When does /co/ think marvel went bad? I used to think it was

>>95102319
2004

>>95102319
Avengers Disassembled

>>95102319
Mid 2000's is when the rot started. It's merely been picking up pace since then, with less good titles seeping through the cracks with each passing year. Now we're at a point where they've fucked things up so profoundly it spills over into books that would otherwise have been unaffected, so there is no escape from the butchered, mutilated, sorry thing they're calling the Marvel Universe nowadays.

>>95102362
This, around AD and House of M is when the modern Marvel philosophies of events out the ass and pissing off fans began.

I think House of M was the event that started the massive nosedive in quality control. Of course we've gotten good books since, but the bad's outweighed the good for over a decade.

I don't think it's the writers as much as the editors. Everyone is too scared to hurt feefees, so nobody reads a draft and says "this is trash, do it again". Knowing current Marvel editors, they think all they do is spellcheck.

>>95102319
>I read a few I liked, so it couldn't have been bad then!

It's almost as if the very idea of a whole publisher's output being bad for years at a time when at such a size and scale is nonsense or something.

Overall quality control has been on the decline for decades, but that doesn't mean they "went bad" at some point. It's a continuation of existing trends. There will always be good books popping up every year or so, whether you care for them or not. To pretend it "actually wasn't bad yet" because you liked Avenging but write off people who enjoyed books like Vision is silly.

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>>95102319
I would never touch it but

is this squirrel girl shit still going under this artist

>>95102319
Always. Cape comics have for the most part always been bad, but you only started caring about it when they started going after your sensibilities.

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>>95102530
Yup

1991. There are a few decent things after that but 1991 is a major shift in editorial tone and market strategy.

That change was underway for a while but the snowball was rolling too fast to stop by the time the Simonsons and Claremont left.

>>95102509
Yea, I'll concede in that I probably should've worded my sentiment better, but I think that viewing this current dip in quality as a continuation of a trend is a moot point. It's agreeable that marvel's done something new with alienating a good portion of its readers, saturating itself with events, etc.. To rely on the fact that good exceptions like The Vision and The Ultimates exist as a basis for your claim that this current trend is nothing new is lazy. There's a reason why this current decline's been called to attention more, and I bet you it's more than something as superficial as "muh sjw marvel".

>>95102319
>Talks about Marvel going bad
>Uses Panels from one of the best comics out right now.

For me it was civil war, more specifically the wvents leading up to Civil war.

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>>95103218

>>95103218
go away, Ryan

>>95102319
>left hand
>six fingers
QUALITY
C
O
N
T
R
O
L

CA:CW movie. When the MCC got kicked off the movies.

What lead to them nuking the classics and pushing the new characters as a way of sabotaging the movies, see when Nazi cap started.

Without the classics had to resort to sales tricks to stay afloat.

>>95102319
Sometime around the Disney takeover and the hollowing-out of the editorial staff around 2011. There were still some good books after that, but a lot of what we've been seeing lately - poorly produced books, editing mistakes, the near-inability to make good "bread n' butter" superhero comics - seems to have started around then.

You can say what you want about the original Civil War but it's a well-produced event, while Civil War 2 is just poorly produced and poorly planned all through.

>>95102319
1939

>>95103585
>well-produced
>endless delays
>every tie-in writer disagreeing about who was right
>even Millar himself couldn't really get it across
>stupid, pointless shock deaths
>completely arbitrary sides chosen
>nonsensical ending
almost every problem with CW2 is present in CW1

>>95102319
The 90s.

>>95103585
I'd say Civil War 1 started the trend. It was slow at first but as more quality writers left, editing got worse, and the front office was dominated by Bendis, Alonso, etc by Heroic Age everything was garbage.

>>95103651
>>every tie-in writer disagreeing about who was right
I think CWII was better about this than CWI, I think most writers and Bendis sided with Tony.

>>95102319

There is, and has always been good books and bad ones. It's not complete shit, it never was.

>>95102319

There have been bad comics as long as there have been comics. Just because Captain America's shield drinking blood in the 90s didn't trigger you doesn't mean it wasn't fucking terrible.

>>95102963
I think the decline started in 87, personally, with the first cracks prior to that being Secret Wars 2, the New Universe and X-Factor.

Shame, because Marvel was on fire for the first half of the 80s.

>>95105130
That would be the case if Marvel wasn't selling abysmally right now. Face it, the company's in bad shape and thinking that it's just a passing trend is willfully ignorant.

>>95105355
What's really odd is all of the late 80s artistic triumphs that were surrounded by bad organization. Daredevil by Nocenti and JRJR, Silvestri on X-Men, Gruenwald's Captain America was still on track, Englehart's baffling but awesome Fantastic Four.

Squirrel Girl deserves better than this shit

>>95102319
>When does /co/ think marvel went bad?
Grant Morrison's X-Men run, especially since it laid the foundation for pretty much every horrid thing Marvel's done since then

and this is coming from someone who otherwise is a huge Grant Morrison fan

>>95104981
>most writers and Bendis sided with Tony
Always the progressive, Marvel.

>>95106223
But the biggest problem with post-New X-men X-men is that they undid all the good stuff.

M-Day, for example.

>>95106223
Shut up, Millar.

>>95103316
I'm not sure but I think that's supposed to be the folding of her pinky.

>>95102319
Around Marvel Zombies 4 or 5

>>95106302
the thing is that stuff wouldn't have happened if we hadn't gotten Grant's run in the first place, so it cycles back to being Grant's fault again

>>95107172
>>95106305

>>95102438
>Knowing current Marvel editors, they think all they do is spellcheck.

Heh...and they can't even do that well!

>>95106189
JRJR/Nocenti Daredevil was the standout for me in that era. I wasn't a great lover of the SilvestrI X Men, aside from the Brood on earth/ Genosha stuff. I was really disappointed when Claremont left New Mutants in favor of Simonson, it hurt the book straight away IMO

>>95103246
So basically Disassembled, House of M, New Avengers, and Secret War. Aka Fuck Bendis.

Can someone post some examples of marvel's editing mistakes? I keep seeing posts about it, but I've never encountered anything myself.

>>95104871
Making the Avengers flagship franchise ruined everything. It can work for the movies but not in comics. Otherwise it wouldn't have needed a rebirth back in 96 and again in 97

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>>95102319
This art makes her look like she is suffering from a severe case of whiplash.

>>95102319
Honest question, why marvel pay money for someone to draw this?It's simply terrible and lazy art.

I'd argue that the point of no return, was post-Secret Wars V.

You had an assortment of hope spots between the nightmare that was Avengers Disassembled, House of M, Civil War, One More Day/Brand New Day, Fear Itself, and AvX that could keep the company going.

It wasn't until post-Secret Wars V that Marvel pretty much killed everything remotely good company-wide.

Everything went to shit after Secret Wars V.
All the major franchise books were fucked, the rape of the X-Men was in full swing along with the rape of Captain America, Uncanny Avengers became a generic Avengers book, FF was gone, Avengers was crawling with minority tokens, Scarlet Witch/Vision once again irrevocably broken up, and two of the most toxic crossovers happened back to back (Civil War 2 and Secret Empire).

The hilarious thing though? Fucking Hickman saw it coming: he even wanted to have the first issue of the Secret War V titled "The Perfect Jump Off Point". He fucking knew what was coming.

>>95107864
The funny thing?

Secret War 4 would have been a far far far far better story to have gotten rid of the Classic Avengers line-up/introduce the Bendis Avengers.

Basically, Clint/Wanda/Vision/Carol/Thor rage-quit over Cap being involved with Fury committing mass murder.

She-Hulk leaves the team to help Scott Lang mount a case to win back custody of his daughter.

Nu-Captain Britain gets decursed by Doctor Strange and retires

Tony exposes Jan as having lied to Clint about false instances of abuse committed by Hank. Clint tells her to go fuck herself, reconciles with Hank only for the Skrulls to attack Hank and Clint. Clint is killed, Hank captured/replaced with a Skrull.

Vision forms Young Avengers when Cassie's powers manifests, along with other kids; two of which Vision thinks might be his long lost kids.

Wanda becomes obsessed with bringing Hawkeye back to life. Eventually Wanda finds the Infinity Gauntlet and the rest of the Avengers find out and become fearful of what will happen via Layla Miller, who warns that Wanda will do something horrible with the Gauntlet.

Quicksilver finds her and convinces her to use the Gauntlet to fix the world along with bringing Clint back and she does. House of M then happens and when it all starts to fall apart, she uses the Gauntlet to "No More Mutant" Earth.

>>95110462
>Secret Wars V
There was a Secret Wars III and IV? Where?

I miss cute Doreen, the one who baby sat for the Avengers.

>>95111400
Secret Wars 3 was a single issue of Fantastic Four, and Secret Wars IV is Secret War

>>95111530
Secret War is absolutely not a "Secret Wars", that's retarded.

>>95111569
yeah well Marvel is retarded, what more do you want

>>95102319
when Bendis and Brevoort pushed for Spider-Man to become an Avenger, willfully ignorant that the Avengers are not just Marvel's Justice League

>>95102362

I liked Disassembled, remember it came on the heels of Austen's run, so in comparison was miles better.

I even liked the events up until Siege. Felt like a cohesive universe. After that about 2009 quality nosedived.

>>95111595
Except that they never referred to Hickman's Secret Wars as "Secret Wars V", only you did that. Its name is, for all intents and purposes, Secret Wars 2015.

>>95112293
>I liked Disassembled
Then you're a fucking imbecile.

>>95102438
The truth is even weirder. There were some minor reports of some writers how editors were rewriting stuff behind their backs. The guy who wrote Spider-Man 700.1-700.5 mentioned that when he grabbed the final product he basically went "WTF, I didn't write this dialogue", etc.

>>95112642
oh, and he also said that a lot of editors actually have an ambition of being writers, and rewrites are something common, at least for low-tier writers.

>>95105355
Eh, I think that the decline started in 1974, when marvel writers became self-indulgent. It's also when the first redundant teams started, like Defenders

>>95102319
>when did x go bad
>picture from something /co/ agrees overall was a universal fuckup

Every hour with these kinds of threads. Maybe things don't just up and die, maybe there are just ups and downs and you get shitty stuff sometimes but then better stuff later when the people responsible are gone and the fads they were trying to appeal to shift.

>>95107941
A very rare opinion, but also painfully true. "Everyone is Avenger" is full cancer. Alas, Brevoort always wanted Avengers to be the flagship

>>95106223
This. It should be a motto of every X-thread

>>95102319
The first Civil War was the beginning of the end.

>>95102319
>When does /co/ think marvel went bad?

2012. That's when they went full SJW pandering and had an overal degeneration in art quality.

>>95102319

When was Clone Saga? Thats when. That was the mark of everything going down the shitter from then on.

>>95102319
1986.
Titles stood almost entirely on their own prior to that, and then suddenly: "Hey kids, if you want to see what happens next, check out Secret Wars!"

>>95102319
Early 2000s, >>95106223 for instance, bounced back a bit near 2010, then in 2011 started going downhill again, hasn't stopped since.

>>95102530
She recently got an award!

Gilleon's Young Avengers. You can't deny that it created the current Marvel atmosphere.

>>95105355
the first half of the 80s is the start of the decline champ

>>95106223
>Ramping up retarded event culture is Morrison's fault
>House of M is Morrison's fault (your tautological retardation here is just that >>95107208)
>OMD is Morrison's fault
>ANAD is Morrison's fault
You are retarded, Joe Quesada and Axel Alonso fucked the company

>>95102530
They gave her an award so guess those are worthless now.

>>95102365
>it spills over into books that would otherwise have been unaffected
What I don't understand is how tom king managed to convince marvel not to make him tie his book into civil war two when a vision of the future was a plot point.

>>95102319
When they let Dan Slott take over Spidy it all went down hill. Spock should've never been a thing.

>>95114798
Spock should have been a single issue story or a 3 issue mini.

>>95110707
Secret War isn't Secret Wars.

>>95112698

1961

Atlas Comics was a real winner of a name, they should have stuck with it. A dumb name change was the first sign something was wrong.

>>95114838
Marvel considers it, given that they included it in their Secret Wars mega box set.

bendis, brevoort, quesada, ike, slott, hopeless
if all these people died would it fix marvel?
asking for a friend

You're gonna get a reply because that Squirrel Girl is one of the best bait

Man I hate that fucking book it will forever exist

>>95116167
>you're gonna get a reply
>80 replies later
AND ANON DID SPEAK AND THE PEOPLE HAILED HIM AS PROPHET

>>95113233
This. After civil war Marvel never had more than 2 or 3 good books.

>>95114703
Didn't civil war get one back then?

>>95116101
Would amanat lose her job there if it happned?

>>95116372
she'd probably become EIC

>>95116384
That would probably make things worse.
W-wow. I hadn't imagined that was possible, but I'm [LITERALLY SHAKING] right now.

>>95113898
Mid-nineties. Though I would put some of their shady shit even earlier than that.

>>95112293
>I liked Disassembled, remember it came on the heels of Austen's run, so in comparison was miles better.

That's not saying much.

But I will agree that the events still felt cohesive despite being stupid, until after Siege ended.

>>95116384
Hard to believe that there's something lower than rock bottom, but that would do it.

>>95107172
You seriously don't think House of M wouldn't have happened without Morrison's run? It sounds like the kind of thing Ike would call for when he got flustered with Fox.

I just noticed her left ear is colored wrong. Jesus. I'm okay with the low-detail art but this is a travesty.

>>95116384
Of course she'll become the new EIC, do you think that Modern Marvel would pass up a chance to have the first female POC EIC and not constantly brag about it?

>>95118834
they'll probably make Bendis or Waid EIC before Amanat

>>95118834
>>95117141
>>95116550
I strongly disagree with all of you.

>>95118939
About what?

>>95112760
Which is why it's stupid. If every hero is a Avenger then what's special about being on the team. If anything it makes a hero more interesting not being one.

>>95102319
August 31, 2009

The day Disney bought Marvel.

>>95107941
I think that overlaps with "Bendis writing Avengers" and "Avengers Disassembled". It would definitely be the moment where things heavily started to go wrong.

>>95102319
When their movies stopped being like Blade and Men In Black and became like Thor and Iron Man.

>>95102319
Disassembled. Derpified SG/SJW/Everyone's an Avenger stuff just accelerated it.

It started to fall with Civil War. Then I think the full effects started to take place around Marvel Now when Marvel went to full on wank mode for the normie audience.

>>95119779
>>95120701
Disassembled is the start where things went wrong. Because the problems with Civil War were already inherent with Disassembled (ignore consistent characterization in favor of some big event) But yeah Civil War and House of M were big problems showing disregard of the fans in favor of new fans.

But the first nail in the coffin was One More Day (showed they could take the stupidest idea to roll back anything and pretend everything is okay while attacking longtime fans, something they still continue to do), and Ultimatum for the Ultimate Universe.

You're kinda close about Marvel Now, but I'd say it was Avengers vs X-Men. It was reiterating Civil War but this time to diminish the X-Men in favor of the Avengers and done in a really stupider fashion than even the first Civil War.

People try to claim that Marvel went wrong because of SJW stuff and that isn't true. It was already going wrong even if they hadn't done anything considered SJW by its critics.

The same kind of decision making that thought it was okay to replace Cap with Falcon, Logan with X-23, Thor with Jane, Hulk with Cho, Tony with Riri, etc all within less than five years without giving much time to breathe is the same kind of decision making that thought doing Superior Iron Man, Infamous Iron Man, HydraCap after Superior Spider-Man was a good idea. They take a good idea and overdo things, and end up running it into the ground.

The moment when things went truly wrong for Marvel is what >>95110462 said because after Secret Wars, the ANAD launch had a bad reception. Retailers were complaining about it as much as they complained about DCYou. And you can see last year and this year Marvel was concerned enough that they had to do a meeting with retailers.

>>95120868
This was an article by Brian Hibbs who was concerned about the sales on DC and Marvel in December 2015:
http://www.cbr.com/trouble-on-the-horizon/

>Anecdotally, I can state that at my stores from mid-September essentially every “Secret Wars”-related comic, including the main book, took a sharp drop of about 20%, which turned those comics from profitable to “not.” We’re trying to steer the orders back toward profitability as fast as we can, but clearly there are always going to be casualties. And the truly painful thing is that, much like “DC You,” “All-New All-Different” is stumbling out of the gate, and what should have been a grand repositioning that would draw flocks of new and excited readers to a revitalized Marvel line, like “New 52” did for DC, ANAD has arrived with just a quiet sigh of indifference from the majority of the readership.

>In fact, my sales were down 4% in the month of November, the first drop we’ve seen after seven straight quarters of growth — and these are 4% sales down on orders that were approximately 20% higher than the year before. That’s bad and dangerous to ongoing operations.

>>95120951
>How about the new and young readership? Marvel actually was starting to attract some of them at our stores — books like “Squirrel Girl,” “Ms. Marvel” and the Jane Foster “Thor” title were racking solid sales for us outside of the “traditional” Marvel customer. But that new/younger readership? They literally don’t understand why you would start a book over again at #1. It makes no sense to them! And that confusion appears to have shooed a number of them off. In an equivalent sales period, our sales of the first issues of all of those series are actually below (dramatically so in the case of “Thor!”) the final issues of the “old series” — which was only on issue #8 for two of the three! But readers appear to be treating the relaunches as simply “issue #9.” That’s not typical consumer behavior.

>And I hear similar things from many other retailers — the “word on the street” from a wide swath of stores is that a vast indifference has begun to creep in among the readers of superhero comics, and that this miasma is softening the 4th quarter enough to potentially threaten these stores. This is scary because an enormous amount of stores in the market don’t really have a fall-back position from “we sell superhero comics.” As the old saying goes “They carry both kinds of comics: Marvel and DC!” Which puts you in a bad position if both companies are underperforming at the same time.

>>95120957
http://www.cosmicbooknews.com/content/comic-book-retailers-sound-dc-marvel-sales-drop#axzz4rmnKAFy8 had tweets from Big Bang Comics about how bad it was January 2016 (this was before Rebirth was launched mind you).

>We've been talking about how DC books have been selling less and less lately. And now Marvel is there too. We're honestly looking at the sales of some of the Marvel books and shaking our heads in disbelief. But there's SO MANY OF THEM! There is no effort any more to build a sustainable fan base. It's throwing stuff at the wall and praying something sticks.

>Is it that some corporate levels need to be hit and so many books need to be published? Is it an attempt to flood the market and take sales from Image comics who are just growing and growing and taking the majors' talent away? We have never seen so many people coming in and cancelling "all Marvel" or "all DC" books in their pull lists. It happens LOADS

Remember, this was before Rebirth happened. Marvel and DC were not in a good place.

>>95102319
Xmen Schism

>>95121030
ANAD's problems were also getting reported here:
http://www.comicsbeat.com/is-marvels-relaunch-stumbling-out-of-the-gate/

and here:
https://www.bleedingcool.com/2016/01/27/retailers-complain-about-collapsing-marvel-and-dc-sales/

But from when Rebirth launched all the way to now, retailers were reporting how much better DC was doing for them compared to most Marvel books.

>>95121058
X-men was shit well before that

>>95120868
>Disassembled is the start where things went wrong
I'd say "when ultimate started leaking into regular Marvel".
Well mainly, ther had been some pretty bad derps even before with X-Men and Spider-Man, I guess.

Started its descent with Secret Wars, passed the point of no return with Heroes Reborn. You really can't get worse than crashing your industry, putting thousands of stores out of business, laying off all your most loyal artists, selling yourself to a toy company, and literally killing Mark Gruenwald.

>>95121538
No, that was a downslide, but even back then at least they had some kind of standard, even if it kept going lower. I read late 90's Marvel and even though I remembered only liking a few books like Busiek's Avengers, it was still more consistent than Marvel in this decade.

And
>You really can't get worse than crashing your industry, putting thousands of stores out of business, laying off all your most loyal artists, selling yourself to a toy company,

Are mainly the fault of the people above the EIC. Like that Revlon guy and some others. But if we're gonna include that, then I say the real point of no return was when they got bought out by that guy and Marvel stock went public (I think it was in 1991). That's when Marvel kept having to do something big each quarter to appease stockholders.

Wait. Men in Black is a marvel IP?

>>95121757
Indirectly, because they were owned by Malibu Comics.

>>95102319
Well marvel has been fucking up before this huge fuck up.
What really started this? Well it was because of the avengers movie.
Geek shit got even more popular and normies wanted in on it.

I'd say when Joe Quesada became EIC. And Alonso hasn't done any better.

It really started to dip probably late mid/late 2000's for me.

>>95122937
>I'd say when Joe Quesada became EIC

I would tend to agree

>>95102319
Comics are like bird wings. In order for a comic to succeed or fly it needs two things. Good Art and Good Writing. Not having even one of those things can really hurt a Comic it just hovers in that location of being semi-profitable before it drops. But not having either good writing or art? sales will plummet.
I put it to you anons look at OP's image if that was your first impression for the art and writing of a comic would you go back for seconds?