Why does Steve have such a problem with Frank's methods

>>94546514
they weren't uniformed enemy combatants, one of them in fact was canonically some random mook dressed up as a supervillain and not actually Plunderer.
My point is, Punisher is sloppy and a murderer

>>94546514

War and vigilante justice are not the same thing.

>>94546514
Because Nazis aren't citizens.

>>94546543
That sounds like bad writing.
>>94546562
But it's a war on crime, is it not?

>>94546514
Did Steve kill anyone in the original Cap comics? I know Bucky had his backstory retconned a couple years ago. It was said that he was really a child assassin who did the dirty work aka the stuff Cap couldn't do during the war.

>>94546595
>But it's a war on crime, is it not?

No. Frank just likes to think they're the same thing.

Because Nazis are worse than criminals and it's a crime to let them live.

>>94546595
No. War is something clearly defined by humans in treaties. What Punisher does is not war, he's not officially conscripted to fight anything, he does it outside of the law.

>>94546583
Nor are gangsters and supervillains.
>>94546617
I remember that retcon so you may be right.
>>94546633
>>94546663
Fair enough.

>>94546617
He didn't, but people saw it in the movie so they think he did.

>>94547004
Huh, I don't remember him killing in the first movie at all.

>>94547059
I can't remember a specific instance of him explicitly killing someone other than regular "this guy gets thrown off a moving train, over a ledge or is in an explosion but we didn't show their body so it doesn't count" kind of stuff you find in all Golden Age comics, but there was at least one scene where he used a gun.

Look up Posse comataius.

Steve is on again off again millitary. And the millitary has very specific rules about operating in US borders. They're not supposed to just go around shooting people, even if they're criminals.


Also, imagine Captain America vs Kingpin. It would end up with Cap being constantly sued by kingpin's lawyers, and having to spend all his time in court and not following leads.

Some times I feel, that Punisher fans are the worst fans on this board.

>>94546543
I would bet that even if America had a declared war with uniformed enemy combatants, and not one of those shitty police actions either, Cap still wouldn't shoot and kill people. Even if it meant his slower methods would realistcally end up with more US soldiers dying, because of contrivances by the writers.

because thugs and rapists are redeemable, but soldiers with different opinions are evil

>>94547306
>Didn't fight in 'Nam
>Didn't fight in the clusterfuck of 90's Eastern Europe
>Didn't fight in the Middle East wars

Captain America sure doesn't soldier much.

>>94547306
Didn't he kill during Fear Itself?

>>94547365
He had explicit moral issues with all of those wars that were covered in the comics.

>>94547455
I honestly don't remember. I had hit event fatigue before that.

>>94546583
Not all Nazis knew what their country was a giant hungry oven because of the propaganda.

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>>94547365
Not even these guys are bigger draft-dodging hippies

Doesn't Frank hunt down and Frank unarmed people who have committed relatively minor crimes in the past? There's a big difference between that and fighting someone who's actively trying to kill you.

>>94546617
That just make Steve look like a pansy that was afraid to get his hands dirty.

>>94547489
So do significant numbers of the troops deployed, but they went anyways as ordered and did their duty.

Cap really can't have it both ways, calling himself a soldier, but only following lawful orders when the president is from the right party.

>>94547544
Generally when it's someone who wants to hate on guns writing him. A big part of the Punisher formula is that it needs really fucked up criminals who really deserve it to get franked.

Like that woman in the Slavers. Unarmed. But super heinous crimes that she ordered, but didn't do herself at all.

>>94547489
How convenient for him that he can just bail on any war he doesn't approve of.

>>94546655
They're scum Brock

>>94547612
Captain Draft Dodger and President Nixon works for ancient evils.

>>94546663
In the end killing is the fucking same, it's human hypocrisy to think killing in the name of a country is somehow more "valid" than a looney who wages war against crime

>>94547612
>>94547617
That was the whole point of the arc. He didn't want to call himself Captain America/a soldier anymore because he no longer believed America was being lead by people who were following the American way. He thought soldiers were dying pointlessly and didn't like that people were being forced instead of joining out of duty. He was questioning his own morals and allegiances.

Ultimately he became Captain America again to lead by example and represent that America is more than just the politicians and their military actions.

Also he was never actually a US soldier, he was rejected from the army and volunteered for the super soldier experiment. He worked WITH the army but never was officially in the army since he didn't have a public identity and was created in a secret experiment.

>>94547822
>He didn't want to call himself Captain America/a soldier anymore because he no longer believed America was being lead by people who were following the American way.
Sounds like a real faggot

Anyone have the strip of Frank putting Cap in his place, saying the Soviets were the ones to win WWII?

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>>94546514
>war =/= not war

Cap was a soldier and given the right to kill by the military he served. Frank goes about killing criminals and undermining the entire justice system. No matter how flawed it is, you can't have someone out there with enough arms to fight a small army to exact punishment as he see fit. This is also why a lot of heroes don't kill when they are fighting street level, cops barely tolerate vigilantes but murdering ones are seen just as guilty.

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>>94546595
>That sounds like bad writing.

No, it's just the actual hypocrisy of the world we live in

Plenty of people (idiots) believe murder doesn't count as such if it's done under the pretense of patriotism

It's semantics, social constructs, and bullshit. Murder is murder, anybody who's logical realizes this but most human beings are not logical, but emotional morons.

>>94547455
>>94547491
He explicitly kills some evil elves or whatever they were they looked humanoid enough.

>>94546514

Its the way Punisher did it.

Also before recent retcons, Cap didn't really kill anyone in the war. Just subdued and beat the shit out of a lot of people.

>>94547564

No it doesn't, he had fucking superpowers and just didn't need to use guns to get the job done.

>>94547975

That's retarded though. Frank is talking about real life history, not Marvel Universe history.

>>94546543
>>94546562
Yup.

>>94547701
Anyone who doesn't understand the difference is mentally-retarded or deranged. War is an activity that takes place between nation-states. Frank's "war" is a personal vendetta.

>>94548258
>(idiots) believe murder doesn't count as such if it's done under the pretense of patriotism

War is not inherently unlawful.

>semantics, social constructs

Everything in human society is a social construct.

>>94548258
>Murder is murder,

Murder is *unlawful* killing; not all killing is murder. It is lawful to kill in self-defense, defense of another, and (in some places) in defense of property.

>anybody who's logical realizes this but most human beings are not logical, but emotional morons.

Y'all are the one being emotional here, your arguments are unsupported and, yes, moronic.
Don't ever post again, please.

>>94546696
>Nor are gangsters and supervillains

Wrong.

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>>94546543

>Killing an 18 year old boy conscripted into service is okay because he's in uniform
>Killing a mafioso that's raped and killed dozens isn't okay because he's not a uniformed combatant

>>94549721
Exactly. The police and courts deal with those people

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>>94546514
Because unlike in comics not 100% of people charged with something are actually guilty. Even cops make mistakes sometimes when pulling the trigger. Cap is aware this, Iron Man is aware this, every worthwhile super-hero is aware of this.
And even if they are actually guilty is not the place of a "vigilante" to be judge, jury and executor

>"But he's going to escape from prison and kill more"

Unlike comic books show us, prisons (at least in the US as far as I know) are quite effective, heck, the US even has death sentences, but comics choose to ignore this because status quo.

Also, most BBG irl are actually companies that you can't really put on jail. Heroes like the Question target those companies and are seeing the "bigger picture"

>>94549721
>But then, you find out such mafioso is actually innocent and it was all a setup. If only there was a force that made sure people were guilty before sentencing them?

>>94549864
If only it were a funny picture book, where you could be sure he was guilty because it's not fucking real.

>>94549829
>the US even has death sentences
Only in some places, and there's typically a lot of red tape even in those places these days because, as it turns out, people don't come back from the dead in real life so you better be fucking sure you're ready to do it.

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>>94547495
The Holocaust isn't real, anon.

>>94547168
He entered a hangar or something firing a gun, right? Personally I just dismissed it as "covering their entrance".

>>94546617
Argh, that fucking retcon. That fucking run in general.

>>94550307
Then what did Hitler do right?

>>94546514
Because most heros are stupid. They send the villain to jail. He gets out and breaks the law again. Gets sent back to jail cycle repeats. You need to take out the vaillin to be doing any good. It would also make any criminal think twice if they die when they get caught

A major part of Frank's MO is making sure that the people he's offing are people who actually deserve to get offed. He doesn't just go down to a corner and start unloading into whatever drug dealers are there because they're all guilty lmao; he methodically hunts down major criminals, most of whom are effectively untouchable as far as the justice system is concerned.

>>94547168
He very explicitly kills at least two guys on the Red Skull's plane. He grabs one and throws him out of the door at 30,000 feet. And he takes his knife and uses it to stab another guy.

>>94549721
>18 year old boy conscripted

The average German soldier in WW2 was a 27 year old volunteer.

>>94550879
>Average means there are no numbers below said value.

>>94546514
If steve killed his enemies, there would not be anymore CA comics. He would die. He knows and fear that. Frank does not care, he cares only for the mission.
(Every comic character is meta-aware, only idiots and retards like Deadpool reveal their ability to the readers.)

soldiers are just doing there job. i doubt every German soldier believed in the final solution.
rapists and criminals make conscious decisions to do shit out of their own free will.
there's an argument that Frank has a more righteous path

>>94547701

War is not a crime. There are recognised rules laws of war which have existed for over a thousand years.
Even if Frank was fighting a legitimate war then he would still have committed hundreds of war crimes over the years. In war it is illegal to kill a surrendering enemy, torture your enemies for information or to use banned weapons (such as hollow point bullets which have been illegal to use in warfare for over a 100 years).
Frank does all of this shit on a regular basis. The 'war on crime' defence is no defence at all because Frank is using methods which are completely illegal for a soldier to use against an enemy.

>>94546514
We are not in Vietnam anymore there are laws here

>>94551098
It ain't me man

>>94551098
Calling for Raven! It's me, John.

I'd rather be Frank. Steve isn't quite the paladin most people believe him to be.

>>94549885

How can my waifu be real if comics aren't real?

>>94548258
pretty much this. id like to hear the legitimate arguments for why "defending your county and family" is alright when a suit tells you to die in a trench fighting other people forced into it but its not okay when someone does it willingly to kill legitimately evil people

>>94546514
Cap was fighting soldiers not civilians.
Frank makes no differentiation between the two.

>>94548258
>It's semantics, social constructs, and bullshit. Murder is murder, anybody who's logical realizes this but most human beings are not logical, but emotional morons.
the most emotional and human thing in this case is to assume that killing another man on behalf of your nation is equivalent to taking a life for your own selfish purposes.

You think Frank Castle's personal vendetta against all crime is NOT some illogical, irrational dumbfuckery fueled by emotions?
He's an animal. And probably the first one to tell you so.
"Idiots" living in the social construct we call civilization don't murder people. It's a very simple concept.

>>94551437
Although Frank started out with a personal vendetta, he doesn't do it for kicks. I believe his actions benefit his world greatly. Would the people he murders reform after prison? Who knows.

>>94546514
war, at least conceptually, is under the oversight of congress, the president, and the military
franks war on crime was started, approved, and carried out by a single person

soldiers are not judge, jury, executioner, they only enforce
frank decides who lives and dies entirely on his own

soldiers are beholden to international standards, such as not shooting medics, not shooting surrendering soldiers, not shooting unarmed people
frank is governed only by his own code, and not subject to any sort of agreed upon morality

the military can be court martialed for violating any of the above if he is caught in the act, in theory they answer to someone else, they can be reigned in by chain of command
frank answers to no one, if he kills a civilian by accident, nobody is there to chastise him, or to verify if the casualty was justified by the situation

yes, there are sociopaths soldiers who kill and murder with wild abandon, but there are nominally checks and balances to prevent such a thing, and there is the possibility to complain to some one to fix things if they dont work, there are problems with enforcing said rules, but there is moral standard soldiers can be held to
frank has none, not even on paper, and certainly not in practice

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>>94546514
Because cap holds his military service very highly as an expression of honor and freedom, and Frank only joined up to kill gooks. It should be said that captain America didn't ever see the end of the war, or any of the eastern front or pacific theater. He was not in the shit stabbing and shooting his way out of a trench or ever had to witness the Nazi death camps or mass starvation or any of the consequences of the aftermath. It's all like one big john Wayne movie to him.

>Frank is a real piece of work tho, and any well adjusted person should dislike his methods. And gotta know he has killed Innocent people, like, alot of them. I bet you he even knows it, but considers it part of doing business.

>>94546514
Cap only kills when it's necessary, and even then wants to hold back. He's a soldier, and honestly the most reserved one you could find. When he came out of the ice, he managed to avoid killing someone until Flag Smasher's henchmen. Frank actively looks for reasons to kill. He tracks his success with corpses.

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>>94551495

>I believe his actions benefit his world greatly.

His actions aren't allowed to benefit his world greatly.

>>94550879
the average german soldier on the western front were old men and teenage boys because almost all of the german forces were fighting on the eastern front

>>94546514

everyone ITT:

>killing these murdering criminals is wrong. You know what would make it right? Miles and miles of red tape bureaucracy reigned in by corrupt politicians

nah, they're both right. Franks just more effective at getting shit done.

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>>94547890

>>94551837
Cap America was literally brought back in the 60s just so he could soapbox how Stan Lees beliefs were the "most americunz evahh!!"

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>>94551329
They live in all our hearts anon

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>>94553599

>>94551837
Something a Hydra rep would say

>>94551021
>In war it is illegal to kill a surrendering enemy, torture your enemies for information or to use banned weapons (such as hollow point bullets which have been illegal to use in warfare for over a 100 years).
If you sincerely think these laws are actually obeyed then you are ignorant.

>>94553933
Do you sincerely think Cap when written well would perform these acts or tolerate them being performed?

>>94554013
He approved of having subordinates waterboard in Secret Avengers

>>94554084
Hence the well written.

>>94551671
>he has killed Innocent people, like, alot of them. I bet you he even knows it, but considers it part of doing business.
Frank would kill himself if he harmed an innocent. He believes he'd become the very thing he set out to kill and would need to be Punished. Frank never compromises his morality when it would suit him.

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>>94546514
Because it´s not a war availed by the state.
>>94546583
>>94547495

>>94546514
Because it's OK to bomb supply routes and make hundreds of thousands of civilians and PoWs starve. But not OK to kill shitty gangers.

>>94554166
Heh, so Captain America is basically a sum depiction of American people.

>>94546514
Because the war has ended?

>>94546514
It's been a while but if I remember right Frank shot those guys on sight while they were offering to help. He didn't have to accept the help but killing them at that time had no point.

>>94555637
Dude, millar.

>>94546514
Nazis aren't people.

>>94547822
>He worked WITH the army but never was officially in the army since he didn't have a public identity and was created in a secret experiment.

So he just calls himself Captain because it sounds cool? What a fuck fraud, talk about stolen valor. He should be call Citizen America at the very best.

>>94549864

Why is it okay to kill innocent people when they're conscripted?

>>94550432
We don't know what he did right, but we sure as heIl know what he did wrong: nothing.

>>94557059
If he did nothing wrong, then it sounds like he did something at least.

>>94557085
Yeah. He wrote a book and he did some paintings.

>>94551671
However you explain it Frank has never knowingly killed an innocent, and he does keep track. He's just that good, apparently.

Ellis did write a couple of dubious incidents but we can't flat out say he did.

>>94557200
Frank not doing it is more realistic than the Hulk not killing people by accident.

>>94556436
The Army told him he was Captain America and he did what he was told however retarded it was. You don't seem to understand how that sort of environment works.

>>94557231
Yeah. And there is another Ennis bit with some other vigilantes. One of them is a worker's rights sort of guy, only wastes evil capitalists and the like.

Frank does his homework. Turns output the guy doesn't do his. Frank shoots him because he causes collateral damage.

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>>94557334
I think it could have been less that he caused collateral and more that he simply didn't care, which really seemed to piss Frank off, especially since the guy went on and on about how he was a champion of the underclass and all of that.

>>94551724
They probably do, but he's only one mortal man. It also likely operates like most crime statistics. If there is more or less crime a given year is really hard to tell without gathering the data to track it. Perception of crime is filtered through the lens of if it happened to you or someone you knew.

Didn't he shoot two unarmed people that were giving up in this scene?

>>94558011
>They probably do
They don't for meta reasons.
If they did, then he'd wind up without a book and would be perpetually stuck in Punisher kills/vs. The X and other alt. universe stuff and/or delegate him to only showing up in alien invasions.

>>94558657
I don't think you understand how crime works. Modern prisons are stuffed to the brim, and yet crime still exists. Police shoot criminals every day (even ones that surrendered), and yet crime still exists. It's not like it's a limited supply.

Narratively, you also don't get crime rates pointed out all the time. It would be weird if every other issue simply focused on mundane boring happenings to show there is some sort of difference.

>>94558753
I don't think you understand how comicbooks work.

>>94558790
I fully understand, but there's also a logical explanation why a one man war on ALL CRIME wouldn't ever eliminate ALL CRIME. That's ridiculous and unrealistic.

>>94558657
>>94558011
It would probably be far worse if he didn't kill as many as he does.
Let the Avengers and Fantastic Four take worry about Galactus and Spider-Man take care of costumed bank robbers. Frank takes car of franking the street scum just enough.

>>94558753

I believe someone calculated that Frank has already killed the entire criminal population of New York City several times over. I think you're underestimating just how many bodies Frank is putting in the ground, and how much of a deterrent he would be if comic book hand waves weren't a thing. There should flat out be no more (non-powered) crime in New York City, the criminals would move elsewhere for survival's sake if nothing else.

But the point I was getting at in my post is that, no, he can never really improve the Marvel universe because the Marvel universe can never be improved faster than the real world improves. It's the same reason why most of the world continues to be a shithole in pretty much all the same places that it continues to be a shithole in our reality, despite there being at least a dozen hyper-intelligent benevolent super scientists with effectively unlimited resources at their disposal.

>>94559371
Over the course of his existence as a character? I bet that completely ignores the concept of reboots, separate runs, what ifs, and alternate worlds and such. It also ignores a factor of how long it took.

>>94549864
and that's why 616 punisher is dogshit

>>94557085
Then why did he lose?

>>94559371
Put one Maggia in the ground, and their corpse will feed another generation of them.

>>94557199
have you read his book? Its dull as hell

>>94559988
Really? That's a shame, I was looking into giving that a read sometime soon.