>everyone agrees that your body stores fat for times when

>>40948143
pretty sure the body consumes some muscle as well as fat

>>40948143
Muscle is burned before fat because muscle takes more calories per day to maintain. If your body thinks it's gonna be awhile with no food, it's going to make what stores fat it does have, last. Read the fucking sticky next time

>>40948143
https://www.biolayne.com/media/videos/video-log/intermittent-fasting-work/

Fasting is OK not optimal.

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>>40948164
No more than when you're in a standard calorie deficit.

>>40948173
>the f*cking sticky

See pic.

>>40948143
>sacrificing your gainz
>ever

>>40948194
You're fucking stupid, you know that? I regret even giving you a legitimate answer

>>40948143
You're relying on a bunch of NEETS man.

I have a shitty bachelors in Biology, I'm actually in cloud computing sales now, but I still have all my old notes.

You're right, you will burn through your fat stores first. Your body going catabolic is incredibly rare, not only does your body break down muscle for energy but it can also break down bone as well. We're talking level 10 starvation here though, not "oh I'm fasting for 5 days" or what have you.

Catabolic is unfortunately now a term thrown around by bro science youtube channels to sell their supplements, and most people don't have a college education so they're fools and believe in an internet personality who also doesn't have any proper education in the area.

Whatever, don't believe me look it up yourself. You can waste time an money in all the stupid bullshit you want. I mean hell you're on 4 chan

>>40948204
Nice bait you can't possibly be this stupid.

>>40948227
>shitty bachelors in Bio

Yeah, your post is showing that you didn't deserve it because you sure as shit didn't earn it, retard

Fasting has been lost in our culture in the last 100 years. Mainly because you can’t make money telling people not to eat and you can’t sell pills to healthy people, but I digress. Fasting is an ancient practice found in practically all religions. It makes evolutionary sense as well. If you haven’t eaten in a while you don’t want your body to shut down, you want it to rev up so you can get out there and find some food.

Oh, and worried that you’ll lose muscle mass on a fast? Your body always goes for the fat stores first, that’s what it’s there for. Why chop up the sofa if you have firewood available. In fact, in males, your Human Growth Hormone (HGH) increases up to 2000% while fasting. Source:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W1fiGJxkFWU

If you think you're body will go for protein stores before it goes for fat stores then you are retarded.

>>40948238
>Source
>YouTube link

Why does /fit/ pseudo intellect shitpost the worst of any other board?

>>40948237
10/10 counter argument, 10/10 source, 20/10

>>40948246
Yeah because if I linked to a scientific study everyone here would jump to go read 10 pages of latin and greek mumbo jumbo.

Its more palatable to just link Youtube videos.

>>40948265
See
>>40948238

You stupid code monkey

>>40948143
You won't lose your muscle. The reason protein is found in the urine is because your body is undergoing autophogy. This is a process only activated during fasting which cleans house. It eats up all the dead, old cells so it can replace them with new ones as soon as you eat again.'

This is essential for keeping a healthy, disease free, and younger looking body.

>>40948238
>Mainly because you can’t make money telling people not to eat and you can’t sell pills to healthy people, but I digress.
Yeah you can, people do it all the time. The whole vitamin industry is built on exactly the latter, with a lot of dubious overdiagnosing practices in psychiatry on top of it.
As for the former, it's not real fasting but "juice fasts" are totally a craze. Not to mention religious fasting, causes like 40 hour famine, stupid chicks trying to lose weight without long term commitment, the fucking intermittent fasting craze. People fast literally all the fucking time.

>>40948307
The big money is in the pharmacuetical and and food industries, though. When you don't incorporate a fasting period in your diet than your insulin levels will perpetually rise and so too will your insulin resistance.

The food industry loves this because you eat and eat and eat and eat. The pharmaceutical companies love this because you have pain, high blood sugar, bad cholesterol problems etc etc.

Its called break-FAST for a reason people.

>>40948173
That seems like sych a design flaw. The fasting explination makes far more sense to me.

>>40948164
>>40948173
the human body isn't as stupid as you are

>>40948334

You sound like a nut job.
>wake up sheeple!

>>40948358
Nah its just a bi-product of capitalism and a sad truth :/

>>40948358
That's right, he does. Unfortunately he's completely correct.

>>40948173

Not if you're using it. It might take more energy to keep, but it's also vital to being able to hunt and gather more food, to fight off enemies, like that strange beast that keeps trying to crush you in intervals of 5 every other day, like a cat toying with its prey.

Simply axing muscle is just a recipe for fatal starvation. Sure, by sacrificing muscle you'll keep all that juicy fat to live off, but without muscle to access more food it's just a needlessly prolonged death.

>>40948238
if your HGH would jump up to 2000% of your baseline it'd prolly be close to injecting 10-20iu of growth hormone

that'd be high enough difference that you'd start seeing your hands and feet grow after a few years of doing weekly fasts so im calling bs

link the study and not some jew spouting shit in a youtube vid

Calories in calories out is good and proven to work, but if you listen to all this keto, fasting shit, it actually makes a lot of sense. Its more about loosing fat as opposed to weight, im going on a fast for a couple days tomorrow so ill start a thread then and post results.

Crosslinked for /fat/fucks

Articles on IF
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3680567/

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25546413

IF Studys
https://clinicaltrials.gov/show/NCT02132091

Ongoing
https://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT02770313

>>40948432
>Calories in calories out is good and proven to work
eat junk food with lots of added sugar, same calories
go ahead

>>40948486
Did you read everything i said?

>>40948532
fuck off

>>40948532
no I stopped there

>>40948540
Wewlad.exe calm down, i just said i believe there is alot of truth to fasting and im going to experience it first hand for myself and post results. Dont be a politician you pathetic cunt, just trying to have a discussion for the good of all the readers here.

>>40948432
>>40948486
I think the takeaway from this thread is count your calories AND your macros. Eat well and lift hard, and boom you'll have the physique you want.

>>40948173
After extended period of time without eating, body will release glucagon, the hormone opposite to insulin, causing general catabolism. By catabolism I mean breakdown of complex molecules into simpler ones. Think protein => aminoacids, fatty acids => Acetyl CoA, glycogen => glucose. This will affect everything from muscle mass to adipose tissue

The first energy store to go is glycogen, mostly stored in the liver but also cached in muscle. Glucose is important for the brain but also red blood cells, which are incapable of metabolizing fat since they lack nucleus

Fat will be broken down and used by many tissues, but they generally don't penetrate the blood-brain barrier

Aminoacids are perfectly good sources of energy and they will be used as such

After a while ketone bodies will be synthesized in the liver so that tissues such as the brain can have energy. The brain also synthesizes its own ketone bodies in normal conditions since the blood-brain barrier blocks free fatty acids

I'm not even shilling IF but it has worked wonders for me. I am having MUCH better workouts fasted in the morning. Feels amazing breh. And i know its working when im feeling that hunger before bed.. brehh IF is the shit

Is 3 days a good start for someone who's never fasted? Having quit alcohol and smoking cold turkey I'm pretty confident in my willpower. Does one have to alter their training while fasting?

>>40948718
the thing is, 48-72 hours is usually the point where fasting starts to get a lot easier. therefore it makes more sense to either do 24 hours, or longer fasts (5+ days).

>>40948718

Three days without food? How many of you guys go days without food? I'm doing 16/8 and it seems fine. Anything more than that sounds extreme and necessary.

>>40948748
I haven't gone a day without food in my life, but I've never been fat so I haven't had to restrict cals ever. Having never fasted though I'm at least curios to try it before I make any judgement.

>>40948748
16 hours is barely a fast. 20 hours is the minimium in my opinion to talk about fasting. More preferably.

It doesn´t even fucking matter if you hit your calories. there certainly are insulin based benefits for eating one huge meal

>>40948748
longer fasts = faster fat loss

i'm on hour 48, which is the longest i've gone so far

>>40948780
>faster everything loss

ftfy

>>40948812
reread the op, you smeghead

Black coffee is allowed during a fast, correct?

>>40948948
if you're doing it for autophagy, then stick to water and salt. otherwise, yes.

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>>40948403
>like that strange beast that keeps trying to crush you in intervals of 5 every other day, like a cat toying with its prey.
gave me a heartly chuckle

>>40948276
Why don't you just link to a porn videos then? Much more palatable and equally conclusive.

>>40948963

Why do you say this. Everything I've read suggests that black coffee either does not hinder autophagy at all or might even enhance it.

>>40948411
I don't have one, and you probably shouldn't listen to him. If you could help find an article I would appreciate it. I know that HGH is released during a fast but how much is the question. I have a feeling the HGH released is more to rebuild the protein cells that are autophagocytized during atophagy and less about building more mass.

>>40949051
That's actually a good one.

>>40948963
>>40949255
I'd also like to know more about this because I've been drinking salt water and black coffee on my fasts. I'll do some digging and check back.

>>40949255
>>40949288
on the latest episode of the Fasting Talk podcast, they said that there's a chance that it could hinder autophagy and that, until more research is done, it's better to avoid it (IF autophagy is your main reason for fasting)

>>40948342
>design flaw
body burns muscle so there is less body to maintain, therefore less food is needed
seems prrfectly reasonable to me

>>40949311
I mean autophagy is pretty much a miracle function. The doctor within. If they say they don't know than I won't risk it 'til they do. I want those autophagy gains.

>fast-fags say fat will be depleted instead of muscle
>when I tried it, I lost huge quantities of muscle. Struggled to even do 3 chin ups.

Explain this.

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>>40949347
>be caveman
>hunting, can't find any food
>body goes into starvation mode
>shuts down brain, shuts down energy to muscles
>die instantly

The opposite happens. In fact your brain power goes up and so too does your metabolism. Why? So you can get your ass out there and find some fucking food.

>>40949372
You probably didn't lose muscle, but your energy levels were low and your recovery was sub-par.

I personally don't believe lifting on an empty stomach is a good idea.

>>40949311

It's not my main reason and a strong black coffee is one of the finest pleasures in life first thing in the morning so I will risk it.

If it turns out that they show it hinder autophagy I'll go without.

I don't see why though given that it's the caloric deprivation of the fast that kicks up autophagy. Why would consuming a drink with no calories in it stop that in any significant way?
Then again I have no understanding beyond what I read so I don't know shit.

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>>40949424
ACSHULLY a cup of black coffee contains ~2 calories on average

I searched autophagy and what I found made no sense. Can someone break it down a little bit? This thread seems to emphasize it in the context of fasting.

>>40949452
it's your body getting rid of shitty old cells and protein. it's been suggested that it can slow down aging and prevent alzheimer's

>>40949486
Sounds like nothing but benefits. How come more effort isn't put into getting info like this out instead of fit tea and wraps and all that bullshit.

>>40948143
I honestly don't understand what you're trying ask/where you're confused.
your body takes away from muscle when your deficit it too high. your body requires a min. amount of body fat to function- so its not going to just take all of your deficit from fat, thats not efficient for how the body is meant to function. so when your deficit is too big, your body only takes so much from fat and then starts taking away from muscle, internal organs, etc.

>>40949518
You're confusing fasting with a low calorie diet.

>>40949506

Because there's very little money to be made telling people to only eat within a 6 hour window every day.

How can you sell anything with that? You can't even sell some meme plan because it literally is as simple as 'don't consume calories except within your 6 hour window'.

>>40948748
72 hrs supposedly cranks up white blood cell generation. Which makes sense. If you're not eating your body would go into self defense mode

>>40948173
It's literally the opposite, your body burns excess fat first and only starts using protein in muscles when that's gone.

>50 hours of fasting
>breath still doesn't smell like acetone

what did my body mean by this?

>>40948403
lol

>>40949506
3 meals a day has always been a meme. telling people just to eat when they're hungry wouldn't sell a lot of corn flakes

Okay, so can someone link actual study as to what happens during a fast?

>hurr you lose fat
>hurr no you lose muscle first


which fucking one is it?

>fast for 20 hours on workout days(only eat right before and after workout)
>eat little to nothing on rest days
>make the post workout meal fucking huge to the point where youd be at a calorie surplus

What would that do to a man?

>>40952757
>fast
>for 20 hours
>fast
Yeah, I'm fasting like 3 hours between each meal, too. Fasting stronk!

>>40948173
lmao then why have I only gained 4 pounds in the last 4 months eating 1k calories over maintenance while making large strength gains and gaining no visble fat?? Only 4 months ago I started fasting. The difference is that I fast an hour after a workout, then eat a considerable amount. I also dont eat before noon. Coincidence??

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>>40955308
>I fast an hour

>>40952155
If you're fat you're gonna lose fat. The closer to get to a low bf%, the harder it will be to lose just fat.

This is why people hop on gear to get shredded, because getting to low bf% while retaining large amounts of muscle isn't as easy natty.

>>40955308
>doesnt acknowledge that including sleep I fast at least 12 hours every day from 10pm-12am until noon the next day

>>40955394
>>40955427

The point about fasting is to reduce insulin, as insulin causes fat gain and blocks the metabolism of fats.

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>>40955396
I'm skinnyfat. 130 lbs, 5'9. I have a small belly, that's pretty much it. Do I do GOMAD and lift or do I starve myself, get rid of the fat stomach and then do GOMAD and lift?

>>40955623
Just GOMAD. Don't bother to lift your dont need to while you GOMAD.

>>40955645
Nah man, I'll definitely lift. I don't want to be a fat cunt.

>>40955677
Well, if that's the way you want it, i would suggest SS along with GOMAD.

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>>40955702
yeah, I was planning on it. I just want to cease being a skelleton and acquire strength, something I have not had, ever.

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>>40955739
Good luck bro

>>40955768
thanks m8

>>40949818
stop talking.

the body burns muscle that is deemed unnecessary. If you cut and only do cardio, you will lose tons of muscle. A significant stimulus is required to keep muscle while cutting.

Body only really uses muscle for energy when it's sedentary.

>>40948173
if you lose all your muscle first then you can't hunt for food.

i think this only applies when you are completely bedridden and barely eating

>>40955645
How much fat and how much muscle do you get from GOMAD? Is it all just fat? Because that would fucking suck.

>>40955815
>the body is an intelligent brain and not a dynamic system

Neck yourself idiot

>>40955901 (You)

>>40948143
>all
No, not all, some will be lost.

>>40949387
>Hunting means running large distances mostly

Ever seen a profesionnal marathon runner? You don't need much muscle to be an efficient runner.

>>40956206
Ironically, marathon runners are the best at using fat for energy despite eating almost no fat.

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>>40948143
Everyone who thinks they already know the truth, google the Two Compartment Problem and fucking learn something.

>>40956411
give me the cliffs notes, can't be arsed researching at work

>>40956411
>Two Compartment Problem
It's interesting to read these studies that say 99% of the time CICO fails because it succeeds 100% of the time for me whenever I need to cut.

I get the feeling CICO works for people who are healthy but fails once you pass a certain threshold of consistent BF%/insulin resistance.

>>40955308
t...thats not fasting thats basic living

>>40956703
>healthy skepticism plus an understanding of basic metabolic mechanisms
Good! When someone points you to a link, don't just buy it or reject it wholesale without bothering to understand what is being said.

Anyway, I tend to ignore the "rhetoric" sections of the argument (annoying but necessary who don't know any better, or who do but irrationally resist new ideas) and home in on the actual lynchpins of the underlying theory. In the case of this "Two Compartment Problem" the underlying truths are: the function of insulin, the Randle cycle, glycolysis, lipolysis, de novo lipogenesis, the long-term stability of bariatrics, the sharp fall in RMR for people on LCHF diets... it all seems to check out.

I'm gonna need time to go through this more thoroughly, but I'm kind of amused that none of these ideas are new or revolutionary (most of the research has existed for about 60 years), and in fact figuring out that these mechanisms worked this way is how we discovered them, with nothing since to indicate any different.

>>40956411
One of the few times that I found that the youtube lecture actually had additional useful info compared to the article that prompted it.

24hr Fasting increases testosterone

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>>40948620
>actual fact based scientific explanation amongst the memers

Lmaoooooo kid get real

>>40957074
If you liked that, read up on the Randle cycle and the inhibition of the glycolytic pathway, aka how fatty acid oxidation throttles glucose metabolism.

>>40955623

GOMAD+SS was made for you. Cut fat when you have fat to cut. If you cut then do GOMAD, then you'll have basically made the cut a waste of time on hard mode, it's putting the cart before the horse.

>>40955645

For the love of god, please be trolling.
The entire point of GOMAD is to support noob lifting.

>>40948143
You're talking about fasting as part of a fitness regimen, which is usually shorter bouts of fasting at measured intervals. But when you say fasting to a person who isn't in that mindset, they reasonable hear fasting and think of extreme extended fasting, which is just starvation and will eventually lead to significant bodymass losses including muscle.

From a fitness standpoint, fasts are a great tool if you know how to use them properly; extreme extended fasts are ill advised, potentially dangerous, and just unnecessary.

>>40948143
Information for water-only fasts:
- glucose is the most important substance the body needs and uses up in order to function
- 0 hrs: immediately after a meal, the body runs on the glucose from that meal until it's gone; then it switches to using glucose stored in the liver as glycogen (you have about a 24-hour supply of glycogen)

- 24 hrs: muscle loss begins; body starts using fatty acids for fuel, breaking down the fatty acids in both the visible reserves of fat in the body and around the organs; some parts of the body, primarily the brain and red blood cells, can only function using glucose; glucose is retrieved from glycerol in the fat tissues and some amino acids in muscle, thus beginning the process of muscle deterioration

- 48-72 hrs: "protein sparing"; body acts to limit muscle loss, beginning ketosis (liver produces ketone bodies from fatty acids that the brain can use as fuel; only the red blood cells will continue using the muscles for fuel); reduces muscle loss significantly

- +72 hrs: ketosis continues as long as there is enough fat in the body; prolonged fasting can lead to a state marked by harmful levels of ketone bodies and high levels of acidity in the blood; ketosis usually starts after 48 hours for women instead of the 72 hours for men; please note that ketosis is different than ketoacidosis (usually a controlled state, triggered by low-carbohydrate intake; ketoacidosis releases far more ketone bodies and is often a result of uncontrolled diabetes); avoid this range if your main goal is strength, aim here if you need the extreme weight loss that comes with this kind of dangerous medical intervention

Basically, most people start to lose muscle mass after 24 to 48 hours. Some suggest consuming a liquid containing glucose in order to ease muscle loss but honestly this just fucks up your fast, and considering the fact that you get many of the benefits of a fast in the first 24 hours anyway. Have fun!

>>40948143
Modern science has known since 1915 about the guaranteed metabolic slowdown that accompanies merely reducing calories without fasting. Why the self-help and mainstream fitness industries are so resistant to the knowledge, I have no idea.

>>40957848
What if you fast while being constantly in ketosis?

>>40958440
You're kind of answering your own question. Can you be more specific as to what details you're looking for?

>>40958072
Ive always thought this, but then people on /fit/ scream THERE IS NO STARVATION MODE

im pretty sure my body burns like 500 less calories a day on a deficit that i would on a surplus.

>>40956206

No, it doesn't. It means running long distances if you're a retarded persistence hunter in sub-saharan Africa but most other groups evolved out of that shit thousands upon thousands of years ago.
Hunting in the north has long been about short, sharp bursts of intense activity and lots of walking, tactics, teamwork and technology. Hunting is more like HIIT than a marathon.

>>40958072
Because that's not where the money is. What are they going to do, tell people to fast instead of buying their supplements and protein shit? Science is only useful if you can make buisness, if not it's ignored and if it goes against buisness it's shunned.

>>40959350
Yeah I ate ~800 calories/day for a few weeks and barely lost any weight.

>>40959350
That's because any old faggot can believe in anything and call it "starvation mode"... and then the shitty ones are easily debunked.

My advice if you're interested in not getting yanked around by /fit/ and various meme industries is to drop the meme terminology and just learn what we know so far - and I mean KNOW and can SHOW - and then you'll have that instead.

The thing is? You can absolutely work through a metabolic slowdown. But that's like pushing your gas-powered lawnmower by force while it's in reverse. Why the fuck would you do that?

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>>40948143
Fasting is a shortcut to reduce total calories and end the sugar roller coaster of a shitty diet and no cardio memers

Sumos use it to get fat. Search for sumo diet on YouTube

It bumps your test temporarily, hence the muscle retention meme.the lack of sugars also dehydrates you, to further down the fat burning meme

You finally realize it makes you weak, it promotes insulin resistance, eye, adrenal, and kidney damage.

Just train and eat for performance, and HIIT the fat FOR 2-3 MONTHS for long lasting effects

>>40959350
First of all, don't call it starvation mode. That just perpetuates the ignorance.

Secondly, there is strong backlash against the idea because:
1) people use it excuse all sorts of shit,
2) ignoring it doesn't hurt gains, just "intangibles" like energy levels, mental sharpness, comfort, and fat loss,
3) most people don't actually do proper research in order to fully understand the mechanisms at play and the reasons to train in one manner vs another, and
3) fitness culture is prone to culture wars and tied up in personal identity just like any other sphere of human endeavour, so people get really, REALLY atagonistic / defensive about this shit.

>>40948173
"No"

>>40956411

You just changed my life. This is the perfect diet for me because I hate having to choose what I eat. I'll just eat nothing. Why did I never think of this.

>>40948276
This is sadly true. Last time I was arguing with someone here the guy posted a study from pubmed that totally contradicted his point, he didn't even read it

>>40959426
>this much wrong in one post
You realize fasting isn't just one thing? A sensible IF schedule would avoid most of the undesirable outcomes you listed (the ones that weren't just made up, anyway).

But if you can point to solid research that says otherwise, I'm always looking to learn.

>>40959426
>it makes you weak, it promotes insulin resistance, eye, adrenal, and kidney damage

no, you're thinking of diabetes

>>40959350
Starvation mode IS a myth, and the Two Compartment Problem video debunks it at 21:16.

help. i'm on hour 66 of a fast.

>woke up nauseous and lightheaded, sort of like a hangover
>drank salt water and coffee
>just puked
>immediately felt better after puking

should i stop the fast?

>>40959698
>drank salt water and coffee
Were you trying to puke? What the fuck were you thinking?

>>40959698
Bodyfat%? Are you staying hydrated?

Try taking electrolyte tablets.

>>40959705
salt water is necessary for electrolytes

i haven't had any problems with coffee the last two days

>>40959698
It could be keto flu, it could be gut flora having a tantrum (a lot of people on candida forums worry about this. It's not necessarily candida but your gut flira can make you feel particularly shit), it could be you need to drink more.

>>40959714
dunno. high enough to be able to lose a few kilos of fat pretty easily, i think.

yeah, but i probably should have drank some more water upon waking

>>40959705
If he's asking us about a 66 hour fast he didn't consult with a doctor before starting it and probably is focused on losing fat quickly rather than general health.

Salt helps you retain water on a prolonged fast and some people recommend coffee to deal with hunger pangs if you're new to fasting.

It may be that anon just overdid it and felt sick (trying not to make any snap judgement about their self control). Personally I know how you feel as salt water and coffee makes me retch just thinking about it, and I'm not even on a fast.

>>40949424
I thought that anything more complex than water that has to be processed by the liver stopped the process, but I'm not really sure, made sense to me though.

>>40959698
>nauseous, lightheaded
I found my body becomes much more sensitive to things like caffeine when I'm on a fast (I don't usually go over 24 hours and never yet over 48 hours). I remember I broke my first 48 our fast with a handful of blueberries and the experience was basically a pleasant mindfuck, a whole new level of appreciation and mindfulness of what eating and drinking does to my body.

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Been fasting for two days with a multivatim, zinc, and d3 supplements by my fingers are all getting infections and look really bad. What am I deficient in?

>>40959745
>>40959773
ok i'll try sticking to salt and water for a while

>>40959762
As I understand it anything under 500 calories a day and you still get most of the benefits.

>>40959778
Depends. Go see a doc for that stuff, doesn't seem to be fasting related.

>>40948622
same here. I dont care about the memeing, Ive been leaner than ever before while still maintaining most of my muscles.
19:5 fasting: eating, I eat carbs an hour before working out and a big meal after. On non-lifting days I eat less carbs but still do.

Other benefits: save a lot of time not preparing, buying and eating food as well as cleaning up.
My meals are healthier. I eat once or twice so I have time to make good meals.
More energy and clear-headed. Even if you dont buy into it, skipping breakfast has been a godsend.

Try it out for yourselves, see how you respond to it. That fasting breaks down muscle after 20h of not eating is ludicrous

>>40959773
I haven't tried fasting yet but just avoiding for example any fat for a few weeks makes you really sensitive to anything cooked with even a little bit of oil or cream and it tastes incredible. Same with cutting sugar.

I think I'll try fasting but I'm already near skeleton level. 24 hours shouldn't do any harm though.

>>40959815
>skeleton level
Please don't fast. It's not a good idea in your situation.

>tastes incredible
I agree. A reasonable amount of withholding can make certain things very satisfying.

It can go both ways though, like how some long time vegetarians who give in and have a beefsteak sandwich get really nauseous during and after because their body hasn't eaten meat in years. A lot of vegans use this for "see! told you it was bad for you!" but really it's just a matter of a body not being used to something anymore causing a really strong reaction that can go either way. Hell, during actual life and death starvation you can reach a point where you can only recover by ingesting very controlled small amounts of calories at a time, because eating a large meal like - well, like we imagine someone who is starving might want to eat - they'll actually sick it all up, losing water and electrolytes and die FASTER.

>>40948173
This. Retards who have never been sub-10% should not reply.

>>40959892
You shouldn't be fasting if you're 10% bodyfat you fucking retard. Of course if you have more lean mass you're going to use it for energy. Use some fucking common sense people...

>>40959598
>>40959603
My own experience, after getting memed by easily 10 different books

Performance gone
Cardio horrible, HIIT = suicide
Libido and mood, questionable to say the least

You are just emulating a post cardio effect, toasting your adrenals. It works for the photoshoot, but it is not a sustainable healthy lifestyle

The problem is once you adapt, going back is horrible, hence the cult. Your BMR goes down, and you end getting fat by eating a cookie. Also, surprise, you can get fatty liver by burning too much fat. It ends promoting a binge disorder

Its funny how fastfags need to justify themselves showing how awesome and revolutionary their diet is, the same way as crossfitters, nolactose, nogluten, nograins, vegans, apple buyers.... the list goes on and on

Its longterm bad for you. Caveman lived for 30 years. True successful fasters use roids to maintain the mass

>>40960042
I'm only a proponent for fasting to lose weight. Once I get down to goal body I'll probably fast once a week or once a month for the autophagy gains. I don't really think IF is smart for gaining mass.

>>40960065
Sounds good for me
fasting is a miracle shortcut to kickstart a caloric restriction diet or get your ass into an active lifestyle, by reducing insuling

But it is an undeniable body stress state that is longterm bad

>>40960042
>Its longterm bad for you. Caveman lived for 30 years.

Why you still spout memes? Fasting including calorie restriction only increases longevity in all subjects as proved by numerous animal studies.

No comment on the performance, cardio endurance or libido and mood. I do my cardio and workout 2-3 hours after my last meal of the day and fast over 18 hours daily. I have not noticed any difference in my endurance.

>>40960086
Do you mind sharing your age? A 20yo liver and adrenals is not the same as a 35yo

>animals and longevity
what was the activity levels of those animals?
I think you are missing my point: performance and training
of course a caged rat will live longer on a caloric restriction than the fat one

But we train the carbs here
breakfast is the moment ypur insulin ssnsitivity is higher
>oh no, insulin is bad
Insulin brings the glucose to the muscle, apart from storing fat
if you train those morning cals, you get the most muscle possible, while you can also HITT the fat

Avoiding your insulin morning rush and going ham during the night minimizes effective insulin. Less fat and less muscle and bad energy and cardio. You get leaner and weaker.

I know its hard to swallow, but training the cals (including your heart) gives you your top gains

Go read Advanced Sports Nutrition

>>40960042
>>40960086
>>40960152
You seem like a really good, dedicated, smart guy. But in this case you're wrong, and because I respect you I want you to figure that out.

>Your BMR goes down, and you end getting fat by eating a cookie.
Please listen to >>40956411 and look up the Two Compartment Problem. Fasting actually avoids BMR reduction compared to simple caloric restriction without fasting, and the video specifically debunks your idea that fasting lowers BMR.

>Caveman lived for 30 years
https://paleoleap.com/why-cavemen-didnt-die-young/

You just traded one set of memes for another. No big deal, if what you're doing works for you keep on doing it but you gotta accept that maybe some of your beliefs about fasting weren't based on reality.

>>40960226
Ugh, why did you link to paleoshit to explain something as simple as average lifespan being misleading? There are so many better sources for that.

Long story short, average life span back then is low because of scary high infant mortality rates; the ones that lived to puberty tended to live to 60 or 70. Average all those infants who died at < 1 year old and the people who make it to 60-70? It's an awfully small number that makes it seem like prehistoric man hit 25 and keeled over.

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>>40960226
thank you for the kind words

I am on mobile but will definitely check out that Two Compartment Problem video. thank you

>paleoleap.com
I am not buying that. We are not hunters that need to hunt/train for hours to get our food. Also we are sitting in front of a computer for tons of hours, and have to deal with emotional stress on a daily basis (boss/gf/traffic)
We don't get the same amount of sun
The air we breath is shit...
We can't reduce longevity to a TIMED caloric deficit on circadian rhythms, or eating a low insulin raw diet... the activity levels are key

I have paleoed during 3-4 months... it feels amazing when you start! i ended up feeling restricted by my diet, and never feeling full. But why? because i train 6 days a week

that is the key of my argument: i am talking performance, training, and feeling great. Not starving for <10%bf and eating like a hospital patient (which i did)

i realized i should stop reading/watching bodybuilder fraud youtubers, and start reading real sports and pro books... it is a whole different world. Books that advice you to eat white bread after training for rapid absortion... what the fuck... i thought white bread was hitler

I understand and respect the fasting community (I have fasted for a year, I have trained fasted at 7am for months... even HIIT fasted), and I totally enjoyed the benefits... but the long term outcome is questionable. You get lean, but your lifts stall bad, and the mood...
it is a bodybuilder/model tool

another great and eye opening book

>>40960283
Sorry man, it had nice pictures and a well-formulated conclusion. Also I'm fucking lazy and tired and will go to bed now.

>>40959698

Kek, I did a 29 day fast once, you know nothing kiddo.

At the last weak I was constantly writing down what I want to eat after the fast was over, I was dreamin about food every night.

My mental state was constantly ping ponging between suicidal depression and manic euphoria

>>40960377
when i was doing low carb, i knew i was going too overkill when i dreamed about eating food

it was my literal red flag

>>40960377
I don't think you should be proud os sticking to a terrible decision that made you feel like shit.

>>40960369
See >>40960283 and >>40960371. I was not pushing paleo (not a fan myself), just trying to explain exactly why cavemen didn't tend to just live to 30 and die like people think.

You've given my a lot to think about with regards to your personal experience with fasting and HIIT, etc. Will definitely check out that book.

As far as your emphasis on activity, I am 100% with you on that basic fact. The human body was made to move, when we stop moving we shut down and die.

Keep researching things scientifically for yourself, keep a high standard for sources and personally understanding what you read, and always work to debunk "fitness" myths. Godspeed and have a great life. Here's hoping I can do the same.

>>40960392

Why ? It was an experiment for myself, I wanted to know how long I could go on without eating and not go insane.

>>40960383

I had literally two pages of stuff I wanted to cook and eat when I finished the experiment.

Also went running and lifting, felt like vomiting when lifting heavy weights and got dizzy

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>>40960415
that sounds amazing
i have a friend who is a doctor, and he recognized me they have literally zero clue about the real effects of training in the body

same with nutritionists
all they know is the average... and the infamous 'do 1 hour of exercise a day'

>exercise
what is that

this is is one of the best, by far

>>40959995
Fasting is a meme.

>>40960484

>

t. somebody who posted earlier in this thread but already forgot about it because of his alzheimers

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>>40948403
>that strange beast that keeps trying to crush you in intervals of 5 every other day

Toppest of keks

>>40960494
Nope. Fasting is literally pointless.

>>40960473
Doctors are just people. There are dumb ones, evil ones, brilliant ones and heroic ones.

They are trained in saving your life when you are injured or infected. As far as being healthy in general they inherited that almost as a side effect of coming into existence.

Same with "nutritionists" - just a job title, not accompanied by any kind of guarantee of meaningful certification or accreditation in any country that I know of. In my country, dietitians are better in that they are a protected certification like doctor, nurse, or pharmacist. They can only call themselves a dietitian after gaining a university degree in foods and nutrition from an accredited university program and hundreds of hours of supervised, hands-on training, and are subject to ethic laws and regular competence reviews to ensure they are up to date - like all regulated health professionals. It's kind of odd in a way that it's so much easier to get a professional thrown in jail because of the strictness of the ethics code then some quack nutritionist, but there it is.

>>40960528
I bet you already fast for multiple hours each day.

>>40960544
Nah man, he eats 24/7. Fasting is a meme for chumps.

>>40960673
His (your) brain is fasting 24/7. It turns everything he (you) thinks into memes.

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>>40960678
>this is his idea of cleverness

>>40949347
>body burns muscle so there is less body to maintain, therefore less food is needed
seems prrfectly reasonable to me

Compared to body burns fat because its literally its chief function to be a source of store fuel, therefore when food makes itself available through serendipity or seeking the body has the power AND the energy to obtain it that makes absolutely no sense. And in fact that is what happens.

>>40960717
Also, why not just use fat first before going for muscle? How does losing the muscle upfront save you any suffering?

>>40960763
Losing the muscle now saves the body the stress of losing it later, with the added benefit that if you need energy at some point in the future but still aren't eating you have the fat still.

>>40960773
That literally doesn't make sense, you dumb fuck. Just read what you wrote and think about it, I'm out.

>>40960763
That's my point.

I think the reason most of /fit/ thinks they've lost more muscles than they have during a fast is because the body breaks fat down into ketones, ketones activate epigenetic markers for ketones to be preferred fuel for cells making the energy uptake more efficient, this process takes time so depending on your carb/fat ratio it can take weeks between breaking down fat and your functional energy rebounding so that you can actually use your muscles like you used to on carbs.

>>40960773
>if you need energy at some point
Toooo use those nonexistant muscles? -2/10

>>40960773
>stress is bad, so the sooner the better
>today it's raining but I'll save it for a rainy day
lol you need to check your math there bro

>>40956411
this is stupid.
"You imagine that since you are filing up the fridge with less glucose, it will eventually empty. However, this does not happen. Why? Because, as you start putting less food in the fridge, your body senses that and starts to get antsy. So, it starts to make you hungry and want to eat more. If you don’t fill it up, it will decrease your metabolism so that it is burning less energy.You imagine that since you are filing up the fridge with less glucose, it will eventually empty. However, this does not happen. Why? Because, as you start putting less food in the fridge, your body senses that and starts to get antsy. So, it starts to make you hungry and want to eat more. If you don’t fill it up, it will decrease your metabolism so that it is burning less energy."

So if I , and im all with this explanation, buy 2000 cals worth of food and only need 1900. 100 will go down in the basement.
But if I buy 1500 cals and eat them but I still need 2000 my metaolism just slows down? and my body "senses" this ?
im sorry but i call out bs.
What if you do an extra amount of sport after you ate 1500 cals.
lets say you burn 500 extra cals with sport that day. now we are at 2500 cals needed. does your metabolism slow down afterwards? shouldnt your body have an faster metabolism when you do sport? if it didnt take the cals from the food you ate, where did you get the power from to do sport? did the energy magically appear?

what if you take it ad absurdum and only eat 1000 cals and do sport on top? will your bodys metabolism slow down to below 1000 ? yet still have enegry to do sport?

too many questions that cannot be answered.

The explantion makes sens only as an boarder or wider asnwer to the cals in cals out. otherwise its shit

>>40960831
So what you're saying is that you didn't understand what was said, so you made it up instead? I don't understand.

What do you think "metabolism" means? Because the way you're using it kind of makes it seem like you are kinda vague on that front.

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>>40955308
>>40955394
>not doing micro-fast cycles
>go ten minutes without food then eat
>do this 90 times throughout the day
>get shredded

>>40960864
Dude, he's incredulous that the body can "sense" running out of glycgen. How does he think hunger happens? There's no curing that kind of stupid.

>>40960885
What I mean to say is, how does he think hunger happens if the body for some reason cannot sense itself?

>>40960831
>So if I , and im all with this explanation, buy 2000 cals worth of food and only need 1900. 100 will go down in the basement.
Depends if it's carbs it gets stored as glycogen in the liver first. If that happens regularly and your liver can't store more glycogen you will accumulate fat through lipogenesis.

>But if I buy 1500 cals and eat them but I still need 2000 my metaolism just slows down?
No your body will use any stored glycogen first. If that happens continuously without "refilling" you will start burning fat. #

Now the problem you misunderstood. IF your insulin levels are too high your body can't access the fat so what does it do? No glycogen and no accesible fat. It slows down your metabolism to prevent starvation even if the person is obese. Which is the main problem with obesity.

>>40960864
no I would never make something up when im not understanding something. I am pretty confindet to say I understood what I read.

I think metabolism means all chemical process that happens in your body, to ensure that your body is stable.

What I did is something pretty easy, I question things. Explain it to me if you are smarter . I enjoy being educated.

However, until now noone answered my questions. you can explain all the qesution with cals in cals out. even if you take away that part that I quoted from the text.

As I said, I think its a broader and wider explanation of cals in cals out.

If you need more energy than you eat you get them from reservs.

>>40948173

>if your body thinks

Do you know how I know you're ducking stupid?

>>40948164

It depends on whether you use your muscles or not. If you don't, your body will burn muscle as well. The body adapts to situation. If you need your muscle to get food, it's not going to fuck you over by taking it away from you if you have fat to burn.

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>>40948173
American education at work again, I see.

>>40960831
Your BMR is what specifically falls and you end up having to do more active exercise with shittier energy all day long just to meet your old calorie expenditure. The guy explains it pretty badly but it's correct.

The idea isn't to avoid reducing calories per day (TDEE), but that you get better fat-loss results by reducing those calories by creating controlled fasting periods - essentially to reduce your TDEE by reducing the FREQUENCY of caloric intake rather than calories per meal only (you still need to eat healthy food, and may need to eat smaller meals if you really overate by that much before, obviously).

>>40960958
But how do you not need muscles to get food? There was no time when starving people were lying around with 30% bf waiting for a potato to grow in front of their mouth a a rabbit to die in arms reach.

>>40960986

Again, it depends if you're using your muscles actively. If you're just sitting around and starving then, yeah, you'll start burning muscle for energy.

>>40960996
Well yeah but this is /fit/, people are mainly talking about fasting and still exercising. I guess my bad since I didn't include people who just fast without any activity. That would indeed be bad for your muscles. But then again those people probably don't have a lot of muscle mass to burn in the first place so it would still mainly be energy from fat.

>>40960936
>But if I buy 1500 cals and eat them but I still need 2000 my metaolism just slows down?
No, your Base Metabolic Rate (BMR - calories your body uses when you are not working out, energy provided to brain, etc; warmth, comfort, clear mind, "energy level") falls. And stays down there long-term, according to studies.

>and my body "senses" this?
Your body pays out energy according to what is easily available. Fat people are generally sluggish and not high energy despite having all that energy for that reason. You can force your TDEE higher than calories in with brute force, sure, but why would you do this when the mechanism is built in to switch to fat burning mode, and doesn't suffer the reduction of BMR?

>does your metabolism slow down afterwards?
No, and neither does your BMR. Your calorie deficit has increased, but your calorie intake of 1500 is the same. This is why increasing calorie expenditure (exercise) is useful for long term fat loss.

>shouldnt your body have an faster metabolism when you do sport?
Your body spends more calories when you do physical sport than when you rest, sure; your BMR does not apply here by definition.

(continued)

I assume anybody arguing starvation or burning muscle is a troll, because the only other alternative is that people unironically believe muscle will be burned preferentially over fat.

Thats sub 100 IQ shit.

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>>40957573
>made for you

>tfw somebody to wanted to help us skellies out

I'm gonna make it brahs

(continued from >>40961129 in response to >>40960831)
>if it didnt take the cals from the food you ate, where did you get the power from to do sport? did the energy magically appear?
Remember, our brains don't just say "ok body today spend 2500 calories"; it pays out the energy based on the various conditions of the body and the rest we must force with effort, up to a limit where your body will just quit and you will not be able to perform. Otherwise fat people could just "work like crazy" and lose fat in a day as long as they keep moving. Of course if you can force yourself to spend more calories than you eat, it must come from somewhere; but to intentionally lower your base energy level and then try and power through your body's purposeful limiting signals with willpower is just stupid, and will not work if the various mechanisms of switching between the two compartments (glucose metabolism and fatty acid oxidation) are not satisfied.

>what if you take it ad absurdum and only eat 1000 cals and do sport on top? will your bodys metabolism slow down to below 1000 ?
Two Compartment Problem of course does not refute Conservation of Energy (basic Physics). It doesn't claim to at any point. Your BMR will drop as you restrict your caloric intake per meal, how far this will go is not tested yet; there is probably some floor value where you will be spending basically enough energy to live and that's it.

>yet still have enegry to do sport?
That's the point, at some point you won't have the energy to do sport at all, much less enough energy to burn the fat at the most efficient rate.

>The explantion makes sens only as an boarder or wider asnwer to the cals in cals out.
Of course it does. It builds on the previous, flawed model and replaces it. That's how science works, just like how the Rutherford–Bohr atomic model was replaced long ago by the Valence Shell atomic model, but the latter is just a refinement of the former that included important new information.

>>40960905
I am sorry if you think thats what I meant.
Ofc I would never argue that the body does want to eat, feels hungry etc. but what I want to argue was that your body can sense the cals in it.
I mean - make the test.

drink 100 ml olive oil ( ca. 650 cals)
eat 600 grams of broccoli (ca 200 cals)

after what meal you still will be hungry?

And what I am trying to say is that hunger is not only infulenced by "running out of glycogen" but more importantly what you eat and whats in it. and that it doesnt matter how many cals are in it.

>>40960996
Look up ketosis. The body specifically loses as little muscle as it can, significantly less than normal. This is easily confirmed by analyzing urine and seeing how much urea is there (protein from muscles used up to create energy metabolize to urea).

>>40961253
Do you happen to have studies at hand for the first point? The "long-term lower BMR" one? As in of course it's true but how much lower and how long term. If you don't immediately have them I'll search for it myself no worries.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-alcoholic_fatty_liver_disease?wprov=sfla1

>>40961129
>>40961253
thanks for these good answers, thats what I wanted.

>>40961278
Okay, so you don't know some basic stuff. Your body throttles from glucose metabolism to fatty acid metabolism; it doesn't do both fully at once. The switch is controlled among other things by the Randle cycle and insulin response.

First your body uses the glucose already in your blood stream; as glucose levels fall, you get hunger pangs and your body starts converting glycogen in your liver into glucose, and uses that. Once you run out of glycogen (most people have about a day's worth), then the body switches to ketosis, which oxidized fatty acids for energy.

You're right that SATIATION signals are sent for non-glucose reasons. HUNGER signals are different; satiation, physiologically speaking, is not just the lack of hunger. This is why you feel hungry again soon after some meals; because your body still needs more, but the satiation signals were effective.

>>40961151
That's neo-/fit/, pal. This place has been dead since 2014.

>>40961390
ok, ty for the information. I going to read into the randle cycle.

>>40961278
>>40961344
>>40961356
Lol I like you, but you are kind of annoying to spoonfeed this info to. Can you imagine if the only way people could learn is if I donate 1+ hour of my time to help them out for no reason? In future you need to learn to research these things so you can help yourself and not at the mercy of assholes like me and other kind of assholes who know nothing but will lie to you. Good that you are committed to learning for yourself, don't mind me I'm just tired as fuck at this point.

>Do you happen to have studies at hand for the first point?
There are citations in the youtube lecture video that came from the article, as well as a lot of useful information that did not make it into the admittedly short article. Second result for me on youtube.

Check out the various processes named in >>40956832 to understand them; it's not my post but it has some things that even I don't know (it's on my list to research this weekend). It's a glorious feeling to know on a basic mechanical level how human metabolism works and to be able to see a dumb post on fit and say "No, that's fucking bullshit, and here's exactly why."

>>40961443
Honestly just read the thread dude, most of what I told you was already said multiple times here by multiple people.

ACTUAL fasting is by far the best cutting method.

Do one or two 48 hour fasts a week and you will be shredded in 4-5 weeks.

>b-b-b-but muh gains

https://www.reddit.com/r/leangains/comments/356gyl/results_with_pics_of_my_accelerated_lean_gains_cut/

>>40948748
>16/8

HAHAHAHAHA that's not a fast

You fucking pussies need to stop calling your normal eating habits fasts. I"F" is for pussies. You're a pussy.

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>you restrain food
>you train fasted
>your body stores more fat when you resume your intake
>repeat the cycle
enjoy your sumo diet and your survival metabolism

>>40961614
or

>binge eat right before a fast
>fast for 2-3 days
>come out at a huge deficit

Enjoy always being fat as fuck eating chicken and rice while I eat cheat meals every time I eat and get shredded.

>>40961253
>That's how science works, just like how the Rutherford–Bohr atomic model was replaced long ago by the Valence Shell atomic model, but the latter is just a refinement of the former that included important new information.
I like your posts, I just want to point something out.

The Valence model included new features that were hypothesized in response to new experimental evidence that appeared since Rutherford-Bohr was adopted. Two Compartment Theory includes new features compared to Calories In, Calories Out (CICO); but these "new" features aren't really new - they were experimentally validated in the 1950s, in one case as far back as 1915!

This is because CICO wasn't so much a scientific model, as much as it was just the idea that everyone - laypeople AND MDs alike - had that was easy to remember and repeat, and made a basic sort of sense. But nutrition industry, fitness industry, amateur/school sports teams, medical doctors that don't know any more about nutrition than average person, say a thing and their voice is considered god.

See how hard people argued against the Two Compartment model in this very thread? They're not morons, most of them probably. In some places, CICO is reinforced in the same way that eventually people thought the made up parable of George Washington and the Cherry Tree was a real fucking story about his life and taught it in preschool history classes.

It just makes me fucking mad sometimes.

>>40961577
It actually is, you mong. Stop making fitness terminology your personal social jihad where you attack people to feel good about yourself.

Learn what words mean or get the fuck out.

>>40961577
>being under 18

>>40961638
Every binge is getting you fatter
and when you resume....

Its a matter of survival
ths body adapts and prepares for the next hit
if calorie count is the keym then why the timing? Insulin resistance to get a little less fat tissue

Its a meme for fatsos

>>40961667
Why would you binge? lol fucking retarded.

>>40961663
>>40961665
>muh peeaychdeeeeez call it a fast because they also don't have enough self-discipline to just not eat for more than a day

enjoy your no shred gainz

IF isn't fasting. An 8 hour daily eating window isn't a fucking fast no matter how much you want to believe it is.

>>40961690
Because you simply can. I regularly eat until I want to throw up, fast for 2-3 days, repeat this twice a week, and see rapid progress.

>>40961690
You are bingeing every single night by timing your calories

Do you think your body prefers steady energy intake or one big meal to then sleep? You don't feel the bloat because you are sleeping

This meme needs to end

>>40961699
You made no argument why the word "fast" shouldn't mean what it does.
>>40961715
That's unhealthy for reasons not really related to fasting lol.
>>40961722
No? You just eat a normal meal size. If you really think your body prefers steady energy intake over the human body's natural lump sum intake, hook yourself up to a perpetual IV bag and get ready for your "leet gainz".

>>40961699
>this nigger doesn't know where the word breakfast comes from

>>40961722

What meme? You've provided no science beyond your own speculation.

Why is a steady intake better than getting it all in one go? Do you know? Do you have an explanation or is it just an assumption?

>>40961699

Autophagy peaks up after 16 hours. As long as you're going at least that it's literally a fast.

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>>40961774
I can't handle your logic. Are you running on ketones or caffeine now?


>>40961801
>food gives energy for 3-5 hours
>this guy asks for explanation

am I getting baited here?

>>40961774
>That's unhealthy for reasons not really related to fasting lol.

Why? I can eat whatever I want when I allow myself to eat. I have mental clarity gains after the 36 hour mark while burning tons of calories. You IFtards need to break free of your religion and try an actual fast.

>>40961828
>>food gives energy for 3-5 hours

>>40961828

>food gives energy for 3-5 hours

And what exactly does that have to do with anything?
The time period for foods energy creation does not mean that that is specifically how often you should eat. Why would it? There are many other factors at work here.

Just a related study I came accross while searching for stuff.
>ENDURANCE TRAINING IN FASTING CONDITIONS: BIOLOGICAL ADAPTATIONS AND BODY WEIGHT MANAGEMENT
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26667687
>at low intensities of endurance-based exercises, adipose tissue lipolysis and muscle fat oxidation rate seem to be higher in fasting than in fed state. On the other hand, glucose metabolism is adapted in order to save glycogen stores, possibly through gluconeogenesis activation. Finally, it has been observed that protein degradation is mainly downregulated.
>Individuals with a low fit could take advantage of a fasting state exercise programme at low intensity that would favour the use of fats as an energy source

>>40961828
The "energy" from food lasts until you use it up or it gets converted into fat. Hunger pangs are triggered for reasons unrelated to being "out of energy".

If you're interested in how the body actually works, look up Hypercapnia. You see, the shitty feeling you have when you're drowning or asphyxiating isn't triggered by lack of oxygen, but by a buildup of carbon dioxide in the blood and lungs.

If you breathe in air with not enough oxygen but can still breath out your CO2, you don't get this suffocating feeling; you just get light headed and giddy, and eventually fade out.

>>40961863
You are eating your body while fasting, lad
its ok if fatso, but you need an steady supply of energy to maintain health

Fasting destroys your true performance potential

Its a fatso fad diet

>>40961840
I already said that the unhealthiness wasn't related to the fasting at all, but I guess you don't listen or you wouldn't be defending fasting to me lol.

>>40961886
You can adapt and tolerate an starvation state, but it is not the best way to live, and ultimately fucks you up
see non alcoholic fatty liver

>>40961892
Oi look at this guy, lads. He's at 0% body fat, of course he doesn't want to burn his hard-earned muscles.

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>>40948173
Only if you are doing cardio and your body needs energy straight into the muscle quickly. Otherwise your body will start burning fat heavily and preserve muscle.

Idiot.

>>40961892
>I don't have enough self-discipline to do a fast

Funny how everyone on this board knows that calorie restriction is the only way to lose weight but somehow fasting, the best method of calorie restriction, is unhealthy.

>>40961908
Why is it unhealthy?

>>40961929
Starvation actually has a meaning, you know. It doesn't just mean "I feel hungry".

Additionally, non-alchoholic fatty liver develops when the body creates too much fat or cannot metabolize fat fast enough. How do you think fasting causes this, and where are you getting your information?

Whatever the case, even memers are better citizens than people that don't care about their health

>>40961931
I can't follow
>>40961934
Fasting is calorie timing

>>40961959
all that fat burning goes through the liver
source: ketofags

>>40961934
There are health risks associated with eating garbage other than getting fat. If you're eating healthful food until you want to throw up every three days, that would be better but extremely weird if you ask me.

>>40961988
>If you're eating healthful food until you want to throw up every three days, that would be better but extremely weird if you ask me.

Some days I eat 4-5 burgers from McDonald's, other days I'll eat a pizza with other shit, and on other days I'll have lots of vegetables with meat.

Why is it extremely weird? I feel calm and clear while fasted and I can eat whatever the fuck I want when I eat. This is my cutting diet by the way.

>>40961980
Ketogenic diets are used to TREAT Non-Alchoholic Fatty Liver Disease, moron.

>>40962012
Not him but if you actually thing stuffing yourself with fast food is not extremely bad you must be delusional.

>>40962035
You sound jealous. Enjoy being hungry 24/7 on your awful chicken and rice diet.

>>40962040
>iffym fag
kill yourself

>>40962033
That is for fatsos
you can get nafl while slim
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-alcoholic_fatty_liver_disease?wprov=sfla1

i think if you fast for 2-3 days after each meal, it's not gonna be THAT bad if the meal is composed of junk.

>>40962040
Your are hungry 24/7 if you are insulin resistant
exactly why you enjoy the fasts

Train your carbs

>>40962047
>he thinks I count macros

nice try

Last night I ate a Big Mac, a Spicy Chicken Sandwich, 10 Chicken Nuggets, a cheeseburger happy meal, two orders of fries, and another burger that I think is only available here in China. After that I ate 4 ice cream cones.

>>40962040
>lol u jealous
I enjoy my healthy high carb diet thanks. You enjoy your heart disease in 10 years.

>>40962069
Its funny someone waa denying the binge disorder earlier

>>40962069
you're full of shit nutritional advice

>>40962048
Ketogenic diets restrict carbs in order to induce a more or less constant state of controlled ketolysis - the same state entered when burning fat on a fast.

You're saying ketolysis causes the thing it's actually used to cure.

>>40962075
>high carb
>healthy
Off topic, but wew lad.

>>40962081
What's even funnier is that I'm losing fat extremely quickly while doing this.

>>40962075
>>40962085
So fucking jelly

I'll end my 48 fast tomorrow night with 2 dragon fruits and a bowl of ramen. Friday night is sushi night with my bombshell 9/10 Chinese girlfriend.

Can't wait for that Friday night binge.

>>40962087
No, I am not
an overkill calorie restriction or weight loss creates nafld

Read the wikipedia article

Keto is good for weight loss if obesity is the reason behind nafld

But there are plenty of other reasons
anorexics get nafld too

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>>40962103
>So fucking jelly

>>40962103
Because bingeing, saturated fats and that eating window promotes insulin resistance

that shit ends in type II diabetes
I am not memeing here, because I did your roitine for years and felt like superman

Train the fucking carbs guys

>>40962103
>9/10
that point is for the dick?

>>40962128
How was your chicken, rice, and broccoli yesterday? I bet it was awful lmao

It must suck not being able to cheat without completely fucking up your weekly calorie count.

>>40962135
You regularly did 2-3 day fasts? I have a hard time believing that...

>>40962135
>saturated fat promotes insulin resistance
>eating once every few days promotes insulin resistance
>suggests eating more carbs

Stop.

>>40962099
You realise that the healthiest people on earth eat almost vegan right? You know meat and dairy have a generally bad effect on health right? That you can live without meat but not without carbs. Carbs doesn't mean sugar and processed shit but plant foods, starches and whole grain.

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>>40962048
>links wiki article
>check Causes section
Fasting isn't on there, mate. Ketolysis neither.

Maybe you need to read the article.

>>40962158
>you can't live without carbs

Are you fucking stupid?

>>40962163
Read management

>>40961892

You keep saying that but you haven't backed it up at all.

What is inherently wrong with the body eating itself during a fast? If it's using fat stores what is the problem? That's exactly what they're there for past a certain point.

>you need a steady supply of energy to maintain health

According to who? Prove it.

>>40962173
I did. Fasting and ketolysis still don't cause NAFLD.

>>40962156
Carb consumption is what balances insulin production and sensitivity

Saturated fats is the main reason of type 2 diabetes, not carbs

You are memed beyond believe

TRAIN THE CARBS

>>40962168
What are you going to do, eat only meat and take a hundred supplements for vitamins and other nutrients?

Even a ketogenic diet isn't free of carbs you idiot.

>>40962151
Not sure what you're asking

>>40962191
What? Don't people reverse their type 2 diabetes on keto diets full of saturated fat?

>>40962195
name one (1) essential micronutrient that cannot be obtained from meat/fish/eggs

hint: fibre is not essential

>>40962198
It was a joke about your gf being a trap, hence the 9/10

>>40962191
Carb consumption triggers insulin production, which contributes to insulin sensitivity.

Where are you getting your information?

>>40962204
that's the meme to lose weight
the insulin borked system is produced by sat fats and sedentary lifestyle

>>40962223
that's exactly what I said

>>40962215
I actually haven't had sex with her yet so she could be haha

I'm hoping to close the deal Friday night after sushi.

>used to do 6 meals a day
>hungry all the time
>never satisfied with these tiny ass meals
>no strength gains from feeling tired constantly digesting minimeals
>found blake_201 on instagram (kek)
>gave his one meal a day method a shot
>reached 1pl8OHP last week when I was stuck at 40kg for like 6 months
>one year mark on one meal a day

No more energy swing, so much more time to do other stuff during the day, insane 4k kcal meal every night
Just give it a try and enjoy

>>40962206
>fiber is not essential
Not essential but if you're saying it doesn't matter you're going against literally all of science: Actually I don't feel like shitting on you here, I'd rather spend my time on searing studies about this topic of fasting. Take it as your "win" and be happy and type saturated fat health in youtube.

For the keto lovers

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/msj.20118/abstract;jsessionid=5B871C1D2BAB839B97ECD78AACC4F73D.f04t04

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>>40962191
You could not possibly be more wrong. You want to get me fucking started?

>>40962272
See
>>40962268

>>40962235
No, you said that saturated fats were the main contributor to type 2 diabetes, and not carbs at all.

It's a lie, and you got called out on it. Have the self respect to gracefully retreat into awkward silence.

>>40962264
Welcome to the one meal a day master race

When you want to cut then do one or two 48 hour fasts a week and enjoy your ez-mode cut.

>>40962290
Are you retarded?

See
>>40962223
>>40962191
Insulin sensitivity is good

>>40962264
Nice. I've done OMAD for a while, it's nice. Gonna go back to it once I've lost a bit of fat.

>>40956411
CICO doesn't work because 99% of people don't accurately track their calories and have no self control.

>>40962306
the confusion comes from the fact that you said 'sensitivity' but meant 'resistance'

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>>40962268
>no one ever told him the difference between ketolysis and ketoacidosis

>>40962321
Not at all
I mean sensitivity
carbs and exercise are the key for insulin balance

>>40962290
How come there are virtually no vegetarians/vegans who got type 2 diabetes from their diet? Google lipotoxicity. Saturated fats and shit carbs can both cause diabetes.

>>40962335
oh ok. you're wrong.

>>40962318
Oh? And all those rigorous studies with participants on controlled diets were faked?

>>40962294
I actually plan to go for a 48h fast now 24h fast are so easy, I'm so gonna enjoy that 8k kcal fast breaker
Or I will puke, kekk

>>40949372
>Stop eating
>Performance goes down during the next workout
What do you want explained exactly? Also why are you trying to draw any conclsions from one bad workout?

>>40948143
if your androgens are high enough there's not a big problem with this.

Shitty carbs are full of sat fat

One more time, for the mentally challenged or ketone brains:

Insulin balance comes from carb consumption and exercise

Insulin resistance comes from sat fats and being fat

Insulin sensitivity comes from exercise, and carbs

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>>40959698
Just made it past the 3 day mark. Feeling good, bros.

>>40962280
Uhh its 6$ to read it lol....

>>40962386
>Insulin resistance comes from sat fats and being fat

so why did steve redgrave get diabetes? are you saying it wasn't all those carbs he was chugging down every day?

Insulin is not bad
it stores fat but also stores your muscles energy

>>40962363
based open-minded bro

You will see the truth soon enough and laugh at these IF losers.

>>40962388
Hell yeah man, keep it up. You're in autophagy mode, your body is cleaning up all the bullshit in your cells and rebuilding them. Soak it in brother, i'm on 24 hours, I'm going to try to make it a week. We should seriously have fasting motivation threads.

>>40962403
I dont know who is that guy
but that sounds like type I diabetes and not II

>>40962405
yes, but insulin resistance is bad because it makes it more likely that food will be stored as fat than as muscle

>>40962405
Yep, insulin is necessary. Just like any other hormone, though, when its off-balance it causes issues.

>>40962415
Fasters are insulin resistant when they eat at night

>>40962411
He's one of the most successful Olympic athletes in history, and it's type 2.

>>40962346
Vegetables aren't calorically dense enough to easily consume the amount you need to trigger the massive levels of insulin that typically lead to resistance.

As far as I know, not enough is currently known about lipotoxicity to intelligently say that it leads to t2 diabetesis, and it is certainly not the main risk factor as far as that goes.

Do you have any sources for your claims? I'm always interested in learning more.

>>40962428
Interesting
there are plenty of marathon runners high fatters and type II

The balance of musclem and insulin sensitivity is key

Also maby believe type II is a jew invention, and its totally reversible

A month ago tht demostrated on rats that their pancreas was regenerating itself

Diabetes research is a joke and a very lucrative business

I almost got caught by it

>>40962458
it is definitely reversible. my uncle has it and i've been trying to get him to start fasting but he just seems like he's accepted that it's incurable. really frustrating.

>>40962424
Source? You don't seem to know what insulin resistance is.

>>40962458
>Diabetes research is a joke and a very lucrative business
So why are you citing things about diabetes if you think the research isn't real?

>all those typos
Are you just fucking high, or are you tired of trolling at this point? lol

The route of too much carbs = diabetes is pretty much outdated and wrong

Why phelps is not diabetic? Its pretty obvious

Sat fats and sedentarism are the true source
I'm not making this shit up... is the last on research

Not the same as treatment: if you are on inyectable insulin, then that is another whole thing

>>40962483
>it's the last on research
>but I won't cite any of that research

>>40962480
>source
insulin resistance goes up at night
that is why fasting is based on

>diabetes research
I've read plenty, and I have pasted you a link to an article thar defies previous beliefs. The last discovery about pancreas regeneration would crash the whole synthetic insulin industry

>typos
I'm on mobile, and you sound pretty clueless

>>40962496
I'm on mobilem but I will providr you that one

This link destroys the thread
https://arstechnica.com/science/2017/02/a-fasting-diet-may-trigger-regeneration-of-a-diabetic-pancreas/

Haha

>>40962555
>insulin resistance goes up at night
>that is why fasting is based on

... no

when you sleep, you're in a fasted state, and your insulin level goes down, i.e. your insulin sensitivity increases

>>40962442
I hope you can excuse the youtube links, I don't have the studies open rn. The same things are said in the official dietary guidlines. Consuming fat+protein together leads to a big increase in bloog sugar and thus insulin. Hence why the eating habits of a lot of meat/dairy in the western world has lead to the diabetes epidemic. Sugar an processed carbs are equally bad. I'm a different guy by the way.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Aw8hufhIDu0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t-f9Q_-tT68

>>40962555
>link says that fasting might reverse diabetes
>destroys the thread

Are you genuinely retarded?

>>40962578
thats in the morning after sleeping
>breakfast

>>40962555
>when asked for source, just repeats claim with no source

>this link destroys the thread
How? None of my posts in the thread were related to regenerating the pancreas, at all.

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>>40961577

>>40962604
I don't even know what you think you mean.

>>40961699
good bait (you)

>>40962599

>fasters avoid insulin
>fast in mice retriggers insulin production
I will not try explaining myself again
sorry mate
>>40962622
>regeneration of the pancreas
>diabetes
>not related
lad

>>40962637
Insulin sensitivity goes in hand with circadian rhythms

I'm out
thank you all

>>40962593
Where does this say that saturated fats are the MAIN contributor to type 2 diabetes? That they are a contributor was never a sticking point for me.

https://duckduckgo.com/?t=lightning&q=type+ii+diabetes+saturated+fats&ia=web

You can find articles on both sides of the spectrum

As I told you, diabetes research is a joke

http://ucdintegrativemedicine.com/2016/09/diet-diabetes-saturated-fats-real-enemy/

>>40962683
>diabetes
This is a fasting thread, mate. Even if I choose to indulge you, who claimed anything one way or the other about regenerating pancreases? It certainly wasn't me.

>fast in mice triggers insulin production
OH lol that's what you meant, jesus you are a moron. Saying that regenerating the pancreas is the same as triggering insulin production is like saying that growing breast tissue is the same as triggering breast milk production, or that regenerating the liver is the same as triggering urine production.

>>40962730
If diabetes research such a joke, why are you citing it?

>>40962688
Ah that's what you meant. As I said I'm a different guy, I don't think it's THE main factor. I'd say it's the combination of saturated fat and sugary shit that people eat. We were talking past each other.

>>40962765
Because I think its interesting
many people are afraid to see there are other strategies , or that their own could be trash
they can get pretty mad
>>40962741
I can't follow you, and I dont care either. Cheers

>>40962786
Agreed. Cheers.

>>40948143
Fasting is perfectly fine unless you're already lean. <6-10% you've got so little fat that your body starts to switch to burning muscle to avoid cutting into its essential fat stores. Anything above that and your body naturally switches to ketosis (remember, the Low-Carb-High-Fat diet known as "keto" is just a diet. The actual metabolic state of "nutritional ketosis" has nothing to do with how much fat you eat, it's all about how many carbs [and to a lesser extent, protein] you DON'T eat. No food = no carbs = one of the many ketogenic diets).

Anyone >15% bodyfat who claims they lost all their gainz from fasting is either just experiencing the loss of intramuscular water volume from getting rid of their glycogen or just frustrated that there wasn't actually any muscle underneath their fatceps

I'm doing IF right now and eating between noon and 8, I'm noticably dropping weight without losing muscle (at least visually) and I feel great, why didn't I try this crap before

>>40963061
I have a question for you since I'm planning on doing the same thing as you. I work 8:30 - 5:30 pm so I eat lunch at 12. Now, the question here is:

Should I eat before working out or after? my 2nd meal lands before 8pm. People say eating before working out increases insulin levels, resulting in less fat being burnt. Is this true?