Lifting has always had a sense of stupidity associated with it.

>>36654436
>had me thinking that the greeks probably valued fitness much higher than we do in today's society
Yes and no.
Fitness for them was being fit for war. That's it. Just like athletes are respected, but lifters aren't nowadays.

Greeks would have made even more fun of you.

Why the fuck do you care what normals think?

They do nothing but work jobs, watch television and get drunk.

They spend an average of ZERO hours per week actually thinking anything through, 99% of what they say is just regurgitating what the TV said or anything they think will make them popular.

Why are you surprised that windup toys made out of meat have ideas that are retarded?

Why would you expect otherwise?

>>36654455
>Fitness for them was being fit for war.

Nigger are you forgetting that the Olympic Games originated in Athens?

>>36654436
It is just difficult to do both things, so doing both at the same time must be more difficult right!

>>36654436
Jesus Christ these are the seeds of a massive victim complex. There's the dumb jock stereotype but no one really believes it. Stereotypes don't apply to real life for long.

>>36654475
>everyone is dumb but me

>>36654507
He's not wrong, despite his sanctimonious tone.

when you're muscley & handsome the default expectation is that you're a meathead.

but when you defy that expectation people love you all the more for it.

they'll remember you, and you'll stand out.

all of these things are good in the context of employment.

It is a more recent phenomenon, in classical times being physically fit was a necessary part of the ideal man, being sound in body, mind and spirit. Any deficiency in these areas were open to criticism. They were so interlinked that someone weak or physically disabled would be automatically considered stupid or morally corrupt.

>>36654515
Most people are of average intelligence.

>>36654480
The ancient Olympic Games were all tests of combat skills: running, boxing, wrestling, throwing.

>>36654543

Average intelligence is not very much.

>>36654436
>Socrates
>not lifting for eudaimonia
>are we moving towards an age where fitness is highly regarded among intellectuals
No, life is far too easy for that to happen.

>>36654455
>Fitness for them was being fit for war. That's it.
Classical societies also had great appreciation for beauty in general, including masculine physical form.

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>>36654523

>>36654543
Most people are of average intelligence by definition, it is just that the average intelligence is unfortunately low.

>>36654543
>>36654564
>Most people are of average intelligence by definition
>by definition
Nope. Completely depends on the width of the distribution.

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>>36654523
>>36654523
>>36654523

>>36654584
I suppose so, but if there are more stupid people then the average intelligence will be lower.

lifting weights has no benefits for smart middle/upper class people of 1st world countries and there is no reason for it to change. ancient greeks had some good fucking reasons to value fitness but today it's way different. you don't need to muscles to defend yourself or win wars and nobody wants to spend their free time lifting weights instead of spending time with friends or family, reading or watching something. unless they're insecure or of below average intelligence and value being a big guy.

>>36654598
Woah, really?

>>36654603
The thing is though, it's still intrinsically virtuous to improve one's body, until the point where it becomes an obsession.

>>36654609
Yes, so your claim is idiotic. Most people are dumb, you'd have to be dumb or blind not to see this. Talks of averages are irrelevent.

>>36654455
>Fitness for them was being fit for war. That's it.
Did you even read the quote in the OP? It wasn't only about war (although it may have started that way).

>>36654603
Nothing unintelligent about valuing your physical aesthetics. It's a better hobby than sitting on your ass and drinking wine.

>>36654489
It's probably from media (nerd vs. jock).

>>36654617
Obsession is what the lazy describe people with dedication.

>>36654603

General fitness is something everyone should strive for, since it does improve your cognitive abilities. You don't need to build muscle, but you certainly need good health.

>>36654480
>>36654555
>>36654634
>American education
"Athlete" was an insult among Greeks. Just saying. Because it denoted someone who just worked out for recreation or sport competition instead of fighting.

>>36654627
>Most people are dumb
I'll be the first to say that most people are fucking stupid. And I'm not saying talk of averages is relevant, I was just correcting something that was said about averages.

>>36654643
Not really, they're two different words with two different meanings.

>>36654647
>implying I'm American
kek, I never said anything about calling people athletes, only that antiquity (particularly Greece) had great appreciation of the human form.

Most of you seem quite thick, I have to be honest.

>>36654664
Sorry m8 I saw where I was wrong. I've been awake for about 35 hours (insomniac).

>>36654584
>what is the bell curve and highschool maths

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>>36654436
I hope anon, I hope

>>36654436
I think a lot of it is jealousy. People who don't have the discipline to maintain their bodies get all pseudo-intellectual about trivial shit online, and think it makes them intelligent. The stupidity inherent in this thinking is the belief that a sound mind and body are mutually exclusive. They're the opposite side of the Chad coin.

As people devoted to our own well being, we must remember that a balance must be struck between fitness of body and fitness of mind, lest we become what they think we are.

This was the heart of Socrates statement.

That and he liked to diddle fit young men.

>>36654523
>Socrates was ripped
He was fit, but I remember reading somewhere there's a description of him as being flabby at least (although it might have been Aristophanes who isn't trustworthy). They were all able to wrestle, though, so it's true they were all in shape even Socrates who was retired.
>Athenians liked anal sex
This isn't what I read. I read the usual method was to penetrate between the young men's closed thighs.

Whoever wrote this hasn't done enough research.

>>36654552
Depends on what "much" is.

More importantly most people create arbitrary kinds of intelligence so that they're above average. Art students think STEMfags are formalising brain dead memorisers who don't think deeply, STEMfags think art students are pretentious air headed idiots.
>>36654564
That's the joke.png
>>36654584
You mean the range of what is considered average intelligence.

>>36654550
>wrestling is a combat skill
>boxing is a combat skill
>sword-fighting isn't a combat skill

>>36654729
>Art students think STEMfags are formalising brain dead memorisers who don't think deeply, STEMfags think art students are pretentious air headed idiots.
Both are intelligent, anybody who thinks beyond work, eat, sleep.

>>36654603
Lifting weights has mental and physical benefits. Try it and you should see for yourself (it has to be somewhat heavy/intense to see the full effect, though).

>>36654647
Read the quote in the OP, it explicitly says working out is important for its own sake.

>>36654644
I think you need to build some muscle as a man. Looking at myself I can tell my frame is not filled out, and I would imagine having some level of muscle mass is important simply because it's how our bodies evolved.

>>36654664
>Not really, they're two different words with two different meanings.
You missed his point, he's saying obsession is used as a way of dismissing someone who is actually dedicated.

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>>36654475
Holy fuck you are Shutinmode 9000. How can one be so autistic?

>>36654743
And how'd you know about other people's deeper thoughts? In my experience people are always deeper than we assume them at first glance. All things strive. They're usually planning to start a business, or reading philosophy, or picking up a new skill.

>>36654436
>is this a recent trend?
Yes. It's really only come about because of the scrawny nerd/dumb jock stereotype.

>>36654832
>people are usually planning to start a business, or reading philosophy, or picking up a new skill
I have met some people like this but I think that's only because I socialise through activities which are only appealing to thoughtful people (environmental activism etc.) I don't think it's typical.

>>36654832

No they aren't, most people are fucking dumb as toast.

> me get art degree be artist me :)

> "But you could just get good at art without the degree, why do you need a degree to learn to use a pencil when there's a whole internet full of information and pirated editions of photoshop?"

> you negative bad person :(

> "Okay so you're doing an art degree, neat, what do you like to draw?"

> me draw anime character art! me has personal character! is sailor moon crossed with female goku. she most powerful me <3!

> "...And you intend to pay money towards a college to draw better fan art of your SMxDBZ self insert, and ultimately make money?"

> yes, me write shitty fanfiction! will make comic to pay for pocky and diabetes drugs

...That's about he caliber of art students I have encountered at universities. Occasionally I'll find a real high grade artist with attention to detail who seems to be going somewhere but usually it's autistic anime fags or Etsy liberal women with blogs full of black and white filter photos. The ones with talent are usually total loners who expend huge effort to keep these people away.

STEM fags are not much better:

> me do STEM make money me :)
> silly art poobrains no memorize autism facts, be poor, shoulda done STEM!

> "Okay, how does going STEM make you money?"

> me do STEM make money me :)

> "Yes, but HOW?"

> cuz STEM make money, I know cuz TV sez

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>>36654888

>>36654832

This is not the norm. Most people are very simple minded. Almost like robots acting on every impulse they get. You got a sweet craving? Better go get something sweet then. Oh you don't want to workout? Ah you're not motivated, lets just skip it today, maybe tomorrow I'll go. Oh I'm feeling tired after work, better order fast food and relax in front of the TV.

That is the norm and I've witnessed it dozens of times.

>>36654896

> me do STEM cuz baby boomer dad sez STEM good
> if me do STEM, daddy gives good boy points
> if me graduate me get XBOX and unlimited tendies. EEEE tendies! xDDD

hi, im a double grad and former "nerd" who lifts

we arent all frat boy douchebags, some of us just wanted to get fit and look good.

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>>36654917
okay

>>36654918
And 'frat boy douchebags' aren't all retards. You can like getting wankered at the weekend and fucking sloots while still being clever.

>>36654940

right

stereotypes are stupid is my point.

>>36654647
No one referred to them as 'athletes' nigger.

>>36654963
unless the stereotypes are of brown people, then they are right 99% of the time

>>36654976

why cant they just shower

who WANTS to smell bad

...

in any case, with regard to lifting if someone wants to better themselves then I respect that. people who look down on lifting need to fuck off cause they are just making excuses for their own laziness.

kinda like a fox and grapes thing

>>36654436
Why would someone who dedicates themselves to science waste their spare time lifting heavy shit?

>>36654436
Socrates was from a time when Greece was past it's zenith, decadent and degenerate.

Modern science is from a time when the West is past it's zenith, decadent and degenerate.

Notice something?

>>36654756
>Lifting weights has mental and physical benefits.
>BAWWW I'm 1 inch too short!
>Hey /fit/ am I balding?
>tfw no gf

>>36655035

Why is science magically better than improving your body?

Explain in your own words.

>>36654543

It's so fucked up to suggest a certain quantum of intelligence is "average". It's a positivistic dogma based on an ideational construct of an "average man", who is perhaps something like an epistemological Robinson Crusoe. The Renaissance had "the Virtuous man" whereas our age of mediocrity obsesses over "averageness".

We don't even value the mind. Barely anybody practices meditation or philosophy. What we value are materialistic things, we are the servants to capitalism after all and society makes sure thats ingrained into us. When we value science or intellect, what we really value is the ability to transform this into economic wealth.

>>36655075

or shit like reality tv

thanks kardashians

>>36654455
The reason they admired fitness is because it was a sign that you worked to improve yourself, not because you'd be good at war. You am idiot.

>>36655091
You're right, but prepare for butthurt amerioinks to meme you.

>>36654436

In order to lift you need to maintain a lot of numbers in your head at all times. I'd say it requires you to be a little bit smrat

>>36654436

All professors are fat af but I think it's women with penis envy and whimps who propagated this rumor. Any intelligent person knows that building muscle helps keep fat away by burning it at rest. On the other hand your heart can't tell the difference between muscle and fat, massive weight is equally a stressor for the heart

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yukio_Mishima
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dolph_Lundgren
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frank_Zane

>>36654647
>euro education

Athletes were very prestigious in that time.

Do you know what the original prize was for winning the Olympic games? A wreath and free food for the rest of your life.

>>36654873
That's the problem, there are thousands of such activities. Sometimes they wouldn't interest you, like stamp collecting of fishing, but what matters is that it interests them.
>>36654888
But they still try to be something more. Trying shows a kind of thoughtfulness, even if they don't succeed.

It makes more sense when we're talking about everyday people going to work on the train.

>>36654906
That's a big misunderstanding about people, people don't always behave the same all the time. If someone has a cheat day, it doesn't mean he does it all the time. Someone can be really lazy at work but be super interested in his hobby.

>>36655051
You have to lift with intensity to see the changes, if you make gentle, easy progress using 3x5 sets you'll add muscle but your hormones won't be affected like they will if you spend more time on 1ROM PRs.

There may also be only so much which can be done for some people. If you had low testosterone exposure in the womb then you might not have what it takes to benefit psychologically from weight-lifting in the way you're talking about. It might still help cognitive function, though.

>>36655075
I didn't say it was good. I was just refuting the point that people are stupid. People who think everything is going bad are not privy to some great truth, things have always been this way. It's obvious that most people are average, but people like to think people are bad so they can feel good.

>>36655075
>it's wrong to suggest average intelligence is average
>it must mean you believe in an "average man"
wew lad

>>36655091
>Barely anybody practices meditation or philosophy.
Neither of those are necessary for "valuing the mind", and you're wrong anyway - meditation is increasingly widespread and trending right now (in the context of stress-reduction, I think).

>>36655179
Isn't that only if you do it a certain way? I just lift according to what's stimulating of my muscles.

>>36655212
How massive does the weight have to be if it's muscle, though - is it a risk if you're natural?

>>36654888
>...
>I AM SILLY
kill yourself

>>36655261
>stamp collecting or fishing
but I don't think stamp collecting is linked to reading philosophy, taking up new skills or starting your own business - whereas I think an interest in environmental activism is connected to those things in the sense that the environmentally aware are thinking long-term about how to care for something, planning and taking action to address what's happening.

>>36654725
Well he was in his 80s when he died.

>>36655283
>things have always been this way.
Stupid people procreate more - this changes the demographics over time, and we're keeping more and more babies alive who would have died (increasing the need for "special education/needs").

>>36655354
#noexcuses

>80s
it was his 70s if I remember rightly.

>no one has mentioned this

Youre putting time, money, and effort into something that furthers your vanity. As explained this post >>36654455 the greeks had to be strong for a purpose. Op, i assume you lift for purely to make yourself look better. This is why atheletes with nice bodies arent looked down upon. No one likes anyone whos obsessed with themselves.

Ans yes, the greek soldiers and the olympic ateletes would laugh at you for training purely for vanity reasons.

But who gives a fuck? When youre steonger than 97% of the people you come across, it matters naught.

>>36655369
>As explained this post
>As explained
>explained
you mean wrongly claimed without evidence contrary to evidence posted directly in the OP of this thread.

>>36655369
You assume everyone here lifts for aesthetics. Many of us just want to live long healthy lives. You don't see us because we don't post in progress threads, and we don't care who's 'mirin. Personally, I lift because it makes all the rest of my activities easier and more enjoyable.

>>36655416
>everybody

No Daniel. The majority.

>>36655356

If it weren't for the Green Revolution in agriculture, the world would still be 33% white and probably would have a population of only 1.7 billion.

>>36655354
That blows my mind, before modern medicine life expectancy was at 30

>>36655416
>You don't see us because we don't post in progress threads,
>We are legion
>We are anonymous

>>36655369
>vanity reasons
Are you a 15th century theologian?
>looks are vanity
that started because of the assumption that this world is not eternal and so everything in it is doomed to rot and you should focus on the eternal world (heaven).

>>36655486
Source: your ass.

>>36655486
no it wasn't, that statistic comes from the industrial revolution where infant mortality was high. If you survived birth in that time you lived longer than 30 on average, and the industrial revolution was a harsh time to be alive compared to Ancient Athens so there's no reason to think they'd have a mortality rate anywhere near as high.

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>>36654436

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>>36655445
>>36655496
Fair enough. Yeah. Functionalfags are probably the minority here.

>>36654455
You're literally, categorically wrong. Greeks believed in ideals. They were not pragmatic, but idealistic, they had lofty goals based on perfect imaginings that were worth striving for, despite never being achievable. You clearly know nothing about Greek antiquity. The Greeks were thoroughly impressed with chiseled physiques and feats of strength formed and performed only for the sake of the achievement.

>>36654528
This is true, as it was considered that a man would not develop his spirit and mind to it's greatest extent if the body was also not similarly developed. But it's also important to point out that many Greek philosophers point against excess even in this area; i.e. that you should only exercise to the extent necessary rather than for vanity, as is often the case now. Unsurprisingly, moderation in all things is also encouraged and the greatest goal was to become a ideal citizen/philosopher/sage (that is, living your life in accordance with the ruling principles of society/nature/god), which is something I think many /fit/izens (and most people in general) fail at.

>>36655496
No, i have no idea what kind of theological mumble jumble youre tlaking about. Sorry senpai. Thanks for the laugh about e we are legion etc etc post though

>>36655522
>>36655526
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Life_expectancy
>Life Expectancy of Classical Greece: 28

>>36655614
>which is something I think many /fit/izens (and most people in general) faIl at

Usually, they're your average 16-28 year old gymbros. THe majority of us (and people) lifts for vanity reasons and that much is at least certain if not most likely.

How many people do you find lifting for personal and spiritual development? Lets be honest its all about feeling good about ourselves, getting laid, and feel tough. None of that sounds like positive personal/spiritual development

>>36655615
Associating vanity with looks is a relic of Christian ethics, that's all I'm saying.

Vanity comes from the latin meaning "emptiness, falsity" it's something with an empty facade and no substance behind it - that's why we have "vanity cabinets" where they seem to have drawers but don't. So synthol is vanity because there's no strength there it's only appearance.

Muscles are attractive because they're associated with manliness and probably health - if you work out and have strong, well-developed muscles then it is to some extent a sign of virility (although some women build muscle well naturally as well) and health. There's no emptiness or falsity there because the appearance is representative of what's underlying it.

If you use steroids to maintain the muscle then that's vanity because it doesn't reflect your health, although I don't think it's vanity to use steroids to boost yourself out of being underweight.

>>36655615
If you couldn't understand that simple post then you should genuinely kill yourself.

>>36655665
You know, mr.18 year old. When youre older you'll realise your life's fulfilment/value isn't based on how long you live, but how you had lived.

>>36655665
fair enough, the infant mortality skewing the results is still relevant though - especially considering that they had a habit of "exposing" children (especially daughters) as in leaving them out on the mountain overnight with their feet tied to a heavy block of wood.

>Even a poor man will raise a son; even a rich man will expose a daughter - Ancient Greek proverb

>>36655665
>Source is from another encyclopedia that is unsourced.

>>36655734
wikipedia strikes again - it truly is an unreliable source.

>>36655720
I'm just amazed Socrates lived that long mate. Neither me nor Zeno knows about living it well.
>>36655727
Still amazing, our life expectancy with negligible infant deaths is ~80. Thousands of years of medical advancement and most of us live as long as Socrates. And he was poisoned.
>>36655734
>if there isn't an infinite amount of source sources the claim is unreliable
True

>>36655709
>But it's also important to point out that many Greek philosophers point against excess even in this area; i.e. that you should only exercise to the extent necessary rather than for vanity, as is often the case now. Unsurprisingly, moderation in all things is also encouraged and the greatest goal was to become a ideal citizen/philosopher/sage (that is, living your life in accordance with the ruling principles of society/nature/god)

But just as this post said. A lot of fitizens lift, or are wanting to lift beyond moderation. It doesnt matter if you take roids or synthol. Its The reasons behind the motivations itself.

>>36655709
By that reasoning only functional strength is good. Posing for pictures and lifting for aesthetics would be in a way lying.

>>36655312

You need to track your calories, carbs, fats and proteins. You need to keep track of percentages when increasing weight and to figure out your one rep maxes.

>>36655787
I thought he was in his 70s. I mean you're right but most people now don't need medicine to keep them alive that long - the Greeks had an excellent diet, a relatively safe life (easy to live in that environment etc.).

If anything half the time we use medicine to undo the damage people do to themselves living the way we live now (sedentary lives, stress).

Ethics and social structure can count for more than medicine, anti-biotics etc. - progress isn't linear and we aren't the pinnacle of anything.

>>36655787
>>if there isn't an infinite amount of source sources the claim is unreliable
You're a moron, an unsourced encyclopedia is not a valid source.

>>36655816
That is true, other than vaccines most people don't need medical attention till they're older.

I'd say collectively, as a race, we're very ethnical. Materialism translates into a hard working humanity. Advertising makes art of sorts. Politics is a kind of discourse. Science of course has come further

>>36655825
That encyclopedia would need a source, and that source would need a source, and that source would need a source.

>>36655615
the greek concept of aesthetics is different to the later Christian one. In the Classical view the aesthetic is virtuous.

>>36655888
>That encyclopedia would need a source, and that source would need a source, and that source would need a source.
You can't be this stupid, a true source would be medical records or something. I repeat an encyclopedia with no source i.e EVIDENCE! is not a valid soure. Give in to your mistake, being wrong isn't a crime.

>>36655802
Moderation is another value altogether, though. I can understand that the way people lift is immoderate, but that isn't the same as saying lifting for looks at all is vanity, that's the Christian view. The Greeks might say you lift until you reach the ideal (like their sculptures) instead of competing to see who can add the most mass (like Mr Olympia) - however they'd still be lifting for an appearance.
>It's the reason behind the motivations itself
Please elaborate?

>>36655805
>Lifting for aesthetics would be in a way lying
Why, though? If the reason muscular aesthetics are attractive is that it showcase health and that you're a man, then why would it be lying to lift intentionally to showcase that you're healthy and a man?

>>36655811
>You need to track your calories, carbs, fats and proteins. You need to keep track of percentages when increasing weight and to figure out your one rep maxes.
You don't need to do that as an amateur lifter. I just eat whatever I want and lift whatever is challenging adding weight when it isn't challenging anymore. Maybe you're right about the typical lifter - I suspect that might be the bodybuilding approach more than the typical "gymbro", though.

>>36655888
>I'd say collectively, as a race, we're very ethical
The trouble is our ethics is messed up, it values production and "making a difference" too much - so we end up with societies where people are used up for their ability to perform. This leads to high-stress and the degradation of everything which isn't focused specifically on performance (such as family life, friendships and leisure). Those other things (which make up a significant part of human life) are only valued in as much as they support production and keeping people working.

>>36655960
>A true source would be medical records or something
The record for my maternal grandfather's death are that he died of Parkinson's. He never had a diagnosis of Parkinson's and died of hospital-acquired pneumonia.

>>36654888
>memorize autism facts
Someone failed biology 101

>>36656142
>Moderation is another value altogether, though. I can understand that the way people lift is immoderate, but that isn't the same as saying lifting for looks at all is vanity, that's the Christian view. The Greeks might say you lift until you reach the ideal (like their sculptures) instead of competing to see who can add the most mass (like Mr Olympia) - however they'd still be lifting for an appearance.
>>It's the reason behind the motivations itself
>Please elaborate?

Just because the etymology of the word comes from Latin doesn't mean the concept of vanity wasn't around before Christianity. Maybe substitute narcissism for vanity if the word is problematic? Yes, muscles are biological determinants of health and virility, to an extent. In the Classical view the development of the body was part of the development of the 'whole' person, not just to look good naked. This doesn't mean it wasn't appreciated, but it wasn't the end goal. The point is, it was part of a system of developing as an ideal person rather than an end in itself. Which, by the way is the point of that Socrates quote in the OP, although it gets taken out of context too often (see the original passage from Xenophon: http://perseus.uchicago.edu/perseus-cgi/citequery3.pl?dbname=GreekFeb2011&getid=1&query=Xen.%20Mem.%203.12)

>>36654598
there are massive benefits for lifting weights for everyone, particularly when you start hitting your sunset years. prevents muscle wasting and increases bone density.

>>36654644
this is something i firmly believe in. i used to be a fat hunk of shit, until i decided to start eating healthy and do some light training in the gym. i went from 265lbs to 195lbs, practically never eat junk food, and do cardio on top of weight training (5k a day, three times a week), ive seriously never felt more alive and motivated to do things, i feel like bradley cooper in limitless compared to how i used to be. if your body is a flabby piece of shit desperately trying to turn refined sugar into something your brain can use to function, you're going to be a walking disaster until you drop dead from a stroke on your 40th bday.

>>36654436
Only for kids in high school. After 25 or so it is the more intelligent who stay in shape. Take a look around you and see who's in shape in their 30s on up. It isn't the high school Chads, they gave up after it started requiring real effort.

>>36656790
careers and kids are gains stealers bro. im in my mid 30s and have an awesome job and awesome kids, but working out means i literally have zero free time - i have so little of it that going to the gym four times a week occupies all of it. if you dont like working out, then you'll feel like you have zero time for yourself and youll burn out very quickly. i love working out, so life is pretty awesome.

>>36656876
What about home gym or bodyweight exercises? Or go to some kind of climbing gym or something as a family?

>>36656876
I've found that commute time is one of the most important factors. If your commute is an hour or more shit sucks and it does feel like you have zero downtime. Get your commute under half an hour though and spending an hour in the gym ain't so bad at all. Currently have 10m commute, shit rocks.

>>36654436
The brain vs brawn thing is stupid and plays into that Christian re imagining of Jesus' teachings. The meek shall inherit the earth and all that. I wonder if that's not actually a "the nutters are running the insane asylum" type of point that Paul turned around later.

So it's a way to think that life now on earth is really fundamentally fair in some way. In reality it may well be that predisposition to strength and intellect are down to having good nerves. The Chad thing has been a saltiness thing I think since they've been selected in a large part for stuff like College Foosball with IQ tests.