Why people hate man of steel for being "out of character"

>Make an adaption of a well known character
>"Nah actually it's our OC but he will turn into that character you know and love by the very end"

This shit needs to fuck off forever.

>>95092407
Which is bad because he gets more and more confused every time he's on screen.

You dont know Superman OP, also you're a fag.

>>95092407
A three movie long origin story is not a good thing.

>>95092407
Because it's pa kents teachings that are meant to turn him into that.

Jesus, just stop with this shit. Even if they came out with a Man of Steel 4 that was incredible it still wouldn't retroactively make the movies that came before any less of a slog starring a boring character. I fucking love Superman and want nothing more than to see him in a good movie I even thing Caville can deliver but stop thinking that will somehow work as a pardon for these last two movies sucking ass.

>>95092671
I hear dying horses Clark!

>>95092407
Because he looks more OOC in BvS.

Also people would rather watch a movie about batman, than a trilogy of Bruce funding up to one day become batman. They paid to watch using batman.

People want to watch Superman, not "you might dislike this guy, but he will be Superman in the end, I swear!"

>>95092407
>He was supposed to look more and more like his iconic comic version each movie of the trilogy, he's still learning how to be optimistic and inspirational.

If I have to wait through 2 filler movies for them to get it right, then they fucked up big time

>>95092919
Yeah, I have nothing against Caville either, I actually think he looks the part and can act the part.

The problem with Superman isn't the action, or the casting (aside from Jimmy Olson and Lex Luthor). The problem is the fact that Goyer and Snyder got Supermans underlining ideology wrong. They turned the Kents into some Randian believing psychos instead of the loving people that they were. They tried to teach Superman it's more important to be individualistic then to be a hero, they tried to teach him it's more important to care for yourself then for others. Which is in absolute direct contrast of what Superman stands for.

But they don't mess up completely because Jor-El teaches him to love people more then the Kents do. If they had cut out Jor el, and just focused on the Kents and switched Jor-El's ideology with the Kents it would be more accurate.

"You will give the people an idea to strive towards. They will race behind you. They will stumble. They will fall. But in time, they will join you in the sun. In time, you will help them accomplish wonders."

That would have been a great quote for Jon Kent!


The writers also try to make it too dark and have him kill Zod, and destroy a city. Which to me is too big of a moment for a first movie. Could have been an epic moment, especially if this was a trilogy and it ends on that.

>>95092407
>He will turn into a hero after 9 hours of character development where he broods edgily like an angst-ridden necksnapping teenager, just be patient

>>95092407
Because you can't say stuff like "I'm sticking to the canon" and make your own charater who will turn into Superman after he dies. You especially can't do it when he fights someone and that fight costs thousands of lives and billions in property damage.

I liked MoS, but it's not hard to see why people didn't. BvS should have been World's Finest with Superman actually being Superman in the movie, and not just a mere minute before he sacrifices himself. I'll be so mad if he's not "muh" superman in JL after having to wait 4 years

>>95094166
>I liked MoS
>But it's not recognizeably the character of Superman
>Hopefully JL will actually portray Superman

Do you have some sort of Stockholm Syndrome for DC comics movies?

>>95094130
I wonder why the father that's concerned with his son's survival and integration into Earth's lifestyle wants him to stand out while the father that's well aware of his son's enhanced capabilities and desire to help others wants him to stay dormant.

>>95094248
MoS was an origin story with the end showing him stepping into the role of Superman, the costume, relationship with Lois, job at the planet, it was up from there, then BvS had him reluctant to do his job, he cared about an outlaw when he could have just zipped across the bay to fix everything there and make Gotham like Metropolis

MoS was fine, BvS was a massive slump that shouldn't have happened

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>>95094130
Completely agree, especially regarding the "ideal over hero." Yes, Superman does serve as an example of good and positivity both in-universe and to us the reader. But that's not because Clark wants to be that way, he just wants to help people, no matter what they think of him. What Snyder and Goyer get wrong is that they focus so much on the Superman ideal that they forget what Superman does to enforce that ideal.

In the JL trailer when they talk about how inspirational Superman was, it falls flat because we barely saw him as a human who genuinely wanted to save people. You could argue that the montage of him helping people around the world was that, but the whole scene is ruined by its lack of positivity and humanity. The pint of the scene is to show the audience that Superman is needed in the world and gives hope to people. The message fails because it's just Superman preventing disasters and deaths. We don't see him comforting the people he saves. We don't see him sympathizing with the victims. If he did these things, we would understand why people admired him and we would have understood why people saw him as an ideal. But Snyder skips that step and jumps right into "Superman was an inspiration to humanity." Such a shallow attempt to justify an underdeveloped character and confusing themes.

>>95094438
>MoS was fine, BvS was a massive slump that shouldn't have happened

the DCEU was a mistake

>>95092407

He literally commits genocide in the first film.

>>95094555
Man of Steel and Wonder Woman was ok, suicide squad and BvS were rushed.

MCU also started terribly after Iron Man 1. Hulk,Thor and Iron Man 2 are all terrible movies but it recovered since then

>>95094555
The DCEU isn't a mistake, just BvS and Suicide Squad, the first was because Snyder somehow has such a boner for the DKR without having read the thing, be used it as justification for batman killing, even though batman doesn't kill anyone in the DKR. Like I said, BvS should have been World's finest, have them not trust eachother initially but then have them realise they're both fighting for the same thing and team up against something. The second was because nobody told Ayer no until WB had to step in and edit it on their own somehow making it worse.

I don't herald Johns as some master writer, but he knows his stuff when it comes DC, and if we get more movies about heroes like WW, and not deconstructions of characters that have yet to be constructed we should be fine

>>95092407
>decide to make power puff girls movie
>make their father a mad scientist who abuses them
>make the girls murderous criminals who are only out for themselves
>fans complain
>w-wait, they will be the TRUE characters in 6 more movies
>I-its character development not shit writing or lack of understanding of the source material

This shit is apropos of nothing. I was waiting for a superman thread, so fuck it.

Somebody I admire once said that superman is at his best when he's talking somebody out of suicide. I respectfully disagree.

Superman is at his best when he's Clark Kent. Superman is best when he's one of us. Somebody who has to bend over in the middle of the crowd to tie his shoe laces. Somebody whose pen leaks and ruins his dress shirt. Somebody who misses the subway. Somebody who doesn't know how to talk to that gorgeous female reporter he has the crush on. Somebody who drops his spaghetti.

Superman is only superman when the chips are down, and Clark Kent has to rise to the occasion.

This is something that gets missed.

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This is some "muh head canon" bullshit man.

It's not his "origin story" where eventually he will stop acting like a angry video game character after 4 movies. The truth is so much simpler than that. They just made shitty Superman movies

>>95094733
MoS was an origin story, the plan was to make a Superman trilogy, I bet the plan was to make Superman into a proper Superman in MoS2, but then after the backlash WB forced in batman but let Snyder pretty much do what he wanted and fucked it up, so now it's building up to Superman over 4 movies (because he's not going to be in JL much)

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>>95094832

movie 1:
>Superman is shit
movie 2:
>Superman is shit, dies
movie 3:
>???????????

>>95094877
BvS was not the original plan, they were going to do MoS2, the DCEU was not the original plan, it was going to be like the DKT. But WB being reactionary told them to stuff batman into it and fucked everything up. To be fair they probably would have fucked MoS2 at the time anyway

>>95094130
>The problem is the fact that Goyer and Snyder got Supermans underlining ideology wrong.
Yes. The problem with this series is that it simply doesn't believe in Superman.

"You'll believe a man can fly?" Not that tough in an age of spectacular special effects.
"You'll believe a man can be both strong AND good?" Much taller order for an age of cynicism and fighting-the-power. But that's what audiences need to be convinced of in order to be made to believe in Superman, because that's the foundation of what he is. And if the filmmakers don't believe that themselves...

>>95092407
But that's fucking stupid. Superman is the person he is because he was raised by good people, he shouldn't need three movies to turn him into classic supes. Superman should already be superman. I'm not even remotely interested in watching another dreary, dull piece of shit superman movie in the hopes that I might actually get to see superman.

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>2013
>man of steel is more contentious than fucking anime
>arguments boil down to fans being pretentious morons and non-fans being elitist dickheads
>a big point is how faithful it is to the character who I never gave a shit about other than DCAU
>see it in theaters to make up my own mind
>thought it was flat-out average, forget the movie seconds after leaving theater
>get into Superman way later, read All-Star, Whatever Happened to the Man of Tomorrow, At Earth's End
>really get into the character, he's really good when they bother to make him a nice guy like in pic related
>see webm of flight scene
>decide to give MoS another shot
>Liked it well enough. I've seen people complain about "DBZ fights" but it works better than comedy fights imo. Cavill and Michael Shannon do pretty good, and while Spess Jesus symbolism and STOP INVINCIBLE SON are still dumb, the "Man of Murder" thing is ridiculous baby screeching, what was he supposed to do?
>/co/, 4 actual years later, are still having company wars to determine its quality
/co/, I love you, but you're better than this. It's perfectly okay to like or not like a movie, but this is basically a /tv/ thread with less feet. Be the board Superman knows you can be. bvs was poopoo tho

>>95092407
>I AM JESUS
>I AM JESUS
>I AM JESUS
>I AM JESUS

>>95094130
>The problem with Superman isn't the casting (aside from Jimmy Olson
There is nothing wrong with who they cast as Olsen, no one fucking wants a pathetic bastard stepchild annoying as fuck brat following Superman around.

>>95096041
>Nostalgia Critic
Fuck off Doug

>>95092407

what fucking trilogy are you even talking about?

>turning into the classic

>character development

whatisreadingcomprehension.jpeg

>>95094130
>They tried to teach Superman it's more important to be individualistic then to be a hero
When?
>they tried to teach him it's more important to care for yourself then for others.
Provably fucking wrong, after the "maybe" line Pa Kent immediately says "there is more at stake then our lives or the lives of those (directly) around us".
It was NEVER fucking about selfishness with Pa Kent.
>If they had cut out Jor el
But that would severely limit the Sci-fi focus they had in this film which was a godsend, once again you fucking people refuse to approach the film the way it was intended to be seen instead of your pathetic selfish vision of what it "should" be.
>The writers also try to make it too dark and destroy a city
No that factually did not fucking happen, you are proving yourself over and over again to being a lying fucking coward.
Only 1 skyscraper fell while Clark was fighting in Metropolis & he personally did ZERO structural damage to it.
>Which to me is too big of a moment for a first movie
"to me" is fucking irrelevant, that was the ENTIRE FUCKING POINT to throw a unprepared Clark into a monumentally dire situation from the get go.
>>95094166
>when he fights someone and that fight costs thousands of lives and billions in property damage
See above.
>>95094535
>he just wants to help people, no matter what they think of him
Then he would be a negligent fucking bastard when what they think of him results in senates getting blown the fuck up.
>>95094646
>even though batman doesn't kill anyone in the DKR
Writing wise it is vague, the "rubber bullets" line could have been sarcasm, but artwork-wise he absolutely did. We see Mutants being thrown into the air by massive explosions coming from the canon on the Bat Tank.
>>95094678
>>make their father a mad scientist who abuses them
Yes that to totally comparable to Pa Kent being concerned for the greater good of society.

>>95094971
>Yes. The problem with this series is that it simply doesn't believe in Superman.
False.
They very reasonably believe that a realistic world with realistic problems would be too much for a humanized Clark to handle.

>>95095828
>the "Man of Murder" thing is ridiculous baby screeching
God bless you for acknowledging this.

>>95092407
If you have to take 3 nearly fucking 3 hour long movies just to turn Superman into a likable character then you're beyond incompetent.
>he's still learning how to be optimistic and inspirational.
Superman learns that shit as a kid from his parents and his upbringing. He doesn't need to kill someone to learn that it's wrong, he doesn't need to find one person that loves him to see that the world is worth saving and he sure as hell doesn't need to learn how to be optimistic and inspirational by dying.

>>95092671
>"Maybe you should've let those kids die Clark"

>>95094832
>MoS was an origin story
Which is why is ended with him being a more traditional Superman.
>"Welcome to the Planet"
>"Happy to be here"
WHILE ACTUALLY FUCKING SMILING.

But then Snyder pissed it all away in BvS and managed to make him even more of an unlikable, uncaring dick than he was in MoS. But hey......at least we got a montage of Superman silently saving people while looking like he wants to kill himself, he was also totally smiling while he saved that girl, all you've gotta do to see it is pause, zoom in, brighten and it's right there.

>>95094616
>Hulk,Thor and Iron Man 2

I actually like Thor, but I'm not gonna try to defend it. I like it despite its flaws, but I still realize it has flaws.

>>95096340
>Yes that to totally comparable to Pa Kent being concerned for the greater good of society.

>you should have considered letting the children die, Clark

Fucking tard, here is your (You)

>>95096074
Speak for yourself, Jimmy is a great part of the Superman story and I'm pissed that Snyder killed him off. It's emblematic of the approach he took with the mythos, that being cynical and flippant

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>>95096753
>you should have considered letting the children die, Clark

A confused and unsure Superman has to be earned. It has to play in contrast to the core of him. You can't start off with him not knowing how to be a hero

>>95096362
So they set him up to fail and wonder why people don't like it.
They say Superman can't be super and man both, if he is human he MUST faul, and can't be super, or else it is “unrealistic“

>>95097444
What? That's the only way to do it.
The issue is that he doesn't really do that.
Like maybe if BvS started with a much more sure Superman then sure.
But Superman shifted into harder self doubt.
And graduated from a scared uncertain Pa to a Ma who believes it's Superman's choice to be Superman and telling him fucking off is totally an option and Ghost Pa telling him that bad things will happen even when you do right by people.
It's just a dark at best bittersweet Superman nobody wanted.
Nobody wants a Superman where it's a "We've no choice but to keep moving forward" hope. They want a "Everything is going to be okay" hope. And they can't keep waiting til' the next movie to make that Superman.
Especially if the next one is going to be evil brainwashed Superman.

>>95092407
Because nobody wanted to wait three movies for that, and having him become the “real“ Superman after getting killed -which should be traumatic - is the most unrealistic shit I ever heard.
Especially from movies that say they are oh so realistic

>>95097566
To be fair, the DCEU gave up on the "guise this what is REALLY be like!!!!11!" angle in BvS

>>95092407
i love man of steel. and i loved dawn of justice. i love his scenes with his mother
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BRfpZD2ggx0
>the world's too big mom
>then make it small

i love his scenes with his father
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hXsqsZ7xbjM
>I miss you son
>I miss you too dad

i love when he cried on lois' shoulder after killing zod. i loved the diner scene where the waitress told him no, calm down. i loved seeing him in his cape i loved seeing him in the car arguing with his parents the way a teenager does. I love Superman as Clark Kent first, Superman second.

>>95094616
Hulk is unironically one of the best MCU movies, though. And Cap, which came out right after Thor, was great.

>>95097762
>i love his scenes with his father
Yeah, who wouldn't love scenes where Pa Kent tells Superman that he shouldn't have saved drowning children? Or that he should stand there and watch his father die just so a few strangers wouldn't know his secret?

>>95097882
are you a parent?

>>95092407
>he's still learning how to be optimistic and inspirational
Intentions are irrelevant when they don't translate to screen. I don't think there's enough forward momentum in the character development of his cape movies to convince or satisfy people. That's on Snyder's shoulders.

Snyder is a capable director with bad storytelling instincts which fail him when he's trying to work with dense stories. He should go back to doing movies with more straightforward plotting like Dawn of the Dead, where he can freely indulge in his visuals.

>>95097911
No, but I'm not retarded enough to think that my invincible son's privacy is more important than a bunch of kids dying.

Telling Clark to let him die makes a lot more sense, and would be forgivable if it wasn't for that other scene. But with both of them, it just makes Pa Kent retarded.

>>95097762
>i love when he cried on lois' shoulder after killing zod.
I love when he and Lois made out on the ashes of thousands while thousands more cried out for help.
>I love Superman as Clark Kent first, Superman second.
I love that too, it's just a shame that both Clark and Superman are unlikable dicks in the DCEU.

>>95098255
you don't understand what loyalty and being responsible for a child means.

>>95098300
>while thousands more cried out for help
hmm. thousands are probably crying for help right now, why don't you help them? why aren't you giving every spare minute to take care of other peoples needs?

Man of Steel and BVS is too real for capecasuals

>>95098308
Any parent who would rather let a bus full of children die than let rumors spread of their kid being a superhero is an asshole. That's not loyalty, it's idiocy.

Clark wasn't in danger. If it was a situation where he might've died, maybe I could agree with you. But this was Pa Kent being selfish.

>>95098357
wtf does that even mean?

>>95098323
I'm not in the middle of an active disaster zone that was essentially caused by me (some of it directly) I don't have super powers, and probably most important of all I'M NOT FUCKING SUPERMAN.

>>95098379
Something about Batman getting raped in prison, probably by the Joker.

>>95098323
There's no expectation for Clark to spend every minute of his life saving people.

But this was right after the biggest tragedy the world has ever seen. And he was the most qualified person on the planet to help out. And he was right fucking there.

>>95092504
>too autistic to enjoy character development
ok

>>95098414
Character development isn't inherently good, you know.

>>95098380
>I'M NOT FUCKING SUPERMAN.
neither is clark, yet.

>>95092919
BvS wasn't that bad.

>>95098449
Ok, let's rephrase that then:

I'm not a guy with super speed, super strength, invulnerability, and the power of flight.

Also, ending Superman's origin story without him being superman is pretty fucking stupid.

>>95098406
>And he was right fucking there.
and he helped. he killed zod because he had to.

>>95098449

Well he's not anything at that point, considering the sum of his character is shown through childhood flashbacks and the most basic fucking daddy issues I've seen outside of the new Tomb Raider games.

Clark has zero functional personality in MoS.

>>95098471

He does become Superman at the end of MoS, they just retconned it hard and Snyder expected his autistic fanbase to scream "THAT'S THE POINT" over and over to the point that people would give up pointing out that flaw.

>>95098471
>ending Superman's origin story without him being superman is pretty fucking stupid.
depends on how you see superman. i think that's the crux isn't it, we see superman in different ways

>>95098502
>Clark has zero functional personality in MoS.
you've seen the film and you really think that? i thought the main argument against his character was that he was too human and flawed?

>>95098530

>you've seen the film and you really think that?

Of course I do, there's nothing to him. Childhood flashbacks aren't enough to build an adult character, and the grown-up version is entirely beholden to My Two Dads-tier emotional conflicts.

I don't know anything about him as a person. The character is an utter blank slate for the first half and Screenwriting 101 for the second.

>inb4 that's the point

Then it's a shit point. I don't care about your intent when it's a fundamentally uninteresting character, just because you have a concept doesn't make it a good one.

>>95098583
unlike a lot of other superman interpretations i thought he had that quiet kindness and integrity about him. i found him interesting. i didn't like superman very much before MOS. i thought he was staid and totally flat, this movie gave him personality. It's funny how we interpret things differently.

>>95098414
Depends on how you use character development.

>>95098639

>unlike a lot of other superman interpretations i thought he had that quiet kindness and integrity about him

Either Cavill doesn't have the chops to pull that off, Goyer can't write that successfully or Snyder can't direct that properly, because he came off as a sad lumberjack for most of he movie.

I think the problem with the people who dislike the current DCEU approach to Superman is that they view the entire thing entirely through fan POV and have this unreasonable notion that it has to be an entire foregone conclusion in the story that Clark's going to be Superman and everything has to build up to that idea, with him always learning these incremental life lessons that define him as Superman later on. He can't falter or ever be lost since there's a not a convenient plot device to guide him to the answers immediately. They hate the concept that Clark doesn't always find the straight path to everything. He has to immediately put on the costume and be in control of his powers when he's an adult at the age of 25 or whatever.

And that's entirely wrong way to look at it, that largely works when he already is a fully formed and iconic static version of Superman in the story and you do a quick flashback to those lessons.

It's also a bad idea to insist he's perfect and already learned everything by the end of the first movie. That's not how you write an organic franchise if you're doing a character oriented approach, like DCEU is doing. It works for Marvel where they've become largely just action comedies and story is just excuse for the action.

It's far more interest to see Clark little by little learning different things about being a hero throughout multiple movies, rather than be 100% competent in one movie and then in the sequels bumble around mostly due to the script saying he can't do X, Y and Z until the end. If he doesn't, it'd a bit like what the fans bitch about CW's the Flash. Once Barry can already time travel and do all the speedfore tricks, it's stupid that he gets BTFO nearly every episode by the rogue of the week instead of just defeating them in one second. Only now you'd have bigger problems for the entire franchise, questioning why doesn't Clark fly around helping Batman, Wonder Woman, etc. for every solo movie and fix it instantly, etc.

>>95098751
not to me.

>>95094535
I really really REALLY hate that part.

Like, it's the only moment where Snyder thinks it's a good way to show Superman being a hero, which is painting it as a completely awful thing Superman is forced to do

>>95098760

>I think the problem with the people who dislike the current DCEU approach to Superman is that they view the entire thing entirely through fan POV

It's hard to take your argument seriously when you start from a false premise.

Peter has one, continuous character arc over the entire Raimi-Man trilogy and you don't hear people complaining that he wasn't 100% Spider-Man yet. Snyder just did it poorly.

> He can't falter or ever be lost since there's a not a convenient plot device to guide him to the answers immediately. They hate the concept that Clark doesn't always find the straight path to everything.

Yeah it's not like an entire generation grew up on the Timmverse Clark, who has flaws and foibles and actual human emotions and ended up birthing a whole new group of fans out of that interpretation and never saw him as boring.

>It's also a bad idea to insist he's perfect and already learned everything by the end of the first movie

They literally reset his character arc in BvS. MoS ends with him becoming Superman, then they retcon it so Snyder can try and make some vague point of post-9/11 America and rip off Dark Knight Returns at the same time. What they did at the beginning of BvS was inexcusable, it's practically a soft reboot of the character between movies because Snyder is such a hack that he can't figure out how to write an actual Superman story.

>>95094646
>such a boner for the DKR without having read the thing
I think he just watched the animated movie, because the fight scene is literally copypasted from that until he had to start coming up with things.

>>95098854
>They literally reset his character arc in BvS

You're entirely wrong. MoS ends with Clark adopting Superman's name as an identity that he uses when saving people in public. That in no way implies he's suddenly become the elder statesman Superman of the comcis.

BvS continues his arc by making him now learn how to shoulder the burdens of being a superhero in public light and not being able to control how people will perceive him and associate realpolitik implications to his every action. It's also his first encounter with a giant smear campaign designed to discredit him.

>>95092671
Honestly. I would call the movie a 3/10 without the fucked up pa kent.
Pa knocks it down to .3

>>95098794
It's not an awful thing that he's forced to do, Snyder and Terrio are just making the rightful observation that in the real world if there was a similar person to Superman operating internationally he'll get both condemnation and really weird religious worship.
It's not Superman that's dark, it's the world around him.

>>95094535
>You could argue that the montage of him helping people around the world was that, but the whole scene is ruined by its lack of positivity and humanity

But the point of that scene is to depict how not all of humanity will accept him fully DESPITE his continuing benevolent actions and how he's still a figure of controversy due to inherent human fear and mistrust of things they can't fully comprehend.

>>95098960
You know whats sad about this whole thing? Its that people have to explain to others what the hell is happening because the writing is so bad?

>>95099071

Or maybe people are just too dumb to follow a movie that isn't that complicated.

>>95098639
>i thought he had that quiet kindness and integrity about him.
Based on fucking what? We literally never see him interacting with normal people or looking happy to be around people no named Lois or MARTHA!!!. Or even just being a normal person.

His entire character is angst and woe is me mixed with a HEAVY does of Jesus.

>>95098960
>BvS continues his arc by making him now learn how to shoulder the burdens of being a superhero in public light and not being able to control how people will perceive him and associate realpolitik implications to his every action.
That's pretty nice and all......but that entire supposed plot that you claim his arc was about was just completely fucking dropped after the bombing. It's just never mentioned again.

>>95099146
based on his interaction with everybody in the film, based on the way he carries himself. BVS didn't do such a good job but MOS i loved him the whole way through.

>>95099174
>based on his interaction with everybody in the film
Who does he properly interact with besides Lois, his mother and his father in flashbacks?
>based on the way he carries himself.
Like a mopey angst ridden teenager?

>>95099205
with the people he saved and the soldiers who took him in, how he spoke to Jor El, the Priest. i don't want to argue with you. i loved this interpretation, of course you don't have to agree with me. there are people who think Lois was perfectly cast and i couldn't disagree more.

Man of Steel made Superman Returns look good.

>>95099173

That arc is resolved with the scene with Ghost Dad atop of the mountain, when Clark decides to come back. He acknowledges that he cannot control everything and when bad shit happens he just has to work harder and do better.

>>95096703
>WHILE ACTUALLY FUCKING SMILING.

Why people are so autistic about the smiling I will never understand.

>>95098364
>But this was Pa Kent being selfish.

Guess what parents do? Spoiler alert: act selfish when it concerns the security of their own kid.

>>95098414
>>too autistic to enjoy character development
>ok
It's been TWO movies, and JL will be the third. We are still waiting for that "development".

>>95099771
Yeah but why change the way Pa Kent died at all?
In the comics he died of a heart attack and Clark drops literally everything he's doing because he realizes he can't hear his dad's heartbeat anymore. That manages to have way more of an emotional impact than the movie's bs

Snyderman is the only superhero where it takes 3 movies for him to actually be something like his classic self. Imagine if Peter was still growing into it during Spider-man 3, or if Tony was still using the mach 1 armor after Avengers, or if Batman Begins didn't have him actually beginning, Bruce doesn't gain a proper cowl until Rises.
That's what this is. That's what people are are defending. Slow burns are one thing but after almost six hours of movie it's time to check if there's a fire there at all.

>>95092407

Incorrect. Superman in these films is already like he is in the comics. He's already the ultimate good, even defying Jonathan Kent at a yoing age to save people he knew needed it. What is different, and what was meant to develop into how it is in the comics, is the world around him.

The point of MOS and BvS were to show Superman in a world that isn't ready to accept or embrace him. An emotionally grounded world that's meant to resemble our own. Also where the consequences of a city leveling battle mean something. That's something that had never been done prior to MOS, so it was a jarring change.

Of course, at the end of BvS, we saw the world change and embrace Superman after his heroic sacrifice.

>>95100614

Your analogues are all horrible and contrived. There's nothing wrong with one movie concentrating on Superman's journey into assuming the costume and starting out as Superman and the second one being about his struggles as a public figure and the problems that brings.

>>95100692
Man of Steel is, to this day, the only franchise cape movie that ends with its defenders saying "He wasn't [character name] yet!".
You may have a short memory but there are some of us that still remember when that was the rallying cry, and it's only now, after BvS that you've changed your tune to it being steps in the journey. And after Justice League drops in 2 months and Clark is still a sad baby, you'll find a new argument to say this was always the plan. or blame Whedon.
Superman moves planets like you guys move goalposts.

>>95100827

In MoS he's literally having his first day on the job when an alien invasion happens. Bitching about why he can't stop all the destruction is poor criticism since it's entirely unreasonable to demand him to be able be gary stue when he's entire out of his element and dealing with shit he had no real experience on. He had only learned to fly like a day earlier.

And he is Superman in BvS. He does Superman stuff all across the movie. You seem to be buttmad that he's still learning shit out rather than having figured everything between the two year time skip.

I like that he's shown learning things in each movie. Having a static Superman is boring since he's forced to be a hyper competent boyscout who can do no wrong.

>>95092407
Normies either liked that superman or don't care. It's only autistic manchildren who dislike that superman. Normal people liked Cavill interpretation that just wanted more superman in the movies and less Clark not muh niggers are not a majority outside forums and boards.

>>95101531
>normies argument
If "normies liked it" is the best you've got, then it's not a big selling point for the movie. Normies like fucking EVERYTHING.

You know what else normies liked? Suicide Squad, all the Transformer movies, Spider-man 3, Attack of the Clones, Superman Returns, Iron Man 2... normies just like movies.

>>95092407
don't bother arguing with Snyder-fags, they're beyond help

>>95092407
I had no problems with Superman. I had more problems with Pa Kent as a character and the ridiculous amount of Kryptonian fight scenes that went on and on and on.

>>95100827
It's generally a bad sign when a series' fans' biggest defense of the series is to say that the element that is bad is fake. See also: the Jason Todd = Leto Joker theory, Mass Effect 3 indoctrination theory, and Sherlock S4 true ending theory.

"This thing I like can't be shit, so the bad part isn't real! CHECKMATE!"

>>95098432
Enjoy your gary stu mc.

>>95102681
That's what you took from that? Nice leap in logic.

>>95095828
>>95096385
>the "Man of Murder" thing is ridiculous baby screeching,
> what was he supposed to do?
Not put him in that situation or at least show him having regret afterwards maybe?

>>95102847
>or at least show him having regret afterwards maybe?

So you're both blind and stupid?

>>95098396
>probably by Joker

hehehe nobody said anything about that

>>95102460
So is the other side, which is why its contained in single threads.

>>95099114
Or maybe the movie is poorly written garbage?

>>95102988
>B-BOTH SIDES
No, fuck off, Snyderfags need to be gassed.

>>95099782
>We are still waiting for that "development".
https://youtu.be/VlINHSnUx9k

You need only look at these threads to know they fucked up. How many times have these threads had postesr that say some variation of
>I didn't like Superman until Man of Steel
Newsflash. If you don't like a thing until a wild departure from that thing THEN YOU DON'T LIKE THAT THING.
And that's fine. It's fine to like that departure, but that's like saying "I only like dogs until they're cats in everything but name only. Just fucking like cats and leave the dogs alone!

>>95103208
Did he just kill some antelope just for the hell of it?
Otherwise there is way too much shakycam in that shit, why was that ever a thing?

>>95103415
Your eyesight is just shit.

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>2006
"WAHHH Superman Returns sucks because its too much like Donner!"
>2013
"WAHHHH Man of Steel sucks because its not like Donner at al!!"

>>95103007
Nah, that's not it,

>>95104045
>2006
Superman Returns sucks because it's a bad movie
>2013
Man of Steel sucks because it's a bad movie

FTFY

>>95094130
That was the point. Humans had different morals than the aliens. Clark was taught all his life to stay to himself. Suddenly he meets his birth father and then he was split between what he was created to do and what he grew up learning.

>>95104229
The problem is that Pa Kent is supposed to be the good father, but they really fucked that one up.

>>95104069
Keep lying to yourself. No one is dumb enough to not understand MoS. We're questioning the choices the writers made.

>>95092407
>he's still learning how to be optimistic and inspirational.
*taps foot* Okay now, he's had two fucking movies to move away from being a Batman clone and has killed and died once. Any-freaking-time they want to get on with it would be appreciated.

>>95104314
What's worst is that they are trying to act like he was Superman in the JL trailer

People hate what they don't understand.

>>95104448
>the inception defense
kek

>>95092407
Trilogy?

>>95104448
Be their hero, Clark.

There are two aspects of the character. The ability to save people and the desire to do so.
The ability comes from being Kal El.
The desire comes from being Clark Kent. (later down the line he finds out that the house of El would also share those values. but LATER. LATER, YOU FUCKING NIGGERS IN WB)

They tried to jumpstart with kal el on both areas and no clark.
Shit.

>>95104269
Jon was supposed to personify the phrase "only human." He's the reason for Clark being seperated from Kal El. Why he's just not constantly Superman.

>>95105118
But he's not supposed to be "only a human." He's supposed to be a GREAT human. Instead, MoS portrayed him as a overly-protective idiot bordering on selfish.

>>95094438
BvS came out too soon. We should've got WW and maybe a Batman first. It's problem was a lack of care for the characters on the viewers part.

>>95094713
.... damn completely agreed

>>95104291
then why are you people constantly misinterpreting and failing to pick up on things?

>>95104269
Jonathan is a good father. His first instinct is to protect his kid, not encourage a little kid to do stupid shit that can have dire consequences that he has no ability to fully understand yet.

>>95105553
Are you saying that every other version of Pa Kent are bad fathers?

>>95092407
>Why people hate man of steel for being "out of character" when the movie and the trilogy as a whole is about Kal-El turning into the classic Superman though character development?

Because there's no character development.

Also because the film is poorly paced, poorly written, and full of awful acting.

>>95105580
No, just different take. More realistic.

>>95105204
Pa Kent has always known he was a small weak man in comparison to Clark. Even Costner's Kent acknowledges this. You make it sound like he always goes out of his way to rescue damsels or whatever, when at most he's only raised a barn for a neighbour.
The only key difference Costner has from all other Pa Kents is that he doesn't want Clark to be noticed. He doesn't want to put his only son in danger. That's called Juxtaposition.

>>95105506
Because you confuse disagreement with a failure to pick up on something. We get what the writers and director were going for. We just think it's a bad idea and that the execution is terrible.

Whereas on the other side of the fence you guys think intent is all that matters. The INTENT is to show Jonathan as loving and protective so it doesn't matter if he's cold and off putting to a lot of people. The INTENT is to show Clark as struggling but good deep down, the INTENT is to show Luthor as this master mainpulator, or that Bruce has fallen so far, etc.
But INTENT isn't enough for some (many) people. Maybe, MAYBE Snyder and Goyer and Terrio had good intentions. But, you know what road is paved with those, right?

>>95094713
This.

It's infuriating how absent this is from the Snyderverse. Clark is in brooding demigod mode 24/7. He essentially has a straight rip of Nolan's Batman origin, with a parent dying and him traveling the world as a part-time vigilante hobo before running into a new father figure in a cold place and being told he should be an ideal. There's no charm, no dorky humanity, no mundane insecurity to contrast with what he faces as Superman.

He's dull and lifeless, and almost entirely inhuman.

>>95105628
>The only key difference Costner has from all other Pa Kents is that he doesn't want Clark to be noticed. He doesn't want to put his only son in danger.
Smallville Pa Kent was the same, but nobody's calling him shit.

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Remember, Snyder doesn't believe they can be taken seriously when they're in their suits. So when they're in them all they do is punch things.

>>95094713
It can be both ways though, which I think they missed. Snyder and his team define humanity by its negative traits. So for Clark to be more human he's gotta be angsty and full of doubt.
Whereas plenty of writers do a human Superman a different way; they have him use his powers for mundane things like we'd do, like take his girl flying or use xray vision to scope girls during puberty or play fetch with your dog and throw the ball way to far with your super strength. There's a scene in Lois and Clark where Clark is nervous and pacing and ends up walking upside-down on the ceiling. Or how in Superman Returns he uses his super breath to hail a cab. They needed shit like that, rather than drawn out soliloquies on human nature. That's how you make the character relatable; by showing him doing things we'd do.

>>95105715
MoS' Pa was a bit more extreme, I'll admit.Whereas Smallville's Pa would let Clark use his powers for farm work and even to break down a door once in a while, MoS wouldn't ever let Clark do that (at least from what we saw).
But yeah; there are similarities such as Smallville had Pa consider killing someone for knowing Clark was off. Same with MoS. But either people didn't see Smallville or they were just determined to hate MoS. Either way they were different mediums and I wouldn't compare them.

>>95105751
>someone saved my edit
That makes me real happy.

>>95105812
>. But either people didn't see Smallville or they were just determined to hate MoS.
Fucking really? Those are your only two options?
It's really impossible to think that maybe Smallville did something right where MoS failed?
You literally even point out the difference yourself; MoS was extreme; it took it too far, and you still have to double down and say "oh well people are just determined to hate MoS".
Come the fuck on man.

>>95105799
>Superman needs to abuse his powers for slight comedy

>>95105849
And then I said they are two different mediums. You can't compare 7 seasons worth of character development to 12 minutes.

>>95105887
Humans have a sense of humor, anon.
In Snyder's pompous attempt to make Clark human he actually went the other way and made him the most alien he's ever been.
Hell, you can even make a good argument that Snyder's Clark is on the spectrum.

>>95092407
People would probably have been more accepting of MoS Clark not being 1:1 from the comics if the film was actually good. Like, from an acting, pacing, writing, etc perspective.

I welcome different interpretations of characters, but I don't welcome shitty filmmaking, and MoS is shit indeed.

>>95105927
You absolutely can though. Like you said, Smallville's Jonathan would let Clark use his powers for farm work. Why SHOULDN'T Snyder's let Clark explore the extent of his powers, exactly? Isn't it more likely there will be mishaps if he doesn't know how to control them?

In fact, let me give a specific example. Look at how the two things handle heat vision. Smallville Clark gets taken out to the backyard and Jonathan says 'You need to be safe and learn how to control this under my supervision." Man of Steel Clark has his heat vision activate in the middle of the school day and at best we can just assume he gets told "Don't do it again ever". Would it really have dragged the movie down to have something similar? There's ways to say "I want you safe and undiscovered" that don't involve shutting Clark down entirely and are more supportive and constructive.

The entire point is that the Kents are supposed to teach Clark responsibility. There's ways to be responsible other than hiding.

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It would help if Supes had someone to confide in that wasn't just his fleshlight.

>>95092407
Because nobody wants a 3-movie origin story for Superman?

>>95105887
Didn't he completely fuck up a drunk dude who was physically smaller than him's truck?

>>95092407
>He was supposed to look more and more like his iconic comic version each movie of the trilogy, he's still learning how to be optimistic and inspirational.
Your logic doesn't even make sense.
In BvS Clark is sad because people are treating him like a god. Okay, fine, I get it. That's not how I'd go but it's a valid thing to explore that's been done before.
But how is realizing "Lois is his world" supposed to change that? That's not really related to the issue of how people perceive him.
You can maybe say he's just not going to let it get to him, but he didn't need to die for that. In fact, we didn't even really need a movie for that if that's the extent of the resolution. Not to mention, literally coming back should logically only INCREASE the amount of people that treat him as a god, so wouldn't that make him even more depressed?

>>95106020
>at best we can assume
Exactly. All we, the audience, have to work with are context clues and assumptions. In my opinion Costner's Kent was trying to keep his only son and didn't want to risk anything. And they DID have ways to keep Clark's powers in check? Remember when Clark ran into the closet after experiencing X-Ray vision for the first time? He and Ma Kent communicated through code.
>The world's too big Ma
>Then make it small. Focus on my voice.
And also regarding his powers, during the fight with Zod, Kal El tells him that it took him years to master his powers.

>>95106262
>In my opinion Costner's Kent was trying to keep his only son and didn't want to risk anything.
And as I said there are constructive ways to do this. And hey, you cited one where Martha does just that. Which has why you don't see anyone complaining about how she was portrayed in MoS. Matter of fact I'll even go as far as to say the "make it small" scene is the best one in the entire movie.
It's just too bad Jonathan didn't have one in a similar vein.

>>95106342
He did have one in BvS if I recall. I liked his concept and I wish they had focused more on Superman being split between both fathers. It focused on showing him letting go of Krypton instead.

>>95105751
>Snyder doesn't believe they can be taken seriously when they're in their suits
That's one thing he's actually right about though.

>>95106148
That was karma.

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>>95106196
In BvS, Clark fears one main thing, that his existence will bring more trouble than help. This is a subversion of Pa Kent's fears that the world would burden Clark, mixed with guilt from MoS events and what happened on Africa (which is, for all intents and purposes, the only time Superman has intervened in an Man conflict).
As Luthor's smear campaign and the doubts brought by the media reaches Clark he gets more and more afraid, until he chooses to go to the hearing and tell his side of things. The bomb ensues and leads him into self-exile.
This is where the scene on the mountain top happens and Clark receives one last lesson from Pa Kent: no matter what you do, there will be consequences; all a man can hope for is a shoulder, someone, something to help him bear this burden (his world).
It's here he accepts the full role of a Hero and, we assume, would take full public responsibility of his interventions without being consumed by his fears and doubts.

He sacrifices himself to kill Doomsday and we have to wait till JL to see the conclusion of this. That's how I saw the movie, at least.

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>>95106522
It's not about the suits.
https://youtu.be/xWh6A6ZIpfo
Even the silliest heroes have their serious times.

>>95105751
Who does he think he is? Jon Peters?

>>95095828
>the "Man of Murder" thing is ridiculous baby screeching, what was he supposed to do?
Not that I don't believe in that situation there were few other options, but,

That entire scenario was crafted in order to get to that particular ending. It wasn't particularly interesting or moving when the story has to force a situation with no way out. Even having Zod as his first outing is doing Superman wrong, because it doesn't allow the world to respond to Superman in a positive way, which then is the domino effect of "oh we're addressing the faults you mentioned in the next movie" rather than doing something competently the first time.

>>95106522
>>95106987
I believe there's a coin toss on this. In a way, yes, if they're standing around in their suits it can look really bad. Arrow does this sometimes, cutting to Oliver in costume staking out a location, which looks jarring when it's just him sitting in a van.

That Matt scene is great because Charlie Cox is an absolutely amazing actor who makes you forget he isn't blind. He has a different persona in the suit but when his real personality is pulled out through it he makes it look natural.

Even in Defenders as Jessica's ragging on the suit, he's cracking a smile and playing it off. Even as another character tries to apologize to the audience for it, he's living it up and her comments don't matter. He's not fucking bulletproof you cunt don't harp on his fucking outfit Jessica

>>95104229
>>95094381
Why does a Alien have to be taught by other Aliens to love Humans?

Why can't it be the Humans that saw the best in Superman, and that Superman in return sees the best in Humans? Wouldn't that be more inspirational message.

>>95102988
MCUfags are basically nonexistent on this board

>>95108996
Because Humans hate each other.

>>95098414
go be casual somewhere else like /tv/ or reddit

>>95098474
>he killed zod because he had to
right, he couldn't blind him with his thumbs.

>>95109120
Maybe if you life in the city...

I grew up rural and people there actually felt like a community that cared about eachother. Which is exactly the same type of scenario where Superman grew up.

>>95109239
But anon...I hate YOU...

>>95109239
The humans where Clark grew up bullied him constantly. Everyone. The kids. The sailors. The bar patrons.
But back to the previous point. Humans generally don't care for anyone outside their ilk. Now imagine bringing in an Alien Entity. We don't like what we don't understand. And Jor and Lara El even acknowledge that he would be an outcast.