Can we address the elephant in the room? Comic books and by relation,

The truth is that most kids love darkness and violence. God knows I did. The "kiddie tone" of the Marvel movies is actually catering to millennials in their 20s and 30s.

>>93879483
>>93879354

The actual truth is that kids are not a monolithic group, some mature faster than others, some have different tastes, some kids like Marvel and others like DC, and so on. To say that something is "not for kids" or that "all kids must love this" just seems silly.

>>93879354
i always thought MCU was more for general audiences, adults take their kids to watch it

and i really love those movies, since i can freely watch them with my nephew and laugh and enjoy it together

and really kids love to have fun, so movies for kids generally need tighter pacing, and when kids have fun so do i

>Goofy costumes and bad jokes do not a good movie make.
maybe, but in the MCU i find it really charming, i find that the comedy is really spot on, when cap says a joke it feels inspiring instead of misplaced, and their universe just feels like the palce where goofy costumes are entirely natural things to wear

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>>93879354
I knew that I would get some use out of this one.

The Marvel movies are fun, but that's all they are and all they want to be. They don't stand up to repeat viewings and most have an assembly line feel to them. I'd rather watch a movie that tries to do something more at the risk of falling on its face than a safe carnival ride.

>>93879649
>i always thought MCU was more for general audiences, adults take their kids to watch it
So was the DCU. Don't kid yourself.
The amount of money of BvS that was put into the movie and marketing was meant so as many people as possible are going to watch it.

I was born in 1996 and some of the first things I can remember reading were Whatever Happened to the Man of Tomorrow, The Claremont/Cockrum/Byrne X-men run, Bendis's Ultimate Spider-man, etc.

>>93879354
>A being like superman wouldn't be happy-go-lucky all the time in the real world
Man, fuck off.

>>93879354
> Children need to be pandered to with dumbed down fluff, otherwise they might not grow up to be people I approve of!

Hail Hydra to you too, Steve.

>>93879933
This

It's the same mentality that redditors have when talking about fine dining. They would rather eat a burger than something they don't understand on the worry that they might not like it.

I'd rather occasionally eat something disgusting than eat burgers every day.

>>93879354
Good post OP you got serious answers

>>93879974
Greeaat argument, normie.

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>/tv/ is going to rip apart this scene if they adapt it 1:1 for Cap's quip

>>93879354
>Can we address the elephant in the room?
You have my complete attention.

>>93879933

.I'd rather watch a movie that tries to do something more at the risk of falling on its face than a safe carnival ride.

I can see this point, but I can't understand the love for BvS. There has to be a practical point where a movie so utterly fails at its ambitions that even the hardcore auteur cultists stop trying to argue that its somehow good despite its failures.

Like, even the prequel defenders I can sort of get, if only because of how mad some people got at TFA. But Zack Snyder, Genius of Hollywood? I can't buy it.

>>93880129
Yeah. It's not even that I dislike Marvel or the new Star Wars movies; it's that feeling of knowing before you go in that it'll be "good enough" that's just deadening somehow.

>>93880236
Yep, there is no excitement. It's just "I expect a decent movie and I get a decent movie." I don't even get enough of a feeling to argue with my friends that it was a bad movie. Everyone just unanimously agrees it was fun.

At the very least a bad movie generates discussion.

>>93880225
I really liked BvS. To me, visuals are what make or break a movie. It's a visual art form. That said, I didn't feel like there were any problems in the writing or performances. If Zack Snyder has a weakness it's that he doesn't always get a great performance out of his actors. Like, I just rewatched Watchmen and while parts of it are transcendent, hoo boy is there some bad acting in that.

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>>93879354
>>So why do the MCU films get away here with being so childish while the DCEU gets shit on for approaching more mature topics?
Because pic related is the one handling "mature topics". There is nothing deep about any DCEU movie. They have the depth of a student film.

These movies are executed poorly by hacks. You know it. We all know it.

You just wanted a company wars thread, so here's your (You).

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This is a picture from Stan Lee’s "How to Draw Comics the Marvel Way". Look at it and ask yourself how would the equivalent "How To Makes Movies the Marvel Way" could look like.

Then ask yourself where the current Kevin Feige-produced MCU titles would be, on the left or on the right? Do they offer visual dynamism, creative and exciting use of the medium's possibilities in order to heighten the experience? Personally, when I look at this picture, I can see exciting formalists and pop artists like Orson Welles, Seijun Suzuki or Sergio Leone belonging on the right, or even to stay strictly in the field of current blockbuster filmmakers, people like George Miller, the Wachowski Sisters or Brad Bird but certainly not Peyton Reed or Josh Whedon or Gunn, with their flat, uninspired televisual (lack of) style.

>>93880236

> It's not even that I dislike Marvel or the new Star Wars movies; it's that feeling of knowing before you go in that it'll be "good enough" that's just deadening somehow.

TFA certainly ignited strong passions in people one way or the other after its release.

The "DisneyWars is just as bland s the MCU!" is the worst self-fulfilling argument I'v seen on the Internet. People shrieked that it'd be just like the MCU films for so long that there would be no practical way the actual movie would change their minds regardless of the quality.

>>93880288

>I really liked BvS. To me, visuals are what make or break a movie. It's a visual art form

BvS cribs so much from other, better works that I can't agree about the quality of the visuals. And I hate the way he films conversations, he always slams the camera right up in the actors' faces for no discernible reason.

If a movie is going to live or die by its visuals, ti needs to give me something actually interesting to watch like A Cure For Wellness. BvS was dull, stately cinematography that wasted Fong's talents. That dipshit Kong movie used his talented better.

>>93880355
Gunn's movie (haven't seen Guardians 2 yet) being so visually flat (it took me some time to admit it, but it is) is really disappointing because the guy made Super, one of my favorite movies ever. Admittedly that's on the writing and that's really Gunn's forte.

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Do you remember the music of the last Marvel movie you watched?

No you didn't. Because their goal isn't to make it memorable. It's to make it bland and forgettable and as inoffensive as possible. These people aren't artists. They're businessmen. And businessmen only see numbers. The music actually reflects the entirety of MCU films. Because the music is just one example of just how forgettable and boring these Marvel movies are.

They are focus-tested. They are reshot. They are studied and tweaked over and over and over again so that it has exactly filled all the boxes of its checklist. The director doesn't direct. He does what he's told from his corporate bosses that see him as a tool, a puppet, more than an artist. This isn't film. This is just mindless trash for the brain to passively consume for an hour and half.

>>93880193
But this doesn't really read like a quip, just banter. They aren't stopping the action or flow of the scene like the MCU loves to do with their jokes. It's just a casual exchange as the tension continues to build.

>>93880424
Even the great Elfman is wasted on the MCU. The man who fucking invented so many classic superhero themes, making absolutely nothing of worth for the MCU. Surely, it must a challenge to compose a decent score for something as soulless and empty as the MCU.

>>93880424
I can remember all the ones from the Netflix shows if that counts.

>>93880424

>Do you remember the music of the last Marvel movie you watched?

Actually yeah, because the last one I watched was Strange and that had a pretty decent score.

>>93880388
1. The people who were really angry about Star Wars 7 weren't really talking about it as a movie from what I saw.
2. Good artists borrow...
But yeah, BvS has great composition, surprisingly clear storytelling and visual motifs (water, winged demons, light) that gives it a real tone.

I'm glad you liked A Cure For Wellness though, that movie was also gorgeous.

>>93880424
I constantly have Vulture's booming theme playing in my head since seeing it in the theatre.

>>93880469
Honestly can't remember a single thing about that forgettable ass "film" (TV show episode is more appropriate description) except the lame ass music quips about Beyonce and Bono.

Leave it to Disney to completely waste a film about exploring the wonders of magic.

>>93880424
>I watched the Every Frame A Painting video and now im an expert

>>93880424
>Do you remember the music of the last Marvel movie you watched?
Yeah, I watched that video too.

No one in this thread has yet to address OP's only point

Why do Marvel's movies appeal to all ages and DCEU's movies don't and why does /co/ accept this?

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>>93880508
It doesn't take an expert to call out Disney's huge oversights in basic filmmaking, from lightning to angles to costumes to music to action choreography.

I can't for the life of me comprehend how a comic book audience is ok with seeing their visual material reduced to TV show-calibre garbage that doesn't even have proper color correction.

>>93880488

>2. Good artists borrow...

I have no issue with pastiche artists if they take those elements and do something interesting with them, like Tarantino or De Palma.

But Snyder finds the least interesting way to explore his influences. All I got out of BvS was a desire to rewatch Excalibur. He feels like every asshole who tried to copy Fincher's visual aesthetic after Se7en but with nerd-bait cult properties instead.

>I'm glad you liked A Cure For Wellness though, that movie was also gorgeous.

Word. That's something I would classify as artistically interesting despite its flaws, because that movie was so gorgeous I didn't mind that the psychological themes were thin and it semed to have nine endings.

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>>93879354
>why do the MCU films get away here with being so childish while the DCEU gets shit on for approaching more mature topics? A being like superman wouldn't be happy-go-lucky all the time in the real world
Aah I see it's one of those threads.
And here I thought we'd talk about something different for a change.

Allright everyone, you can pack up your things and leave, it's just another "MUH KINO IS TOO DEEP FOR MARVELFAGS" thread, you've seen dozens or hundreds of those by now.

You can have a balance of mature and for all ages stories. It's good for the medium as a whole.

>>93880424
I don't remember any DCEU music except for the WW theme either. It's all indistinguishible BOOM BOOM BOOM with soft piano mixed here and there. Pure lazy Zimmershit.

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>>93880584
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QnVl_TXhoZs

Just look at this scene. Look how Burton effectively combines music, lightning and Batman's lack of words to convey this feeling of dread and mystery.

The MCU simply has nothing to match this calibre of filmmaking. Not a single scene in the whole MCU, 15 films now is worth remembering. Nobody will look back at this universe 20 years from now and study its filmmaking techniques. Well, maybe as a cautionary tale. Truth is that Disney and Feige has reduced a genre that is supposed to be expressionist and bold into something dull, colorless and routine, the exact opposite of what CBM should be.

>>93880657
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bnV7sMK3Dyc

Post something from the MCU that reflects their superheroes as well as the Superman theme does to Superman. I'm not asking to shit on you. I'm asking in geniune wonder because I haven't found any myself.

>>93880665
Is Batman Returns our meme movie now?

>So why do the MCU films get away here with being so childish while the DCEU gets shit on for approaching more mature topics?
They don't. What mature topics did the first 3 DC movies touch on? They are just big dumb action movies with poorly developed characters and bad plots. Wonder Woman touched on some big issues like human nature being violent, but ironically it was the one non-edgy, heroic-for-the-sake-of-heroism DC movie. You seem to confuse edginess with maturity when edginess appeals mainly to rebellious Hot Topic tweens.
>A being like superman wouldn't be happy-go-lucky all the time in the real world. Meanwhile, the new spiderman doesn't even punch anyone. Batman kills people, big woop, policemen do that all the time.
Superheroes are supposed to be better than us. They are an ideal to aspire to. Batman is supposed to be humanity at it's peak. They shouldn't need to kill anyone the way ordinary civilians and cops do. They have had codes against killing for most of their written histories, in spite of a handful of exceptions. If Batman is gonna kill he might as well pick up a gun already. But he's Batman, not Punisher.

Logan and Deadpool have done "comic shit for mature adults like myself" better than Snyder's pretentious shit. Or Suicide Squad.

Comics are a medium, more than a genre. Even capeshit comics have a wide variety of tones and genres and audiences. There's space for all of that in film too.

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>>93880665
I really, really do hate seeing the same images and charts from /tv/ being posted on every thread.
But this is the only one I can tolerate because I adore Batman Returns and I consider it, next to Spider-Man 2, the pinnacle of cinema regarding capes.
I could talk about that movie and all the influences that shape it all day.

>>93880702
Is that your final defense of the MCU? If you want, I can use Spider-Man, Hellboy, Iron Man (pre-Disney era), Watchmen and so on.

The result will all be the same. MCU is film garbage. It is the equivalent of McDonald's in films. Even Michael Bay, known to insult his audiences, atleast respects the basics and actually shoots his films in a visually striking manner. The MCU doesn't even have that. It has nothing but brand recognition going for it. There is nothing of quality to extract from these films. There is nothing new. No innovations. No risks. It's routine.

>>93880691
Keep moving your goalposts, buddy. This theme is as forgettable as anything from the Marvel movies. It's just yet another Zimmerman theme using the same fucking beat, and the same piano breakdowns he used so fucking many times before. It's just a shit forgettable theme, without a memorable melody or hook, which he kinda accomplished with WW's theme by doing something different to all the soundtracks he's done since TDKR.
I can't mention anything from the MCU because those are shit too. It's a problem with pretty much all modern movies, not just superhero ones.

>>93880550
>>93880550
>>93880550
>>93880550
>>93880550

>>93880752
I'll take that as a no then. You are unable to provide an MCU theme on par with the ones in the DCEU. Maybe if you stopped being so defensive about the MCU and actually admitted its flaws, Feige would be forced to actually improve on his shit but that's too much to ask for I guess.

>>93879354
>Comic books are not for anyone with a sense of decency

fixed

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>>93880702
Honestly ? It very well could be, if more people cared to watch it and it came out today. Just look at some of the controversy it raised and what some have said about it.

>https://www.counter-currents.com/2012/06/batman-returns-an-anti-semitic-allegory/
>Using “images and cultural stereotypes,” director Tim Burton “depicts the Penguin as one of the oldest cultural clichés: the Jew who is bitter, bent over and out for revenge, the Jew who is unathletic and seemingly unthreatening but who, in fact, wants to murder every firstborn child of the gentile community.”
>The Penguin feigns assimilation into society and gains the citizens’ trust for a time. But eventually even the ignorant masses understand this false prophet for what he is, a primordial beast who seeks retribution, ‘an eye for an eye.'”
>The evil, wealthy capitalist who allies himself with the Penguin against the citizens of Gotham is named “Max Shreck” after German actor Max Schreck, who portrayed Nosferatu. Metaphorically, Shreck is a blood-sucking vampire. Shreck “wants only power, but the Jew who has suffered wants to punish others for the crime that was committed against him.”
>“The Penguin’s evil plan is the enactment of a paranoid notion that Jews’ effort to preserve their heritage and culture is a guise for elitist and hostile intentions.”
>“Batman Returns takes place at Christmas time. The Christmas tree, the lights and the mistletoe serve a thematic purpose. They represent the Christian ethic, which will save Gotham City from the false ideology of the Penguin. In the final scene Batman articulates the distinctly Christian moral of this film: ‘Merry Christmas and good will toward men . . . and women.'”

>>93880424
Spider-Man had the Spider-Man theme. I remember that pretty clearly.

The suit up and first flight from Ironman is pretty memorable.

>>93880703
>But he's Batman, not Punisher.
Not to mention he's a hypocritical coward that marks people so the inmates do "justice" for him.
It's like they went out of their way to ruin something that was a sure hit. Not surprising coming from someone who thought a mature take on supeheroes would be Batman getting raped in prison.

>comic book movies should be dark and not appeal to children
wow those are some hot hot opinions

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>>93880797
The whole film is literally about saving Batman from his brutal methods by him coming to terms with his childhood trauma.

You can't complain about one thing while ignoring the context. That is you being ignorant on purpose to make an argument about NOT MUH BATMAN when the film explicitly portrays him as lost.

>>93880767
How am I being defensife of the MCU when I'm saying their music is garbage?
I'm just not trying to deny DC's is too.
Thanks to your shitty company wars mentality, mediocrity runs rampant because each side is willing to defend their company's shitty products.

Focusing too much on the parts has you missing the whole.

Disney isnt interested in pushing the envelope or being "art" - its making entertainment.

Its made a rollercoaster that everyone wants to ride again and again, and you're complaining about the visuals and music involved.

Its not "high art". Its not trying to be. Its trying to be entertainment.

You know, like most comics.

>>93880550
>>93880550
>>93880550
>>93880550
>>93880550
pls respond

>>93880837
Art is also entertainment.

>>93880837
Its not going to change the ride until people stop coming back.

And even then, I promise its not going to be mass defections because of "muh cinematography" or "muh memorable score". Those problems will remain as they shift around the structure of the ride to try to catch people's attention again.

Wonder Woman is much closer to an art film than it is to any MCU schlock

>>93880550
>>93880841
I doubt OP actually wanted an answer to this question but it's not complicated.

Marvel movies play it as safe and predictably as possible with just enough fun and quips and light-hearted product placements to win everyone over. Kids wants to see heroes on the screen. Teenagers are part of the "geek culture" that has allowed these films to grow as much as they did. Adults can watch dumb action movies. It's like Overwatch or McDonalds, it's for everyone first and foremost.

The DCEU has gone in the opposite direction by hiring a man who's exceptionally notable for excess and grimdark idiocy, a director who loves Excalibur so much he tries to make every movie he directs just like it in terms of scope. DC jumped late on the cinematic universe train and then they really tried to catch up and rush everything, which made the films bloated. The DCEU doesn't really appeal to anyone but edgelords, die-hard slaves to anything with the DC brand on it, and people who just want to watch a loud action movie with special effects and people fighting. These movies still make a shitton of money, they are just not all-appealing like Marvel is because the DCEU doesn't have their priorities straight. They don't dominate the cultural landscape like Marvel does, and it's not because of "paid critics". They just jumped on the train too late and then tripped over themselves trying to catch up.

And /co/ doesn't accept this. Every single day there's at least one thread complaining about it, let alone the dozens of threads on /tv/ about how DC makes underappreciated 2deep4u kino and Marvel is the cancer killing cinema forever and ever.

>>93880813
The whole film is about Batman not being anything like Batman, just like MoS was about Superman not being anything like Superman.
It's not a "NOT MUH" thing, these characters have their own characteristics. There are common traits to all portrayals that keep them recognizable and people can relate to them thanks to that. It's not simply that it killed, it's how he was a totally hypocritical shit about it, like in the example that I mentioned, and also how it doesn't make sense in the extended universe that a ruthless Batman didn't already kill big threats like Joker and Deadshot but didn't have any issues murdering some nameless goons, or sending them branded to prison so someone else would kill them for him.
Burton's Batman was more pragmatic than comic book Batman, but still felt like Batman because it was still a guy trying to do his best to improve his city. BvS Batman comes off as a scared and resentful asshole that is simply focused on killing Superman.

>>93880927
Just stop. Don't waste your time. It's not worth it. You'll get nothing out of this.

>>93880927
>Batman not being anything like Batman
the whole movie is about exactly that and how Superman turns him back into Batman

Only fans of the comics would know this

>>93880912
"Dominate the cultural landscape." Jesus.

>>93880850
Don't play retarded, you know what I'm talking about.

It's the same in other mediums.

Comics, books, television, music, videogames. Style and design and "the art" can be huge aspects of any of these things, and can make them interesting and memorable and "important".

But so can just being entertaining. Being enjoyable. Being something that people enjoy.

>>93880904
Wonder Woman was predictable, unfunny, unmotivated, and just as cookie cutter plot-wise as any MCU movie. Not sure why it receives the praise it does.

>>93880961
That's just a fancy way to put how Marvel and the MCU dominate pop culture in a way that DC doesn't.
You get the point.

>>93881005

How did an armadillo get to Paradise Island. I will NOT accept it as "just because" or "suspend my disbelief" they are a NEW WORLD species how did one get to a magical island in the Agean I WANT ANSWERS

>>93880165
>normie
>implying normies wouldnt be the ones constantly complaining about how superman wouldnt work in the real world and batman is more relatable because he's such a human just like me

>>93880954
>how Superman turns him back into Batman
Which comes completely out of nowhere and it's not in character with who Batman is in the movie.
I'm a fan of the comics, but if you do a movie that only fans of the comics can "understand", you're failing miserably at what you're supposed to do. A 250 million dollar film isn't aimed at comic fans, it's aimed at a general audience. An audience that doesn't even know what the fuck was that Knightmare scene supposed to be all about, and who was that Mexican looking dude that came out of Bruce's screen.
But even if we ignore that, the movie has to make sense and be coherent in itself. How does the 180 flip Batman does in just a couple of minutes is justified at all simply by realizing Superman's got a mom? He goes from killing the guy being his main goal in life to crying about him dying in a matter of minutes? That's just fucking shitty writing, and you know it.
And I can understand Batman being against Superman, but you don't need to make him a hypocritical asshole to do it. Most of Batman's shitty actions are completely unjustified within the movie itself. The fact that he's afraid and hates Superman so much doesn't mean he should be killing hired goons, while leaving much more dangerous criminals alive.

>>93881005

>Not sure why it receives the praise it does.

Because it leaves time for genuine emotional beats like the dance in the town square or Steve and Diana talking on the boat or Diana talking with the other members of the team.

The romance is what saves that movie. The rest of it is good, but if it didn't forge a genuine emotional connection between the lead characters it would be "that movie with the No Man's Land sequence' and nothing else.

>>93880954

>the whole movie is about exactly that and how Superman turns him back into Batman

And it fails to provide both a compelling reason for why Batman became this way and why he changed back.

"It's the point" is not a defense.

>>93881040
The armadillo and that goat-like animal that showed up when Diana was about to make her big leap of faith were probably Zeus, who like Ares he's likely not dead but weakened. He usually turned into animals to get closer to humans in Greek mythology. I don't think those animals were the focus of attention on their respective scenes just because "lol random armadillo".
Might be complete fanfic, but that's how I saw it.

>>93881079
It isn't that he realized for the first time Batman had parents ("I bet your parents told you that you were special...") it's that he realized that he had human parents--that this was a human being he was about to murder, not a monster from outer space.

>>93881113
Unlike those other humans he murdered during the rest of the movie?

>>93881131
Human traffickers have a much more questionable claim to be "people" but I thought your complaint was his whole attitude does a 180 after that one moment? It doesn't, hence he wastes that fool in the technical.

>>93880912
i like to see marvel a lot like a modern star wars

it takes tropes and stories we have seen a hundred times and puts it together in a single well-executed package
it isnt "predictable" or "safe", meaningless buzzwords, but more like "tried and true", it focuses on a tight telling of the heroes journey, we may be familiar with it, but we all love it whether the first or thousandth time
heck i just love seeing the heroes journey in superheroes as i do with hobbits, and i find less enjoyment in subversions of the heroes journey

and people like to throw family friendly as a bad term, but i see it as a good thing, since most family films ends up in the garbage but MCU is doing just fine, regardless of 4chans opinion
i feel like making it rely on a simple plot and simple morals and being able to talk to kids and adults makes it a lot more accessible, the kind of thing you watch as a kid then watch years later as an adult still having so much fun
it doesnt rely on shock or intrigue, just good jokes, good action, and good characters
you may disagree, but 4chans opinion is always to be taken with a grain of salt

i also find more rewatch value in a light hearted film, when youre having a bad day just pop in one of those films and you can just forget about your worries for a while, just have a great time
i love more dark films as well, but when i feel like crap Avengers 1, iron man, and cany of the captain americas really makes me feel like everything will be ok
i may know how it ends, but i still feel invested in what they're doing

>>93881111
I didn't notice a goat in that scene but that sounds plausible... I'll have to watch it again with an eye for any goats.

>>93881131
Well I'm sure they didn't have moms.
And most of them weren't deadly gods from outer space who could snap and destroy humanity on a whim, regardless of whether or not they had a human mother.

>>93881176
You don't need heat vision to be a monster!

Also Batman really only kills like two guys in the whole movie. The rest die by their own hand.

>>93881145
My question was why he does a 180 in respect of Superman. You say it's because he realizes he was about to murder a human being, because he had human parents. Then what about those other humans he murders?
You say that it's because "human traffickers" are shit, but Batman sees Superman as a threat just as big if not much bigger than them. That's why he's obssessed with killing him. So then again, why does he change his mind simply by knowing Superman's parents are human, when he didn't care about not only those human traffickers, but all the rest of the people he branded and those Luthor goons he killed both before and after becoming BFFs with Superman? Didn't they have human parents as well, therefore being human themselves? What if he finds out one of the traffickers had a mom called Martha?

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>>93879354
>Even after they finally get a good movie, DCEUfags are still salty as hell.

>>93881176
>And most of them weren't deadly gods from outer space who could snap and destroy humanity on a whim, regardless of whether or not they had a human mother.
So it makes sense to kill them, but not to kill the guy that can destroy the world?
Also, it's said that he has branded a bunch of people before, who get brutalized and murdered in jail, just as he kills at least 2 or 3 guys in the batmobile chase and then there's those guys he machine guns with his plane, not to mention the guys in the warehouse fight.

>>93881079
>Which comes completely out of nowhere
It literally starts with him fleeing from his childhood trauma into a bat of caves.

Don't blame the film for your own ignorance. You spend more time making these shitposts than actually watching the film.

>>93881205
Batman fears what Superman could do, not what he's done specifically. Realizing he was wrong about what Superman is makes him doubt himself. Then when Superman sacrifices himself, Batman realizes that not only was he wrong, Superman was right---the world isn't just an endless losing battle against evil, it has good, and it deserves heroes.

For most of the movie, including when he saves Martha, Batman doesn't see himself as a hero. He fights criminals because it's all he knows but he's on autopilot, in a sense--moving through a dreamworld, or more precisely a nightmare.

Can we talk about the fact that RDJ slams a huge alien ship into a skyscraper and does nothing but a quip followed by a Widow quip? There were probably thousands in that skyscraper, all dead because Tony wanted to show off.

>>93881240
Actually he only brands two guys--they mention that it's a new thing after the first time we see him do it.

>>93881240
>So it makes sense to kill them, but not to kill the guy that can destroy the world?
It doesn't.
Oh but I'm sure there is some Jesus symbolism and Youtube essays that can explain this.

>>93881276
most people in the are cordoned off by the avengers were safely evacuated to the subway

the avengers are good at their job, although people seem to be assholes never appreciate them for both saving he world and doing it in style

>>93881240
Also, he only directly kills two people: the guy he runs over in the Batmobile, and the guy behind the .50 cal who had a chance to run but chose to fire on the Batwing instead.

Batman doesn't murder anyone with his own hands in the movie, he allows people to die. It's an important distinction that shows his mental state.

>>93879354
>So why do the MCU films get away here with being so childish while the DCEU gets shit on for approaching more mature topics?

MCU is competently shallow while DCEU is incompetent in trying to be deep

Raimi, Singer, Burton and Nolan get the balance right most of the time

>>93881150
> A good and nuanced review of the MCU without meme buzzwords as critisism

Pretty spot on, except for the morally simple point, as 99% of the heroes in the MCU don't have any no kill rule, and they display them killing soldiers, terrorists and others without any restraint. Iron mans first outing comes to mind when he kills all the terrorists in some pretty calculated and cruel ways. The Guardians aren't really heroes, as they are more guns for hire who wouldn't say no for a dirty job if it pays enough. And Cap is a soldier far more than a traditional hero, which makes him kill Hydra soldiers in some pretty brutal ways. The only heroes so far that haven't killed anyone directly/non directly in the MCU movies are Spider-man and Ant-man.

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>>93881287

>>93881348
>MCU is competently shallow while DCEU is incompetent in trying to be deep

damn that's a good way of putting it

>>93881276
Thats what the netflix shows talk about when they mention the incident, hundreds of casualities and many more hurt physically and financially. Remember Tony is still a selfish prick at this point and Natasha is just an assassin without any remorse for human life so...

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>>93881287
>>93881401

>>93881318
>most people in the are cordoned off by the avengers were safely evacuated to the subway
How do you evacuate thousands of people in skyscrapers into subways in a matter of minutes? Did Cap America use a Star Trek beam?

>>93881348
>>93881403
Its an excellent way to put it.

>>93881411
Fair enough, I misremembered that. It still goes along with Batman not killing so much as being indifferent to the fate of the criminals he fights.

>>93880783
Good to see Sam Raimi wrote the script for Batman Returns

>>93881449
He's not indifferent, he's actively trying to get them harmed in prison.
And again, he kills at least 2 people in the chase, machine guns a bunch of others with his plane and kills KGBeast while rescuing Martha (and I've been told it's shown that he kills some other guys in the extended cut version of the warehouse fight, but I haven't seen it so I'm not sure about that).

>>93881412
>Did Cap America use a Star Trek beam?

Don't be stupid. Thor had them beamed up to the Kelvin.

>>93881527
In a moral sense, he is responsible for their deaths. However, he isn't directly killing them because he hasn't become The Punisher but lost his belief--the 'why' of why he became a crimefighter to begin with.

>>93881579
He's directly killing those guy's he's crushing with his batmobile, gunning down with his plane and he kills KGBeast directly as well.
Not to mention "not directly" killing them but doing something that will get those people killed is not only still killing them, but also it's an act of hypocrisy and cowardice.

>>93881168
When she's about to jump to that tower in order to steal the lasso, armor and sword, there's some goat-like animal there. No idea what kind of animal it actually is, but she even looks at it, and I think she even says something to it.

>>93880665
Why did this movie bomb again ?

Why is Batman your go-to example when Batman, for the majority of his history has been for an older demographic?

Meanwhile a kid absolutely can enjoy Superman and Action Comics, which while not specifically for kids can easily be enjoyed by someone of any age.

Kids entertainment doesn't have to be something made for little dumb babies like Marvel's cartoon tie-ins. They just have to be simple enough that a kid can enjoy them.

Go read Marvel's original 60's comics. Kids absolutely can enjoy all the fun of Spider-Man fighting Green Goblin while an older person can appreciate the plot line involving Harry and Norman and can relate to Peter as a character.

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>>93881701
>when Batman, for the majority of his history has been for an older demographic?
Really ?
An older demographic, you say ?
Let's take a look

>1940s
Batman debuts as a kid friendly imitation of The Shadow to capitalize on the fall of the pulps. Some killings here and there but comic books are still first and foremost a kid's medium. People have bigger things to worry about.
>50s
Self-explanatory
>60s
Self-explanatory again
>70s
Bronze Age got Batman's style back to an extent but they still didn't shake off the stigma to a mainstream audience, so kids were still the main demographic.
>80s
This is where the Dark Age of comics begins so let's make some leeway for your argument here.
>90s
Continuation of the Dark Age.
>00s/10s
By this point Batman has diversified to the point of being capable of filling in for both markets without having to exclude any. There's Batman stuff for an older demographic, but there's a lot of Batman stuff for a younger demographic too.

So, in Batman's 70 year history, 30 of those years were marketed heavily to children first and foremost, 20 of those are where comics did try to appeal to "older demographics", and the other 20 focus on both demographics almost equally.
Do you still think Batman was "for the majority of his history been for an older demographic" ?
The character's been for kids as long as he exists. It's just that adults got to join the fun later and eventually kids got used to violence.

Logan told a mature story for a mature audience.

Deadpool fucked around to entertain a mature audience in stupid ways.

Marvel movies tell simple childish stories to everyone. Their Netflix series tell more mature stories in more mature ways (generally).

Man of Steel and BvS take fairly simple, childish stories, and spend all of their time trying to make them seem way more mature and deep, with the most "mature" storytelling they can manage.

For a lot of people, it just doesn't work. The problem isn't that they're making movies for adults, its that they're making movies poorly, and trying to make simple kiddy concept seem way deeper than they actually are. Its that layer of unearned pretentiousness that puts a lot of people off.

Logan pulled off the adult comic book film. DC keeps fucking it up, and Marvel isn't bothering (except on Netflix, where its hit and miss at best) because adults still watch their shit.

>>93881922
Wonder Woman actually does a pretty good job of telling a "mature" story in a way that is accessible to children while still being adult.

Except for the big dumb DC monster fight at the end. That shit turns into a mess.

>>93879483
This.
I grew up watching 80s action and horror movies, I remember finding Nightmare on the Elm Street very funny as a 10 year old.

>>93879483
>millenials
>20s & 30s

Are you retarded?

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>>93881922
>Logan told a mature story for a mature audience.
No it did not.

Logan attempted to deconstruct superheroes but instead made them look even more cartoonish and ridiculous than before. Don't let me even start on the cartoon Trump dystopia in which Logan takes place, where the writer is literally crying over himself because Hillary lost and then had to make this bizzare ass story about an aging Logan pointing at comics and saying they're not real (I would not know if they didn't point this out).

Logan is not mature. Logan is cartoonish as fuck. Even more so when you consider the writer thinks he's clever for pointing out the obvious shit he does. Nothing in this film is mature. It's mature the same way gore horror films of the 80's are. Meaning not at all.

Atleast BvS and MoS portray a world that doesn't function as cartoonish as Logan, where politicians, media and the elite establishment all engage in a power play over the Superman character.

>>93880424
>Do you remember the music of the last Marvel movie you watched?
AND IF YOU DON'T LOVE ME NOW

>>93881966
Also, Atlleast when BvS reduces Superman to a victim, it does so as a necessary aspect to save Batman by recognizing Superman as a victim and not a villain. Meanwhile Logan is portrayed as a pathetic fuck who doesn't accomplish anything and engage in the most frustrating decisions ever recorded on film. Yeah let's definitely go on a dinner with Socially Relevant Black Family Talking About Hardships.

Good job!

I don't get what's wrong with making movies primarily for kids. Especially superhero movies.

Plus, the MCU wouldn't have made so much money if it only appealed to kids. The reason why Marvel movies are so successful is because they appeal to everyone, from your 7 year old nephew to your 45 year old mom that thinks Chris Hemsworth is very handsome. Do you autists actually believe The Avengers made 1.5 billion just from kids and teenagers?

>>93881965
Anon, millenials refers to an age group that would have entered the work force at the turn of the millenium. The previously known term for them was Generation Y (as they came after generation X).

You weren't retarded enough to think millenials referred to people born at the turn of the millenum, were you?

>>93881966
>>93881998

whut

Logan built out the world that way so it could slot in tropes of old Westerns, it has nothing to do with Trump.

I watched the film with director's commentary and they never mention Trump once. The movie was written months before Ronald The Donald took office. It wrapped up principal photography in fucking August.

The fuck are you talking about?

>and then had to make this bizarre ass story about an aging Logan pointing at comics and saying they're not real (I would not know if they didn't point this out).

Because it fit into the themes of Westerns again, the idea of "printing the legend" that grows beyond the characters. Mangold did the same thing with the penny novels Logan Lerman read in 3:10 to Yuma.

>>93882348
Yeah the part where the film interrupts itself to watch a western for 10 minutes was enough for anyone to get that.


>http://www.denofgeek.com/us/movies/logan/262194/logan-a-perfect-x-men-movie-for-the-age-of-donald-trump

“We’re just trying to reflect our world,” Mangold told me. “This movie, we finished writing the last full script was just about a year ago... and the politics of both what was happening in Europe and in USA were all around us while making the movie.”

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>>93880318
>There is nothing deep about any DCEU movie. They have the depth of a student film.
They're flawed, but I don't think you give them enough credit.

>>93882385
They are flawed because they are constructed as paradigm shifts. Man of Steel is about bringing a new age of superheroes to film and even the film reflects if the world is "ready for Superman".

The final scene of Clark being forced to choose between humans and Zod is precisely the coming of change that this new age of superheroes bring, where they have to navigate their ideals through a world where no option is defined completely in black or white.

>>93882380

> “This movie, we finished writing the last full script was just about a year ago... and the politics of both what was happening in Europe and in USA were all around us while making the movie.”

"The world is in a bad place" is not the same thing as screaming about Trump.

>>93882400
Saying "the world is in a bad place" and then have your story basically reduced into a Trump dystopia with walls and the big bad white police coming for illegal immigrants IS screaming about Trump. You might not want to see this but the rest of the world did. And it comes off especially cheap in a story that wants us to take its setting seriously.

>>93882428

>Saying "the world is in a bad place" and then have your story basically reduced into a Trump dystopia with walls and the big bad white police coming for illegal immigrants IS screaming about Trump

Yeah because it''s not like the US-Mexico border hasn't been fertile ground for Westerns since the original Magnificent Seven back in the fucking 60's.

You're steaming yourself over nothing.

>>93882385
Do you have a similar grid for Watchmen?

>>93880424
>>93880508
>>93880584
fuck off kid

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QBKy93OGeOg

>>93879933
Nice memes.

>>93879354
DC gets shit for doing bad movies, not for trying matures themes. Which they aren't, in any case.

>>93879483
This. I read Sven Hassel books when I was eight years old. Shit was fantastic.

>>93881701
>the majority of his history has been for an older demographic?
Kids love Batman.

>>93879354
snyder fags still fagging it up i see

>>93879539
>fidget spinners

>>93879354
In a word: escapism.

And I will pin part of it on 9/11 which, as I recall, caused a surge in shows like "Friends" because people needed to feel joy again. The internet and video on demand only facilitated this escapism until a generation grew up obsessed with 'binge watching' shows. You have people religiously tuning in every week because they care for characters as if real people. When somebody gets killed on 'The Walking Dead', you have people breaking down in tears and screaming.

Now, with the need for escapism came the popularization of nerd culture - superheroes as our new mythological figures able to fix any problem. Feeble-minded people, desperate to ignore the real world, live their lives through fiction. So when you have only a dozen dead in Marvel's 9/11, it's wish fulfillment that only so few would have died in the actual event - and when DC's equivalent is displayed with all its death and destruction, it confronts these people with the reality they wish to subvert.

In a way, the people who root for all these superheroes who exist in this perfect fantasy land, they're just as damaged as Bruce Wayne and his "Martha doesn't die tonight" but on a much larger scale.

So in comic books and films, creators and readers are able to live out a fantasy world where their kind of justice wins. It's kind of like shitposting on 4chan and even if we all agree, it's not going to make an ounce of difference once we close our computers and step outside.

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>So why do the MCU films get away here with being so childish

They're not SO childish, they're just MORE childish than DC movies.

They're also different in style, presenting a vibrant and fun conflict with focus on characters, whilst DC focuses on grand boring plots and has a darker tone.

Comics and comic book movies are not for children, you're right. But they're not for >40 philosophers too. They're for young people that want a good story to entertain themselves.

These media are supposed to deal with mature topics from a young person POV. First experiencing loss and tragedy, but carrying on and enjoying living. The DC movies are broody and angsty, showing the bad side of the world and it's consequences without ever telling you why life's enjoyable. And they try to be "cool" in the process. It's a mess.

>nobody cares for civilians fatalities, as long as we see Captain America caring for them.
>superman is NEVER happy in the DCEU
>Spider-man punches and kicks several times in Homecoming

>Goofy costumes and bad jokes do not a good movie make.
They're nailing it right now, contrarian.

Why are adults only allowed to consume "mature" content?

>>93880424

>this much neglecting of an artists work
>this much neglecting a businessmen taste for art

If you really cared for the heart people put into stuff, you'd actually see it. Not everything is taylored for you.

Yes I do. I remember each and every character theme. Because I care.

Fuck off.

>>93880424

>200 million dollars project
>IT'S NOT REAL ART

You're mistaken if you expect ANY movie to be pure art.

>>93887621
my 14 year old cousin hates them

>>93888855

This. I can't point 3 things Superman likes.

>>93881922

>Its that layer of unearned pretentiousness that puts a lot of people off.

Holy shit, this.

>>93879947
Which was fucking weird. Can you imagine a six year old sitting down to watch BvS?

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>>93879354

Logical flaw: Equating maturity with violence and grit

Logical flaw: Subtly pushing that explicit violence is somehow necessary for beleivabiltiy or enjoyment of a superhero movie,

Logical flaw: Thinking adults don't want escapist, "fun" movies

Logical flaw: Underestimating what kids are interested in

Massive logic hole you sidestep because you know it sinks your grievance: The issue of *actual film quality,* which plays a WAY bigger part in determining how well-regarded each cinematic universe is and how much they can "get away" with in how they depict topics and situations.

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>>93881653
It didn't bomb, it just didn't do as expected and it went way beyond what most people expected, or wanted, it to go. People wanted a Batman movie and they got a Tim Burton film instead. It was criticized for being too "dark", but really the problem is that it was too weird and artsy for people who just wanted to take their kids to a Batman movie. Critics loved it, but at the time, audiences and parents blasted it to hell and back.
People wanted to see a Penguin who looked and acted funny like Burgess Meredith in the tv show, something they could sell Happy Meal toys out, and what they got was Danny Devito in vampire make-up biting noses, spewing sludge and ranting about how he was going to murder all the children in Gotham.
Things like Catwoman's apparent coming back to life (which is really just left ambiguous in the movie), or the sexual dialogue put off audiences.

This was a Batman summer blockbuster who's opening scene consisted of showing a married couple dumping their monstrous cat-eating baby into the sewer, on Christmas, where he is carried until he's found by a pack of penguins in the zoo, in a reference to the tale of Moses. That's like, what, 5 ways to trigger Christian moms in just one scene. And it only gets wackier from there on.
It wasn't made to be kid-friendly or even that faithful to the source material. This movie is Tim Burton playing with a million dollar budget and franchise with full creative freedom to make up for his frustrations with Batman 89 by radically warping Batman into an intentionally grotesque and twisted opera, without executives breathing down his neck.
Kids still liked it because it had Batman and it was weird and funny.
But concerned parents, advertisers and other groups threw enough fits to get Burton removed from the franchise (and I think even he just got tired of Batman, although apparently he was willing to do another one involving the Scarecrow).

>>93879354
MCU get away by being fun escapist entertainment. If people want mature stories, they can watch non-cape movies.

DCEU gets shit on because it tries to be "mature" but is really to 2edgy4u bullshit that panders to angsty teens

>>93880193
that scene is like a 1 v 1 and the banter is signaling its start

>>93879354
This has been the case since TDKR in the late 80s. How are you realizing this just now?

>>93881966
>Don't let me even start on the cartoon Trump dystopia in which Logan takes place, where the writer is literally crying over himself because Hillary lost and then had to make this bizzare ass story about an aging Logan pointing at comics and saying they're not real (I would not know if they didn't point this out).
Buddy, it wasn't filmed when Trump was president, there wasn't any Trump hysteria during the movie's development in 2016. It was released when Trump became president and all the Trump stuff is all in your head.

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>>93879354
I wish BvS' problems were just about tone

>Movie opens with Lois being sent in a dangerous interview-mission with an African warlord accompanied by photographer Jimmy Olsen, except he's not a photographer but a CIA agent which pisses off the warlord so he gets a bullet in the head, and Lois is about to get one too except Superman is there and saves her but for some reason didn't care about anyone else, and when he fucks off it turns out Lex's men are there too because he realized Lois' boyfriend is Superman for reasons we'll never know, and they kill everyone there with super-bullets but then burn their corpses so it looks like Superman burned them except logic dictates any medic could determine bullets did it, but anyway this was all to make it so that a villager would testimony against Supes to tarnish his reputation, but for some reason the woman still had to be corrupt by Lex to talk to the US' politicians, and then she's killed anyway by Lex to supposedly remove a potential witness to his crimes although her departure would normally raise eyebrows, but anyway this is all to cause Supes to come to a hearing and face consequences of actions he never did except Lex doesn't want that and just makes everyone in the room explode (including his assistant cuz fuck secondary characters) with cripple-man's chair, which btw was covered in lead to hide the bomb despite the fact that this limit in Supes' powers was never established and he had no reason to look for it anyway (in fact he didn't) and partially this whole ordeal was also to make Batman hate Supes even more although many clues and the fact that he's getting minatory letters from dead people should tip him off that a 3rd party (Lex) is involved, and btw the we'll never know how Lex realized Bruce is Batman

That's how me and a friend tried to sum up the movie recently. It's fucking crazy how contrived the script is to get to the simple "and then Superman and Batman punch each other" part

Cont.

Book publishers have been killing it with kids and all ages comics for a good while now.
Everything isn't Marvel and DC superheroes.

>>93891062
Cont.

And the funny part is that the director's cut makes it even worse and dissipates all the theories that it was Studio meddling that made the theatrical cut confusing. Remember how people came up with the explanation that the African lady only accused Superman of mistakenly escalating the violence in the village, instead of literally accusing him of randomly killing people? Fucking fan theories were smarter than the reality of the full movie

But to answer your made-up doubts about tone and themes, the thing is that in attempting to make the conflict grey they turned both Supes and Bats in the same shapeless blobs that end up determing they want to fight for themselves. There was a YT video that explained it best, Bruce is shown as the objectivist hero ("muh 1%, we were always criminals") not too dissimilar from TDKR's, which supposedly contrasts Supes' selfless heroism... except throughout the movie he gets various lessons to learn he has to fight for himself too. So by the time the big conflict comes in Batman is fighting for revenge and Superman to save himself and his mom. There's no moral conflict, that one was limited to the bants at the party scene, and because of plot contrivancies Superman barely has any agency in the fight, he's just there because forced despite how eager he was before to trash Bats' car (letting bazooka-armed criminals run scot free btw)

So tl;dr the movie ends up being about making everyone miserable, dumb for the sake of the plot to function and then dead in Superman's case. There was no excitement to get out of it all except i guess the JL hype. Tell me why anyone should enjoy or even praise this mess? Where's the maturity you're speaking about?The movie ends with everything being thrown out the window to fight a cave troll. The movie was still scared of approaching the topic of what happens to casual victims of these city-wide fights - it literally just had characters repeating you you can conveniently forget about it

>>93889367
Yes, there were lots of kids in the theater when I went to see it. One even cried when Superman died.


You are dumb and dont hang around enough parents/children enough.


T. Someone whose co-workers are mostly parents now, and who has worked at multiple schools and summer camps.

>>93889367
see
>>93879483
&>>93879539

>>93879539
This is the real truth right here.

>>93879866
I bet you thought this was really clever, but really it doesnt say anything at all.


In no way does that text macro imply that one tone/mode of escape is anymore valid than another.
You fucking faux intellectual idiot.

>>93880592

>But Snyder finds the least interesting way to explore his influences. All I got out of BvS was a desire to rewatch Excalibur. He feels like every asshole who tried to copy Fincher's visual aesthetic after Se7en but with nerd-bait cult properties instead.


What the fuck are you even saying here. Your entire sentence invalidates itself, like if you really think the fincher influence is that strong than the excalibur influence CANT be as strong as you also imply it is.
And I think he does explore his influences pretty interestingly, especially how he uses the Exaclibur bits as a way of saying the story of Superman is the archtypical messiah story that we see repeated over and over and over again (Apollo, Jesus, Moses, King Arthur, etc.) and then he ties that in to the main themeof the movie of Superman just being a guy trying his best.

>>93879959
I was born a few years earlier, but Moore Superman was some of my first Superman stories too as a kid.

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>>93881048
I actually read comics and know that in the majority of the comics Superman is NOT happy go lucky most of the time.

>>93880318
Literally what is wrong with what Snyder is saying in that pic? All he is saying is that Batman Begins isnt dark, which he is right. And is it really so outlandish to say "that could happen in my movie" in relation to WATCHMEN? A story that DOES actually feature rape in it?


Goddamn you are retarded.

>>93880394
Now if only RLM could admit the same thing...

>>93879354
The first Batman comic i read as a kid was about Ras and the Lazarus pit. I'm pretty sure Bats fuck Talia at some point.

>>93881205
After their fight Batman realizes Superman is a man, a man who didnt do anything wrong (unlike the traffickers). He continues to kill because he has already fallen and still doesnt believe he can be saved. Its not until Superman sacrifices himself that he realizes men can still be good (he even says so) and finally decides to fully go back to not killing. This is puncuated by his not branding Luthor in prison, and further by him saving Harley Quinn and Joker in Squad.

>>93881965
Son, don't be one of those people that uses "millennial" wrong. Millennials are currently in their 20s and early 30s.

>>93880703
so you've never read comics then? Superheroes arent meant to inherently be better than us, just like stories of gods, or even jesus, are inherently better than us. They are meant to be examples in every form. Sometimes they are examples of failing. Sometimes they are examples of dealing with hardships. Sometimes they are examples of having to make difficult choices, or trying to do right in a world that isn't black and white, or any number of things.
We are the stories we tell.
Also you are ignoring what this anon said
>>93880813
>>93880954


which is 100% right

>>93881406
>its mentioned in this non-canon side story


great, really just fantastic, that really shows they are actually treating their world with care

>>93881131
>>93881176
>>93881240
>>93881287
>>93881411
>>93881401
>>93881449
>>93881527
>>93881579
>>93881605
Okay you guys need to stop being retarded.


First off, the killing the branded people in jail was orchestrated by Luthor, and Batman stops doing it once he finds out they are dying.


Second, Batman is manslaughtering/killing at first out of desperation to stop Superman (he doesnt actually kill anyone until after the senate bombing when trying to get the kryptonite, and its aided by the fact the he thinks he already 'killed' peoople with his brand, despite it being Luthor). Once he finds out Superman is just a man, and realize he didnt do anything wrong, he has no reason to want to kill him. Yes he still kills/manslaughters a few people after because he has already fallen (and as illustrated in the beginning of the movie, he thinks his no kill promise is worthless and that which falls is fallen forever). Its not until Superman's sacrifice does he think man (and by extension himself) can be good again. He even says as much.
Is it so hard for you people to follow movies?

>>93880424
I do listen regularly to the Civil War end theme.

>>93881701
see
>>93879483 & >>93879539

>>93880193
Quicksilver will be resurrected briefly for this ???

>>93879354
>DCEU
>approaching more mature topics

Give it a rest, the DC movies (with the exception of Wonder Woman) were shit on because they were shitty movies. That's it. Done. This conversation is so dumb and exhausting.

>a medium that involves reading
>not for kids
No fucking shit. It's for teenagers.

>>93889091
>>93888855
>superman is NEVER happy in the DCEU

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CAN-oSXZOwg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VlINHSnUx9k


>I can't point 3 things Superman likes.

Standing up for the little guy (as he says to Perry and Bruce)
Lois Lane
talking to the common man
Saving people (very obvious since he keeps doing it despite all the criticism, and its basically his passion and hobby he does in all his free time)
Reading (as seen when he is a child reading The Republic)
Being a reporter
Getting to know people (he spends about 15 years just taking odd jobs, doing acts of heroism, and people watching)
Learning about Krypton's history
His father and mother
Pete Ross (Pete helps him as a kid when he is bullied and comes to his funeral)
Try paying more attention, you guys seem to have really poor memories. Glad I could help though.

>>93889639
>Equating maturity with violence and grit

No one is doing that but you with your assumptions. Where does OP ever say that? Also saying "logical flaw" is fucking autisitic as shit.

> Subtly pushing that explicit violence is somehow necessary for beleivabiltiy or enjoyment of a superhero movie

No where does OP do that

>Thinking adults don't want escapist, "fun" movies
Logical Flaw: Thinking there is only one tone or mode of fun or escapism. I have lots of fun watching movies like BvS, putting all the pieces together in my head to understand the layers.


>Underestimating what kids are interested in
How does he do that at all?
Man you are a flaming faggot.

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>>93879354
>>93879483
>>93879539
>>93880912

Marvel.
Made a movie where the viewer is explicitly informed that planet fucked at least 1 female of every sentient species in the universe and killed a protaganist's mom with brain cancer...whom said planet also fucked.

I repeat, because somehow, someway, this cannot be understated enough but whiny assholes like OP still do this every fucking day of the week here:

>A Planet.
>Banged.
>A quadrillion different species.
>And gave one human in particular brain cancer despite the fact that "he loved her too much to leave her" because he was that fucking egotistical.

>But not all marvel's movies are like that!

Look here, Bitch....
Tony Stark's first canonically-listed act of business in the MCU (if we're going by film release date) on-screen is gambling, followed by sex with a reporter who develops a personal vendetta against vigilantes (trolls Scott Lang into getting tazed) and the avengers in general (since stark is one of them) after Iron Man 2.

Bruce Banner gets cockblocked by his own Hulkosis. (He underhandedly whines about it when he first meets black widow in Avengers when he rocks the cradle.)

In IM 2, tony jokes to pepper about wanting to get hit with a sexual harrassment suit (because of Black Widow), pisses in his suit when piss drunk and outright makes a public ass of himself to obfuscate the fact that he's dying so Rhodes and Pepper would take over if he died. (which would have been excessively dark hadn't tony gotten blocked by fury.)

In Thor, Loki frames the frost giants in order to ruin his brother's coronation, then frames Laufey (committing Patricide in the process) in order to have a pretext to commit mass Genocide.

All of this is still in phase 1 and somehow people still meme about "quips" and "being just for kids" because they are butthurt for whatever personal undisclosed reason, so they will fabricate reasons to hold it against the MCU that ultimately hold no ground.

>>93891707
>>93891062
are you retarded? Superman has never ever intervened in political conflicts that didnt involve literal super powers/weapons. This is like a core tenant of Superman, which you would know if you read comics. So of course he wouldnt save a CIA agent breaking a peace treaty. And of course he would save Lois Lane because she had every right to be there, and taking her hostage violates the geneva convention (which Superman DOES uphold).


>but anyway this is all to cause Supes to come to a hearing and face consequences of actions he never did

No it wasnt, it was about tranishing his image to the public (and Batman) and not give him a chance to give his side of the story (while adding to the idea that his very presnece brings death and destruction).


It has to suck being as obtuse as you.
>btw the we'll never know how Lex realized Bruce is Batman


Just like how in the comics we never find out how President Lex found out Superman's identity.


>he's getting minatory letters from dead people

What? Are you really THIS retarded that you think because a guy died, on screen, in front of Bruce, that he couldnt possible have sent the letter before hand? If anything the letters add motivation for the bombing.

Holy shit you are just so dumb, how do you even live a normal life? Do you even live a normal life? Are you on assisted living?

>>93894460
But none of that is given gravitas or weight, its just brushed off with fucking jokes or not even acknowledge at all (like the Ego thing, literally no one in the movie points out how really fucked up it is).

>>93879354
>So why do the MCU films get away here with being so childish while the DCEU gets shit on for approaching more mature topics?

Your points are so subjective you shouldn't even be trying to start a discussion. Your bias to DC comics and your obvious hatred of Marvel because of their success compared to DC makes your argument week.

Both Marvel and DC make their movies for the widest audience possible BEAUSE THEY LIKE TO MAKE MONEY. Movies like Deadpool and Logan are exceptions, but overall, the superhero genre caters to as wide of age range as possible in order to make money back on the huge budgets they have. How you don't understand this is stunning. Marvel puts humor in their movies because people who are not comic book/movie fans respond to it.

Ever been to a party and there was one guy that had a sense of humor and one guy that didn't? Who would most people rather hang out with? THE GUY WITH THE SENSE OF HUMOR.

You go to a party to have fun. You go to the movies to have fun. See where my point is going?

>Marvel's shitty new comics

Your tears are so delicious.

>>93894609
>like the Ego thing, literally no one in the movie points out how really fucked up it is
"I need someone in the movie to point everything out to me in retardedly overt fashion or it doesn't count."

>>93880129
>implying redditors like you don't love "fine dining" to pretend they are cultured wasting money on food

>>93894791
way to create a false straw man, ignore the rest of the post, and not in anyway actually engage with my point. And nothing in the movie gives that part any kind of weight to it. Its literally just part of an exposition dump and never mentioned again. Not a single character reacts to it in anyway real negative way, except for Peter getting angry over his dead mom. Otherwise no one gives a single shit.


Come on, try having a real argument instead of just being a memeing piece of shit.

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>>93894609
I think you're confusing "gravitas" and "weight" with "beating people over the head with a morose tone that could not possibly be understood as subtle."

Tony watched people he was bonding with die right in front of his eyes, then when trapped in a cave, he watched another person die and had his original "playboy lifestyle" damaged to the point of nonexistence since his soul was crushed by the process, but the film doesnt spend a whole runtime of people talking down to stark to give him life lessons that deny him a voice of his own like MoS did to Clark/Kal.

There's no overt cliche snyder-style pandering there, either. characters talk to each other and have defined personalities. You're not relying on source material external to the films to fill in the blanks, you are learning them from the present universe on-screen portrayals, which do require them to speak for themselves and have dimension, personalities and the ability to emote. Not everybody you know frowns 24/7 and grey/brown/black aren't the most prominent colors on earth with muted tones on every other color.

The word "Artificial" implies "unnatural" and what the MCU has down to a science is an understanding that people have tendencies to behave like natural people in environments with other people. They aren't automatic "wisdom preaching dispensaries" and are allowed to have more than one motive in life and other ideas, dreams, goals and needs/wants that can be seen through their actions which make them feel natural and relatable. Not just "woe is me, I don't know what to do, let's hear a speech." (and do you remember that Twitter bot, "Tay" that MS made on twitter? Yeah, look at what happened to that and look at Ultron...and you asshats thought Ultron was poorly done despite the fact that Ultron was exactly that, what would happen to an AI when exposed to present-day bullshit on the internet.)

Nobody needs to go further out of their way to point it out, that makes it droning.

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>>93895090
Good post.

OP is cancer and an annoying crybaby companywar faggot.

>>93895090
Man you sure created a hell of a strawman and made up points about things I never even mentioned.


And no, your example doesnt work because none of those people that died are ever brought up again in any fashion. Their deaths do not matter at all to the plot. The humvee blowing up or not blowing up would in no way change the story and has no effect on anything. It is just a way for Tony to be captured. Even the guy dying in the cave is just used as an extra morale boost to Tony and then never brought up again.


Your whole second and thirds paragraphs are completely non-relevant to the conversation and are making points without any evidence to support them and are attacking things that no one brought up but you.


>>93895205

Both of you are insane.

>>93895090
I think you are making up a lot of bullshit to argue about completely different points.
And that guy is right, none of that shit is given any weight at all. Its just glibly moved on from.
Show me where any of what was mentioned is given weight. Go on, actually give me a scene or example.
Also give me examples for any of the other bullshit you said. Literally any of it, I'll wait.

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>>93894881
>>93894881
The only thing you're doing now is inciting an argument when you moved the goalpost.

had you stuck to your guns, you might have actually found some semblance of a point to make, but to put it simply "You moved."

I'm sure it's easier for you to come at some other poster sideways and dog at an invalid point in a tangent born from your own goalposting, but keep your eyes on me.

>>93894791
This is not me.

>>93894460
>>93895090
This is me. You answer to anybody else and I'll put you back on course just so you and the rest of the thread know I can see you trying to sneak out of your original position because you know it doesn't hold ground. Not going to Put up trips just so you can filter, so deal with that when you inevitable pull a "I was pretending to be retarded" or "took the bait" bullshit.

>>93895495
How did I move the goalposts? Explain it.

You did. This whole conversation was about moments having weight or not and you didnt address that shit at all and instead started talking random shit about people "acting like people" and not giving any examples.


How about give an actual example for once.

>>93895495
Dude you are absolutely insane, none of what you said makes sense. How did THAT guy move the goalposts? Where? Quote and point it out you blabbering fool.

>>93895495
>>93895090
>>93894460
>/co/ is now full of people that post incoherent bullshit like this and then REEEEE when they get called out on it


I miss old /co/

>>93895495
what the fuck.... dude that guy wasnt even replying to you. These anons were >>93895225
>>93895285
How do you fuck up so hard?

>>93895285
>none of those people that died are ever brought up again in any fashion.

Not only can I call bullshit, but you'll still goalpost after every instance.

Tony flat-out references the soldier deaths in IM one during the press conference, but the film doesn't turn it into a darkwashed mess. He recounts his experience to the press,
>Right before he immediately announces that he's shutting down the weapons manufacturing division.
So, ....what the fuck are you talking about? Clearly it isn't weight or gravitas, because that was a character decision on stark's part because he felt guilt and remorse over his own lack of (in his own words) "A-C-C-O-U-N-T-A-B-I-L-I-T-Y"

If that wasn't enough nuance, Yinsen actually appears in the beginning of Iron Man 3 during the flashback at the Bern Conference he mentioned in Iron Man 1...an Stark himself narrated the opening and end of the movie just to be sure you'd get the message that he never forgot things that he did in the past, such as ignoring/dissing Ho Yinsen just to get laid. Re-watching IM1 after absolutely smacks of tony being completely disingenuous until Yinsen actually makes a sacrifice play.

This is no longer turning into a matter of whether or not you're looking for weight or gravitas, it's whether or not you can grasp with nuance, subtlety or have any sort of attention span that keeps you from remembering is Scarlet Witch's hair is Black or Red.

And the other statements do have meaning that you want to ignore. The "serious" tone you think is in the DCEU is inauthentic droning of the ideas the producers want beaten into viewers who are less attentive to get subtle messages. For example - Some are clueless to the fact that Loki killed his own Father in Thor since it's only ever mentioned the once and Loki doesn't harp on about having issues with his words. Because his character acts on his motives instantly and doesn't reveal his schemes at all. His actions do all the talking for him.

>>93895556
>>93895589
>>93895633

Look at this patethic samefag.

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>>93896356
I'm not samefaging, you insane cunt. The second post that you linked was my only one on this thread.

>>93881922
Just because something may not be suitable for younger audiences, doesn't necessarily mean it's mature.

>>93896284
>being mentioned once and showing up means their deaths had actual weight

Dude their is no nuance or subtlity here. These are things that are smacked right in our face, but these do not equal weight at all.


I admit I was wrong about saying they were literally not brought up agian, you proved to me that each of them were brought up exactly once. And one was used to make a joke.
Also, please point to the actual quote/post where I move any goal posts ever.
And just saying "look, look at all this subtlety!!!" doesnt mean anything if you cant actually point to it. All youve pointed to are, like I already said, things that are thrown in our faces. You even mentioned how the movie goes to lengths to make sure we understand the references.
And no one, in our conversation, has mentioned the DCEU but you. Stop being so paranoid and going on unrelated tangents.


>Because his character acts on his motives instantly and doesn't reveal his schemes at all. His actions do all the talking for him.

What? Did you miss that whole scene in Avengers where he reveals his plans?

>inb4 but he meant to do that XD

So what part of his actions are informed by him killing his father? Like actually point to an action that illustrates his feelings about the death of his father.


You dont think its a problem that "Some are clueless to the fact that Loki killed his own Father in Thor" ? This is a big plot point that people should easily understand...

>>93894460
>>93895090
>>93895495
>>93896284
It's been almost a solid year since I've seen you, Quilty.
Being tripless doesn't mask your posting style at all.

Not sure why you're on /co/, though. Getting involved with
company wars is pretty beneath you, isn't it?

>>93896477
Wait, if the second post is from you, shouldn't there be a "(you)" on the reply?

>>93896284
Please, point to where he moved the goal posts. I'm still waiting.

OP here

I was actually just making a bait post

>>93896586
The guy is insane, you can tell from his posts
>>93896284
>>93895495
>>93895090
just ignore him

>>93896659
Except that the screemcap is from the person arguing with him.

>>93896586
If you look closely, you can see the mark where he tried to erase the (you).

Its very obvious a shitposter snydercuck from /tv/ samefagging.

>>93896692
thats how insane that guy is, ignore him

>>93896477
>screencaping for op denial
You do realize that nobody does this anymore, right? I can bust open MS paint and give every other post a (you) by copypasting the same way I can remove a (you) by copypasting a blank space over it just to cover my own ass the same way if I needed it.

It could be done under 30 seconds.

>>93896584
The worse question is why do you go to /v/ and what possible reason could you have in remembering such an obscure trip that I rarely ever use?

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>>93896477
>>93896586
>>93896727
Holy shit.

>Claims to not samefag
>makes a SHIT edit to try to prove that you arent samefaging

P
A
T
E
T
H
I
C

>>93896727
>Its very obvious a shitposter snydercuck from /tv/ samefagging.


what? If anything he is a fucking marvelcuck from /tv/

>>93896477
Nigga, you forgot a red dot where the (you) should be.
>only movie faggotory open
Waste of dubs.

>>93896899
Pretty sure that is OP. Unless you are doing an advanced form of trolling now and you are OP too.

>>93896899
I think that you should read the thread again.

>>93897024
>>93896972
op is obviously a snydercuck, but the guy who was samefagging was a marvelcuck

>>93897098
But he is defending OP and arguing with the other guy?

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>>93896599
>in OP
>So why do the MCU films get away here with being so childish while the DCEU gets shit on for approaching more mature topics? A being like superman wouldn't be happy-go-lucky all the time in the real world. Meanwhile, the new spiderman doesn't even punch anyone. Batman kills people, big woop, policemen do that all the time. Less than a dozen fatalities during The Battle of New York? Give me a break.
Intent of assertion: DC approaches mature themes and get negative reception, Marvel Is lighthearted or does things that are glossed over and get no negative reception.

Regardless if op is the same person I responded to or not, the post that followed/responded was in support of OP's position/stance.
>>93894685
>But none of that is given gravitas or weight, its just brushed off with fucking jokes or not even acknowledge at all.
Deflection and Adjustment to account for oversight in initial statement, A.K.A. "Moving the Goalpost."

>>93896538
>And just saying "look, look at all this subtlety!!!" doesnt mean anything if you cant actually point to it.
.... did you read this before you posted it? Not taking potshots at you, but read this aloud and see if you can spot the moment where you made the mistake.

>>And no one, in our conversation, has mentioned the DCEU but you.
In our conversation who is all included? Who did I target first?
>OP
Is "DCEU" in OP's post?
>Yes.
You have a problem, your 'voice' is legion here that is blending in suddenly with a bunch of Anons who are suddenly bandwagoning your "mindset" without citing a unique justification with a varied point of view, (making many anons plasibly just you pretending to be other people) so in this instance, you might want to get a tripcode so we know who is who here.

Clearly people can tell me apart from the horde of potential (YOU)'s.

>>93893990
>batman goes back to not killing just in time to not kill the joker
sonuvabitch

I'm actually OP, it was just bait

>>93880424
Whenever I see one of these threads pop up, I feel like I'm the only one who actually does remember most of the MCUs themes. Only one I can't quite recall off the top of my head would be Hulk's and Spiderman's.

>>93881379
>except for the morally simple point, as 99% of the heroes in the MCU don't have any no kill rule, and they display them killing soldiers, terrorists and others without any restraint.
I'd say this IS a pretty simple morality. Soldiers and terrorists are swept away as disposable without further question by most moral systems. Just war theories and self-defense allow for these. But superheroes actively intervene and strike pre-emptively, to the point that they can't be said to be acting just in self-defense. Civil War was about this, in large part. A morally complicated superhero film would have to examine this further.
That's not to say this is 100% correct, as it's up for debate:
>>93880703
>Superheroes are supposed to be better than us. They are an ideal to aspire to. Batman is supposed to be humanity at it's peak. They shouldn't need to kill anyone the way ordinary civilians and cops do.
But this anon has a point. Can superheroes with often-vastly superhuman capabilities follow the same rules as the rest of us? Or do they have to be better?

>>93897538

there actually isn't a scenario in any of the movies where the Avengers pre-emptively kill someone that wasn't an immediate threat.

>>93897856
I know this is cheating and it absolutely is an incorrect response due to the context of the scene, but...
>your statement is factually incorrect.

It shouldn't count simply because the point of the story was that the character had to learn to not be a huge douchebag, but Thor draws first blood on an ice giant, Killing simply for badmouthing him as "princess" behind his back.

It's literally the ONLY instance in the entire MCU. Again, I know the context is a huge technicality that doesn't apply to the point you're making, but that was a moment that thor was not as much a hero as he was just thirsty for a fight and eager for action, not quite yet humbled enough to know what it meant to be responsible, respectful, dignified or understanding of what it meant to abide by oath/rule/regulation

>>93898273

I was thinking more the Avengers as an organization, but yeah, individually, Thor is the only exception

>>93879483
Marvel movies aren't dark or violent.

>>93896538
>Did you miss that whole scene in *Avengers* where he reveals his plans?

Loki didn't kill his father in The avengers, He did it in THOR.
You're goalposting to the Avengers scene where Black Widow conned him for
info like she was doing to the russian in the beginning of the movie.

>So what part of his actions are informed by him killing his father? Like actually point to an action that illustrates his feelings about the death of his father.

You're bending the questions to meet your ends instead of finding the questions that need to be addressed, Question being: "What does his actions say about him?"

In Loki's words, Odin referred to Jotuns as if they were monsters to him and thor when they were kids like it was some creepy fairytale.

As an adult, Loki Initially had no issue with them until he found out he was exactly one of those creatures. The only people aware of it were Frigga, Odin and just moments before Odin succumbed to Odinsleep, Loki. He didn't say a peep to anybody about his grand plan, he just conned Laufey into getting into a position where he could make an excuse to kill all the Jotuns, which in essence would seal away any possibility of anybody other than Odin, Frigga and himself from ever exposing him to the reality of the fact that he knew that he wasn't truly an Asgardian.

There's no hidden, deep subtext behind it. He was absolutely fucked up in the head, feeling his entire life was effectively a Fabrication or just a tool for Odin.

Among all of this, he never once stops to tell anybody "why". He flat-out lies to Thor for his justification to make himself sound valid, then when further pressed, simply says "Why not?" and changes the subject to Thor's change of opinion on them before Thor could figure any of it out.

Loki told Nobody the entire film. He acted out of hatred for learning that he wasn't asgardian and attempted genocide specifically to delete any possibility of knowledge that he was a "monster".

>>93879354
>Can we address the elephant in the room? Comic books and by relation, comic book movies, are not for children.
>Maybe at one point in time they were for children. But they definitely aren't anymore. You can't give a kid King's new Batman and how can anyone say that you can't give a kid a Batman comic if it wasn't true that comics aren't for them anymore? Marvel's shitty new comics aren't even for kids. They are for millennials and people who already identify with politics and those types of people definitely aren't children.

this could've been such a good thread but you decided to delve into company wars bullshit.

>>93896538
>You don't think its a problem that "Some are clueless to the fact that Loki killed his own Father in Thor" ? This is a big plot point that people should easily understand...
I think that it's a problem that some people that lack the attention span to notice something that is plain text in front of somebody's face that's stated only once for clarity.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HpyrXBDtvsI
Then ignored.

Simply because the script doesn't call for absurd amounts of pondering attention to Loki's character needing too much more focus until that moment-because he's not actively being framed as a traditional "villain" in the movie for his path of growth.

On the first showing to most who haven't seen the films or don't know of the source material, anybody would just go and assume that Loki is "Just" Thor's brother, but the Layman with a pitiful attention span don't notice Loki's character turn because they didn't anticipate him to be a villain, leaving that expectation to Laufey while ignoring the on-screen context of Loki's character and wondered "why is he so pissed off again? Why isn't he destroying earth instead/why is Thor trying to save them? That isn't earth, I don''t care if the bad guys die."

None of this was an exposition dump or a labored script full of heavy-handed writing that burdens the viewer with the artificial feeling of dread and despair with muted colors and the "implication" of competent story by having characters force out Shyamalan-style lines through gritted teeth or "implication" of character through imagery with exposition dumps being insisted of the character (without the characters having a statement in the matter.)

Loki acted without revealing. His goal was to be seen as nothing more than a legit asgardian. The only honest thing he says in the movie is "I never wanted the throne, I wanted to be your equal." Which along with the sum of his actions and words to Odin spells out his motivations to those that paid attention.

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Hmmm. I wonder why Homecoming's BO is going down.

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>>93901413
I wonder...

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>>93901481
Ohhhh. Now I get it!