REMINDER that if you want aesthetics and are doing starting strength

>>42609766
What's wrong with starting strength

File: HDR_Tone-M.jpg (50KB, 360x450px) Image search: [Google]

50KB, 360x450px

>>42609766

Powerlifting programs won't make you fat, pic related.

Eating like a permabulk fag, however, will.

>>42609797
Absolutely nothing.

>>42609766
I know this is a troll pic, but lets just marvel at
>4 months, adding 450 to your deadlift, 380 to your squat, lmao 50 to your bench
>Gaining 123 lb in 4 months
>Starting: 132 lb 14% bf = 18.5 lb fat 113.5 lb lean mass
>Ending: 255 lb 34% bf = 86.7 lb fat 168.3 lb lean mass
>Adding 54.8 lb of lean mass in 4 months

>>42609945
hair length also

>>42609945

Also, hair growing two feet.

>>42609945
The numbers must be off somehow. Haven't there been a bunch of studies saying a person can only build 2-3 pounds of muscle a month max?

>>42609945
So you're telling me SS+GOMAD will add 13 lb of lean mass every month? Time to buy some god damn milk.

>>42609897
The amount of gear he's on and workload he's doing?
He can pull up a fucking chair at chinese buffet and not move an inch for two fucking hours and do the same thing at an all you can eat pizza place and not gain much in the way of fat.

You have no fucking point.

>>42609797

nothing, but its made primarily for athletes who are training 4-5 days per week AND who want to gain muscle/strength.

if that's you, great. if it isn't, fine, but SS will have you plateau pretty quick because volume is low, and you aren't doing any other sport exercise.

>>42609968
Yeah, pounds of muscle. You can still get fat.

File: fit humor 56.jpg (90KB, 720x960px) Image search: [Google]

90KB, 720x960px

>>42609766
Those Squat and Deadlift numbers are huge, sign me up senpai.

File: 1503155076626.gif (425KB, 512x512px) Image search: [Google]

425KB, 512x512px

>>42609766
It's because he did gomad.

>>42609766
God every fucking faggot on this site.
THERES NO LIFTING PROGRAM IN THE FUCKING WORLD THAT WILL MAKE YOU FAT.
YOUR BODYFAT IS 100% BASED ON YOUR DIET. LIFTING WEIGHTS OF ANY KIND CANNOT CREATE FAT BASED ON THE LAWS OF PHYSICS AND CHEMISTRY WE UNDERSTAND OF THIS UNIVERSE.

>>42609766
you telling me he grew that much hair in 4 months? rite faggot.

>>42609797
>>42609926
At first you can easily make strength gains and go +5/10 lbs in the beginning. Eventually after like a month you will STALL unless you eat exactly how Rippletoe tells you to (1000+ calories everyday) so you can stay on a linear gains path by just increasing your actual body weight with fat.

If you're still at a "beginner level strength" and you're stalling, SS does nothing to help besides tell you to eat more and wait until next week. It's absolute shit for bench/ohp also.

>>42610085
>THERES NO LIFTING PROGRAM IN THE FUCKING WORLD THAT WILL MAKE YOU FAT.
SHUT THE FUCK UP FAGGOT. Did you EVEN READ THE STARTING STRENGTH BOOK??? Mark LITERALLY says you're not following the program if you're stalling and tells you to eat more even if you become a lardass.

STARTING STRENGTH IS SHIT because the FUNDAMENTAL DESIGN OF IT assumes you can keep adding weight after 3 weeks by eating like a fatass.

>>42610022
But going by the numbers, as someone above said, it ends up being 55 lbs of muscle gain in 4 months

>>42610131
>Mark LITERALLY says you're not following the program if you're stalling and tells you to eat more even if you become a lardass
He also says you should only follow SS for 6 months or so.

>>42610111
The entire point of the program is to get stronk fast.

>>42609766
Getting fat don't have anything to do with a lifting routine.. It's diet and cardio. If you lift with the most greatest routine in the world, but still ate like shit and do GOMAD meme/dirty bulk then yes, you will still look like shit.

-Do your cardio at least 4~5 times a week, yes, even of you're bulking. Don't b lazy.
-Eat right, study up macros. And eat at a 200~500 caloric surplus, not like 1000 calories.

>>42610111
Is 5x5 a better beginner program

>>42610204
>le 5x5 meme
It's literally SS but with more stalling.

>>42610217
OK

What would you recommend then anon

>>42610237
OATS AND SQUATS

>>42610237
In case you can't realize it >>42610217
Is a retard and you shouldn't listen to it. 5x5 and SS are both fine if you dont fall for gomad

if you're doing 3x a week just switch to phraks greyskull or add accessories to stronglifts, do bench/ohp first, and only squat once-2x a week.

>>42610143
> He also says you should only follow SS for 6 months or so.
where does he say this? my recollection was he says you should follow until you can no longer make progress. theoretically this could last anywhere from forever to a few weeks

>>42609766

okay let's get the obvious out of the way first, image is a joke/troll
>only adding 50 to a bench
>hair length

But for the people who are scared from seeing things like Zach and shit, let's talk about SS for aesthetics real quick:

first question: how long do you think it takes to look good? 6 months? if it was that easy, everyone would do it.

It takes ~2years natty lifting to look good, and that's with proper diet and rest. If those three things (diet, training, rest) are all good, you WILL look good in 1.5-2 years.

Doing Starting Strength for 3-6 months will NOT make you look good, that's true. But neither will doing ANY program. Someone who is doing a bro split for a year might look better than someone who's been doing SS 6 months + PPL for 6months, but give them another year and the brosplit will lag.

Starting Strength is the BEST program for novices, hands down. It builds your strength faster than any other program, adding 15 pounds a week to your squat and 15 pounds every two weeks to your other major lifts. And you NEED strength to be able to transition into a hypertrophy program.

A lot of DYELs will ask what the "SS of aesthetics" is, and the answer is that SS is the SS of aesthetics.

>b-but muh T rex mode!

Two things. One: yes. Your quads are going to grow. A lot. They're a huge muscle group and you're hitting them 3x/week. What do you expect them to do?

Two: almost NO one on /fit/ actually has ever done SS by the book. Everyone does their own little half-assed homebrew version of it. In the actual book, Rip recommends doing accessory lifts for the upper body after getting comfortable with the big 3. He also says that you can transition to a light squat in the middle of the week so you're not squatting heavy 3x/week but no one on /fit/ knows this because no one has actually read the book.

>b-but muh GOMAD

GOMAD is for SKELETON MEN for the very beginning of their training. That is IT. It's also not necessary to do it during SS.

>>42611526

to elaborate on this:

>A lot of DYELs will ask what the "SS of aesthetics" is, and the answer is that SS is the SS of aesthetics.

Let me be clear, I'm not calling SS an aesthetics program. I'm saying that for ANY aesthetics program, you need to be strong FIRST. The fastest way to get strong is through SS. Therefore, for newbies who ask the question, "I want to get aesthetic. What program should I start with?" the answer is SS, despite it NOT being an aesthetics-based program.

With proper ancillary exercises (dips, chins, hammer curls, skullcrushers), minimal aesthetic gains on SS ARE possible.

>>42611538
> I'm saying that for ANY aesthetics program, you need to be strong FIRST
Why? This statement isn't backed by science. Hypertrophy routines builds stength and muscle. Beginners grow like crazy on any kind of training. Starting with a strength program is only necessary if your goal is stength.

>>42611599

>muh science

DYEL detected. Methodology for studying ANY type of muscle growth, &c. is suspect. Experience and common sense trumps studies every time.

If you can lift heavier weight, you will damage your muscle tissue more. Every child knows this. The heavier the weight you can lift, the more hypertrophy you can attain.

> Beginners grow like crazy on any kind of training.

And once those newbie gains slow down you're going to want to be very strong so you can grow your muscles on a hypertrophy program.

>>42609897
this
I looked fucking great 6 months after doing strength training even with beginner-tier numbers
its not until I started eating straight up garbage everyday that my body went to shit

>>42611628
> Experience and common sense trumps studies every time
No it doesn't because everyone has different experiences.
> And once those newbie gains slow down you're going to want to be very strong so you can grow your muscles on a hypertrophy program
This logic doesn't follow nor hold up. A strength program isn't necessary for a beginner unless their is goal is strength and there's zero proof to the contrary. A hypertrophy program will build muscle mass as good as or better than a strength program.

>implying strong as fuck doesn't equal aesthetic as fuck

>>42611440
>Theoretically take forever to stop getting linear progression

Brb benching for 3 years worth of linear progression, will report back with 3,000lb bench press

>>42611669
If you had micro plates small enough you could theoretically stay on SS forever, adding .1lb each tiem xD

>>42611653

>No it doesn't because everyone has different experiences.

You completely missed the point and don't know what you're talking about.

>A hypertrophy program will build muscle mass as good as or better than a strength program.

This is how i know you are a complete moron. Of course a hypertrophy program builds muscle better than a strength program. That's not the issue at hand. What I am saying, which I will spell out very carefully for you because you're obviously slow, is this:

3-6 months of SS + 1.5-1.75 years of a hypertrophy program will result in a more aesthetic body than 2 years of hypertrophy.

>>42611755

THEREFORE, for newbies asking about what "aesthetics program" they should run, if they have never lifted before, the answer will always be "SS" despite it not being a hypertrophy program.

>>42611665

it doesn't. got a 5'9 170 lb friend who has reasonably impressive numbers on all his oly lifts at the gym (400+ low-bar squat, 315 front squat, 285 bench etc), but still looks dyel in his normal clothes.

if you put me and him next to eachother at a bar, I still look bigger even though I barely bench 2 plate and dont really squat very often. might be because im 6'1, but yeah i also just have bigger arms/traps/shoulders from brosplitting it up

>>42611755
> 3-6 months of SS + 1.5-1.75 years of a hypertrophy program will result in a more aesthetic body than 2 years of hypertrophy
Training in a variety of rep ranges likely stimulates muscle growth better than training in the same rep range. Beyond this, there's no exact science so you're pretty much spouting bullshit.

>>42611794

False. 3 months SS + 1.75 yrs hypertrophy yields better results than 1.75 yrs hypertrophy + 3 months SS

>>42609991
Just because he may or may not be using a juiced up dude as a related pic doesn't mean his point is entirely moot. Gear can get you size but it can't get you proportion like a proper lifting program, especially like one that's designed for strength. Faggot.

>>42611773

> 5'9 170 lb
>285 bench
>Looks DYEL

BUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUULLLLLSHIT

>>42611811
[citation needed]

>>42611849

every CBT thread with people going "was on a bro split for a year, now trying to get my lifts up"

>>42611835
Lol, yeah...

>167% Bench
>looks DYEL

>1k club
>looks DYEL

>>42611773
Either you're lying about something, or he is

>>42611831
>Just because he may or may not be using a juiced up dude as a related pic doesn't mean his point is entirely moot.

Yes you unbelievably stupid fuck.
It does in fact make their fucking point 500% moot.

ANY STUPID GODDAMNED PROGRAM WILL MOTHERFUCKING WORK IF YOURE ON GEAR
OCCASIONALLY DOING A PUSHUP AND A PULLUP WILL GET YOU GAINS WHEN YOURE ON GEAR

>>42611849

it's common sense. if you spend a year and a half lifting a campbell's soup can, you're wasting your time. Lifting heavier weights for a year and a half will yield more muscle gains than lifting lighter weights for a year and a half.

i can't believe i have to explain this to you man come on think for like fifteen mississippi seconds before you post.

>>42611890
Having to resort to shit like that outright states that you're either full of shit or know you're fucking wrong and need to play games and hope that the person you're arguing with is a retard.

>>42611907

>having to resort to that

Resort to what? Common sense? God forbid...

>>42610085
stop being logical anon

>>42611887
LOL calm down there gene shallot. 500% quite the arbitrary percentage there. You can look at somebody and tell if they don't do pull-ups like you can tell if somebody skips lower body day. It's fucking simple. You can be hopped way the fuck up on gear and still develop muscle imbalances, let alone neglect entire muscle groups. If the dude in the picture had any egregious muscle imbalances you'd see them like you do in a bodybuilder. You just have no idea what you're looking at. You've probably been lifting for how long? A year at most?

>>42611890
> Lifting heavier weights for a year and a half will yield more muscle gains than lifting lighter weights for a year and a half
No, it won't.

>>42609991
Jesus Christ you have no working idea of how steroids work whatsoever.

Steroids literally can make you fat. This is one massive side effects of steroids. Steroids have medical uses. One of the largest side effects of any anabolic steroids is that it will make you gain weight. Generally people who have to take steroids are who are out of shape shit eaters, and don't exercise. Do you know what the steroids do to them? Makes them balloon in size, and not in muscle. They don't suddenly become Arnold, they just get really, really, really fat.

Just fucking google "steroid fat side effects" so you can see clear medical evidence refuting your asinine ideas about the world.

>>42611958
I'm sorry but...SS and the other BABBYS FIRST powerlifting programs all have major fucking embalances inherent to them.
This isn't even up for debate at this point. It's a fact.

The guy in your post is not only on litteral grams of gear and god knows what else, he also obviously does a bodybuilder type program. Why? Because bigger muscles, no muscle imbalances, and strength endurance is DEMANDED to perform at the highest levels of real sports.

You can fucking point to and tell what fuckwad only does "the big lifts" and fuck all else and see how horribly unbalance they are.

>>42611965

All other things (rep range, rest, diet) being exactly equal? Yes it absolutely will.

>>42611984
That doesn't even make fucking sense you stupid fuck.
What the fuck are you even talking about.

>>42611984
> All other things (rep range, rest, diet) being exactly equal
I seriously hope you're not trying to compare a 1rm vs 1 rep of a light weight. No one ever compares rep ranges that way. A strength rep range will not yield better muscle gains than a hypertrophy rep range.

>>42611975
>Steroids literally can make you fat.
You can go sit in the fucking stupid corner.
No I'm serious.
Go on.
Get.

>>42611990

I want you to tell me in your own words how on earth lifting lighter weights will yield equal or superior muscle mass gains to lifting heavy weights.

>>42611995

That is exactly the opposite of what I'm saying. I'm saying benching 180 pounds for 4 sets of 8 will yield superior muscle mass gains than benching the bar for 4 sets of 8

This isn't really even debateable.

>>42612001
Because muscle gains are to an extent determined by volume, not lifting a heavier weight.

>>42611975

This. Steroids will 100% make you gain lots of fat if you aren't lifting like a madman on them.

Even then, you can 100% put on a ton of fat if you massively overeat no matter how much gear you are on.

Steroids are not a injection away from a perfect body. All they do is make you build muscle mass. If you are going several thousand calories over your TDEE you'll still gain plenty of fat.

>>42612009
Strength rep range, all else equal, does not build muscle mass better than hypertrophy. There's countless scientific literature on the subiect.

>>42611997
>I don't know what I'm talking about so let me just shit post words!

Do you think every single anabolic steroid is tren? It's obviously pointless because you are outsing yourself as an idiot, but what do you think for example the hormone testosterone does for the human body? Do you just assume it's a muscle building machine that makes you extremely jacked?

>>42612001
>>42612009
Are you the honestly the fucking people who sit here and recomend that people read the sticky and that they should do a sub shit tier powerlifing program that's ripped off of a superior program that's designed for highschool football players and no one else?

I"m being serious.

No wonder people ignore the sticky and just come here to show off in/gawk at cbt threads and shitpost.

>>42612012
>>42612022

oh my fucking god

this is the most retarded thing i've ever had to respond to

what i am saying, is doing a hypertrophy program using HEAVIER WEIGHT will yield you more muscle mass gains than doing THE EXACT SAME PROGRAM BUT WITH LIGHTER WEIGHT

holy FUCKING shit you are so dense

>>42612024
Show me three anabolic compounds that lead to fat gain.

I'll wait.

>>42611997

Yes they can you fucking retard.Test will totally help you burn fat if you combine it with a reasonable diet (proportional to the exercise you are doing), but they'll also make you hungry af and if you eat too much over TDEE you'll gain tons of fat no matter what your T levels.

Plenty of guys with crazy high natural T end up fat as fuck because they still eat way too much. Why would steroids work any differently?

>>42612034
The most anabolic compound to human beings is insulin and it causes weight gain.

>>42612034

Test makes you hungry
Hungry makes you eat
If you eat too much you gain fat

You can't just eat like a pig because you took T. You still need to eat proportionally to the exercise you're doing.

>>42612033
Why do you think this would be the case? Hypertrophy also builds strength and is subject to linear progress and rate or progress on a strength routine can be wildly different from person to person. No reason to assume starting with a strength routine would be better and you don't have a shred of evidence to back that up. I'm not dense. You're utterly clueless.

>>42612034
Testosterone not only makes you over consume, it also makes you produce estrogen, which makes you fat.

>>42612052

>Why do you think this would be the case?

>>doing a hypertrophy program using HEAVIER WEIGHT will yield you more muscle mass gains than doing THE EXACT SAME PROGRAM BUT WITH LIGHTER WEIGHT

why the FUCK would it NOT be the case???

i'm 100% convinced you're trolling at this point

>>42612033
Using weight that would make doing 8 reps relatively hard is an unstated fact that everyone knows.

That's just how it is.

I honestly have no fucking idea what you're talking about and where you get the "as long as it's this rep range no matter how much weight you lift" thing from.

I really don't.

Did you at one point believe that this was the case?

So what aesthetic program should I switch to after doing SS for 6 months?

>>42612052
Not him but mathematics don't agree with you. Common sense if you ever lifted doesn't agree with you I.e a person doing 3x8-12 plus shitloads of irrelevant accessories will not advance quicker than a 3x5 routine with 1

>>42611981

>Impying strength endurance can't be found in powerlifters.
>powerlifting programs all have major fucking embalances inherent to them.

A fact? Please, point it to me. That wasn't even my picture. I just can't get over how absolutely idiotic you fucking sound. I bet you can't even pull-up a fucking plate. Probably sitting around with a bench of 125% but it's still 2 plates so it's cool, right? LOL.

>>42612065
PPL/PPL is the current go to.

>>42612052
>Why would lifting heavier weights for the same reps as lighter weights yield better results

Anon are you retarded?

You are implying that I can do jumping jacks to look like Arnold.

>>42612060
I assumed you weren't a complete retard, my mistake. You're either shifting goalposts or explain why you're suddenly comparing a hypertrophy program just using more weight? If you're using more weight you're using less reps. Less reps more weight =/= more muscle gains if both are in hypertrophy range.

>>42612073
> Common sense
opinion discarded
>>42612086
you need to familiarize yourself with the terms strength, hypertrophy and endurance rep ranges. Nobody implied that.

>>42612061

i honestly can't even decipher your post dude

im gonna explain myself very carefully one last time

>controlling for everything, i.e. everything else is the same: programming, diet, rest, hormones, VOLUME (rep ranges) etc., lifting HEAVIER weight will damage muscle more than lifting LIGHTER weight and therefore result in more muscle gains

>therefore, it is best to lift the heaviest weight you can comfortably lift for hypertrophy reps if your goal is aesthetics

>therefore, a strength base is important for a hypertrophy program

that's it. that's what I'm saying, and none of it is wrong and you haven't offered ANY evidence or logic to prove otherwise.

>>42612035
So if you eat normally and take test you will burn fat? Like fucking EVERYONE FUCKING EVER HAS SAID PERIOD!!
I want you to show me three fucking people who say that steroids will make you fucking fat.

>>42612044
Pedantic fuckwad.

>>42612049
So if you don't eat too much...you will lose weight. That's what happens when you take test.
You have to make eating a fucking part time job and do NOTHING ELSE to put on weight with gear.

>>42612078
>>Impying strength endurance can't be found in powerlifters.
Not unless they fucking work for it you fucking moron.
That comes from shit loads of fucking volume. Not a few goddamned max lifts and fuck all else. Not even cardio.
That's fucking major powerlifters.
This isn't even up for debate.

>>powerlifting programs all have major fucking embalances inherent to them.
The powerlifting programs shilled here have MAJOR fucking embalances in them and when people point them out they say YOURE STUPID FOR NOT REALIZING THAT IN THE FIRST PLACE then drop the subject altogether.

>>42612102
>you need to familiarize yourself with the terms strength, hypertrophy and endurance rep ranges.

Except I actually lift weights and you need to familiarize yourself with the concept of bullshit.

Lifting weights makes you grow. You don't lift 1 more rep after 5 and suddenly your muscles explode open. The only things that really matter are volume and intensity. If you work with a decent volume at a decent intensity you will always get bigger and stronger assuming you eat food. Everything else you are saying is irrelevant because it's dumb bullshit implying somehow increasing intensity with the same volume won't yield better results.

>>42611526
really wish people would just read the book before spouting their shit
>hurr wheres the bicep work
what are chinups?

>>42612121
>Pedantic fuckwad

?????????????????????

You said to name an anabolic compound that causes weight gain. Insulin is anabolic. It is not only anabolic, there is not a single more anabolic substance known to man, and it causes weight gain. It quite literally perfectly fits the criteria you set forth. Are you daft?

>>42612107
> lifting HEAVIER weight will damage muscle more than lifting LIGHTER weight and therefore result in more muscle gains
And you're wrong as nobody is talking about lifting a soup can or any other hyperbole you've used as the common vernacular used for comparison is strength vs hypertrophy and strength reps does not build muscle better than hypertrophy reps. Everything past this is your autism.
> a strength base is important for a hypertrophy program
Hypertrophy builds strength. It's not important unless your goal is maximizing strength. Beginners rate of strength growth is wildly variable so it's inaccurate to claim it be generally important to start with building strength and there are other factors that make strength routines poor for beginners.

>>42611887
>OCCASIONALLY DOING A PUSHUP AND A PULLUP WILL GET YOU GAINS WHEN YOURE ON GEAR
desu doing nothing would get you gains on enough gear...

>>42612107
1.A strength base is not important and is something litterally pulled from the ass of some fat fuck retard who has a program to shill

2."controlling for everything else" in this instance means creating some ridiculous and deeply idiotic exercise program that exists solely to prove your deeply stupid assertion correct.

3.Everyone who is anyone in strength trainign and athletics starts with one of two things. Calisthenics or a general bodybuilding type weight lifting program. Period. You're out of your tiny fucking mind if you think otherwise.


Litterally everything you've posted thus far has been stupid. Just fucking stupid.

>>42612125
> The only things that really matter are volume and intensity
And you're wrong. Volume does matter but what matters most is taking those reps to fatigue. Higher intensity =/= bigger muscles than hypertrophy reps.

>>42612102
Common sense is important child you don't even lift similar to the dyel sport pseudoscientists that make studies about force production during bench on a bosu ball.

Just so you know sports science is majority faulty science and they're not using enough sample sizes sample sizes or have faulty methodology now run along with your joke degree

>>42612132
I mean steroids.
We both mean steroids.
This entire thing is about steroids.
You're hiding behind pedantics because you've revealed yourself as a fucking buffoon.

You can go away now. You've lost this fight.
BUH BUH INSULIN IS AN ANABOLIC ME SO CLEVER U SO DUMB
Don't go there.
It's beneath you.
And I'm not going to follow.

>>42612142
That's my point.
When people point out people on even 250mg of test and say "this program works" I laugh at them.
Sitting on their couch and sometimes scratching their ass will get them more gains then a dedicated hard working consistent natural who busts ass every session.
That's a fact.

>>42612135
>strength reps does not build muscle better than hypertrophy reps.

motherfucker, i KNOW that

i KNOW that hypertrophy reps is better for building muscle

i'm saying that hypertrophy reps WITH MORE WEIGHT is better for building muscle than hypertrophy reps WITH LESS WEIGHT

this isn't even up for debate, it's just a fucking fact

>waaah waaah soup can hyperbole

it ILLUSTRATES the point that it's better to bench 225lbsx4x8 than 135lbsx4x8 which is better than 45lbsx4x8 which is better than 2lbsx4x8 etc.

>Hypertrophy builds strength.

not as fast as a linear progression

>It's not important unless your goal is maximizing strength

Maximizing strength SHOULD be your goal for the first three months of your lifting career because it will maximise your aesthetic gains in the longer run. If you spend three months getting your lifts up, the next 21 months you spend lifting for hypertrophy will be done with heavier weight, which results in MORE MUSCLE GAIN than if you spent 24 months lifting for hypertrophy with less weight.

File: cbMAY.jpg (274KB, 906x912px) Image search: [Google]

274KB, 906x912px

>>42611526
This is me after 2 years of structured training and dieting. Just fucking take steroids. None of you have been lifting for longer than a year and it's obvious. Lifting is a fucking meme, you worthless, naive incel.

>>42612177
Anon.
Let me stop you there.

Even with that strength base you keep fucktarding on about in place.
You won't have the sheer work capacity required to exploit it.

You'll have to drop your max down very low to get there and you'll essentially be playing catch up.

>>42610237
Fierce 5 beginner routine is good.

>>42612143
>1.A strength base is not important

This is wrong unless you believe that lifting the bar will get you more muscle than lifting heavy weight. And if you do you're a retard

You accuse the idea (strength base being important) of being "pulled from the ass of some retard" but you pull the opposite idea (strength base not mattering) out of your own ass and furthermore your idea isn't even supported by common sense (more weight = more gains)

>2."controlling for everything else" in this instance means creating some ridiculous and deeply idiotic exercise program that exists solely to prove your deeply stupid assertion correct.

You stupid dense mother fucker. The only reason I said that was because I mentioned lifting more weight results in more gains than lifting less weight and some retard took it to mean I was saying strength programs result in more muscle gain than hypertrophy programs, which was not what I was saying.


>3.Everyone who is anyone in strength trainign and athletics starts with one of two things. Calisthenics or a general bodybuilding type weight lifting program.

"b-but jeff seid never did SS and look at him!"

If you have a goal body in mind and you have a similar frame and genetics to that person and you copy their routine and it works for you, that's great.

But if you're a newbie who comes to /fit/ and asks the simple question of "what program should I do to look better" the answer is generally do SS until you are strong and then do a hypertrophy program for 1.5-2 years.

>>42612171
>I mean steroids

Then say steroids. I wasn't even going to say insulin, but you said anabolic compound.

In fact you are fucking retarded. Your entire argument right now seems to be centered around insulin not being a PED or something. Insulin can be taken as a PED. Insulin is an amazing PED. Insulin will work better than taking almost any anabolic steroid, especially something like pure testosterone because it's amazing anabolic effects.

There is nothing pedantic about it. If you used Insulin while lifting weights and did it in a smart regulated manner so you didn't overdose you would experience massive size gains and get absurd amounts of muscle. If you were not trying to look absolutely shredded, you would not need a single other PED.

>That's my point.

Your point is wrong. Doing a single pushup while using 250mg of test is not going to magically get you gains. You would literally get an order of magnitude more gains eating food and lifting weights normally. Considering your comments about insulin and how hurrdurr steroids automatically make you huge you clearly don't know how any of these things work.

Please go read about how Insulin works, how testosterone works, what synthetic testosterone introduced into a person does, and what other steroids are period.

>>42612187

After 1-2 weeks of getting used to higher volume work with slightly lower weight your body will adapt and you'll be working with more intensity and the same volume as someone who has trained high volume low intensity for their time lifting.

>>42612205
Lol you have no clue what you're talking about. There was a recent study done that proved once and for all steroids make you big without trying. Dudes on 600mg of test a week sitting on their asses all day built more muscle than natties training their ass off. Get fucked you clueless faggot.

>>42612164
Your common sense is a sample size of 1 you cumquat
>>42612177
>If you spend three months getting your lifts up, the next 21 months you spend lifting for hypertrophy will be done with heavier weight
that isn't true. the rate a beginner builds strength is wildly variable and doesn't translate directly to hypertrophy reps either. furthermore hypertrophy builds strength decently too so there's no reason to conclude a beginner would leap frog them in hypertrophy and there is no evidence of such anywhere.

>>42612201
>This is wrong unless you believe that lifting the bar will get you more muscle than lifting heavy weight. And if you do you're a retard

I'm not going any further.
Everything after this is you using hyperbole to fail to prove your stupid as fuck point.

You see, in general weight lifting, we put more weight on the bar. We don't just lift a light as fuck weight for a bit then stop.

People will lift heavy, till they get "DA PUMP" or till they have lactic acid build up stop then do it all over again.

They get strength.
They get strength endurance
They get mass
They get better overall work capacity
They loser weight.

You, you stupid cunt, are all about basic peak strength in a handful of lifts and thats it. Which is absolutely fucking useless because you're not fucking fit enough to fully exploit it.

>>42610085
ss + gomad isn't just a lifting program though

>>42612223
>There was a study
>No source
>Still hasn't addressed not knowing anything about insulin, what it is or what it does

Sure thing.

>>42612224
>that isn't true. the rate a beginner builds strength is wildly variable and doesn't translate directly to hypertrophy reps either. furthermore hypertrophy builds strength decently too so there's no reason to conclude a beginner would leap frog them in hypertrophy and there is no evidence of such anywhere.

For a new lifter, the fastest way to gain strength is through SS. There is no more effective program for gaining strength quickly for someone who is new to lifting. A newbie will make strength gains no matter what he does, that's true. But he will only make optimal strength gains on a 3x5 linear progression for the first 3-6 months of lifting.

>>42612226
>You, you stupid cunt, are all about basic peak strength in a handful of lifts and thats it. Which is absolutely fucking useless because you're not fucking fit enough to fully exploit it.

I'm not advocating to stay on SS for three years you absolute mong. I'm saying do SS until you can lift heavy fucking weights, and then do an aesthetics program. It will be a better use of your time in the long run.

>>42612205
You embarassing retard.

All of that fucking shit just to hide that you don't know the first goddamned thing about steroids.

You can sit on your fucking ass and gain more mass then someone who works consistently in the same timeframe.

This is not up for debate.
This is a fact.

You will gain muscle
You will lose fat

This is common fucking knowledge that even a 15 year old highschool kid knows.

And yes 250 goddamnd mg of test WILL in fact get you gains beyond what a natural can get and you dont have to do a goddamned thing for them.

You are fucking wrong. What's worse, you're fucking stupid.

>>42612268
You keep bringing up insulin knowing that it has nothing to do with anything.

Why?

Because you're a fucking idiot and you know that you're wrong.

You've lost this fight.

Go away.

>>42612181
Do you even lift, you Gainslet.

>>42612271
>this is fact blablabla
>Still has said nothing of actual substance
>Still hasn't addressed what the problem is with insulin as a PED

???

>>42611975
Depends on what gear you are on you dumb fucking shit.
When iam on a Test, Tren, winstrol cykle i can eat any fucking thing i want and not gain shit in bodyfat.

Even when iam on my bulkcykle of Test, Deca, dboll its superhard to get noticibly fat. Water sure fat hard.

>>42612289
You're a dumbfuck
And no one cares about insulin except you.
You are literally the only person in this entire thread who gives a damned about this because you are ignorant and that is all you have.

>>42612284
>You keep bringing up insulin blblabla

????????????

https://www.steroid.com/Insulin.php
https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn1129-athletes-may-be-increasingly-abusing-insulin/

>The effects of insulin are initiated by its binding to a receptor present in the cell membrane. The receptor molecule contains an α- and β subunits. Two molecules are joined to form what is known as a homodimer. Insulin binds to the α-subunits of the homodimer, which faces the extracellular side of the cells.


?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

>>42612269
> For a new lifter, the fastest way to gain strength is through SS
but nobody is arguing that. the logic is it's best to start with strength which assumes that this will perfectly translate into starting with a heavier weight when the beginner graduates to a hypertrophy program. this isn't true because for one there's flat out no evidence of it and for another rep ranges don't directly translate. you also must consider that a hypertrophy routine is likely to be different than a strength routine so again, a strength routine won't directly translate because it's geared towards specificity in getting big numbers in a small group of lifts whereas hypertrophy tends to be focused on hitting muscles from all angles.

>>42612307
see
>>42612303

>>42612311

Just because it doesn't "directly translate" doesn't mean that it won't translate at all. If you're generally strong, you can lift heavier things for longer. You will take a couple weeks to adapt to the volume, and then you will be lifting heavier than if you were on a hypertrophy program the entire time.

>>42612301
>When I am on Tren I don't gain fat

???????????????????????????????????????????????

>>42612303
Of course, because apparently nobody here knows anything about steroids. Anon literally replied to me saying that he doesn't gain weight eating a bunch while taking Tren as if he is proving some amazing point, but then I shouldn't be surprised that nobody in here knows absolutely anything about steroids, anabolics, or anything on the subject beyond taking them like some dude at the gym told you too.

>>42612319
This is why dudes like you take steroids for 2 or 3 years and still can't gain any size and wonder how people like me are fucking massive from taking them. You have no idea how any of them work and just assume they are all magic that you ingest and then balloon by using.

>>42609766
>question
is SS fine if I'm trying to lose weight and develop strength as well, I've been fucking around for about a month in the gym now while on a calorie deficit but i want to switch to an actual routine and more cardio

>>42612324
No you won't.
As a matter of fact it will take years of consistent training for someone who's peaked in babby's first powerlifting program to be able use their max strength for the required number of reps to do anything.
It takes a while to build work capacity and the body strong and endurant enough to tank the workouts required to lift heavy shit for long periods of time.

And by then their strength ceiling, unless they maintain it, will have dropped.

Meaning that the only thing they've actually done is waste their fucking time with a maximum strength program rather then a general weight training program WHICH INCLUDES STRENGTH TRAINING.

Max strength without strength endurance and work capacity is a fucking parlor trick.

>>42612329
>Of course, because apparently nobody here knows anything about steroids.
Insulin isn't steroids anon.

http://spotmebro.com/steroids-natural-choose/

Stop being fucking stupid and just accept that you made a fucking fool of yourself.
You're fucking anonymous. Just slink back into the big sea of piss and pretend it wasn't you.

>>42612345
Fucking idiot.

>>42612324
>you will be lifting heavier than if you were on a hypertrophy program the entire time
there's no reason to conclude this nor any evidence of it. you eo realize the disparity of difference in strength between hypertrophy and strength routines isn't that big and familiarity with a style of lifting for a beginner i'd personally say is more important.

>>42612329
You are fucking stupid you know that?

Thats why in my post i said: DEPENDS ON WHAT GEAR YOU ARE ON.

You know nothing about of steriods work.

File: rare klokov.jpg (27KB, 600x400px) Image search: [Google]

27KB, 600x400px

>>42609766
All programs work but not all programs are created equal.
I recommend to everyone on /fit/ to watch jeff nippard videos on actual muscle building (>hurdur manlet)

The optimal path a natural should take is to train all body part at least twice a week and studies have shown that a full body routine is best. SS is bad because it has you benching too little and absolutely doing no press work. It leaves you with mediocre arms. And no chinups are not the end all solution. If you want arms you have to curl. If you want shoulders you have to press. SS will however give you a strong lowerbody.

The optimal routine is to train with both strength rep ranges and volume rep ranges. Full body and having a cardio day once a week.

Monday x Wednesday x Friday x Sunday

Squats OHP Squats 35min walk or 3 mile jog
F.Squats Db press F. Squats OHP
Bench Lateral Raises Bench Db press
Dips Weighted Situps Dips Weighted Situps
Pendlays Hanging leg raises Pendlays Curls
Pullups Deads Pullups
Curls

I'd switch bench with db bench and make dips the strength range since I think bench is absolutely a meme.

>>42612268
Google it yourself, monkey. Me not spoon-feeding you information does not mean you win the argument, that you're right, or that the study doesn't exist. All it means is I don't have the energy or time to invest that much into your worthless ignorant ass. I'm not even the same person you were autistically and worthlessly arguing with either, you clueless dyel 6-month lifter.

>>42612287
Can almost guarantee I out lift you, manlet dyel fuck. Lifting is a meme.

>>42612381
Wow fuck you 4chan for not ignoring the white space

>Monday
------------------------
Squats
F.Squats
Bench
Dips
Pendlays
Pullups


>Wednesday
-------------------------
OHP
Db presses
lateral raises
Weighted situps
Hanging leg raises
Deads
Curls & Chinups

>Friday
----------------------
Squats
F.Squats
Bench
Dips
Pendlays
Pullups

>Sunday
--------------------------
35min walk or 3 mile jog
OHP
Db press
Weighted situps
Curls & chinups


I'd actually recommend switching bench with db bench and make dips the strength range movement since bench truly is a meme.

>>42612181
you look like the sheriff from stranger things

File: IMG_20170619_203840.jpg (427KB, 547x998px) Image search: [Google]

427KB, 547x998px

>>42612406
Who the fuck I look like now?

>>42612415
Every geared up faggot who fucks up pct and ends up with bitch tits, smaller muscles then he started with, impotent, and has raisin nuts.

>>42612433
Cool, cause I'm natty, you jealous, tiny, dyel.

>>42612443
Uh huh...

>>42612453
Soon I'll be actually on steroids and become a literal beef parade. 6'4 too. What then, you fucking manlet dyel soft cock?

>>42612433
Fucking up PCT...

You dont need and actual PCT with nolvadex, arimidex etc if you just end your cykles with 4weeks of 250T/Week.

He looks fine exept he has absolut shit back and core.

>>42612181
>>42612415

>Unironically manbunning

Never gonna make it.

>>42612415
how come your jaw got wider

>>42612464

>become a literal beef parade

Is this a gay thing? I have to imagine this is a gay thing.

Tell me more about how a literal parade of man beef is going to penetrating your every roided up hole anon.

File: IMG_20170812_164405.jpg (605KB, 1200x1600px) Image search: [Google]

605KB, 1200x1600px

>>42612468
My back is fine.
>>42612478
Neck strain in the first pic had me excessively protruding my head forward in a mongoloid fashion which made my neck look smaller which causes the illusion of a small jaw.

File: IMG_20170730_130636.jpg (615KB, 1200x1600px) Image search: [Google]

615KB, 1200x1600px

>>42612472
My haircut is sick stfu

>>42612495


There is literally no way you had this explanation handy unless you thought of it prior to posting to deny you are roiding.

>>42612505
Or you're just desperate to pin me as a roider because of your mediocre physique and how jealous you are that I'm better than you, faggot. Wait till I actually start roiding soon, bub. I'll send you progress pics so you can masturbate.

>>42612503

NIGGAS SPORTING A NAZI FADE MANBUN

I'm done. I'm fucking done. I'm too young to die laughing at mr. literal meat parade in my asshole.

>>42612415
Like an upset sheriff from stranger things

>>42612516
Mire my jawline and sick haircut, manlet

>>42612181
>2 years of structured training and dieting

Gluing a bunch of popcicle sticks together is a structure. That doesn't make it a good one. Just because your popcicle bridge crumbled into dust at the first singn of a matchbox car doesn't mean everyone else has a shit structure.

>>42612503

Dude, please legit shave your head and start over. Your goofed hard.

File: IMG_20170726_171832.jpg (1MB, 1952x2592px) Image search: [Google]

1MB, 1952x2592px

>>42612495
No its absolut shit, sorry m8 but its true.

Pic related is a good back.

>>42612415
Like a fatter, angrier version of the sherif from stranger things.

>>42612478 he got fat. You can even see in >>42612495 he has literal back fat

>>42612555
Benching 340lbs, ohping 225, and deadlifting 495 is achievable with shit structure, right. Do you even bench 2plate? I bet you I've ran more programs and done mountains more research on strength training than you, you dyel fucking manlet.

>>42611879

Nah man, no lies here. Guy has insane dedication and is meticulous about his programs and shit. Maybe it's just that he's cutting right now, but if you see him at the gym you honestly would just think he's a normal dude whos relatively fit

No crazy vascularity or definition, just very strong and dedicated to his gym sessions

>>42612568
I'm natty though, you roiding faggot. I'll show you my back in 4 months after running test. Cool that you have way better lighting than me though.

>>42612571
In the skinnier pic I was 210lbs, in the other I was 220lbs, so no. I didn't get fat.

>>42612468
what about clomid?

>>42612527
you must be a miscer lmao

>>42609968
It's very clearly in reverse order
Unbelievable weight gain aside,
>hair grows two feet in 4 months
>lose all melanin in 4 months

>>42612600
You need NOTHING if you do 250T/week and maintain you diet.

Only time you need pct is if you been doing insane amounts of Dboll etc like 100mgs/day coupled with like 1000T/week and stop without a low Test cruze.

IF you have a decent diet ofc.

File: oldmandrinkingandlaughing.gif (1MB, 207x207px) Image search: [Google]

1MB, 207x207px

>>42612181
2 and half years? you sure?

>>42609766
>pixles around his belt/underwear band
>pixels around his arms
totally not shooped

>>42612181
have you been bulking at a consistent rate of .5-1 lb a week?

also cut, you would look really good if you did.

File: received_10155720034107018.jpg (82KB, 1574x1532px) Image search: [Google]

82KB, 1574x1532px

>>42612586
Look bro its not about the light or roids you just fucked up your diet and back/core superhard.

Learn from it instead of living in a state of denial, you got fat and not the good kind of bulkfat you just got fat.

Pic is my complete natty back end of bulk.

>>42612771
Thank you for your steroid-adled brain's insight. I out lift you and you have better lighting. See you in 4 months.

>>42612737
340 bench, 225 ohp, 495 deadlift, the fuck do you think?
>>42612747
No because I'd be 300lbs+ by now if I did, obese as fucking hell.

>>42610000
Do you mean athletes who train other sports?

>>42609766
how the fuck are is arms so small with a diddy that high? his forearms should at least have decent size but without the fat they're as big as before

>>42612836

Lol what a jealous faggot

File: 46510ce7808162c929b82cd61f8b6644--bodybuilding-women-bodybuilding-motivation.jpg (36KB, 209x466px) Image search: [Google]

36KB, 209x466px

>>42609766

Gotta have that strength base first lads. Even Arnold attributes his success to doing years of mainly barbell training / powerlifting before he switched mainly to BB. Who are you gonna believe about this, some retard from /fit/ or this guy?

You aren't gonna be building shit if you are benching 160 for reps and curling 20 pound dumbbells.

>>42609766
bullshit, that's 12-24 months of hair growth in what 4 months?

for the record I think GOMAD is hilarious (also generally bad), and started lifting again splitting each session into upper/lower etc.

>>42612181
Where are your traps senpai

Also please tell me what you did so that I can avoid it pls

>>42613089
The guy is literlly a DYEL with a shitty form and horrible diet saying he can outlift me, then blames it on lightning and pretty much everything else then his own fuckupps.

Then he be all like "Ima run test for 4month and it Will Change everything!!!"

Cant fucking wait to see those T only progress pics...

>>42609991
stfu you dumb fuck.. this guy looks natty af.. look at those shoulders for fucks sake.

>>42610237
stop looking for recommendations and hit the gym fatass.. download a workout app. pick one program in the beginner section / stick to it

>>42611599
Alright, champ. Let's see how 'aesthetic' you look doing 2000 reps w/ your 10 lb dumbbells.

>>42611794
go back to your nippard vids on the youtubes nub. enjoy being weak forever.

>>42612843
i wouldnt brag about that deadlift, m8.

>>42611526
fuck outta here with your sanity anon

>>42612836
kys

>Be Zach
>Tfw just want to become big and strong
>Program adds more pounds of pure fat to my body than it did to my bench PR

>>42612415
Roiding for this

>>42610237
Destroy the Opposition

>>42611981
>perform at the highest levels of real sports.
b-but I just wanna fug bitches

>>42613149

tfw when im benching 160 for reps and curling 20lb dumbbells after almost a year of barbell training ;\

>>42612181

but who was traps?

>>42614888
Checked, I'm at 30 lb curls and 150 lb bench for reps after almost 2 months. I've been doing 5x5 with heavy upper body accessories and intentionally progressing slower on squat. Am I gonna make it?

>>42613149
Most successful bbers don't begin as powerlifters tho in in fact it's the opposite. A few have gone from bbing with hypertrophy programs and successfully converted to powerlifting.

>>42614405
Why would you be at 10lb dbs for any signficant period of time? A beginner would rapidly progress past that. Furthermore your strength routine being recommended doesn't even do arms and does almost nothing for biceps strength beyond chinups which don't hold a candle to curls for biceps because they mostly develop the brachialis rather than biceps. You have this delusional belief that strength training puts you way ahead of hypertrophy but actually the difference in strength isn't very big and a beginner particularly would do be better doing more reps and building skill greasing the groove than doing fewer reps as in a strength program. Lastly there's absolutely no evidence that a beginner should start a strength program over hypertrophy so you're spouting pure bullshit. You'd be best to shut your far face now.
>>42614426
You're an idiot.

>>42609766
It's a good program for beginners for the first period to learn the main exercises that will be staple of most programs. It will also give a good base of strength. If you expect to become aesthetic from those programs, then you only have yourself to thank.

GOMAD however is a shitty idea for just about anyone. You're much better taking your time to calculate your TDEE and then adding 400-500 kcal to that than getting fat. Sure getting fat will increase your strength even further, but you will lose all of that extra strength when you spend another 4 months dieting. You don't need to be eating 1500 calories above your maintenance levels. especially when you do such low volume workouts.

>>42610085
>GOMAD is not diet

>>42614058
I just made sure not to walk off cliffs. But why bother, you look like shit and always will.
>>42614483
You wouldn't brag about anything because all your lifts and your physique are mediocre at best.
>>42614661
Natty you jealous fuck.
>>42614920
>Hahahaha his physique annihilates mine in every way but let's cherry pick flaws to make up for my insecurity

>>42611965
Are you a liar or just fuckin stupid? It's the reason why the average weightlifter will look swoler than a bodyweight only fag

>>42612026
Read the sticky, faggot.

>>42610237
GSLP with arms
GZCLP
nSuns is legit good for a beginner

>>42609945
>he thinks he put on 50 lbs of lean muscle on in 4 months

>>42617439
i wouldnt brag about taking 2.5 years to deadlift 5 plates when i got there in <1.

>>42617635
>this
GZCLP is the shit

>>42617644
Yet you still don't bench 2 plate and don't ohp 1 plate cool dude

>>42612600
Clomids legit for low T. Got me from 200 to 800-900 test range

>>42612600
Just be sure your doc also prescribes estrogen blockers

>>42617787
thats real cute and reactionary. <3

>>42617635
nSuns is good for intermediates. It's just another 531 spin off but speed up progression.

>>42612381
>and absolutely doing no press work.

???

>>42617935
it speeds up the intensity, but by no means progression

>>42617667
i hear everyone recommend this here and on reddit all the time but i've never seen a solid progress report/review

it sounds good on paper but i feel it's a bit overrated. i also don't get the 25 rep rowing

>>42612181
GO TO BED ERIC ESSERTZAIZE

>>42609766
>hair grew that much in 4 months
uhhh what

>>42618347
STARTING STRENGTH
activates your GROWTH HORMONES, you'll gain STRENGTH and MUSCLE while LOSING FAT at the SAME TIME

File: SSvsSplit.png (49KB, 1382x691px) Image search: [Google]

49KB, 1382x691px

>>42609766
>itt: dyel splitfag propaganda

>>42612527
screencapp'd

lots of rippetoad shills in here lately

File: 1492636590413.jpg (89KB, 776x774px) Image search: [Google]

89KB, 776x774px

Does this chart still hold true as a decent starting place for a dude who's been on and off going to the gym for like two months.

>>42617543
read the quote chain retard we're comparing strength reps to hypertrophy reps not bodyweight.

>>42611526
>bro split for a year might look better than someone who's been doing SS 6 months + PPL for 6months, but give them another year and the brosplit will lag.
Sounds like a pretty good argument for doing a brosplit for a year then SS or whatever to bring your lifts up...

>>42611628
>If you can lift heavier weight, you will damage your muscle tissue more
Question:
If you can lift a heavier weight, doesn't that mean your muscle tissue is literally stronger, and thus less prone to damage? Would it then make sense as a bodybuilder to resist getting stronger while gains from lighter weights (i.e. adding sets/reps, NOT progressing weight) are still possible?

>>42612107
Surely the weight must be judged relative to the lifter.
We know that a significant contributor to noob gains is neuromuscular efficiency with performing the movement, not the growth of muscle.
Why then should it be discouraged for a new lifter to lift in classic bodybuilder style i.e. lots of lifts for lots of reps, versus SS style specialisation in low reps few sets push weight?
The beginner will make the same noob gains by learning the movements, and may even get more practice doing say sets of 4x8=32 vs. 3x5=15 reps. With enough sets and reps the new lifter can put their body under just as much stress at s lighter weight as someone doing 3x5s at a heavier weight. So why rush through the moon progression period?

>>42617439
How tall are you? That might explain why you don't look as good as you'd want to. I'm assuming you also didn't try lifting with high volume and accessories. Also,
>225 OHP
>Those triceps
Post a video of you hitting 225, I'm curious and it'd probably shut up a lot of people

>>42612268
Not that anon, but he's right, heres the study and an article about it.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/8637535/
http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/muscle-gain/anabolic-steroids-muscle-growth.html/

>>42620431
https://youtu.be/FrgV4hy6LEM

Here's a vid of me repping 180 strict from a year and a half ago.

>>42621250
We can't see the weight.

>>42609797
Nothing, just add some arms exercises/pull-ups. Not doing curls was the biggest meme I fell for.

>>42621262
Look in the mirror.

>>42611773
>reasonably impressive
>280 lbs bench at 170 bw
>bench and squat are oly lifts

What the hell are you talking about

>>42610085
When you type in all caps I read it as if you're yelling

>>42621250
Ahh I've seen you post before, I remember. My best guess is that you only strength train, with little accessories except for maybe arms. Being over 6'2, gains will come slow, but even slower without the extra volume. Good luck on your cycle if you're actually going through with it bb