How is it, despite numerous successes (PPG, Horse Show, Kim Possible,

>>95327252
>What the fuck needs to happen for them to finally ditch that mindset?

They haven't? Steven Universe and Star Vs. probably have the biggest fanbases of any current shows, and no I don't care what anybody says Steven Universe is a girls show

>>95327280
Yes, but Steven Universe quite clearly started off without Steven, with Sugar only making Steven the focus to get greenlit.

I don't go in for this tumblr gender bullshit, but there are a lot of people that worked for CN that said the amount of shows with female MC's that get greenlit are few to none.

>>95327252
the crux of the issue is the belief that cartoons, and by extension the toys they are advertising, are more profitable when segregated into 'for girls' and 'for boys' since it means you can double down on targeting the demographic each block is aimed at. they don't want there to be much overlap because they don't want girls tuning in during the time of day where they are blasting all the ultra machismo action figure ads and they don't want boys tuning in when they are blasting their barbie sparkle girlpower ads, because they fear they'll just change the channel rather than wait for the commercial break to end

with the rising market of on-demand services, one might hope this would change, although probably via google style advertisement curators that track what you watch, profile your interest, and only show the kids ads they think will appeal to them.

>>95327280
Steven is a boy protagonist though.

It's the same thing with Loud House, a million side girl characters, but it stars a boy. That seems to be the main way to slide past the radar for some reason.

>>95327314
There's also the double standard of people are fine with girls wanting to grow up to be Captain America and dress up as Superman, but are afraid boys won't do the same for Wonder Woman coupled with the fact that a lot of parents are afraid of their little boys dressing up as girls in case it might "turn into" something. Or maybe they're afraid the other kids will beat them up, but I don't know if bullying is an epidemic that plagues 6 year olds.

>>95327252
>still see those statues in Local Comic Shops every now and again
Really should just pick up THICC Kara at this point

>>95327311

Steven is based on her brother. He's always been a huge part of the show. Right down to the drastically different pilot.

>>95327412
>>95327311

yeah, whered this rumor about creating steven to appease higher-ups come from?

its called STEVEN UNIVERSE ffs

>>95327311
I don't know if that's true or if it isn't, but in either case having a male protag doesn't make it a show targeting males right off the bat

I can't think of anything about Steven Universe that is appealing to young boys, Steven is about ten times more femme than Spike the dragon and the show clearly caters to females, not saying that's a bad thing either, but it's no Beast Wars or Batman TAS

From what I've seen Steven Universe is about a femme boy, strong girls who are the real heroes, and pastel colors and cutesy SOL awkwardness....it's a "girl show" even if Steven is the title character, the support characters are more important than him anyway it seems to me from what I've seen

>>95327508
>I can't think of anything about Steven Universe that is appealing to young boys
its a show about a lazy but well-meaning kid who just want to eat food and hang out with his friends, fighting monsters an getting roped into an intergalactic war
pretty typical kid hero for a boys show

>>95327252
Because, let's face it: female characters just aren't as interesting as male ones. Not even trying to start shit about why that is, but it's a fact.

>>95327559

He's a fucking pussy the likes of which Shinji Ikari would find grating

>>95327599
boys these days are different from when you were young, anon

>>95327586
I disagree.

>>95327252
How the fuck do you make a remotely realistic action show with a female protagonist? Girls are slow and weak, and just giving them (and not the guys) superpowers to overcome that turns them into Mary Sues.

>>95327632
Nice argument you got there.

>>95327638
i hope this is bait

>>95327644
I wasn't trying to argue?
That person said it's a 'fact' and I disagree with that.
Not everything is an argument. Get off the Internet for a while.

>>95327252
Because executives are idiots who only care about short term profits

>>95327645
Why would it be bait?

>>95327452
name changes happen, anon

>>95327654
because you sound like youre trying to provoke idiotic arguments

see: you pretending to be someone else in this same thread >>95327644

>>95327674
>pretending to be someone else
I'm sorry, what? I'm not pretending to be anyone.
Nor am I trying to provoke anyone, for that matter.

>>95327696
I guess you're just a moron, then.

>>95327706
If I'm a moron, what does that make you?

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>>95327716

>>95327252
>PPG, Horse Show, Kim Possible, Star Vs
Thing is, how many years apart were those?

>>95327973
No more further apart compared to other hit shows (Rugrats, Spongebob, Adventure Time, Loud House). A hit cartoon in general only happens every couple of years.

I only listed popular because the point was that they COULD make money and that a hit cartoon was not exclusive to just boy heroes. I wouldn't be able to prove the point if I listed stuff like Hi Hi Puffy, The Buzz on Maggie, Pepper Ann, Miraculous Ladybug, Atomic Betty, Juniper Lee, etc.

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>>95327311
>people posting on this board actually believe this baseless lie regurgitated by tumblr-shitters

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>>95327252
>executives STILL believe in the idea that shows with girl protagonists don't sell?

Except they don't? They literally changed the sex of the Mysticons because girls sell.

http://lostmediawiki.com/Mysticons_(lost_original_version_of_animated_series;_2013-2015)#Development

>>95328257
And The Modifyers got passed up because they weren't interested in a girls show while Fanboy & ChumChum and Breadwinners got greenlit.

And Super Best Friends Forever and Princess Amethyst got passed up in favor of Steven Universe because Faust said "the network only wanted one girls show, and they chose Steven".

And Twelve Forever and Infinity Train seem like they're getting passed up on because of the failure of nuPPG.

>>95327586
All my favorite characters growing up were female, so I don't know what to tell you.

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>>95328257
>"lost"
>in development by a studio

This wiki is so retarded in its definition of "lost".

By that definition, every yet-unreleased movie that's still in development is "lost".

Fucking retards.

>>95328435
The correct definition of "lost media" is media that has been released to the public but has no known surviving copies.

Any other media is simply either "unreleased" or "rare".

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>>95327252
>>95328257
When idiots stop letting idiots in charge(reddit, tumblr, jews/turks/indians) of multi-million and multi-billion franchises.

With how low the bar has been set by these mental defects, I myself could create a bunch of high-standard cartoons and get the sweet 10x bonus gains because everyone is so used to being fed shit. But I don't have that kind of money to start my own cartoon shows.

it should be illegal for people over fifty to not retire

>>95328911
Instead you post memes and make excuses while the people you previously mentionned worked and got a position where they wanted

>>95328911
Imagine being this deluded.

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>>95327252
>executives STILL believe in the idea that shows with girl protagonists don't sell?
Apparently the do because DC Superhero girls is pretty fucknig popular

>>95329516
Never seen the show but holy shit does that look stiff as fuck. Also
>Harley
>Hero

Were they desperate for girl superheroes or something and just start converting to fill the list? One of the biggest appeals to people is that Harley is a bad girl.

>>95329546
harley = suicide squad = hero = toys for markerting.

>>95329546
When you have a toyline whose entire gimmick is DC characters reinvisioned as Barbie dolls, you want to make sure the characters you choose are easily identifiable as DC characters (and the obscure character slots were already filled by diversity picks). That didn't really leave them many options for front-runners, so they had to resort to using Harley Quinn and Poison Ivy to fill out the roster.

>>95327345
>There's also the double standard of people are fine with girls wanting to grow up to be Captain America and dress up as Superman
I don't think girls should do this. Just like I don't think boys should dress as female characters.

>>95329546
The creators of the series joke about that and say it all goes downhill for harley after high school

>>95327973
Horse show and Star Vs are airing simultaneously so...Can't be that much.

>>95329516
There's also the Disney Princess lineup and all those Monster Girls stuff. Girls buy toys.

It's totally about marketing and selling toys / clothes, etc. Which is kinda sad because the idea of toys being specifically for boys or girls is a relatively recent thing - like 80s-early 90s recent. Before that toys were just toys - action figures were called dolls and it was okay for boys to have them. It's just taking a long time to unlearn the bad lessons of the 80s because a lot of business are still in that era mentally.

>>95327586
>, but it's a fact.
We need to run this through the scientific method before it can even come close to being a fact. too bad not even sociasl scientists will do studies on what type of fictional arc types people like.

>>95329768
>action figures were called dolls and it was okay for boys to have them
This is absolute bullshit. They were called dolls, yes, but they if you were a boy and had Raggedy Anne or Andy you get your ass kicked, were called faggot and nobody cared.

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>>95329768
So did those ideas rise as a result of more and more people graduating with business-related degrees, or did it naturally stem from observation of following trends throughout the 40's - 70's and seeing things like Star Trek or comic books mostly having a male audience?

>>95328393
>And Twelve Forever and Infinity Train seem like they're getting passed up on because of the failure of nuPPG.
The main reason why nuPPG is failing isn't because it's a girl's show, dingbat.

>>95327252
You're looking in the wrong place. It's not that she shows don't sell, it's that the show MERCHANDISE doesn't sell. And the show merchandise doesn't sell most often because it's either not toyetic enough or they don't have the right cast to support a toy line.
And the reason for this is simple. Not enough villains.
Look at GI Joe. You have a billion Joes, but you also need abillion Cobra guys. Autobots and Decepticons are a 50/50 split. TMNT? Four turtles, and yes, you give them different outfits and tanks and shit, but you also have to have those foot soldier figures.
Girl protagonists aren't the problem. The problem is the antagonists they're paired with, or the lack thereof. And that's never going to change because the mindset of is to create role models for young girls. Which is noble, but it means they tend to overlook the bad guy.
And you NEED a good bad guy. Star Wars would have been overlooked from day one if not for Vader.

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>>95329849
Yes, we know that.

But execs aren't that smart.

>>95329821
It's funny because Lego Friends/Elves sells. Turns out lots of girls like girly shit, what a surprise.
No one's preventing girls from buying normal legos anyway.

>>95329816
When I was growing up, it was pretty normal for boys to have something like a Cabbage Patch Kid or Andy doll laying around the room somewhere. Nobody really gave each other shit about it, because we'd all gotten one as a gift at one point or another. We'd mostly just let them lay around the room unless we needed a giant to attack the action figures.

The successes are seen as flukes, while the failures are taken to speak for the entire concept of a girl-oriented show.

>>95329882
Except the occasional strict parent.

>>95329850
I think youre onto something

>>95329919
I had a puppy stuffed animal, it's literally still around somewhere. That's a bit different than a kid playing with dolls which was much more contemptible.

You wouldn't call you friend out if you saw a pile of laundry in his room and there was a cum stain on a sock or something. You would absolutely call him out if you saw a shit stain.

>>95330090
Just look at >>95329516
Harley and Ivy can't be evil, they have to be role models too for some reason. And it's not the lack of options, because you could just stick Hawkgirl or Raven or Starfire in those spaces, couldn't you? Or hell, Catwoman? at least there's some precedence for her being an anti-hero there.

Without a strong antagonistic cast, or at bare minimum, character, there's no real conflict. Which is why girl shows have the stigma of being slice of life comedies about friendship where are's no stakes. The protagonists are often derided as mary sues not because of what they're doing, but because they aren't going up against anything well crafted or threatening.

>>95329546
It's a kids' show, the bad girls gets to be slightly naughty instead of full-on mass mudering fuckheads. I'm sorry you don't get enough edge along with your pedophile jollies watching kids' cartoons, but it's not made for you.

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>>95330326
There are antagonists in the series. Female Lex Luthor, Brainiac, Giganta, Eclipso, and a school run by Sinestro

>>95330471
Damn there's some serious projection in this post I'm a bit worried the next time you open your mouth a movie is gonna play.

>>95327599
And yet he's accomplished more then Shinji could ever hope to achieve.

>>95330493
Is it enough tho?

>>95330555
Fuck off back to your hole, Byrne.

>female protags don't sell
Tell that to the anime industry.

>>95327666
>Look up developmental names for SU.
>They all have Steven's name in them.

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>>95330700
Proving once again that it's okay when Japan does it.

That's not true though, it hasn't been true for years. There are plenty of shows with girl protagonists.

>>95329624
You're a part of the problem.

>>95328452
You want three separate autistic wikis instead of just one?

>>95327624
I was the intended audience only four years ago, it's not possible for kids to change that much.

>>95330471
>>>95329546
> It's a kids' show, the bad girls gets to be slightly naughty instead of full-on mass mudering fuckheads.
When I was a kid they killed Optimus Prime so that you knew that shit got real.

>>95330190
>You wouldn't call you friend out if you saw a pile of laundry in his room and there was a cum stain on a sock or something. You would absolutely call him out if you saw a shit stain.

What the fuck, you are a terrible friend. That is the exact opposite of what you should do. Cummies are funny, shit stains are not.

>>95330785
Name me ten currently airing cartoons with a girl protagonist, because I can easily name you ten with a boy.

We Bare Bears
Loud House
Pickle and Peanut
OK KO
Steven Universe
Harvey Beaks
Clarence
Lion Guard
Milo Murphy's Law
Future-Worm

And this is without me having to fall back on superhero shows, shows that are 5+ years old, or duo protagonist shows where a girl and a boy share the spotlight.

>>95329816
All kinds of boys had Raggedy Andys. Look at the My Buddy line, that was during my lifetime. Which leads me to believe that you were either someone who was bullied as a kid by an absolute dick, or you were the dick doing the bullying and are trying to justify it.

>>95329821
The trend was in part that because girls like certain things and colours, people thought that was ALL they liked. The Friends line from Lego is actually a good example despite what you might think, because they've actually done their research and found that many girls want nice pastel colours. But they also made sure not to create a totally different product - it still interconnects with their other legos. Some girls want those pastel colours and to be able to make tree houses and stuff, but many also want to be able to take those same bricks and use those colours to make a badass pirate ship with a female captain.

The problem isn't making stuff more masculine for boys and feminine for girls, but rather declaring that this stuff is only for one sex and the other isn't allowed to play with 'em.

From what I've read sci-fi and comics hasn't had a traditionally more male audience, but the male audience was more vocal, which shifted marketing to cater to that audience and in part pushed female audiences away. Look at pictures from the 50s and 60s of kids reading comics, there's always girls there reading them too, kids swapping comics. Yeah there were gendered comics back then, cowboys vs romance ones, but they weren't really seen as something being for boys or for girls, just for kids.

>>95327311
>>95328250
Didn't Sugar already debunk it?

>>95328393
>And Twelve Forever and Infinity Train seem like they're getting passed up on because of the failure of nuPPG.
It takes YEARS for a show to get from a pilot to an official announcement.

Also, Twelve Forever sucks and doesn't deserve to be greenlit.

>>95328997
>the people you previously mentionned worked and got a position where they wanted
Getting a job with a TV network has far more to do with connections than actual competence. Animation is even worse because there are less positions available. Competence makes up maybe about 20% of the process.

>>95329671
Is Star Vs. actually a hit cartoon with kids though? or is it just something /co/ dwellers are obsessed with?

>>95327252

You are a goddamn idiot OP, you think Executives even botther to watch the shit that their company produces? they were educated and pampered in bullshit all their life and they get invited to interracial gay orgies in yachts all the time so they don't even glance or want to hear anything that has to do wit that crap.

>>95327252
I'm glad they have this idea because all of those shows are awful.

>>95331453
It does very well on digital and streaming platforms. Disney has not release official numbers, all they said is combined with Milo Murphy's Law, the entire series has over 100 mil views. This was around the first season that made them decide to renew Star for a second and third before the second had even finished production.

>>95330941
Then you can't be any older than 15. Underage b&

>>95327586
Thanks, finally someone says it.

>>95331506
>all they said is combined with Milo Murphy's Law, the entire series has over 100 mil views
>the entire series
>100 mil views
If you're going by TV standards, that's nowhere near a hit show. Bravest Warriors, a YouTube cartoon that most of /co/ (let alone normies) hasn't even heard of, has about that many views across the entire series.

>>95331506
>It does very well on digital and streaming platforms.
Nobody gives a shit about those because they barely make any money compared to cable TV.

And on cable TV, SVTFOE is a massive flop.

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>>95329516
But Batman and Superman have to be adults no matter what

>>95331653
>Nobody gives a shit about those because they barely make any money compared to cable TV.
DisneyXD is literally able to sustain itself far better than CartoonNetwork BECAUSE they know how to keep up with the times of digital platforming.

Also Netflix says hi.

>>95331680
>Supes can't be a teen, too
Did I just daydream up Smallville or something?

>>95329516
>>95327252
I thought that only applied to live action movies. Cartoons "for girls" have had repeated successes, but I can't think of the last popular live action movie with a strong female protagonist before Wonder Woman, unless they're all hallmark movies about empowered women, because the last "girl power movie" before that I can think of is fucking ghostbusters

>>95331708
>DisneyXD is literally able to sustain itself far better than CartoonNetwork BECAUSE they know how to keep up with the times of digital platforming.
You're a fucking moron, XD simply has far better shows. Even garbage like SVTFOE is better than pretty much all of CN's current turd shows combined, let alone a gem like GF.

Also, using CamelCase like that makes you look retarded.
>Also Netflix says hi.
Netflix is still irrelevant compared to TV networks, sorry to break it to ya.

>>95331708
Did you even read it the post

>>95329866
I sometimes wish the moderators and executives that meddle so much could speak their story. You have to remember when you read these things that there are tons of times the executives, producers, and moderators change things and we don't hear about it unless the writers complain

>>95331781
>a gem like GF.
AHAHAHA

>>95327638
>How the fuck do you make a remotely realistic action show with a female protagonist?
Someone can't actually be this retarded can they?

>>95329624
Wrong side of the issue to be in.

>>95331731
I think Gotham might have also been a dream

>>95327252
They just need to be made more aware of the massive pervert manchild demographic.

>>95331708
Read: >>95331644

An episode of a TV series gets the same amount of US viewers on its first airing as a viral episode of an online series gets in its entire life, may I remind you online views count people who watched more than once, or even just refreshed due to technical issues. Not even YouTube channels like PewDiePie can compete with TV shows.

It's why, as an aspiring cartoon creator, I don't consider "just make it yourself and put it on YouTube!" a viable option. I have plans on how I could make money to do that, but it would ultimately lead to the show failing.

>>95327314
This is just marketing incompetence. They don't know how to market to boys and girls at the same time so they segregate.

>>95332378
You seem to think YouTube, which has long been denounced as a shit way to capitalize on your product, is the same as something like On Demand, Hulu, or Netflix. It's not.

If we're going by just Season 1 numbers, if we cut that 100 mil in half to take into account Milo Murphy and say the entire Star Vs first season was viewed 50 mil times across viable digital platforms, that means it got roughly 2 mil viewers per episode. Which is higher than the numbers CartoonNetwork and Nickelodeon have been getting on their cable channels.

>>95331918
Gravity Falls is the best cartoon ever made, and /co/'s autistic nitpicking will never change that.

>>95332458
People who go into Business 101 learn about nailing down a specific demographic so you can nail down specifics of what they want and thus cater to them. It's why, if you're pitching an idea, you have to say the specific age range. You can't say "For families" because that's too vague. You have to say it targets 7 - 12 year olds specifically so the people you're pitching can picture exactly the group of people who might be watching your show.

Because technically anything that is suitable for toddlers is suitable "for families". But you wouldn't really use that term when talking about Dora the Explorer or Harvey Beaks.

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>>95327252
Notice four out of 5 shows you named were made by feminists. People like Faust and Nefcy care about is girl power, which is why the make female exclusive content (or at least mostly focus on them) Like they care if female protag content sell well.

>>95331937
You're not even gonna try to address the rest of the post, are you?

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>>95332582

95332618
It's a dumb post to begin with.

>Realistic action show!
Those have stopped existing back in the 80's. It's all about characters with superpowers and magic tech now. We won't have any GI Joes in our generation.

>Giving them powers makes them a Mary Sue!
Is a stupid fucking argument that makes no sense, especially considering Batman is frequently called a Mary Sue for his incredible abilities and it's not like that name-calling has deterred him from being a wide success. Superman also has every power in the fucking book and they've managed to make cartoons with him just fine.

Your post just screams of bait not really worth the (you).

>>95327624
that's true. I was on a city bus today behind some 12 year olds just now and the shit they talked about would have gotten your ass kicked for being a fag a decade ago

>>95329882
Yeah, girls who are dressed by their parents in pink and purple all the time like pink and purple toys. What a surpise, like you say.

>>95332487
>You seem to think YouTube, which has long been denounced as a shit way to capitalize on your product, is the same as something like On Demand, Hulu, or Netflix. It's not.
I don't have a Netflix account, so I can't be sure, but from what I've gathered from statistics, the average Netflix show gets about the same viewership as a viral YouTube show - which is popular by online standards, but not by TV standards.

>that means it got roughly 2 mil viewers per episode. Which is higher than the numbers CartoonNetwork and Nickelodeon have been getting on their cable channels
No it's not. It's higher than the amount of US viewers Cartoon Network and Nickelodeon shows get on their first airing, which doesn't include reruns or viewers outside the US.

Also, online views include people who watched more than once, so there's no guarantee those views are unique.

>>95332617
Wasn't SVTFoE originally supposed to be about some anime-obsessed weirdo who projects as the characters?

>>95332734
You AGAIN seem to think that those streaming sites work the same as YouTube. They do not. Netflix, Hulu, and On-Demand can differentiate between repeated viewings and individual views based on account activity, since you need a subscription to watch certain things.

>>95332734
Netflix is notoriously tight-lipped about its viewership stats, but apparently 6.7 million people watched the Season 4 premiere of Orange is the New Black. Those numbers were collected over only the premiere weekend, which means they probably don't include a significant number of repeat viewings.

Now, those aren't exactly Game of Thrones or Big Bang theory numbers, but it's nothing to sneeze at. Especially considering the structure of Netflix makes it a lot more likely someone will watch that episode a month later than they would an episode on cable.

>>95332899
>Starfan13 should be the main character

>>95327280
SU has a male main character and if I can say this, second season of SVTFOE made Marco the focus of many episodes.

>>95327252
>What the fuck needs to happen for them to finally ditch that mindset?
die

>>95327311
>Sugar says Steven Universe is a boys show
>Starts stuttering when told that's wrong

What are you talking about OP? Girl protagonist shows are a thing, being made, another thing you wanna complain about its that people just prefer boy protagonists, or that we have this weird split of manly men toys for boys/ nice girl toys for girls

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>>95332699
>tfw all my baby pictures had me in white or blue
>tfw I loved the shit out of pink and purple so much that my mom threw out half my closet because she had fucking enough of it

>>95328393
>And The Modifyers got passed up because they weren't interested in a girls show while Fanboy & ChumChum and Breadwinners got greenlit.

Also because of their stupid "You can't have a voice actor be a lead character on more then one running show because that'll confuse stupid kids" rules. Modifyers was produced while Avatar was still going and they both had Mae Whitman.

>>95334260
I recall her saying she disliked gender segregation and made the show for both genders, but I digress.

The whole thing reminds me of the original PPG. A lot of SJWs get salty when you tell them PPG was aimed at a gender-neutral audience, even though Craig McCracken confirmed this many times.

>>95327280
Yes but fans don't determine what gets greenlit. Otherwise Becky Prim, Twelve Forever, and Infinity Train would have been in production ages ago. It's the people in charge who see SU and think they can have their cake and eat it, too. Girl cast with boys lead? Shit, that's the best of both worlds!

Meanwhile the only show on CN with a girl protagonist is nuPPG. A reboot of the original "girls can be leads for shows, too", but a shitty reboot that everyone hates as well.