>"This character is bad" >"Why?" >"They're

>>94823909
To be fair "bad" and "unlikable" are both subjective.

>>94823909
A character being unlikeable is a valid criticism. Especially if they are a main character.

>>94823909

Except a lot of time a character we're supposed to like does in fact come off as Unlikable. E.G Korra

>>94823978


yes but its also vague.

>>94823909
If a person had no likeable characteristics, would you consider them a good person?

>>94823978
You can have an unlikeable, yet good character.
You can enjoy how well-done an unlikeable character is.

>>94824055
A good person and a good character are different things entirely.

>>94823978
It's a valid criticism if your idea of criticism is how much you "relate" to something. As in, bottom of the barrel criticism that requires no actual thinking on your part.

>>94824054

So isn't the context of the thread. We don't know who or what characters are being discussed. It's entirely possible that their unlikability is due to bad writing and not intention

>>94823978
it's only unlikable if the show doesn't call them out on it and acts like the character is good
then it's bad writing
see Korra

>>94823909
A well-liked character usually has:
>Passionate about their job (Even if it's being a serial killer)
>Has a good sense of humor (Dark humor)
>A flaw that holds them back from being successful all the time and thus boring (They feel remorse for the people they eat and it tears them up internally, but the urge to eat delicious human flesh and satisfy them physically is too great)
>Their own personal sense of code (They only eat people over the age of 18)
>A bonus if they have some quirk (They like to prepare human flesh like it's a gourmet French meal)

If even a character like Hannibal Lecter or Patrick Bateman can be considered favorites by people, then their actions are not the problem so much as their reactions. Which is why people hate most of modern Family Guy, because they all act with the same fucking deadpan nonchalant humor where 99% of the jokes is trying to be as insulting as possible while the voice actors phone in their performances and characters shit on each other in uncreative ways.

There's a difference between liking a character in the sense that you want to be their best friend and liking them as a character in a story

I didn't like Mako in Korra because he was a charisma black hole and his romantic angles were some real tepid bullshit that felt like it was thrown in because of a focus test, which is to say in more general terms, I didn't like him as a character in that story

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>>94823909
Wouldn't it be a good character if they were intentionally unlikable like peggy?

>>94824055
Peggy hill is an actual bad person.

>>94823909
It's EXTREMELY hard for unlikable characters to be good characters. Granted, it's not impossible. The most common way I've seen to avoid this is that you make your unlikable character a side character and develop them over time so that we either sympathize with them or they redeem themselves.
like >>94823978 said,
NEVER MAKE AN UNLIKABLE CHARACTER A MAIN CHARACTER.

Good unlikable characters:
>Vegeta from DBZ
>Vriska from Homestuck

Bad unlikable characters:
>Mora Linda from Las Lindas
>The main girl from Bittersweet Candybowl

An unlikable character automatically becomes bad when they get away with shit because the writer is literally siding with them and tailoring the story to them. You might notice furry authors are major offenders in this regard.

>>94825151
Someone never read the KingKiller Chronicles.

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>>94823909
I still stand by my assessment of Enid from OK K.O. Having unlikeable characters is perfectly fine, but in a comedy-centric show like O.K K.O, having them be boring and unentertaining is the bigger issue.

>>94824952
...What? 80% of the plot of Korra is people calling her on her shit.

>>94825451
This. People are constantly telling her what to do and criticizing what about what she did and did not do to the point where the avatar spirit takes control and stops her in her tracks

>>94825151
Las Lindas, now there is a name I haven't heard in awhile. Mora still running around acting like the village cumbucket and being a total bitch to anybody who doesn't totally agree with her?

>>94825275
What's your assessment of her?

>>94825539
Total bitch? Yes.
Mora being a whore hasn't come into play for a long time, though.
I read through it the first time and somehow didn't hate it until I saw the review on the webcomic relief, at which point I converted to total hatred.
I was expecting a redemption story and for Mora to turn her life around, but I forgot this is a furry webcomic and it's been going for over 10 years.
I mean, it wouldn't be the biggest turnaround I've seen (since that title belongs to Panty's redemption in the last few episodes of PSG), I just doubt it will happen.
I wouldn't even fap to her because I'm so disgusted by her character.

>>94825151
>pro-tags have to be likable
Unlikable pro-tags are done well in books, I don't see why comics couldn't do it too.

>>94825151
Vegeta is very likable. he's one of the most popular characters. Most high drama television shows have unlikable main characters like Tony Soprano and Walter White. Do you have a clue what you're talking about? It is not difficult at all to make an unlikeable character good. All they need is depth and understandable motivation.

>>94825451
>>94825524

Not that anon, but that's kinda the problem.

Season 1 was Korra being cocky and getting her shit wrecked by a seemingly trustworthy figure. Then 2 was her being cocky and getting her shit wrecked by a seemingly trustworthy figure. Then in 3 she was cocky but got her shit wrecked anyway, even though the shady characters who barely looked trustworthy panned out this time. Season 4 opened with her being cocky and getting her shit wrecked and I just stopped bothering.

There's no sense of Korra developing as a person because she's literally always cocky and always getting her shit wrecked. She always wants to fuck the douchebag with fire until the last quarter of the story when she wants to fuck the other person who only ever wanted to fuck the douchebag. She literally spends all of her time doing the exact same shit in a cycle and then always having the plot either resolve it because someone else is competent, or because people decide her fuck ups aren't that bad.

>>94826288
>Most high drama television shows have unlikable main characters like Tony Soprano and Walter White.

I can only speak for Walter White but that's different because his character has a very particular arc. He's meant to grow from a normal man to a piece of shit and the fact that he gets less and less likable as a person is very much the core of the show, and the show has other characters like his son have to act as the emotional center at times to counterbalance the bitterness.

When you look at a character in /co/ material who people don't like, it's because they're more or less always douchebags who never develop, and the story doesn't have anyone for the audience to care about in their stead. As much as some other anon latched on to Vriska that's another character who had fuck all development and the only reason it didn't matter was because she wasn't the main character.

Part of the reason half of /co/ is dumping on Rick and Morty right now is the same shit. The show has gone from a balancing act where Rick's cynicism has to deal with some other characters ideals to everyone being a bitter cynic and the whole thing is out of balance. There's no reason to give a shit if anybody lives or dies on that show anymore because they're increasingly interchangeable and the audience hasn't really got a reason to latch on.

>>94823909
I get more annoyed when people say something sucks because the characters who got quickly thrown into a situation no one would ever go through naturally make irrational decisions under stress rather than acting like robots who calculate all the data before making a move.

>>94826365

In a GOOD series there's buildup and justification.

Which is why Evangelion is a terrible sendup of that formula. Kouji Kabuto was specifically brought up with a kind of training and every other actually good protagonist in the genre had his own justifications for being there even if they never did that specific thing before.

That's more an excuse for shitty parodies to take literally random people with no inclination and put them in the same situation.

>>94825524
>>94825451

You're missing the point. Yes she gets wrecked and yes she gets called on it but she still never really learns a lesson that sticks. She gets played the whole series while acting like a turbo cunt and as the audience we're expected to root for her when she's done nothing but be retarded and had to clean up her own messes which she ultimately gets championed for

>>94826385
That's not really a fair comparison though. Kouji Kabuto actually had a motivation to fight Doctor Hell due to the death of his grandpa which made him determined to use the Mazinger as efficient as possible. Shinji on the other hand piloted the Eva out of reluctance due to his father who straight up abandoned him suddenly showing up out of the blue asking him to do this ridiculous favor and when Shinji naturally objected it his father then brought out an injured Rei to guilt trip him. One is a character who wants to fight for a cause the other is some kid who gets thrown into a situation totally out of his control by a manipulative sociopath.

>>94826385

I mean, dudes randomly falling into things is not unusual in animes. Like, Amuro Ray was a fucking teenage mechanic and basically was PLOT'd into the cockpit of the Gundam and then progressively made into The Last Hope For The Federation with fuck all of an emotional background that would let him stand that. And then, oh surprise, he showed a lot of cracks. Shinji is very much in that vein of protagonist, which wasn't really terribly unusual.

>>94825097

Yes, it's what makes some characters great. I watch Game of Thrones, and I really hate Cersei Lannister. I want to see her get eaten by a dragon. That's what makes her such a good character. Same with Peggy Hill. She's supposed to make you cringe and want to see her fail because she has such a high opinion of herself coupled with her abject mediocrity.

People tend to confuse "I hate this character" with "this character is handled poorly". Sometimes the point of a character is that you hate them, like a heel in pro wrestling.

>>94826572
>I watch Game of Thrones
>Using anything from Game of Thrones as an example, period.

Opinion fucking discarded.

>>94823909
The problem comes up when the character is more annoying to the audience than to the other characters. Peggy deserves to be treated much worse.

>>94826424
Until the end of that character arc, in season 4, where she fixes that.

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>>94825583
I'm too lazy to fix most of the errors, so just take a straight repost. I compared Enid to her coworker, Rad, and why he's much more enjoyable to watch. All just my opinion.

Rad is positively riddled with flaws, both from his insecurity and him trying to make-up for it by putting on a careless, macho persona, and he usually gets shit on for it. Be it from his own actions blowing up in his face or from other characters themselves reacting negatively to it.
You can sympathize with him just as easily as you can laugh at his misfortune and mannerisms. He's got a good heart that he's ashamed off and tries his best to never let others, noticeably his peers, know about it because it's "uncool", or in his eyes it is.
Rad is basically a more balanced and likable version of Lars from Steven Universe. Ian did a good job of learning from his girlfriend's mistakes with that type of character.

Enid, on the other hand, is your typical aloof, sarcastic, and too-cool for you teenage girl that mentors a younger, dumber, and more energetically hopeful and eager to please boy.
From what we've learned about her past, her biggest flaw was that she was painfully shy and self-conscious about her self as a child, as most are, something she's since grown out of to an annoying degree.
Now? She's simply lazy and unhelpful, something which repeatedly bites her in the ass, but half the episodes can't decide on if we're supposed to disagree with Enid being so lazy and stubborn, or agree with her since the villains are the people she dissed, then dealt with like all the other antagonists.
It doesn't help that people in-universe constantly praise her outside of K.O, who worships everyone. She's the sickest DJ, the coolest person around, a higher level than Rad, etc. Hell, even in her flashback meant to show how Gar helped them, her problem was that she was literally just too willing to not do her job poorly, scared of disappointing Mr.Gar and losing her job.
tl;dr Enid's really lame

>>94825065
Yeah, but what if a character is a dispassionate, humorless cunt with no personal code or outstanding flaws? They could still be a "good" character without adhering to any of your criteria, as long as they provide a function for the story they're in.

>>94823909
>>"This character is bad"
>>"Why?"
>>"They're unlikable and the writers don't even realise it.

As far as I'm concerned, you can have a likable character that's a horrible person, and you can have an unlikable character that's entertaining. A boring character that's likable is borderline okay. But the worse offender is a character that's unlikable AND boring. If your character has both of those two negatives, you have created a character that NO ONE wants to care about.

See also: Questionable Content.

>>94823909

It's about being able to invest in the conflict. If you don't find the characters appealing or really care what happens to them, them the conflict is much less engaging.

I also think people often misspeak when it comes to analyzing/criticizing art because most of us don't really learn the language needed to do so because doing so isn't our job. Just like most people are bad at explaining politics, science, psychology, or any specialized field using the correct jargon.

But "I don't like them" can mean not just "I just don't care what happens to them." Some characters you hate, but love to hate. Some you can't relate to, but want to see and learn more about them and their world.

And it is subjective to a lare degree. There's no mathematical formula to make every person who sees a particular work feel and think the same way about every aspect of it.

>>94826334

She was most dedicate lyrics not cocky in season 4. She was extremely depressed, unsure of herself, and wandered the EK getting her ass handed to her in underground fights without ever telling anyone she was the Avatar.

>>94827953

Simply serving a function does not a "good" character make. Extras serve functions in a plot, but that doesn't make them what anyone considers good characters.

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>>94825151
>NEVER MAKE AN UNLIKABLE CHARACTER A MAIN CHARACTER.
I disagree with this. Making an unlikable character the main character can work if handled right. Pic related for example is something that would never work if they actually tried to make him likable in any degree because the movie is about taking your usual cop who doesn't play by the books character profile and showing just how despicable they would be in real life. An example of doing it wrong would be That's My Boy where Adam Sandler's character is just a huge fucking cunt to everyone yet the movie expects us to side with him solely because he's the main focus.

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It takes skill to make a character both unlikable but not objectively a bad character. Most of the characters from Shameless especially Frank fits this perfectly. These characters need a certain level of charm to be unlikable but not so unlikable that you refuse to watch them.

>>94827953
Can you think of any examples where that's true?

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>>94823909
In this day and age the audience likes to project themselves into the main charter so they must agree with the said main character's thinking process, ideas and opinions. Similarly, writers like to use them as a mouthpiece and express their own opinions on subjects using these fictional characters. The fact that the audience can get triggered by a villain killing nameless personality less canon fodder in a fictional world is downright retarded.

>>94826288
Walter White is cool and there are plenty of Breaking Fart fans that think he's right.

>>94824114
Like Peggy or Bobby Hill. Bobby is sometimes likable and sometimes a little fucking shithead, depends on the situation he's put in, just like real people. And Peggy has her likable moments but for the most part she's almost unbearable. But they are both very well written.

>>94828289
when most people say unlikable, they are taking for granted that unlikable is mutually inclusive with not entertaining to watch, as opposed to 'the guy you love to hate'

>>94828333
I don't even think they need a certain level of charm what matters most is that the material they're in should be as honest as possible about them. The main character in Shinjuku Triad Society is a total piece of shit but that didn't make me hate the movie because I really wanted to see how his destructive behavior would play out in the long run and there weren't any scenes in it that tried to make what he did seem justified or sympathetic, because there's no way in hell you could expect most people to be ok with a cop losing his temper after being taunted by a prostitute during an interrogation and slamming a fucking metal folding char on her face.

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Be honest, is this guy a good character to you? He doesn't feel very likable otherwise

>>94825151
>An unlikable character automatically becomes bad when they get away with shit because the writer is literally siding with them and tailoring the story to them.
How can you say that yet consider Vriska a good character my man?

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>"This Character is Bad"
>"Why?"
>"You can't Relate to him"

>>94828863
Unless it's a hot chick I really don't wanna be inserting myself into anything.

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>>94823909
that depends on the character. if the character is a villain then of course they should be unlikable.But if a hero is unlikeable, and hes supposed to be liked, then we have a problem. However, not liking a character doesnt mean the character is bad. Theres of course,characters who are unlikeable AND bad, but then theres those who are unlikeable and good.
Anyways i think we all know pic related is why OP made this thread

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What's wrong with unlikable characters you can't relate with?

>>94826572
Game of thrones is not worth watching anymore and that is fact

>>94825151
>The main girl from Bittersweet Candybowl
Holy fuck, that. Exactly after she reappeared (after going to a borading school for a few months after a failed suicide attempt, meanwhile everyone else reached a certain level of stability) shit starts to fall apart again.

Curious to see how this shit ends (even though i don't really follow the comic) since apparently her relationship with the other asshole main character is based (in a few ways) in the author's relationship with his girlfriend.

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>>94823909
>"I don't like you"
>"Why?"
>"You're unlikable"

>>94823978
Bojack Horseman is unlikable but he's still a good character.

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>>94830647
>"I don't like you."
>"Why?"
>"You're not relatable."
Stupid kids.

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>this character is bad
>why?
>they're boring

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>>94827820
Only read the tl;dr, but your opinion is shit.

>This character is bad
>[Demands explanation for a subjective opinion on a chinese cartoon website]
>[List trait they find unappealing]

>>94828405
The writers have admitted to trying to make him more unsympathetic and unlikable. It's why they had that ridiculous plane crash in season 2.

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>>94831007
I realize subjective opinion is redundant butt fuck it

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>"this character is too mean-spirited"

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>>94823978
no

>>94824114
azula