Is the soleus machine bad for your knees? If not, why is the

soleus machine is not bad for your knees, nor is the hamstring machine.

>>35075499
The hamstring curl is bad for your knees

>rocking chuck taylors in the gym
>lifting in chucky tees
>working your muscles in chuchu mctaytays
>getting swole in chunky taytors
>zimzamming your heavy duty thick bits in chimpy doodly ding dong hey hey its TrayTrays

>>35075601
no its not, who told you this?

It's leg extension machine that's bad for your knees not hamstring curl

>>35075687
Why is that?

>>35075668
Sorry I meant leg extension like this guy said >>35075687

>>35075601
>>35075687
all these retards.

none of these machines are inherently bad for your knees.

overuse and overloading something that loads your knees can in time hurt them, but not being an overzealous assbag on the leg extensions will strengthen your knees.

>>35075717
Yeah that's not helpful at all
At what point are you overloading or overusing the machine?

You need to overload to get stronger, that's the point of using the machine in the first place for some, so I am correct in saying the leg extension machine is harmful to the knees.

>>35075730
wrong again. that would mean every exercise is bad for every joint involved because you have to overload on every exercise to progress. see how unhelpful that is?

the point at which you overuse is dependent case to case. I cant say "oh well I started to get pain doing x amount of weight for x amount of reps so you should stop there", because thats not the only variable in the stress-adaptation cycle.

I cant tutor you how to be an intuitive lifter and learn whats too much - but i can tell you you're incorrect thinking the leg extensions are inherently bad for the knees.

>>35075659
>not lifting in your chucks
elgin mones is disappointed in you, and your weak-ass lifts.

>>35075834
>wrong again. that would mean every exercise is bad for every joint involved because you have to overload on every exercise to progress. see how unhelpful that is?
So you just agreed with me?
You need to overload to get stronger, thus the leg extension machine IS bad for your knees if you are using it to strengthen your hamstrings. (Which is a pretty important thing to do I might add)

I'm not claiming over loading causes strain on the joint on all exercises, but I am claiming the leg extension has excessive strain on the knee joint for what it is.

>point at which you overuse is dependent case to case. I cant say "oh well I started to get pain doing x amount of weight for x amount of reps so you should stop there", because thats not the only variable in the stress-adaptation cycle.

It was a rhetorical question, the point was you're not going to know what's over use until the damage is already done, hence why telling me not to "over-use" the machine is not very useful.

You shouldn't over use anything, but how much is enough? It's a moot question.

>>35075879
ok so you clearly know nothing about the stress adaptation cycle.

you know how muay thai fighters can break baseball bats with their shins, but if you did it you'd shatter your leg? appropriate stress loading, intelligent recovery protocols, repeat until shins are hard as nails. in that case, they cause micro-fractures in the shins, the shins heal and super-compensate to be stronger than before, and you repeat the process.

sure we can be children and be like "but my friends all did it (without supervision or any formal education) and broke their shins so training your shins is bad for you. but we know thats not inherently a problem with the training, more so the irresponsible trainers.

apply this to the leg extensions (which train the quadriceps btw, not the hamstrings).

>stress the knees
>allow recovery
>supercompensation occurs
>stronger knees
>repeat

or we could do it the way you think it can only go

>stress the knees
>inadequate recovery
>stress the knees more
>recovery deficit
>something breaks

you erroneously equate overload to chronic damage. you posed the moot question. i'm telling you it's not my fault you don't know how to strategically use a perfectly good machine, and its careless to then say "its bad for your knees" because of your incompetence.

Nothing is inherently bad for you joints. Actually isolation, or single joint movements, are very important. Such a hamstring curl. Zero knee extension and zero hip extension and 100 movement from knee flexion is very important when developing healthy knees. There's a correlation between knee flexion, the muscles associated with it, and the ACL AND LCL. Just as for knee extension, the muscles associated with them, and the PCL and MCL. understanding this will show you to to properly overload those machines without causing imbalances and will maintain healthy joints

>>35075964
Your claim is that doing leg curls will cause super compensation on the knee to occur.
Please look back on what you said and then tell me again why that's not a stupid argument.

Can you link me a study where supercompensation occurs with participants using the leg curl? You're just made a connection with breaking boards and the leg curl for absolutely no reason or supportive evidence.

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>>35076062
1) leg extensions, not leg curls
2) you clearly dont know what supercompensation is
2b) further shows you know nothing about the stress adaptation cycle
3) you can't even begin to comprehend the stress-adaptation cycle unless its to do with lifting evidently

its impossible to discuss something with someone who is so many levels below where they need to be to adequately talk about whats going on. to you this is obviously just a series of buzzwords you may or may not have heard.

if you can even figure out what pic related means, just know you are on mount stupid right now.

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>>35076191
>I am very smart
Pic related is you mate. You're talking out of your arse and claim other people are less intelligent when you fail to explain your points, and fail to support any evidence.

>>35076549
I claim people are less intelligent when they clearly lack the fundamental knowledge to even participate in the issue under contention, yet still bark just as loud as those well above your level.

you asked me to find a study to support supercompensation, which shows me the academic level you're at as you have no idea when and where empirical evidence is even useful.

fortunately I am quite adept in this topic, so yes, on that chart I am on the latter, upwards curve. You, however, are still firmly placed on mount stupid, and tbqh look quite content there. you will never learn anything discussing topics well over your head, just going "study! evidence! my knees hurt tho!".

I've actually been trying to help you here. I've already outlined the topics you obviously need to understand before you come back here and spout more hear-say, as opposed to legitimate counter arguments which I can address.

>>35075659
>taking a shit
>read this post
>have to carry my ass around for the rest of the day cause I laughed it off.

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>>35076670
Holy shit are you autistic or do you just love yourself a little too much.

Anyway I asked you to supply me with evidence that the leg extension machine causes the same effect to your knees as breaking a board with your shins dies Ro your shins.

These a two majorly different things idiot

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>>35075659

>>35076719

you are making yourself look retarded, dude.

>>35076719
>i want a study to show supercompensation is similar to supercompensation
>still making no legitimate arguments
>typical ad hominem, fedora/autist spew
there's no hope for you.

I'm sorry you're such a failure.

>>35076790
Stop evading the question.
How does the leg extension make your knee more resistant or however you wish to put it?

Explain to me, that's all I'm fucking asking you dumb shit.

>>35076809
I've already told you, if you don't understand supercompensation, theres nothing I can say. It'll be a circle of me telling you the process (which I have already)
>>35075879
and you going "study or its not true".

there aren't studies for such fundamental basics, the basics are used to dictate the studies. find me a study that says humans need oxygen to breathe. i'll wait.

I'll make it as simple as possible because you can't infer or be a independent researcher.

>go to google (its a search engine) - instead of typing 4chan, just type google
>look up supercompensation
>figure out how this applies to lifting
>realise the leg extension is a lift

Its amazing how long this argument and how poor all your responses are. Maybe I'm the crazy one for wasting my time with someone so hopeless.

Faggot.

>>35076926
>>35076809

meant to link this for the process
>>35075964

>>35076926
the human body cant compensate for everything. you cant fuck your back up 10 times deadlifting and expect to come stronger just because of supercompensation. cartilage doesn't heal at all, vertebrae heals only up to certain age and very slowly, ligaments heal slowly and none of these heal to become stronger.

leg extensions can be unsafe cause the hamstrings aren't there to balance out the pull of the quads on the tibia, stressing the ligaments and in the worst case scenario, the cartilage. i'm not sure about the cartilage but my brother has gone through several knee surgeries including cartilage replacement. the doctor, who is one of the best in my country, said squats are ok if they don't hurt but never to do leg extensions. i guess you can do sets of 20 pretty safely but even then it's a risk.

>>35077012
>still hasn't googled supercompensation

we're not talking about using leg extensions like an overzealous assbag like I said at the start. and saying "we can't predict what too much is" is a non-argument. no, we can't give a fits-all rule of how much is too much, same way squatting 14 times a week isn't too much for some olympic weightlifters, where as squatting twice a week is too much for elderly, sedetary folk; it's case to case dependent, and it's not my job to figure out your limit to prove a pretty basic fact.

so back to supercompensation, im gonna help you out cause i'm feeling generous.

you CANNOT have supercompensation without recovery. thats the essence of supercompensation. ligaments, bones, muscle bellies, tendons ALL supercompensate as a result of a stress. that includes the tendons connected to the petella, and the tibial tuberosity (the boney sticky out part below your knee cap) all become stronger. and no, you don't have to reach the breaking point to realise the limit. understand these two things:

>just because you can, doesn't mean you should
>get a fucking coach

the latter point is because you obviously can't/refuse to research anything for yourself. getting a legitimate coach will save you the trouble so you can focus on shitposting on 4chan. and dont go "hurr durr most pts are bad tho!" I know. I said get a legitimate coach. do with that what you will, but I'm not about to find one for your dependent ass.

the best doctor in anywhere, let alone some poverty country, doens't make them an exercise therapy expert. thats why theres such thing as exercise referral, doctors aren't qualified or taught how to use exercise as a rehab/prehab tool. theyre too busy specialising in their doctor shit.


and btw, equating leg extensions to vertabral damage is about the dumbest shit you've said all day

>>35076926
I ASKED YOU HOW LEG EXTENSIONS CAUSE SUPERCOMPONSATION
NOT WHAT IS SUPER COMPENSATION

STOP EVADING THE QUESTION

>>35077116
im >>35077012 and not the same guy you talked to earlier.
>ligaments, bones, muscle bellies, tendons ALL supercompensate as a result of a stress
ligaments adapt waaay more slowly than muscles. you cant expect them to become strong at an equal rate to the quads, so you cant expect them to hold up in a leg extension
>doens't make them an exercise therapy expert
not all doctors only perform surgeries, they also plan rehab. pretty sure someone who has seen a thousand broken ACLs due to different sports and also has rehabbed them knows whats safe and whats not.

wasnt equating leg extensions to vertebral damage. i said vertebrae heals very slowly, ligaments heal slowly and muscle heals fast.

>>35077145
holy shit
are you actually this retarded

what does the knee extensions stress
>structures around the knees
what then is in line for subsequent supercompensation
>structures of the knees
what is now stronger/more stable/similar descriptions
>structures of the knees

i stg if you're still confused you should just kill yourself or at least stop lurking /fit/ cause you're never gonna make it.

maybe it's that you dont know what a leg extension is. maybe you have a learning disability. but i just cant figure out where you're confused. if you understand WHAT supercompensation is, you should have been able to understand how leg extensions are beneficial for knees, without the above explanation.

please let me know if theres more confusion.

>>35077204
By the way I am not so ever you've been replying to.
All I need explained is how leg extensions are equivalent to getting denser bone from kicking a board.

I understand now through your explanation but am finding it VERY hard to believe the stress caused by leg extensions are the same as kneeing a wooden board.

That's why I'm skeptical to your explanation and am requesting a source on where you got this knowledge from

>>35077201
doctors way of healing anything is rest. further therapy usual falls upon the duty of the referred physiotherapist, exercise specialist etc. with the doctor performing check ups.

Doctors do understand what causes ACL tears, therefore they just recommend "dont do that", which is poor advice. There is a known battle between medical specialists and exercise specialists, though there has been more breakthroughs favouring exercise science in the recent years.

Yes, ligaments heal slower than muscles, as do tendons - yet the relative stress from how strong you can get in a certain period of time does not supersede the rate at which tendons can recover from. steroids skew this rate, which is why tendon tears are very common in drugaroos.

and yeah, you CAN overstress the tendons/articulations enough where breakdown occurs in natural lifters, but that point is much harder to reach with intelligent programming, something that isn't inherently known. so find someone who knows how to programme, or do lots of research. dont haphazardly do leg extensions then blame them for your bum knee (which is actually bum from a multitude of lifestyle factors, btw)

No one's posted any evidence about it either way, and I couldn't find anything credible on Google just now. About the extension machine. Just some anecdotes.

I'm tempted to say that the anecdotes and bro science is onto something, and one of my text books mentioned something about it sucking for your ACL. Maybe by not letting the hamstring flex to counterbalance the extension, and because the ACL and patellar tendons (look like) they're under constant tension through the whole damn set...maybe that can eff you up.

>>35075283
hamstring curl isn't bad for you knees and only retards skip them
anatomically hamstrings extend the hip and flex the knee, and since there are no knee flexion dominant barbell exercises, you would do leg curls, not seated tho- that shit sucks

>>35075601
>>35075687
>>35075711
die

>>35075730
>>35075879

You're correct in that you are an idiot and have vastly overrated your exercise related knowledge and that you're a fucking retard

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>>35077228
its the same basic principal (supercompensation) just applied to a different adaptation. I'll lay it out (not to be patronising)

board breaking
>stress the shins (impact training)
>shins recover
>shins supercompensate
>shins now stronger than before

leg extensions
>stress the tendons (tension applied through exercise)
>tendons recover
>tendons supercompensate
>tendons now stronger

>ctrl+F 'open chain'
>nothing

OP, any machine that has your heels floating, i.e. not in contact with the ground, is called an open chain exercise. This includes ham curls, leg extension, etc. They have more sheer forces on the joint than closed chain, which is with heels grounded, like RDLs or squats.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8501090

Open chain isn't really a problem in itself, but if you have knee problems then you should either use it very sparingly and very lightly (as a rehab tool it's ok) or just stick to closed chain work.

>>35077310

barbell GHRs are a knee flexion dominant barbell exercise

>>35077289
>doctors way of healing anything is rest. further therapy usual falls upon the duty of the referred physiotherapist, exercise specialist etc. with the doctor performing check ups.
not always. like i said, the doctor associated with my brothers surgery took part in the rehab planning.
>Doctors do understand what causes ACL tears, therefore they just recommend "dont do that", which is poor advice
meh
>Yes, ligaments heal slower than muscles, as do tendons
true, but if you do only compounds and then start doing knee extensions, like most people? have the ligaments still gotten as strong as the muscles, considering that squats and deadlifts have the hamstrings to balance out the load on the ligaments? sure, you can start out light but how do you know when the ligaments have become strong enough?
>>35077354
yeah well what if you can adapt to those sheer forces?

>>35077333
Tendons supercompensate?
Ok I understand now, but could you show me an example or source of this?

>>35077354
I am OP and I appreciate this response but I'm also a retard and don't understand anything.

Is this a complicated way of saying that soleus machine is fine?

Also do you think tendons sumpercompensate?

>>35077404
tendons definitely compensate, just google "tendon" and "adapt". we're discussing ligaments more than tendons though, although they are the same "material" afaik

>>35077372
that requires you have a GHR machine, also it's an advanced exercise, like front squats.. when you start with these there's not much to progess to

>>35077377

sorry, what do you mean by adapt to sheer forces? Force is force, not a muscle or tendon that can be strengthened

>>35077404

heels floating should be avoided if you have knee problems

>>35077455

front squats are an advanced exercise? What do you mean nothing to progress to? Just add weight to the bar if you can handle it without cramping

>>35077404
if it gets stronger, it has to go under supercompensation. it is the essence of training. the tendons of a 500lb squatter are much, much stronger than a 135lb squatter. ligaments, tendons, skeletal/myocardial muscles all have to supercompensate. its just a fancy word that means "gets better" or "over compensate" so it can deal with the previous stress better. there are no studies to show this, it is a basic life process that happens.

>>35077377
>how do you know when the ligaments have become strong enough?
you don't
thats why you can never ensure an injure free athlete, unless you plan for excruciatingly slow progress.

but that's not to say leg extensions = bad knees, because used correctly, you have very strong knees - so its just false logic.

that being said, i don't even do them. i just squat

>>35075283
It's not bad. The only exercise that can fuck up your knees (and spine) are squats. Stick to the machines and you'll be ok.

>>35077463
>sorry, what do you mean by adapt to sheer forces? Force is force, not a muscle or tendon that can be strengthened
just like you adapt to any other force, your muscles get stronger. but when it's sheer forces, it's usually ligaments that get stressed, like in this case - but they can adapt too, so could you just utilize sheer forces to make your shit stronger?
>>35077472
>thats why you can never ensure an injure free athlete, unless you plan for excruciatingly slow progress.
i wouldn't say so, if were talking about regular movements like (lowbar) squats and deadlifts they have the loads balanced so i don't see why the ligaments could be overloaded anyway. other than lifting weights heavy enough to deteriorate form which would bring imbalances to the loading.

yet another thing to consider. how strict are the knee ligaments at keeping the tibia in place? like, if you only have anterior pulling like in leg extensions, surely the tibia would still be somewhat pulled forward instead of the ligaments being constantly under maximal tension and the head of the tibia being completely static under the femur?

so if the tibia is pulled forward and the knee is then extended, surely it could grind some shit like the cartilage in a bad way?

>>35075283
I run a high 10 second 100m dash and use the seated hamstring curl and seated calf machines regularly

I can attest to the fact that my knees are doing very well

>>35077535

you can strengthen the ligaments in safer ways like eccentric loading. Why add stress to the ligaments that doesn't need to be there? I'm probably biased because I have preexisting knee issues.

>>35075659
Underrated

>>35077677
umm, what exactly would you suggest to "eccentrically load" the ACL with?

i'm thinking about 1rm attempts where surely most of the ligament tears happen outside of just stupid training. as far as i know, the ligaments tear in these cases mostly cause your form is altered, causing imbalanced loading on the ligaments. since leg extensions place a lot of stress on your ligaments, could they be utilized to make the ACL stronger to better endure these 1rm attempts in for example squats?

>>35077738
Do sprints and plyometrics and unilateral exercises like weighted step-ups if you want to strengthen your ligaments, tendons, stabilizers

When you build up to stepping onto a 12 inch platform with 315 on your shoulders you won't have weak connective tissues

>>35077782
At what stage of training (intermediate, advanced, novice e.t.c) can I justify doing these?

>>35077782
those aren't really that well progressively overloaded (except step-ups, maybe) and they involve the hamstrings pulling on the knee, unlike leg extensions. you could just as well squat and your ACL would get stronger. my point is to strengthen the ligaments even better through leg extensions.

like if you had trouble keeping your shoulders retracted in heavy benches due to weak traps/rhombs. would you describe push-ups/dips or deadlifts/chins/rows, which place way higher stress on the musculature required?

>>35077816
That's difficult to answer. I'm a sprinter and I do step ups to build explosiveness and leg drive, and strengthen the stabilizers.
You need to have some sort of goal in mind and really watch your form because the risk if injury is great if you aren't careful.

If you do them start very light, 10 rep range.

>>35077838

Why so obsessed with leg extensions? All progressively overloaded exercises strengthen the connective tissues. I only suggest unilateral ones because they develop the motor pathways and stabilizers that further play into guarding your joints from injury.

>>35077738

typically, step-downs and eccentric squats. But you may be right in that my thinking of OKC work as rehab only and not prehab could be a little close-minded. Most of the literature surrounds ACL reconstruction and is somewhat inconclusive

>>35078045
>Why so obsessed with leg extensions?
maybe read the thread? the hamstrings do not pull on the knee in leg extensions, unlike most leg exercises. this leads to the ACL having to counter the force produced by the quads alone, loading it way harder.
>>35078078
well, i dont think leg extensions really work the way i suggest, its just a theory. but its a fun thought.

i googled some more and the stress on the ACL is not the only thing thats dangerous in leg extensions, but also the tibia getting pulled forward so that the way it "grinds" against the menisci and similar tissues is altered. i dont know why leg curls would be any safer, though.

>>35076719
>Got outsmarted, better post fedora

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HEY RETARDS CAN YOU ALL SHUT THE FUCK UP HOLY FUCK I JUST WANNA KNOW ABOUT OPS QUESTION NOT HEAR YOU AUTISTS SCREAM AT EACHOTHER LIKE A BUNCH OF FUCKING MONKEYS FUUUUUCKK

So.............
Is the soleus machine bad for you knees?

>>35078235
NO MOTHER FUCKER

>>35077463
>front squats are an advanced exercise?
clearly, it's rare beginners have enough ankle dorsiflexion
there's more to progress that just intensity

I just did seated calves 1 plate 3x10
No problems whatsoever except I felt it a little too much in medial gastrocnemius head

>>35075659
>zimzamming your heavy duty thick bits in chimpy doodly ding dong hey hey its TrayTrays

I can't even, like literally

>>35075283
The hamstring machine puts an incredible amount of tension on your knees (from the 7-9 o clock position) at a terrible angle.

the angle the calf raise puts the knee at is fine.

>>35078922
then they need work on soft tissue stretching and ankle mobility


it's not a technical lift like snatch

>>35075283
>35075283

A lot of these machines exert force on joints in ways/angles that simply don't happen in nature.

Or place loads on parts of the skeleton that likewise would never normally bear a load.

I don't think any are acutely dangerous, but I likewise don't know of any surveys/studies done about long term use of these machines.

So I choose not to use any that I think fall under that category ,

>>35075707
Places enormous stress directly on the patella tendons and shins.