Redpill me on insulation. Europeans always make fun of americans

>>1130010
What does insulation have to do with sturdiness?

in·su·la·tion
ˌinsəˈlāSH(ə)n/
noun
noun: insulation

• the action of insulating something or someone.
"keep your home warmer through insulation"
• the state of being insulated.
"his comparative insulation from the world"
• material used to insulate something, especially a building.
plural noun: insulations
"fit insulation to all exposed pipes"

>>1130010
>redpill
Back to /pol/ with you.

>>1130013
Is this your first day on 4chan?

>>1130010
american houses are timber frame with timber cladding, maybe aluminium.
thats how we build sheds.
houses are typically concrete block then brick on the outside with a cavity between for insulation. only inner walls that are not load bearing are timber stud.

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>>1130010

The US favored large, relatively inexpensive houses in part due to the sheer size of the landmass it occupies (meaning low population density; a single person could own a lot of land for cheap) and the extreme availability of fast-growing wood.

The thing the Britfags don't seem to get is that this is a conscious tradeoff; we KNOW modern timber-framed constructions aren't necessarily as durable as stone and brick, but at the same time, have a look at pic related. The average US home is roughly TWO AND A HALF TIMES the size of the average home in the UK. The single-bedroom *apartment* I used to live in was larger than a typical London house, and that felt cramped as fuck with a parent and two kids living in it. Granted, most UK homes are 2-story, but still. Most US citizens simply prefer the larger house timber framing can get you for the same dollar, despite the pitfalls.

Ironically, the oh-so-superior brick and mortar construction ain't shit compared to reinforced concrete, or, better yet, steel (which is what I currently plan on using for my future home).

As an aside, timber-framed constructions do better in zones with notable seismic activity, so there's that, too.


...no idea what insulation has to do with any of this.

>>1130010
Insulation aside, wood and masonry homes are (or should be in the first world) built to similar standards for structural strength, with the exception that wood structures can meet seismic codes while unreinforced masonry cannot. Masonry can last longer with minimal maintenance, but that's not a concern when structures are typically torn down for new development instead of maintained for centuries. So wood frame houses are typically larger per dollar and more likely to be designed for modern technology like central air conditioning. Or electricity, for that matter.

>>1130025
Haha. It is cute that you think someplace as large as the US only has one way of making homes. While it is true that we use timber quite a lot of the time, mostly because we didn't cut down every last usable tree during the industrial revolution, there are quite a lot more building techniques in common use. Mostly it is dependant on what is cheap in that region.

>>1130020
No; that's how he knows that OP needs to fuck off back to his shitty containment board.

>>1130010
>>1130038
Adobe master-race

>>1130038
good to know, but this is where the stereotype comes from

>>1130010
>Europeans always make fun of americans for our shitty houses.

only Europeans who are idiots or have never been to America or seen a house being built

new construction would likely have styrofoam concrete forms for pouring the basement foundation and expanding foam insulation for the walls and roof...they're extremely effecient

older houses can still be fine with enough added foam/fill/fiberglass insulation, although an older hvac system would likely be the biggest factor

>>1130038
12 year US residential new construction electrician here. I have never seen just wood. Every house I've done is cinderblock walls, then 1x2 strips off that to drywall. They drill holes in the cinderblock and pump foam into the cavities. The outside of the cinderblock is coated in stucco. The inside is normally all 2x4 or 2x6.

>>1130111
*Cavities of the block. Nothing goes between the fur strips and drywall. My bad

>>1130010
I'm not sure what your asking, but I can tell you that insulation in the US is mostly done with fiberglass/foam barriers on external walls. The R-factor number (like R13 or R30, for example) increases with it's ability to thermally insulate meaning a R13 insulated home in cold weather would have to have the heater on more often and for longer periods of time than a R30 insulated home would (with everything else being the same). One loss of insulation efficiency associated with this method used primarily in new US constructions is an effect called thermal bridging. Thermal bridging occurs when heat moves through the exterior wall through the studs or other adjoining structure that physically connects the exterior side of the wall to the interior side. This happens regardless of the insulation material placed between studs and can put a theoretical cap the amount of thermal isolation a home can really achieve.

Hopefully this helps answers some of your questions before this thread turns back into a US vs Euro dick measuring contest.

>>1130010
>Europeans always make fun of americans for our shitty houses.
No that isn't true. Us in Northern Europe make fun of central and Southern Europe's houses. Those drafty pieces of shit with single windows (I'm looking at you, britbongs!) and nonexistent insulation.
>>1130025
Now please remember that most of central and Southern European countries did cut down their forests way back ago. Therefore there is no local option for timber, they have to cope with what they have. And because people are silly they think that this shit is superior just because they see more of than other shit. There simply is no wood to build from in parts of joirop.

>>1130038
And this is a statement that can be applied to the whole world. It depends on what you have available, most people aren't such fucktards that they would build of something imported and expensive "just because". Most people have a limited budget.

Scandinavia uses wood for construction because its plentiful and relatively cheap. And good enough for most. You will need to replace the exterior at some point but usually that is your children's problem.

The problem with forums like these are that most of the people here are sane but there is the noisy minority of "bwaaaa my thing is best thing". There are several different methods of construction and it depends on the available materials, budget and local conditions how you will make a end product that is good enough. And nothing needs to be perfect, you just need to decide what the acceptable level is when it is good enough.

Timber vs masonry in a tornado?

>>1130347
Tornado destroys them both
But the timber house takes serious wind a lot more before it's damaged

>>1130333
>I'm looking at you, britbongs!


Houses in the UK haven't been built anything like that since post war 1940s. Most houses today are built with an A rating at least.

>>1130333
Better than 9 out of 10 UK houses have double glazing and new builds always havd double and often triple glazing. My mum lives in a 70s single storey retrofitted with 10" of loft insulation, double glazing and cavity wall insulation. House is toasty for minimal heating.

Literally 80% of houses in California built before 1980 do not have any or a very VERY negligible amount of insulation...... I live in a house with a little in the attic, but mostly the only thing insulated is the heater vent...... rofl.... its terribly inefficient. I remodeled a mid sized apartment complex from 1960 and there was ... im not joking..... ZERO insulation under the plywood siding. just 5/8" painted and caulked ply, 3.5" of air and then drywall.

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>>1130010

We make fun of american houses because they're made of wood, which is flimsy and rots over time. It's really hard to fathom with so many tornadoes over there too. Insulation has nothing to do with it.

But on the topic of insulation - the US idea of it is fiberglass stuffed inside the walls since they're hollow, with that then covered off with drywall. European houses are made of bricks and concrete, and insulation usually comes in the form of expanded polystyrene sheets attached to the outside walls and then sealed off with stucco.

>>1130038
fun fact: due to rising CO2 levels, the trees in the US are growing out of control. our timbered acreage has gotten bigger despite more harvesting.

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>>1130375
>its terribly inefficient.
It's fucking california. You don't really need insulation.

>>1130453
>We make fun of american houses because they're made of wood, which is flimsy and rots over time.
Canuck here, we also make fun of american construction but because it's generally very cheap. Things like roofs that literally just sit on top of the house and aren't even nailed down, using shitty siding tacked right onto timber struts instead of proper stone/brick/stucco/whatever facades, etc.

Also american houses are just plain ugly.

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>>1130463

>>1130047
>containment board
It's one of the largest boards you salty nigger.

>>1130463

Yeah, the concept of a "crawlspace" baffled me too - where the house literally has no foundation in the ground and just sits there on a bunch of planks and rocks. I think this is mostly a suburban thing, as US city buildings are built properly and are generally on a completely different level.

>>1130347
Can you fucking morons at least use the right terms. Timber frame is large dimensional timbers that are mortise and tenon joined to make very strong structure that will last hundreds of years of maintained properly. Stick framing is using 2x material to construct walls which is a relatively new building method compared to timber framing. Brick veneer is brick outside walls with stick framed walls inside. Cinder block construction is nice if you're building a prison but looks like shit in my opinion.

>>1130487
It's a large containment board, duh.

>>1130487
Congrats. There is a lot of shit in the sewage treatment plant, too. Just 'cause you live in a giant cesspool and it performs a needed function doesn't mean anyone else wants to deal with your shit. So, get back with all the other pieces of night soil, turd.

>>1130495

It doesn't. The house is bolted to the foundation with the benefit of having easy access to plumbing and electrical (as in pipes aren't cemented in the foundation and replaceable) and electrical is actually somewhat accessible without tearing out a wall.
Why are europoors so stupid?

>>1130503
Sewage treatment plants don't make up most of a town.
Back to whatever shithole you cam from, faggot.

>>1130013
>>1130047
>being this new
nice try faggot

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>>1130495

In Los Angeles and other western coastal areas, Post and Beam houses with crawlspaces are built due to the expansive clay soil native to these areas. The clay soil expands and swells on a 12 month seasonal cycle when the rains come. Having less of the foundation contacting the soil is better here because there is less contact on the expanding soil, so less chance the house will shift over time. Also you get the added bonus of incredibly easy home repairs. (Being able to crawl under your house to add wires or plumbing, vs jack-hamering up your foundation if you want to do any work at all)

>>1130507
Crawl spaces collect dust and breed bacteria, mould and fungi that will effect your health. They also allow vermin and insects to move around your house easily.

If a house is designed well with future expandability in mind then you don't need crawl spaces

>>1130543

No read

>>1130536


If they are made properly they are dry year around. Spoilers: I grew up and manage a property stick framed with a crawl space built in 1950 in the pacific northwest (i.e. more rain than you). And I live in one currently that was built in 1942. And both are dry year around with no mold or rot issues. You don't have a fucking clue.

>>1130557
Its possible to grow moulds and other nasties in dry conditions, and even aside from shit growing you could be building up other particle irritants or making the perfect home for rodents. Not to mention a good portion of home owners will never check the crawl space which may be harbouring damp and they have no idea.

There are literally thousands of pages talking about the health risks of crawl spaces for a reason.

I guess they would be useful that one time each decade you need to access all the plumbing and electrics right down to the foundations, but as long as you're not buying a shitheap that will never really be necessary.
I used to own a house that was slowly sliding down a mineshaft, the whole thing needed underpinning and there was still no need to jackhammer up any floors.

>>1130561

Vapor barriers and proper insulation in the crawlspace eliminates all these issues. They haven't been a problem for a while now

>>1130563
you're assuming every single house is perfect in design + construction and has an owner who fastidiously maintains it. For the layman who doesn't give a fuck they will only realise there's a problem when their whole family has breathing problems and a rat infestation.

>>1130567

Well you could make that claim for any fucking house. If the owner is an idiot who doesn't know how to maintain it, it will eventually have problems.

Tell me whatever you want about building materials, but I for one really like german windows. I even did my apprenticeship in a company that made the interlocking system of rails and bolts that moves when you turn the handle.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PCudaPpwoAM

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My knowledge of houses is nothing worth contributing but I will add this:

Climatic considerations between Western Europe and North America as a whole (particularly the 13 original colonies of the USA since they have some older houses usually) are pretty different which could explain differences in insulation.

Europe is basically a peninsula off Asia, all that water around it gives it a more mild climate. It is both somewhat less hot in summer than it would if it was like the US and even more "less cold" than it would be.

Look at map and you'll see what I mean, Look how high up London is. I have literally seen palm trees around London and the most frost-tolerant palm tree species I am aware of can't handle anything lower than agricultural zone 7 at best (northern Georgia would be their USA limit). It's oddly mild for how high up it is.

It also often gets hotter in the summer too (this is why heat waves are more disastrous in Europe apparently, because people are less prepared for the heat people get daily in the US, even New England, during summer). It's possible some areas even outside of the Deep South desired houses that "carried a breeze" due to how hot it can get but I have no evidence.

I'm also kinda curious if people have tested the insulation factors of the stereotypical American vs European buildings and actually found a difference in performance not related to weather differences.

>>1130463
Burger here. McMansions are a fucking disgrace.

>>1130583
Yeah I know, just stating that crawl spaces are yet another item homeowners have to worry about maintaining when in a lot of cases its not even necessary.

>>1131692
Those windows aren't exclusively German, had them in the UK and Czech republic.

Also had them in my student accommodation, once I saw somebody desperately trying to open one to vomit out of but they turned it to the lean opening and ended up just being sick on the glass and all over themselves

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>>1130453
>insulation usually comes in the form of expanded polystyrene sheets attached to the outside walls..

yeah - heres [pic related] a good example of the current standard of Bong Public Building, with exposed cross-section for ease of modern-day insulation technique understanding.

Thats a ca. 10 year old _primary school_ building BTW, where the slightly younger than that pupils learn, how not to architect. Remember folks - a brick dropped on a small childs head from two storeys or more, its a lesson learned for life, albeit, this maybe of shorter duration than planned.

Because we have insulation between "our" two STONE walls. Glass wool insulation works also for wood. I think you are a little retarded for starting a thread saying all this stuff and Europe is not a country. EVERY country in Europe is completely different and has different methods of building houses. For example here in Holland we don't mountains or stone soil. So basically over 70% of our houses are made from bricks. Most people in Holland don't have an AC. We all have double glass, true single layered glass you loose lot of heat which you don't want.

>>1130111
I bet you live in FL or somewhere in SW US.

>>1130347
Hurricane? Concrete block pls with tile roof.

Tornado will level either.

>>1131799
That was one bad construction company

Meanwhile 55,000 bridges in the US are deemed unsafe, people in glass houses etc

>>1130026
youre an idiot, the largest homes (Australian) are dominantly brick.

insulation has a lot to do with this, compare the insulation of brick to wood.

>>1132089

1.) Literally nowhere in that post is "insulation" mentioned, except in explicitly questioning what that had to do with anything.

2.) I STILL have no idea what the fuck you're talking about, since brick is thermally conductive as fuck compared to wood. At best, it's roughly 4 times as conductive as the usual white pine found in any lumber yard. ~0.6W/m-K for relatively low-conductivity brick, vs 0.15W/m-K for white pine; could easily be over 1W/m-K for brick, depending on what it's made of.


I'm almost inclined to think you responded to the wrong post.

>>1130347
>Timber vs masonry in a tornado?

Neither. Reinforced concrete safe room or shell covered with something esthetic.

>>1130038
This is so genuinely embarrassing

>>1131799
>Warning CCTV in operation
>Cameras everywhere
>Building falling apart
>Men in bright reflective safety clothing with hard hats so they can point at a wall

This has to be the most British picture in the world.

>>1132062

There are a total of 590,111 bridges in the USA

in the UK there are 413

yes, USA has 1500x more than the whole united fucking kingdom

And your statistics include just requiring simple maintenance, not arbitrarily "unsafe"

>yes, i'm mad you ignorant motherfucker!

>>1132147

>in the UK there are 413

No.

>>1132147
The criteria for a bridge to be unsafe in this study is 'bridges with one or more major components in advanced deterioration'

These aren't even backwater bridges either, many of them are critical infrastructure. 2000 of them are interstate highway bridges.

Also there are far more than 413 bridges in the UK. There's probably far more than that in London alone

>>1130026
>Ironically, the oh-so-superior brick and mortar construction ain't shit compared to reinforced concrete, or, better yet, steel (which is what I currently plan on using for my future home).

This. I lived for 17 years in an Edison house in Wilkes-Barre, PA. Goddamn thing had 2 foot thick reinforced exterior walls, and the interior walls were 4" thick with plaster and lath. Extremely efficient. Even with the frozen fuck winters in NEPA, I'd only have to run about $60 in oil a month in the furnace. House was cooled with just two 15,000 BTU window units and ceiling fans. One of those "idea way too far ahead of its time" situations. I miss that house terribly.

>>1130010
R values=scam

>>1132335
this. air intrusion and windows become the bigger factors for heat exchange after even the most rudimentary insulation layer.

>>1132247

No, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_bridges_in_London

there are 33 on that list. do you eurofags even try?

>>1132356
>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_bridges_in_London
That is a list of bridges in London *with wikipedia pages*

according to your logic, there are more rivers in london than there are bridges
>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Rivers_of_London

>>1132089
>the largest homes (Australian) are dominantly brick.
Yeah, but most of it is just brick veneer with the majority having structural timber/steel frames.

>>1130062
The 1950's, housing developments, low income housing.

>>1130347
As everyone else has said. Tornado destroys just about everything above ground except reinforced concrete. And even that can occasionally be chancy depending on what projectiles the tornado decides to pick up.

What most people don't get about tornados is just how fucking fast they go. F0 tornados (~half the yearly US tornado count) are up to 72mph. A F5 starts at ~260mph. Thankfully those are very rare, because almost fucking nothing survives a direct hit from that shit.

Huricanes on the other hand cause much of the their damage with the storm surge and people being retarded about battening shit down. A cat one is ~75-95mph and a cat 5 is 157mph or more.

Consider the following. The fastest recorded hurricane wind speed is 190mph. The fastest recorded tornado wind speed is 318mph.

In summary, basements save lives. I can't handle living in places where you can't reasonably have a basement. It makes me extremely uncomfortable.

>>1130047

>asks a legitimate construction question
>FUCK OFF BACK TO UR CONTAINMENT BOARD OMGZ

>>1130010
never heard that before but first of all

>europeans

there is a huge difference between euro homes, spanish homes for instance wouldn't need the same typ of insulation as norway would.

our houses are made of bricks and concrete, that's why they cost double or triple the average wood murican house

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>>1130052
mah nigga

>>1133248

>Tornado destroys just about everything above ground except reinforced concrete.

Maraging steel is also an option.

>>1130026
No, we do get it but you yanks DO have some monumentally stupid setups on your houses. Your general construction is fine when used with decent non-rot materials and adequate insulation but your gutter systems - wtf! The lip is higher on the outside than the side against the house so as soon as the gutters fill to overflowing, the water flows into the soffits and into the ceilings!

>>1133857

Whut? No. All continuous gutter extruders over here roll the outside lip over so it's lower.
We -KNOW- water will spill over the lower edge, dumbass. We've plenty of experience with dams.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_Oroville_Dam_crisis

>>1131707
The British Isles get the ocean current all the way from the Bermuda Triangle

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>>1130503
Try harder

>>1130111
you live in tornado alley then