Honestly /fit/ Is going vegan worth it? Ethical reasons, of

Its not any more expensive than eating meat. Giving up cheese is hard though.

>>39823343
>But is it expensive?
If you eat mock-meat bullshit every day, yes. If you eat a lot of beans and rice and stuff like that, no.
>Do you feel healthier?
Yes but that's because I eat healthy, not because of veganism: I know people with shit-tier vegan diets.
>I'm thinking of trying veganism for acne
Probably won't work. Maybe it's the dairy?

Veganism is just about getting your nutrients from non-animal sources. Whether it works or is healthy or whatever depends of what nutrients you get into your body. Only reason to go full vegan is environmental concern and ethical concern for animals; any other benifit can be had from eating lots of veggies and whole foods and limiting meat intake to lean meats.

I have been vegan for 9 years, I don't remember a big difference either way in how i felt after changing over. Probably cheaper if you avoid the fake meat processed dogshit.

The worst part about it is other vegans. It attracts a lot of fucking retards and has a cult element to it. People love labels and being part of a group, just keep it to yourself and it will be fine.

I would suggest a diet that is like 80% vegan and just eat very small amounts of fish/chicken/eggs and cut out the rest. No need to go to the extreme.

I've been a vEgan for a few weeks now. Honestly dairy fucked my shit up and I feel pretty good. I'm never bloated and it's easier to eat healthy. Healthy sweet foods can be expensive if you like the alternatives to ice cream here and there. Cook plain meals like beans brown rice veggies.

>>39823343
>I'm thinking of trying veganism
You should really think about it. But not do it.

>>39823343

No, its not worth being low test with gyno and losing half your muscles just cause you felt bad about some cows.

Just look at indians

>>39823612

My lifts have been going up since I turned vegan six months ago, just like they would have on a non vegan diet. Stop spouting your ignorant meme garbage.

>>39823343
It's expensive if you fall into the Whole Foods/stereotypical vegan meme shit. Hispanic and Asian (south, east, southeast) are pretty accommodating of that shit. If you understand how to read a label and basic nutrition, you're good. Start with an "easier" goal like "no cholesterol" or something first

>>39823514
>The worst part about it is other vegans. It attracts a lot of fucking retards and has a cult element to it. People love labels and being part of a group, just keep it to yourself and it will be fin
The reason I don't tell people. I just mislead them into thinking I'm lactose intolerant and religious

What's your diet like?

>>39823778

Thats cause youve only been lifting for 6 months and 1 day you fucking pajeet

Rice, beans, and potatoes are among the cheapest food in the world. So no not expensive.

>>39823837

I'm at 1/2/3/4 pl8 so regardless of what your pig brain thinks, I'm probably stronger than you. Go eat dead animal bodyparts and drink some cow puss.

>>39823793
My diet is okay, could be a lot better

I eat the same oats for breakfast everyday, 1 cup oats, 1 scoop of a vegan blend from myprotein, some raisins, banana, shredded coconut, chia seeds and some soymilk

My favourite meal is red beans and rice which i learned how to make from this video, never really found a good vegan sausage to cook with it but the linda mccartney range has some bearable ones
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6_7cABsupXw

This Korean soup cooking the mushrooms in place of the meat
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SR7xjhHY6BY

I get burritos from zambreros when I can, they are kind of expensive though.
I just eat a lot of beans, lentils, tofu, rice, avocado, pasta and some fruits.

>>39824016
Why coconut? I've been fucking with chia, flax, and hemp seeds. I avoid soy milk 'cause I notice there's so much soy in shit I eat already
Breakfast for me is like 50g granola, 50g Edge cereal with 250ml plant milk, chia seeds, sometimes fruits + banana/peanut butter sandwich on whole grain + maybe an orange and/or carrots

Lunch is legumes and grains for that complete protein. Been trying the beans and rice recipes off NoMeatAthlete (the site gets memey so you gotta sift) with some Gardein beefless ground for protein boost

Dinner is something smaller, like roasted yams and carrots with a salad and avocado

How's your iodine? I usually eat like 5g of nori a week

I'm lucky 'cause there's a lot of chinks where I live, so there are vegetarian chink restaurant and the prices are really cost effective

>>39823888

Pajeets say the darnest things.

>>39824171
>Why coconut?
Just threw some in one day and ended up liking it. I use flaxmeal sometimes and some PB2 too
>I avoid soy milk
Not a bad idea, I have almond milk or just water in my shakes but soy with just oats
>NoMeatAthlete
Haha you are right, it looks like a mixture of decent and awful. Hard to get gardein where I am, people say it's really good though.
>iodine
I just use salt that is iodised, not sure if that's enough or what

Outside of that I just take a b-12 tablet, though my b-12 was really high last time i had a blood test, some spirulina and zma. Zma dreams are great but I don't think it does much else.

I would get takeout a lot more but where I am from it's pretty bad for vegan stuff and usually far more expensive than just eating meat

>>39823343
>>39823492

This. If you hit your micros, especially from natural sources, you'll feel far better than if you don't. You'll also have to eat more protein from a wider variety of sources to account for bioavailability (e.g. Squash and Beans).

>be unironically vegan
>love /fit/
>/fit/ hates vegans
This sucks

>>39824793
>I just use salt that is iodised, not sure if that's enough or what
Not about that added salt.

I was really surprised when I walked into Walmart for the first time in years and they had Gardein, Yves, So Delicious, etc. Hopefully you get lucky. Also, chinks and their wheat gluten

See if you can get vital wheat gluten (it may have another name where you are like wheat flour) to bake some protein bread. Another anon suggested I mix in chickpea flour for better nutrition

>>39823343
>Is going vegan worth it? Ethical reasons, of course
Nah ethical reason are not worth shit by default

>>39823343
If you make your own food, it isn't. Unless you try to get all of your proteins from nuts, which would turn an otherwise unexpensive diet intoo something six times above average.
Incidently, if you eat out, it WILL be much more expensive. You can blame leftists for that.

You may or may not feel healthier depending entirely on your bowel movement, and as long as you're doing it right.
If your shitting was shitty before, you'll feel like a new man. If your shitting was ok before, you'll crap a newborn child either way.
However, most people that feel healthier with veganism is because they actually learnt how to eat right in the first place, not because of veganism per sé.

The main reason why veganism is unsustainable for humans is because most humans are retarded as fuck and can't complete their protein profile even if their lives literally depend on it. Most would choose to give up veganism instead of dying... but, do understand that it's their fault, not veganism's.

One last thing, if you tell an inuit to go vegan he'll tell you to go fuck yourself.

>>39823343
Went vegan 4 years ago after dropping fake and pumped up meat. Big city food has a lot of shit in it, if you start looking at the labels you will barely eat anything.

The problem also is even if you don't consume animal products, most of the veggies etc. are watered up (don't know how to say it properly in English), basically they are worth less regarding nutritional value.

Give up foods with added sugar, smoothies, etc. and you're gonna be fine. Even better if you go vegan and don't eat food with sugary shit.

Experiences with a full vegan diet, without sugar (occasional Coke Zero, I know I know):

- Better, easier shits
- Faster metabolism
- Less sleep needed
- Can eat as much as I want without getting fat
- No supplements needed
- No skin problems like acne

Negatives might be that people make fun of you, but if you are not a self-conscious prick you'll be fine.

The problem with "veganism" is the entitled shitheads who do not understand nature. Animals kill each other, eat rotting flesh. Men did that too, and you would eat your classmates if it came down to that.

Sry for the blogpost lads.

>>39826507
OP here cheers guys


Gonna go for a shop later, I'm on a huge budget so just stock up on loads of beans rice and some sort of pasta sauce?

>>39827550
Go without pre-made sauces man.

Pasta, rice, beans, buy large if you can, cheaper.

>>39823343
>trying veganism
You dont have to /cult/ yourself to eat less animal products, but it's a good choice. Huge climate impact, and once you're used to not eating meat, the thought of eating it again will disgust you.
It's not hard being a fat vegan, though, but if you eat clean it's definitely healthy for you.
The environmental and ethical aspects to it is definitely why I gave up meat, makes you feel pretty good about yourself. Anyone who is all "MEAT ERRYDAY" should be annihilated for not accepting the huge impact it has on the earth and not doing anything about it

>>39823343

There are benefits. The biggest scare of eating meat, for me, is that meat is propped full of antibiotics. So by eating most store bought meat you're actually increasing your tolerance for antibiotics - which scares the hell out of me.

Otherwise, some fish is good for you and not really healthy to cut out of your diet. Just saying.

>>39823343
You get up and take your preworkout, a combination of chemicals mass produced at factory level with lots of waste, out of a bottle of plastic that either ends up in a landfill or the ocean, drive your shitty car to work emitting co2 and polluting the air, lift weights with metals that destroyed water tables during mining, only to go on later that night on your electronic device made by slave and child labor in china to say how you're all about ethics. My, how mighty you are

>>39827972
very nice straw man!! well done

>>39823514
>>39823581
>>39823778
>>39824016
>>39824171
>>39824793
>>39825836
>>39827547
>>39826507
>>39827709
Do you guys take creatine? The only dietary source of creatine is meat and taking creatine supplements increase cognitive performance in vegetarians but not in meat eaters (indicating a creatine deficiency in vegetarians).

>>39828060

I take creatine and drink whey protein, I'm vegetarian (no eggs though)

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>>39827972
>you own a phone and a car which is needed
>you cant be against needless brutal enviroment destruction, a holocaust of animals for a burger cus you need to use transport

Ok.

>>39825836
Stay strong, brah.

>>39828060
Creatine, taurine and BCAAs. Feels better than when I didn't take them, but honestly I was a couch potato back then so....

>>39827972

>chill on the roids son, people who jump all over vegans for being preachy when that vegan isn't being preachy are embarrassing

>>39828170
Roids are VEGAN and because I'm not a FAGGOT I make sure to add COWBLOOD before injecting!!!

>>39828447
DELET THIS

I don't follow a vegan diet but try to support animal rights in other ways, for example I only buy free range eggs from chickens that are outdoors, I use natural/organic products like shampoo.

This is not just for the sake of animals, I don't want to eat food from animals that are fed antibiotics, hormones and god knows what, and want to support alternative business.

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Why do you faggots insist on making this thread? It's not /fit/ related. Go to literally any other board.

>>39827694
>Anyone who is all "MEAT ERRYDAY" should be annihilated for not accepting the huge impact it has on the earth and not doing anything about it

You seemed to have /cult/ed yourself just fine bud. This is exactly why veganism is seen at best as a bad joke and at worst as complete insanity.

>>39827972
Don't forget all the slave child labor needed to make their clothing and the slave migrant labor needed to grow their food. But we all know vegans don't care about people.

>>39828566
R u me?

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>>39829211
>R u me?
Yes

The only vegan athlete I known is that Rich Panini. The guy seems pretty buff despite being natty, so I think that's the secret to make it.

>>39828060
Yes, that's an important issue. Not life or death importance, because we already make our own, but it does matter. Creatine sups are usually from GMO yeast, and therefore, vegan, so it won't really be against your diet. Which reminds me...
OP, ever noticed how so many vegans are bitter as fuck? It's usually tryptophan and/or tyrosine deficiency. Both essential aminoacids with huge improvements in mood to the point where a person with deficiency on either has antidepressant effects. Cognitive performance boost in vegetarians with creatine is also antidepressive in action.

>>39828133
Tbh, I cannot fathom why someone would want to not eat eggs but have no issue with drinking milk. Eggs are superior to milk, as they have both a complete aminoacid profile, but eggs have better fats - no fat present in milk is redeemable.

>>39829501
Joke's on you I was already depressed before I stopped eating meat.

>>39829501

I don't drink fucking milk, just use whey protein powder. Dumb fuck

>>39829211
Except the impact cows make against climate is verifiable and real, and being or not on a cult won't change that. You're the /cult/ist.

>>39830407
Yeez, chill the fuck down bitch nigger fuck fartface. Kek. But do chill, man.
On a sidenote, if someone came to you and gave you a chicken, would you not eat her eggs? I'm just curious, again.

>>39826507

after you've said "cant complete their protein". You are really uninformormed about that.

>>39830444
>we should kill everyone who eats meat daily
>oh no, I'm the calm rational one here!

I know you're doing your best to convince people you're right, and it's so bad that I can't decide whether to pity yiu or just laugh and ignore your insane ass.

>but muh cow emissions

Easily fixable if you buy locally raised, pastured beef and dairy like myself. It's easy to address environmental concerns without going full poo in loo or advocating genocide.

>>39830464

No, I don't want to eat a hen's period. Period.

>>39830685
You have a remarkably poor understanding of biology. I can see why you're a vegcuck.

If you accept that animals have rights, eating animals is wrong.

There are a few arguments for whatever "natural" bullshit meat-eaters like to make, ie. that humans are carnivores.

Humans have zero predator instincts. We don't have claws to hunt and kill, to tear cows' throats out. Our hands are perfect for picking fruits from trees and berries from bushes. Our digestive tract etc. are like 5 times the length of our torso, which means digesting food takes a long time, ie. not suited for consuming meat, unlike real predators like lions and tigers.

Meat also increases blood Ph. How do our bodies deal with that acidity? By leeching phosphate from our bones. This is why Western societies, ie. meat-eating societies have an abundance of osteoporosis etc.

If you put a 2 year old child in a cage with a rabbit and an apple, which one do you think the kid will eat? Will it eat the rabbit down to the bone? I think not.

Meat-eating isn't innate, it's taught by tradition.

>>39830734
>Humans have zero predator instincts.
>Meat also increases blood Ph
>Meat-eating isn't innate, it's taught by tradition.

Holy fucking shit, you're terminally stupid. You're literally just lying about basic biology and human behavior just because your cult blogs told you it was true. Even worse is that you've had every one of these "arguments" annihilated multiple times before, yet you still insist on spouting the same debunked garbage every vegan thread.

>If you put a 2 year old child in a cage with a rabbit and an apple, which one do you think the kid will eat

Kek, you changed this from your retarded baby argument that you tried to use last time I see, but failed to grasp why the argument is broken to begin with

>>39828060

Creatine is one of those things you don't need a dietary source of because your body makes it

>>39830784

Honestly, if you don't have the brains to even consider what was said, and just resort to calling me a liar, you really deserve whatever cholesterol related disease is in the horizon for you.

>>39830784
Jaw Type
Carnivore Angle not expanded
Herbivore Expanded angle
Omnivore Angle not expanded
Human Expanded angle

Jaw Joint Location
Carnivore On same plane as molar teeth
Herbivore Above the plane of the molars
Omnivore On same plane as molar teeth
Human Above the plane of the molars

Jaw Motion
Carnivore Shearing; minimal side-to-side motion
Herbivore No shear; good side-to-side, front-to-back
Omnivore Shearing; minimal side-to-side
Human No shear; good side-to-side, front-to-back

Major Jaw Muscles
Carnivore Temporalis
Herbivore Masseter and pterygoids
Omnivore Temporalis
Human Masseter and pterygoids


Teeth (Incisors)
Carnivore Short and pointed
Herbivore Broad, flattened and spade shaped
Omnivore Short and pointed
Human Broad, flattened and spade shaped

Teeth (Canines)
Carnivore Long, sharp and curved
Herbivore Dull and short or long (for defense), or none
Omnivore Long, sharp and curved
Human Short and blunted

Teeth (Molars)
Carnivore Sharp, jagged and blade shaped
Herbivore Flattened with cusps vs complex surface
Omnivore Sharp blades and/or flattened
Human Flattened with nodular cusps

Chewing
Carnivore None; swallows food whole
Herbivore Extensive chewing necessary
Omnivore Swallows food whole and/or simple crushing
Human Extensive chewing necessary

Saliva
Carnivore No digestive enzymes
Herbivore Carbohydrate digesting enzymes
Omnivore No digestive enzymes
Human Carbohydrate digesting enzymes


Stomach Acidity
Carnivore Less than or equal to pH 1 with food in stomach
Herbivore pH 4 to 5 with food in stomach
Omnivore Less than or equal to pH 1 with food in stomach
Human pH 4 to 5 with food in stomach
Length of Small Intestine
Carnivore 3 to 6 times body length
Herbivore 10 to more than 12 times body length
Omnivore 4 to 6 times body length
Human 10 to 11 times body length

Colon
Carnivore Simple, short and smooth
Herbivore Long, complex; may be sacculated
Omnivore Simple, short and smooth
Human Long, sacculated

>>39830878
Okay, now do the same thing, but only include primates.

>>39823343
I'm not vegan, but plant-based foods are much cheaper.
I usually live by oatmeal on milk, pasta/buckwheat/lentils with self-made tomato sauce, eggs and some cheap fish (like sprats). I rarely buy meat, because the cheap stuff is shit quality and the good stuff is unreasonably expensive when compared to what you can buy for the same price (lots of oats or whole-wheat pasta instead of a single chicken breast).

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>>39830824
I blast your asshole every time you post this shit, why should I be expected to endlessly debunk the same non arguments that you post every fucking thread? I'm not as obsessed as you are, and anybody with two brain cells to rub together and a basic education knows you're lying.

>>39830878
>not just posting the debunked "le humans are frugivores" jpeg

>>39830936
>plant based foods are much cheaper

Lolwut? Maybe if you solely eat rice and pinto beans, but if you want variety or vegetables then you're going to be spending a lot more.

>tfw pig and beef feet are a buck a pound
>cooking ham is fifty cents a pound
>chicken gizzards are usually a buck a pound but often go on insane sales where I can get three pounds for 14 cents
>20 butcher box gives me enough meat to have meat with every meal for a month no problem
>grass-fed butter regularly goes on sale for 2 bucks a pound
>white fish in season is 75 cents a pound

Learn to shop breh.

>>39831030
Are you American? I only see Americans complain about vegetables being expensive.

>>39831065
Yeah, but vegetables are expensive on a calorie to price ratio regardless of where you are unless you solely buy potatoes. If you want some real ruffage and nutrition then you're going to be spending some money as a vegan. Living solely off of grains and legumes is going to have piss poor micros.

>>39831007
This is my first time posting in a vegan thread on fit. It's obvious that your stance on the whole issue isn't based on logic, but strong feeling. Another victim of the meat-industry lobbying machine!

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>>39831146
Sure bud, that's why your comment was almost word for word one I saw a couple weeks back. I guess all you fags just use the same propoganda booklet to guide your lying then.

>le ur mad so your opinion is invalid

No, just tired of the endless vegan shitposting despite literally every argument being annihilated ad nauseum.

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>>39831030
>nigger foods
Enjoy your heart attack.

But seriously, anyone who lifts should eat a ton of veggies and legumes. Question is whether you eat lots of meat also, or just more legumes and some tofu/tempeh. Obviously the latter will be cheaper.

>>39830878
>>39830922
>>39830784
>>39830732
>naturalist fallacy
Also, enjoy my high-protein vegan "ham" I made for X-mas. Was awesome.

>>39823343
I'm vegetarian but my mom is mostly vegan. It's a little more expensive but not by more than a few dollars if you know what to get and where to get it from (for example, buy Great Value soymilk instead of Silk; it's pretty much the same thing but 50-60 cents cheaper). It really helps if you learn to cook and don't fall for the fake meat meme. I mean, the shit tastes good, but you rarely get enough out of it to justify the price. Love me some black bean burgers though.

>>39831030
>>39831113

On your meat diet, you don't eat vegetables as well?

>>39823492
>Veganism is just about getting your nutrients from non-animal sources. Whether it works or is healthy or whatever depends of what nutrients you get into your body. Only reason to go full vegan is environmental concern and ethical concern for animals; any other benifit can be had from eating lots of veggies and whole foods and limiting meat intake to lean meats.

>lean meats
>not eating fatty salmon
>regurgitating tired worn out bullshit someone else deficated

Stay pleb tier, forever.

>>39823612
Wow you meat cucks are really getting caught up in your lies to justify your terrible diet

"Vegans had higher testosterone levels than vegetarians and meat-eaters, but this was offset by higher sex hormone binding globulin, and there were no differences between diet groups in free testosterone, androstanediol glucuronide or luteinizing hormone."

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2374537/

>>39831189
>every argument being annihilated ad nauseum
I have never seen a logically valid argument against it. In fact I rarely see even bad argument, just insults and dumb fallacies.

This is a vegan thread. Why can't we have one for giving tips and such? No one is shilling, no one came into a omnivore thread and started shit. Why come here to pick a fight and then complain?

>>39831231
Well fish would be an exception, salmon is great for Omega3, but most meats don't have healthy fats.

Do any vegans ITT take Omega3 supplements? I've been doing it for 2 months, feeling better honestly.

>>39824366
>>39823837
>>39823612
Tell this guy a vegan diet doesn't work
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QdTc2Gv52uI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cKiGjQvFN44

>>39830660

>Easily fixable if you buy locally raised, pastured beef and dairy like myself

Local cows don't produce methane?

>>39831291
flax seed, walnuts and algae for days....

>>39830660
>your insane ass.
I am a different guy who enjoys eating meat and this is unrelated to your arguments.

you sound like a single mom in her 20s when you say this.

or really when you use the "your _______ ass." formula

it sounds really stupid.

>>39831200
>nigger foods

I figured vegcucks would like all of the animal being used. I guess we should just throw out anything that isn't a prime muscle cut, that's much less wasteful. Dumb faggot.

>>39831200
>still spamming your nasty tempeh shit

Nobody cares and nobody will make it.

>>39831217
I think you're illiterate.

>>39831253
Sure you haven't. It's easy to believe your lies when you dismiss everything that challenges your world view as "invalid".

>>39831303
Not nearly as much, no. High methane flatulence and feces is largely a result of a grain diet fucking up cows digestion. It also severely reduces the environmental impact from grains, transport and antibiotics that grain fed industrially raised cattle produce.

>>39831319
Whatever you say vegcuck.

>>39831329

> High methane flatulence and feces is largely a result of a grain diet fucking up cows digestion

Not true. In fact grass-fed cows are worse for methane production, because it takes much longer to fatten a cow with grass, giving it more time to produce methane.

>>39831329
>tempeh shit
It's not tempeh you dumb nigger.

You might not make it but it's great vegan recipe.

>>39831329
I'm serious. It's just either variations of the naturalist fallacy, insulting vegans and questioning their masculinity, or claiming that ethics don't matter at all (or at least that gainz matter more). A few people mention impracticalities ("it's too expensive...", "I'd have to take more supplements") but these are personal excuses and not counter-arguments.

>>39831336
Ok, keep talking like a complete retard.

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>>39831396
Wow, nice source bud.

>>39831401
>naturalist fallacy

Telling a retard that eggs aren't periods is a naturalist fallacy?

>insulting vegans

Youre on 4chan insults are part of every discussion you dumbass.

>questioning ethics

That's why basing your philosophy on fringe ethics is a bad idea when you're trying to convert others. Nice job ignoring all the scientific and logical arguments that get posted as well. I guess everything is just an ad home to you since it hurts your feelings.

Personally I just insult now because it became painfully obvious half a year ago that no amount of logic or science would ever convince a vegan. Why do you think retarded shit like "humans are omnivores", "humans can't digest meat", and "meat eating isn't instinctive for humans" still gets spammed in every vegan thread? I'm not going to write an essay just so you dumb fags can say "lol no" and spam nutritionfacts.org links and jpegs in lieu of ever refuting anything I say. I call you fags retards because you've all proven that you are legitimately mentally challenged, probably as a result of poor nutrition.

>>39831500

http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/es901131e

>The increasing proportion of lot-fed beef in Australia is favorable, since this production system generates lower total GHG emissions than grass-fed production; the additional effort in producing and transporting feeds is effectively offset by the increased efficiency of meat production in feedlots.

>>39831500
>Telling a retard that eggs aren't periods is a naturalist fallacy?
No, that's a factually correct rebuttal against one retard's use of the "ick-argument", itself a fallacy. It doesn't discredit veganism, however, just that particular 'argument' by that particular retard.

>insults are part of every discussion
Of course and I don't mind them, it's just that when they stop being A PART of discussions and become the only thing, it's not really a discussion any more. My complaint wasn't against the presence of insults, but against insults being pretty much all that was offered besides fallacies and excuses.

Scientific arguments cannot be made against ethical positions. Science can illuminate practical issues with certain actions taken in the name of ethics, but that's about it. For example, all nutritional arguments do exactly that; illuminate practical issues. They do not and cannot prove that the end goal, no animal suffering, is wrong.

Also vegans are guilty of fallacies and poor argument skills as well. I think people on 4chan are just dumb?

>>39823343
You do feel healthier if you do it right. It will help acne but only mildly and after you have done it for weeks. See a dermatologist.

>>39829501
>It's usually tryptophan
Protein greatly impairs the ability of tryptophan to reach the brain. High-protein foods containing tryptophan like meat don't affect brain tryptophan that much. The best way to affect brain tryptophan levels is with foods that are both low-protein and high-tryptophan many of which are vegan.

>I cannot fathom why someone would want to not eat eggs
Associated with higher risk of cancer

>>39831640
What do you expect /fit/ to do, try to condense 12 years of primary and secondary education into 2000 words, just to have it ignored by vegan cult members? We tried this a year ago for months and most of us realized what a complete waste of time arguing with vegans is. So we just mock them now.

>>39832535
Vegetarian and Vegan diets have been shown to have the following benefits.

(VE = veggy) (V = vegan) (B = both).

>(VE) protection against cardiovascular diseases, cardiometabolic risk factors, some cancers and total mortality (1)
>(V) the above benefits and additional protection from obesity, hypertension, type-2 diabetes, and cardiovascular mortality (1)
>(VE) Improved glycemic control in T2 Diabetes (2)
>(V) significantly lower risk for overall cancer (3, 5)
>(VE) lower risks for diabetes, diverticular disease and eye cataracts (4)
>(B) less likely to suffer from hypertension (5)
>(VE) better metabolic profile (6)
>(B) lower anxiety (7)
>(VE) less negative emotions, improved mood (8, 9)
>(V) alleviates symptoms of Osteoarthritis (10)
>(V) healthier gut microbiota profile with more anti-inflammatory and disease-preventing microbiota (11)
>(VE) improves insulin resistance (12)
>(VE) reduces oxidative stress and improves the bodies anti-oxidant status (12, 13, 14)
> Meat is known to cause inflammation and cancer progression (the cellular mechanism by which it does so is known) (15)

1 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4073139/
2 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25414824
3 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26853923
4 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26707634
5 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23169929
5 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22230619
6 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26355190
7 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25415255
8 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20515497
9 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22333737
10 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4359818/
11 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4245565/
12 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3427880/
13 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3349038/
14 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15474873
15 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25548184

>>39832691
Kek, that's how it always starts. And if I went through and pointed out the study breaking methodological errors, p hacking (that still only brings a very weak correlation), or post nutritional studies showing the opposite, you'll dismiss and/or ignore the whole comment. I've done this before. I don't care if you eat your shit diet, I just don't want multiple vegan threads spammed here daily.

>>39830806
Your body doesn't make enough of it.

>>39832743
>And if I went through and pointed out the study breaking methodological errors, p hacking (that still only brings a very weak correlation)

Most of those have pretty good methodologies, if there were major flaws than other researchers shilling for the meat industry would have wrote comments under the article. People who have been published on pubmed can write public responses that show up instantly under articles, because nobody wrote a comment saying the methodology was flawed that indicates the study is sound.

>or post nutritional studies showing the opposite

Which are vastly outweighed by the number of quality studies showing it's healthier

>I just don't want multiple vegan threads spammed here daily.

At most there are 1 or 2 threads on it every day if that. It's not hard to just ignore them or filter out "vegan"

>>39832808
"Pretty good" by nutrition "science" standards is laughably bad by real scientific standards.

>showing it's healthier

See aforementioned criticisms. Weak correlations obtained through multiple unethical and irresponsible means proves nothing bud.

>>you should tolerate my daily off topic shitposting because of the filters

No.

>>39832845

I'm pretty sure those studies are credible I have not seen any evidence they aren't, only baseless claims.

Also, it's not just that there is credible statistical evidence that veganism is healthier (which it is) but scientists know the exact mechanisms by which meat fucks up your body and causes health issues, for example here is one study (published in one of the top journals outside of the big 3):

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4299224/


>you should tolerate my daily off topic shitposting because of the filters

Oh no, you might have to "tolerate" threads you don't like, the horror! It's not like you can just not click on them, poor you.

It's not off-topic, the question of which diets are conducive to exercise, good health, building muscle, losing fat etc is extremely relative to /fitness

>>39828170
Naw bro I often go through periods where I cut meat and dairy because there are undeniable health benefits, but my sides rocket out of orbit when these vegans pretend they're good people to feel better about themselves. They're only "good people" when it's convienient to them

Wow, we came a long way as a race where millions of individuals can afford being malnourished and still live long.
Seriously people, that thing we have between our earns no hervibore has needs a lot of sugars, phosphorus and a shitton of ATP you can only get by consuming something energetic like animal fat.
I respect vegans, why not? Everyone has the right to die however they choose. What I don't tolerate is the vegan proselitism and the child abuse that is forcing a kid to be vegan

>>39832909
One study against all the physicians, doctors and nutritionists of the fucking world.

Golly gee, I'm gonna be vegan right now.

No seriously, go outside your fucking bubble and talk to an actual doctor. If after saying you should eat a little of everything you think he's an evil lizardman paid by the meat lobby, just ask another. And another. Until you realize you are wrong.

Or it turns out every doctor is bought by the lobby, obviously. Duh.

>>39832909
>I'm pretty sure those studies are credible I have not seen any evidence they aren't, only baseless claims.

Kek, you vegan samefags are so predictable. If I spend an hour breaking apart each linked study, my replies are either dismissed or ignored without fail. If I don't do that because it's a complete waste of time, you claim that the studies are totally fine since I didn't dismantle them yet again.

>but scientists know the exact mechanisms by which meat fucks up your body and causes health issues

Jesus you're full of shit.

>It's not off-topic

Absolutely is not /fit/ related in any way. Go to /sci/ if you wan to debate the health benefits or /ck/ if you want to discuss your diet. It's funny, prior to the handle of vegans endlessly shitposting their cult on /fit/, I didn't really give a fuck about veganism. Now, I hate vegans and see them for the lying, stupid, willfully ignorant morons they are, and I am hardly alone in this. All your threads have done is turn more people against your cult. Congrats.

Feel free to spam more shit studies or autistically rage, I won't be reading your reply.

>>39833116
>One study against all the physicians, doctors and nutritionists of the fucking world.

Are you retarded? Many physicians and nutritionists recognize that veganism is very healthy and openly talk about it. That's how I know you have gotten all your info from shitty blogs and haven't read the medical literature yourself.

The consensus in the medical literature (which you would have known if you had read it) is that as long as one makes sure to do it properly and get everything the body needs that veganism is perfectly healthy and may be beneficial. Not everyone agrees that it has been solidly proven to be good but right now it's considered the mainstream view that veganism done right is perfectly healthy and is likely healthier than regular diets.

>>39833218
>If I spend an hour breaking apart each linked study, my replies are either dismissed or ignored without fail. If I don't do that because it's a complete waste of time, you claim that the studies are totally fine since I didn't dismantle them yet again.

In the absence of you providing any evidence showing they are bad you are just running your mouth.

>Jesus you're full of shit.

No I'm not did you even read the fucking study that I linked? Are you scientifically literate at all? It shows exactly what I said it did.

>I hate vegans and see them for the lying, stupid, willfully ignorant morons they are, and I am hardly alone in this. All your threads have done is turn more people against your cult. Congrats. Feel free to spam more shit studies or autistically rage, I won't be reading your reply.

lmao why are you so triggered? If you don't like veganism than don't go in vegan threads, when you throw a fit like this you look silly.

>>39833278
>lol vegans tell everyone about veganism meme
>vegans btfo!

so original

>>39833116

>against all the physicians, doctors and nutritionists of the fucking world.

The study he linked is on red meat's promotion of cancer and inflammation. Red meat is on every health authority's shit list.

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>>39833311

>>39833227
>Many physicians and nutritionists recognize that veganism is very healthy and openly talk about it.

MEEEP stop using weasel words
Man, wikipedia would be all over you asking WHO, WHO, WHO like a fucking owl

I know that when people get their beliefs challenged they double down, it's an evolutionary mechanism.
What worries me deeply is that you treat nutrition like a belief and that tells me a lot.

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>vegan
>fit related

Nutrition is just a voluntary and educable mechanism for acquiring nutrients for life, not a religion.
There's literally nothing wrong about eating animals if they aren't pumped with chemicals (like plants can be, btw) and believing otherwise is just magical thinking.

I know, it's sad I have to resort to psychology but since there isn't any rational discourse, let's treat the problem at the bud.

>>39833406
Vegans are all about being slippery little fucks because they are trying to match the data to arrive at a desired conclusion.

>weasel words that sound convincing superficially and give plausible deniability if vegans are called out
>out of context quotes and references (i.e. red meat being classed a "possible" carcinogen, right along shit like cellphones)
>appeals to authority, appeals to nature, ad homs, red herrings, etc.
>spamming nutritional studies with horrid methodology and p-hacking that still only barely arrive at a weak correlation
>these studies still only compare veganism to the Standard American Diet, further eroding what little credibility they had since SAD is universally recognized as shit
>heavy focus on moral and ethical arguments despite them having zero bearing over objective discussions

The sad thing is I'm studying direcion of drink and food services, to manage restaurants and bars, we control everything even nutrition, and we are trained to accomodate any taste or preference.
Hell, I even plan on making a project about making general hotels vegan friendly since it's trending.
But I fucking hate that they sell to me it's better. It isn't. Just shut up and be vegan. I won't try to convince otherwise, I won't preach about meat, but for fucks sake, I won't ever admit it's better.

I don't give a shit about whatever meat industry double standards being apweded in this thread. Fact is, I can have a nutritional protein rich diet without any animal getting slaughtered by a pajeet in a torture factory.

There's a huge disconnect between the product you buynina supermarket and the reality of factory farming. Cows, chickens and pigs don't have to worry about going to hell, they're already in there. Have you even seen the footage?

It's about doing the right thing you genocide enabling cucks.

no

no

no

>>39833453
Oh and I forgot:

>outright lying about basic biology and reality (humans are herbivores, we can't digest meat, etc.)
>lies by omission about literally everything (biggest one is ignoring the reality of phytotoxins in food)

>>39833527
>la la la reality has no bearing over what I think, I will think what I want to regardless of whether it's correct or not
>oh yeah and if you eat meat you support genocide ;)

You guys are really convincing.

>>39823343
Ehtical reasons are stupid imo for going Vegan. Personal health, that's a different story:

>eat chicken like nigger kang for years
>red meat a few times a week but nothing serious
>have had back issues forever and never been below 15% bf, even when I used to run and swim on top of lifting
>bro at gym tells me about how meat is inflammatory
>Uh, ok
>One day, do a little bit of research on it
>Decide to do an experiment
>Go 3 weeks without any meat or gluten-containing grains
>Lose 22 lbs of just body fat
>Back stopped hurting after about day 5 or 6
>Knees stopped hurting
>Got shredded as fuck

It was an amazing experiment I believe, for me at least. But it's extremely hard to get 200+g of protein a day just from lentils, quinoa, beans, rice, and other veggies. But my grocery bill was only 30 bucks a week because that shit is so cheap.

>>39833551

Eh, what was the argument against cannibalism again? Morality? Hahahah

>>39832535
Leave vegans be? Mock those who attack or tell them to fuck off? Not care?

In the end it's an ethical question, and like I keep saying you cannot scientifically disprove ethics. Nor logically. You can identify statements made by vegans as scientifically incorrect or logically inconsistent, sure, but that only discredits that particular claim made by that particular person, not the overall belief that hurting animals is bad. And vice versa, of course, for vegans arguing against meat eaters.

You can offer up an alternative kind of ethics. This usually leads to a more interesting discussion, and a better exchange of ideas. I like threads where that happens. But ultimatley I'm as free to reject your ethics as you are to reject mine - ultimatley it's a value choice we make, and I can't make you care about animals any more than you can make me not care.

>>39823779
lmfao "no cholesterol" kys stupid fucking faggot retard vegan.

>>39833551

just look at them, vagina gains works out as hard as the next guy and still looks like shit

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>>39833563
>stop eating like a fatass
>reduced weight removes back pain
>hurr all thanks to veganism

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>>39833565
>comparing eating meat to cannabilism

Kek, it's like you retarded fags like being treated as the fringe, insane cult you are.

>>39833563
>muh anecdote

Yeah, this totally isn't yet another vegan samefag post. I bet your dick grew three inches and you grew a foot in height too, right?

>>39833563

Stupid? Well I think it was stupid to let your cuck father ever breed.

I think it was stupid that baryogenesis ever occurred.

I think it was stupid mass curves space.

>>39833563

>cut out two variables at the same time

you big idiot

>>39833527
It's awesome when you know people that raise farm animals, it's not that organic hippie shit because it's just a side business for them but animals live hassle free.

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>>39833577
>leave vegans be

You fags come shitpost endlessly here. Stop doing it and I'll have no reason to interact with you.

>ethical question

Always devolves into "kill all meat eaters", "meat eaters support genocide", "why don't you eat living babies if you're okay with drinking milk", and other such insane statements. Without fail, every thread. You can't have rational discussions with inherently irrational people, even if you keep insisting that you can.

If you ever want vegans to not be seen as a fringe cult that at best is good for an easy joke and at worst a substantial threat, then try to convince your cohorts to stop acting so insane at all times.

>>39833577
let us be to begin with

all vegan threads on the internet starts with "meat is murder" and being patronizing

I think that "turn the other cheek" bullshit is for Jesus or something

And stop weaseling about redefining ethics. That's pretty unethical

>>39833588
When did I ever say I ate like a fatass? I said I ate a lot of chicken.

>>39833590
Nope.

>>39833602
I should mention that I have done the experiment more than once, and have left gluten in the diet with the same result. I just added that part for shits n gigs.

Why y'all so buttmad? Damn.

>>39833636
>Nope.

Sure you aren't buddy. Just like all the other fantastical, convenient anecdotes that pop up right as vegans are being completely reamed.

>vegans
>make rational arguments for eating a plant-based diet using scientific reasoning

>anti-vegans
>throw a tantrum in response, call people cucks, deny all scientific evidence presented while being totally vague about why, and frequently take fringe positions about nutrition just to blindly defend everything related to animal-sourced foods (red meat is healthy, eat all the eggs you want, saturated fat is good, etc)

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>>39832982
This is, I fear, true of many vegans. I cannot recall all the times I've heard some arsehole claim (s)he'd rather have minimum wage workers pollinate plants than bees because (s)he doesn't want to "exploit the bees". Or chosen some faux meat with palm oil in it made by slave labour and claimed it more 'moral' than eating locally grown oysters (that don't even have a fucken CNS!). Or not given a shit about workers in farms or any other ethical or environmental issue.

Other vegans piss me off a lot. It's virtue signaling 9 times out of 10. Few have consistently humanistic values in everything they do. Many even lack convictions besides being vegan.

But I try to be a good person in everything I do, even when it's hard. Being vegan is my way of reducing harm to animals, but that's just a particular case of the more general attempt to not be an arsehole.

>>39833218
>Now, I hate vegans
Honestly, though, if you have the capacity to truly hate people over that you're kinda petty and a garbage person, so I don't really feel like I or anyone made you hate vegans. If hate comes that easy to you, you'd have arrived there at some point.

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>>39833652
>vegans
>call meat eaters genocidal, advocate killing all meat eaters, ignore all refutations against their cult

>normal humans
>got tired of vegans spouting the same tired bullshit daily so resort to mocking the vegan spam threads

>>39833633

"Killing Jews is wrong"

I bet the Nazis thought anyone saying that was being patronizing.

The meat and dairy industries throw billions into making sure you stay inside that sugarcoated bubble.

Its a rude awakening, I know, I felt pretty sick when I understood. I couldn't walk (still can't) through the supermarket meat sections without feeling sick.

Its such a thick veil.

I could quote some philosopher here, but instead I'll just share what we both know : a few centuries from now people will look back and think what the hell was wrong with them.

>>39833684

here we go with the moral grandstanding

>>39833689

>this is actually how you see things

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>>39823343
>Ethical reasons

kill yourself. not even hating on you, the earth is overpopulated, and it's the REAL best way of saving resources and helping the planet

>But is it expensive?

it is if you want to eat the fancy vegan specialty foods which are basically activated almonds-tier. it's cheap as fuck if you're ok with eating vegetables beans and rice

>Do you feel healthier?

this is one of the big vegan scams. healthier compared to what? it's healthier than 80% of the british population, yeah. but only because 80% of the british population are "either overweight, drinking too much, or are physically inactive"

>>39833652
Think you got vegan and non vegan confused there bud

>>39833385
I'm not mad, I posted that because that meme is the most worn-out useless meme there is, it's just what people turn to when they can't say anything else.

>>39833453
>>39833406
>who?

It is the position of the American Dietetic Association that appropriately planned vegetarian diets, including total vegetarian or vegan diets, are healthful, nutritionally adequate, and may provide health benefits in the prevention and treatment of certain diseases.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19562864


>Australia's peak health body, the NH&MRC, has finally recognized that a vegan diet is a viable option for all Australians. Australia's top health experts are now in agreement with those in the USA and Canada that well-planned vegan diets are healthy, nutritionally adequate and are appropriate for all stages of the lifecycle.

http://www.veganaustralia.org.au/government_recognises_vegan_diet_as_viable_option_for_all_australians

https://www.nhmrc.gov.au/guidelines-publications/n55


>Dietitians of Canada: A healthy vegan diet has many health benefits including lower rates of obesity, heart disease, high blood pressure, high blood cholesterol, type 2 diabetes and certain types of cancer.

http://www.dietitians.ca/Your-Health/Nutrition-A-Z/Vegetarian-Diets/Eating-Guidelines-for-Vegans.aspx


>the president of the American College of Cardiology advises people to go vegan

http://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2014/08/06/advice-from-a-vegan-cardiologist/
If you guys still insist on being retarded than first read this study

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4299224/

>>39833636
>When did I ever say I ate like a fatass? I said I ate a lot of chicken.
No, you said you lost a lot of weight which means you were eating like a fatass before forcing a calorie deficit with your meme diet

>>39833690
>unironically comparing normal humans to Nazis

Fucking kek.

>>39833706
You haven't read the thread, have you? See >>39833565
>>39833527
>>39827694
>>39828141

And that's just one thread from me very half assedly skimming the comments. You're living in a fantasy.

>>39833722

Vegans have been the only ones posting studies backing up what they say...

>>39833723
>proving my point this hard

>>39833723
veganism is healthier than the average person's diet.

the average person's diet consists of eating whatever the fuck they feel like eating, in as big a quantity as they can.

the arguably good thing about the veganism cult is that it helps people stick to a diet for once, no matter how misguided the reasons are. when a doctor recommends going vegan, he's basically telling you to go on a healthier diet, except he expects other vegans to keep you in line this time.

>>39833723

The USDA also recommends vegetarian diets as one of their 3 suggested healthy eating plans.

The other 2 diets are the mediterranean diet, which is described as a semi-vegetarian diet, and the "healthy US-style diet" aka the DASH diet, which is also based on vegetarian diets.

https://www.cnpp.usda.gov/USDAFoodPatterns

>>39833590
>>comparing eating meat to cannabilism
Comparing eating the flesh from a thinking and feeling being with eating the flesh or another, slightly less thinking and feeling being?! Well, I never!

Thing is, it's a valid question. It asks us to ponder where the distincion goes between "OK to eat" and "horrible to even imagine eating" and why that is. The reason you think it's "retarded", is because you've made a distinction between eating animals and eating people - that one is OK and the other not. But the question concerns whether they are different and how. So you've assumed the conclusion; see: petitio principii.


Also:
>When Darius was king of Persia, he summoned the Greeks who happened to be present at his court, and asked them what they would take to eat the dead bodies of their fathers. They replied that they would not do it for any money in the world. Later, in the presence of the Greeks, and through an interpreter, so that they could understand what was said, he asked some Indians of the tribe called Callatiae, who do in fact eat their parents' dead bodies, what they would take to burn them. They uttered a cry of horror and forbade him to mention such a dreadful thing. One can see by this what custom can do

>>39833781
>The other 2 diets are the mediterranean diet, which is described as a semi-vegetarian diet

mediterranean here.

1) it's not a diet, it's just common-sense eating.

2) "semi-vegetarian" is just veganspeak for normal (aka healthy), don't be retarded.

>>39833810

>veganspeak

Non-vegans call it that. Meat about once a week, meals based on whole grains and legumes.

>>39833794
>actually doubling down on comparing omnivorous behavior and cannabilism

Wew lad. Animals are not sapient, that's literally the beginning and end of why it's okay for me to eat a cow and not a person. A cow will never be sapient, while a baby will become sapient in the future.

>inb4 "hur why not eat tards then"

Morally I'd have no issue with it if you were insistent, but legally they are still classed as humans and guaranteed the same rights.

I am convinced this is a false flag. You can't seriously think this is improving anyone's opinions of veganism, can you?

>>39833822
nonvegans call that "eating", anon.

>meat once a week

red meat, maybe.

>>39833421
this guy does to veganism what SJWs did to feminism tbqh

>>39833615
>You fags come shitpost endlessly here
Fags who shitpost ought to be treated as cancer no matter the topic. But seeing as this is a vegan thread... well, I fear that it is you who is shitposting in thiS case, friend. Having vegan stuff contained to one thread seems better for all parties.

>You can't have rational discussions with inherently irrational people
So don't? I avoid such people regardless of diet, or if they happen by chance to agree with me on some other issue. Fuck 'em. But again, this doesn't disprove the basic idea; it only showcases that a lot of vegans are hypocrites who don't abide by their own supposed ethics. Again, fuck 'em.

> try to convince your cohorts to stop acting so insane at all times
Oh, believe me brother, I'm trying...

>>39833833
Nah, vegans were insane long before veganstains. He just put their insanity on youtube, whereas before it was limited to vegan blogs and uncomfortable first dates.

>>39833829

You can call anything "eating" but if you want to get descriptive, they call it semi-veg since most meals are vegetarian. I agree with you that an healthy diet is mostly vegetarian and low in meat. Anyone who can accept that should be able to see how a fully vegetarian or vegan diet would be healthy.

>>39833842
please don't call your left-wing cult "eating".

>>39833838
>posting in an off topic shitpost thread is shitposting

Wow, that's meta.

>so don't

I'm not, hence why I am simply mocking you people and not actually arguing anything.

>I'm trying

Try harder. You got multiple vegans ITT saying

>kill all meat eaters
>eating meat is like being a Nazi
>meat eating is genocide
>meat eating is identical to cannabilism

Try addressing them instead of telling me that I need to treat your delicate feelings with more care.

>>39833781
mediterranian diet is strong on fish and doesn't shy with the pork

pls don't call it semi-vegetarian, I am valenciano, nano

>>39833833

He makes anti-SJW videos

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bkMnEoLEdtI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qY4Ed1kY1ZU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6PJtrVC44fE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JDL4vHScubc

>>39833860
It's just vegans using their favorite tactic of lying to make their cult seem more mainstream. They've been trying for a long time to pretend the Mediterranean diet is practically vegan. Anybody who has actually been there knows how bullshit that is.

>>39833633
It's not all, but it's many, and yes this is wrong. But this is a seperate issue; that I'm an arsehole in how I convey an idea does not disprove the idea.

I'm not looking to redefine ethics as such, I'm just acknowledging that there is no agreed upon, universial ethics. I could give you an, say, utilitarian argument for veganism, but you'd be free to disregard utalitarianism or just my interpretation of it. You could give me, say, a "migh-makes-right" justification for eating meat, but I can just not agree with it. Savvy?

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>>39833880
you know it brah

come some time for beers and tapas
PORK tapas

>>39833853


You're taking everything out of context. Challenging status quo whereby the establishment is entirely convinced what they're doing is correct will always be met
with declarations if lunacy.

Transition from meat eating to a fully vegan society is just another stepping stone in human history.

>>39833652
>>39833689
You're both right about the bad stuff and both wrong about the good stuff (with one or two exceptions either way on both sides, at most). Fuck that's depressing.

>>39833860

>mediterranean guy thinks his 2016 mediterranean diet is the traditional mediterranean diet that's associated with healthy eating

your pizza and gyro diet isn't what we're talking about

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>>39833882
>>39833892

Like I said, stop telling normal humans to treat your feelings more delicately and start addressing the insane and very loud majority in your cult. You got lots of them in this thread, get cracking. Savvy?

>>39833882
>I'm just acknowledging that there is no agreed upon, universial ethics. I could give you an, say, utilitarian argument for veganism, but you'd be free to disregard utalitarianism or just my interpretation of it. You could give me, say, a "migh-makes-right" justification for eating meat, but I can just not agree with it.

totally arguing about what's ethics and not

maybe you are confusing it with morals? Yeah. Please, stop using logical fallacies. Your pseudoscience argument failed and you are just grasping straws with redefining shit. Pathetic and sad.

>>39833892
>Transition from meat eating to a fully vegan society is just another stepping stone in human history.

Says who? I think lab grown meat is the true next step in human diet. You're never going to convince even ten percent of humanity to stop eating an omnivorous diet, especially not with how unconvincing vegans are.

>>39833898
>vegan tard thinks he knows the diet better than people who live there

>>39833913

Why wouldn't they know better, you medicucks are all the same

>>39833746

>claims that nobody professional actually endorses vegan diets
>gets BTFO
>lol because you put effort into refuting me that shows your stupid/butthurt

nice try

>>39833698
>Morality
>In MY thread on ETHICS??!
Son, I think you should leave this thread.

>>39833827
Like I said, not a comparion (to clarify: I DO NOT think they are the same!), but an interesting question that can lead one to ponter the particulars of WHAT differs the two and WHY. It's a provocative entry point to a discussion, not a literal comparison. Like for instace, it lead you to conclude that sapience is the distinction. Which leads me to:

>Animals are not sapient,
Except they demonstrably are. That's the only scientific data relevant to this otherwise ETHICAL debate: can they, as Bentham asked, suffer? Yes. Not up to debate: answer is yes. Sorry if that triggers you?

Also, if none of them are sapient, why are you eating like only a dozen species at most? That happen to be the ones that your particular culture in your particular time and location eats? It's almost like if Herodotus had a point on custom...

>>39833852
see
>>39832691

>>39833949
nobody professional
as in not a quack that receives money for justifying retarded lifestyles

>>39833959
we already stablished that's bad science

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>>39833949
I never claimed that you dumbass.

>>39833950
I just told you what makes the two different. It's not interesting when the "question" can be answered with one sentence by a random anon. Don't act like you just posited some incredible philosophical question.

>they demonstrably are

Post proof. There is none, but I'd like to see you try. The ONLY sapient species is human. Sentience is meaningless, as every living organism displays sentience. Methinks you have no fucking idea what "sapience" actually means in the context it is being used here.

>why are you eating like only a dozen species at most

Cost, availability, taste. I actually like to eat exotic meats, but only a handful are easy to obtain so that's what I usually stick with. My goal is to try every non endangered land animal (excluding insects, way too many for that) at least once.

>>39833971
They don't care. Vegans dismiss and ignore any and all refutations to their arguments and claims. It's how they sustain their fantasy.

>>39833852
>left-wing
>to eat the way Hitler ate
Wew lad...


>>39833853
>Wow, that's meta.
It's supposed to be related to fitness. I know I'd sure like an discussion on how to make gains on a vegan diet, what sups to use, good protein sources, etc. These endless debates make it off-topic; we are share fault in that.

>just mocking
Why bother? And it doesn't bother me, m8, I can take the bantz so carry on if you wish.

>Try harder.
I've made several posts calling them out. Maybe you assumed a meat-eater was criticising them? I don't usually mention being vegan in such posts, I just point out their bs. Some are just lost causes; others are just trolls. I wonder how many aren't even vegans? I mean I troll vegans sometime pretending to be a meat-eater when they piss me off real bad...


>>39833880
Yeah never got this. I'm from the area and also like vaccatining there; not only is it NOT EVEN CLOSE to vegan, but veganism is so rare there I have trouble finding restaurants to eat in.

>>39833902
Re-read the thread. Notice all posts calling out vegans but not mentioning eating meat, or mocking/discarding veganism as such? Pointing out lies, like that it's more "healthy" or better for the environment? Mostly me, brah. I see other vegans as the main hurdle for mainstream acceptance of veganism.

>>39833911
I'm honestly not following. How is it not an ethical issue? How does it not depend on philosophical school of thought? How am I using "pseudoscience" by insisting it's not a scientific question at all and have refrained from using any science? Are you confusing my posts with someone elses? Do you think all vegans ITT are in agreement or the same person? Can't control other people's bs, buddy...

>>39833993
>It's supposed to be related to fitness

It's not in the slightest. As I said, take this bullshit to /ck/ , /sci/, or even /pol/ where the discussion would be relevant. Ethics, health, etc. aren't /fit/ related and we have boards where you can discuss those things if you feel that inclined to.

>I know I'd sure like an discussion on how to make gains on a vegan diet, what sups to use, good protein sources, etc.

Considering there is, at most, a half dozen vegans on /fit/ including yourself, you won't get that discussion. There simply aren't enough of them here to sustain it, most of them probably don't even lift, and even if they did lift, it's abundantly clear they come here to shipost and fling shit rather than discuss anything /fit/ related whatsoever. Go to vegan blogs if that's what you want and keep your offtopic shitposting off of here.


>I've made several posts calling them out

You'd do well to make it clear you're a vegan. Pretending to be omnivorous, or not stating your dietary preference (which makes them assume you're omnivorous), will make them ignore everything you say. A big part of me still doubts you ever actually pushed back against them though. Every "rational vegan" I've met 100% agreed with the insane vegan rhetoric, but pretended to be even handed and rational to more easily rope people into veganism. If you're the one exception then you'd do well to work harder at it imo.

>>39833971
>we already stablished that's bad science

No you didn't you made claims without anything to back up what you were saying

>>39833989
>Vegans dismiss and ignore any and all refutations

Saying studies are flawed are not refutations, you have to actually point out how it's flawed in order for it to be a refutation.

retard

>>39833980
You said what makes them different is that one lacks sapience. This is false. Some animals, just as some humans, lack it. But there is overwhelming proof and you're free to google that for yourself. Not gonna spend time on that, already wasted enough time on this thread, sorry.

Secondly, on what ground do you select sapience - and not sentience or ability to suffer - as the deciding factor? Sure it's not because you've already decided on the answer, and sapience is a convenient excuse? Sure it's not culture and upbringing?

> My goal is to try every non endangered land animal
At least you are logically consistent.

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>>39834110
You're mixing uup your anons breh (I was the one who told you those studies are objective shit), but he's still right. It's funny how predictable vegans are though.

>why aren't you wasting an hour showing how shitty these studies are (even though I do not understand research science well enough to comprehend why they are so bad) so I can dismiss or ignore your comment without reading it?!

>>39834075
I'm gonna head to bed but thanx for playing and being civil. You're right, gonna be more clear about being vegan myself when criticising, though I suppose they could just claim I'm lying?

If there are so few vegans here, one single thread without shilling or shit-slinging should exhaust the discussion within a day.

>>39834143

You guys are acting like saying you could refute them if you wanted to somehow shows they are bad. Until you point out 1 flaw it's all just posturing.

>>39834124
Post proof.

>on what ground do you select sapience as the deciding factor

Only humans exhibit sapience, but it's just one aspect. I didn't go into higher detail because you were not worth the effort of typing more. Higher intelligence, the ability to create higher level tools and machines, the ability to intentionally alter your environment, the list goes on and on. When a pig can build a house and start a fire, I'll start taking vegans seriously when they tell me a pig's life has as much value as mine.

>At least you are logically consistent.

I'm honestly surprised you didn't point out that I was solely focusing on land animals.

>>39834168
I could, I just will not. It's quite easy to dismantle nutrition science since it is a joke. I already told you why I am not.

If you don't believe me then I don't particularly give a shit.

>>39834160
They could claim you're lying, but it beats them dismissing you outright imo.

>If there are so few vegans here, one single thread without shilling or shit-slinging should exhaust the discussion within a day.

It's pretty obvious most of the vegans habitually samefag judging by repeated writing styles and repeated link spam. It was shown conclusively early on that some or most of them switch their IPs to give the illusion of being numerous than they are. I'd check the archives if you're curious. A handful of dedicated autists are more than enough to keep this board awash with vegan threads and posts.

>>39834227
>I could, I just will not. It's quite easy to dismantle nutrition science since it is a joke. I already told you why I am not.

Lol, no you can't.

>>39834170
Would need a definition of sapience first. If you mean tool-use and intentional alterations to local environment, animals can do that. Some even have rudimentary languages. If you mean complex tool-use and language, culture and philosophy, then no they don't have that obviously. One problem with this line of argument is, however, that some humans, including toddlers and babies, don't have those abilities either. As Bentham asked:

>Is it the faculty of reason, or, perhaps, the faculty of discourse? But a full-grown horse or dog is beyond comparison a more rational, as well as a more conversable animal, than an infant of a day, or a week, or even a month, old. But suppose the case were otherwise, what would it avail? the question is not, Can they reason? nor, Can they talk? but, Can they suffer?

So the question still remains: why pick sapience? A pig cannot build a house or shitpost of 4chan, but it can feel pain, it can feel fear and sadness. Why is it's suffering of no meaning because it can't do philosophy?

>I'm honestly surprised you didn't point out that I was solely focusing on land animals.
Too many in the sea. Realistic goals are the best.

>>39834227
Jeez, I wonder how many are straight up trolls? I also suspect vegannogains is one of them... no hope for a informative thread, then? Shit I'm off to bed, 'night faggots.

>>39823343
>Is going vegan worth it?
No
Don't jump on the meme diet bandwagon and just eat meat. Unless you have actual health problems with meat there's no reason to deprive yourself of perfectly healthy and nutritious food
>Ethical reasons
Eating meat is neither moral or immoral
>But is it expensive?
It can be. And more f an unnecessary hassle than just eating meat/having an omnivorous diet
>Do you feel healthier?
Meats healthy. No amount of feels over reals or pseudoscience will change that.
>Currently I'm 22 with lots of acne and I'm thinking of trying veganism for that?
It won't help
>http://chaosandpain.blogspot.com/2010/07/vegetarianism-and-veganism-best.html
>http://chaosandpain.blogspot.com/2010/07/vegetarianism-and-veganism-are-as.html
>http://press.endocrine.org/doi/full/10.1210/jcem.85.1.6291
>http://chaosandpain.blogspot.com/2014/10/the-simplicity-of-dieting-it-really-is.html
>https://www.anabolicmen.com/fats-and-testosterone/

>>39834386
>Unless you have actual health problems with meat there's no reason to deprive yourself of perfectly healthy and nutritious food

Except that it causes inflammation and cancer

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4299224/

>>39834278
Sapience is, in essence, the quality and higher level intelligence of being human. Being able to utilize thoughts, experience, learning, language, etc. and combine them into a sum greater than their whole. That is why man dominates every other species. That is why we are discussing philosophy instantaneously over the internet, and why pigs are in pens and even wild pigs are content to roll in mud. The proof is in the pudding, so to speak.

>If you mean tool-use and intentional alterations to local environment

Using a stick to eat termites does not equate to using an oxy acetylene to weld a car part or going into space. A beaver building a dam does not equate to the Hoover dam or the Large Hadron Collider. I was careful in my wording so you couldn't use primitive, instinctive animalistic behaviors as comparisons to what humans do. They're not even remotely comparable.

>why pick sapience

Covers a lot of what makes humans important without giving you a lot of time. I ended up doing that anyways though.

>Why is it's suffering of no meaning because it can't do philosophy

You're projecting. I did not say it's suffering has no meaning nor that we should torture it needlessly. There is, however, nothing wrong with killing it humanely and eating it, because it is of far less value as a living being. I do not want to unnecessarily harm a pig, but I will kill it and eat it to maintain human life because human life is more valuable. More than that, pigs were created by humans to be eaten; it is their sole reason for existence, and part of a tacit contract between humans and the species, though pigs can not comprehend it. Humans ensure the safe, continued survival of pigs (and other livestock), and in return we kill and eat them when they are old enough. I do think modern industrial meatpacking is horrid as a violation of this contract, but killing and eating animals is perfectly moral.

>Too many in the sea. Realistic goals are the best.

My reasoning exactly.

>>39834444
>Only humans have the quality of being human
Really dude? That's obvious...

It just proves my point that you purposefully picked the one human quality one can legitimately argue only humans have and animals don't. My point is that you began with the thought "eating humans is wrong, but animals are OK", and then ex post selected a criteria that justifies this. I'm not saying you are wrong in this; I'm saying that it's not an ethical or philosophical choice as such, but one rooted in personal preference - itself rooted in culture and norms - which is then justified with an appeal to ethics.

>I did not say it's suffering has no meaning
Excuse me jumping to conclusions. But the basic point still stands: a pig, capable of emotions and thought, is somehow not ony lesser than a human (this I would agree with) - but lesser than a human's want to eat pork. Why is it's life of so little meaning that my hunger for bacon is more important? I get if I HAD to eat it to live, if it's me or the pig, but if there's an alternative?

The assumption you make is that eating the pig is necessary to maintain human life, but that is incorrect as my own diet shows. Human life can be maintained without killing the pig.

> pigs were created by humans to be eaten
Past mistakes do not justify present ones. Blacks where brought to the American soley to be slaves and that was their only reason for being there - that does not justify present day slavery. Of course the issue of what to do with the pigs if everyone goes vegan is important, and often neglected by vegans, but that's a seperate issue.

Thanx for playing along, m8. Waited up to see your response, but gonna have to call it a night. Feel free to get the last word in and I'll read it later if the thread doesn't get gassed.

>>39834444

>Using a stick to eat termites does not equate to using an oxy acetylene to weld a car part or going into space. A beaver building a dam does not equate to the Hoover dam or the Large Hadron Collider.

Which of those did you do?

>>39834569
>the one quality that humans have that animals don't

What, intelligence? Reasoning? Higher level, sustained cooperation? Writing? Extremely complex constructions? I listed quite a few things animals do not have, and you listed quite a few similarities that we have with animals. I am not denying that a pig can feel pain, but I do think you are intentionally limiting the scope of the discussion because you dislike demonstrable, enormous differences between humans and even the most intelligent of animals. I think eating humans is wrong because humans have far more value than animals do. I am not quite sure on what your issue is here.

>a pig, capable of emotions and thought... Why is it's life of so little meaning that my hunger for bacon is more important?

First, you're reaching significantly with your word choice on pig's emotions and thoughts. Sure, they have a brain and a brain has thoughts, and all mammals have some semblance of emotion, but this isn't the binary situation you treat it as. A pig can feel fear, pain, and happiness. Sadness and other basic emotions are harder to quantify, but you could probably make a decent argument for them. But those are just the basics, and do not compare to a human's emotions.

I do not just want to maintain human life, I want humans to thrive and exceed. I am not content with mediocrity simply to spare animals as you are. Humans became what they were through killing and eating everything we could cram in our mouths, and I think that until we can develop lab grown meat that is more efficient than livestock, livestock should remain an integral part of human success.

>Past mistakes do not justify present ones

Who says creating pigs or other livestock were mistakes? They've been integral to millennia of civilization and achievement, and continue to be a backbone (lel) of every single culture's diet.

>comparing human slavery to livestock

Not gonna even entertain that desu.

Good talk m8, noot.

>>39834571
I've used welding torches, arc cutters, forges, and blacksmithing tools extensively. Not on a car, mind you, but even high order apes couldn't accomplish what I have even if they were trained their whole life. That alone makes me infinitely more valuable than any other animal on the planet.

>>39834664

>I think eating humans is wrong because humans have far more value than animals do.

So presumably you don't think it's wrong to eat humans who are mentally disabled

>>39831296
Clareance didn't get to where he is with a vegan diet, he used to eat meat.
Notice he said
>My diet has changed quite drastically
>Completey eliminated meat and animal products from my diet 9 months ago
He's genetically gifted and was already strong as fuck 9 months ago.
With his genetics he could probably still be as strong as he is now with a vegan diet but it could take more time

>>39835901
I already addressed that point in an earlier comment.

>>39836225

Where at?

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>>39831243
>>meat cucks
>Literally cucks himself out of tasty protein because he feels guilty for cattle
CANT MAKE THIS SHIT UP

>>39823343
I find it hard to reach 3000+ calories unless i eat 800-1000cal or so in nuts & seeds.

>>39833833
feminists have always been SJW-tier lunatics

If you're becoming vegan for you acne, don't. go on Accutane.

>>39823343
>Is going vegan worth it?
>Do you feel healthier?
I went from a moderate carb omnivorous diet to complete vegan cold-turkey. I've also had very good success on omnivorous diets high-carb, low-carb, adequate-protein/high-carb/moderate-fat. However after three weeks on a vegan diet I found I had far more energy, so much so I added a bunch more cardio to my routine. I'm never hungry, occasionally forget to eat which is a huge difference from before when I'd be counting down the minutes to the next meal and unsurprisingly given the extra cardio I lost ~10kg in 6 weeks.

>But is it expensive?
On beans, lentils, rice, fresh fruit and vegetables, it's actually far cheaper in Australia than meat, here even crappy cuts of beef are $18/kg.

>Ethical reasons, of course.
Meh, I don't really care about the welfare of livestock.

>Currently I'm 22 with lots of acne and I'm thinking of trying veganism for that?
Lots of people think they're eating a well rounded diet but discover with the transition to the far larger amounts of fruit and vegetables that they've actually been missing out on micronutrients and their poly- and monounsaturated fats via nuts and paying more attention to the oils they consume.

>>39832535
Yet not one of your posts non hyocritically justified stabbing animals.

Ffs, just dont needlessly kill.

Inb4 everyone in this thread is suddenly in poverty or has no access to shops, etc

>>39833453
Stop posting.
The repory never said red meat was probably carcinogenic. It said it is a classified carcinogen.

Meats like chicken are classed as probable.

Why do people love pretending they have a position on things?
Is it insecurity?

>>39837100
Feeling empathy for other sentient beings isnt what a cuck is...

>>39837100

>cucks himself into cancer because he can't control his taste buds

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Why millenials are so lazy to pronounce vegetarian and short pronouncing vegan instead? Oh shit i'm getting old and feeling like 18 all over again.

>>39832691
But are those results because of a vegan/vegetarian diet or are they because vegans/vegetarians are more health conscious than the average person and thus less likely to eat junk food?

>>39832743
> And if I went through and pointed out the study breaking methodological errors, p hacking (that still only brings a very weak correlation), or post nutritional studies showing the opposite
Maybe you should, just saying this doesn't convince me. You'll convince me by debunking studies and posting other studies.
>I just don't want multiple vegan threads spammed here daily.
Guess what, you don't own this board and vegan threads aren't against the rules.

>>39833116
>>39833406
>>39833218
>>39833453
>>39833551
Maybe you should provide arguments instead of resorting to attacking the man.

>>39834433
>Except that it causes inflammation and cancer
>this bullshit meme again
>http://www.saragottfriedmd.com/does-meat-cause-cancer-revisiting-the-meat-igf-1-and-cancer-connection/
>https://rawfoodsos.files.wordpress.com/2010/08/minger_formal_response2.pdf
>https://deniseminger.com/2010/08/03/the-china-study-a-formal-analysis-and-response/
>https://deniseminger.com/2010/07/07/the-china-study-fact-or-fallac/
>http://www.foodrenegade.com/the-china-study-discredited/
>https://deniseminger.com/the-china-study/

>>39838061
they're to different things
vegans don't eat meat and dairy
vegetarians eat dairy

>>39833323
>The study he linked is on red meat's promotion of cancer and inflammation.
What part of the proven fact that meat does not cause cancer is so hard for you to understand
>>39838170
>Maybe you should provide arguments instead of resorting to attacking the man.
Maybe the guy he's replying to should have started with arguments in the first place instead of spouting pseudoscience and lies about biology,nutrition and meat. If he had an actual argument to begin with I'd agree with you, but when you want to start spouting pseudoscience and bullshit against scientifically backed facts you deserve all of the mocking and attacks you get
>>39839377
>>39834386

>>39828566
>>39829211
>>39829271
Samefag

>>39825884
This
Going vegan because MUHHH ANIMULSSS is retarded.

Do you guys have any recommendations on how to cut carbs on vegan/vegetarian diet? I usually eat floury things like pasta and bread and it fucks my diet

>>39823343
Ethical? Just go hunting and shoot your own meat. Raise your own chickens.

Cheap asg

>>39839377
links to some book shill and a hobby nutritionist english major

>>39836240
Read the thread.

>>39837384
>more vegan Samefag

Kek.

>>39837403
How were they hypocritical?

>>39837423
No, no it isnt. The report said processed red meats were carcinogenic, and it wasn't the meat, it was the added nitrites and nitrates. You can't lie when we have access to the same material.

>>39831291
>Fish isn't really meat
Fish is an exception how?

Take your religous bullshit ouuta here. If you dont eat because of ethical reasons, eating fish is hypocritical.

>>39840334
>>39837423

You're both wrong. The report said processed meats like bacon and deli meats were definitely carcinogenic, especially due to nitrates forming carcinogenic compounds, while fresh red meats were classified as probable carcinogens, due to natural carcinogens like heme and neu5gc. Probable carcinogen means the evidence is heavily in favor of a carcinogenic effect, but the proof isn't completely solid. The thing that kept it from a definite carcinogen rating was that some observational studies weren't consistent, although mechanistic evidence determining how red meat could cause cancer was strong.

https://www.iarc.fr/en/media-centre/pr/2015/pdfs/pr240_E.pdf

>>39836134
>With his genetics he could probably still be as strong as he is now with a vegan diet but it could take more time

citation needed

>>39839517
>two people agree on something, must be the same person faking it
Why?

>>39840220
That validly debunk the bullshit meat causes cancer meme

>>39841918
>>39839377

This thread should have ended this linkspam

>>39789948

>>39841984
>linkspam
>Actual science that debunks my memes is linkspam

>>39842067

Yes, your memes were debunked by actual science

>>39842074
>Yes, your memes were debunked by actual science
>This level of projection

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>>39841833
>>39841833
You have no idea what you're talking about. The nitrates and nitrites become carcinogenic when added to red meat, it's not the meat itself. Beyond that, the method of cooking is what is suspected to give normal red meat it s very weak and as of yet unproven correlation to cancer, as charring or cooking it at high temperature causes carbonization and the formation of carcinogens. The same happens with plant foods as well, the effect is not unique to meat.

Again, vegan fags using out of context reports. "Probably carcinogenic includes many things, inluding radio waves and cellphones. You have a cellphone, and a car radio, not to mention all those near you utilizing both at all times. You focus on meat to try to make it seem evil, but really it's just a smokescreen to get people to buy into your cult and stop eating the poor widdle amimuls. Thankfully most people aren't gullible enough to believe you.

>Probable carcinogen means the evidence is heavily in favor of a carcinogenic effect, but the proof isn't completely solid

Kek. There has never been causation proven, and the correlation is weak and only arises after p-hacking and methodological errors. Face it faggot, you have nothing and you understand even less.

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>>39842611
Other IARC Group 2A probable carcinogens:

>High-temperature frying, emissions from

Hope you don't like cooking.

>Household combustion of biomass fuel (primarily wood), indoor emissions from

Hope you don't have a biomass stove.

>Mate, hot (more than 65℃)

Hope you don't drink mate.

>Very hot beverages (more than 65℃)

Hope you don't like tea, coffee, hot chocolate, hot soup, etc.

As for processed meat, the carcinogenic effect is from nitrates and nitrites added to red meat, as I said before. They react with the amino compound and form n-nitrosamines, which are probably carcinogenic. It's simple enough to get cured meat without nitrates or nitrates (though more expensive typically), or you can cure your meat yourself like I do, it's not too hard.

Funny how vegans aren't on the warpath against coffee shops, huh? It's almost like they don't actually give a single fuck about people's health and just use anything and everything, regardless of truth or validity, to con people into thinking their cult is a rational path in life. Fuck off you dumb cunt, you have zero authority to speak on this subject.

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>>39842611

>You have no idea what you're talking about. The nitrates and nitrites become carcinogenic when added to red meat

I never said otherwise. Processed meat is a definite carcinogen because, in the processing of the meat, nitrates are added, which react with the meat and form carcinogenic nitrosamines. This is in addition to other cancer-causing factors in red meat.

>Beyond that, the method of cooking is what is suspected to give normal red meat it s very weak and as of yet unproven correlation to cancer, as charring or cooking it at high temperature causes carbonization and the formation of carcinogens

As well as heme, which helps explain the strong connection between red meat and cancer.

>>39778011

"Proof" only exists in mathematics. You don't need 100% infallible proof of something to be able to make an educated decision. You might as well take up smoking because there's no solid proof that it causes lung cancer either, only strong evidence.

>>39842720

> It's simple enough to get cured meat without nitrates or nitrates (though more expensive typically), or you can cure your meat yourself like I do, it's not too hard.

When you buy these "nitrate-free" meats, they just swap sodium nitrate for nitrate-containing celery powder, which has the same effect.

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>>39842720
Group 2B possible Carcinogens:

>Caffeic acid

Found in ALL plants as an important part of synthesizing lignin. Plants and plant derivatives with more substantial amounts include: coffee, argan oil, thyme, sage, spearmint, sunflower seeds, red wine, yerba mate (double cancer!), apricots, and others.

>Foreign bodies, implanted in tissues

Hope you never need an implant of any kind!

>Magnetic fields (extremely low frequency)

I assume you know nothing of physics, but all electrical currents create magnetic fields. Better toss all them electronics.

>Radiofrequency electromagnetic fields, such as, but not limited to, those associated with wireless phones

Like I said, better toss them cellphones. After all, all vegans are after is optimal health right? It's not at all just a smokescreen to trick people into joining your cult out of fear.

>Aloe vera, whole leaf extract

Better stop using that on sunburns, you don't want cancer.

>Ginkgo biloba extract

Hope you don't like your hippie tinctures, veganfags.

>Engine exhaust, gasoline
>gasoline

Sell that car right now!

>Carrageenan

"They are widely used in the food industry, for their gelling, thickening, and stabilizing properties" at this point I think just not eating is the best tactic to not getting cancer.

>Pickled vegetables

I love pickled veggies myself, as I am sure many vegans do. Better toss them in the garbage with the rest.

>Talc-based body powders

Sorry babies and all with rashes and chafing, you'll have to suffer silently as talc gives you cancer.

Wew lad, you poor vegans are going to have to give up so much shit? Let's see: all plants, all electronics, cars, even hot beverages. I hope you guys can photosynthesize. Do plants get cancer?

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>>39842804
>This is in addition to other cancer-causing factors in red meat.

None of which have been proven causatively, still have very weak correlation, and only supposedly increase one specific type of cancer. Wow, I am terrified of my steaks now.

>As well as heme, which helps explain the strong connection between red meat and cancer
>strong

kek

I don't want infallible proof, I want actual fucking causation. Like I said, in any other real scientific field the "evidence" you are trying to push as fact would get you laughed out of the fucking room. It's even worse that you are on a vendetta against meat while having no problem using and interacting with many, many other types of carcinogens on a daily basis. You don't give a fuck about health, nor do you give a fuck about cancer. All you want to do is misrepresent reality to trick people into joining your cult for the poor widdle amimuls.

>>39842820
Huh. Well regardless, I still make my own so it doesn't matter to me personally.

>tfw going to make some spicy salami this weekend

Can't wait.

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>>39842862
So, in conclusion, vegans like you do not give a single fuck about health or about cancer. All you care about is tricking people into joining your cult. The only issue is, all of your lies, half truths, and out of context quotes fall apart after five minutes of cursory scrutiny by a man in his underwear online. Some philosophy.

>>39842908

>very weak correlation, no proof

Apparently you're not convinced, but the world's top specialists in cancer research think there is a clear link and recommend cutting down on or avoiding red meat, as do the world's top specialists in heart disease. Posting pepes and trying to downplay the unhealthiness of a food you don't want to stop eating isn't convincing.

>I want actual causation

>>39842804

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>>39842930
>still trying to push the anti meat agenda without addressing the hilariously obvious inconsistencies in your own arguments and ideologies

Kek. Oh well, I'll save the stuff I wrote and post it in future vegan threads as an easy way to show /fit/ what a bunch of lying morons vegans are.

>unhealthiness of the food

Kek, you didn't even read the comments, did you? Stay willfully ignorant if you like, but I won't let you trick anyone else.

>>39839395
Vegetarian(or vegan for millenials)means not consuming anything that is animal including dairy.You need a nutrition lesson.

>>39842930
>>I want actual causation
>>>39842804

Kek, you call that causation? Muh jpegs are /pol/ territory, and it's even funnier because even the sources you keep using an appeal to authority for do not consider that sufficient causative evidence. Next you're going to be posting that stupid frugivore image.

>>39843037

You're thinking of this as a vegan vs. meat-eater issue for some reason, rather than as a scientific one. The world's top scientists-- most of whom eat meat, have looked at the evidence and decided, without any vegan influence, that red meat likely causes cancer, and contributes to heart disease. Your argument is that YOU aren't convinced, as if anything could honestly convince you when you're so personally invested in red meat.

> Oh well, I'll save the stuff I wrote

Likewise. I think the only person who would read this conversation and think you made a good argument is you. I did that with this guy, who essentially admitted that he's not open to changing his mind in view of any evidence, because he's already sure he's right >>39841984

I hope you aren't that guy.

>>39843129
>scientific one

Again, trying to obfuscate your real intent. If you cared about "science" and cancer risk, why have a laptop? Why eat plants high in cafeic acid? Why do you drive? You faggots are so blatantly full of shit by trying to pretend like you give a fuck about health or science when you don't. This is the worst kind of "science" cherry picking studies, cooking the data, omitting and outright lying about information, and more, all with the intent of achieving a desired conclusion; that you shouldn't eat meat. You're as scientific as faith healing.

>vegan thinks the only guy who made a good argument is another vegan posting the same propaganda that he agrees with

What a shocker.

>>39843219

>obfuscate your real intent

You say this while making the exact argument the meat industry made when the WHO report came out. You don't care what science suggests, you want to eat whatever diet you enjoy eating and pretend that it's perfect in every way, rather than base your diet on what's likely to be healthy or not. I don't use a laptop, I don't drive a car, and I've never heard of a link between caffeic acid and cancer but if the WHO among several cancer research groups said that certain plants high in caffeic acid were carcinogenic, I'd think twice about eating them. Your tu quoque bullshit is not a convincing argument for eating red meat. Notice we're talking specifically about red meat and its health effects.

>>39823343
Your acne comes from shit genetics, don't blame food for it

>>39843342
>you want to eat whatever diet you enjoy eating and pretend that it's perfect in every way

Kek, nice projecting. I realize that there may be a small increase in the risk of colorectal cancer from eating red meat. However, I also recognize that A) tons of shit possibly causes cancer, and red meat is hardly the sole thing, B) the chances of colorectal cancer are remarkably slim to begin with, and C) all of the shit studies always examine SAD, not a healthy omnivorous diet. I am saying that you veganfags are going to do a lot better to convince me that meat is going to rape my mother and kill my dog, because as of now all you have convinced me of is that a lot of shit possible causes cancer.

That is why I pointed out how retarded it is to point out that red meat has been classed a possible carcinogen. Many things lie in that category, and I am not going to stop driving, stop using electricity or electronics, or stop drinking tea. Why would I pick red meat, out of all the possible carcinogens, and stop that? Vegans claim that you don't "need" meat to live, but I do not "need" tea, cars, or electricity to live either. I, however, recognize that they substantially improve my quality of life so I refuse to give them up just to possibly extend my life by an indeterminant small amount of time.

>>39843342
>I don't use a laptop

It's all electronics. Desktops, cell phones, you name it. Electricity itself is possibly carcinogenic due to generating magnetic fields. Or are you magically posting on 4chan through your aligned chakras?

> I don't drive a car

But you still need transport, do you not? Trains, busses, planes, other people's cars. Short of you living entirely off the grid, you're still being exposed to carcinogens.

>I've never heard of a link between caffeic acid and cancer

Just because you haven't heard of it doesn't mean it doesn't exist; willful ignorance doesn't change reality. Check the IARC lists yourself if you don't believe me with your nonexistent computer.

>we're talking specifically about red meat

And that is my point exactly. You focus on the infinitesimally small and unproven carcinogenic effects of red meat and blow it entirely out of proportion to scare people into not eating it under the guise of "caring" about their health. Meanwhile you fags are fine with coffee, spices, and numerous other substances with similarly "proven" carcinogenic effects because they are not meat. You don't give a fuck about cancer or health, you just don't want people to eat meat.

>>39832743
Go on then :^)

Well I learned something from this thread: I hate vegans and I hate faggots who are triggered by vegans to the point of waisting their time in this thread, and I hate the fact that most "vegans" ITT are just trolling and making their own side seem like shit. I mean for the love of Christ on the cross, you can't just call meat-eaters cucks and say they deserve to die, you faggots, that's not exactly helping the cause.

t. vegan

>>39842908
>I don't want infallible proof
It's not even infallible. And it can barely be called proof

>>39844475
>I hate vegans and I hate faggots who are triggered by vegans to the point of waisting their time in this thread
I'm sure they both hate you too, especially for making this faggot ass post
> that's not exactly helping the cause.
And neither are you