Why does this man have such a cult following? Is it just because

he is the be all end of all lifting for beginners in their first 3 months of training


the majority of people who actually come on here are newbie lifters, only pathetic kissless virgins like myself who are seasoned lifters still bother coming on here, everyone else stops coming on, and people are replaced by other noobies.

>>38435766
He paid for the same marketers that were being used by crossfit.

what's rip's mbti? i'm thinking ESTJ

In a sea of complex meme programs from bodybuilding.com that doesn't work he came up with a simple beginner program that actually works. It's that easy.

And who doesn't like his methods? Some people perhaps have a thing to say about how he teaches the squat but nobody serious has anything against a beginner basing his program on the big three with 3x5 while eating to gain.

>>38435766
It's like a mental illness. Or magic. He's as crazy as a stoat, but... once they've been around him for a while, people start seeing the world the way he does. All big and simple. And they want to be part of it.

>>38435766
His advice gives fags the idea that they found the "secret" that those stupid gym bros don't know

>>38435802
Scooby raved a bit about his calorie intake recommendations being way too high and that it'd only make you fat.

http://scoobysworkshop.com/starting-strength-by-mark-rippetoe/

>>38435844
well to be fair rip implied in SS that 7000 calories daily is plausible.

i'm all for dirty bulking but 7k what the fuck.

Because his company offers the best information available for strength training.

>>38435844
>>38435869

That was strictly for underweight teenagers who call themselves "hardgainers" to get teach them how to eat. He didn't prescribe that for regular people and advised a deficit for very overweight people.

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>>38435766
He has a "no bullshit" approach that resonates with noobs. The problem is that, with time, you begin to understand that everything he says is in fact bullshit.

>>38435945
Name a better beginner program flam.

>>38435945
>do compounds a few times a week
>bullshit
okay

>>38435963
Reg Park beginner program.
It hits every muscle in the body and is focused on strength, strength endurance and mass.

>>38435995
They're very similar you know, with the exception that SS skips the bodybuilding fluff exercises. You're still doing sets of five three times a week with squats every time and switching between bench press and standing press.

>>38435929
It was retarded for anyone who isn't 5 metres tall. Rippletits knows nothing about anything, he just regurgitated the work of people like reg park then took away half of the lifts like wrist curls and calf raises.

>>38435945
>shittest kid in whole year at literally every sport, overweight, little to no guidance on fitness or health
>eventually say fuck this and get gym membership
>tooled around in gym taking advice from fuckwitted "personal trainers"
>through simply adding weight every once in a while make minimal progress
>eventually get hold of SS via a recommendation from a regular
>follow it
>squat goes from 90kg to 160kg for repa in literally 2 months
>permastalled OHP and bench also start making progress
>actually learn how to clean
>deadlift also continues to improve
>all the nagging pains I'd developed since I started lifting vanish

Yeah man this is bullshit. I'd better go back to doing 3 sets to failure on the fucking pec deck, amirite?

SS is pretty bad. Obviously better than nothing.
But otherwise terrible exercise selection, sub-optimal progression, volume to low, intensity to high.
Results are also not great if you look at the whole population and not just the top 1% of transformation posts of people who would have made it anyway.
Also it's not that much fun and GOMAD is just retarded.

>>38436044
>Taking out wrist curls
At least he did that

>>38436068
>Limp wristed faggot detected

>>38436074
>Thinking that jacking off with some pussy weight doing wrist curls is better for wrist and grip gains over holding heavy ass weight for extended amounts of time
Not going to make it bitch

the thing with rip is that despite all the memeing he really, really knows his shit. the fitness world is full of people who tell you to do this and that, but then you do it and nothing ever works they way they claim. pretty much every single time I've done something rip has suggested it has worked out almost exactly like he said.

also, SS is the most comprehensive description of form on the basic barbell exercises. nothing else comes close.

His squat morning form is retarded.

>>38436044
If you go read some of his posts on his q and a forum, you'd learn that he arrived at SS almost by a process of elimination.

SS is more or less an updated version of Bill Starr's program as outlined in The Strongest Shall Survive. Starr taught Rip based on what had worked for him and his friends when he was an Olympic lifter and a powerlifter. Rip refined the method by teaching it to members of the general public over a very long period of time, which nobody else seems to have done in quite the same way (or if they have, they've never publicised it.)

Reg Park's method is so similar to Rip's (and Starr's) because he was more or less self taught (as were Starr, Suggs, etc), and all the really committed self-taught lifters from that period arrived at very similar programs for similar levels of training advancement because they learnt that that was what worked via experimentation.

Rip just leaves out the accessories because they honestly don't make much of a difference to a complete beginner's overall progress.

>>38436141
what's retarded about it?

The program isn't bad for beginners but Rippetoe himself is a meme.

If I was coaching anyone, especially a beginner I would want them taking lots of reps

So i'd just flip it from 3x5 to 5x3 with the same weight. Get more chances to set up and less reps = less form break down.

I'd also take out the power cleans and back extensions.

There's zero upper back work on the template I'm looking in so that would have to be added in. If you're benching without rowing you're going to have a bad time.

I'd worry less about hitting chins all the time and focus on rotating between chins, db rows, and t-bar rows.

I'm also not a big fan of the M-W-F split. I think it's too much time in one session and fatigue sets quicker than if you were to break it up over 6 days.

It all depends on your life schedule though and for an absolute beginner I don't think it matters but if I were coaching someone I'd advocate them doing 6 days a week that way it's less training per day. Eventually more volume needs to be added in to any program and it's a lot easier to do that when you aren't already at the gym for 1.5 - 2 hours (assuming you do some sort of mobility and are taking longer rest periods as it is a strength program)

>>38436130
>Forearmlet who'll be using wrist straps in a few months detected.

Aren't you late for your tea party fuccboi?

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>>38436130
>Doing an exercise specifically for a body part gives less gains than a lift that uses them as accessories

Don't do squats because walk works the legs

>>38436175
I wonder why you think you're qualified to even have an opinion on this? rip has trained people daily for for over 35 years. he has tried different variations and seen how literally thousands of people have responded to the training. how much experience do you have? how many people have you trained, and for how many years?

>>38435795
He is a definite STJ; dunno about the E or I though

>>38435795
you are a special kind of retard, my friend

>>38436207
Why do we let retards talk?

>>38436207
>doing something for a long time makes it right

give me one reason why you shouldn't do rows that isn't "mark doesn't do it"

>>38436224
It's those damned liberals

>>38436193
I don't think you fully comprehend how fucking retarded you are.
You should stop posting now.

>>38436207
Name one successful powerlifter that was trained by the mighty powerlifting coach you call Rip.
It's a 100% meme. The routine is way to oversimplified to produce the best results.

>>38436175
You do realise that one of the best points about SS is that he goes to great lengths to explain why he's chosen the specific exercises he has, in the specific rep ranges he has them in, and why he advises a three day a week program with rest between workouts, right?

It's not as though any of it's a mystery. There is no point in any of his writing where he says "do it this way because I say so." In fact, he takes great pains not to do that. You'd know that if you'd read the books.

Whereas that is more or less exactly what you've done here by more or less suggesting doing a brosplit. Nice one brah.

>>38436193
If curlbro say so it must be true

>>38436145
He was never an olympic lifter.

>>38436270
SS isn't for powerlifting. SS is for beginners. It teaches bodybuilder style benching rather than the arched back meme for example.

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>>38436270
Are you fucking nuts? He doesn't train top athletes. he trains NOVICES!

>>38436274
You know that there are people with different views on how to do things right?

>taking the same workouts and spreading them out over time to allow for more volume when it is needed (which it will be) = a bro split

I bet you measure the amount of time you've been lifting in weeks, brah

>>38436193
Jesus christ you can't be that stupid. Who said anything about a lift. Holding heavy ass weight for extended periods of time is accomplished by wrists and grip.

I thought school was back in

>>38436315
>gallon of milk per day meme

>>38436224
>>38436249
>>38436270
All these mad DYELs

This guy >>38436270 is especially dense. Rip has specialized in training novices. His routine is for making novices strong as quickly as possible. You don't measure the effectiveness of a novice routine by asking how many elite powerlifters it prouduces.

>>38436299
I meant Starr, not Rip. And Rip did compete as a masters oly lifter for a while.

>>38436301
So you're not supposed to get strong?
Kek.
Seems to be working then.
Sry, I take it back.

>be spooky dyeleton teenager
>get a retarded routine from a local gym trainer
>cunt had me doing bodyweight lunges
>had enough, do some research and buy a barbell and squat while watching anime
I just wanted to be big

>>38436343
he's right, though. SS is not powerlifting. anyone who can't see that should just stop posting immediately because they clearly don't understand even the basics of this shit.

>>38436349
are you big?

>>38436343
Do you have cognitive dissonance or are you pretending to be retarded? I said it was a beginner program. The point of that is to get stronger.

Kys desu lad

>>38436340
But you should, you idiot. Any routine will work for somebody who didn't lift before. Stop being retarded and read a real book like Supertraining.

>>38436340

Every strength coach's dream is to coach kids from benching the barbell to benching 135

LOL

do you know why he doesn't work with anyone above the beginner level? It's because no one wants to work with him.

He's not a bad coach, just incredibly overrated for some reason. Starting strength is an okay program, that's it really.

>>38436381
>just incredibly overrated for some reason

Because his book sold over 350,000 copies

>>38436364
>Routine uses competition lifts
>Goal is to get stronger in those lifts
>Not a PL routine though!

>>38436369
>Any routine will work for somebody who didn't lift before.
oh wow, we have a genius here. what I don't understand is why a genius like yourself forgot the simple fact that even if two routines work, one can be vastly more effective than the other. the whole point of doing SS is to get through the novice phase as quickly as possible. rip has specialized in teaching the lifts quickly so people spend less time learning the form, and a routine that lets you put weight on the bar as fast as possible. sure, you'll get to the same point eventually on a worse routine, but it will take you 2-3 times as long, or worse.

>>38436396
As I posted, starting strength is an okay program if you're a beginner who's starting to get into barbell training. The book also really eases you into the basics and stuff. His only coaching contribution is starting strength, which isn't terrible, but it doesn't deserve all of this praise either.

isn't his program in the sticky everyone suggests to read? i'm doing stronglifts 5x5, currently at month 2. am i being memed?

>>38435844
>>Scooby raved a bit about his calorie intake recommendations being way too high and that it'd only make you fat.

scooby was right.

after lifting for years and starting with SS in hindsight my biggest problem with SS is low bar squats and rep ranges being too low. tbqh low bar squats are fucking retarded if you aren't a powerlifter and mobility issues that make high bar squats difficult for beginners should be addressed rather than just moving the bar back so people with shit mobility can hit parallel with more weight on the bar.

>>38436317
You do realise that everything you're saying is showing off the fact that you don't understand how programming works, right? Or how the body responds to stresses at different stages of the training lifecylcle?

I bet you count your squat 1RM in ounces, brah.

>>38436409
But I was implying that SS is slower :/

>>38436372
>Every strength coach's dream is to coach kids from benching the barbell to benching 135
not really, but there are tons more kids who can't bench 135 than there are elite lifters. he has filled a niche and made a ton of money doing so.

>do you know why he doesn't work with anyone above the beginner level? It's because no one wants to work with him.
he works with tons of people above the beginner level. not world class, but many strong lifters.

>>38436406
>Thinking SS is a PL routine

nice meme lad

>>38436361
No, but I have gained ten kilos
That was just under a year ago, I have now graduated to a slightly more muscular skinnyfat. At least I still have anime, right?

>>38436419
what's your problem with low bar squats?

>>38436419
are you fucking retarded ennui? the low bar squat involves more of the hip abductors!

>http://startingstrength.com/articles/squat_rippetoe.pdf

>>38436422
Please tell me how I don't understand how programming works :)

>>38436433
Otherwise it's just terrible exercise selection. I'm afraid you are being memed. I was actually trying to make SS appear a little more rational.

>>38436419
You should only do low bar squats if you're a powerlifter , no point otherwise.

>>38436446
they require very mobility compared to full depth high bar squats and better joint mobility should be something that should be trained rather than just ignored or worked around.

>>38436454
who cares when your average SS trainee still can't do a proper high bar squat after months of low bar squatting?

>>38436469
>I was only pretending to be retarded

>>38436416
SS is literally the only source of its kind for a novice who doesn't happen to live right next door to a black iron gym or have a close friend who knows what they're doing.

I think Jim Wendler best summed up the significance of SS when he said that nobody in the lifting community had really understood that a book like that was necessary because while what it teaches is more or less common knowledge within the community, it's basically totally unknown or degraded to meme level trash outside it.

>>38436490
wait.. you use your squats to train your "mobility"? are you an absolute moron?

>>38436490
>they require very mobility

very little*

my transition from low bar to high bar squats made me a lot fucking stronger and a lot more mobile, especially when i started pausing my squats.

>>38436490
why the fuck would you even WANT to highbar squat in the first place?

dont say for Olympic lifts

>>38436501
this is a good point, and rip himself has said that nothing in the book is his own invention. all he did was write down what the lifters of his generation knew.

>>38436433
What else would it be?

>training competition lifts in the strength rep range
>not a powerlifting program

If your goal is size, don't do SS.
If your goal is "general strength" what does that even mean if you aren't going to apply it towards something?

>>38436469
Why is it terrible exercise selection? The exercises in SS have been at the core of strength training practically since 'strength training' was a thing.

It's funny because no one actually does SS, they don't do power cleans.

>>38436520
>has literally never read SS

nice meme lad

>>38436506
for aesthetically driven people the high bar squat is way better for quad development

for sports driven people the high bar squat translates out the gym and onto the field much better

the low bar squat is much more posterior chain involved than a high bar squat. so why bother doing a posterior chain squat if you can just hit the posterior chain with another movement and focus on high bars instead?

ITT: retards that think SS is a PL program

top kek

>>38436542
The established procedure is to claim you do them, write them down in your log, and claim that you failed a set of them or two every 4th or 5th workout just to make it seem realistic.

>>38436502
A full range of motion will act as a squat but actually ennui is just fucking dumb.

a more vertical back angle will shorten the hamstrings in the movement. The idea of the squat is to use your ass "Hip drave!"

>>38436506
>>why the fuck would you even WANT to highbar squat in the first place?

size, strength. why wouldn't you? you're already deadlifting for glute/hamstring development, why squat low bar rather than high bar and engage your quads more?

>>38436340
That's the problem though. Nobody in their right mind has an issue with his attitude towards training novices. He's very knowledgable and does a great job of it.
Rip does a great job of saying this as well, he's very keen on commenting on how he's training the general population and all that.
But every so often he will feel that he's just as capable of commenting on the state of USAs WL problem. Or that X, Y and Z is completely fucking retarded and doesn't work - unless it does for someone who's strong, in which case it does work but that doesn't somehow defeat his argument because we're back to training the general population and that's it.

He is strangely dogmatic about certain areas, exercises and cues - for literally no reason. Most people who are not stupid will agree on *most* things he says.
However, Rip is the guy who sits in the corner moping and shouting "YOU'RE ALL WRONG" when someone disagrees with him and refuses to listen or discuss when someone else has another opinion. This is most obvious in terms of his views on olympic lifting and low/high bar squats.
He is almost always on point. But when he isn't he still acts as if he is.

>>38436554
I'm done arguing with retards. We all know its better to do one exercise then to do several exercises

>>38436554
Wrongalongadingdong.

Strength and power display in field sports (and, y'know, anything) are expressed from the hips outward. The low bar squat is basically the only movement that can directly train hip drive, and therefore it has a greater practical application than high bar does to literally any activity that demands whole body strength be displayed quickly.

Also - you're training more muscles under heavier load with low bar. I literally makes you stronger than high bar can. That alone should be argument enough, because the only people who care about high bar squats are fucking militant olyfags with a chip on their shoulder.

>>38436569
>size, strength

Are you implying the low bar squat doesn't also do this?

>>38436627
i'm implying that your posterior chain is already getting enough work with heavy deadlifts.

>>38436576
Training novices is easy though. going from 0 to anything will produce results.

As long as there is enough time for recovery, you're hitting the basics, and there is some form of progression be it through load or volume then the person is going to progress.

I think when it comes to coaching beginners it's more about keeping them from doing the wrong shit than making sure everything is 100% right because it doesn't matter as much.

>>38436552
Why would you have to read the book to comment? The discussion is about the retarded training template.
The book seems to be solid. Though nothing the russians didn't write about already.
>magic bullet: 3 sets of 5 reps
>linear progression and deloads
>diet: GOMAD
This is almost as retarded as Layne Nortons squat technique.

>>38436613
>deadlift doesn't use hip drive

k

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>>38436637
lmao you ARE fucking dumb. No wonder you tore your bicep

>>38436613
Box Squats, Heavy Partials and Jump Squats are much better though. Why the fuck would you do the Powerlifting competition movement when you just could train specifically for your own sport?!

>>38436605
Unless you have short femurs you aren't going to get any quad benefit from a low bar squat because you're going to have push your hips so far back to get to depth that you will be using a lot of your back to complete the lift.

>come to /fit argue with people who can't even squat 400 pounds about how to fucking squat

>>38436681
Because strength is a neutral adaptation and you practice your fucking sport when you practice your fucking sport.

>>38436666
ok

>>38436270

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f7x5oW7zs5I

>>38436715
>tfw the guy you are arguing with is actually retarded
Lel, neural muscular efficiency is a neural adaptation. Strength which consists of more factors definitely isn't.

>>38436827
>tfw the guy you're arguing with cant fucking read

NEUTRAL. As in, applicable across multiple situations. You muppet.

>>38436857
Yeah bro, that does't exist. You just made that up. That being a typo made a lot more sense. You never played any sports, right babe?

>>38436576

>However, Rip is the guy who sits in the corner moping and shouting "YOU'RE ALL WRONG" when someone disagrees with him and refuses to listen or discuss when someone else has another opinion.

I've read a lot of his Q&A and it seems like it's the complete opposite. He has argued and discussed his points time after time and always invites people to refute what he's saying. Some of the most in-depth, useful discussions on the topic can be found on that forum.

He seems to be the only person (or group of people, Starting Strength isn't just Rip) that has actually sat down and said, okay lets actually look at the starting position and squatting style and work out what's optimal, rather than just submitting to 'well, that's the way oly lifters have always done it, so it must be right!'.

>>38436818

He looks like shit lmao

>>38436886
Oh god you're one of those fucking idiotic functional strength dipshits, aren't you?

Do us all a favour and go use your functional strength to suck a dick.

>>38436907
This is more or less the heart of the matter.

So much of strength training is based on marketing bullshit, received wisdom, and 'exercise science' that tests meaningless parameters.

A few people have made a lot of money off that. An even greater number have based their ENTIRE LIFESTYLE around it. And those kind of people can't be reasoned with. SS vs USAW is a prime example - Rip basically suggests trying something different to improve the prospects of a sport that's more or less dying off in the US. Everyone involved in said sport goes nuts. All 15 of them.

>>38435766
Because he has the best intro program to lifting

you start doing heavy compounds, pull ups and dips which will ALL be used in different routines

just those exercises are enough to look great, you just need to get into texas method or mad
cow to continue progressing on strength numbers

>>38436419
>low reps
>bad


??? you think there's magic if you do 3 more reps ?

there's even a study floating around where doing 5 reps or 12 will end up the same

So many misconceptions towards Starting Strength in this thread.
Criticising it for being too simple completely overlooks the fact you're dealing with absolute beginners. There is 0 point going on a brosplit and hitting 12 sets of chest when you're barely past benching the bar. By excluding all the fluff you can hit every muscle group with increased frequency which at the early stage is far more important than volume of sets.
It's also not a powerlifting program, you're training to get strong for either athletic purposes or so that when you transition to a program more focused on aesthetics you're no longer pushing baby weight.
One of the key aspects of the book is the discussion of form, it's easy to watch a video of a deadlift or squat and miss tiny details that make massive differences. The book is easily the best source for learning the barbell lifts out there.

>>38436649
You're the prick implying it's a PL program
It isn't

>>38436264
>Dat dunning kruger

>>38436319
How fucking stupid are you? A lift was specifically mentioned. Do you know how you get strong wrists? Wrist courls

Fucking double niggers like you need to fuck off back to facebook

Walker Texas Ranger has really let himself go.

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>>38435869

Rip clearly says that Overweight guys should not do GOMAD. To paraphrase one of his latest videos:

"I won't have a problem getting a fat guy to eat enough. He already does. I just need him to quit drinking Soda"

>>38436175

So you would change practically everything...

What do you chaps think of the Texas Method?

>>38436542

They also don't do the chin ups and then they complain about a lack of arm work...

Chin Ups are a type of bicep curl!!!

>>38435766
He was a strong powerlifting many years ago.

SS is not perfect but it will get you there if you're willing to put in the effort

>>38436502
squats are a great way to get mobile. stretch on the way down, get strong in that range of motion, and you'll make lasting mobility gains.

>>38436044
If you claim you are unable to gain weight no matter what you do, GOMAD is a cure. It's not really meant ti be a permanent diet, it's meant to shut them up about their "high metabolism."

>>38436569
i never saw a guy who did high bar squats and didn't have quads which were disproportionately strong/big to their hamstrings.

>>38435766
It's not a cult when you have a bunch of autistic neckbeards hanging off your every word, that's just called a pack of losers.

I saw someone that does the squat press meme running at my local track yesterday. Damn, that body looks horrible. It like someone tree trunks on a barrel.

>>38438766
He was mediocre even though he took lots of roids

>>38435839
>His advice gives fags the idea that they found the "secret" that those stupid gym bros don't know

/thread

>>38435963
>Name a better beginner program flam.

literally anything. everything works when you're a beginner

that's rip's great lie - you're anewbie, it all works, there's no miagic

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>>38435844
LMAO

Brehs. I will start hitting the gym in september for the first time in my life and I've been reading the sticky and wiki and it says SS is the best thing for me.

Reading this thread I'm not so sure anymore. Is SS a meme or are people memeing about it when it's actually good? If not SS then what should I do instead? HELP

>>38439000
This is true, but he fully admits to his own mediocrity as a competitor at any opportunity. He loved lifting weights but he didn't really have the genetic profile to be an elite lifter.

>>38436418
Do ss instead

>>38439101
How is it a lie? One of his books has a chapter entitled 'the novice - everything works, but some things work better than others.'

SS is a routine designed to take full advantage of the novice's ability to make progress for as long as it can be maintained. It's pretty upfront about being that - as you would know had you actually read it.

Is he still alive and doing stuff? I first heard about SS and Rippetoe in 2012. Feels like generations ago desu

>>38439338

Read the book.

>>38436224
I don't know man, who gave you permission to talk?

>>38439497
The vast majority doesn't care if you can diddylift 400 lbs if you're a fat cunt, if you're all about aesthetics you shouldn't SS for more than 2 months.

it's easy getting huge legs, but getting your upperbody in tone is gonna take a lot longer and you'll end up looking like a moron.

>>38439658
>seriously thinks deadlifts only work legs

I feel sorry for your fucking parents.

>>38436666
Quads of going to far

>>38439658
>in tone
Found the DYEL

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>>38436136

I agree with this (mostly). He has some kinda dumb opinions tho.

>ez bars are shit for bicep growth
Marks issue here is that the slightly bent grip of a ez bar does not fully activate the biceps, which is a correct statement. BUT Studies show that using ez bars will yield nearly as much muscle growth as using a barbell and will also target your brachialis AND a significantly reduced risk of wrist injury. So here, Mark is wrong. ez bars are not useless for biceps curls and is the safer options.

And regarding safety...
>injuries
Mark Rippetoe is a great strength trainer but he's doesn't really care about injury prevention. He's been operated on like 10 times, yet he doesn't seem to draw a correlation between his sometimes unsafe workouts and his frequent injuries.

>>38440354

How many people do you know that have acutely injured their wrist doing curls? EZ curls might be a bit more elbow friendly and safe, but you did just say they yield 'nearly' as much growth as barbell, i.e. barbell curls are still better. It makes very little difference though, and I think he'd probably agree.

His injuries have been due to things outside of the gym. Several of his injuries have been from horse riding (that shit is fucking dangerous), and the last injury he had was from jumping away from a rattlesnake beside his car.

>>38440405

The guy is like over 60 and can squat 405x5, deadlift 500 and do like 16 chin ups. I'd say that's pretty impressive.

>>38440504

>How many people do you know that have acutely injured their wrist doing curls?

None, and even if I did I still wouldn't subscribe to anecdotal evidence. But a straight bar puts more pressure on your wrists at an unnatural angle.

>>38436175
>If I was coaching anyone, especially a beginner I would want them taking lots of reps

^this

>>38440549

Almost all of the best programmes and methods were the result of anecdotal evidence. Exercise science literature is largely very poor, even people involved with it admit this. Don't be so quick to throw out anecdote when you probably owe a lot to it.

It's the same wrist angle as chin ups, underhand rows, the supinated hand on a mixed grip deadlift etc. If it bothers your wrist then sure, use an ez curl bar, but if like the majority of people it doesn't cause wrist discomfort then I don't see why people shouldn't do it.

>>38440405
>he fell for the meme
Nigger everyone knows that's not Rip you fucking newfag.

jesus guys its just compound lifts theres no need to go mental

read the book its no mystery

>>38439338
Same here. I used to do brosplits with 20 reps And 3 sets for 3 months while cutting g and had my first SS workout today. It is good, right?

>>38435844
scooby is an idiot who thinks building muscle follows a linear function (5lbs a year to eternity) instead of something like a logarithmic function.

>>38440804

>Almost all of the best programmes and methods were the result of anecdotal evidence

There's plenty of studies on lifting. I don't know what you're talking about.

>>38436057
>terrible exercise selection
So squats, press, bench press, deadlifts, and chins are the foundational compound movements?
> sub-optimal progression
It's literally a beginner LP, continue until strength gains are no longer able to be made within 48 hours. A newb doesn't need anything but this for the first 3-4 months.
>volume to low,
It's a novice strength program. It doesn't need lots of volume.
>intensity to high.
IT'S A NOVICE STRENGTH PROGRAM YOU NEED TO LIVE HEAVY TO GET STRONG

Fucking memelords.

>>38435766
It's actually the opposite

Lier and very misleading trends like Jeff Seid and such is making fitness industry very unhealthy. We like rip just because he's one the few people who can still teach people correct methods and correct mentality

Fitness world is like a fag and transgender parade. You get 99% fucking cancer in there it's so rare to find one good man among them. Of course you praise him

>>38435929
Even if he was recommending a skinny teen 7k calories, that doesnt make any sense. It's adding fat for no reason

>>38435869
Are fucking stupid???
100 of 100 post about disliking SS, are from 100% DID NOT READ THE FUCKING BOOK faggot

Why? Seriously why? Why do these people who did not read the book comment on something that's not claimed by SS?????

Where the fuck do they get the confidence to argue with other people??? Like seriously. I've quickly gone through SS but I even remember he said GOMAD only applies to underweight teenager who don't like eating much


It's one fucking small paragraph in that one fucking book and these faggots just keep commenting on somethings that's clearly not what SS said. How hard is it for them to just read book first???


So fucking raged. Everyday there's at least 5 SS thread and I've never ever seen one person read the fucking book

Just fuck off

>>38437104
This. Newbs can do SS, then jump onto a PPL or PHAT for size or go onto the TM for strength.

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>>38435766
>method
you have answered yourself, tardo
HE HAS A METHOD
based
on
real (empirical)
working
facts

now fuck off

>>38435782
>tfw you've been coming here for years now
>tfw you realise you're one of the pathetic kissless virgins

I legitimately have no idea how SS not only is taken seriously by anybody, but is popular among anybody but powershitters. It does NOTHING your average beginner lifter wants (frequent gym time, hypertrophy, and a focus on show muscles), neglects or undertrains every muscle group that is needed to look good, hilariously over trains legs (namely quads), and advocates a stupidly high calorie diet. If you follow SS you'll get fat with big legs and nothing else. Virtually any other beginner program is better for your average beginner that wants to look good. It's gotta be some kind of troll having it advocated as the end all beginner program.

I mean, has Rippletits ever even trained a successful athlete? All he did was incorrectly repeat what other more successful coaches and lifters said and advocated. He's a fucking joke, and fat to top it off. There is no reason to take him seriously.

>>38441474
i agree with most of what you said, but to answer your question, it's because ss is a bit less bullshit AND easier to follow than, say, a 'beginner program' you'd get on bb.com website (aka something like mon-chest, tue-back, wed-legs, thur-shoulders, fri-arms, with no real progression scheme)

>>38441368
what the fuck is going on here

>>38435782
>>tfw you're an oldfag
>>tfw made it but still kissless virgin
>>gg.jpeg

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>>38435929
>That was strictly for underweight teenages
That's not true.
https://www.t-nation.com/training/cold-slap-in-the-newbie-face

>For a guy that currently weighs 165 lbs., stands 5' 10" and is 20 years old, that diet will be much more food than he'll think he needs if his information has come from the typical sources of misinformation.

>He'll need 300 grams of protein, plenty of good fat, and moderate glycemic carbs for a total of perhaps 5-6000 calories per day.

A 165 lbs guy doesn't need 300 grams of protein, and certainly not 6000 calories, unless he likes obesity and wants a hanging gut like Mark Permabulker.

Wtf? Scooby is right. This fatso's nutrition advice is pants on head retarded, as is his training advice.

>>38439338
>I've been reading the sticky and wiki and it says SS is the best thing for me.
Whoever wrote the sticky is an idiot. Read how bodybuilders train if you want to look good. It has nothing to do with the bullshit that Rippetoe advocates.

>>38439480
>but he didn't really have the genetic profile to be an elite lifter.
He didn't have the brains to train properly.

>>38439338
>>38440903
Do what the sticky says. Period. 50% of the people are trolling in this thread.

>>38435766

The latest editions of Starting strength and PPFT are enough to train most people (if you're on /fit/ that's you) for the rest of their life.

His programming and technique are simple, effective and easy to teach.

>>38436045

I have a story similar to this. It's night and day difference between being a 135lbs early 20s to being a 200lb mid twenties with a 1300 total using only SS and PPST methodology.

>>38441085

Yeah, and what have we learned from them that we didn't know already? All the best methods of lifting, all the best programs, how many of them are the result of exercise science literature? Essentially none.

>>38436569
The point of the lowbar squat is that you get _additional_ involvement from glutes and hamstrings. Their actual function in the lift is small; the quads are still the dominant muscle. But it's enough that you can use HIP DRAHV to add more weight.

>>38436506

For your quads to be stronger?

Look at natty powerlifters who squat exclusively low-bar. They don't have any fucking quads.

Meanwhile, even talentless weightlifters have huge quad sweeps because of all the high bars they do. For aesthetics, high bar is simply superior. I would argue that high bar TRAINING is superior for powerlifting too, but that's a longer topic

>>38441787
He's training for hauling bigger buckets of water up to the village shrine.

>>38436666

except he's right

If you only low-bar squat, your quad strength will be severely lacking. Why do you think powerlifters have such a tough time doing front squats?

Okay lads.

I've been lifting weights now for a few years, and in a few different circles. My stats are: 475 squat, 285 benchpress and a 500 deadlift at 203. I've also snatched 210 and clean and jerked 275 at 168lbs (before I powerlifted).

I'll try and break down, as best I can, the reasons Mark has a cult following and why people don't like him. I'll be making some assumptions that are based on my multi-year journey in barbell land. I firmly believe everything I say is true. Let's begin.

The lifting world is primarily populated by a particular kind of nerd - the kind of nerd that likes quantitative and objective answers, the kinds of things that are measurable. Lifting weights and fitness fills the criteria, because you can objectively measure your improvement from the scale, the size of your muscles, and the weight on the bar. These are not necessarily stem major types, but a lot of stem major types like to lift and it goes hand in hand with that love of measurement. Think of these people at being "Test-passers". Tell them what to do and they will do it to the T. Cue this kind of nerd, with no real understanding of how to get fit and strong, entering the fitness world.

It's rife full of magazines, meme-workouts and weird techniques that don't make sense. He works out for a while, gets frustrated at lack of results, and keeps looking for answers. Then Rip appears. He says to them, in his book and his forums, "The way to get strong is to do THESE 5 exercises, done THIS way and to add THIS much weight and to eat THIS kind of diet and you will get bigger and stronger." The arguments he provides seem sound enough. You squat with the bar over the middle of the foot because physics. You squat lowbar because it uses the most muscle mass. You eat the diet, because caloric surplus. You ignore "frills" and just work the basics pretty hard. Not shockingly, these things make you stronger.

Rip backs up everything he says with strong logical arguments and wit.

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>>38435782
this

>tfw 5 years of lifting and advanced stats didn't cure autism

>>38443177

Because people saw results, and because Rip argues in a way that makes SENSE within the context of his assumptions (here is where things start to unravel), and because he's relatively a strong personality with some wit, people flock to him. It's simply what happens when people are exposed to a strong personality who led them to the "light".

Now, here is why serious lifters don't take him as seriously. Even though his arguments make logical sense, he hasn't actually been able to PROVE anything with them, except that he can make beginners get very strong quickly, and also make them fat.

He hasn't created any elite lifters, or even advanced lifters. He has no lifters that squat even 500lbs that he trained from a 300lb squat, let alone a raw beginner. Everyone who is on his coaching "staff" that's actually strong does NOT do the things he vehemently advocates for. Jordan Feiganbaum is probably the strongest of the SS coaches, and he does RTS style training and has also (probably, based on rumors) done roids. He also refuses to squat exactly as Rip says to squat, because there actually isn't any empirical evidence that squatting as bent over as Rip advocates makes you a better squatter. In fact, the evidence points to UPRIGHT squatters being the best.

Then there are his arguments, which flow well and make sense, but they're based on some false assumptions. The biggest one is his thinking on the squat: Squat lowbar and head down, leaning over, because it uses the most muscle mass, and is therefor the best way to squat.

Sounds convincing, but when you actually consider that the best squatters are more upright, have more quad and upper back development rather than glute and hamstring develop, when you consider that EMG studies on hamstring activation between front, low bar and high bar squats shows almost NO difference, then his argument starts to fall apart.

>>38443250

Then we can move on to the anecdotal evidence - that SS, low bar exclusive squatters have weak quad development compared to weightlifters of similar strength, that the BEST squatters in the world squat upright, heads up and dedicate at least part of their training to quad development, and his arguments fall apart further.

He advocates that "real men" only pull conventional (he literally started the "sumo is gay" meme) yet the majority of the best pound for pound deadlifters in the world pull sumo.

He advocates a ridiculous diet of excess fat and calories, yet the best lifters just so happen to also be aesthetic, because they realized that being fat doesn't actually make you stronger. Muscle makes you stronger.

And he recommends lower training volumes, exclusively sets of 5, because he sees the organism as a piece of machinery, rather than a complex biological system that thrives on disorder and varied programming. The russians realized this early and implemented periodization, or phasic structure to their training. The body needs disorder and stress to have the strongest adaptations and so they tried to replicate that disorder by creating phases to the training block.

But, if you bring up any of this to Rip on his forums, he, and his accolades, will shout you down. You are wrong, what you think is wrong and if you simply did it His Way(tm) then you would be better for it.

But lifting is not that new. People HAVE done it his way. And it works when you're new, but it does not work forever. And there are other, better and more robust methods to getting stronger and putting on muscle.

His strong personality creates a cult persona, and that attracts people who need to be around strong personalities. That's just how it works.

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>>38436136
Yup.

He's not right about everything, but he's right about more than you think, even after you take this into account.

>>38440354
>He's been operated on like 10 times, yet he doesn't seem to draw a correlation between his sometimes unsafe workouts and his frequent injuries.
A lot of that is from horses and motorcycles, fwiw.

>STARTING STRENGHT

>>38443344
>it works when you're new, but it does not work forever.


Give this man a medal.

>>38435782
This statement has validity.

>>38443344
If low bar and high bar squat have identical hamstring and glute involvement, which muscles are picking up the slack such that quads are being left behind?

>>38438702
It works really, really well for some guys, but a lot of people find that spreading volume across multiple workouts works better.

>>38443250
>the best squatters are more upright
Obvious confounders here. And Jordan's competition squat is pretty damn near textbook, where the textbook is SS:BBT3. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=91Qn1bLfgfQ) But I don't disagree, in general.

>>38443436
I think it could be the difference in the range of motion and the placement of the stretch reflex

If you could do a high bar squat with a stretch reflex just below parallel, I think it's possible people would be able to squat just as much as low bar

>>38443421
But really, does anyone outside of PL, WL, or BB need to care?

What should I do after ss? Pic related? Ss but add isolation? For God sake help me

>>38443250

>He hasn't created any elite lifters, or even advanced lifters. He has no lifters that squat even 500lbs that he trained from a 300lb squat, let alone a raw beginner.

Justin Lascek and Bryan Foxx both trained at WFAC when rip was spending more time there and got 500lbs+ (600 in Bryan's case) squats at non-fatass bodyweights. Rip doesn't personally coach people for long periods of time anymore. He's rarely at WFAC, and most of time is spent doing seminars all over the country and running the SS organisation.

>Everyone who is on his coaching "staff" that's actually strong does NOT do the things he vehemently advocates for.

He has plenty of strong coaches that lift SS style and do PPST style programs. Go look at the logs on the SS forums, plenty of strong motherfuckers running things like TM and using SS technique.

>Sounds convincing, but when you actually consider that the best squatters are more upright

Plenty of elite squatters that don't squat upright. If squatting upright was the best for squats, everybody in the IPF would be squatting high bar.

>EMG studies on hamstring activation between front, low bar and high bar squats shows almost NO difference, then his argument starts to fall apart.

EMG studies are not reliable for the differences between recruitment. They can tell you when a muscle is being recruited, but accurately comparing contractions has not been shown to be a valid way to compare activation between different lifts.

>>38443344

>that SS, low bar exclusive squatters have weak quad development compared to weightlifters of similar strength, that the BEST squatters in the world squat upright, heads up and dedicate at least part of their training to quad development, and his arguments fall apart further.

Joseph Pena squats head down, leans over and does basic programming without dedicated quad training. He holds two IPF world records in the squat. Also of note, Mike Tuchscherer who looks down and leans over.

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>>38443564

Forgot pic

>>38443177
>>38443250
>>38443344
These are the definitive rippetoe posts. I agree with pretty much every bit of this

>>38443344

Layne Norton also leans over more than just about anyone and set a WR squat in the IPF.

>He advocates a ridiculous diet of excess fat and calories, yet the best lifters just so happen to also be aesthetic, because they realized that being fat doesn't actually make you stronger. Muscle makes you stronger.

He recommends that diet for skellies who are underweight. and it's good advice. The best lifters just so happen to be aesthetic because they cut weight and are also likely to be on drugs. It's like you're saying no elite lifters ever do bulks where they gain fat. Of course they do.

>And he recommends lower training volumes, exclusively sets of 5, because he sees the organism as a piece of machinery, rather than a complex biological system that thrives on disorder and varied programming.

Which has it's place, but probably not for novice trainees. Novices and early intermediates make great progress on just sets of 5 because they can hit them heavy 1-3x a week without overdoing it. They don't need to manipulate exercises and rep schemes yet, since recovery is so damn simple.

>But, if you bring up any of this to Rip on his forums, he, and his accolades, will shout you down. You are wrong, what you think is wrong and if you simply did it His Way(tm) then you would be better for it.

There's a reason he's on the third revision of his third edition of Starting Strength. When they learn new things or a better way of doing something, they update their material. The 1st editions of SS and PPST are completely different from the current ones, because they learned they were wrong about things. This completely flies in the face of what you're saying here. Anybody can also go back and read through the thousands of threads on the forums and see intelligent discussion on topics without 'lol we're right ur wrong go away'.

>>38443574
get out

>>38443574
>>38443673
Best workout, will get you thick tight and juicy

>>38436469
pls stop posting

>>38436681
>CROSSFIT
Don't do plyos unless you understand what they're actually supposed to be, IE how they are done in russia.

>>38442465

Whats your point?

In any case, in my original point I brought up the ez bar, which Rip dismisses as "useless for biceps curls". This statement is not true and he is wrong.

In addition we know that the straight supinated grip is not good for your wrists and injuries raises the risk of injuries. We know this from observation not only of strength training but other sports as well.

>>38441901
>Pic related
I-I'm really scared guys. I'm already aft and doing ss on a cut. What other program should I do then?

I love this man because i love porridge.

And this guy is the mother hen of all milk and oat related foods and is therefore my god.
Based rippoteo delivr me from evil

>>38440549
>But a straight bar puts more pressure on your wrists at an unnatural angle.

What about chin-ups? Lots of people do those without problem on a straight bar.

>>38440549
I have rheumatoid arthritis and I can tell you dumbells are worse for the wrists because of the motion of getting them into position is awfull.

If you bench heave theres no way to ensure you have proper wrist position when doing that motion to swing up 50kg dumbells.

If you know how to grip a bar properly its way better. Also just strap your wrists if your that worried I do it everytime

>>38435945
>do compounds
>as a beginner, focus primarily on your post-chain in order to create structural integrity
>as a beginner, focus on developing ((((STARTING STRENGTH)))))

ur a damb cunt m8

>>38435995
>>38436029
I think you're giving him too much credit. They are very, very close to being exactly the same. Rippetoe's is just simpler, with less overall volume. Only a dumb fucking cunt wouldn't already know that.

>>38443250
The SS organisation quite regularly updates its material, and Rip has admitted to being wrong about specific parts of his advice on numerous occasions. Why do you think SS is in its 9th or so revision already?

Also, the other coaches (particularly the more prominent ones like Sullivan, Feigenbaum, etc) act as a fairly decent collective 'foil' to Rip to either prove disprove or improve his methods. You can be more or less certain that SS as it currently exists is basically 60% Rip, 40% Stef Bradford, and 30% the rest of them. And I'm sure Rip would be the first to admit that.

>>38435802
There's an image floating around of several high profile lifters criticising him.

Popular criticisms include higher squat frequency compared to upper body, which makes no sense because regardless of training age upper body recovers faster. The fact that OHP being programmed with the same priority as bench is counter intuitive for both bodybuilding and powerlifting purposes. The fact that bench frequency less than twice a week is unheard of. The fact that SS into TM does not actually build up your work capacity. The fact that better coaches than him like Sheiko use the deadlift to drive squat progress, instead of the squat to drive deadlift progress.

The bottom line is that if you have specific goals in mind beyond just "I wanna go to the gym and gain some weight", SS is worse than a program made to cater to your goals.

>>38436315
So he is a glorified babysitter.

The two reasons why SS became so popular were two - it was different and it gave the Internet lifter a sense of superiority.

Early-mid 2000's when this thing hit the scene it was all about machines and isolation exercises without any plan or structure. SS had good exercise selection and a decent periodisation scheme and people started getting results.

It also gave noobs a sense of superioirty because they were squatting and were better at it than the "bros", even though they had (and still do) comparable DL and absolutely crap benches.

For all the good SS did, the culture that it spawned - armchair generals who fancy themselves experts because they read 2 books in their life (none worse than Izzy Narvaez), obscenely low volume for all lifts (upper-body especially), hatred of anything that is isolation and machine, the constant circle-jerk of who is natty or not and a basic failure to understand what strength training is. SS has produced more muscle imbalances than anything else and fails to address concerns that your elementary gym teacher did.

Overall, I don't hate SS the program and I have nothing against Rip as a person but his methods and the culture they created are awful.

If you are just starting out and are training 6 days a week with good exercise selection and appropriate periodisation you will make better gains. Everything works, especially when you haven't lifted in your life.

People have been getting big and strong before SS and will continue doing so after it - just keep that into consideration.

>>38436315
He turned a nonlifter with lats into a fat guy with the same lats and gyno.

>>38446251
Candito's beginner program.

>>38436485
And the "point" of high bar squats is...?

>>38446763
That isn't a before and after picture. If you look on the SS site article those photos are taken from, the photo on the left is actually the 'after' photo and the one on the right is the 'during training mid GOMAD' photo. If memory serves that kid got a football scholarship based largely off performance gained through strength gains.

>>38436485
Why are Oly lifters pound-for-pound better?

>>38446835
Makes sense. If I was coaching highschool kids who want to play football I'd put them on SS too.

>>38446655

Most people alternate grip on the chin up and most Gyms have more ergonomic bars for that exact reason

>>38446655
>>38446854
You're both kinda right and kinda wrong.

Straight bar chins are worse for your elbows than they are for your wrists, because you're not moving the same way as a curl. You're pulling with your lats. Neutral grip chin ups fix this problem but also take a some work out of the biceps.

Unfortunately, you can't do neutral grip curls for the biceps, those are hammer curls. You work different muscles. Ez bar curls are a little bit less work on the biceps because you're closer to the neutral position and you'll probably do a tad less weight on them, however they are comfier.

At the end of the day, if your wrists are in pain use an ez bar, the ez vs straight bar argument is nothing new and there is ancedotal evidence for both sides.

>>38446891
>Unfortunately, you can't do neutral grip curls for the biceps, those are hammer curls

Are hammer curls much worse than conventional ones for bicep development? On Candito's LP Hypertrophy program right now and I'm using hammer curls for the bicep exercise since my forearms are tiny

>>38447000
I think they're fine on candito's programs, just do supine yates rows for your horizontal row movement and chins for your vertical. Yates rows will blow up your traps and upper back, chins will blow up your lats, both will give you a sick bicep pump. By the time you get to hammer curls you'll have tired biceps and they'll kill your forearms.

>>38441368
I can't even count how many plates that is.

>>38447031
10 or 11

>>38447031
>>38447050
Actually it's only 9

>>38441049

Well, he pretty much has to say that to cover up his juicing.

>>38446251
>on a cut
You're fine. Exercise, don't eat garbage, do cardio.

>>38446711
>implying that isn't exactly what this board is full of

>>38435839
this is very true.

Trusting a guy that pushed the GOMAD meme AKA Liquid shitting 24/7 AKA Acne Enforcer

>>38441049
What he says is kinda more complex, the linear thing is an approximation to give a rough estimate to newbies...

>>38436520
If your goal is size/aesthetics/whatever then your plan is years long. SS is only meant for your first 3-6 months and then you switch. How retsrded do you have to be to not realize this. You will not become joocy in 3-6 months on any program and SS and other 5x5 programs will do more with your first 3-6 months than any brosplit.

>>38436406
>only powerlifters use barbells

>>38441924
>implying bodybuilders never lift heavy for low reps

>>38436818
Not a PL...
What's the deal with the finger rule? To stop pressing some of the weight? I don't get it.

Also who is the old dude who apparently highly complemented him "better than me at that age"?

>>38439338
A lot of trolls, a lot of ignorance and a lot of overly elitist style "nah uh, America is better" "fuck u faggot America is shit" style of debate.

Honestly SS or SL are probably the best novice programs around. Simple so you know what you're doing, effective so you get strong. Do it for 6-12 months and then if you prove you can stick to lifting worry about finer details

>>38436045
mark pls go

>>38446749
>People have been getting big and strong before SS and will continue doing so after it - just keep that into consideration.

No other program can produce the same amount of linear progression in the same amount of time. SS will get you as strong as YOU can be in the shortest amount of time possible.

Everyone should be milking their novice gains as much as they can. I don't see why you wouldn't choose SS to do that

>>38447696
Most people don't understand how muscles work, how the body adapts to stress, or even how to simply train for general fitness. SS works extremely well, but it's more or less telling you to do the opposite of the meme-level mom science that passes for fitness advice outside the gm, and the opposite of the advanced bro science that proliferates inside it.

People react badly to it because what they do in the gym is more or less a part of their identity and they're insecure fucks who think anything that says what they're doing is wrong is an attack on them.

That's why one of the most common criticisms of Rip and his methods is "well he's a powerlifter!" Powerlifter to these people isn't a sporting competitor, it's a construct in their head that they identify against. This is why even when you explain that strength is a neutral adaptation that has carryover to anything, they still go on about low bar squats being "only good if you're a power lifter." Not being a "powerlifter" is more important to them than being strong is.

That is the level of retardation we're dealing with here.

>>38435766

>rippletits

I don't even know why anyone would take advice from this fat fuck who has literally no accomplishments as a coach, completely failed as an athlete and looks like someone who hasn't seen the front door of a gym his whole life.

He's literally trolling people to become obese and misshapen and people actually take the bait.

Meanwhile there are tons of people with decades of research and first hand experience with training, nutrition and drugs as olympia coaches and participants who coach and do shit for free(to an extent) like layne norton, lyle mcdonald, dave palumbo, chris aceto, etc.

>>38448209
> this fat fuck who has literally no accomplishments
> completely failed
> looks like someone who hasn't seen the front door of a gym his whole life

Still describing Rip or is this your blog?

>>38448209
just stop posting m8 youre dumb and annoying

>>38435782
fpbp
noobs inflate their stats and are just excited by their noob gains after a lifetime of playing wow, seating on their ass and eating tendies for every meal

>>38446728
Lifters as in powerlifters/oly lifters, or bodybuilders?
Because bodybuilders are worthless with regards to actual lifting knowledge

>>38449843
Both. I'm sure if you lurk enough you'll see it pop up in some thread that starts with
>he fell for the SS meme

I think Wendler was one of them, another may have been Candito but I'm a lot less sure on that one. If you really care just ask around for it.

>>38450302
Wendler and Rippetoe are pretty tight with each other.