.png
28KB, 582x481px
>>33385
Not an argument at all.
You know everyone uses the definitions differently.
It goes nowhere.

>>33410
Based Hoppe.
>>
>>33413
I've already given my argument. you just don't understand how definitions work. disagreement doesn't render a definition useless. feel free to parse my earlier explanation until you do.
>>
>>33443
>you just don't understand how definitions work
>disagreement doesn't render a definition useless
lol oh wait you actually think the dictionary definition of things is the absolute unquestionable definition

You keep ignoring the fact that countless people disagree with the definition of capitalism and that there is no real objective definition.
>>
>>33468
no, I actually believe dictionary definitions serve as a function on which claims can be evaluated. I'm not ignoring that people disagree, it's just you don't understand how definitions work. as you've just proven.
>>
>>33480
>no, I actually believe dictionary definitions serve as a function on which claims can be evaluated
That's sad because a lot of the time dictionary definitions are vague and useless.
Plenty of people, both left and right do not use them in regards to the word capitalism.

>it's just you don't understand how definitions work
You don't understand how people use definitions of words. I perfectly understand how dictionaries work.
>>
>>33510
language is morphologically and lexicologically fluid as usage progresses. that doesn't render it vague or useless.

people speak in connotations not definitions. the only time definitions should be used is in formal writing or debate, where their function is one of evaluation.

you don't understand how dictionaries work. you think definitions are vague and useless, which demonstrates the depth of your linguistic knowledge.
>>
>>33510
I recommend How to Do Things With Words by J.L Austin, I and Thou by Martin Buber, Course in General Linguistics by Ferdinand de Saussure, and Philosophical Investigations by Wittgenstein for an overview.
>>
>>23484

He is a meme.

He is good at getting the conversation going, but he has zero useful ideas.
Thread posts: 422
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