I'm natty, but I'm sick of hearing guys talk about

>>38763695
this

there's literally nothing wrong with not being natty from a moral standpoint, unless you're competeing against actual natty people

As a dude who just recently lost his natty card, thank you. Spot on.

>>38763695
that's fair enough; and yet there's just going to be a huge fuckoff thread arguing about it
every day

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Is this pasta? Or are you just this buttmad about people not wanting to cheat themselves out of a lifelong hobby?

Go ahead loser. Get on the train, but keep in mind the ticket is expensive, it's hurts to jump out of the carriage, and the breeze will cost you your hair.

>>38763695
Agreed I'm natty but I'm all for gear if someone wants to take it to that next level or just achieve there goal body faster

I'm just too big of a pussy to hop on but I don't think it's "cheating" or an unfair advantage it's just a part of the sport

Natties who think they are better than people on gear are almost as bad as the vegan fags

I also just want to see how far i can push my body while staying natural, but yea steroids are just a part of the game and there not going anywhere

How many natty guys that hate on gear here do you think would hop on if they just had a source? If some Zyzz lookin guy walked up in a gym and offered to sell to him, I bet a fair amount would take him up on it.

As long as pure, unadulterated autism didn't get in the way.

>>38763729

Ok, so if you want to make sure you get the full/complete lifting experience, lay off the creatine. You want to get those extra reps the "legit" way. Aminos? Those are for cheaters who want to take the easy way out of muscle recovery. Pre-workout? Motivation is all you need! Protein powder? Hell no, man. That shit is for people who don't want to take the time to create real gains from endless pounds of chicken breast.

Why drive a car to work when you're just cheating yourself out of the joy and health benefits of running there everyday?

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>>38763766

>OP compares over the counter non-pharmaceutical tier products designed to increase or supplement natural processes with a pharmaceutical tier product designed to amplify beyond natural levels

No, you're just taking an easier way out. I might not ever get as big or as strong as you while you're on the gear but the second you stop, the SECOND you stop dosing you're going to be like me...maybe even less. You're stuck now, you're fucked.

>>38763695
>If you think the guys on gear aren't busting their ass in the gym just as hard as you

You can literally make gains on test while sitting on your ass watching TV.

>Don't get upset

You're the one making a thread bitching about it, honey.

>>38763849

Protein synthesis and muscle growth are natural processes that are "increased"/"supplemented" by the presence of exogenous testosterone. You realize that you just reiterated the same statement using slightly different wording, right? If you look up the word "amplify," one of its synonyms is literally "increase." Whether it's pharmaceutical-grade or not makes no difference. Your body gets creatine naturally when you eat a steak, yet you're mixing up your 5 grams in your pre-workout drink so that you can amplify your creatine intake beyond natural levels. If they banned creatine tomorrow, I guess the majority of lifters would be /fraud/s, right?

>>38763951

Is that based on your previous experience of sitting on your ass and watching TV while getting ripped on test? Show me the pics of the guy who did nothing but eat Doritos and watch Game of Thrones during his cycle and ended up as anything but a slightly more bloated/heavier version of himself. Go ahead, I'll wait.

>>38764001

You don't need to take AI's and PCT after your Animal Pak stack "cycle" or whatever, nor do you need to "slowly come off" creatine.

Your argument is m00t and is a bad argument at that, steroids were designed to manufacture a genetically unattainable product with what was available presently. It is also unsustainable without constant intervention, when in reality I can come off those same supplements and not lose any progress what so ever.

Natties are so fucking arrogant it's unbelievable.

Remember those fags that used to come up to you and knock cigarettes out of your hands because they saw you smoking and it was bad for you? They are literally the straight edge faggots of fitness.

I enjoy bullying them at the gym so much.

I want to hop on gear but still < 25 yrs old
been training for years now w strict diet
feelsbadman.jpg

>>38763695
Well you're on test, and since you are you are technically more of a man, and since you're more of a man, you can't be wrong. Real men are never wrong. Thanks for the heads up, man.

>>38764077

>Roid Rage

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>>38764043
Here you are, tard.

>>38764063

This is a flawed comparison, because you can't compare loss of gains that are already above your body's natural potential to the maintenance of gains at or below your body's natural potential. A guy who uses gear to REACH his natural limit won't lose those gains, just like you won't lose yours. There's no point in comparing what happens to gains made ABOVE your natural limit because you'll never make them without gear. Are you saying that if protein powder or creatine gave you the potential to surpass your body's natural limits for muscle growth, you'd refuse to take them, based on principle?

>>38763695
Loser

I love how all I'm saying is that natties should be more tolerant of those who choose to use gear, and yet the natties are getting so angry about it anyway. I'm sorry that using gear gives bigger and faster gains than not using it, but that's the way it is. The vast majority of fitness celebrities and sports figures use gear, because it gives them the results they desire. I just don't understand why my fellow natties have to bitterly yell "that cheater's on gear" every time they see a jacked guy, like it's some terrible thing that he should be ashamed of...

>>38764099

Like I said, I don't use gear, but I'm totally fine with people who do. I don't think any less of them, and I think they should be proud of their gains.

>>38763766

>unironically comparing creatine to steroids

Yeah nattys take supplements but it's a little bit different than completely changing your hormone levels.

There have been studied done that show that taking steroids and not lifting is more effective at building muscle than lifting natty.

Only beta cucks give a shit about what another man shoots into his butt but don't act like steroids add <1% to your gains. Training enhanced is like playing an entirely different game compared with training natty.

>t. fake natty gearhead

>>38764182

A guy who uses gear to reach his natural limit will lose his ability to maintain that level which would have been his natural limit after he stops roiding.

It's not a flawed comparison, it's a known fact once you come off the juice you will lose gains in some way. Be it physical, mental, strength, or all of the above you are guaranteed to be unable to maintain that level of performance once completely off or coming off of the juice.

That is my only argument, I personally don't care as long as people realize you aren't achieving something with "hard work and focus" and it's only giving you a minor boost. It is a cold hard pharmaceutical designed to create unbelievable results miracle drug with huge downsides in terms of adverse side affects and long term sustainability in the human body.

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>>38764344
>I just don't understand why my fellow natties have to bitterly yell "that cheater's on gear" every time they see a jacked guy, like it's some terrible thing that he should be ashamed of
Superiority complex

>>38764344
Okay, well I just figured you might be on test as OP. But I still have a point, I feel like once you are on test you become a bit more arrogant and refute anything that isn't what you agree with, simply because you become a dominance seeking male in a primal sense. That being said I dont use test so this is merely speculation.

>>38763695
This, actually makes sense.

Also since we're having the thread and some egotist is doing mental gymnastics as to not come to the realization that he might not be hot shit and it's actually mostly the roids...

Imagine girls talking about how small your balls are, your junk is probably not really doing that well and tbqh myself I'm already pretty good in the department so why would I want to endanger that.

Long term you're putting your children or future children at risk, and once you come off the fairy tale ends. Imagine if after all those years of slaying pussy or whatever and taking it easy you have your wifey or whatever and in comes Chad McNatty who at 34 or whatever finally hit a peak and all those years of work paid off and he fucks your wifey.

now what

If i had a source and the side effects weren't too bad i would turn in my natty card. It is cheating though because you gain muscle even if u don't exercise

>>38764166
rekt

>>38764553
>>38764553

it's 2016, you can get some btc and buy gear online in like 15 minutes
and the sides aren't bad if you don't b&c or pin crazy doses. I'm on my second cycle, no hair loss (great hair genes tho, dad is late 50s, still has 100% coverage and almost no grey), no nip problems. Only noticeable sides are I think about sex maybe 80% of the day, and I get hangry kinda easy.

Heart sides sound terrifying. Can't help but wonder how much it could shave off your life. Not necessarily on crazy elite BB doses but something more like amateur long term usage.

>>38763695
This is bait. Gear has sides that can kill you or ruin your chances to have kids, depending on how much gear you take. By your logic you should take as much gear as you can inject because any less is hypocritical.

>inb4 but taking less gear has manageable side effects

Normal, healthy non insecure people want zero side effects. If lifting negatively affects the rest of your life in any way shape or form you're retarded and not going to make it.

>>38763695

First of all you sound like the insecure one.

2nd 99% of the kids who do take gear, just don't need it.

It's a " I want it now" mentality.

>>38764459
You're a piece of shit

>>38763849
Not true. Myonuclei and satellite cell gains are more-or-less permanent. Same as increased neuromotor efficiency.

There are people who walk around off gear 28+ FFMI.

>>38764043

there are actually studies that have been done on this. steroids while doing nothing gained more lean body mass and same amount of strength as natty training:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8637535

more detailed and follow up studies done on the subject:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12067856
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8637535

>>38764480

those calves aren't half bad

>>38764628
Do you buy from the d33pw3b or just saying it's possible? It's my only option right now, I don't know anyone who sells

>>38765957
reddit/steroid source talk

You're not allowed to discuss sources on /fit/

>>38764459
>
A guy who uses gear to reach his natural limit will lose his ability to maintain that level which would have been his natural limit after he stops roiding.

....can you explain why?

>>38766097
That's a meme.

The reason people lose gains after they quit roids is because their natural test levels are shut down for a while. With good training there's no reason they can't get back to that level. There's also no such thing as a natural limit unless you use the sum to infinity, but humans don't live for an infinite amount of time. Gains just slow down and keep slowing down. They never stop.

>>38766121
>tfw did test e at 17
helped for football but probably fucked up my hormones longterm , I did a pct but didn't bother doing a blood test.

>>38766395
A while could be weeks to months, not years. You're most likely better off.

>>38766121

^

There is no such thing as a "natty limit." It just becomes harder and harder to gain muscle (and slower too). There is no magical limit at which your gainz just completely stop no matter what you do.

Following a proper PCT protocol while keeping up good diet and training will mitigate loss of gains. You will inevitably lose some of the gains from your cycle, but to say you will lose all of them is ridiculous. You CAN lose all of them if you fuck your PCT up, stop training, stop eating well, etc.

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>>38764459
Protip: Once you come off life you will loose everything, whether it be physical, mental, strength.

What you should be doing is 'gearing' to enhanced yourself whilst maintaining acceptable health markers.

If your aim is to be a centurion, then don't use gear, avoid public transport, or any kind of transport. Just sit inside your house and have you're food mailed to you, oh wait going to mail box is too dangerous as well and may negatively effect life expectancy.

Use gear, don't go full retard.

>>38763729
>life long hobby
>implying you haven't made 90% of your lifetime gains in the first 3 or 4 years
you played yourself

>>38763695
>I have similar bodybuilding goals but I used a shortcut.
>By the way you're not allowed to imply you had to work harder for your gains because it hurts my feelings :^)

Huh, I guess I am the real asshole here

>>38766792

i think OP's message here is, why do u even care? sounds like u're the butthurt one here.

>>38766858
well I did make this thread after all

>>38763695
Natty here; agreed.
I think we can blame normies who don't do their homework on this. They're convinced that steroids somehow generate muscle with no work. One guy was even on /fit/ asking why we bothered lifting if we could get the same results from just sitting at home and roiding. Kek.

Anyway, the main issue I have with roiders is when they lie about it. Especially when they lie to compete against nattys. That's just cheating. Also when roiders feel like their advice is excellent for natties, and use their results as proof. You'd be suprised by how many roiders I've met who have totally lost touch with what's actually possible for us.


But generally, I don't really mind roiders bar those 2 really specific situations. I don't see why anybody really cares.

>>38767075

Steroids actually can generate muscle with no work. Obviously its nowhere near what you'd get with training + gear, but you can pin 500mg/wk of test, sit on your arse and outgrow most natural trainees at least temporarily.

>>38767094
Srrs? Mind posting sources? I just can't help remembering that reddit dude who didn't exercise, but pinned, and ended up looking like a legitimate raisin. I can't find images, but it was gross.

>>38767103
Source has already posted in the thread faggot.

>>38767103

Serious. The growth rate obviously isn't going to be permanent (you'll top out after a while, after which you'd have to either start actually exercising or up the dose) but its significant to start with. I'll try and dig up the actual original study, which IIRC was comparing no gear/no exercise, 600/wk without exercise, 600 with exercise and exercise with no gear but I've also seen it once or twice personally with injured lifters pushing up their usage to compensate. Wouldn't recommend it but it is technically possible. Same basic reason why even sedentary post-puberty teenagers carry more muscle than they did pre-puberty.

That guy wasn't roiding, he was running DNP (might've been t3, actually - either way, it was one of the nastier cutting agents) with no anabolics, exercise or muscle base to fall back on. The end result wasn't pretty.

>>38767132
>>38764166 doesn't count. It's an image by itself with nothing that explains where those graphs came from. There's a pretty convincing image floating around that says 7 reps gives no gains. I don't trust it by itself.

>>38767151
Cheers man. I'd appreciate the study.

And shit, I must be remembering wrong. It was a while. Thanks for the correction. But yeah, it was definitely not pretty.

>>38767190

I'm 99% sure that image is from the actual study. It doesn't tell the entire story (it's just measuring fat-free mass rather than dry muscle mass, which with test bloat is going to skew things somewhat) and it's only a relatively short study but it's more or less the same end result.

>>38767227
Ah, I getcha. So is what I'm understanding that basically being a natty is horrible, and I'm gonna be screwed when compared to roiders?

>>38764411

>There have been studied done that show that taking steroids and not lifting is more effective at building muscle than lifting natty.

Show me a single one.

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>>38763849
Do you look like me natty?
I expect to get better than this.
Doubt I'll lose all I gain if my PCT goes well, and if I revert back to my natty form I'll still be better than a lot of /fit/.

>>38767439
>revert back to my natty form

Haha, there's no going back fraud

>>38767460
JUST ONE CYCLE

Seriously.
I'm testing the waters.

If post PCT I'm no better than in that picture why would I bother?

Some say I'd get addicted to the high of enhanced lifting, but I'm a cheap fuck.

If it's all for naught I'll just mark it down as another experience.

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>>38767495
>JUST ONE CYCLE

kek

I'll keep an eye out for you asking for advice on your Deca/Dbol/Test cycle on /fraud/ in about 8 months.

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>>38767507
Oh well.
At least I'm old.
Can't imagine people who get into this from their early 20s and never stop.

>>38767439
>I injected steroids and growth hormones into my body to look like this
kek nigga thats not even the natty limit. I don't care if you do roids or not but posting that pic like it's proving a point is ridiculous.

>>38767439
If you've passed your natty limit on cycle, you will revert back to that natty limit if you come off. Blast & Cruise is the way my brother.

>>38767554
But anon, that is me natty.
I'll admit I could push on 5 more years and fill out the arms and chest, but I've worked pretty hard these last 4 years and I'm nearly 32 now.

Turned in natty card less than a week ago.

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>>38767559
Figure my arms, legs and chest aren't at the natty limit.

Here are my precycle measurements.

Like say my arms explode to 23 inches, I figure they wouldn't deflate all the way back down to 16 since a lot of natties have 18-20.

>>38763695
>too stupid to understand the difference between supplements and gear
>doesn't acknowledge that a huge amount of roiders lie, and thus cheat by letting people compare them to nattys when the only fair comparison is with other roiders
You suck.

Also, whats with all the roid shilling lately. Is some new company trying to get into the market or something?

>>38767385
ok? lmao is that supposed to be a retort?
http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJM199607043350101#t=articleResults

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I don't mind people using whatever they want
Shit like pic related does bother me though
As long as you're honest, you're ok in my book

>>38767663
Not the guy who asked for it, but keep in mind compliance with diet and exercise was done mostly just by asking the guys if they were sticking to the plan (trusting them to eat the assigned diet, trusting not to lift, etc).

That's not to say this should be disregarded. I'm glad you took the time to post it though, and would encourage you and others to do so in the future.

>>38763695

like many have said already, i'm all for steroids, might even use it myself one day

pisses me off when people who used roids claim to be natty though

>>38763695
>pinning is going the extra mile
>wanting to fuck your organs in later life
>paying more than a gym fee for your vanity
>injecting yourself with unsourceable chemicals
>implying half the roiding monkeys know what its actually doing, or proper "safe" dosage
>risking infection from needles

Go ahead

>>38767439
>muh post cycle treatment

Hahaha, enjoy becoming a skelly with gyno

>>38767439
Shit, if that's you natty, mirin'

How long have you been training, anon? THis is basically the natty goal body.

>>38767936
You're retarded.

>>38768033
4 years now.
3 in picture.
Strength training then 6 day volume for cut.

>Not reaching the natty limit
>Not gazing into the fraud abyss
>Not turning your back to it
>NOT ASCENDING PAST THE NATTY LIMIT THROUGH PURE FORCE OF WILL
>NOT BECOMING A UNIVERSAL SHAMAN, FOCUSING NOT ONLY ON BODY GAINS BUT ALSO SPIRITUAL AND MENTAL GAINS
>NOT BECOMING THE NATTY ZYZLAI LAMA


R U GUYS FUKEN SRS

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Would steroids help me lose a few kilos?

>>38768133
I honestly hate you.

>>38768137
Why?

>>38768142
You know why.

>>38767888
basically this

If i ask you your running mile time and you keep telling me your time but you were on a bicycle I am going to assume you're retarded for not being able to tell the difference. Do roids, but you have to accept you can't keep comparing to nattys

>>38768150
Because I overeat a little?

>>38768155
Because you ask if steroids would help you lose weight.

Know what'd help you lose weight? Fork put-downs. Lifting weights. Running. Taking a knife and carving out the fat.

Always easy way out with you people, goddamn.

>>38765377
Sure just look at all those actors that baloon up 1 month sfter being totally shredded on film

>>38768170
I don't like to finish eating until I feel full

>>38768193
Why are you rusing me like this

>>38768213
I think I just need better eating choices. Food choices

>>38767722
Yeah this. I mean, if someone straight up asks a professional bodybuilder/athlete/actor if they're natty of course they have to say yes even though everyone knows they're lying.

But when people actually go out of their way to talk about being natty when they clearly aren't, that's just silly.

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>muh hurd wurk meme

One of my favorites.
I take zero supplements and only drink coffee. I'll give props to only one gear monkey at my gym and that's because I can tell he started natty and worked hard. Usually Asians tend to be disciplined like that.

Now your average gym gear using juice head is a different story. Started with a bro routine, got frustrated and immediately jumped on gear. Their lack of total development is hysterical. Their routines just as bad. And yet, all they have to do is get in the car and open the door. Make sure they don't party too hard over the weekend and eat enough protein. Wow, all that hard work.

There are zero supps as effective and a sure guarantee as test. That's why people take it in the first place. Unless you are a total retarded fuck up to begin with, you're guaranteed to make significant gains.
Been to many gyms. Known many juice heads, both pros and your tinder insecure faggot who has zero game. Only ones I feel justified to juice are pro wrestlers and athletes (no not baseball and golf fags).

It's a shame so many intelligent trips that use gear are gone from here. They'd laugh at stupid ass threads like this

>>38767385

Didn't read through the whole thread, did you?

>there are actually studies that have been done on this. steroids while doing nothing gained more lean body mass and same amount of strength as natty training:
>http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8637535
>more detailed and follow up studies done on the subject:
>http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12067856
>http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8637535

>>38763729
>ticket is expensive

40 bucks a month is terrible money

>hurts to jump out

Maybe a little, but that's just what you need accept. If you're running a moderate cycle you can keep a lot of what you got

>cost you your hair

Depends on stack/cycle/duration/individual properties/etc

There's lots, lots of people on social media and in every day life who do basic long-esther testcycles/cruises, for different reasons and goals., and they don't all look like they roid or even want to look like it