>there are (((people))) on /fit/ RIGHT NOW that don't

any routine that says you have to low bar back squat, you have to power clean, you have to conventional deadlift and you have to bench press -- is fucking retarded. those are great lifts if a person chooses them but not all beginners are best off doing them and fact is there are shitloads of great alternatives to those lifts to keep a beginner in the game.

>>42520943
>muh barbell training
fuck off you dogmatic prick

Beginners should squat and deadlift. What's so controversial about that? Y'all hate Rippletits but he's trained more people...

>>42522212
>Beginners should squat and deadlift.
Why? Not all people are interested in strength training

>>42520943
>the shill who's been actively shitting on Rippletits for the past couple of weeks is now trying to use reverse psychology
SS is great fuck off

>>42522212
As a beginner im always too intimidated to do the big lifts.
Scared ill either fuck up loading the weights, doing the exercise in the wrong area, misjudging my strength and falling while doing squats etc

Thats why i always skip SS and go straight for dumbells and meme machines.

>>42522029
That's why the program should be accompanied by a starting strength coach. If one is not available, and one wishes to learn the movements, the book is available

>>42522149
You can't deny that barbell training than dumbbell or machine training
>able to be incrementally loaded as small as one desires
>standard sizes and cheap
>simple movement patterns train multiple groups of muscle

>>42522223
The only way for natural athletes to get muscle is to get stronger, either through intensity or volume. The route of intensity is preferred because of its simplistic design and goals. Novices should progress 5lbs at least every single week. Not a single other program designed for novices have clear descriptive goals like starting strength

>>42522240
m8 I'll come home RIGHT NOW and post my copies of Starting Strength and Practical Programming if you don't believe me

>>42522284
I see you don't actually want to progress efficiently

Reg parks 5x5 is 1000 times better than SS. Reminder that Rippetoe has never produced or trained and elite or even notable athlete. SS is decent for high school footballers but most seem to be using 5/3/1 or Madcow nowadays

>>42522490
> That's why the program should be accompanied by a starting strength coach. If one is not available, and one wishes to learn the movements, the book is available
Uh...did you respond to the wrong person because none of this is a valid response to my post, not even close.

>>42522550
>someone who specializes in training non-athletes (including the elderly) has never trained an elite athlete
>someone who specializes in training non-genetic-freaks has never trained a genetic freak
ftfy
The reason why SS is so good is because it works 100% of the time for everyone. Everyone who follows the program correctly (eat at a surplus, sleep well, rest for long enough, etc:) gets stronger as a result. It is impossible to fail. You can't say the same for 5/3/1, Madcow, or Reg parks 5x5 (also none of which are targeted towards novices)

>>42522623
It made it seem like you were saying beginners shouldn't use them because it's harder to learn. Care to go into more detail?

>>42522792
>beginners shouldn't use them because it's harder to learn
Nope. I said what I said. And you responded to it like a fucking retard. The idea that all beginners should all do the exact same lifts is the most moronic idea of all time. Different people will acclimate quicker, better and thus have better results and faster to different lifts. Saying they all should do the same lifts is factually wrong and retardex. kys

>>42520943
>Starting strength is singlehandedly THE best program for natural athletes looking to build muscle and strength
*in their quads (and spinal erectors)

It is most definitely NOT the best program for building muscle in your chest, arms, shoulders, and abs. In fact it's piss poor at that.

>>42522828
All you're saying are statements with no facts behind them. Yes, different people will get stronger differently, but that's not to say that different people would get better results over one routine over another.

There is such a thing as genetics in anything involving the gym. People get different plateaus on their lifts differently. The only thing genetics dictate is how well a person progresses, what their starting point is, and their leverages. All of which are covered in the book

>>42522860
>abs
HAHAHAHA. Wanna know how I can tell you've never squatted 3pl8s.
Seriously. Fuck off with your bullshit. I can tell immediately that you just started lifting a few months ago

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>>42522896
>laughs at training abs directly
>he's a rippletits cultist

opinion disregarded

Shit thread, bro. SS is on the decline. Not even worth discussing anymore. SS fags had their glory for a while, but despite the shilling, fewer and fewer people are falling for the meme anymore.

Pic related is an SS success

>>42522896
> All you're saying are statements with no facts behind them
THE ENTIRE FITNESS WORLD IS EVIDENCE OF THESE FACTS YOU GOD DAMNED RETARD. OR ARE YOU TRYING TO CLAIM NOBODY IS SUCCESSFUL OR THEY ALL FOLLOWED SS? HOLY FUCK YOU'RE RETARDED. YOUR PROGRAM SUCKS BALLS FOR THE MAJORITY OF PEOPLE. MOST PEOPLE ARE NOT BEST OFF PERFORMING THE SPECIFIC LIFTS DESCRIBED IN SS, ESPECIALLY NOT BEGINNERS.

>>42522948
>is an SS success
m8 that guy has only been training 6 months in that picture
Welcome to the cruel harsh reality of training. You're not going to look like Jeff Seid any time soon. You need at least 5 years to make it look obvious that you lift. And I'm talking about 220lbs at 10% obvious.
Your new faggotry is showing

also
>laughs at training abs directly
I said this once in this thread and I'll say it again. The ONLY way to build muscle is by getting stronger with either intensity or volume. So if I'm preforming really heavy squats or deadlifts, and my abs are one of the muscles being used in the lift, my abs will grow as a result because of the intensity. The only reason it's not visible in your pic is because of a higher body fat percentage

>>42522981
The entire fitness world is doing steroids and they would gain muscle just by doing pushups. That's not to say that pushups are the best way to get huge pecs.

If all of the doctors recommended cigarettes because they're healthy, that does not make them healthy. Similarly there's a lot of broscience that has yet to be dismantled.
Studies have CONTENTIOUSLY shown that training for strength and training for volume leads to the same result. If this weren't the case, then people like Dorian Yates or Ronnie Coleman would not exist. They have built on muscle to become the best body builders in the world and have become so with doing lower repetitions and higher intensity
Training for strength is preferred because of the reasons I've listed in this thread. To summarize it's the only routine that is IMPOSSIBLE to fail other than having a crippling disease. In that case, strength training is still preferred to get stronger
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DUtsO818WWs

>>42523081
> The entire fitness world is doing steroids
Many of them are including ones following routines oddly similar to SS so that argument works both ways.

> Training for strength is preferred because of the reasons I've listed in this thread
Nobody said not to train strength you fucking retard. Just stop. You're a complete moron with canned responses.

The fact of the matter is SS is not ideal for most beginners because it does not offer alternative lifts if the beginner isn't good at the ones they recommend. Your shit program insists they're optimal for building strength for all healtjy beginners when they factually are not.

Take a person for example who has spent months on bench press and made no real peogress. SS offers no alternative. Your form is just shit and you should just keep trying. Meanwhile a better program would tell them numerous other ways they could try and build strength in their chest like football bar bp, band push ups, dips, db chest press, etc. The noob winds up doing really well in one of these lifts and makes gains 100x faster than had they toiled for months and months with your forced meme lifts.

>>42523497
So rather than doing things properly you would rather the beginner try a Billions of things in the hope he can pick up some exercise that will help him advance fucking kill yourself you dyel retard.

Not even the faggot OP.

>>42523497
>because it does not offer alternative lifts if the beginner isn't good at the ones they recommend
Then that gets into the realm of teaching the proper lifts. If a beginner isn't good at the lifts, the program isn't to blame, it's the beginner for not taking the time to learn the lifts.
There is NO alternative to squats or deadlifts. Overhead press and bench I guess could be substituted for their dumbbell equivalent, but you'd run into the problem of being able to incrementally load the barbell to as precise to 1 lb. A step from a 40lb dumbbell to a 45lb dumbbell results in a 10 lb jump, which is impossible to do in just a week's time for a novice.
>optimal for building strength for all healtjy beginners when they factually are not
Post ONE hypothetical case where a beginner cannot make ANY progress on any of the lifts
>inb4 a 80 year old that can't squat

>Take a person for example who has spent months on bench press and made no real peogress
If you follow the program correctly and load the barbell 2.5 lbs above the bench press

>>42523497
>>42523544
Fuck, accidentally submitted
>load the barbell 2.5 lbs above the previous bench press
The numbers are precise for a reason. This is THE best way for novices togain strength

> Your form is just shit and you should just keep trying
That's not the fault of the program. That's of the fault of the novice.
>Meanwhile a better program would tell them numerous other ways they could try and build strength in their chest like football bar bp, band push ups, dips, db chest press
None of which are as effective as the bench press
>The noob winds up doing really well in one of these lifts and makes gains 100x faster than had they toiled for months and months with your forced meme lifts.
This is an unlikely event. Just think about it. Strength is the amount of force against an external resistance. If the exercises are really synonymous with bench press (hint, they're not. Some are difficult to incrementally load properly and other's work separate muscles entirely), then there would be no difference between training bench press and training db chest press

>>42523542
A beginner should be educated in a handful of lifts per bodypart, yes? Is that too hard for fat and retarded SS autists?

>>42523544
There is an alternative to all of these, many of them, especially low bar back squats and conventional deadlifts. You don't know basic fitness and you're telling beginners what to do? I certainly hope you don't hurt anyone for your own sake because I would murder you irl.

>>42523572
> This is an unlikely event. Just think about it. Strength is the amount of force against an external resistance. If the exercises are really synonymous with bench press (hint, they're not. Some are difficult to incrementally load properly and other's work separate muscles entirely), then there would be no difference between training bench press and training db chest press
No retard. This is an almost guaranteed to be the case event. Beginners will acclimate faster to some lifts than others. The lifts they progress faster with will be better for a beginner to use to build strength fastest with. My limiting them to only one version of five lifts, you've greatly reduced the odds that they'll be using a lift they're good at and ensuring that only those naturally acclimated to that small handful of lifts will see optimal results.

>>42523593
Just kill yourself you crossfit retard you and this dyel op have less than 1 year of lifting under your belts and are shitting this board.

>>42522029
>power clean
>then teaches form by saying "jump and shrug" 1000 times bc it's a complex movement and the dingus "coach" doesn't know how to coach the move properly

>>42522240
>the shill who's been actively shitting on Rippletits for the past couple of weeks
>the
>singular

Bro, if you sincerely think some guy is samefagging not only here, but across the entire internet about what a crock SS is then you've drank so much coolaid that I'm surprised you aren't busting through walls screaming "HIP DRAHVE" every time someone doesn't squat to depth.

>>42520943

Any routine that has you do the major 6 lifts and only important ones is a good routine. Those 6 are as follows.

>Bench
>Ohp
>Squats
>Deadlift
>Pull ups
>Rows (thats right bitch dont want to be a latlet now do you?)

All you need.

>>42523659
>SS is a crock because I can't do excercises 80iq niggers can do without reading a book.

>>42523081
>You need at least 5 years to make it look obvious that you lift.

As someone that's ran SS, and ran my own programs, I made far greater progress and gains on my own program AFTER my noob gains on SS.

Protip: SS works great for beginners because literally anything works for beginners. It's exceptionally poorly optimized for people willing to put in the work to make fast gains and caters to lazy shits by teaching them that 15 reps is sufficient volume. It's not.

>>42523713
Were you planning to do test and dbol alongside ppl because if you think any routine will make you aesthetic in 6 months you're delusional

>>42523544
>A step from a 40lb dumbbell to a 45lb dumbbell results in a 10 lb jump, which is impossible to do in just a week's time for a novice.
>the only way to progress is increasing the weight
>building strength with more reps is impossible
>get up to doing 40lbs for 12
>wow, I can do 45lbs for a reasonable amount of volume now!

You want to know how I know you just discovered SS 3 months ago? It's because you don't know shit about training and give the same verbatim dogmatic response every other SS neophyte gives.

>>42523608
You clearly have no experience coaching genpop lifters. The vast, VAST majority of people aren't 'good' at ANY lift without quite a bit of practice and at least some oversight from someone who knows what they're doing.

Also, you clearly don't understand how the body adapts to stress. What do you think is causing the 'acclimation' you describe in some lifts rather than others? Do you honestly think someone is more likely to 'acclimate' to squatting and deadlifting earlier than they are to RDLs or goblet squats?

SS uses the lifts it does for three very simple, very obvious reasons. Do you know what they are?

>>42523696
Lol, what makes you think that? Do you really think squats, deads, and bench are hard to learn? They're literally bare bones, brosephino.

>>42523766
That's what this retard is thinking I thought you were him>>42523752 >>42523593

>>42523742
>I say things I think are steroids

6 months can take someone from skinnyfat to 1/2/3/4 training 3x a week, but not on SS. I know because I did that 8 years ago in highschool.

>>42523779
So what is this program ? Surely you don't believe your on and off lifting and sports make you similar to a couch potato skinny fat

>>42523779
Most men who do SS correctly hit those numbers for reps in 6 months. I hit those numbers in 6 months with SS. Many other people on /fit/ have too. Even more have elsewhere judging by the sheer number of people making their training logs public on the SS forums. Are they all lying?

>>42523752
> The vast, VAST majority of people aren't 'good' at ANY lift
Good as in better at one lift than the other? Yes, yes they factually are. I guarantee you if you sat a million people down in a room and gave them 10 squat variations THE OVERWHELMING VAST MAJORITY will do better with at least one than the others furthermore the majority will not pick a low bar back squat.

> Do you honestly think someone is more likely to 'acclimate' to squatting and deadlifting earlier than they are to RDLs or goblet squats?
The fuck are you trying to say you shit eating retard? A beginner, if they're working in a strength rep range for any given body part with a lift they are good at, is going to make better gains than had they followed a routine insisting the lifts in it are optimal for everyone.

> SS uses the lifts it does for three very simple, very obvious reasons. Do you know what they are?
Because you're fucking retarded

If you're a generic freak with a SVJ of 36" and you're looking for a starter program go ahead and skip SS. You'll be fine no matter what program you do. Hell, just do leg press and eat chicken nuggets like Usain.

>>42523798
More volume. Literally it. You think you don't build strength doing more than 5 reps? I've made gains doing sets of 50...

Do this for 3-4 weeks and tell me you don't get bigger or stronger.

Start with 135lbs x10. Add 10lbs, do another set of ten. Repeat until you can't hit 10 - should be 5+ sets, start with less weight if you don't get at least 5 sets. With the same weight that you couldn't hit 10 on, repeat it with one more set rest paused. Strip a bunch of weight off. It's relative to what you ended with, but doesn't even fucking matter. Strip 50-100lbs off and do a widow maker for as many reps as possible. Might be 20+, rest with the bar in your hands to squeeze more out.

Do this for bench one day, rows another (turning into cheat rows is encouraged, and using straps when it gets heavy is too), and trap bar diddlies on another. Don't do this with squats or regular deads as all you'll do is blow out your lower back for 2-3 weeks with the volume.

3 Days a week. Do some accessories like 100-200 dips on bench day, 100-200 chins or curls on row day, and whatever the fuck you want on DL day (nothing, because you'll be near death).

Every couple of weeks change it to sets of 8, 6, 12, whatever the fuck you want. The lower the reps, the bigger the weight jumps.

>>42523833
>being this buttmad about a discussion of lifting techniques on a Nilo-Saharan horse milking board

So on the basis of the fact that people who don't know how to lift don't know how to lift, you'd not bother to teach people how to lift because people who have never lifted before don't know how to do it. Gr9 b9 m9. I hope for everyone's sake you don't train aircraft mechanics, because I suspect everyone has a naturally different approach to fixing a hole in the fuselage.

You didn't actually answer either question so I'll ask them again: what makes it more likely for a person to acclimate to one lift rather than another? Why does SS use the lifts it does (hint: the answers to the two questions are fundamentally linked.)

>>42522550
>Reminder that Rippetoe has never produced or trained and elite or even notable athlete.
You are literally wrong though.

>>42523897
Forgot that rows are +20lbs per set and DL are +30lbs per set, and the DL are sets of 8 because the volume should be a bit lower because they can still hit the lower back too hard if you do enough of them.

>>42523909
> what makes it more likely for a person to acclimate to one lift rather than another?
GEE I DUNNO SALLY MAYBE YOU COULD TEACH THEM MORE THAN ONE LIFT PER BODY PART SO THEY COULD CHOOSE WHAT WORKS BEST FOR THEM? NAH? TOO HARD? EVERYONE IS THE SAME ANYWAY LOL AMIRITE?

If it's too hard for a teacher to teach or a beginner to learn a few lifts per bodypart then neither have any business with lifting.

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>>42523897

>>42523967
>tfw he tells me to start with 135x10 but I'm only on my second week of SS

>>42522550
Reg Park's 5x5 is literally SS with a handful of accessories. It's based on the same principles (Park spent a lot of time in the gym, most people in the gym are novices at any given time, over time he came to realise what kinds of routine would work best for them.) Park isn't even the first person to use 3 work sets of 5 reps as the basis of his programs.

Also, Rip has trained some very notable athletes, including several national-level Olympic weightlifters. He's said when asked why he doesn't talk about them that it doesn't really matter that he trained them, for the same reason it doesn't matter that anyone else has: it isn't the coach that makes these people good athletes. They'd be good athletes no matter what he or anyone else did, that's just how it is. Taking credit for getting a kid with a standing vertical of 40 inches to squat 500lb is like Einstein's high school maths teacher taking credit for general relativity.

>>42523941
You still haven't answered the question, which makes me think you don't understand it. Why does SS use the lifts it does? Why would a person 'acclimate' as you put it to one lift faster than to another lift? What would be the criteria that are likely to determine this?

I seriously hope you aren't involved in coaching anyone, because if your method amounts to 'eh just do some lifts and see if you like them' all you're doing is wasting other people's time. But I guess your weaponised autism kinda excludes any interaction with people in the real world.

>>42520943
Do you think picking things up and putting them down to grow your muscles is some difficult concept that only "experts" can understand? Sounds like you're the noob acting like an elite authority on such a basic subject that even idiots can understand and master (and plenty of them do).

Rippletits made SS to sell training and books. If you're not interested in going t-rex mode I'd avoid it and do something more catered towards your personal goals. No shame in wanting to get joocy, don't waste your time and calories on this meme program if that's your desired result.

>>42523497
>too retarded to do big 3
suicide is the best program for you

>>42524022
Your questions are flat out retarded and the answers are the subject of the very thing being made fun of and you're still so retarded that you keep asking them! LOL

The absolute worst thing you can possibly do to a beginner is try and convince then "all you need is x". The best thing a beginner can do is be educated in a variety of lifts per body part, how to perform them and allow them through trial and error to figure out what works best for them because unlike the pure meme retard logic SS spews, we aren't all the same and a beginners will have better results than others with wildly different variety of lifts. Trying to shoehorn the "best" lifts into a routine is only to benefit your institution to make it easier for you to teach and thereby sell. It's not what's best for a beginner.

>>42524062
you're hella dumb dude

>>42520943
I wish making a new thread on /fit/ required submitting a timestamped pic to the mods, so they can label your thread accordingly as DYEL.

>>42524076
>>42524076
Unfortunately none of your answers actually make sense. In what way is 'everyone different' exactly? What other exercises for 'body parts' are the alternatives you prescribe as an alternative to the ones SS uses (bearing in mind SS doesn't even claim to train body parts)? If the lifts in SS are so easy to teach, why does the SS organisation make it so difficult to get their certification? And why if they're so easy to teach, are many of the SS lifts so counter intuitive, as you've previously claimed?

Are you in fact just butthurt that you 'did SS' for a few weeks (wrong) without reading the book and got pisspoor results, leading to your current internet crusade against it? Because you haven't actually provided any substantiation for any of the bullshit you're spouting right now.

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>>42524207
> In what way is 'everyone different' exactly?
muscle attachment points, bone structure, height, weight, etc etc all of these things along with whatever physical activity we have performed through the course of our lives will influence what lifts we will naturally acclimate to. To compare you could explain why some people taking to shooting a basketball well and others not even after practice. Some people just aren't cut out for some lifts.

> What other exercises for 'body parts' are the alternatives you prescribe as an alternative to the ones SS uses (bearing in mind SS doesn't even claim to train body parts)?
This is one of the reasons SS is shit. What kind of beginner strength program neglects posterior delts and abs this hard? You seriously need me to tell you different variations of different angles of pulls, presses and squats? Go to exrx.net there's tons. Or just go on yt sometime and lookup what experienced lifters are doing instead.

> if they're so easy to teach, are many of the SS lifts so counter intuitive, as you've previously claimed?
How difficult a lift is mechanically has nothing to do with it. Retards can back squat but some healthy athletic males will never find much success. They are not outliers. Some people will simply not get good at it in a reasonable time period. They are better off learning other ways to work their legs than back squat.

> Are you in fact just butthurt that you 'did SS' for a few weeks (wrong) without reading the book and got pisspoor results, leading to your current internet crusade against it? Because you haven't actually provided any substantiation for any of the bullshit you're spouting right now.
I did SS for a few months and hated every session. It was very effective in making me seek out my own routine because it was so shit I had to. I give it credit for that.

>>42522860
Maybe you should read the book. Rip goes into that. Most of you fucks on here don't know shit about the program besides what you've seen on here. Also it's called STARTING strength for a reason, you're not supposed to stay on it until you're a chubby t-rex, and if you read the material and do the actual routine, not the bastardized thing you saw online, you wouldn't look that way anyway. The only reason>>42522948looks that way is because they wanted to put on as many pounds as possible, Rip also goes into not doing it that way.

tldr: Read the book before you think you know the routine.

>>42523897

>start with 135lbs.x10

dog

>>42523593
Deadlifts and squats should be done by beginners as they are literally two of the best compound movements due to the amount of muscle groups recruited and due to CNS adaptation. Fuck this board has gone to shit. Stop posting retard.

>>42523713
STARTING Strength dipshit. It's meant to teach form, induce CNS adaptation, and build a base. You're not meant to make huge gains. You're not meant to stay on long either, 90-180 days. Fuck you people are stupid.

>>42520943
Everyone is qualified to give advice on /fit/

>>42524445
>I-it's a good routine, you just need to read 10 billion pages first

Or you could stop wasting time and get into a simpler, better routine that has proven results

>>42520943
SS is good, and like it, but it lacks chest isolation and more bicep work. You can also add a 4th set of 8 reps, on the upper body lifts, to it to increase the volume. it makes it very balanced.

>>42522981

I have read SS, but long after the program would have been effective for me. By the time I came across it I was already stalling on weights that relative to body weight that bordered on the low end of advanced meaning top 5% of adult males. Don't get me wrong I did 5x5 and 3x3 and other programs concentrating on the Big 5, but no where near what I should have.

SS ... Stronglifts ... and many others are basically the same beginner to intermediate linear build programs with minor programing differences and they work amazingly well.

I would have to say IMHO hands down getting a base level of strength 5x5 programs following a linear progression is the most effective way to start.

As to the fitness industry its a slimy hole or magic powders and dishonest peddlers who don't use there own magic powders.

>>42522284
This is exactly why you should be doing them.

The act of loading the bar is effective weight training. Let that sink in. You are taking awkward weights and manipulating them into place.

While it is possible to work out in the wrong area if this is a fear of yours I would suggest you get ready for it its really complicated just asking the fucking gym staff is that so fucking hard. Other than that if you are squatting in the rack it doesn’t matter if its empty bar or 600.

Failure is part of the game. Make sure your safeties are set correctly and your practice failure with a light weight now and then.

As to falling that would be bad, but all the stuff that stops you from falling all those supportive muscles get stronger during the process.

Stop being a beta cuck and man up.

>>42524489
>Deadlifts and squats should be done by beginners as they are literally two of the best compound movements due to the amount of muscle groups recruited and due to CNS adaptation
I never said they shouldn't you fucking retarded shit eating faggot I specifically said they should be EDUCATED on variations because they're almost invariably going to have more success with one variation than another and as a BEGINNER doing what you do best is going to give best results. For example if you struggle to back squat you could try one of any number of squat variations including front squats, hack squats, split squats, etc. Or if you struggle to conventional deadlift your body proportions could simply not be cut out for it and thus yes you would be better off sumo deadlifting or maybe trap bar deadlifting or maybe not deadlifting and instead doing rack pulls + back extensions. This is critical to know as a beginner so you don't waste time doing lifts you suck at and will take too long to get good at.
>>42526690
>SS ... Stronglifts ... and many others are basically the same beginner to intermediate linear build programs with minor programing differences and they work amazingly well.
No they don't work amazingly well. Beginners will grow off of any kind of consistent training. Being consistent and lifting heavy weights will build a beginner a strength base. There's your program.

>>42524506
>You're not meant to make huge gains

When you first start lifting you make the fastest gains you ever will while lifting. Gains means any form of progress be it size, strength, or getting leaner depending on the person's goals. How the fuck do you not know this?

>>42526840
>just asking the fucking gym staff

Don't. None of them know how to squat and will either teach you quarter squats, or say you need to do leg presses instead "because you're too new". None of them know how to deadlift, and will even preach the dangers of it. And nearly none can teach a proper bench set up.

>>42527043
You clearly do not understand the most basic concepts of this topic or how to teach novices.

Your so wrong it hurts.

>>42527213

And ... that is what you got from my post. Go back and read it again.

>>42524482
The starting set is obviously relative to your max, but there's no need for percentages. You can literally start with the bar. The whole point is you do an insane amount of volume in a big movement. The secondary effect is that you accumulate fatigue with lighter weights, so that by the time you hit moderate weights they're much harder - getting you lots of volume while sparing your soft tissues which recover very slowly.

Starting with 95lbs and ending somewhere around 155-165 for less than 10 and doing the rest pause set + widow would get you close to 13,000lbs of volume on just bench.

Most would consider that an insane amount of volume, or say that natties can't get away with it, but I assure you that you can. The first few times you do it it the DOMs the next day will suck, but having a single movement and accessory keeps focus, intensity, and work quality extremely high.

>>42523897
>Start with 135lbs x10. Add 10lbs, do another set of ten. Repeat until you can't hit 10 - should be 5+ sets, start with less weight if you don't get at least 5 sets. With the same weight that you couldn't hit 10 on, repeat it with one more set rest paused. Strip a bunch off...


SS works great because it SIMPLE.
>guy walks in gym
>does the simplest movements that cover the most amount of muscle
>gets decent mass and CNS adaptations
>doesn't need to use fucking equations to figure out how much weight to put on the bar
>does relatively brief workouts
>plenty of rest
>guy stops being a complete retard
>does another program.

That's fucking it, if you want to go into why Reg Parks 5x5 or some other BB routine is better, most are grounded on the same principle as SS, with more stuff. And with beginners its all about TIME to RESULTS ratio, imo SS has this down. Think about it, if you do 50mins of SS and get x amount of mass, would you gain even half of x if you spent another 30 minutes doing curls, back extensions/flys/pulldowns etc.?!

In the end, adding any exercise for w/e bodypart to SS means more time spent for less results, the workout has the most efficient exercises for what it does, finish SS and do more shit, yet retards can't grasp this.

>>42527239
Literally every single knowledgeable lifter agrees with me. None of them and I mean not a single one preach "you should only do the variations in SS" unless your specific goal is powerlifting training in which case it's not a beginner strength program.

>>42527239
He's actually right.

Most beginners aren't going to have the mobility to squat properly and would be better off doing leg presses and addressing hip imbalances by adding glute ham raises/leg curls and stretching until their posture and mobility is corrected, rather than just trying to add weight to a squat with terrible form.

Same for deadlifting. Nearly every beginner would be better off doing trap bar deadlifts until they have sufficient mobility instead of conventional or sumo.

Some novices will be so weak when they start that the bar is a challenge to bench and doesn't allow sufficient volume and would be better served doing knee pushups, then working up to real pushups to build the basic pushing pattern.

There are so many variables for beginners that saying 3-4 exercises will fix everything is silly and shows you've never trained anyone.

>>42522029
Any STRENGTH routine that says you don't have to do that is fucking stupid.

>>42522223
>Why? Not all people are interested in strength training
Rip trains people to get stronger and has admitted hundreds of times that his experience and knowledge ends there.

>>42522284
I see this all the time in gyms. Guys who use a barbell only for benching because it's easy. Then it's DB press, leg presses, walking lunges etc, and they usually all share a trait of being DYEL or weak.

>>42527455
How do you begin with bench presses and OHP when you're too weak for the barbell? I'm scared of it falling on me and destroying my ribs

>>42527481
Why? Why should a person looking to build strength do those specific variations if they find more success with another or different lift entirely? There's not a single reason to do those specific lifts. If you work in the strength rep range and hit all your body parts multiple times per week as a beginner you're gonna progress fast. There's not a shred of evidence whatsoever those variations are better for this.

>>42527380
What I posted takes approximately 20-30 minutes for the main lift, and another 10-20 for the accessory. If "do 10 reps, and weight, repeat until failure" is too complicated, then I doubt they're smart enough to read rippletits bible.

>if you spent another 30 minutes doing curls, back extensions/flys/pulldowns etc.?!
I didn't realize dips, chins, and curls were useless. Considering dips and chins are basically the squats and deadlifts of the upper body.

And yes, if you want bigger arms you need dips and either chins or curls. Rows will never get you big arms. The lower body also responds extremely well to training vs the upper body. This is why the T-Rex meme became a thing. It's not just that the volume favors the lower body, it's that for natties the lower body hypertrophies easy than the upper body on top of the skewed upper lower volume.

>In the end, adding any exercise for w/e bodypart to SS means more time spent for less results
Except you're completely wrong. More hard sets = more gains. Doesn't matter if you're a beginner or advanced. If you do 5 hard sets of squats you're going to get bigger and stronger than if you did 3 hard sets of squats. That's a fact.

Hence saying "It's exceptionally poorly optimized for people willing to put in the work to make fast gains". Willing to put in the work. Most people want results quicker. Most are willing to put in the work to get them. Yet most are recommended a program that caters to the lazy.

>>42527531
Do pushups with strict form, planks, and some form of lat movement like chins on a pulldown machine if you can't do chins.

Build up a bit of a base until the bar feels fairly easy. In the mean time watch videos on form. Most YTers get bench form right, but for OHP I recommend the video by Justin from 70's big.

Once you can play with the bar confidently, stay in a higher rep range (8-15) and work up there and focus on using the best form you can so that it becomes ingrained easily. Once you're confident enough in your form and know what getting close to failing feels like, start to up the weight and bring the volume down if you want.

One of the worst things about SS is that it relies on novices - people with very little experience on movements, to add weight to the point of near failure every session. The problem is that newbs don't know how to fail a lift. When they get to the point where they should fail using proper form, they do things like squat mornings, or flare their elbows out on bench to get the weight up because they haven't ingrained proper form due to the minimal amount of repetitions.

SS is a fucking meme

I did it for a year and it just turned me into a weird t-rex mode looking fuck

>>42527455

Here is the problem. I am talking general you know the average. You are talking about the extreme minority.

Of course not all people will be able to lift the bar and for those people the exact same program can work they just use wait for it a smaller bar or dumbbells. Or lets say oh no a mobility issue well then of course a different exercise set will have to be used. Either way it goes back to the programing not the exercise. Progressive linear loading utilizing exercises that engage the most muscles will have the greatest compounding effect for novices.

Why are people on this board suck morons

>>42527532
The mountain of evidence is ever being added to when young football, rugby and other sports teams requiring """""""functional"""""""" strength perform better when training using strength movements which use a large proportion of the body's musculature in ways which mimick real life movements.
Could high bar squats be be used over low bar squats? The difference is probably not huge.
Could sumo be used over conventional? Possibly but the movement is different and has a shorter ROM.
Could flyes be used over bench? No.

Why are you looking to improve on a premise which works and has always worked? Why would you want to use variations of the main lifts instead of the main lifts? The main lifts are easy and coachable, and rippetoe as well as any other respectable strength coach uses them if injury or similar makes it necessary.

>>42527578
>If "do 10 reps, and weight, repeat until failure" is too complicated, then I doubt they're smart enough to read rippletits bible.

Only that's not what you said, in SS its:
>Three sets of X weight.
>Warmup to X weight.
>Increase by 2.5lbs next session.
Done. Only one variable, the weight.

Whereas your method:
>Start with 135lbs x10. Add 10lbs, do another set of ten. Repeat until you can't hit 10 - should be 5+ sets, start with less weight if you don't get at least 5 sets. With the same weight that you couldn't hit 10 on, repeat it with one more set rest paused. Strip a bunch of weight off. It's relative to what you ended with, but doesn't even fucking matter. Strip 50-100lbs off and do a widow maker for as many reps as possible. Might be 20+, rest with the bar in your hands to squeeze more out.

Do you honestly believe a complete novice would remember, let alone understand how to do all that?

>I didn't realize dips, chins, and curls were useless. Considering dips and chins are basically the squats and deadlifts of the upper body.
Never said useless you mong, I said lifts like that don't add general mass/strength compared to the time and effort it takes to do them.

>Considering dips and chins are basically the squats and deadlifts of the upper body.
In terms of efficiency, bench and OHP are the squats and deads of the upper body. Most mass/strength per time/effort put in.

>And yes, if you want bigger arms you need dips and either chins or curls

Moot point, of course more exercises are needed, my point is that at the very beginning they are unnecessary. Compare doing curls for 15 minutes opposed to 15 minutes of heavy deadlifts? Yes its kind of apples to oranges, using the analogy so you can get the picture.

>More hard sets = more gains
Gains are limited to recovery m8. Go and max out your noob doing 2-3 workouts per body part and see how quickly he will reach severe diminishing returns? And it won't be because he reached his genetic peak.

>>42527818
*rip makes use of variations if it's necessary

>>42527780
>Why are people on this board suck morons
Ironic.

If you think the average person can walk into a gym and do squats or deadlifts with acceptable form that won't cause them injury then it's pretty obvious you've never trained anyone, and you're extrapolating your experience with lifting to the general population.

Most people can barely bend over to pick shit up off the ground. Most people have APT from sitting their entire lives. Most people have rigid lumbars from never moving their entire lives. Most people have zero business doing squats or deads starting out and would be better served doing alternatives while they correct their mobility issues.

On top of that, most people just want to not be fat and build a bit of muscle to look good, and there are more efficient means to building the legs than squats, and deadlifts.

>>42527578
To reiterate, I'm not saying you should only do Squats/Deads/OHP and neither does Ripp, more people would know IF they had actually read the book. I'm only pointing out the BENEFIT of SS, which is the best Result/Effort ratio, Rip coached people for 30+ years, his program includes some the things that work BEST, cutting out the ones that aren't worth the effort WHEN YOU BEGIN (Not things that aren't worth it EVER). You don't need to do the BEST 3 back/squat/shoulder exercises as a beginner, one is sufficient when you start.

>>42527738
>I did it for a year
Nice, so you squat 390kg for 3x5 now?

>beginner program
>wants you to do power cleans

what did rippertitle mean by that

>>42527832
>Do you honestly believe a complete novice would remember, let alone understand how to do all that?
Yes. Most people aren't retarded, believe it or not.

>I said lifts like that don't add general mass/strength compared to the time and effort it takes to do them.
So you're saying compound lifts don't add general mass and strength compared for the time put in? Are you so deep in the SS coolaid that anything other than squats/deads/bench are a waste of time?

>In terms of efficiency, bench and OHP are the squats and deads of the upper body.
Wrong. If you don't understand the importance of the upper back and lats for upper body size and strength than you're completely retarded.

>Yes its kind of apples to oranges
No, it's apples to steak. There is no training effect of doing power cleans, deads or squats on the arms. The only movements in SS that hit the arms are bench and OHP, which you do a total of 45 reps a week between the two, completely neglecting the biceps and long head of the triceps.


>Go and max out your noob doing 2-3 workouts per body part and see how quickly he will reach severe diminishing returns?
>2-3 workouts per body part
I didn't realize that 5 total movements a week was 2-3 per body part, or that doing sets of 6, 8, 10, or 12 was maxing out. They have an entire week to recover the respective muscle groups and recovery isn't an issue. You're literally just spewing canned SS neophyte responses and you don't even know the points you're arguing.

>>42527818
> strength perform better when training using strength movements which use a large proportion of the body's musculature in ways which mimick real life movements
that's not the argument cocksucker. you don't even know how to read and you're trying to argue. fuck off retard. you should perform heavy compound movements. you as a beginner shouldn't be antagonized into thinking there's only 1 best version by a bunch of validation seeking fat asses because that's factually wrong. there are numerous ways to squat a weight, press a weight and pull a weight and none of them are universally best for every beginner.
> Why are you looking to improve on a premise which works and has always worked
SS ain't the wheel dipshit and its variations haven't always worked or specialty bars and machines would never have existed.
>>42527833
> *rip makes use of variations if it's necessary
no he doesn't for a beginner he says unless you're injured or a genetic outlier his routine is best and that's objectively false as there are numerous people on this very board who will attest to finding far greater strength success as a beginner by not doing the specific variations he insists on

>>42527940
just jump and shrug bro. ezpz :^)

>>42527970
As much as I'd like to continue this riveting discussion, you're behaving like an angry little boy and I can't be bothered dealing with you.

>>42528121
>he doesn't fit into my ss teacher handbook or canned responses mom help
tootaloo dipshit

>>42528158
Whatever helps you feel right, big boy.

>>42527959
>Yes. Most people aren't retarded, believe it or not.
Yet, that's not an argument, provided similar results, simper > complex

>So you're saying compound lifts don't add general mass and strength compared for the time put in? Are you so deep in the SS coolaid that anything other than squats/deads/bench are a waste of time?

Don't put words in my mouth, I explained in the follow-up post you glue-huffing tard. >>42527879

It has the best response to effort and thats all there is to it. Have you even read it? I'm not joking, I really want to know.

>upper back
Deadlift.
>lats
Bench, Pull-ups.

>No, it's apples to steak. There is no training effect of doing power cleans, deads or squats on the arms. The only movements in SS that hit the arms are bench and OHP, which you do a total of 45 reps a week between the two, completely neglecting the biceps and long head of the triceps.

Pull-ups do as well, and Rip recommends lying triceps extension.

>>42528252
>It has the best response to effort and thats all there is to it. Have you even read it? I'm not joking, I really want to know.
>make seperate post I never responded to or saw
>can you read lmao

Maybe think your shit through before hitting submit?

In response to everything else: Wrong.

>>42528252
Rippetoe recs his LTEs which smash the long head to pieces. Not that a beginner strength lifter should give half a shit about the long head.

>>42528372
Lmao, okay kid, sure showed me. If only you could point out WHERE I was wrong, that would be great, but you can't, because you're a retard.

>make seperate post I never responded to or saw
Its because your "workout" explanation always made me go over the post limit, and I had to post again you mong. Also I quoted you, not my fault you're visually impaired and didn't see.

>>42528440
Meant for>>42528372

Read the book then read practical programming for further education as to why you're embarrassing yourself.

>>42528440
How so? What variant would be preferable?

>>42528497
Watch his video on it. Makes perfect sense to involve the stretch reflex to improve weight, ROM and reduce injury risk, exactly how a squat utilities that same reflex.

>>42527870
Imagine this I don't think the average person can do just about anything in the gym except use poor form with ineffective ROM and hurt themselves without guidance.

Again mobility issues exist, but that does not change anything.

Most people are ignorant to nutrition and have no idea how to build muscle.

>>42528618
I did, I thought you meant that Rip's LTE's would negatively harm the muscle.

WAITING FOR THAT STARTING STRENGTH EPUB BRAHS

>>42522896
>squats are enough for abs
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24662228
>comparisons between the trunk isolation exercises and squat variations demonstrated substantially greater anterior trunk activity during the isolation exercise
Squats are better for lower back (no shit) but suck ass for ab development compared to direct ab work
Just look up "squats and ab activation" or something and nearly every source will tell you that you're wrong

I'm tired of this shit

I'm 9 months into SS and I look like a giant fucking baby with huge legs

how do i escape from this

>>42530583
Try out BBB for upper body, it's much more fun and you'll make better gains

>>42528728
Aw

Nah

>>42530619
I also neglected cardio in fear that it would ruin my quat/deadlift

I hate the thought of getting weaker

>>42530664
Try out a 4x4 once a week of HIIT. It's just running for 4 minutes (with a 3 minute walking break) 4 times. Do it after your most intense day and you'll be fine bb. Start off doing 4 minutes, then 3, then 2, then 1 and just increase until you can do a whole 4x4. Then maybe add in another day and do it twice a week

>>42529272
https://url.moosaico.com/138682

>>42530725
how is 4 minutes of running HIIT

>>42530786
a god

>>42523081
>If all of the doctors recommended cigarettes because they're healthy, that does not make them healthy
But the point is they wouldn't ALL say they're healthy, unless they ACTUALLY ARE healthy
>if I'm preforming really heavy squats or deadlifts, and my abs are one of the muscles being used in the lift, my abs will grow as a result because of the intensity.
Unless the abs are only taking on a tiny fraction of the work, as is the case with sq and DL, in which case they are being worked at a fraction of the intensity of the lift as a whole, and that amount of intensity isn't sufficient to stress them. Doing decline sit-ups holding a 45 plate above your head is probably more intense FOR THE ABS ALONE than squatting three times that weight is. So even by your intensity above all else principle squats and deads aren't good for abs.
Now fuck off.
And beginners should just do 5/3/1.

>>42530805
HIIT is just about having your heart rate in a zone that's above ~80% of your max HR, then taking a break, then doing it again. The point of the 4x4 (whether it can be considered HIIT or not) it's good cardio training

>>42530960
My bad, not ABOVE 80% of max HR, 80% OF max HR

>>42523631
this

>>42523593
>I would murder you irl

>>42530973
I know, I just though 80% HRmax for 4 minutes is pretty fucking brutal. I always thought hiit was like 1 min on 30 sec off etc

>>42523631
It's more to do with the fact he doesn't want to have to digress for 100 pages about how to do it properly. He's not an oly coach and isn't interested in coaching the oly lifts, he is providing a quick solution so beginners can reap at least some of the benefits without coaching.

Thing which is good about rip is that when he's wrong he knows it and admits it, and when he's right (or thinks he is) he has the balls to challenge the norm. In a scientific/research point of view, he's got a good, practical mind, much better than yours.

Is he always right? No, but what he knows he knows best. There's a reason he's so highly regarded.

>>42527403
>he thinks specialization is a concern for beginner natties
Maybe your buddies at the gym who've never heard of SS disagree but you are easily proved wrong by literally thousands of extremely strong and aesthetic people on the SS forums who've done exactly that and proved that the rippetoe way works, and is undoubtedly the best way to get strong and get strong fast.

I think the problem is that you've come into this issue with a preconceived notion of what you think is best and are unwilling to change your mind when presented with an alternative.

>>42527403
Rippetoe recommends

>triceps extensions
>chins
>weighted crunches
>curls if you want to do them
>rows if you don't want cleans

Look at that exercise selection. There's nothing fucking wrong with it. Do you want a dedicated arms and calves day or some shit? Or are you hipster enough that close grip bench is more preferable than tried and true bench presses?

>>42532387
thousands is a drop in the bucket compared to the millions of beginning lifters. furthermore i challenge you to show me thousands of resounding successes. you'll find 100s if that.
>>42532436
he does not recommend any of these things for beginners. the topic is startint strength not his intermediate program. nor are any of these offering variation other than rows instead of cleans.

>>42532506
Why don't you offer your opinions as to what variations are better than the ones he recommends.

If you use the phrase "what works for you" I'm out.

>>42532506
>he does not recommend any of these things for beginners
but people do it anyways and call it starting strength xd
it this bad?

>>42532570
I'll just take one example because I don't feel like writing a novel.

Take conventional deadlft. Don't like it? Do jefferson, trap bar, behind the back or sumo. Do them from a rack with more weight. Do back extensions for more posterion chain work.

These are all objectively better to an individual who does not have success with one or the other lifts because it will allow them to progress rapidly in such a situation as already explained a thousand times beginners need variety to choose from in case the few selections you make for them don't work.

>>42532506
* he does recommend chins moving into intermediate

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>>42532667
I know rip has coached all kinds of lifts and he's not against doing them. It's his dogmatic "one size fits all" approach specifically for beginners that pisses me off because I listened to him when I was starting out because he brainwashed the internet into telling everyone it's so great when it's not. If someone had shown me when I was a beginner the variations and the scientific evidence regarding how a frequently a beginner should train I wouldn't have injured myself I'd simply have tried a variation instead. It's his insistence that we're all the same and his chosen lifts are only worth doing that totally fucks beginners over. Not saying those lifts he says are bad but they are bad if you don't make gains with them but could with a variation instead. Instead of wasting months fixing your form or whatever you could just do a variation you're naturally acclimated to. But that doesn't happen in SS because rippleshit gives you no alternatives for his hardline approach and it's bs especially for beginners.

>>42532718
Thought you'd respond that way. There's no such thing as someone "not responding" or "not feeling it" or anything similar unless it involves an injury. If you can't "get it", learn or do another program. The main lifts are easy and coachable and if you struggle, don't just cop out and choose sumo, learn to do it properly.

>>42532906
Are you even attempting to claim that a beginner can't have more success with one lift over another because that's factually wrong. It's not about not responding it's about optimal strength building for a beginner you shit eating faggot. While you're brow beating some clueless noob into performing their 1plate conventional deadlift, mine is already graduates from beginner school by performing 3plate trap bar deadlifts. Beginners absolutely matter of factually respond differently to different lifts and need to be educated on variety.

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>>42532853
>solid program based around squats, pulls and presses
>"totally fucks beginners over"
credibility destination: down the shitter

>>42532963
>missing the point this hard
at this point im fairly certain you work for rip and are bumping this topic for free advertisement. you disgust me.

>>42532956
>"it jus works for me bro :)"
maybe you never learned to correctly do deadlifts, but that's no excuse for blaming rippetoe for your failure. as i said, learn the lifts properly and they will work, they just will. what is this retarded scenario you have invented in which someone just "can't" deadlift and the only way around it is to switch to something else?

you know the reason rippetoe doesn't recommend swapping shit out all the time (aside from the vast experience you lack that he and starr had upon its conception)? it's because people cop out and do leg presses, rack pulls and DB presses, and suffer for it. they don't have people switch to sumo because they want to teach them deadlifts, which they do, negating the need for any other pull for the remainder of the beginner stage.

i'm sorry you made a mess of SS, but your experience doesn't invalidate shit.

>>42533052
>maybe you never learned to correctly do deadlifts, but that's no excuse for blaming rippetoe for your failure
Yes it is. It's his fault that his beginner program fails to include any good alternatives to try and there are many.
>as i said, learn the lifts properly and they will work, they just will
We're not after what works here. If we were we wouldn't be following starting strength because beginners will grow off anything. We're after optimal strength gains. What's optimal for a beginner is making rapid strength gains. A beginner will not make rapid strength gains if they fucking suck at conventional deadlift and are given no good alternatives, that of which, there are many.
>what is this retarded scenario you have invented in which someone just "can't" deadlift and the only way around it is to switch to something else?
That's not the scenario you fucking retard. The scenario is a beginner who has no hands on experience with lifting does not make good progress with the lifts provided by Rippleshit. In which case there options are to
a) keep wasting time with his his shit program
b) quit
>because people cop out and do leg presses, rack pulls and DB presses, and suffer for it
This is classic fail fitness preemptively solving an issue people don't have. Unless you're certain this is the reason why you have no business making such prognosis. Furthermore there's no reason a beginner shouldn't freely choose these lifts instead if it means they progress faster with them then they'll make better gains. And beginners grow off anything as we already know so why not? There's no good reason. You have failed on both fronts with your logic here.

>>42533236
your arguments all ignore one fundamental trope which you failed to grasp when you attempted SS and have carried through all the way to this his wonderful discussion: an alternative is not required if you can learn the main lifts properly. a beginner will no longer suck at deadlifts if they learn them properly, and come on mate it's really not rocket science. rip and starr put together the program which they believed was the LEAST reliant on the idea of a beginner getting strong from anything, and they were evidently correct. guys finish that program with massive numbers all the damn time. 405 squats are almost commonplace following SS. swapping, chopping and changing takes from that brings one closer to that premise of being able to just grow doing whatever ie closer to bad programming.

as i keep saying - if you can't do it, do not give it up and try something else, get it right. i mean this is just basic life advice. fundamentally, SS with close bench in place of bench, snatch presses in place of OHP, rack pulls in place of deads and front squats in place of squats is going to produce different results, which rippetoe understandably takes no responsibility for.

i'm now going to bed so congratulations you will get the last word.

>>42533320
>an alternative is not required if you can learn the main lifts properly
There's nothing proper about progressing slowly with lifts you, "properly learned" when you could be progressing faster with an alternative lift. How will the beginner know if they never try? Fact is you've pigeon holed them into too few lifts, forcing them into specializing way too early. You fucked them over straight out the gate. They may well never make good progress in these lifts and ultimately quit. Had they had an alternative they could have turned into Hulk or some shit who knows what they'd become if your shit limiting program didn't convince them of their failure.
>a beginner will no longer suck at deadlifts if they learn them properly
And that's factually wrong. There are many people who spend year after year performing conventional deadlifts and never get very good enough at them to elicit optimal strength gains for a variety of reasons.
>guys finish that program with massive numbers all the damn time
Fact is we have no hard numbers on success rates. You're doing nothing more than parroting sourceless talking points provided by SS.
>if you can't do it, do not give it up and try something else, get it right. i mean this is just basic life advice
Or you could, you know, find another way.
>SS with close bench in place of bench, snatch presses in place of OHP, rack pulls in place of deads and front squats in place of squats is going to produce different results, which rippetoe understandably takes no responsibility for
Good and he deserves no credit for a sensible program that provides sensible alternatives. His shitty limiting program that leaves people fat and injured deserves nothing but ridicule.

>>42523081
> You need at least 5 years to make it look obvious that you lift.

Maybe if you do SS for five years

>>42527403
>.
I would say that most knowledgeable lifters would both agree and disagree with many aspects and merits both + and - of a 5 x 5 program, but not every or even a majority of knowledgeable lifters would as closed minded as you seem to be or agrees with you.

>>42533804
k but that's not what's being discussed at all