why isnt japanese carpentry more popular? the joinery is stronger

>>1123907
because it's overcomplicated and requires very straight grained woods

>>1123912
its complicated but not overly so.

>>1123907

because we have nails

Because we have pocketscrews

>>1123907
You don't have to go to those lengths to avoid screws.
I make stuff all the time with basic joints and wood glue.
Maybe some dowels.

>>1123924
Why is this a meme? What's wrong with pocket holes? They work fine for many things

>>1123907
They lack the required resources. Cost too much to ship boat loads of screws.

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>master hundreds of different joints when two will do 99% of what you need

>>1123930
So do sheets of particle board, plastic veneer, and staples.

>>1123907
The same reason traditional western carpentry joints aren't more popular: because you can't train a half drunk high school drop out only making $12 an hour to knock out hundreds of them in a day.


Furniture is expensive. Shitty furniture at that. Good furniture is really expensive. Really nice furniture with fancy carpentry joints and pretty woods? Jesus fuck, a dining room set costs as much as a new BMW. Not even kidding.

>>1123907
You answered your own question.

99% of the furniture people have in their homes is mass produced. Your "little longer" is in fact "significantly longer" and time is money. Screws are cheap and machines can drill and pilot all the holes. Plus most furniture comes in flat packs these days to save significantly on shipping. Are you really going to trust Suzy home-maker to assemble a hand crafted table using Japanese joints? When she breaks it, she is bringing it right back to you for a full refund.

>>1123952
>because you can't train a half drunk high school drop out only making $12 an hour to knock out hundreds of them in a day.

How so? You just insert one end into the machine and it will CNC-carve the joint on it.

Because the rest of the world its built by mexicans (or their nearest equivalent) and nails are cheaper than skill.

>>1123975
But normally you just don't need a CNC machine just to join some parts together.

>>1123907
Labor is expensive. This is a problem even for "normal" carpentry.

Mass produced stuff is 70% as good for _far_ less money.

>>1123907

this isn't unique to the Japanese, any talented master carpenters can do this

the Amish make joint-only carpentry as well and its expensive as fuck

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amish_furniture#Styles

>>1123907
Silly you OP. Ask again when you have bought a dining table made with joinery like that.

>>1123912
fpbp

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>>1123943
1: It is applied sciences made into an art.
2: You don't understand sheer forces, tension forces, compression forces, and bending-moment resistance values; among other things.

>>1123907

Because it is primarily circle jerking and elitism

>>1124059
>You don't understand sheer forces, tension forces, compression forces, and bending-moment resistance values; among other things.
neither do you, so shut the fuck up.

>>1123907

>2017
>wood isn't as strong as wood glue

True story. While joinery like this can be pleasing aesthetically to some people, It's not cost effective. Those who want to pay the premium can do but they will be few and far between.

>>1124059
>You don't understand sheer forces, tension forces, compression forces, and bending-moment resistance values; among other things

What, you think Japanese craftsmen in the 1500s sat down and ? No, at best, they had a vague, intuitive grasp of the forces involved.

Most of the fancy joints were only used BECAUSE they were fancy joints. Remember, this is the Japanese we're talking here. Traditional culture has this weird preoccupation with aesthetic flying in the face of practicality.

Box joints, dovetails, mortise/tenon, and slight variations of those do, indeed, cover almost the entirety of practical joinery. If you want to use some hyper-specialized joint to eek another 10% breaking strength out of the joint, fine. But, fact is, the vast majority of the more unusual joints are/were used explicitly to show off. That's why they fell out of favor in more practical woodworking; they're usually much more difficult to produce, and offer no or minimal benefit.

>>1124110
they were used because of religious reasons for some part, and are prt of the reason why japanese temples are some of the oldest standing wooden structures

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>>1123907
is there a router jig

>>1124110
dovetails are used to show off now too, box joints are stronger.
Also, until 1970's glue was just awful, and plywood would delaminate on humid days without really good edge banding. Nails and screws will tear themselves loose in 20-30 years due to expansion/contraction of the wood if they're in a building with no insulation or humidity control.
So the fancy joints that were a bitch but also mechanically strong without glue had a point. Had.
Oh, also really fancy joinery in 1800's camp furniture because needed to be sturdy+comfy+light and portable on a camel.

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>>1123912
>overcomplicated

>>1123907
> the joinery is stronger

wait, what?

Joinery is stronger because it uses 4 times the amount of wood than any nailed or glued joint.

All the japanese carpentry uses a shit ton of wood.
It was designed for Kiri, one of the softer woods in the world.

>>1124199
They are old standing wooden structure, but they are constantly repaired. It's like saying you got your great great great grandfathers axe and it's two hundred fifty years old. Handle has been replaced ten times and the head three times.

>>1124110
>>1124106
>kids talking out their asses on /diy/ again

Reminds me of Mr. X. lol

Superior japanese wood, folded 10000 times.

>>1124283
THIS

it severely weakens the structure of the wood and it way more time consuming to produce

>>1124015
It's cheaper to have a CNC produced than to train a master-jointer

>>1123907
>joinery is stronger
>it takes a little while lomger
>its also simplistic
>allows for easy disassemble

Answered your own question right there. First world countries are plagued with planned obsolescence.

The first lightbulbs hardly ever went out, eventually a committee came together to create standards all bulbs must meet, including lifespan caps.
The man that created nylon stockings was told his original design was too durable, every person would only become a single sale because their stockings would last forever. He had to go back to the drawing board and redesign so they would become damaged

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>>1124059
>2: You don't understand sheer forces, tension forces, compression forces, and bending-moment resistance values; among other things.
Understanding these as I do, I know that the fancy joint you posted is weaker than a glued scarf joint. Fancy joints like that predate the invention of good glue, and are made to hold together without it. But today's wood joining technology offers better performance with simpler joints.

>>1124349
>The first lightbulbs hardly ever went out, eventually a committee came together to create standards all bulbs must meet, including lifespan caps.
Apparently you don't know how incandescent lightbulbs work. The hotter the filament, the more blackbody radiation is in the visible range, and the greater the luminous efficiency. But the hotter the filament, the shorter the filament life, to a much greater degree than efficiency gains. The committee's decision was scrapped sixty-some years ago, but that tradeoff still determines optimal performance for different kinds of lights, resulting in relatively short lifespans for consumer incandescent bulbs. You can get specialty long-lasting bulbs, but you will pay a lot more for the electricity to produce the same light at a lower filament temperature. This is worth it in applications where it's troublesome to physically change bulbs, but that's not what most peopler deal with.

And DuPont isn't the only supplier of nylon today. Do your nylon clothes last forever? Nylon ropes and backpacks much more durable than any stocking material wear out like any other material. Planned obsolescence is a result of optimization. Do you think that most women would want to wear nylons that cost twice as much and were less comfortable (because they're heavier and stiffer) while still being vulnerable to catching on things and tearing? Would you rather use a handkerchief or Kleenex? Would you want to buy a computer built to last for fifty years? You can get all these things, and also fancy joinery, but they're niche products for very good reasons.

>>1124353

> Fancy joints like that predate the invention of good glue

You realize thats probably the dumbest statement ever...Right?

"Good" glue, such as hide glues, have been available for centuries...

Another little bit that'll blow your mind...if you construct a timberfame structure using jap joinery for beams, building inspectors will accept it...they won't accept a glued scarf joint...

Just so your all up to date on this shit there sport...

>>1124230
The Axe of Thesius

>>1124362
>"Good" glue, such as hide glues, have been available for centuries...
>hide glues
>literally gelatin
>water-soluble, biodegradable
>holds on in niches where its phenomenally low strength allows it to reliably break without damaging the wood surfaces being joined, making rework easier

>Another little bit that'll blow your mind
Glued scarf joints are the strongest method of joining wood end to end, and can attain homogenous properties with the pieces being joined. They are the preferred method for such joints in wooden aircraft, which face far more rigorous performance and regulatory hurdles than any timberframe structure. The FAA will accept a scarf joint, but they won't accept Japanese joinery.

>>1124366
I used scarf joints on my skirting board using mitremate which is cyano. Thought I'd test the join strength. The wood broke before the join seperated.

>>1124367
>wood broke before the glue did.
This

My husband has a hardon for the japs. He wanted me to make a kitchen table using "japanese joinery"

The shit is mortice and tennoned with wood glue and the "joinery" is completely faux and glued on.

>tells everyone "see how strong japanese joinery is"
>pull everyone aside later "shh dont tell him but its fake joinery work"

Didnt even read, but its not cost effective. When the country wants cheap and mass produced thats what we give them.

>>1124345

you some sort of cunt? He means a college/ apprenticeship, most joiners and carpenters are on sites building frames, extensions or working in shop on shitty doors etc. Not messing around learning some masterful art form that takes years.

>>1123907
Same reason we don't use single-crystal titanium alloy jet-turbine rotors for bicycle tires.

>>1124231
you must look so cool being a condescending prick refuting an argument without providing anything of use to the discussion.

>>1124362
>"Good" glue, such as hide glues
that's horrible glue. weak and quick to rot away.

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The really fancy stuff is special snowflake show-off tier for no benefit, but I do like some of their simpler joints that are mostly just variants on basic conventional joinery. Like pic related adds some extra style without a crazy amount of extra work involved.

>>1124230
I have my great great grandpas pocket watch, only had to have the battery replaced like 4 times in the last 150 years. True quality

>>1124408
thats not very nice, imagine if you were all amazed about something he did you you and you later found out he half assed it. like got you a bike from kmart and put a "giant" sticker on it. post bench

>>1124658
>not movement powered
ayy

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>>1123907
because japanese carpentry is all about replaceable parts. japanese carpentry is for preindustrial japanese conditions. wood tended to rot very easily in the swamp that is the entire country with extreme humidity, tropical temperatures and cyclones all year outside of cherry blossom tourist season.

take the tori gates for example. the color is not intentional, it's just the only thing that worked. first they blacked the stumps, painted them with tar and or ash. then they painted it with a resin mixed with arsenic and mercury, giving that lovely cinabar color and black bases. for whatever reason theyre building them out of steel now instead when wood lasted fine for hundreds of years but i guess the workers dont want to be breathing milled cinnabar all day.

It's very difficult, but in so honesty some of the joints, even if they look really cool and innovative, they aren't very strong.

>>1124877

> they aren't very strong.

Build a multistory building that withstands centuries of use...

Really makes you think...

>>1124230
and this is the brilliance of japanese joinery. any part you can just pop out the dowel and it comes out, new one goes in.
>>1124357
good point. the number of people who need a satellite to last for 50 years is very small. there are only a handful of probes with this life span in mind ever built. the CPUs cost about 10 million dollars each just to manufacture. now the reptillian conspiracy gives you more than the computing power of the entire apollo mission for less than $60 but you complain when it breaks after a year or two.

Might be because most people don't live in earth quake regions.

>>1124891
Misunderstanding

It isn't the joints that keep Japanese buildings up for centuries

They were one of the first carpenters that realized the importance of slow drying the wood, and the importance of treating the wood.

They also put a shit ton of maintenence into those buildings to the point you would be hard pressed to find a single original piece

>>1123907
Because it's hard, laborious and time intensive. You can stamp a steel part to hold two pieces of wood together for a few cents, rather than have a journeyman spend a day or two just cutting tenons and slots.

>>1124552
but we should

I wanna go vroom vroom

>>1124216
a lot of people want to glue their dovetails, but glued dovetails aren't as strong as dry dovetails. glued dovetails fail when the corner of the tails sheer off, whereas dry dovetails have to compress the wood until it slips. its true that glued box joints are stronger than both, though.