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>be 29 >acknowledge that Rob Liefeld is/was a talentless

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>be 29
>acknowledge that Rob Liefeld is/was a talentless garbage pile of an artist
>still sort of like his art because it reminds me of my childhood and feels comfy af
>realize that this means there are probably kids walking around now who, 20 years from now, will find Greg Land's porntracing nostalgic and comforting
>mfw
>>
>>94506362
Rob Liefeld being "a talentless garbage pile of an artist" is a meme opinion to be honest. His art is flawed as fuck and the widespread adoption of his style wasn't healthy for the industry, but it definitely has immense energy and the hyper-distortion and weird coloring/panel choices can work for the right subjects.

I feel like you can't really say Deodato's whole biker chick Wonder Woman run has part art for example. It's distorted and stylized and sexualized and hardly anatomically correct, but still extremely energetic and all these ridiculous roided-out supermen popping up every other page and getting #rekt by Diana or Artemis is fucking great.
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>>94506437
It's a "broken clock is right twice" situation.

More often than not Rob's stuff was anything but energetic: stiff poses, poor composition, most action is big splash images while quiet scenes/exposition get several panels. The times it managed to hit the mark were more accidental coordination than anything.
>>
90's comics are what comics are supposed to be - in-your-face and full of energy and fun.

comics nowadays are over-written garbage written by delusional, limp-wristed nu-males and drawn like storyboards.
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>>94506549
I have only ever heard this from people who grew up exclusively on 90's superhero comics and feel persecuted that the popular consensus is that it was more of a bad time for superhero comics than a good one.

There have been plenty of energetic, fun, outlandish comics before, during and after that period in the Americas, Europe and Asia. What's the point of simplifying the situation like that? Do you really need to fuel your victim complex that badly?
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>>94506601
I grew up on 90s superheroes, and I thought that Liefeld was shit even back then. I was never a huge fan of MacFarlane, either.

What's interesting is that, in both cases, they were the best at selling themselves. That is one of the most important aspect of their success, I believe. If you notice, very few artists since then have them as big influences,with Greg Capullo as the only noteworthy exception. Meanwhile, Lee and Silvestri's influences, for example, can be seen everywhere. Anyone who is semi-serious about sequential art realizes that Liefeld is shit. If you just like to look at the pictures, you probably cannot tell.

Also, both Marvel and DC have been very careful not to build up artists to the point where their leaving can fuck them up the way the Image boys did, so they have been treating artists basically as art robots for 20+ years. It's going to be next to impossible for an artist to achieve superstar status these days.
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>>94506748
Which, coupled with the rise of digital space, has lead to the industry slowly being displaced by independents working on their own projects. Marvel and DC are doing such stupid shot with both their talent and their customers that they're essentially supporting indies and amateurs.
>>
At least it'd be a tiny minority blinded by nostalgia glasses.
You know what's really puzzling? The fact that people like Chris Bachalo right now even though his comics art is Ramos-tier at best.
>b-but he can draw well
I don't care what he CAN potentially do for pin-ups or shit like that. 90 percent of comics where he was an artist are ugly. I can take stylized, i like Eric Canete for instance, but Bachalo is not even good at that.
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>>94506844
No way, he's usually better than Ramos at pencils. WAY less weird goblin faces.

I think the problem is a combination of poor composition and the colorists he gets paired up with not fitting his style at all.
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>>94506837
They have adapted to it. I'm pretty sure after the Image exodus, the thinking changed to not to ever let artists get too big, because that is a huge piano over their heads. People forget that Lee, McFarlane and Liefeld were making millions at Marvel before they left. It's not like they were living paycheck to paycheck. Marvel could not have really done more to keep them, sort of given them creator rights, which they are never going to do.

After Image, both Marvel and DC know that shitty stories done by superstar artists sell. A lot. Something which is not necessarily true with writers. The era of the superstar artist is over.
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>>94507070
I mean, you say "adapted," but it's more like a short-sighted approach to try and keep things under control at the cost of long-term quality problems and the audience slowly moving out from under their thumbs.
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>>94507175
I don't think it's short-sighted. If I were in charge of either of them, I would make it clear that no artist can become a superstar. Just look at big name artists after Image.

Bryan Hitch was stellar in Ultimates. Millar was sold as the man behind the success.

Olivier Coipel and Immonen are the two biggest names at Marvel, but writers are given top billing. It is Straczynski's and Fraction's Thor, not Coipel's. It's is Bendis All New X-Men, not Immonen's.

And DC has Jim Lee, a company man, so no problem from him. It's Snyder's Batman, not Capullo's. Hitch's star has declined and they even let him write, for some reason.

Marvel and DC know exactly what they are doing.
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>>94507330
It's short sighted because they go beyond just stopping artists from breaking out from under them; they straight up aren't competitive with the opportunities artists and writers have elsewhere. The way they handle it makes the other publishers more enticing for the higher-caliber talent and encourages the rise of self-publishing and models like Patreon-funded comics. As they continue to facilitate an environment where only middle to low tier talent is going to deal with their shit more often than not, they slowly lose their grip on the industry because better comics are being offered elsewhere, in some cases for free.

They should be competitive but still make their freelancers and contracted writers/artists feel like it's worth their time. Otherwise they're just allowing their power over the industry to wane.
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>>94507564
This current situation has been going on for 25+ years and it shows no signs of stopping. The best artists still work for them, because they never acquire enough fame that readers would follow them elsewhere. Bryan Hitch tried twice and failed miserably. The second time, he was not even capable of finishing the project.

This scenario that you describe is not happening. Artists do not matter anymore, and have not mattered for years now. All of the Image boys returned to Marvel and DC, except for Todd, who is more of a businessman anyway, and Larsen, who has never mattered. When Kirkman talks about how all artists should work on their own stuff, he does so from behind his TV millions. And let's not forget he also fucked his artist. Ask Tony Daniel.
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>>94507764
Shit, I guess those people supporting their comics through stuff like Patreon, the general rise in the popularity and quantity of independent titles, and resurgence of niche genres just don't exist.

I mean, since DC and Marvel still have the majority of sales through Diamond at the moment, I guess that means that long term changes both have not been happening and will not continue to occur. For a second I thought there were slow building long term consequences to how they've acted, especially in the last 15 years, but since they're still selling pretty well through Diamond at this exact moment that must all be lies! Phew!
>>
Kids today don't read comics
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>>94508001
Yeah they do.
They just don't read Batman and Superman, or at least not the new shit. They read scans of manga, webcomics, OGNs made for school book fairs, and other stuff they can actually easily access.
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>>94507973
This conversation is about artists, particularly the best artists. And those work almost exclusively for Marvel and DC, just like they always have except at the heyday of the Image era.

Patreon, independent titles and so on are okay. But Marvel and DC have top artistic talent grabbed by the balls. This is fact. Unless you care to provide counterexamples.
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>>94506362
>kids reading comics
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>>94507973
>Shit, I guess those people supporting their comics through stuff like Patreon, the general rise in the popularity and quantity of independent titles, and resurgence of niche genres just don't exist.
Yes. The fact that artists are begging for sponsors should tell you enough
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>>94508261
What you posted is true. Even great indie artists like Stokoe did some gigs for the big two
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>>94508261
I mean what do you consider top talent?

Is it the amount of detail, or is it the composition? I see a lot of oldguard at DC and sometimes Marvel, but the samplings I've been exposed to have mostly been pretty mediocre pages that compensate with keen anatomy. There's exceptions, sure, but would you really say the best comic art rather than individual illustrations is coming out of their teams?

I don't have exposure to every single comic coming out each year, but I find that a bit hard to believe. What about your Giovanni Timpano-s out there? How about your Nick Pitarra-s? There's plenty of artists out there who have some pretty damn amazing work both in terms of rendering and their composition, and some of them dabble occasionally with the big two...but there are a lot these days like those guys who pretty much do independent comics. Can you seriously, honestly say that Marvel and DC have the "top" talent locked down just because they have a Capullo or a Bogdanovic around? Does a dynamic couple like Gurihiru on a cute book mean Marvel's got a lock on the best of the best? I don't know. It feels disingenuous to make that kind of claim.
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>>94508601
Different anon. Top Talent is the kind of talent that the mainstream companies want to employ and are willing to pay crazy amount of money for that, not only big two.
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>>94508473
>If it's not the Big Two it's begging.
Shit m8, I better go call Tocchini and tell him that he's fucked now that he does more indie than DC and Marvel.

>>94508641
Then he's definitely wrong, as the other publishers have plenty of top tier talent under their belt.
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>>94506362
If your only problem with Land's art is that it's "porntracing" then I've got some bad news for you - you just have shit taste in art
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>>94506437
>it definitely has immense energy and the hyper-distortion and weird coloring/panel choices can work for the right subjects.
Aren't you, somewhere deep down, truly ashamed to have been parroting the same opinion you caught on some blog few years ago without fully understanding it?

Liefeld never colored his comics.
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>>94508720
>he does
What numbers we are speaking of? Never heard of that guy? Is he a friend of yours?

>the other publishers
The thing is, Dark Horse, IDW, Image, while are making up less marketshare, are not "indie" companies. An example of indie company would be fantagraphics.
>>
Fun fact: Liefeld was highly influenced by Briareos from Appleseed when designing Cable.
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>>94506362
>feels comfy af
So basically still lacking any form of substance and meaning?
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>>94508819
I would be surprised if Liefeld wasn't influenced (read: plagarize) by other artists. His style had this Art Adams wannabe flair
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>>94506362
>29
>still posting here
>>
>>94508918
You are here forever. We still have fags from 2007, who were 20-something then
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>>94508767
>I've never heard of him.
That's nice. Maybe you should try reading Low. It's pretty good.

>Moving goalposts
Rad.
Either way, yeah, you do have quality artists working all over the industry these days. But I mean we can just pretend all the good talent is allocated to a small pool.
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>>94508905
Fun fact: Art Adams did cover for the US versions of Appleseed.
EVERYTHING IS TIED TO APPLESEED.
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>>94508971
>Maybe you should try reading Low
As a matter of fact, I will.

Quality = / = Top Talent.
It's a little like with Rock Stars.
That other anon forgot to tell you that people like Lee, Bisley (anyone remembers him?), McFarlane were treated like celebrities.
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>>94508983
Art Adams is truly a god. And to think that he started his career so early in his life... What is your excuse for not being acclaimed artists, anons?
>>
Even if you hate Liefield, he was massively influential on 90s comic books and he does seem to have a pretty good sense of humor about himself, he's been known to sign pouches people present to him at cons.
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>>94509003
No see there's the problem.

Anon didn't say the most famous or even top tier. They said "the best." You popped in with "Top Tier" after the discussion had already been underway.

They THE BEST artists almost exclusively work for DC and Marvel. I mean, I'd still say that's bullshit if you're talking about top billing considering there's plenty of well known but dick artists working outside of those two...but I'm digressing.
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>>94509140
It's partially true, because what is best for one anon is mediocre for another. Let's put it that way. Someone mentioned Stokoe. I would call him a modern superstar, and he works mostly for IDW.

Then again, IDW is a small company, but maybe they'll grow in the future... Or not.
The problem with this discussion is that it's very subjective, because comic book market is niche, so it's like arguing whether this obscure band is more popular than another obscure band.
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>>94508601
The real world has something else to say about this. Greg Capullo is arguably the top artist DC has. Certainly, one of the most popular. Last year, he published Reborn at Image.

Pretty good stuff. Nobody really gave a shit. He is not even remotely leaving DC. And that is considering Reborn is published by Image, which is independent-ish.

I'll leave you to figure out why Millar and Capullo did not do Reborn on Patreon, despite what you believe.
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>>94509338
That's completely fair. I'd still argue that the comics scene outside of DC and Marvel is growing and developing in ways they aren't adequately preparing for. But yeah, the status of where the "best" creators go is subjective.

>>94509523
This, however, is idiotic. Greg Capullo failed to branch out, so the best artists don't and can't thrive outside of DC and Marvel? Fucking please.
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>>94509523
And for reference, here's the sales on Reborn:

10/2016: Reborn #1 -- 74,967
11/2016: Reborn #2 -- 41,484 (- 44.7%)
12/2016: Reborn #3 -- 36,718 (- 11.5%)
01/2017: Reborn #4 -- 31,102 (- 15.3%)
03/2017: Reborn #5 -- 30,721 (- 1.2%)

Something else to keep in mind: These numbers are not far off from where the Marvel Now 2.0 X-Men titles were at late last year. And remember that only in rare occasions that Image books in the 10's outperform a lot of Marvel and DC stuff.
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>>94509696
Once again, name one. Capullo, failed. Hitch, failed. Nobody else has even tried. Liefeld, Silvestri, Portaccio, Lee came back. I'm sorry that you want Marvel and DC to fail so bad that you dream up downfall scenarios, but this particular one is not happening.

Artist don't matter, and they have not mattered for over 20 years. Marvel and DC made damn sure that Image was a one-off thing.
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>>94509029
Marvel doesn't employ editors anymore

>The series was freelance-edited by Louise Simonson, and without a firm schedule, which provided Adams the time he needed to complete it. This was due in part to his problems with perspective and other things he was not accustomed to drawing, such as windmills, babies and people smiling, and in part because he had to redraw the first half of it, as Ann Nocenti's story was so dense that the pages featured up to 20 panels.[1][2][3][7] As a result, Adams took eight months to draw the first issue.[1][3][9] This problem was addressed by editor Elliot Brown, who showed Adams how to compose panels depicting multiple actions.[3] Simonson would later introduce Adams to Marvel editor-in-chief Jim Shooter, who furthered Adams' understanding of storytelling clarity by sitting down with him and showing him the panel-to-panel structure in an old Marvel book. He would take two years to draw all six issues of the miniseries. Longshot #1 was published with a cover date of September 1985
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>>94509808
Meanwhile, Snyder and Capullo's Batman sells over 100,000. Not really helping your point here. Capullo leaves and sells between 70% and 30% of what he does on DC.
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>>94506549
>in-your-face
>fun

fuck off

don't you have faggoty pranks to put up on YouTube or something
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>>94509817
>name one
I already named more than one in the thread, you numbskull. Tocchini's one of the better examples already given; he did fucking fantastic work over at DC and Marvel and branched away from them successfully. Last thing I think he did for either of them was a little thing in DK3.

But, of course, you'll say "But *I* never heard of him!" as if that somehow invalidates the fact that some of the best artists to work at DC and Marvel have moved away from them because the market has shifted in ways that allow for this.

>I'm sorry that you want Marvel and DC to fail
I'm sorry you're so hung up on company war bullshit that you see any acknowledgement that they're doing things that will lead to them losing some of their foothold --not even dying or losing their slots as publisher #1 and 2-- in the long term as "REEEE DIE DC DIE MARBEL."

>Artist's don't matter.
They're not superstars anymore, but they aren't reliant on DC or Marvel either. I'm not arguing anything else here.
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>>94509929
My point here is that you and the guy you're arguing with in >>94509696 don't really think through all the stuff you're arguing about. 20,000-30,000 on an Image book isn't a "failure" on account the system between an Image book and a Marvel/DC book are different. Marvel/DC book, the money from that 100,000-selling book is divided among a lot of people. With the Image book, Image just takes a fee and the cost of printing the book. The rest of the money goes directly to the creators who divide it as they set up. Also don't forget Walking Dead and Invincible started out with 10,000 in sales or thereabouts.
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>>94510268
Name one artist who left one of the big two and succeeded, you moron. And stop it with those artists on patreon. Nobody cares, outside of your fedora crowd.

I'm sorry you cannot understand how the real world works. I personally blame your parents for telling you you were a special snowflake and now you have to pretend to like idiotic things to seem special.
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>>94510352
>>94509929
Also you point to Snyder and Capullo's Batman outperforming Millar's and Capullo's Reborn but don't mention that Snyder's stuff at Vertigo did lower numbers compared to Reborn:

05/2013: The Wake #1 of 10 -- 44,867
06/2013: The Wake #2 of 10 -- 32,562 (-27.4%)
07/2013: The Wake #3 of 10 -- 30,622 (- 6.0%)
09/2013: The Wake #4 of 10 -- 31,674 (+ 3.4%)
11/2013: The Wake #5 of 10 -- 30,463 (- 3.8%)
02/2014: The Wake #6 of 10 -- 26,843 (-11.9%)
03/2014: The Wake #7 of 10 -- 26,500 (- 1.3%)
05/2014: The Wake #8 of 10 -- 26,694 (+ 0.7%)
06/2014: The Wake #9 of 10 -- 26,561 (- 0.5%)
07/2014: The Wake #10 of 10 -- 25,574 (- 3.7%)

And before you think it's just Millar's name selling Reborn, here's the sales on Huck:

11/2015: Huck #1 -- 35,299 [37,775]
12/2015: Huck #2 -- 22,937 (- 39.3%)
01/2016: Huck #3 -- 20,986 (- 8.5%)
02/2016: Huck #4 -- 20,183 (- 3.8%)
03/2016: Huck #5 -- 19,917 (- 1.3%)
04/2016: Huck #6 -- 19,551 (- 1.8%)

And Empress (over at Marvel's Icon line):


04/16 Empress #1 - 55,829
05/16 Empress #2 - 38,758 (-30.6%)
06/16 Empress #3 - 37,529 (- 3.2%)
07/16 Empress #4 - 18,320 (-51.2%)
08/16 Empress #5 - 16,954 (- 7.5%)
09/16 Empress #6 - 15,624 (- 7.8%)
11/16 Empress #7 - 14,882 (- 4.7%)

And what Kieron Gillen says about indie sales:

http://kierongillen.tumblr.com/post/121756273497/market-maven-is-the-wicked-the-divine-in

>Anything selling stably over 10k in single issues is a cause for celebration and joy. The creators are almost certainly extremely happy.

>If you’re selling over (ooh) 12k, you’re probably making more than either of the big two would pay you, unless you’re one of the very biggest names.

>If you’re selling anything near 20k, you probably have to buy drinks for your friends.

Again, 100,000 for a Marvel and DC book is different from getting 10,000 on an indie book. The flaw people make is thinking 10,000 on an indie (or even Vertigo) book is like a Marvel or DC book getting 10,000.
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>>94506437
Yes, exactly.

Complaining about '90s art is bugman-tier and has been for nearly a decade.

Yeah Liefeld is flawed, yeah Deodato WW is over the top, but there's a frenetic creativity there that's so much fun, especially to the hundreds of thousands of new readers that were brought into the hobby during those years.

I remember looking at a "Rob Liefeld draws bad art" example webpage back in 2007 and I found it pretty funny. A couple years later I was rolling my eyes when comics podcasters would complain about "all those pouches" in between singing the praises of Marvel event books and Greg Rucka snoozefests.

That stuff has a place in history and I would unashamedly display Liefeld New Mutants art or production pages on my wall. It's fun stuff.
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>>94510382
>one artist who left one of the big two and succeeded
Mike Mignola?
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>>94510352
The point was that artists don't matter anymore, not that independent comics cannot succeed. When the Image guys left, they were putting up outrageous numbers at Marvel, and they put outrageous numbers on their own. Clearly, they had a huge following.

Nowadays, a top artist at DC goes to Image, and he sells 70% less. And that is considering he is paired up with a popular writer. My original point was that Marvel and DC do not promote artists the way the used to, simply to avoid another Image from happening. Walking Dead and Invincible became a success based on the writer, and it took some time. WildCATS, Youngblood and Spawn were hits right of the bat, and not because of their incredible stories. In order to replicate that success, you need to be huge at Marvel or DC first. If Marvel and DC don't allow that, you are screwed. So far, no one has been able to provide an example of an artist making it big as an independent creator. It just doesn't work that way, and Marvel and DC like it that way.
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>>94510516
Agreed.

>Again, 100,000 for a Marvel and DC book is different from getting 10,000 on an indie book. The flaw people make is thinking 10,000 on an indie (or even Vertigo) book is like a Marvel or DC book getting 10,000.

The Image boys were able to do it. It is impossible now. Marvel and DC like it that way. That was the whole point. What is so hard to understand?

And the fact that writers cannot do it either is irrelevant here. We are talking about artists.
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>>94507330
This is so true. Comic books are a visual storytelling medium. The artist and the writer should be treated as equally important.
>>
at least Liefefld isn't a tracer like half of the popular artists today
he has more artistic integrity than Ross
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>>94510382
>Name one artist who left one of the big two and succeeded, you moron.
Tocchini.
He drew a shitload for Marvel and DC.
He now works with Remender on Low, which is on its fourth volume.

How many more times do I need to repeat that for you? His skill was such a selling point that Roy Thomas ADAPTED THE ODYSSEY with him. I'm not sure what you're looking for here. Greg's not just some dude living on a Patreon.
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>>94510583
>The point was that artists don't matter anymore
How the fuck have you been arguing this for so many posts without realizing that nobody disagrees with this?
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>>94509929
But makes double or triple the money
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>>94508724
Oh come on, it's definitely the most egregious thing about Land, rather than use athletes he uses fucking pornstars? It's absolutely absurd
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>>94510915
If he wasn't on Batman you'd be correct.
Unfortunately he draws Batman, so he gets that top dollar.
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>>94510941
>egregious
That word doesn't mean what you think it does.
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>>94510974
Eh, he never had an exclusive did he? Also he probably got a chunk of the Millarworld Netflix payout that pushed him well over what he's made doing Bats
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>>94510759
I actually like Tocchini. A lot. But to say that Low is a success--at least in independent terms--based solely on the art is not true. WildCATS, Youngblood and Spawn were repetitive shit and they outsold pretty much anything out there.
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>>94510997
>outstandingly bad, shocking
If tracing fucking porn and putting it into big 2 cape comics isn't outstandingly bad or shocking to you, I do not know what to tell you.
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>>94510839
Not everybody does.
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>>94511009
Not likely. His Millarworld payout is probably really small and he probably has a pretty juicy sales-based deal at DC. Being exclusive these days only really matters if he tries to go to Marvel. Especially since he is not writing Batman. Any ideas he keeps for himself are probably garbage.
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>>94508918
I turned 30 this past July. I'm married and have a career. Turns out the world is full of possibilities....
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>>94510479
I agree. I just read X-Force for the first time in ages. I'd be the first person to shit all over Image era Rob, but his Marvel work is enjoyable- and far, far better than some of what Marvel was publishing at the same time. (Take a look at some of the annuals, or the crossovers for Infinity Gauntlet if you don't believe me. Thor annual 16 is especially painful, as is X-Men annual 15, which alternates between awful and jarring style shifts as a result of full on swipe.)

I also have just reread Larsen's Spider-Man and that shit is just straight up good.
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>>94510583
>The point was that artists don't matter anymore, not that independent comics cannot succeed.

The problem is you said in >>94509817
>Capullo, failed.

If we're going by the sales on Reborn, that's not a failure. If we're going by the idea that an artist failed to sell 90's Image levels, then that's true, but no one makes that their main goal. And if artists don't matter anymore, then comparing the sales on Reborn with Huck and Empress--all by the same writer--kind of disproves it as a generalization.
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>>94510997
You should always, always consult a dictionary before posting this, anon. Otherwise you'll end up shitting on people for using adaption/adaptation interchangeably.
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>>94510743
>Ross
>tracer

I think you're confusing him with Land again.
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>>94508918
4chan isn't a secret club any more. It's mainstream. There are all kinds of users posting here, including respectable people like cable news reporters and federal law enforcement officers who are all well into their 50s.
>>
>>94511337
If the premise is that artists these days have the same pull they did back in the Image days, then clearly the answer is no. I don't think anyone can argue that. And my reasoning is that Marvel and DC killed the superstar artist. I gave Capullo and Hitch as two examples of top artists that left DC and Marvel to do their own book. Neither managed to get sell anywhere near close to what they did at the big two. That was the bar. And I know that sounds unfair, but Image did it back in the day. I definitely put Capullo and Hitch at the level of the original Image artists, but their popularity is not such that they can replicate what it was done in 91.

In general terms Reborn is not a failure, and probably neither is America's Got Powers. Real Heroes I would call a failure. But the fact is that neither Hitch nor Capullo even hinted at staying independent. An artist, on his own, cannot hope to do that and pretend to have the same level of success as in Marvel or DC. And Marvel and DC like it that way.
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>>94510743
Can't tell if bait, but Ross isn't a tracer. He uses models and can pretty much perfectly reproduce them because he's just that skilled, but he isn't a tracer.

How the fuck could he even trace anyway? He paints on a goddamn easel. He'd have to use the Vermeer mirror thing or something.
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>>94510743
Ahem
>>
>>94511837
Swipe is different from tracing. Neither one is inherently wrong, according Wally Wood, anyway.
Loomis cautions against tracing- but for practical reasons- because traced work is often lifeless. This is a problem Land has imo, and Liefield does not. Lifeless work is a big artcrime than straight up theft.
There really isn't any cheating in art, there is just good product and bad.
>>
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>>94511837
>he still somehow fucked it up and bent the gun barrel
>>
>>94512024
That's because he likely copied it- as opposed to straight up tracing.
>>
>>94512001
>t-that doesn't count!
>>
>>94512113
Do you feel better?
>>
>>94506362
you're 29 fucking years old.
>>
>>94512001
Swiping is art theft. Plain and simple.And Wally Wood was a drunk asshole.
>>
>>94508930
>>94511164
>>94511554
You guys are part of the problem desu.
4chan is a young person site and the only purpose you old timers serve is to complain how this board sucks because it's not on 2007 standards anymore.

How bout you fuck off to Reddit with the rest of the Dads pretending to be 20-somethings?
>>
>>94512024
Because he didn't trace it?
>>
>>94512309
>Swiping is art theft. Plain and simple.

I'm sorry you cannot understand how the real world works.
>>
>>94512333
>being newfag cancer is okay because oldfags are reddit
What the actual fuck?
>>
>>94512365
I'm sorry you cannot understand that any artist that swipes is dishonest. Do you know what the Marvel and DC policy is about swiping, you moron?
>>
>>94512413
I'm sorry that in your feigned attempt at moral superiority you still cannot understand how the real world works.
>>
>>94512441
It doesn't get more real than the two biggest companies telling their artists not to do it. Any editor that catches a swipe is going to ask for the artist to change it. Now go be stupid somewhere else.
>>
>>94512503
>Any editor that catches a swipe is going to ask for the artist to change it.

AH HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HAAAAAA HA HA
>>
>>94511129
>really small
I dunno he's the cocreator of one of like 8 titles netflix bought, for a company valued at 2 million pounds (2.6 million dollars). It's not unreasonable to think Netflix paid more than that valuation for Millarworld (easier to overpay when you're buying lock stock and barrel especially with an IP farm that can easily go up in value any day with an IP being optioned/bought), which to me means it's not unreasonable to think that he made 100k or more in the sale.
Also the biggest thing about an exclusive is that you get a salary and healthcare on top of a great sales deal, which means you make more money on those sales in comparison to being a freelancer.
>>
>>94512503
>Any editor that catches a swipe is going to ask for the artist to change it
Kek, that would imply they would even recognize one.
>>
>>94506362
You can like something even if you acknowledge it's not very good, it's not the end of the world. Rob was never a good artist but his work is very original and was based on a unique vision, a pouchy bloody paradise. There are more polished and professional works out there by more talented artists, that just aren't entertaining to read because they're boring knockoffs of something and have no original ideas. There is at least something about Rob's work, particularly his sense of design, that stands out creatively so it makes sense that he has fans and followers and it is fine to appreciate that while acknowledging his flaws.
>>
>>94506437
This.

The guy helped pioneer art that was more detailed but still fast to create.

I think Liefeld art might have even been OK if he knew how to use a fucking eraser. See mid-00's Lee art that strikes a good balance between crosshatching and crazy poses with actually believable anatomy.

I hate comparing fucking Liefeld to Kirby, but Kirby wasn't exactly excellent with anatomy either, but his art was so great because of its poses and dynamism.

I'm not saying Liefeld is good, in fact, he's definitely shitty. Just it's not the worst thing ever created like people meme. Doesn't touch hideous garbage like Land and Horn.

>>94508748
If anything ones shitting on Liefeld are the ones parroting what they read in some Cracked article.
>>
Liefeld is one of the most influential and successful artists ever, anyone who says otherwise is a jealous little bitch
>>
>>94511028
>based solely on the art
When the fuck did this become a stipulation?
How many additional qualifications do we need to add here?

The statement put forth was "name one artist who left the big two and succeeded," not "Name an artist who left both publishers, never worked with them again, made at least ten million dollars, lives in California, was born in September, is a Republican, shaves every day, hates bugs, etc."

Greg's an example of what was asked. No amount of backpedaling is going to change that.
>>
>>94513415

I know you want your friend "Greg" to be a success story as big as the Image guys, but he never was considered a top talent at Marvel or DC, and he is not a top talent now.

On another note, medical science has come a long way. Talk to your psychiatrist. He might be able to help you. Perhaps even remove your fedora.
>>
I grew up with Geoff Senior whose art is both comfy and shits on 90% of modern comic book artists.
>>
>>94513621
All I'm hearing is "LALALALA I CAN'T HEAR YOU IT DOESN'T COUNT I DIDN'T HEAR ABOUT IT LALALALA."

You asked for an artist who left and succeeded. I gave you one. I specifically picked him because he had quite a number of Marvel and DC projects, has strong pencils, and his comic is on Image's front fucking page right now.

Go ahead though. Tell me why he doesn't count. Do you want to create more nonsensical stipulations that have nothing to do with what you initially said, or are you going to keep trying to steer the argument into something it's not?
>>
>>94513621
Succeeding doesn't mean being one of the biggest artists in comics. Succeeding literally means 'not failing'. If Tocchini wasn't a success he wouldn't still be working today. If that isn't what you meant you should have chosen a different word.
>>
Sometimes I forget how powerful nostalgia is when looking at things you grew up around until I come into threads like this.

If your opinion is shared by a person with a blog you have a
>meme opinion.
>>
>>94513895
Dude, let it go. I told you before. I like "Greg". I think he is a great artist. But he was never a top artist at Marvel, and he is not a top artist now. All that his case proves is that a good artist can work outside of the big two, which was never disputed. And even then, Low has a good writer. So, no, he is not someone that can make a series based on his art alone. I understand that you want to be alternative and all that, but Tocchini is nowhere near important enough to ever count as a start artist that fled Marvel, regardless of how much you like him.

The fact remains that the few top artists that go off the reservation always come back. Quickly, too.
>>
>>94507764
>except for Todd, who is more of a businessman anyway, and Larsen,

Larsen did come back during the late 90's and did some stuff for Marvel and DC while still doing Savage Dragon. But he hasn't done anything for Marvel since that Fantastic Four miniseries 17 years ago.

I can't remember if Valentino ever did anything for Marvel or DC since being at Image, though.
>>
>>94512333

>Implying that /co/ isn't a board populated entirely by wizards and anons training to be wizards.
>>
>>94512955
>If anything ones shitting on Liefeld are the ones parroting what they read in some Cracked article.

Like him or hate him, Liefeld's career peak was over 20 years ago. There are far worse artists currently working for Marvel, but hating them isn't a meme, because no-one's even reading the books anymore.

But it's just really pathetic and sad that we're living through the worst era Marvel has ever known, yet people are still REEEEEEEEEEing about the 1990s.
>>
>>94515285
>Dude, let it go.
>[Changes the argument, again.]

Nobody said the guy had clout. The entire argument was whether any artists left the big two and succeeded.

It's funny you think I care about him considering I didn't know him by name until today. I was just adamant about posting about him because he's the perfect counter-example to the argument. Your entire argument about what constitutes as a "top artist" is nonsense because there ARE no pencil artists with clout behind their names anymore. It's an entirely self-serving sub-category to win an internet argument by shifting the meaning of what's being argued.
>>
>>94515884
And now you need to go back and re-read what I wrote and what you wrote. You say that Marvel and DC are hurting themselves by not caring about artists, which leads to good artists going away. And I told you the top artists, the ones that actually have a semblance of popularity, work almost exclusively for the big two. Greg Tocchini was never one of those popular artists, in the Coipel, Immonen, Capullo range, so no, he does not count here. My contention was that Marvel and DC killed the concept of the star artist by making sure the Coipels and Capullos never reach that status. So no, it is not a self-serving category. It very much existed, and it very much does not any more. Remember when being in the Wizard Top Ten meant something? Yeah, me too. I don't like it any more than you do, but to think that the current penciller situation is somehow not exactly what Marvel and DC want is just being blind to reality. If you want to believe that just because some run-of-the-mill artist managed to make a living outside of the big 2 that means they are losing their grip, go ahead, but you have no leg to stand on.
>>
>>94516313
The entire "Top Tier" thing is just so daft. You yourself recognize that artists actually mattering in their own right is dead, yet you keep trying to push this narrative about how DC and Marvel have all the Top Tier artists...who aren't actually recognized for their work, and how they fail to move outside of those companies. They're defined as "Top Tier" simply by being the kind of people who are going to stick with the company in the first place. It's a nonsense argument that has nothing to do with anything. The original argument had fucking nothing to do with the singular artist's recognition and your attempts to make it about that are inane.

This isn't about people flocking to other publishers because, LOOK, ALBEQUERQUE IS DRAWING THIS BOOK, WOW! It's about how, in trying to kill the act of rising above the need for the company, they indirectly encourage bleedout from the people talented enough to actually make it on their own. By not being competitive enough, writers and artists who would have been content to stick their thumbs up their asses at DC and Marvel are feeling around for other avenues.

This shit isn't just pirate comics or the extreme niche anymore. American comics outside of the Big Two (and the superhero outliers like early Image and Valiant) are in a better place in terms of quality, public awareness and dearth of genres and content. Things are bustling more in the digital space and writers and artists are finding more power to make their own work and live off of it.

I'm not saying DC and Marvel are losing their fucking market share. I'm saying it's a bigger picture than that which goes beyond that stuff. I'm talking long-term perception. What they're doing helps them in the short term, but they're not being competitive enough to stop talented creators from running off to do their own thing. The previous near-monopolistic perception of American comics is eroding.

They don't fucking care, but it's an unintended side-effect.
>>
>>94516989
Comic book art in America is the best its ever been. We might not have superstars, but real stinkers are few and far between. I agree with that.

About the bigger picture, I am not as optimistic. The digital revolution has not happened yet, and it doesn't look like it's happening any time soon. For example, Big Nemo was actually really good, it was Allan Moore and Colleen Doran. Nobody gave a shit. What chances do others have? By now, I thought we would have seen some digital only content making a dent in the market.

The way I see it, Marvel and DC still define pretty much the whole landscape, Robert Kirkman notwithstanding.
>>
>>94517478
Again, I think it's a long-term situation. The reason things are taking longer than you would normally expect is because of just how niche the market ended up getting in the first place.

It's going to take DECADES, and DC and Marvel sure as hell aren't going away or even losing their spots, but the public perception of what a comic is has changed drastically since the 90's. We've gone from a generation of "it's the stuff in the newspapers, and superhero books too" to a generation of "It's superheroes here, BUT IN THESE OTHER COUNTRIES IT'S ALL KINDS OF COOL STUFF!" to a generation of "I read them online all the time, there's all kinds." The issues are awareness, cost and previous attachment.

As far as I'm concerned, the first company that successfully implements a "read for free but watch some ads" model for weekly/monthly comics is going to be the deciding factor in how people consume comics from now on and what they're willing to try. You gotta compete with free in the entertainment sector now.
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