The west randomly decides to write a show with an overarching

>>94917782
Overarching storylines are kind of thing in new shows though, to the point where /co/ keeps complaining about modern cartoons being too into the DEEP LORE and not just being episodic comedies like the 90's/early-2000's cartoons

>>94917842
>to the point where /co/ keeps complaining about modern cartoons being too into the DEEP LORE and not just being episodic comedies like the 90's/early-2000's cartoons
lol who the fuck wants boring ass comedy

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>>94917782
I'm afraid you're quite misguided, OP.
Sad as it may be, the early 2000s level of talent is long gone from the Western animation industry.

>>94917853
Lots of people apparently.

Gravity Falls - ongoing mystery plot, was big on /co/ and then people melted down

Steven Universe - ongoing plot with an alien invasion and crap and /co/ drives it out for being too girly

Ducktales - Looks like it's going to have some sort of plot involving the triplets missing mother and in the threads people are unhappy and want it to be self contained adventures

There are other shows that are doing it but these are the three that come to mind.

>>94917945
sad

>>94917842
Problem is they don't have an overarching plot, they have episode of the week with a few plot threads that get brought up whenever the writers feel like it, in Avatar the journey was constantly progressing, the episodes where it slows down like the Great Divide and the Fortuneteller even got mocked in the show itself

Watching stuff like Steven Universe and Star Wars Rebels or whatever and the shows only pick up the story now and then, usually you've got something going on in the first episode of the season that gets resolved in the last episode of the season, and everything in between is just filler

It doesn't matter if something has "DEEPEST LORE" if the show's plot only has an impact now and then

>>94920765
>the Fortuneteller even got mocked in the show itself
>things that never happened

>>94920790
Sorry, got it wrong in the hurry, but I checked and they definitely mocked the Great Divide

>>94920957
It was mocked for being terribly written, not for being episodic though. Many of the other episodes are quite standalone, but well-regarded.

>>94921009
Most of the episodic ones tend to be the least well regarded in the series

>>94920765
Steven Universe kind of has its plot low-key involved in almost every episode though. Stuff that happens, even in the non-gem 'Townie' episodes still matters and the relationships between characters change over time.

>>94921080
So they've got like 4 and a half seasons now? How much has changed with the world since then?

>>94917853
Better than having to put up with a million episodes of lame writing to be slowly drip-fed a derivative story that will inevitably end in a disappointing way.

>>94917782
>instantly eclipses ~99% of Japanese animation.


it doesn't even compete with 80's anime, nigga

>>94921527
>implying 80s anime wasn't best

>>94921527
Only a handful of the best anime ever made are overall better than ATLA, and even then ATLA is still better in specific ways.

>>94921161
Well the characters discovered a several thousand year old plot to destroy the earth by using the ruined bodies of prisoners of war to make a superweapon and barely managed to put it off, the alien homeworld is now aware of earth once again and their god-queen leaders have taken an interest in it, the protagonist has learned how to access more of his abilities and use them in combat and there is now a small underground resistance on the aliens home planet being lead by a retail clerk who was brought back from the dead.

The world is mostly the same, but what really matters is that the stories have advanced.

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>M-M-M-M-M-MUH SERIALIZED STORYTELLING IS HOLDING ANIMATION BACK
>there still aren't any cartoons that are as good as cowboy bebop, an almost completely episodic show

the problem isn't that the west doesn't get to do one large epic story, it just sucks at making good small stories.

>>94921625
Not him, but you're retarded.

>>94921646
I am me, but you're retarded.

>>94921643
It's the little things that matter.

>>94921643
>an almost completely episodic show
Hence why Bebop is a joke and you shouldn't have bothered mentioning t.

>>94921646

He's right though. Most anime is pretty bad, especially shonen.

Avatar manages to do in a single episode what most shonen take entire arcs to jankily acomplish.

The writing in avatar is concise and consistent, the action flows very well, power levels are kept checked and the narrative has great pacing.

That's pretty hard to find in most anime. The one show I think can compete to Avatar's level of quality is FMA.

>>94921817
Not him, but is that why it's like THE most recognized anime of all time?

>>94921817
But you realize how telling it is that there really aren't any american shows that even come close to bebop levels of objective quality, when bebop was a pretty run of the mill space western anime, right?

>>94917782
Based Netflix is giving us Voltron and LEGO Elves though

>>94921833
>Avatar manages to do in a single episode what most shonen take entire arcs to jankily acomplish.
This reminds me. Someone said One Piece was better than ATLA and I literally laughed out loud.

>>94921833
>The writing in avatar is concise and consistent, the action flows very well, power levels are kept checked and the narrative has great pacing.
PLEASE tell me this is a joke... sigh.

Who am I kidding, of course it's not a joke. This is why Western animation is a miserable failure.

>>94921817
it's rare that I see a pleb even plebbier than myself

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>>94917782
>>94921833

>>94921627
To be honest it seems to be very minimal considering they've had 4 seasons.

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>still no western berserk inspired cartoon
>no good berserk anime

>>94921845
>when bebop was a pretty run of the mill space western anime, right?

Kek, fuck off. Bebop is an unmatched piece of serialized animation. Run of the mill my fucking ass, that shit has gorgeous animation, OST and writing that almost no series since has equaled.

>>94921866

I'd sure enjoy some counter arguments and examples instead of that hollier-than-thou weebs always assume when talking about western animation.

>>94921958
More like 2 and a half seasons considering the episodes are only 11 minutes long each so you don't get as much time per episode to develop things.

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>>94921969
nigga it's just lupin III'd in space, or space cobra, or any other of the fucking billion seinen shows in space about sexy sad people out there in japan. Just because its a show with a lot of western exposure doesn't mean its somehow the only fucking one, man. Like shit, go watch some fucking gundam, bebop and all those other shows all come from that same family tree. If you want le sad 2deep adult show watch texhnolyze or something. GITS has more interesting scifi shit going on. Even in terms of tv animation space dandy has surpassed bebop by a wide margin.

Trigun was better than bebop. Fucking outlaw star was better than bebop.

>>94917842
>not just being episodic comedies like the 90's/early-2000's cartoons
Uh yeah no. We had plenty of overarching narrative series in the 90s... Gargoyles probably being the best example. It wasn't all Ren and Stimpy.

>>94921960
Bitch both of the series are good. The movies were meh though.

>>94917782
>instantly eclipses ~99% of Japanese animation
Haha bitch no. Yes 75% of anime is mediocre as fuck, but there are dozens of series more profound than Avatar. And I'm saying that as a fan of Avatar.

>>94922071
>nigga it's just lupin III'd in space

Yeah no fucking shit. That's one of the main inspirations of the show, but the quality of animation and writing is miles above 99% of any serialized anime made before of since it was released.

You have to be retarded to think that Cowboy Bebop is just a "run of the mill" series.

>Fucking outlaw star was better than bebop.

Oh, okay, you are literally retarded.

>>94917782
>eclipse 99% of Japanese animation

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH

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tbqfh I think Teen Titans is more comparable to the best anime, and surpasses much of it.

I mean, for all the shit TT gets for the visual gags, Avatar overuses anime writing clichés WAY too much. TT meanwhile does its own thing with excellent, sometimes bordering on stunning, writing (especially characterization).

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These threads make me mad because they show that /co/ knows NOTHING about nip animation and NOTHING of western animation.

>>94921833
>Most anime is pretty bad
That's a useless statement. Most cartoons are bad. Most TV shows and books and movie are bad. At the very least mostly mediocre.

I'd also argue they're trying to do different things. Once Piece of a soap opera or TV drama for children, pulling people into long-running bullshit for profit. Season one of Avatar is... not as amazing as two and three but it's an adventure with planned goals and characters and an end point. It also helps that Avatar has its story done in about 60 episodes, unlike DBZ, General Hospital, Supernatural, etc. Both ATLA and FMA are 60+ episodes, but neither meanders too much, unlike a lot of shows half or twice those lengths.

>The one show I think can compete to Avatar's level of quality is FMA.
FMA is decidedly not very anime, but still there are quite a few that present a series of good characters and a story progression that isn't fight-a-week. Evangelion, Seirei no Morobito, and Boku Dake Inai Machi to name a few. Ghost in the Shell: SAC is more the formula of mostly unrelated cases with overarching plot sprinkled in.

>>94921865
I've never watched One Piece, but I'll assume this is correct.

>>94922236
>>94922246
Yeah, but at least these bait topic threads can MAYBE create some discussion amidst the waifu threads and bullshit.

>>94922363
Well, you're certainly right about waifu threads being great.

>>94922328

I agree with you on all points. Maybe I should've specified SHONEN anime.

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How many western cartoons are even completely serialized? I've been making threads for Valt The Wonder Deer on here and it's honestly the only one I can think of since Avatar: The Last Airbender. It was funded by the Chinese and aired in China first, but it was made entirely in the US and was supposed to air here eventually.

It's genuine, direct continuity. A proper adventure cartoon, where one episode leads into the next. The animation and humor isn't as good, but I still liked it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=juc2IFHzSSY

>>94922650
ATLA is completely serialized? Say what?
(Or are we just pretending that Book 1 and half of Book 3 never existed?)

test

>>94922691
A serialized cartoon doesn't require that every episode just focus on the plot. It just has to have a narrative flow. The Great Divide, for example, wasn't filler at all. The characters were still moving towards their destination on their journey.

>/co/mr/a/des take the bait

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>>94922747
>The Great Divide, for example, wasn't filler at all. The characters were still moving towards their destination on their journey.

>>94922757
Actual discussion isn't "taking the bait".

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>>94922237
To think that Samurai Jack gets a complete series restore in 1080p and TT gets an abomination called Teen Titans Go!

>>94922134
>but there are dozens of series more profound than Avatar
Nah. MAYBE a dozen but only if you stretch it.

>>94922757
How the fuck is saying a cartoon is better than the vast majority of anime "bait" on the fucking cartoon board. Christ fuck this site.

>>94922779
You can deny it. You'll be wrong. But hey, when has that stopped anybody?

>>94917782
I am extremly well versed in Japanese animation, more than the majority of /a/. I think I watched about 3 episoides of this before totally losing interest. Could you explain why you think it's so fantastic?

My critisism is as followed.
-The visual design of the main character is stupid, it's enough to almost spoil the whole show. Seriously an arrow pointing to his face?
-None of the characters struck my as likeable. I recall all of them were different flavors of bitchy or stupid with a few more stoic ones, usually adults, to play the straight man. It wasn't a charming type of stupidity or a justified or interesting type of bitchy. They just came off
-It is very hard to ignore how it comes off as anime-wanna be. It doesn't feel japanese at all but like a parody of anime, which would have been fine if the show were not serious.
-As is common for the West the show is non-violent to the point of being boring. The only action show the west ever did well was Batman since his entire character is based around not killing. The Western cartoons have always excelled at comedy and light Disney-style adventure while the Japanese have been the masters of action and darker themes.
-The animation quality is very inconsistent, to the point where I'd grade it poorly

I'd give it a 1.5/5

PS There's a reason no one in Japan watched this and most Western fans of it have a weak exposure to Japanese cartoons.

>>94922836
Yeah no. How much anime have you watched? Did you just latch onto shit on CN after you were a kid watching Pokemon? There are decades of amazing titles out there. And I'm saying this as someone with really high expectations.

>>94922929

tl;dr: if the characters don't look COOL and there's no violence in it, it's shit.

Typical weeb response.

Also

>I am extremly well versed in Japanese animation

kekd

>>94922836
Nigga... Mushishi alone is much more profound than Avatar.

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>>94922929

>>94922929
I'll just say, you need to watch more than 3 episodes. Season 1 was just getting into its groove and it's the weakest season overall excluding the season finale.

>>94922929
What's wrong with Aang's tattoo?

>>94922975
>Mushishi alone

Mushishi isn't your average anime, it's a pretty great that is far above most modern anime bullshit.

>>94922826
The original series is available in the 1080p HD it was made in, which is way better than remasters!

>>94922995
There are other good modern series. Like 1-3 series a year are on Mushishi's level typically. I'm not really up on catching new stuff lately, but Zankyou no Terror is a good relatively recent example. The 13 episode series tend to be the strongest ones lately.

>>94922990
If you have to watch 20ish full-length episodes before a show starts "getting into its groove", it's shit no matter how good the later ones may be.

>>94923041
It has good episodes in that first season... I'm just saying you shouldn't judge an entire series based on three freaking episodes. I can't get through the first season of Steven Universe to get to when it "gets good"... but I don't presume I can rate the entire show based on the first three episodes I sat through.

>>94923067
Thing is, in the case of Avatar it's literally like 1/3 of the show that's good (most of season 2 + very small portions of seasons 1 and 3). The rest of it is shit.

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Pic related has a good balance of overarching story and (mostly good) filler imo. It's not god tier like avatar, samurai jack, and gravity falls were, but it's a sign there's still hope. People point out Steven universe's flaws like it represents all of modern Western animation.

>>94923088
I disagree about the overall quality, but that's fine. I held out for years on watching the show since it looked like a weak anime ripoff, was pleasantly surprised with most of the episodes. And they even joked about the worst episodes in the show.

Now if we're getting into Korra, I can bitch forever.

>>94923088

If you have shit taste maybe. The show was a pretty enjoyable watch from start to finish. I have a hard time recallig any outright shitty episodes.

>>94917782
>The west randomly decides to write a show with an overarching narrative and cool powers and instantly eclipses ~99% of Japanese animation.
This never actually happened. This kind of show is just so rare that when one gets made people instantly think it's the greatest thing ever made.

>>94921833
Anime means more than Dragon Ball Z and Naruto.

>>94923039
>Zankyou no Terror
That actualy caught my eye.

What is it about?

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>>94922929
bitch please

>>94923153
Oh yeah, LOK is absolute dogshit. That doesn't excuse ATLA's own writing failures, though - and I'm NOT talking about "The Great Divide".

>>94923097
Fingers crossed that the Eclipsa stuff is good

>>94923200
Did you not like the ending?

>>94922979
No counter points huh?

>>94922990
I'm dissatisfied with the entire cast of characters, the design of the main character, and the animation quality itself. That's not going to change in a few episodes.

>>94922992
Makes him look retarded. Honestly he looks like he came out of a special ed class for monks.

The show has more problems than just Ang though. The entire premise is flawed.

To put it bluntly Western tv cartoons are not fit for action. They are not allowed to be violent enough. There are some good action cartoons but the best ones have always been comedy and until you are allowed to have blood and death on tv that isn't going to change.

>>94923180
Not him but
>Painted in red, the word "VON" is all that is left behind after a terrorist attack on a nuclear facility in Japan. The government is shattered by their inability to act, and the police are left frantically searching for ways to crack down the perpetrators. The public are clueless—until, six months later, a strange video makes its way onto the internet. In it, two teenage boys who identify themselves only as "Sphinx" directly challenge the police, threatening to cause destruction and mayhem across Tokyo. Unable to stop the mass panic quickly spreading through the city and desperate for any leads in their investigation, the police struggle to act effectively against these terrorists, with Detective Kenjirou Shibazaki caught in the middle of it all.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLVy50LnLMM

I personally didn't end up liking it.

>>94923235
Dude, I have serious issues with "The Crossroads of Destiny", let alone the ending.
(Though the lion turtle is NOT one of them at all.)

>>94917923
Why is Gravity Falls included in the list of early 00's shows?

>>94923237
Man, you're missing out on one of the best redemption stories, some of the best worldbuilding, and yes, some of the best action, in animation. Just because it's not overtly violent doesn't mean it has no merit.

>>94923312
I'm not surprised you didn't notice SDMI isn't an 00s show either. Thing is, both series have a lot more in common with 2000s shows than the shit the current Western animation industry spews out, at least in terms of writing.

Mystery actually seems to be the one cartoon genre than hasn't been completely taken over by talentless hacks... or hadn't rather, since I'm not exactly expecting more cartoons like those to come out any time soon.

>>94923180
The other person responded already. It has Yoko Kanno composing. She rarely writes music for a shit series. The backstory stays vague, and that's sort of fine. The main points of interest are the clever terrorist setups and the characters of the two boys. In a lot of ways it resembles Apollo on the Slope, just trade out modern terrorists and abuse of child geniuses for 60s jazz and Christianity.

>>94922975
>Mushishi
Oh that pretentious "seinen" bullshit? lol yea nah

>>94923237
Series has some of the best fight choreography animation of any series in the US and America. Sifu Kisu worked hard on developing all the styles. He's a cool bro as well, was lucky enough to meet him and see him do his thing a few years back.

Even if you know for a fact that you'll never like the character designs or plots, at least look up some of the fights. It's just gorgeous animation.

>>94923410
Calling it "seinen" is limiting. It's not a gender specific series. I've seen so many series and I'm hard pressed to find a series that carries the sort of atmosphere that Mushishi has. Mononoke sort of gets there, but for all its weirdness, it doesn't have that offputting yet comforting feel of Mushishi.

>>94922961
Haven't watched many, just the ones that are widely considered the greatest. And only a few of them can be considered better than TLA.

>>94923433
The choreography is amazing, but the fights are all but meaningless.

Not that that is a problem unique to Avatar, but yeah...

>>94923237
>They are not allowed to be violent enough.
Pft who gives a fuck.

>>94923385
I never liked Scooby Doo and never watch any series so I would not recognize the series title and when it was made.

>>94923334
Let me contexutalize this. If the only animation you have seen is Western stuff Avatar is probably mind-blowing. But to someone that knows anime there's nothing special there.

You think the animation looks good because during the key moments it's very detailed and fluid. However it is filled with inconistant and down right shoddy work in other parts. So no your animation is bad, it's good for western standards, but bad compared to the whole world of animation.

Likewise the world and characters are going to seem incredible if it's being compared to all of the comedy shows that dominate western tv or the shallow 80s/90s which were toy commercials.

The action scenes boring. No one can get hurt because it would upset the network censors and I wouldn't care if anyone gets hurt because the cast consists of ugly obnixious characters.

There's a reason the show was laughed at when they aired in it Japan and it left the air almost immediately. Because it can't compete and it's attempts at seriousness are downright laughable.

I don't hate western animation. But avatar is not a good show.

>>94923560
>Likewise the world and characters are going to seem incredible if it's being compared to all of the comedy shows that dominate western tv or the shallow 80s/90s which were toy commercials.
Nah it parallels the greats of anime.

>>94923097
Star and Steven are different types of the same problem. Star has a whole load of nothing orbiting a plot they never get around to (until season 2), and Steven thinks adding more unresolved plot threads does it a service. I like them both, especially Steven. The "nothing" gives space for character development and interactions, some good one-offs and humor.

But svtfoe could do with a lot of the first season being... better. Introduce the plot earlier, and use the dimension premise for more than just explaining magic and jokes. Do something before the 11th hour other than jokes. Have to admit, Ludo in season 2 almost makes season 1 worth it alone.

And SU could do with everything after the first season moving at a quicker pace with less shit episodes. Weaving separate narrative threads together is fine, but it would give the show a better sense of progression to, say, deal with one before thread 12 is introduced. They also fucked up the minute you tried to make Onion anything but creepy.

>>94923237
Your criticism doesn't say much aside from Western cartoons can't be as violent.
>Aang's design
Subjective, and no worse than the billions schoolboy As or belt and leather, short skirt in combat, red trench coat that have anime protags somewhere between boring and actually retarded.
>characters aren't likeable
The entire main cast play off each other and develop, even if they all start at "child kid boy". But that's a different shade of crap. Most anime, especially adventure or shounen, have man child, girl, edgy guy, stoic girl, thug, idiot, and pervert as their main cast. So, annoyances that develop versus tropes that might develop.
>it's boring
Again, subjective. Episodes I didn't like involved the ones that were less mature (season 1 mostly), and it never seemed slow. And for reference, I thuroughly enjoy .Hack//Sign and Lain. Of the anime I've tried to watch in the last few years, only a few have non-garbage pacing in the first 4-10 episodes.

>>94923555
Mystery Inc. is far, far darker and more interesting than anything else the franchise has ever produced. I'd give it a chance even if you never liked Scooby-Doo at all.

>>94923560
But you've only seen the first three episodes of the show. You're making these sweeping generalizations based on nothing more than a smug sense of assured eastern superiority.

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>>94917782
Well that's disappointing.

Slightly relevant question for all of you /a/nons.
Can you top pic related with an anime that is similar to it or greater?

>>94923512
You are underestimating the depth and breadth of anime. There's been close to two thousand shows since the 1960s in every possible genre, mostly story-driven ones and with very few or none of the restrictions that American animation has labored under.

>>94923674
As someone who's rewatched the whole series numerous times: he's right. Also, the first 3 episodes are actually very plot-focused, and it's downhill from there for some time.

>>94922979
>calling something bait in a bait thread

>>94923560
>You think the animation looks good because during the key moments it's very detailed and fluid. However it is filled with inconistant and down right shoddy work in other parts.
You're talking about anime here right? 'Cause I'm pretty sure this describes most anime across all genres.

>There's a reason the show was laughed at when they aired in it Japan and it left the air almost immediately.

Because cultural differences and expectations are more complex than you're making them out to be, and a general audience's expectations color initial impressions in the same way that most people from the 80s or 90s would laugh at all shounen for it's dumb plots, absurd designs (in most), and drastic quality dips along with morality somewhere around grade schooler?

>>94923606
Yeah the characters in Berserk and the world building in Legend of Galactic Heroes has got nothing on a story about obnoxious, bickering children going around a faux-asian world by people that seem to have gotten their idea about Japanese culture from watching ninja turtles, naruto and karate kid.

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>>94923237
>To put it bluntly Western tv cartoons are not fit for action.
>They are not allowed to be violent enough.
Now this is a problem that is not talk about enough, as far as i can tell the only one that got away with it was Samurai Jack and they got around it by turning everyone into robots

>>94923674
What's sweeping? The animation and characters are the same through-out all the show.

>>94923770
Anime has vastly better animation across the board than American shows.

And he is probably right that Avatar failed in Japan because it was just a pale and foreign imitation of something that's been produced by the truckload in Japan. They're not exactly starved for fantasy action adventures.

>>94923770
>Because cultural differences and expectations are more complex than you're making them out to be
No, he's actually right. Consider that TMNT '87 is still extremely popular in Japan, while the '03 version is far more popular in the US, even though it's all but forgotten there too.

Japan laughs at silly Western attempts to make serious animation.

>>94923512
>>94923708
Anon is right. There's a lot of good anime. Being as good or better than TLA isn't super rare, though comparing Avatar to comedies or dramas or other genres warps some comparisons.

>>94923840
>characters are the same through-out all the show

They all get a ton of development. Nobody is the same by the end of the show. If you're talking about the character designs, they get new outfits each season, but if you just hate how their faces look, I don't understand why you think they're ugly.

>>94917782
Congratulation the west do their tesuwa atom, Let see how long it will take so they make their space battleship yamato.

>>94923770
But annon the 80s and 90s anime were known in the West. They were exciting! More violent, darker themes, scifi concepts rarely explored in western cartoons, cool demon designs.

>You're talking about anime here right? 'Cause I'm pretty sure this describes most anime across all genres.

Japanese stuff is on average more consistent. The unsmooth parts in Claymore are a lot less noticable than the ugly bits in Avatar.

To restate another point. The west fails at action shows because it is not allowed to be violent. As a result the majority of it's good action shows have to be silly light hearted capers which while fun struggles to compete with the darker stuff the Japs can do for attention. I think the best action stuff the west does is Batman. Not only does he have a reason to be non-violent but he has the best rogues gallery of silly characters.


>>94923817
Yep. And even the Japanese have better robot fights. In a Jap robot fight the carnage is brutal enough to make it feel like they are made of flesh. They tear the robot's arm off and you can see wires snap, the robots body will pierced and it's metal hull shredded up almost like it's made of flesh. And the robots either have feelings, making them essentiall human or there is a human pilot in them that is killed off.

The west's strength has always been comedy, something the Japanese fucking suck at.

>>94923609
The thing for me is filler in season 1 of SVTFOE is actually enjoyable (with some misses like the party bus and the banana episode where the characters feel OOC) while the filler in SU is boring as shit. I know that's just a personal opinion but I can't watch SU because of it. Also, all the foreshadowing with Toffee and the true nature behind Star's race kept me interested for season 2, which is when shit gets amazing. Star also has a good cast of secondary characters (Tom, Jackie, Janna) that get a good amount of screen time without being intrusive, while SU gives an obnoxious amount of time to characters I hate.

>>94923754
You think the characters, worldbuilding, action, and animation are all pale imitations of anime? I would agree that the animation can't match the very best of the east, but it ain't no slouch either. The rest I would argue matches some of the best anime out there.

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>>94922486
Wait. Did I just witness a civil discussion on /co/?

>>94923817
The turtles did it first.

>>94924186
>You think the characters, worldbuilding, action, and animation are all pale imitations of anime?
They're worse than pale imitations, anon, they're literally direct ripoffs in most cases.

>>94924128
Action doesn't necessarily need violence. Pretty Cure has some good fight scenes and it's for elementary school girls. Although maybe even its level of violence is too much in the US...

>>94924078
The thing is why should I care? You're talking like character development is something special, like there are not dozens or even hundreds of anime that feature character development and a gradually expanding world.

I could watch any of these instead of Avatar and in almost all cases the characters would be prettier. Seriously just look at the girls in Slayers or Dirty Pair, two anime I havn't even seen and the female characters are way way more appealing than anyone in Avatar. Or literally any Shounen protagonist compared to Ang, at least they have hair on their head!

The only reason anyone cares about Avatar is because the West made it.

>>94924274
Are western tv shows even allowed to show people punching each other like the Pretty cures?

And even if it is. No one is going to say the Pretty cure's action is as good as Berserk. Violence is a HUGE factor in deciding how satisfying an action scene is.

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>>94917782
>instantly eclipses ~99% of Japanese animation.
Avatar is just an above average shonen anime by the standards of anime, and in Japan it did so poorly they never dubbed the third season. Avatar isn't something incredible, and all the praise it receives is an indictment against the cesspool that is western animation.

>>94921865
>This reminds me. Someone said One Piece was better than ATLA and I literally laughed out loud.

Are you retarded?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O9F5PHjQU9M

>>94924401
>Are western tv shows even allowed to show people punching each other like the Pretty cures?

Actually i was afraid to ask but i heard something like that before saying that some action shows didn't allow punching, i think it might have been a spiderman show but i can't remember

>>94917782
Even at 99% of Japanese animation means hundreds of shows are still better

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>>94924312
>the female characters are way way more appealing than anyone in Avatar.
The girls in Avatar aren't all that visually appealing, gotta admit. BUT the girls in Teen Titans are better-looking that those of ANY anime I've ever seen, sorry anon.

(Feel free to try to disprove my point with pics, but I doubt you'll find any.)

>>94917782
>a couple of guys do a good job and puts a lot of thought and work into a show
>translates into all of the west
>somehow random
That's stupid. You're stupid.

>>94924446
>in Japan it did so poorly they never dubbed the third season.
This is highly inaccurate, for one thing they never dubbed it because the entire Nick channel shut down, and Nick isn't exactly known for anime ripoffs (AFAIK Avatar is the only one), so it couldn't be because of that.

Second, an official dub was finally released last year, and it's on Amazon Japan.

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>>94924581
Easy.

>>94924581
Nobody can disprove your preference but objectively speaking anime has more attractive characters.

>>94924177
I generally disagree with your opinion of SU, but to each their own. To me things like Tom's weird become-friends-with-Marco arc is as enjoyable as the townies in episodes focused on Steven. And then episodes like the bus are comparable to the restaurant episode, where its boring and dumb and I don't care about anything but Pearl in a tux. Not saying the SU filler can't be boring, but no worse than SVtFoE to me in most cases. If anything, Star underutilizes what's good or potentially interesting (other dimensions, Tom's interactions) while Steven overuses shit only the writers seem to like.

Also I never remember Jackie being interesting. Janna's a riot at all times though.

Is the banana episode the one that ends with Marco saying "I should have believed in you," only for Star to take it like a knife to the heart? I don't remember the episode, but that moment stuck with me.

>>94924699
Lol no. They look like aliens. Certain animes can get it right like Android 18

>>94924826
Teen Titan's designs are a quasi-anime.

Sexuality--explicit and implicit--has been an accepted part of manga, anime and games since the 70s and 80s and people have spent decades designing characters of every possible type meant to be sexually and romantically attractive. Character design is a highly refined art in Japan while in the US it's barely even in the vocabulary. It's much more creative, and when it comes to animation there's a drastically higher level of detail.

>>94924581
>this meme again

>>94924826
>They look like aliens. Certain animes can get it right like Android 18
I'm guessing this is sarcasm, right?

>>94924976
How is it a meme? There's no message to it, it's just a character grid.

>>94925017
some shiller keeps copyposting it in threads like this

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>>94924581
This is a male anime character. He's hotter than 99% of all western female characters.

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>>94924581

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>>94925168

>>94924128
>Japanese stuff is on average more consistent.
Maybe I don't notice in in western stuff. Or maybe I've seen more anime and thus have a larger pool for reference. Or maybe I expect more from that style.

You're right that anime can be more violent, so it can do action better.

>>94925168
>>94925192
>>94925434
Fugly (and lol), fugly, fugly.
>>94924695
Now this is some serious competition, if only they were older though.

>>94925620
See >>94924931

This is just the same thing as Avatar: America makes an attempt at something and immediately it's the best thing ever. Because America.

>>94925749
You retarded? I'm just comparing character designs based on the pics posted, I don't give a shit where they're from.

>>94925784
You said:
>BUT the girls in Teen Titans are better-looking that those of ANY anime I've ever seen, sorry anon.
And I responded. If you think responding to posts is retarded then maybe you should leave.

>>94925819
That's not the post you linked. And I did invite counterexamples, where's yours BTW?

>>94917782
>the west

just say the US. fuck.

>>94925846
I didn't say it's the post I linked. It's the post you made earlier. Surely you can recognize your own posts.

> And I did invite counterexamples, where's yours BTW?
See >>94924931

>>94925902
That's not an example.
And you're literally saying "it's better because it's better", which is exactly WHY I asked for examples.

>>94924978
Android 18 is so god tier that her 5head and alien features complement her.

>>94925979
I didn't say it was an example. You seem to have a really difficult time understanding what people tell you.

>And you're literally saying "it's better because it's better"
America cannot compete against Japanese character design, and it's your own position that's just "this is American so that's why it's the best."

>>94926037
>this is American so that's why it's the best
That is NOT my position. It is, however, YOUR position regarding Japan.

Look, we work with evidence here. Give me proof, show me the anime girls who look better than that. Otherwise this is pointless.

>>94926117
It is your position but it isn't mine. Japan is so far ahead that this isn't even a contest. Character design barely exists in America and moe exists even less. This is another case of America showing up to a competition it's completely ill-equipped to be in, and declaring itself the winner just for showing up.

>Look, we work with evidence here.
Again, you seem to have a really difficult time understanding what people tell you.

>>94926234
I'm going to have to take this as you not having any examples of more attractive girls from anime, and desperately trying to deflect.

>>94926328
This isn't about examples. It doesn't matter what examples anyone posts. People could spend the next week posting examples and it wouldn't make any difference. Your position is that because America made an attempt at something it's the best, period.

There is no deflection here. You seem to have a really difficult time understanding what people tell you.

>>94926408
>this level of projection
Oh dear.

>>94924814
I can't tell if you're shitting on Tom but I fucking love him. He's always used perfectly and has great chemistry with everyone. Jackie is interesting because of the conflict she starts, but yeah she isn't as great as the others. Janna is perfect and I'm really glad they put more focus on her.

Yeah, that's the banana episode. The ending still makes no sense to me.

Maybe I'll try SU again at another point, but I'll probably skip a lot of the filler.

>>94926435
There is no projection. I've explained why Japan is better. You seem to have a really difficult time understanding what people tell you.

>>94917782
>le ebin West vs East flame bait
Kill yourself.

>>94926037
The fact that the Americans borrow their character design from the Japs more and more shows that the Japs are better.

And the fact that the Japanese, rather than getting envious laugh at the American attempts to imtitate their style shows that the West is a poor apprentince.

The truely ironic thing is that only a few decades ago it was the Japanese who were the apprentince. The two earliest anime movies were Sasuke the Magical Ninja, and The Tale of the White Serpent which were poor imitations of Disney-style they even had an ugly bambi rip off.

Astro-boy the prototype for all anime young men is a Pinnachio rip off! All the cute anime girls we know and love are derivative of Snow White.

The Japanese spent decades copying the West until they finally mastered their style and surpassed them.

Meanwhile the West forget how to make beautiful Disney-like characters and gives us ugly tumblr-turds while occassionaly trying to ape the Japanese.

>>94926451
Whatever you say, anon. Whatever you say.

>>94926457
Pinocchio didn't invent the concept of an artificial person, and Tezuka did a manga inspired by Metropolis years before Astro Boy. His character design style was based on cartoons rather than Disney's realistic looking movies. He also wasn't the sole influence behind manga/anime character design. Later designs are so far removed from American cartoons that it's just plain wrong to say they are derivative of them.

The post-war infatuation with Disney didn't last long either.

>>94926451
um, no sweetie.

>>94926775
Try actually reading the thread.

>>94926708
You misunderstand me. Astro boy's art style is inspired by Pinocchio, not the concept. Their facial shape is very similar, especially the eyes. Some of the poses Pinocchio makes also seem very similar.

> Later designs are so far removed from American cartoons that it's just plain wrong to say they are derivative of them.

Correct. They did quickly make their own style. But seriously. Watch the two movies I mentioned: white serphent and Magical sasuke. The disney influence in them is fucking blatant.

Look at Snow White compared to the very earliest of moe girls.

Oh. Some non-disney influence for you. Look up a picture of Felix the cat frowning. Now look up a picture of Sonic the Hedgehog. Look up the 1950s Fleischer Superman and compare the coloring to the OVAs of the 80s and 90s.

It is respectable that they learned from Disney and other big Western Studios like Fleicher because at the time they was the best; that is why Japan went onto become an animation nation while countries that stubbornly refused to copy the West (like say France) took so much longer to start producing cool cartoons.

>>94926792
see>>94926775

>>94926908
I've never associated him with Pinocchio or seen Pinocchio mentioned anywhere in books about Tezuka.

Yeah, they did make movies inspired by Disney, but Sasuke and Hakujaden were before Astro Boy and their character designs weren't Disney or cartoon-inspired.

>the very earliest of moe girls
As in what?

>>94926949
Try. Actually. Reading. The. Thread. What is so difficult about this? What are you doing here?

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>>94917782
this thread again

>>94926440
I thought I'd hate Tom, but enjoyed him more every time he showed up. Like I said, they don't use him enough. Did he even show up twice in season 1?

To me the ending was Star being devistated that Marco didn't have faith in her ENTIRELY. She threw his banana thing on the ground in this sad state of angry disbelief.

>but I'll probably skip a lot of the filler
Not a bad strategy. I'd stick with most of season 1 (or at least episodes 1-24), since it slowly drops hints and foreshadowing and character bits, but there is some terribad filler later on. Onion Gang and Restaurant Wars, and basically any Renaldo episode can die in a ditch.

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>>94917945
>Ducktales - Looks like it's going to have some sort of plot involving the triplets missing mother and in the threads people are unhappy and want it to be self contained adventures
That sounds like Sonic Underground

>>94927527
Tom has 5 seconds in one of the earlier episodes of S1 and all of blood moon ball, but that's it.

That episode is easily my least favorite in the series. I liked Marco's parts but Star felt so obnoxious.

I guess I'll try that. i do remember really liking the Stronger than you episode, whichever season that was, except for whenever Steven was around.

>>94927842
>1 episode and 5 seconds
That sucks. Glad he got more time. Hope he gets more. I need to catch up and watch the... movie? Is it a movie or just four or five episodes they strung together as a "movie"?

It's season 1 unless they changed it again. Season 1 was 26 episodes, then 52, then 49 or some shit. Maybe I'm just remembering what fans called season 1 based off nothing but their own bitching.

And Steven gets better as a character. I know everyone that wants you to watch their favoritest show says that, but his maturation ramps up and he discovers his main super power: empathy and communication.

>>94917782
I've never watched Avatar, but do you know what pisses me off about it? It's Asian themed. It's like they think anime is popular because it features an Asian culture, but that is completely wrong. Am I the only one that this has ever bothered?

>>94928432
It's just a few episodes tied together as a movie, but they're all amazing. It's like if storm the castle was several episodes long.

>>94928490
I guess I could see why you would think that. Like when you get into anime and then all your family members just buy you vaguely Asian looking things and it's annoying.

But no, it doesn't bug me.

>>94928705
Neat. Will get on that.

>>94928490
anime IS a asian culture.

media is part of a culture. anime comes from asia. It's asian culture.

I think what you mean is "traditional asian culture". Anime is about taking traditional bits of culture and modernizing it. For instance making the ninjas into cyborgs. When they do have purely traditional things it's always very dark and respectful stuff.

Avatar doesn't even portray traditional japanese right, it mixes it up with Chinese stuff and comes off as a goofy parody more than inspiration. It's about the equivelent of if someone made Captain Pronen but that did it seriously.

>>94929545
>Avatar doesn't even portray traditional japanese right
Implying that was even a goal.

>>94930962
No but it's nessiary to avoid coming off as a cheap knock off; which what it is.

Avatar is fortune-cookie nonsense that takes itself serious

>>94929545
Avatar was SUPPOSED to be based on ancient China though, not Japan.

>>94931066
And it's still fortune cookie nonsense. It's a a tacky attempt to ape Asian stuff done in bad taste. If the show didn't take itself seriously it might have worked.

>>94931102

What does that even mean? Give an example.

>>94922071
Trigun was shit

>>94931115
How about the pseudo mysticism stuff that's eastern flavored? It's all done seriously. Or the master-pupil relationship dynaics which seems like they got their inspiration from karate kid and watching Splinter in TMNT. It all has this obnoxious pretentiousness to it.

It's not the specifics though but the whole thing. In general though it's not convincing of it's Asian aesthetics. You can instantly tell it's made by Westerners. It seems like they didn't do it with any respect. There's a reason this stuff is called Americanime and is made fun when it's sent over seas.

>>94931214

Respectfully, it sounds like your beef's with American knowledge of Asian culture in general, and you just happen to be ragging on Avatar.

But out of curiosity, what does it get wrong about the mysticism or master-pupil relationship dynamics?

>>94931247
>Respectfully
I'm not sure whether you are using that word to be two-faced or are just really that retarded.

>it sounds like your beef's with American knowledge of Asian culture in general
Now you're pulling shit out of your ass

>But out of curiosity, what does it get wrong about the mysticism
I don't even know how to respond to something as profoundly stupid as this. It would be like if someone wanted take the religious symbolism in Hellsing seriously and ask what the show portrays wrong about Christianity (fortunately Hellsing does not take it's mystism seriously)

You can talk about the profoundness of Avatar's mysticism and master-pupil dynamic all you want bro.

>>94930999
>No but it's nessiary to avoid coming off as a cheap knock off
So the actual aims of a show do not matter, but how well it manages to get the depiction of a culture right, according to some arbitrary definition, is crucial in determining its worth.

>>94931309

I said nothing of the profundity of Avatar. I asked a question, but you're clearly more interested in raging than having a conversation. You do you, bruh.

>>94931311
It's a matter of immersion. Watching westerns clumisily ape another culture fueled by their love of naruto distracts from the artistic premise.

>>94921865
I mean One Piece does do plenty of things better than Avatar. The world building is better the art style is better the comedy is better the character designs are better the fights are more creative. But let's not pay attention to those

>>94931394
>art style is better
>comedy is better
Now you're just lying
One Piece is ugly as sin

>>94931422
Not him but Avatar has some fucking abyssmal character designs. Ang just looks aweful. Bald kids aren't cute. Katara is fugly.

Fuck even their names are ugly.

By the first 2 eps of one piece I felt something for Luffy and wanted him to succeed by the first 2 eps of Avatar I had felt so little for the characters that if any them were to be harmed or upset I would feel no empathy for them.

>>94931448
The author did a great job of making us like luffy but one piece is still fucking ugly

>>94931463
>Ugly
No it is not. One Piece has an exaggerated and cartoony artsyle that focuses on carcitures and has shittons of energy and charm. Its much more unique than Avatars only slight deviation from the base anime artstyle.

>>94931514
>No it is not.
Yes it is.

>>94931514
Sam other annon.

One Piece's style is great, that's why it did get imitated a bit. One of the things that it does objectivily well is variety of characters. It can do characters in the extremeness of young, old, fat, thin, laneky, or hulk.

Avatar with it's generic-animique knock off has a poor variety. It can really only do young characters of general fittness. And yet despite it's genericness it misses teh point of anime style. Ang isn't a bishounen. None of the girl's are bishoujo. So not only do we have a bunch of samey characters but they are not even attractive looking.

No one imitiates 'avatar style', because avatar doesn't even have a style it's just generic animu but making everyone ugly.

>>94923794
Berserk is a joke and no one cares about LotGH.

>>94931787
Struck a nerve?

You didn't even bother responding to the points, just channeled your bitterness into the first words that popped into your head and hit 'send' huh?

>>94917782
Tried to like it as a kid and again later as an adult. This show is jus bland as hell.

>>94923708
Don't think so. If even the widely-considered greats are in the same tier as TLA, then the thousands of other shows must be worse.

>>94924446
>and in Japan it did so poorly they never dubbed the third season
I am confused why people keep bringing up Japan's taste as if it's relevant to what's good or not. Hell westerners regularly criticize Japs for disliking the best anime shows and seasons.

>>94931899
It's blatantly anime inspired. So if the masters of anime think it's a joke that's a really bad sign.

It succeeds in the West because it doesn't have to compete against other anime. Avatar looks great if you put it next to sponge bob, it looks one of a kind! But if you put it next to the countless other action anime it reveals itself as a cheap imitation. It's downright embarassing.

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>>94924581

>>94925858
I don't think there's a meaningful difference in this context. I know other whites can do the same thing white Americans can.

>>94927180
Never said cartoons were as good as anime. I think anime far surpasses almost all cartoons.

>>94917782
>Randomly
They were trying to replicate the success of Lord of the Rings and Harry Potter, the two biggest things at the time.

>>94931394
>The world building is better the art style is better the comedy is better the character designs are better
Not even close to true. The quality per chapter/content in OP is truly awful. OP is given much more time to flesh out these aspects and it still sucks ass.

>>94931999
>it looks one of a kind
>what is Teen Titans
>what is TMNT 2003

>>94931817
You didn't even argue anything.

>>94931999
>So if the masters of anime think it's a joke
99.99% of the anime audience in Japan are not "masters of anime", and again, /a/ and others regularly criticize Jap audiences' taste in anime. That's why this appeal is so retarded. Please stop.

>>94923794
Funny you should mention these two. The world building of LotGH is absolute shit. Historical vignettes showed into a space setting without any rhyme, reason or overarching aesthetic vision. Laughable, really.

As for Berserk, there is a reason two out of three adaptations went on to do the Golden Age: it's the only arc that is actually worth a toss. The characters you refer to pretty much exist only within this arc. The rest is loli witches , mindless demon porn and woeful edgemastery, propped up only by miura's admittedly superb art.

Bonus points for picking two of the most heavily Western influenced works out there to demonstrate the superiority of "Glorious Nippon Animation Folded Over 1000 Times".

Hell, throw in Record of Lodoss War, a D&D game trasncript, and the GitS movie, with it's Gibson-esque cyberpunk tropes galore, while you are at it.

Anime is for fag manchildren.

Cartoons are also for fag manchildren.

>>94932581
I have found Avatar is respected most by people with very little exposure to anime. Of course a knock off will look good to someone who has not seen the good authentic stuff. Which is why the Japanese is such a good barameter. Watch a couple mediocre shounen shows and Avatar is positively boring. See some really good stuff like Ninja Scroll and it's just a joke.
>>94932596
Unless you can actually make a case that Avatar's world building or character is better than Berserk/Logh you havn't even produced a counter argument.

All you did was whine. Oh I'll also throw this out. Berserk and Logh are about men and they have actual violence. Avatar is about children and the network cencors do not even allow the characters to so much as punch each other. And it's supposed to be an action show LOL.

>>94933555
Nobody knows what ninja scrolls is. Why? because it's terrible.

>>94924446
>>94931999
The Japanese didn't like Trigun, one of the best anime ever made. Also I recall it was said Japan didn't ATLA because it portrayed the Fire Nation as the villain, the nation that is imperialistic like Japan.
The Fire Nation takes elements to Thailand and Japan.

>>94924931
The reason art is so crappy in the west is because everyone is complacent and lazy "BUT ITS MUH STYLE"
If you said anything like that in Japan to defend your mediocrity, everyone would tell you are being a lazy and disgusting waste of space, that has no place in this world, and the best part is that you would be told these things politely.

>>94917782
Working hard is a fool's errand. Success in the West is getting the money and delivering under budget so you can say