I don't understand how Doctor Doom happened. >Fantastic

>>94099978
At least vary your bait.

>>94099995
At least come up with an argument instead of calling it bait just because the truth annoys you.

>>94099995
He's just a /tv/-fag. He posted that in one of the Doom threads there when the movie was announced, then came and posted it here. I guess this is Round 2.

I will agree that the F4 don't have any really good villains though, Doom aside. They have potential, but they're notutilized to their full effect.Red Ghost, Psycho Man, Zarrko, all of them can be good,but they need an update.

The F4 worked because the comic was imaginative. The villains truly were nothing special or new.

>>94099978
>FF
>worst characters ever
>FF
>bad
>FF
>not fucking amazing in the hands of a competent writer
This is proof you have read virtually no comics. The FF had some of the most innovative and genre-defying stories and art.

Stan and Jack's run was nothing short of revolutionary, and comics today would be drastically different without it, for several reasons.

Not to mention there have been plenty of good stuff since - Byrne, Waid, Hickman, even Claremont, Millar and Robinson.

Dr. Doom works because he's the last of his kind in comics. He's a pulpy 1920s villain with a generic name and an evil lair in a vaugely European country doing super science that makes the actual laws of physics cry in a corner. He isn't updated or give a deep backstory that changes the view of the character. He's Doctor Doom and if he isn't stopped, he's going to use the Agony Ray on some orphanage just to piss Reed Richards off.

Fantastic Four were pretty cool for their time. All the cool characters came from Fantastic Four, Galactus, Silver Surfer, The Watcher, Super Skrulls. They had all the crazy sci-fi big hitters.

F4 is about the adventures of a properly functioning family of loving and caring individuals with clear roles in the household/society. They really have no place in a post-90s world where degeneracy is rampant and attacking family values is a cool thing to do.

Doom is the epitome of one great man attaining and holding on to great power all by himself.

He is the perfect villain for a group of people who work better as a unit than individually.

>>94100029
At least vary your """retorts"""

>>94100588
>"""
Get out.

Look where we are today: Doom is literally Iron Man now

>>94100766
Not if Ree"The person who brought in Doctor Doom"Ree has anything to say about it!

bendis literally took over Iron Man so that he could make his daughterfu the smartest person in the MU, have her replace the biggest MCU hero, and take down Marvel's best villain, who just came out of a massive "end of all" event.

This is a whole another level of shilling.

>>94099978
Early on, Dr. Doom had his own plans apart from destroying the FF. He traveled in time and met Morgan Le Fay, for example ( but I think the FF came later).

Fantastic Four was great with Kirby's imagination. so good that everything great about it was stolen for other titles, not to mention characters that made their first appearance in FF, like Panther and Inhumans.
Anyway, the readers weren't know-it-all as they are today. Negative zone wouldn't impress anybody if created today.

>>94100766
>Doom is literally Iron Man now
Weren't Doom and Iron Man paired together for Doomquest way back in the 80s for the explicit reason that they are very similar characters?

>>94099978
this is bait but

bad guys are easier to come up with than good guys

>>94101138
Oh yes, that's why we have such brilliant villains as Dr. Light and Stilt-Man.

>>94100040
>F4 don't have any really good villains though
Galactus, Kang, Annihilus, Blastaar, Diablo, Wizard, Namor, even fucking Mole Man.

FF introduced more classic villains than any other Marvel property

Looks like the perfect thread to ask this question. I want to read some Fantastic 4 starting from the beginning. How much should I keep reading before stopping?

>>94101679
Sure, but are they actually good? What sets them apart? What great stories do they have? What have they done?

And Kang is an Avengers villain, with Galactus being a force of nature. But sure, if you want, I'll give them to you. Point still stands though. What has Red Ghost ever done? Or Diablo? What saga revolved around them? Utterly nothing.

>>94101719
Save yourself the trouble, they are shit and they never once had a single issue worth reading. People like the meme more than the execution

>>94101893
Go away.

>>94101679
What is good about Namor? He's a boring knockoff of Aquaman.

>>94102084
!(gr8 b8 m8)

>>94101737
>What sets them apart?
Diablo is an alchemist. There are many mad scientist villains but he fills an interesting niche speciziling in a science long forgotten.

Red Ghost is a kooky joke villain. Every hero has their fair share of those.

What FF tackles best is them being explorers of the unknown. They excel in having adventures in different settings.

You have the Negative Zone, Atlantis, Microverse, deep space etc. Inhuman conflicts used to be contained to FF too.

It's not that cut and dry.

>>94102309
Never speak to me in Java code again.

>>94102387
It's the only communication you deserve

>>94102386
Evil scientists ...like every hero

And every comic and scifi verse does the tired old Atlantis, space, magic dimension shit. Ducktales does this better. What makes the FF so amazing at it that it stands out?

>Fantastic Four are the worst Marvel characters ever
Here's where I stopped reading, and I bet a lot of other people did, too.

>>94102624
Don't count on it, kid.

>>94100183
this, they are called marvels first family for a reason

>>94102571
Because science.

Read a comic and find out for yourself. I've answered your questions, now you're just splitting hairs.

>>94102743
So you actually can't explain what makes it worthwhile at all then

>>94100040
>I will agree that the F4 don't have any really good villains though
Confirmed for never reading any Fantastic Four. Annihilus, Blastaar, Galactus and his heralds, Molecule Man, Psycho-Man, Super-Skrull, the Frightful Four, Namor, Ronan, the list goes on. Fantastic Four have one of the best rogues galleries in all of cape comics.

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>>94102084
>What is good about Namor? He's a boring knockoff of Aquaman.

>Namor- First Apearence 1939
>Aquaman- First Apearence 1941

>>94101737
Why not go read Lee/Kirby FF and find out? It's widely considered one of the all-time best cape runs and still holds up, so if you consider yourself a capefan, let alone a Marvel fan then you don't have any excuse for not having read it.

>>94102571
>What makes the FF so amazing?

Because they were a counter to DC's JLA and did a lot of thins the JLA didn't.

Where the only one with a unique personality and voice in the JLA was Snapper Carr everyone in the F4 was their own character and played off each other differently. Ben didn't act the same way around Johnny that he did around Reed that he did around Sue.

Where everyone was happy with their super powers in the JLA Ben hated being the Thing.

Where the JLA had adventures across Earths and in outer space and in magic dimensions they were like fire fighters. A problem would happen and they would respond to it. The F4 were adventurers. They went to the Moon, the Negative Zone, the Secret Sanctuary, etc.

Where the JLA were an organization the F4 were a family. They argued, they had Sue's kids to take care of, they interacted in a way the JLA didn't.

And the F4 set about the groundwork of much of the Marvel Universe's mythos. Wakanda. Galatus. The Watcher. The Negative Zone. Atlantis.

The F4 was the rock on which the Marvel Universe was built and it being buried because Marvel can't get the movie rights is one of the saddest things they've ever done as a company.

>>94103071
>F4

casual spotted

>>94100250
>He isn't updated or give a deep backstory that changes the view of the character.

He's been consistently changed for decades now. Kirby and Lee's Doom would use an Agony Ray on an orphanage to piss Richards off, nowadays most writers would be tripping over themselves to show that the orphanage was the real evil, Doom was doing it to save the world, and it was a Doombot anyway.

Hell, Time Runs Out/Secret Wars is pretty much built on the foundation that Doom was wrong and couldn't save reality, with the best he could do is grabbing a small portion of various universes and kludging them together with Molecule Man doing the heavy lifting. He was constantly shown to be a petty, insecure, and kinda skeezy man whose rule is maintained by keeping everyone opposed to each other rather than actually being effective as a leader. And even then you still have people claiming that Doom singlehandedly saved all reality and was the real hero.

>>94100406
>F4
>Properly functioning family
You wat?

>>94101737
Kang started as an F4 villain in his Rama Tut incarnation. But you are sort of right.

They still have Doom, the Skrulls, Annihilus, Molecule Man, and Mole Man. But the F4's strength was always in its supporting cast, many of which would sometimes fight them as semi-bad guys. Black Panther. Namor. The Inhumans. Silver Surfer, The Watcher, etc.

No other superhero team had a supporting cast so solid.

>>94103124
>Typing F4 makes me a casual

You want me to call them the Fab Four? Marvel's First Family? What' the shiboleth that gets me into the inner circle?

>>94103124
Anon, if you spent at least half as much time reading comics as you do shitposting, you might actually be able to contribute something worthwhile to this board.

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>>94101719
Read all of the Lee/Kirby run. It has a bit of a rough start, but once it gets going, it's some of the best and most imaginative stuff anywhere in Marvel. After that, skip to Byrne's run. That's not to say the stuff between Lee/Kirby and Byrne is bad, but it treads water a bit as losing Kirby takes the wind out of the sails whereas Byrne's run really reinvigorated the franchise.

After that, I'd skip to Waid's run from the early-00s. Despite writing a really shitty Dr. Doom, the rest of his run is pretty good. After Waid's run, read Hickman's from the late-00s following pic related as the reading order.

There's plenty of other good stuff here and there, but Lee/Kirby -> Byrne -> Waid -> Hickman is generally pretty solid and since all 4 runs are fairly sizable, it'll keep you busy for a while.

>>94103217
no one who's actually read a fuck-ton of Fantastic Four would ever abbreviate it as F4 I know because I was in the same position as you years ago, talking out of my ass, til someone called me on it, after which I went and read all of Kirby's run and realized my mistake

>>94100406
Confirmed for never actually reading any F4. If you don't actually have any interest in reading comics and just want to pretend you do as an excuse to shitpost your /pol/ memes, then stick to the /tv/ franchises like the X-men, Avengers and Justice League.

>>94100040
Holy shit. Look at this newfag. F4 have the best villians of all of marvel.

>>94103365
You're trying too hard.

>>94103277
Thanks for the rec. I've never read the Byrne and Waid runs.

I also found 1234 pretty enjoyable and Unstable Molecules is an interesting comic based on the real life counterparts used as inspiration for the team.

I think you meant to type "Doctor Octopus"
Before the accusations of "lol fuck off Slott" start flowing I really hate Slott for the damage he's done to the character, but the Master Planner arc is better than anything Doom has ever done and Otto was a solid if not great villain pretty much every time he appeared

>>94103365
Meant to post >>94103311

>>94100250
Read Triumph and Torment

>>94100843
No. His intro was FF 5 or 6 and he had the backstory of him and reed going to school together

>>94099978
>most characters have super-strength or some kind of suit
>somehow stretching, invisibility/force fields, fire and a big rock guy are boring

>>94103531
Octopus has never done anything as good as Doom. You're just stupid and have shit taste.

>>94103719
>Doom
>good
Lol. He's not even the best FF villain.

>>94099978

Is he even really a Doctor?

>>94103426
>>94103217
>>94103040
>>94102877
>>94102386
To all the "lol, newfag, lel" anons, please, you're just embarassing yourselves. See, this is the problem with 4chan. You see one point you don't agree with, and disregard everything else.

I never said the F4 didn't have good villains, or that the comics themselves were bad. I simply said that the focus of the tittle was on the main team & zany adventures. Its purpose was world-building, which it did spectacularly. But that means that the villains took a backseat to all of that.

I'm not saying they're not good or underatted villains, far from it. But they need some reinventions if they are to be truly great. Brubaker did some neat things with Red Ghost for example. Diablo was a bit cliche but still enjoyable in that Thor/Iron Man mini.

All I'm saying is that you need to do some fresh stuff with them in order to more 3-Dimensional characters.

>>94103134
>And even then you still have people claiming that Doom singlehandedly saved all reality and was the real hero.
But he litterally did. The heros were so stuck in their political wars that they couldn't agree on what to do. Doom just made a plan and did it. Everyone else was just trying to fix mistakes

>>94103311
Fuck off. FF is Future Foundation now. F4 is fantastic four.

>>94103800
>Hickman had the multiverse job so his Doomfu could save reality

I will never forgive him for this.

>>94103877
Is it just me or were the white Ipod body condom suits the worst things the F4 have ever worn, I mean even worse than the orange suits.

>>94103970
Both your replies show that you have shit taste. I think you may be cancer

>>94103277
You forgot Engleheart and Simonson's runs. Which are both quite good, and quite interesting.
Other than that, and the fact that I would also recommend Claremont's post-Heroes Reborn run, a solid recommendation.

>>94103796
>says F4 never had good villains
>people point out all of their good villains
>b-but those don't count!
>proceeds to be btfo
>y-you're just embarrassing yourselves! And I never said "they don't have good villains!"
I honestly see what you mean but Jesus dude, learn to debate m8.

>>94103277
Byrne ruined the franchise and brought lots of cancer like "muh invincible husbando can't lose, it's doombots ;_;"
>Waid
Ah, okay, I can stop taking you seriously now.

the problem with the FF is that they haven't been allowed to truly grow or change for decades, they've been stuck in the same status quo since 1989

so I haven't really had a problem with them being scuttled lately, their sendoff in secret wars is about the best a Marvel character can hope for these days

>>94104370
Fuck off or just read Hickmans run

>>94104545
I did, hence

>their sendoff in secret wars is about the best a Marvel character can hope for these days

>>94103277
>Despite writing a really shitty Dr. Doom
I really disagree. Doom behaved like an actual narcissistic petty asshole for once. I'd take that over Doomwank any day.

>>94103694
Man, this is what really gets me. People are constantly complaining about how the F4 have "boring" powers whereas, say, the Avengers have awesome powers. Yet compare the two:
>super-strength
>tech suit (which grants super-strength + flight + lasers)
>secret agent
>secret agent + bow/arrow
>super-strength
>super-strength + flight + lightning

Compare that to:
>super-strength + rock body
>flight + fire powers
>invisibility + force-fields
>stretching

Like, the F4 have significantly more visually interesting powers and more variety between the four than the Avengers do. How are the F4's powers generic and boring, when not only are all four powersets that no one in the MCU have, but almost all the MCU characters are just some variation of punches hard, nimble, and shoots projectiles.

>>94099978
>F4 worst
Wasn't F4 a parody of 60s sitcom with superpowers?
And also made Marvel Comics and Marvel Superheroes relevant and popular?

>>94104195
>Englehart
Ehhhh, I agree that Simonson's is good, but while I like Englehart, his FF wasn't all that great. Seemed like a little too much of it was just damage control and retconning of other stories. Also, the Thing/She-Thing/Human Torch/Crystal roster was fucking garbage. Two Things and two fire users was redundant as hell.

>>94104370
>they haven't been allowed to truly grow or change for decades, they've been stuck in the same status quo since 1989
Dude... what? The Future Foundation was a major shake-up in their status quo. Turning them into teachers for the next generation gave them a great, new direction to take the franchise that shook up their status quo without losing what made them the Fantastic Four. They'd still be going strong with that were it not the fact that Marvel decided to carpet bomb the franchise.

>>94104885
This. /tv/ fags are shitting up the board

>>94104974
I mean, I can see where that anon is coming from. Most of the attempts at shaking up the status quo during the late 80s and throughout the 90s were shit, and the best runs of the 00s, excluding Hickman's, were largely "back to basics" approaches. But to say that they weren't allowed to grow is false. Valeria's birth shook things up. The Future Foundation shook things up. And while 90s FF was mostly a mixed bag of shit, a lot of that was because they kept trying to reinvent the FF to fit into the extreme era and it just didn't work.

Yeah, they weren't getting the shake-ups that the X-men or Avengers were getting, but were those shake-ups actually for the better? Their status quos were constantly changing, but that was for the worse more often than not. And how many "next generations of X-men" have there been that just end up getting killed off or relegated to wallpaper? Was Disassembled and New Avengers actually a good thing for the franchise by devaluing the Avengers into the poor man's Justice League? Hell, Franklin being allowed to exist and Valeria being born is a notable shake-up over Spider-man whose baby was stolen from him then never mentioned again, then had his marriage wiped away.

Not every franchise can be Daredevil, but the F4 maintained consistency that other major Marvel franchises lacked because of their constant shake-ups and soft-reboots. The worst you could say about the F4 is that Johnny kept redoing the same "time to mature and get serious" arc.

>>94103719
>Otto decides to swap minds with Spiderman
>Doom decides to swap minds with Daredevil (while forgetting that Daredevil was blind)

>>94103217
>Molecule Man
Fuck! I really want this in the MCU, and Tigra?

You know what?

>>94105217
>Not every franchise can be Daredevil
What do you mean? Since when is Daredevil the number one example of innovation?

>>94100040
Did everyone just forget that the fantastic four is the reason why cosmic marvel is so rich with mythology?

>>94099978
Doomfags are always embarrassing themselves.

They are the only beings that think that "master of everything possible and impossible and never loses because it was actually a Doombot" makes a complex character.

>>94107886
There's far more to Doom than that, so congratulations on outing yourself as a homosexual.

>>94108116
>There's far more to Doom than that
You know there's not.

>so congratulations on outing yourself as a homosexual.
???