What was the significance of the lesbian women storyline? What

>>95016421
Sometimes people are gay. There isn't a greater reason behind it

>>95016429
Seems odd to make such a point of having them there when they serve no purpose.

>>95016421
the point of all the side storylines was to show how while all these retards are faffing around in tights in trenchcoats, everyone else is going through all much more meaningful day to day struggles.
and then Ozzy kills them all because his god complex makes him think all his overly emotional decisions are completely rational.

It was meant give weight to Ozymandias' decision. That's pretty obvious. Same thing with Rorschach's psychoanalyst and the kid and the newstand guy with the same name.

File: FullSizeRender.jpg (758KB, 1632x1224px) Image search: [Google]

758KB, 1632x1224px

>>95016472

This, but there's also a number of Vagina Dentata images on one of the women's posters that are visually echoed throughout the book (esp in the Black Freighter) which is a foreshadowing to the extremely vaginal eye of the squid monster at the end. I've always taken that as a symbol for the violent intrusion of adult/female maturity into the mostly male world of superheroes that Rorschach (and comic fans in particular) are rejecting. It's no accident that the 2 people killed at Ground Zero next to the death vagina squid are a guy who sells comics and a guy who reads comics in an embrace. So the squid monster is also Watchmen itself, here to tell boys to grow the hell up and shut down the superhero clubhouse.

tl;dr - the lesbians were an excuse to get the metaphorically dense Vagina Dentata female symbol into the book

It must be horrible to read through all of Waychman and have your thoughts at the end be that you were triggered by two minor lesbian characters.

>>95016857
Welcome to /pol/'s logic

>>95016842
Good post.

>>95016842
>a match cut is confirmation of this crazy bait
7/10 would reply. Stronk comics wimmen don't need no men.

>>95016909
Cheers, thanks.

>>95016915

>>Attempting to analyse a thoughtful work of literature
>>Crazy

OK, anon. Sure.

I'm not saying I agree 100% with the message of the book, but it's clear Moore is interested in using symbology/parallelism throughout the book and one of the core messages of Watchmen is that superheroes are socially/sexually/politically literally retarded and need to grow up if not abandoned. That's just about all anyone in the last issue says. Rorschach clings to the moral absolutes of superheroism and look how he ends up.

>>95016421
It was the 80s, you wouldn't understand.

File: anne frank and ayn rand laugh it up.jpg (47KB, 882x550px) Image search: [Google]

47KB, 882x550px

>>95016945
Oh, you're serious. I mean you're sidestepping your over analysis of the throwaway lesbian characters and jumping headlong into a projection on what you think it means. That's fine, but you're wrong.

File: 1221517732747.jpg (64KB, 468x648px) Image search: [Google]

64KB, 468x648px

>>95016978

Can't argue with a handwave dismissal and a reaction image. Check and mate, bro, you've sure shown my trying-to-take-art-seriously ass the door.

>>95016421
Honestly, i thought it was stupid. And thats coming from a man worships the book. It seemed like some snyde slander about homosexuals in a way, especially at the fact that there relationship was broken and supposedly "doomed to fail", something alot of homophobes use as an excuse on why gays shouldnt be couples. And the fact that the bigger one ended up beating up her girlfriend only sentimented the idea that this is what alan moore was going for. So i find it weird that alan moore tells us not to like rorscach(a character i love because i find him as an individual to be very interesting and emotionally compelling) for hating gays, yet at the same time made anti gay views in his book.
>>95016842
But women should literally not bring their vagina politics and feminism into comic books. I say this as a guy attracted to other guys i dont want to be represented if all the books representing me are fucking cancer like all the shit marvel pumps out.

File: 1468435383055.jpg (175KB, 400x266px) Image search: [Google]

175KB, 400x266px

>>95017022
>So i find it weird that alan moore tells us not to like rorscach(a character i love because i find him as an individual to be very interesting and emotionally compelling) for hating gays, yet at the same time made anti gay views in his book.
Is almost like if the world was more complex than vague generalizations.

>>95017013
You're not the first person to try to 'analyze' watchmen, and it shows. There are consensus on it and none of what you posited fits in context. You don't give real argument so why bother?
>capes are retarded and need to grow up
>Rorschach's death is equitable to failure on a moral basis even though the ending hints that he would win if Ozy's plan was exposed via his journaling
That is a weak analysis and doesn't require actual argument. It's like, your opinion anon. Your supporting evidence is non existent and easily picked apart.

>>95017048
>Your supporting evidence is non existent and easily picked apart.
Not that anon but... pick it apart, then? When someone makes a sincere argument, you don't get to count "Hah, you really think that? Nuh-uh" as a win.

>>95017022
They were just a couple anon. If anything they were doomed for reasons of class over reasons of homosexuality.

>>95016842
Think you might have misconstrued something there.

The poster is meant to mirror the coming of the violent and lethal madness of the squid akin to the shark raft from the Black Freighter.
The awkwardly phrased name of the group also clearly spells out gWAR, which makes it a double sided omen, especially given the newspaper salesman was earlier shoveling fearmongering signs into his face.

During a re-read I picked up something about the dyke and her offscreen lover, but I can't recall what it was now. Something in comparison to the Psych and his relationship with his wife I think or just generally her being a pushy and insensitive person who acts like her partner just doesn't understand her when really she's as Exactly As The Tin Says as it seems.

If this thread is still up later I'll try to go over it and write out my thoughts. It wasn't anything deep though, just another parallel of sorts Moore does where someone's words and their actions or earlier words contrast.

>>95017047
Moore's perspective is different to ours; Rorscach's uncompromosing world view, accompanied by his inconsistencies in following it and intrusive approach to the cape killer case was supposed to be viewed negatively, but we overlook this because of his proactive approach to the case, actually getting to the bottom of what was going on and wanting to tell people the truth, even at the cost of his own life.

>>95017090
What did the 4 legged chicken mean?

>>95017071
It's not a sincere argument though and I literally just did. The point of Watchmen is that nothing ever ends. The nostalgia perfume is symbolism of trying to go back to the 'good old days' during times of crisis. Ozy wants to roll back the doomsday clock as it reaches ever closer to midnight during a tense socio-political climate. In his attempts to save humanity from itself, he becomes the monster that he is trying to slay, just like the narrative of the Black Freighter. At the end Dan and Laurie are talking about getting back into the superheroing. Once Rorschach's journal is found the cold war starts again and humanity's brief piece ends, causing the clock to start it's march back to midnight. It wasn't a sincere argument it was obsessive projecting >>95016842, then >>95016945 tepid analysis with a bizarre ignorance of basic themes and story with in story parallels.

I understand it is the journey of the audience's journey to impart what they may from a narrative. Just don't pass off this biased projecting that ignores the key themes of the story which again are the inability to return to the past and that nothing ever ends.

>>95017128
I always find it interesting that Moore used the Russian invasion of Afganistan as the potential sparking of a nuclear war given what happened.

I'm reading it now and I really like it. I'm surprised Jon didn't give up on women entirely when he realised they would all age him while he stayed the same, instead he just moved on to sixteen year olds.

>>95017128
Thank you for elaborating and engaging.

>>95017101
Moore was trying to paint a very post modern worldview of no absolute morality and truth but he didn't count on one thing, that capeshit fans don't want to accept those values. Capeshit fans only connected with Rorschach in Watchmen because he's the most familiar and because they have no alternative. To accept the post modern worldview is to give up on the moral absolutism of capeshit narrative and heroes, by default we realize the shallow nature of these cyclical surface level tales of corporate symbols and capeshit fans are not brave enough to face the reality.

>>95017101
It's been a while since I read it but wasn't his inconsistency in following his black and white stance on evil him not having enough time and deciding the mask killer was the bigger issue?

>>95017156
I mean, it was a huge deal at the time and did kick up tensions...

>>95017194
Fuck off Moore, go complain about your highly successful movies or something.
But in seriousness what is Moore up to anyway?

>>95017156
Historically I think it's funny that it didn't considering, I mean it was a serious financial drain on the Soviets and our involvement in backing the the Afgani's was what caused that 10 year debacle for the Russians. The real question i think is, did Moore just pick it for being topical and within recent history>>95017212(still active at the time) or did he sincerely think that it would result in ww3?

>>95017218
Well he just put out a book for one.

>>95017128
>The nostalgia perfume is symbolism of trying to go back to the 'good old days' during times of crisis.
Disagree, I think it foreshadowed Ozy's hunger for power in subtle way. He was making these products with utopian images, meaning in the world that came after, Ozy would take an active role in shaping the narrative.
>Once Rorschach's journal is found the cold war starts again and humanity's brief piece ends, causing the clock to start it's march back to midnight.
It lands at the magazine famous for publishing conspiracies, even if it was found, nobody would give a fuck other than right wing extremist nutjobs. Moore's subtle way of mocking the people who would compromise the greater narrative of peace and happiness for the sake of "absolute truth" that destroys the peace.

>>95017212
True, but as history shows again and again, you cannot invade Afganistan and win, it can't be done. Although more of it stems from the idea that Dr. Manhattan could intervene directly, as he did in Vietnam. Another thing I found interesting was his old colleague putting forward the idea that in the event of a full scale nuclear war, Dr. Manhattan could only stop half of the incoming missiles launched, but where is he getting this number from? I like the ideas proposed around the scenario though, that both nations are so hell bent on destroying eachother it doesn't matter if everything goes up in flames, and that Dr. Manhattan may just not care enough to stop nuclear anhailiation, because he could just go to Mars if he wanted.

>>95017218
Jerusalem was released last year, he's also writing his final comic book or I think he has already written it. He'll write more novels I guess, I bloody hope they're shorter than Jerusalem.

>>95017251
Truly what is more important: peace or the truth?

>>95017251
One of the scenes where Nostalgia perfume is displayed prominently is during Dr. Manhattan's time with the Watchmen as a cohesive group. During this time he begins taking a romantic interest in Laurie a much younger female. Men often pursue younger women to feel virile and youthful. Or to turn back the clock and recapture their glory days. The splotch of ketchup from the burger onto the smiley face of the newspaper employee is symbolic of the clock restarting, said splotch representing the minute hand.

>>95017251
It's been such a long time I've read it, but I think Rorschach had details there that would confirm the falseability of the document.

>>95017259
>True, but as history shows again and again, you cannot invade Afganistan and win, it can't be done

You're looking at the problem from the comfort of 2017, not 1986. And not from the view of a Brit who is in range of ICBM and a more likely target than those Yankes an ocean away. In 1986 no one knew that lesson, America didn't even acknowledge it in 2001. Hell 20 years from now someone else might try it again (provided we actually leave by then).

In 1986 Russian invasion was viewed as military aggression, an act that sets off every alarm in DC and puts everyone on high alert thinking that this might be the next Cuban missile crisis, becasue oh fuck now we have to sit down with these people and no one can figure out what the fuck they want (It's warm water FYI) and if that goes south because of pressure from the warhawks in Moscow then we finally kick off this stalemate we've been sitting in since 1954.

Oh no Adrian! Looks like the Reds are polluting the city lake, what do we do?

>>95017275
That's your moral judgement, in a world where absolute truth is so destructive or doesn't even exist, you have to be careful to ask yourself the very exact question.
>>95017278
I mixed up Nostalgia with Millennium.
>The splotch of ketchup from the burger onto the smiley face of the newspaper employee is symbolic of the clock restarting, said splotch representing the minute hand.
Because he has a very destructive truth in his hand. I never said whether what Veidt achieved was successful, just enough of people need to believe in those conspiracy theories for it to affect social consciousness.

>>95017090
Right, so first off I'm seeing the partner did show and was named Aline. Joey was the more abrasive and crude one but it seems Aline comes off a tad nose in the air.
I think my strong discolor of Joey's character probably stems from her last words being how she just wants to bed a bitch and then starts kicking Aline down for not dropping her panties.

Also I JUST now caught that Aline gives Joey a relationship issues book called Knots to help her understand their problem, and Joey instead tears it in half.

The comparison with them and the Shrink and his wife seems to have just come from the fact he became increasingly more concerned with the sort of person he was and wanted to help others at the risk of his relationship, while she became more hostile and attacked her ex-gf.

>>95017299
He was considered a nutjob, his journal entries were full of beating the shit out of people and there were no concrete evidence, if we decontextualize the narrative of Watchmen and only read the entries, would we actually believe the word of a person who has been proven clinically a psychopath?

>>95017383
A document stating that the current president hired hookers to piss on a bed Obama slept in is the main basis that the Trump campaign made deals with the Russian government to win the election.

The contents of a source can be ridiculous but that doesn't discredit everything else said within. While I agree that the journal being the blow that ends Ozy's peace is farfetched it only takes one bored investigator to start picking at it to uncover the whole thing.

>>95017403
IT would take a big leap to connect everything to Ozy definitevly though, not to mention the likelihood that he'd just murder the investigator, like he did with everyone else who was too close to the truth.

>>95017419
Again, I don't think it's plausible but the possibility remains. It's something Ozy is always going to have to look out for.

>>95016421

It was to show that a lot of the superheroes were freakish in their own lifestyles. For instance, Captain Metropolis and Hooded Justice were homosexuals, which means they were complete 'degenerates' beneath the costumes.

Meanwhile, the Silhouette was just as fucked-up in her own way. It wasn't done as a mark of pride, but to show how dysfunctional and neurotic these people were. Remember, it was a different time. Homosexuality meant that you were sick in the head.

>>95017357
>I never said whether what Veidt achieved was successful,
Uh
>It lands at the magazine famous for publishing conspiracies, even if it was found, nobody would give a fuck other than right wing extremist nutjobs. Moore's subtle way of mocking the people who would compromise the greater narrative of peace and happiness for the sake of "absolute truth" that destroys the peace.
That's not what you implied. Your statement insofar as says no one will notice, fig bars will but who cares.

Millennium is symbolic of Ozy's idealism taking form. Not about his hunger for power if he wanted that he could have taken much more overt action given his social status. He was a rich trust fund child who chose to improve the world as he saw fit vis a vis his alter-ego of Ozymandias then crystallized in company and Millennium. Millenium is just his focused efforts to change and alter the course of history. During the 'modern' setting He's solved the energy crisis among other things making the Cold War a glorified grudge match. You're really misreading the character.

>>95017426
That's exactly how I took the ending. Not totally plausible it'll ruin everything at this point, I mean we already have double flags with the soviet union when the journal is found, but that the threat to occur will always be there.

>>95017426
>>95017419
Ozymandias was fucked since the very moment he decided to name himself after a Shelley's poem which's entire point is that everything will tumble down eventually.

>>95017403
>A document stating that the current president hired hookers to piss on a bed Obama slept in is the main basis that the Trump campaign made deals with the Russian government to win the election.
The difference is that latter does have some "proofs" but Rorschach's stuff has next to no proof. But conspiracy nujobs could believe it and it could invade social consciousness on bigger level, that's definitely possible.

>>95017428
maybe you're a little harsh
probably just a cheap way to humanize and diversify the expansive roster of C-listers

>>95016421
It's been said in the thread already and I'm agreeing, the dykes were one of the 'little people' Ozy destroyed to save. But their struggle with violence and trying to find a better way to handle their relationship only to fall back into a physical confrontation (one based on sex no less) was a comment on humanity as a whole and ultimately a justification for Ozy. Them being gay was just a flourish.

>>95017476

Well, you have to keep in mind how things were at that time. If, say, Batman was gay - that's not a "Oh, he's so brave for having an alternative lifestyle" - it's a "Let's burn down the fucking publishing house" moment.

>>95017442
>That's not what you implied.
I stand by that but also that what Veidt achieved wasn't successful. The peace would collapse, be it in short term or long and the journal could or could not play a part in it. The two statements are not contradictory.
Also Millennium was new brand of perfume which was released in 86 and had all the utopian imagery, it was a new product for new age. By hunger for power I meant Ozy would still try to control the grand narratives, so that they coincide with his world view, he wouldn't just give up on the world he's trying to create. The new product for utopian age is an insight into his character.

>>95017499
I think you're being a sensationalist
I'm 34, you can't wax nostalgic to me about those days as if I have no idea

>>95017499
>batman
>gay
Improbable. Justice is a lady.

>>95017512
You're playing the 'what if' game though; you can pick apart anything someone says regardless of how it sounds like your backpedaling on your original statement. The journal was a core to the narrative and driving the plot, where its found is irrelevant because it's the only thing tying Ozy to events. Everyone else is complicit or dead. If the peace is toppled it's due to the journal.

Further Millenium has no power significance, it's simply antipodal to Nostalgia if you want to be plain about it. A perceived sea change in humanity's world view indicative of the optimism in the wake of world peace(which still feels like a whitewash of what world peace infers). Similarly Dan and Laurie are blondes as a part of their new identities which could be symbolic of their more positive outlook. That said it can't be too positive if Laurie wants to use a weapon in her future super-heroism.

>>95016434

Sometimes ordinary people get killed in huge dumb ways. What do you think the black kid and newspaper man were there for? Are you retarded?

>>95016421
It was to show the lives of the people who get wiped out at the end, so that it has a greater impact.

It's a romance story with slight modifications to make it fresh, the lesbianism is one thing, but I always thought it was great how they open on the one girl, the butch one, who feels wronged, and then it turns out she's the one who beats her partner, and may actually be in the wrong for wanting to get back together.

Of course, if gay people having the audacity to exist fictionally takes you right out of the book, that's your opinion, even if it is dumb as fuck.

>>95017579
>You're playing the 'what if' game though; you can pick apart anything someone says regardless of how it sounds like your backpedaling on your original statement.
Regardless of what it sounded like or how you interpreted it, that's what I meant.
>The journal was a core to the narrative and driving the plot
Don't judge a value of a thing by equating the value of meta logic into it. How the journal works in context of graphic novel isn't similar to what importance it holds in universe.
>where its found is irrelevant because it's the only thing tying Ozy to events.
So it becomes irrelevant in the only thing it's trying to achieve.
>If the peace is toppled it's due to the journal.
That's just you playing a what if scenario by taking journal at face value. You know the context but it would not be perceived by the same context you and I share. If you decontextualize the narrative of Watchmen, the journal reads like some conspiracy theory, further undermined by the fact that it was written by a certified nutjob. Sane person would not believe in it. Also you are assuming the peace will be toppled under very specific scenario however that may very well never be fully actualized. The "peace" could topple even in the instance of nobody realizing the ultimate truth, that's the frailty of the whole scenario, the peace itself is very thin in spite of the absolute truth.

>>95017735
Gay people are like women on the internet, they don't exist. I'm p sure they're a conspiracy created by the left to scare us.

>>95017765
What your saying overall goes against not only the flow of the narrative, but trivializes its themes and persistent symbolism. You're cherry picking details and inserting real world possibilities, exercising them in a fictional universe. All of my points are backed by evidence, yours by opinion. Writers, especially detailed world builders like Moore don't insert details without purpose or meaning as it detracts from the plot and is anachronistic to the narrative by contributing nothing at best and weakening the narrative at worst. If the journal wasn't symbolic of the impending then why include it at the ending? It wasn't for shits and giggles, it was purposeful tying up the story. I can't see your side of the argument because it smacks of specious reasoning that ignores established and well researched facts about a narrative in favor of its own self indulgence.

>>95017915
Negro I just asserted the value of journal based on facts and logics established by the narrative and you are not even refuting them, you are literally going "nuh uh, if it's there it holds specific importance on narrative and thematic level and what the importance is should be determined by my reading of the texts" I didn't hear you form any argument, you are literally inserting meta logic into it and calling it a fact.

>>95016421
There's this thing about Alan Moore, along with being a write and a wizard, he's a humanist, all his characters have to do is feel real.

File: Veidt.png (165KB, 500x372px) Image search: [Google]

165KB, 500x372px

>>95017348
We call the Watchmen!

>>95016421
Subtle gay cultural references are a huge part of the comic book industry history, it's a meta social commentary that the realistic homophobia and violent responses to overt depictions in Watchmen are so unlike what you would see in typical comics that obscure such sexuality and never depict society as being inherently unjust in it's moral virtues.

File: 19411f4f25596062300ad07434f7924e--tote-bags-funny-stuff.jpg (39KB, 380x440px) Image search: [Google]

39KB, 380x440px

>>95017194
That shirt you ordered arrived.

>>95016421
His wives were planning to leave him

>>95019746
no one woman can tame the mighty beard.

>>95016421
Prejudice against homosexuals was a thing at the time, so there is no problem portraying it.

Have to say, what happened to the Silhouette and Gretchen is the one thing about Watchmen I've always hated.

>>95021462
Why?

>>95017428
>It was to show that a lot of the superheroes were freakish in their own lifestyles. For instance, Captain Metropolis and Hooded Justice were homosexuals, which means they were complete 'degenerates' beneath the costumes.

You also left out the fact that Hooded Justice was also a supporter of the Nazis and the KKK.

>>95017682
The vendor gave insight on the status of world events and the war, the black kid read the black freighter to draw a parallel with Veidt, the two detectives were what introduced us to the murder of Blake as well as lead to the arrest of Rorscach and flee of Nite Owl, the psychiatrist and his wife showed how Rorscachs ideology and discoveries of the world could break a man other than him and show how truly dark and alone the world can be. The knot heads existed to both show the downward spiral of morals and values among the youth and lead to the death of Hollis.

And the lesbians were there just to be lesbians. Got it.

>>95022200
Most people don't read the tertiary details so they don't know this. This is exemplified by bloggers and normies on social media acting as if since he stopped a caperape he was the pinnacle of hero.

>>95017735
Well, I guess if you enjoy your gay token characters and it helps you immerse yourself in the world, who am I to judge?

File: 1431039803621.png (186KB, 226x356px) Image search: [Google]

186KB, 226x356px

>>95022241
>And the lesbians were there just to be lesbians.

Sounds like your average lesbian to me.

>>95016421
I thought it was to show how degenerate the world had becone. When you have punks running around with bun heads and nazi tattoos and lesbians fighting in the street or threatening to punch you unless you put up their gay pride signs, you know the world has took a turn for the worst which while it made them more human may also have made the decision to kill half the city all the less difficult.

>>95022413
That is eerily prophetic...

People are either making this more than it is or less.

One of the main reasons is to paint the original capes as being just as "problematic" as the greatest generation. A group of do-gooders voted a woman out because she was a lesbian. That's to point out that an Alan Scott or Jay Garrick would have done the same.

Or hooded justice being a nazi/kkk sympathizer. His name is a pun, "hooded justice", as well as showing that a person like (an authoritarian) might also believe in an overall "good of the people".

Instead of looking to symbolism of "oh it's a commentary on readers and subliminal this and that" just take something at (mostly) face value for once with Moore. The lesbians are there because lesbians are here. And the lesbians was voted out of a group of masked vigilantes because she was a lesbian.

It's a pretty face value statement being made. Older generations can be "good" yet still flawed in ways that younger generations think they're evil.

>>95017194
Relativism is a deadbirthed ideology. It's clear that not even Moore really believed in it from all his moralizing.

>>95022413
Damn...

>>95022241
Yeah, the lesbian taxi driver didn't interact at all with the rest of the cast before that issue...

>>95016421

The point of showing you the daily lives of the small people was so you could put a face to Veidt's atrocity.

>>95023204
Right, she threatened to beat up the vendor unless he put up the LGBT poster on his stand. How could I forget.