thoughts about vegetarianism for a beginner? I could care less

>>42289755
no.
ethical reasons are the only valid reasons to go vegetarian/vegan.

You base diet (To cover your BMR) should be keto/low carb, and what you burn through activity can be covered by more carbs.

>>42289780
Don't listen to this guy. He's trying to meme you into killing yourself.

Anyway, vegetarianism is pointless unless you're vegan. Dairy and eggs are terrible for you. Lots of junk food available on a vegan diet too though so it's not automatically healthier. You still have to think about nutrients and calories and sugar content and trans fats and whatnot. But going vegan is a good place to start if you want to be healthy.

There is a scientific consensus that it is indeed healthier than an animal based diet overall.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3662288/

>>42289803
give me a hint of what a causal vegan diet would be like. It's kinda hard to imagine no eggs, butter for the eggs, yogurt, but possible.

>>42289849
Replace eggs with tofu, yogurt with soy/almond/cashew/coconut yogurt. Earth Balance in place of butter. Easy peasy. Just as much variety in a vegan diet as an omnivorous one so your imagination is really the only limit. But the basis of it would obviously be beans, grains, nuts, seeds, fruit, veggies.

www.pinterest.com/vfortheanimals

>>42289949
Lmao Pinterest

>>42289803
Lol at the example case study they used. You really think if the doc said "oh yeah, also get some chicken breasts and fresh salmon in there" that his biometrics would have gotten worse than without them?

You know why doctors recommend a vegan diet? Because the studies are bad. Many don't take into account lifestyle choices, such as smoking, which meat eaters do more. They also don't take into account exactly what types of meat is consumed. Most of America eats processed shit, so that's what the conclusions will be based off of.

There's nothing inherently bad about eating free range eggs, free ranged beef, fresh Atlantic salmon, etc. Etc.

>>42289949
Yeah Fuck up your hormone profile with lots of soy instead.

Jesus just eat healthy meats, fruit and veg and no processed crap.

>>42289991
There are so many stupid assumptions in this comment I don't even feel like debunking it. You people exhaust me.

>>42289974
Pinterest is great for gathering recipes, faggot.

>>42289991
Fresh Atlantic salmon.

Literally the ocean with the shittiest farm raised food dyed salmon.

Nigga... You dumb.

>>42290009
Soy doesn't affect hormone levels in men...They contain phytoestrogens which are useless in human bodies. Animal products have real estrogen that DOES significantly affect hormone levels. Get your shit straight, pal.

>>42290023
this is op, please debunk them for me. I'm really interested in this, so can you please give your insight on what anon wrote I want to hear a counter argument to that

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>>42289755
>I could care less about the ethical reasons
That means you do care
>>42289849
pic
>>42289991
Is there something in fresh atlantic salmon and free range eggs that can't be found in a vegan diet? What nutrient is it?
>>42290009
There is literally no study that confirms that soy raises serum estrogen in men or women.

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>>42289849
more sample meals (isocaloric comparison vs eggs)

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>>42289849
More sample meals

>>42290058
Alright I'll do it for you even though I'm really freaking tired right now.

1. Yes, I think his biometrics would have been worse than without them because chicken and salmon still have cholesterol which obviously affects his cholesterol and fat which causes the diabetes. The evidence for this is strong.

2. Doctors recommend a vegan diet because all the best evidence about diet points to it. A lot of them do take into account lifestyle choices such as smoking and what types of meat is consumed, but you wouldn't know that because you haven't read more than one study in your life. And a lot of the studies are actually done on specific components of animal products like IGF-1, heme, Neu5Gc, casein, etc.

3. Free range is a marketing term which 99% of the time doesn't mean shit expect that the birds are cramped together and being tortured without cages enclosing them.

4. There are definitely inherently bad things about eating those. Like the components mentioned above, also cholesterol and saturated fat.

>>42290114
except*

Like I said I'm really tired. And with that, goodnight.

>>42290122
>tired
eat some meat and you won't be so tired buddy

>>42289755
If you're looking for a reasonable discussion why Veganism is over conflated with health, there's a lot of valid criticism on the internet that is targeted toward vegan literature

https://deniseminger.com/2010/07/07/the-china-study-fact-or-fallac/

tl;dr researchers have been fooling millions that veganism is actually healthier

>>42290531
>lOoK tHe ChInA sTudY wAs dEbUNKed

>>42290531
>If you're looking for a reasonable discussion why Veganism is over conflated with health, there's a lot of valid criticism on the internet that is targeted toward vegan literature
Strawman.
The fact that the china study was poorly designed and is debunked does not invalidate veganism. That's like me wearing a lab coat, feeding someone steak, taking his blood test, publish a paper and say "meat eating is bad"
Just because a quack researcher reached a conclusion doesn't mean that the subject itself is also shit.
It's the fallacy fallacy.

>>42289991

>Many don't take into account lifestyle choices, such as smoking, which meat eaters do more

Which is good, because if the same oversight is made for all test groups then the result (i.e.: a vegetarian diet builds a healthier body) still rings true.

It's not as if all the meat eaters smoked cigarettes and all the vegetarians didn't.

>>42291828
yeah but meat eaters are statistically more likely to be the average American who is

> fat
> prediabetic
> sedentary
> a smoker
> with horrible diet

it's a bias, but it's so difficult to control for all of those that most studies don't, and then trumpet the LE VEGAN DIET IS SUPERIOR meme

>>42292405
This is true, but it all refers to correlation.
On the other hand, there are LITERALLY ZERO studies that prove that veganism is INHERENTLY unhealthy. We have no mechanistic data that show that it's bad to omit meat, eggs and dairy from our diets. There is no causation.
So, we can be vegan all we want.

>>42289755
do it for ethical reasons, not health. Only ignorant shilled goyims could think that veganism is healthier than just your basic organic and clean diet. When they do those veganism studies, they're conparig themselves to literally slobs who eat at McDonald's everyday and never walk more than 500 steps/day

>>42292441
you're totally correct. By all means, go vegan, but don't cite flawed studies as infallible scientific proof

>>42292441
Except most vegans seem to be anorexic.

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Why can't people just follow the goddamn food pyramid?

>>42290114
>fat causes diabetes
Holy shit vegans dumber than my mom. Does protein have steroids in it too you fucking walking skeleton?

>>42292476
Correlation, irrelevant. Eat a jar of pb a day (vegan) and tell me you lost weight.
>>42292469
I wish half the board was half as reasonable as you.

>>42289755
>thoughts about vegetarianism for a beginner?
When i see on youtube the meals these vegetarians cook up, they use so many different veggies and shit i never heard of. Their diet must be really high in nutrients. If they added meat to their diets they would be 10/10

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>>42289780
>low carb

If you're trying to grow a pussy that is. You low carb keto kikes need to get the fuck off this board considering all of you are either obese or skinnyfat dyel.

>>42292564
Top kek this is so true ,
most of the people who shit on carb and praise the Lchf diet are always nonathletic people struggling with their body shape / weight .

Meanwhile anyone who is good at a real sports and physically active eat tons of carbs and usually avoid having too much fat in his diet beside pufa / mufa and maybe a bit of sat from eggs .

>>42289755
>but for a healthier body and mind, is vegetarianism the answer?
No because it's not rooted in health to begin with but pseudoscience, dietary memes and religious quakery. Animal products are healthy for you and there's no reason to avoid them unless you have legitimate medical problems with them
>http://chaosandpain.blogspot.com/2010/07/vegetarianism-and-veganism-best.html
>http://chaosandpain.blogspot.com/2010/07/vegetarianism-and-veganism-are-as.html
>http://www.lloydianaspects.co.uk/opinion/veggie.html
>(cont.)

>>42292715
Stop shilling that fucking unscientific roidblog, holy shit
Inb4 >you didn't read
Fuck off, I did and wasted my time

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>>42292715
>(cont.)
>>42289803
> Dairy and eggs are terrible for you.
No, they're not.
>http://suppversity.blogspot.com/2014/01/true-or-false-dairy-is-toxic-hormone.html
Also highly doubt the"milk=prostate cancer" entirely especially when in the article it says:
>Estrone and prostate cancer risk in men: As far as the estrone levels Maruyama et al. measured in their 2010 study are concerned it is very difficult to tell, whether or not the 26% increase in E2 levels is or isn't a problem.
>The estrone values in the Maruyama study are unrealistic. With a normal range of <68pg/ml the subjects in the Maruyama study would have elevated E1 levels to begin with, if the measurement was correct.
>difficult to tell
>unrealistic
and
>What remains to be seen, though, is whether future epidemiological evidence will support or refute the currently heralded hypothesis that dairy consumption increases prostate cancer risk and whether we will be able to identify more feasible explanations for this relations than those that are implicated by the results Maruyama et al. present in their 2010 study.
>http://sciencedrivennutrition.com/hormones-milk/
>http://suppversity.blogspot.de/2014/05/bcfa-gut-health-immunity-cancer.html
>http://suppversity.blogspot.com/2013/12/dairy-good-bad-or-ugly-latest-studies.html
>http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/07315724.2011.10719992
>http://suppversity.blogspot.com/search?q=eggs
>There is a scientific consensus that it is indeed healthier than an animal based diet overall.
Funny how that's not backed up by either the human historical record, biology or legitimate science anywhere.
>(cont.)

>>42292784
>(cont.)
>>42290114
>because chicken and salmon still have cholesterol which obviously affects his cholesterol and fat which causes the diabetes.
This is another retarded dietary meme
>https://authoritynutrition.com/it-aint-the-fat-people/
>https://authoritynutrition.com/top-8-reasons-not-to-fear-saturated-fats/
>>https://authoritynutrition.com/saturated-fat-good-or-bad/
>https://chriskresser.com/the-diet-heart-myth-cholesterol-and-saturated-fat-are-not-the-enemy/
>http://press.endocrine.org/doi/full/10.1210/jcem.85.1.6291
>https://breakingmuscle.com/fuel/why-all-humans-need-to-eat-meat-for-health
>>42292754
>Stop shilling that fucking unscientific roidblog, holy shit
Your feelings don't make what I post unscientific
>Fuck off
>No and stay mad
I did and wasted my time
And you already answered why
>Inb4 >you didn't read
along with being butthurt at facts.

>>42289755
No because a vegetarian diet is inferior to a vegan diet.

>>42290009
>healthy meats
That's an oxymoron.

>>42290052
>https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21353476
>https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11103227
>https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15735098
>https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/labs/articles/10798211/
>Poor cognitive test performance, enlargement of ventricles and low brain weight were each significantly and independently associated with higher midlife tofu consumption. A similar association of midlife tofu intake with poor late life cognitive test scores was also observed among wives of cohort members, using the husband's answers to food frequency questions as proxy for the wife's consumption. Statistically significant associations were consistently demonstrated in linear and logistic multivariate regression models. Odds ratios comparing endpoints among "high-high" with "low-low" consumers were mostly in the range of 1.6 to 2.0.
>https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10763906
From an anon describing the studies below and the same on isoflavones: Genistein, dihydrogenistein, and equol have essentially the same binding affinity and degree of receptor activation at ERb as endogenous estrogen. Same with dihydrogenistein and equol at ERa. 3 oz of steak contains 1.9ng of estrogen, 8 ounces of soy milk contains 30000ng of isoflavone, clearly higher on a mole for mole basis. And unlike phytoestrogens estrogen is catabolized by the gastrointestinal tract and only about 5% survives first pass to the liver.
>http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/bph.13622/full
>http://press.endocrine.org/doi/pdf/10.1210/endo.139.10.6216
>https://www.jstage.jst.go.jp/article/bpb/24/4/24_4_351/_article
>http://newsroom.unl.edu/announce/beef/2846/15997
>http://www.ars.usda.gov/SP2UserFiles/Place/12354500/Data/isoflav/Isoflav_R2.pdf
>http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0958694611002123
Jamie Lewis on soy
>http://chaosandpain.blogspot.com/2010/09/soy-is-devil-and-not-in-fun-way.html
>http://chaosandpain.blogspot.com/2010/09/soy-is-devil-and-not-in-fun-way-22-12.html

>>42290114

1. Show me a study that demonstrates a causal link between serum cholesterol and diabetes or arteriosclerosis... You can't because there isn't one. Show me conclusive evidence that eating meat and eggs actually significantly raises serum cholesterol that isn't just a 'possible' link. You can't because there isn't one.
In fact the diabetes association in the uk has done numerous promising studies in treating diabetes with low carb diets. Low carb has had the exact opposite effect in those studies to what you have stated.

2. Doctors do not fucking recommend a vegan diet you nutbar. In fact I would imagine that as fed up as most doctors are at having to indulge the obese and gluttonous they're just as fucking sick of having to treat nutrient deficient kids and hippies that think they can live on cow food.

3. Depends on the country and the regulations. When I buy free range it is free range... Not that I really give much of a fuck because chickens exist to be eaten.

4. There is nothing inherently bad about eating those things and you can not prove otherwise. Given that there is no causal link between high cholesterol and any disease it means nothing to state that consumption of these foods raises cholesterol. Yes, so what? They also help to raise HDL levels which have been show, as much as LDL is 'bad' to be beneficial.

You're literally operating on decades old debunked science that claimed saturated fat had a link to heart disease and then you're telling people what to eat like you're an authority.

You vegan fucking raiders are testing my patience to the fucking limit on this board. Get the fuck back to whence you came.

>>42292833
i think it might be just a regular moron

>>42289755
if you want healthy lifestyle maybe combine both or was that too much of a brainstorm? i eat vegetables with every meal.

no side of spectrum is healthy being vegan on one and only meat on the other. stay in the middle and be happy

>>42291222
Fucking hard
>https://rawfoodsos.files.wordpress.com/2010/08/minger_formal_response2.pdf
>https://deniseminger.com/2010/08/06/final-china-study-response-html/
>https://deniseminger.com/2010/08/03/the-china-study-a-formal-analysis-and-response/
>https://www.westonaprice.org/our-blogs/the-curious-case-of-campbells-rats-does-protein-deficiency-prevent-cancer/
>https://www.westonaprice.org/our-blogs/taking-a-trip-down-memory-lane-fishing-for-our-good-friend-glutathione-in-the-waters-of-the-memory-hole-how-t-colin-campbell-helped-prove-that-protein-protects-us
>>42291620
>Strawman
>It's the fallacy fallacy.
Except his statement is neither and he's right.
>>42292849
> Get the fuck back to whence you came.
That would be Reddit
>https://www.reddit.com/r/nutrition/comments/6j8kwb/i_would_just_like_to_point_out_a_few_fallacies/
>https://desuarchive.org/fit/thread/41857705/#41861522

>>42292405

There are plenty of vegetarians who smoke, don't be an idiot.

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>>42290114
>IGF-1, heme, Neu5Gc, casein, etc.
>>42292784
>>42292951
>http://www.saragottfriedmd.com/does-meat-cause-cancer-revisiting-the-meat-igf-1-and-cancer-connection/
>http://caloriesproper.com/red-meat-wont-kill-you-it-will-make-you-stronger/

>>42292441
Sure, but it requires manufactured B12 supplements or artificially fortified food, it isn't optimal for human beings whatsoever

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Dear god the defensive meat eaters in this thread DO NOT know how to check their sources. All these fucking blogs.

>>42289755
Get your filling of micro nutrients through vegetables.(yes, this will require reading, thinking, and learning)
If you don't plan on changing your eating habits look into juicing.

>>42294137
>yes, this will require reading, thinking, and learning
No it doesn't
Micros are fucking easy if you aren't eating like shit

>>42294185
Do tell me where you get most of your micro nutrients from.

>>42294200
Veg, where did I refute that?

>>42290101
Still falling for the cholesterol meme

>>42294226
okay we're on the same page, but you want to argue or something so I'll hand you some (you)s.

>>42294185
>>this will require reading, thinking, and learning
>No it doesn't
That's where you're fucking wrong, kiddo. The vast majority of people don't actually know how much of their DV of micro nutrients they're feeding themselves. I say this with reasonable anecdotal evidence.
Those that attain their DV of micro nutrients through nutrition pills usually don't even absorb most of the nutrients due to low bio-availability.

>>42294069
>Dear god the defensive meat eaters in this thread DO NOT know how to check their sources.
No, you're just to lazy and to read and do proper research

>>42291620
First you accuse me of the strawman fallacy, and then you accuse me of the fallacy fallacy?

It doesn't change the fact that "The China Study" has been (and still is) used to further Veganism propaganda, and there's quite a lot of people who still believe in it

i was vegan for 4 years but felt weak and developed acid reflux

i added eggs whites to my diet and sardines. have felt much better.

still don't eat meat or milk tho.

try it op