Remember when the Illuminati killed Superman's friends and

>>93065274
Explain

>>93065274
You mean when Namor killed Superman and his friends and then in turn was killed by another Superman and his friends.

>>93065274

I liked how Sun God pretty much one shotted half the team and Strange had to summon tentacles to even the odds. Has Gaiman commented on Strange talking shit and killing his character?

>>93065274
Haven't read this in a long time. The colors are shipped right? He was orange or something I think.

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>>93065274
I miss Sun God and his team. The Norn was so cool.

>>93065310
The Illuminati killed a Justice League stand-in during New Avengers.
>>93065383
Yeah.

I remember the furious and unexpected shit-talking Strange gave to Doctor Fate. Do fans of those guys even have a rivalry?

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loved these niggas.

Dr. Spectrum is alive on 616 still right?

Sauce?

>>93065447
I didn't think about it till now... but the Batman analogue looks kind of a bit like Doom.

>>93065274
I don't really know the context here, but I fucking hate how snarky, nihilistic and bitter Marvel characters have got in the last ten years or so. I blame Bendis, they all sound like extras from Powers or something.

>>93065480
Honestly the nihilistic part is kind of more Hickman's thing.

>>93065418
He wasn't Doctor Fate. He was that DC guy everyone mistakes for Harry Potter.

>>93065274
well we ever see Illuminati in MCU?

>>93065274
>It's been years since the last good marvel event

Remember when Dr. Strange sold his last piece of soul to go full Lovecraft to save the day?

>>93065497

we need to bring the fantastic four back home

>>93065383


It's the red light being cast by the near-incursion. It was always like this as an incursion approached, with the sites of impending impact on both earths bathed in red light.

>>93065274
>Marvel shitting on DC
Why even bother? I like both but this just makes Marvel seem petty as fuck

>>93065497
I fucking hope not.

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>>93065496

Tim Hunter.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timothy_Hunter

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Remember when the marvel universe was raped to oblivion by the Gentry?

>>93065501
Wasn't that all for nothing in the end?

>>93065535
I-is that Demona from Gargoyles on his shoulder?

>>93065543
Isn't he magic-less and fighting people with an axe now?

>>93065566
Last time I checked magic was dying or something and he was weaker.

>>93065527
>Why even bother? I like both but this just makes Marvel seem petty as fuck
DC did similar things. Neither side has a problem with it.

>>93065496
>>93065535
Oh, so that's why he was a kid. Still, though, he wore something similar to the helmet of Nabu and had an ankh motif.

>>93065579
He was weaker since magic has a cost and Strange indebted himself at the point that Wong made a cult for the of people whose only purpose was to pay the price instead of Strange

Also Strange cheated too and created a monster out of the pain he was supposed to suffer for his magic

>>93065496
>>93065535
>>93065418
>>93065618
No basically it is Tim Hunter as Doctor Fate. Hickman just combined the two.

I have no idea if that's what he plans to do if he goes over to DC, though.

>>93065639
Sounds hacky enough for him to do.

>>93065638
Thanks anon. Is the current Doctor Strange run any good?

>>93065488
Yeah, I think you're right.

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>>93065663

>>93065540
What the fuck

>>93065663
I stopped after the first two arcs iirc
It wasnt bad, actually i dont remember why i stopped, i'm probably going to pick it up again

>>93065274

This is sort of a litmus test for STD-induced brain damage.

If people seem to think that the Illuminati are somehow culpable in this issue, I know that their brains have been destroyed by syphilis.

Sad case.

>>93065447

She is. But she will never be used again. Her team disbanded and she's in Limbo.

>>93065497

Nope. Scale is too small.

>>93065535
>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timothy_Hunter

Thank you! That was driving me nuts.

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>>93065579
>>93065566

Yup. Magic was almost destroyed by an otherdimensional army of science assholes called 'The Empirikul' (hur hur hur) so now magic in the Marvel universe is crippled, but slowly healing.

>>93065663

It just ended. I thought it was interesting, but it wasn't the greatest ever. Nice art.

>>93065698

Oh, that's not even all.

>Ersatz Thor gets beaten up by ANOTHER Ersatz Thor
>Doctor Doom gets shot by Hawkeye
>The whole Incursion/End of the universe deal is referenced fairly openly at the end (The Gentry are basically embodiments of cynicism, nihilism and hopelessness)

>>93065527
The point of the arc was to show the Illuminati doing bad things by killing actual heroes, not to "shit on DC".

>>93065639
That wouldn't happen because the Helmet is destined to become evil in Tim's stories.

>>93065841

How can we say it was 'a bad thing'?

The ONLY way to stop an Incursion is to destroy one of the Earths.

"Okay, Superman. Shall we destroy this one Earth now, or shall we wait a little while until it is destroyed anyway, along with OUR Earth and BOTH of our entire fucking universes?"

>>93065540
Wasnt that the Ultimate universe?

>>93065856
>>93065841
Or just "atentintion whoring" writting to sell more comics.
Can't you hear the voices anon? "add characters from the rival company... make thenm suffer... make them die... now an ass shot... I'm shameless... cannibalism maybe?"

>>93065856
Dumbass. That's the point. Superman doesn't compromise because

"There's always a way."

And there was. Doom/Reed/Franklin saved us all.

But at that time, they wouldn't allow themselves to be hopeful. Hickman knows how to write Superman better than current DC writers.

>>93065901

Yes... but the 'regular' "Marvel Universe" was also affected. I don't know about destroyed.

>>93065929

Horseshit. None of them knew what Doom was doing and Doom himself barely knew what he was doing. His 'saving throw' ended up destroying 99.999% of all remaining universes and in the end it didn't even stop the Incursions. And when he had all that power, he used it to make a micro-world to torment everybody he had ever hated.

Franklin and Reed failed to save the Multiverse, too; only after all had been lost, they made copies of everything that had been destroyed.

The JLA failed. Their approach was useless. And if Namor hadn't acted, the Marvel universe would have been destroyed and Doom's shitty little toy world would have been the only reality for ever.

>>93065274
that`s why marvel prominent heroes don`t feel right for me although I recognized that is what some people like, maybe the majority of comic readers?

>>93065954
Exactly. The only way to win was to let it all end and start again, remaking everything.

Imagine giving Rabum Alal's power to Superman, instead of fucking Doctor Doom. The multiverse would be a paradise.

That would be a great event: "What if character X remade the universe?" Oh wait, that's Rebirth premise.

>>93066020

That has nothing to do with the JLA's approach being useless in those issues. They DIDN'T want to destroy anything.

>>93065274

We know Marvel has made some really nice DC counterparts (Squadron Supreme, the Imperial Guard) but has DC made anything similar?

>>93066117
Nothing that sticks.

>>93066117
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hn5d-YUyw0E

>>93065772
>The whole Incursion/End of the universe deal is referenced fairly openly at the end (The Gentry are basically embodiments of cynicism, nihilism and hopelessness)

wtf where?

>>93065772

Strange hasn't ended, Aaron is just no longer on the book.

Is the whole Incursion saga by Hickman worth reading?

If they would've just listened.
Superman would've saved not only his, but their worlds for them as well.

>>93065274
anyone got the original page?

>>93065414
Any chance you could give me an exact issue number? I kinda want to read this

>>93066117
As Marvelfag I say DC heroes are more iconic. Every time some company ripping off superheroes it's Justice League

>>93065319
Namor and Strange, the motherfucking Supreme Wizard begin kill to Harry Potter, Flash and batman with his Culthull spell

>>93067056
I wanna say #19 or 20 of Hickman's New Avengers, though the whole story started in... #16 I think?

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They were too pure for this world.

I always found it weird that Strange brutally eviscerated all the members of the great society for nothing and they didnt even call him out on it, while Namor saved 2 universes and he's suddenly worse than satán.

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>>93067378

>>93065274
Context?
Did they do anything wrong?

>>93065274
I wish I had the skill to photoshop that entire arc to make it legit the Justice League.

>>93065447
I thought this green lantern/ spectrum was supposed to make it to the main universe but has she appeared in anything?

>>93067467
In the build up to Secret Wars, the multiverse began to collapse. Each universe's Earth was attracted by another, and then they collided in events called Incursions.

The Illuminati got lucky a bunch of times, with the colliding Earth being already uninhabited, or by avoiding the collision with the Infinity Gauntlet (but it broke), but eventually they clashed with an inhabited world.

The world was a stand-in for DC, and the Great Society (the Not-Justice League) came to talk to the Illuminati, trying to solve the situation peacefully.

The Illuminati had world bombs, the Great Society had Hope.

They ended up fighting, and the Great Society was winning, until Doc Strange used his Lovecraft powers and killed EVERYONE. Then Namor blew up the world.

>>93065496
>the guy that was ripped off by Harry Potter
Fixed that for you

>>93066020
Yeah, remember the time the JLA made the right choice by not fighting back, and letting Parallax remake the universe?

After all, Hal only wanted to remake the world without all the tragedies.

>>93067577
Namor blew it up after T'Challah couldn't do it himself.

>>93067709
yes, and then everyone turned onto Namor.

>HOW DARE YOU DO THE THING WE PLANNED TO DO, WE CAME ALL THIS WAY HERE TO DO, WE KILLED PEOPLE IN ORDER TO DO, WE KNEW WAS THE ONLY WAY TO SAVE OUR WORLD, AND THAT IF WE DIDN'T DO IT, ALL THE DEATH AND SUFFERING WOULD HAVE BEEN IN VAIN?
>Fuck you guys, I'm making my own band

>>93067758
>SCAPEGOAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAT!

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>>93067758
>>93067577
>mfw they almost had an interesting thing going with Namor saying something about it being their duty to shoulder the burden of killing a world so that their people would live, which is actually a poignant philosophical point when it comes to heroes, sacrificing their own goodness for the sake of other's, but they just threw it out and had Namor just be an asshole who just doesn't give a fuck about killing a world right after

>>93067595
Tim Hunter was just unlucky enough to draw on the same sources. I doubt a random waitress read his comic books.

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>>93067758
>>93067819

I don't think they would have turned on him so quickly if Namor and BP were at the cusp of of Wakanda / Atlantis war the entire time the incursions going on.

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>>93065274
>Mousevel "heroes"

The level of pettiness that comes from the House of Ideas never ceases to amaze me.

>>93067819
That's not what happened though.

Namor shows later that he finds the whole thing incredibly fucked up and hates it. It weighs upon him heavily but he does it anyway because he can see that it's literally the only sane choice in the situation they were in. He pretty much leaps at the chance to redeem himself and fuck over the people who are actually enjoying this world destruction ride when the opportunity comes along.

Namor is legitimately the best character in that event.

>>93068084
https://desuarchive.org/_/search/filename/2ec.png/

bro...

>>93068016
I don't know much about BB but I thought him shouting was supposed to be "end-of-the-world"-tier. Is that not the case?

>>93065274
Who's the hottie with the sexy costume?

>>93068400

It seems to vary.

I like to believe he can control how powerful he can shout

>>93065540

That looks like DC. Or is there another page?

>>93068509
nAMOR

It was Dr. Strange that killed them and faced no repercussions.

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>>93065497
Don't you mean...

THE QUINTESSENCE ?!

>>93065274
Not a fan of how all the blame got shifted to Namor

>>93065274
What got me was how much /co/ was down for it.

The majority really ENJOYED the thought of Marvel heros murdering entire planets.

>>93067277
I think I know why DC doesn't return Hickman's calls...

>>93065497
>No Reed
>No Namor
>No Xavier
Why bother?

>>93065372
and then the idiots stoped strange before he could end the job making him seling his soul worthless also wasnt that a sun eater?

>>93066853
yea aleast for me

>>93065663
Doctor Strange and the Sorcerers Supreme is good.

>>93066117
An arc of Superman/Batman had The Maximums, a group of not-Avengers from an alternate world that turned out to have been made by Joker with a bit of leftover Mixy power from Emperor Joker.

>>93066117
Champions of Angor
The Retaliators
The Maximums
There's also The Americans and all the other Marvel analogues in Millar's Authority

Also Lord Havok (Doom analogue) and his crew showed up recently in the Justice League of America Rebirth.

>>93065852
Yes but that depends on if DC's editors remember that. I mean I guess maybe there's a 50% better chance they do compared to Marvel, but still.

>>93065540
Ha ha endless pain and suffering beyond out comprehension

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>>93065274
I kinda enjoyed Hickman's Bokurano with superheros. Then again I have a boner for most multiverse shenanigans

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>>93070606
Might as well dump all that I can.

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>>93070638
I mean, why not

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>>93070657

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>>93070690

>>93065447
>That happy as fuck J'onnz expy

>>93065691
I should really get back into DC I stopped reading around Darksied War

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>>93070720

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>>93070754

>>93070750
Yeah, the Jovian was cute as hell

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>>93070783

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>>93070811

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>>93070836

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>>93070870

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>>93070905

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>>93070928

>>93066117
During Multiversity there were two Earth's based off Marvel and Ultimate Marvel.

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>>93070961

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>>93070983

>>93070638
>Making fun of friendship hope and love
Man, I don't know why I got angry at that, but I did.

>>93067277

technically, its tim hunter, not harry potter

>>93068947
Lay off the fucking pizza rolls, Phantom Stranger

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>>93071015
Wup, duplicate file detected >>93067358

>>93071029
Love and friendship are nothing to make fun of. It's just making fun of how the Great Society are basically saints and the Illuminati are all "muh dark moral ambiguity"

>>93071029
That's not the actual dialogue. It's been rewritten.

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>>93071118

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>>93071142

This feels dirty to read.

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>>93071170

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>>93071196

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>>93071240

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>>93071281

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>>93071306

>>93071334
I'm the only one here who finds this more depressing than funny, right?

Everyone else has a functioning sense of humor?

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>>93071334

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>>93071354
I can comprehend if you don't find it funny but how is it depressing?

>>93071360

>>93066117
cyborg superman is an evil reed richards

>>93071424
Maybe he finds it depressing because the parody shows how far Marvel has fallen?

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>>93071424

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>>93071518

>>93071516
That makes sense.

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>>93071581

This writer has a lot to live up to when it comes to Marvel event parodies. Mightygodking and Nuzlocke don't have dead spots like whoever does Illuminated.

why didnt they just evacuate the planet to another one in their universe

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>>93071607

>>93071610
Yeah, I liked Muh Phoenix better than this, then again Avengers vs. Xmen was such utter garbage that I felt more pleasure in watching it get ripped to shreds.

>>93071691
> I felt more pleasure in watching it get ripped to shreds.
That's the entire point, just like it was for Civil War.

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>>93071691

>>93071712
I meant that I think Hickman's Avengers is dumb pretentious shlock but it still has parts I like. AvX was completely irredeemable in every degree.

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>>93071792
The worse something is for me to read, the more I enjoy reading something that pisses on it.

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>>931170
>>Ask yourself: "Are these people wakandians? If they're not? Fuck 'em."

Gave me a chuckle there.

>>93071610
>>93071691
Civil War 2 has been pretty good so far

>>93066228
Damn, he was good. Shame it was just a one episode thing.

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>>93071820

>>93071838
>Civil War 2 has been pretty good so far
Because Carol is already a walking parody of the Pro-Reg mentality, there's almost no point in amplifying it.

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>>93071848

>>93071838
Yeah, Carol's war was great.

>Cap listing off all the people who can see into the future
>The running gag of Rhodey not knowing who Carol is.

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>>93071896

>>93068400
he was crippled after he powered up the terrigen bomb

normally yes, his shout should be continent-level at least

>>93071896
>>Cap listing off all the people who can see into the future
over a series of pages, even

>>The running gag of Rhodey not knowing who Carol is.
Describe Carol without mentioning her hair or her eye colors. We DO all look alike to them.

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>>93071923

>>93071848
Damn, wolfman tore that shounen fucker's views apart.

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>>93071967

>>93067686
They should've. Hal did nothing wrong.

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>>93072035

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>>93072077

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>>93072128

>>93072162
I love this parody batman expy

>>93067553
Squadron supreme.

>>93071964
I didn't get to read much of CW2 parody, did they have Rhodey call Carol "Sheva?"

http://marvel.wikia.com/wiki/Sheva_Josephs_(Earth-112001)

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>>93072162

>>93067406
The worst part is that's exactly what happened.

Are these dialogues real? They're not edited by some cringy /co/ guy? Geez.

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>>93072224

>>93072253
It's true. All of it.

>>93072253
kys newfag

>>93072233
The other worse part is that page is better paced than some Marvel comics in the last seven years.

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>>93072264

>>93072253
They're edited. This is actually an improvement.

>>93065488
Well, in this case, it is stated over and over again that everything is breaking down. Everything, including the heroes.
Also Namor has always been 10 pounds of cock in a three pound bag.

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>>93072332

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>>93072400
HAHA time for tentacle rape

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>>93065401
Pretty sweet costume, actually, but doesn't beat the starfield getup.

>>93072449
Damn that's hot.

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>>93072436

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>>93072493

>>93065535
We need more of Books of Magic

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>>93072599

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>>93072726

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>>93072759

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>>93072792

>>93072696
Was the ongoing series ever properly collected? I remember looking for it on comixology a while ago and only seeing the miniseries

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>>93072824

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>>93072867

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>>93072893

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>>93072930

>>93072978
>........are we.....are we...the baddies?

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>>93072978

>>93066228
>Josh keton even did the fucking voice
It's perfect

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>>93073019

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>>93073060

>>93073060
Its hard to believe these are edits.

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>>93073096

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>>93073128
I'm going to call it quits here with the death of best boy because I am fucking hungry. If you want to know what happens next, Namor calls Panther a pussy and blows up the other Earth and then their earth gets destroyed yadda yadda yadda blah blah blah EVERYTHING DIESSSSSSSSS.

If you enjoyed the dump, thanks. If you thought it was unfunny garbage and I was wasting your time, then thanks as well.

>>93073211
Well this thread got me to look up Muh Phoenix and I'm having fun with that so that's a plus!

>>93067577
Was it ever revealed WHY the Earths were doing that. I can't remember if that was ever explained.

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>>93073770
This motherfucker right here. The destroyer of worlds.

>>93073770
Now that you mention it, I honestly can't remember. I stopped keeping up with Hickman's run at some point, but what I recall was a bunch of THE WHITE EVENT and THE BUILDERS and THE EBONY KINGS and YOU CANNOT COMPREHEND. I can't say I have a clear recollection of much else from his run around that time.

>>93073770
The Beyonders were going to use the Molecule Man as a living bomb that was constant across the entire multiverse, to blow it all up in one go, but Rabum Alal Doomused his time machine to kill one early. This, however, set off a cascade effect that resulted in Molecule Men on every Earth being drawn together and setting off their universal kaboom.

As this was pretty much what the Beyonders wanted, they let it happen, but built a Mega AI (the Mapmakers) to find out what was happening with their Molecule Men bombs during the cascade failure. Doom was kidnapping them to make a Moleculebomb to destroy the Beyonders.

The Ivory Kings are another name for the Beyonders. They are the Mapmakers' masters.

>>93071118
>>93071142
>>93071170
>>93071196
Fucking Illuminated

>>93070657
>joyless rider

lol

Good times.

>>93070657
"For the children"

Is she a pedophile?

I'd forgotten how deep in the right Namor was compared to the others.

>>93066484

See the pic included in my original post. His Gentry devoured 'Multiverse 2'.

>>93066507

That's what I meant.

>>93066853

...Barely. Once.

>>93074098
I can't help but think that if the Marvel characters actually sat down and talked a little more they would have found a better solution than world bombs and edge.

I mean there are like how many time travelers and reality warpers?

>>93073770
Writer Fiat. Hickman wanted to have the Illuminati commit mostly guilt-free genocide so he blocked any solution that wasn't world bombs (the Infinity Gauntlet only working once) or didn't have the heroes consider it (world saving plan number 234 that some guy on the internet wrote up involving comic science and magic).

Lots and lots of writer fiat.

>>93072759
I love this page.

>>93070783
Badass

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>>93067577
>Great Society had hope

The sad part is they were right. The Illuminati just bought time with their genocide like rats on a sinking ship. It wasn't a solution, it was a stop gap.

If they didn't kill Superman he would have done pic related and saved everyone (he solved the Incursions way back in his Joe Casey run MAX HYPERCIRIS) But Doc Strange gave into despair and sold his soul to Cthulhu.

It's not like Hickman's point is hard to read Anon.


>>93065856
>How can we say it was a bad thing?

Because fighting to the bitter end down to the last second to save everyone is the traditionally superheroic thing to do.

That was Hickman's point. It's what his Hyperion did (he tried to hold the two Earth apart until he couldn't anymore). His whole point was that the Marvel Heroes weren't actually heroes.

You can make moral arguments for killing one Earth to buy time for another, but you have to understand you can make arguments for other options.

>>93068665

It was one of the universes in the DC multiverse - one that represents the Marvel universe.

>>93069442
>wasnt that a sun eater?

I thought it was Shuma-Gorath.

>>93071029

Because you're not dead inside. Were you saved by Ultra Comics, too?

>>93074487
Reed tried to use Franklin to stop they incursions.
Didnt work either.

Not sure how you can time travel before the multiversal collapse since destroying an universe should destroy its time as well.

>>93072824
was this made by the same artist?

>>93071354

It's meant to be depressing.

>>93072253

It's a pretty famous webparody series. Also did Civil War. And a bunch of other stuff. Sometimes puts it on a bit thick, but pretty much everyone agrees the dialogue is better than the original.

>>93073770

If you kill a Molecule Man, it draws its universe into an Incursion. That simple. And once the process starts, it cascades.

>>93070606
Fuck this is making me sad.

It's like watching The Authority step in and "Nothin Personal Kid" Kamen Rider and Super Sentai.

>>93074652
>you can make arguments for other options

Like letting both universes die. Don't really see how that's a valid option.

I mean, that was literally the only other option. All this sniveling about 'hope' and 'morality' in the face of dual universal destruction... fuck off.

The Great Society condemned everybody in two universes to death with their cowardous refusal to act. The Illuminati literally saved all of existence by ensuring the survival of Reed Richards.

The Great Society contributed exactly fuck-all.

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>>93065274
Remember when Obama Superman and Bugs Bunny saved Captain America and his world and got away with it?

It was real Hypercrisis that they came out around the same time.

>>93072867
>He starts quoting Darkseid

Man I love illuminated

>>93074853
>Literally the only other option

>Five Minutes left to save the world
>Heroes not scrambling to use their magic, powers, and super science to do something, anything to try to save the world even if its a long shot

Bro do you even into superhero stories?

They had enough time do something, even if it was just trying to push the universe back.

They could always go for the Hail Marry like Hyperion did. Which was sort of Hickman's point.

I can't see how you're missing Hickman's point this badly.

>>93074853
>Cowardous refusal to act

Did you miss the scene where Captain America is fighting Tony and calls him and the Illuminati out on their actions being cowardly?

>>93075016
Our Marvel 'heroes', everyone.
Marvel sure is light-hearted.

>>93072223
It's still going, and it's great

http://illuminatingcomics.tumblr.com/

>>93065274
I hated this arc. It's filled with deux ex machinas and plot devices but everyone gives it a pass because the plot devices are used for edgy murder and MUH TIME RUNS OUT rather than solving problems.

>>93066853
It's kind of one-note. The first Sentry mini by Jenkins did a better job of showing the differences between DC heroes and Marvel.

>>93074175
>>93071118
>>93071029
>>93071610
>>93074917
I'd love to see the JLA fight an Illuminated that wants to kill their world because the Gentry promised to spare them if they sell their souls and become their multiverse slaying warriors.

But DC doesn't seem that mean spirited. Multiversity had the DC heroes save Marvel. JLA recently fought not-Doctor Doom and some not-versions of Marvel baddies, but I can't see them fighting not-versions of Marvel heroes.

What I'm trying to say is that it says a lot that DC has never had Captain America get raped to death by Cthulhu while Marvel has raped Superman to death with Cthulhu. It says a whole lot.

>>93075101
They are in the movies because the people that make the movies are different from the people that write the comics and they like making money.

>>93065480
You think with the success of the MCU that the heroes of Marvel comics wouldn't be such cunts. I expect the Ultimates to be dicks, not 616.

>>93072759
kek

>>93070928
>>93070961
>Literally the "Me, women, respect" meme

>>93072759
Does Hickman know that traditionally its been the other way around for DC and Marvel magic?

>>93075016
Both the Illuminati and the Great Society had used every method available to them to stop previous incursions.

The Illuminati used the Infinity Gauntlet, and it broke.
The Great Society used the Wishing box, and it broke.

All that was left was destroying one of the Earths, or both would die.

>>93073019
>>93073060
>Be powerful enough to fuck up the entire JLA
>Stopped by a repulsor blast

Fucking Hickman

>>93075454

>Marvel writers knowing anything about their own universe, let alone DC's

Anon, I...

>>93075500
>They used the two big plot devices and they failed
>They're out of get out of jail free cards

This is what pissed me off about the event. Any solution that wasn't "nuke the other planet" is cock blocked by Hickman for the sake of really forced drama.

Really? Go straight to the nukes after the power glove failed? No reversing the polarity of the Negative Zone? No magic-ing the entire planet into a pocket dimension? No heroically struggling down to the last picosecond (and time traveling for more time?)

I mean yeah, it would be a plot device but the ENTIRE EVENT is a giant plot device. Fight the other universe because MUH TIME RUNS OUT MUH IVORY KINGS ALL HOPE LIES IN DOOM.

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>>93075219
Such is life. Marvel made a name for itself for having more "realistic" heroes. Like Pete Parker was a hero at night but he still has shit like in his civilian identity and what not. And Bruce Banner has incredible power but no control. Well, that just means that some writers like to shove in edgy shit and say "we're more adult, we're more grounded" and what not. It's dumb. I wish we had more DC/Marvel crossovers but that ain't happening since Quesadilla hates DC with the energy of a million exploding suns

>>93075609
To be fair there was a bit where they explain how they had tried several methods more, like cosmic cubes, Franklin using his powers, etc. Also, black swan mentions that some had many had destroyed their own earths to escape the incursions and they had died anyways.

>>93075516
>Marvel Magic is REAL magic
Yeah. Because they didn't explain magic as resulting from beings from different universes with different physical values.

Oh wait they did.

>DC Magic is just quantum woo

Holy fuck did Hickman actually read any of the Vertigo books? Like any of them?

>>93075660
>Handwave other solutions away in a couple of panels.

And boy was that not satisfying.

Why is it that anything not Doom popping Molecule Man and then beating the Beyonders just didn't work? It's such bullshit.

>Destroyed their own earths to escape the incursions

I always wondered why they didn't just do this. Have all the magic people teleport humanity to Midgard/Lila Cheney's Dyson Sphere/Shiar planets/some Dr. Strange pocket dimension and have Thor hit the planet with his hammer.

Exactly how was that not the right solution? Like what killed those worlds that did the smart thing with the Incursions?

Hickman was like the worst DM ever

>Okay what if we-
That doesn't work. You have to nuke the other Earth.

>But what if we teleported-
You can't.

>Negative Zone-
You can't.

>Asgard-
You can't.

>The Enigma Force-
You fucking can't the bomb is your only hope just use the fucking bomb already.

>Can we use the time machine to-
Only Dr. Doom can use the time machine.

>Oh I know! The gauntlet of plot device!
It broke

>The cosmic cube!
It broke to.

>The other cosmic cubes!
They broke. They all broke.

>Fuck. What plot devices are left.
The bomb.

>What keeps breaking our plot devices?
The Beyonders.

>Can we fight the Beyonders.
Fuck no.

>But your NPC Dr. Doom is going to fight them...
And he's five times the level you chodes will ever be. Now use the bomb.

>What if we-
USE THE GODDAMN BOMB

>>93075016
No one missed Hickman's point, it's just a really stupid point.

>>93075868
>I will contrive the most bullshit reasons for the heroes to murder the Justice League and then try t make a point about morality being about hope and vision rather than base survival and existence

>And then it all wont' really matter because the end is one step above "it was all a dream".

Fucking Hickman.

>>93075829
And in the end what did he achieve? Getting rid of all the cool alternate Earths? Trying to make the Illuminati interesting by giving them a forced bad decision?

No seriously, what did this story accomplish? It told us nothing about the characters involved that we either didn't know already or suspect. It told a story with an unhappy ending without any real purpose to doing so.

>>93075016
>Did you miss the scene where Captain America is fighting Tony and calls him and the Illuminati out on their actions being cowardly?

Oh no,I didn't. It was completely retarded then, too, just like every single goddamn thing Cap did throughout Hackman's run.

>I can't see how you're missing Hickman's point this badly.

Hickman's point was that this situation was insoluble. He called it a "horror story". If the heroes had done what you suggested, both universes would have been destroyed, so that is once again retarded.

>>93075908

Oh, it was garbage. Let us not be divided on that.

>Black Bolt saved Dr Spectrum
>Boundless didn't punch into the speed force and survive the incursions
>Squadron Supreme ended before Dr Spectrum and Blur could have a Brave and the Bold team up fighting an insane Boundless who renters reality
Fuck this gay earth

>>93075908
>>I will contrive the most bullshit reasons for the heroes to
Civil War made this acceptable to Marvel readers and it's been standard operating procedure since. And the sales department thinks it's diversity that makes us stop reading their books.

>>93075746
The original secret wars beyonder nearly destroyed the multiverse by himself and he was just a child unit. The beyonders are madly powerful, it sort of makes sense that nothing but their own creation coud stop them.

>>93075977
>Getting rid of all the cool alternate Earths
Don't we still have them in the new Reed-verse except Ultimates?

>Trying to make the Illuminati interesting by giving them a forced bad decision?

Which amounted to nothing because like every "oh shit the hero just did something edgy" that happens in event comics after the event they're totally forgiven as if nothing ever happened.

Except Namor. Who got killed by Hyperion. And then didn't get killed by Hyperion. And is buried in the Marvel toybox forever because his movie is never ever ever.

>What did the story accomplish?
Absolutely dick all.

>>93076004
He called it a horror story because no matter what the heroes did they lost in the end. They bought what, a month for everybody to live before they died?

>>93076075
Doctor Doom punked them like bitches. All the time travelers and guys in tune with the cosmic order in the MU and he's the only one that figured out how to kill them because he's Hickman's waifu.

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>>93076099
the maker has the ultimate u or whatever

>>93076099
They are seemingly bringing the ultimate universe back in Ultimates 2 #100
>>93076161
Honestly I can't wait to see him make his move.

>>93076161
Okay. So literally nothing significant changed.

I think that's the true horror of Hickman's horror story. That nothing fucking matters.

>>93065852
Wasn't that just a possible future?

>>93076188
"What was the situation, what happened and what changed." --Jim Shooter's entire theory of storytelling digested.

Hickman doesn't mind wasting a reader's time and putatively their money.

>>93076188
>You see all these cool amalgamated Earths in Doomworld?

>I sure hope you like never seeing them ever again!

>>93076228
One other thing... The bodycount in Hickman's Avengers and some other stuff like Ultimates is practically over-the-top, right? Why is it that it sometimes feels kind of cheap and empty despite being what changed? Is it just because sometimes it feels like an afterthought?

>>93065372
Being fair: Banner used that bitch-armor, so he cant go full apocalyptic.

But Illuminati was a great run...
>>93065401
Yes, Sungods dead was not cool.

>>93076188
Honestly, I don't understand the point of a multiverse ending threat given how we understand the multiverse works in Marvel. Like every decision anyone makes spawns new universes. There's a universe where the Illuminati didn't mind rape Cap, a universe where Sun God accepted Panther's offer etc. It just makes no real sense. But no, gotta have our big multiverse fights where every thing is at stake because everything dies. I enjoy heroes fight against other versions of themselves and alternate realities as much as the next guy but the overall problem was contrived

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>>93070783
Mathematical...

>>93075746
>I always wondered why they didn't just do this. Have all the magic people teleport humanity to Midgard/Lila Cheney's Dyson Sphere/Shiar planets/some Dr. Strange pocket dimension and have Thor hit the planet with his hammer.

Because when the Earth blows up, the rest of that universe goes with it. Planets, dimensions, microverses, all of it.

They had covered all the bases. Technology can't fix it. Magic can't fix it. Time travel can't fix it. Reality warpers can't fix it. Higher beings can't fix it (also they're dead).

At this point you're arguing against the concept:

What do the heroes do when Victory is simply impossible?

Save their own asses? Double down on ideals and end up dead? Do the unthinkable just for to live a little longer?

>>93076336
This is what the Watcher says before every issue of What If. Hickman would know this if he read one issue of What If.

Hickman has never read What If.

>>93065372
It's weird because Strange is kind of a scrub compared to Dr. Fate.

Strange has to bargain with higher beings for power while Fate has a straight connection to Nabu through the helmet. And Nabu has been shown to be the equal of the Spectre.

A grown up Tim Hunter is supposed to be pure magic. He'd rape the shit out of Dr. Strange AND Shuma Gorath for a victory lap.

>>93070783
>Dr. Fate uses higher dimensional Math
>Dr. Strange uses "lol its just magic"

Hickman you stupid bitch its literally the other way around.

>>93076510
It's a fan edit. Though it's been a while since I read the genuine thing, Norn might have really used mathmagic shit.

>>93076099
>They bought what, a month for everybody to live before they died?

At least a year, maybe more. And, again, if they had not, Reed Richards would have died in the Great Society Incursion and Doom would have ruled Battleworld forever.

>>93076266

Most of them were shit.

>>93076445
Use the comic as tinder, as that's all it good for.

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>>93071848

Why does beast look like fucking Garlic Junior?

>>93067686
What if he did anon? What if...

I mean look at what happened after. Hal died heroically, then he became The Spectre, a position of supreme moral authority and judgement. Then it is revealed that Hal was blameless all along, Parallax was a space demon who posessed Hal, and he's the greatest Green Lantern to ever live. Its an interesting thought experiment to say the least.

>>93075454
Do you know that this isn't Hickman's dialogue you goddamn idiot?

>>93076510

>>93077219

>>93077219
What was it like in the original? Was Norn still a mathemagician?

>>93076551
>Ruled Battleworld forever
Just about every nation was ready to rise up against him.

And lets be honest. A post-Doom Battleworld would have been better than not-reboot Marvel.

>>93077419
Well we saw a Post Doom Battleworld in Contest of Champions, didn't Mastro and Gamemaster fight over who'd rule battleworld?

>>93076445
>Because when the Earth blows the rest of the universe goes with it.

From what I understand (and I might be wrong) its that:

1. Earths are colliding together because Doom killed a Molecule Man while using a time machine. Good reason as any I suppose.

2. When two Earth touch it causes a plot-explosion that destroys the entire universe for reasons.

3. If you blow up the other Earth before it touches both Universes survive but have to keep going in the cosmic Bokurano tournament.

4. If you blow up your own Earth from Asteroid M or the microverse or whatever or are like an alien in a universe where an Earth got destroyed you might think you're safe (Black Swan calls it shading the apocalypse) but you are implied to be killed off screen for reasons.

What kills you if you blow up your own Earth or are an alien in a universe that lost their Earth?


>Arguing against the concept

Well yeah because its a horrific abuse of writer fiat. DO THIS EVIL ACT OR THE UNIVERSE DIES NO YOU CAN'T TAKE A THIRD OPTION ONLY DR. DOOM CAN BECAUSE HE'S MY CHARACTER.

It' a deus ex machina but you don't recognize it because it works against the heroes rather than for the heroes.

A good "what do heroes do when victory is simply impossible" story was the second Gruenwald Squardon Supreme graphic novel. That was good. This was not. It tried to be Bokurano but failed to realize that Bokurano also sucked.

>Double down on ideals and end up dead?

Given how Hickman treated Hyperion and Tony and Cap it would seem to be that this was the correct answer. Heroes only die once. Cowards twice.

>>93077577
What happened to Crystar's army and the Ghost Riders?

>>93076445
>Technology can't fix it
>Time Travel can't fix it

Unless you're Dr. Doom then yes, yes it absolutely can.

Fucking Hickman.

>>93076134
Doom has precedent against beyonders in the first secret war

>>93077631
When Battleworld collapsed, all of the false lives that Doom had created winked out of reality, but Battleworld itself still reminded. I believe they mentioned how it was void of most living creatures (plants not included) and just a shell really, making it the perfect battle ground for the CoC.

I don't remember about the army, but I do know the Spirits Of Ignition from the Murderdome managed to escape to freedom after they brutally killed Arcade.

My question is why does blowing up the other Earth save your planet when everything else can't?

I mean if there's enough force behind the merger to break and Infinity Gauntlet why does the force suddenly stop when the little rock spec planet of nothing breaks?

It's just so forced and stupid. Surely there would have been an easier way to justify Dr. Strange selling his soul to kill Superman? I mean that's what the whole thing was about right? The Illuminati being forced to cross lines (and then having those transgressions never matter unless they're Namor)?

It's like if the solution to stopping a nuclear explosion was to move a pebble out of the way.

>>93070690
This page is gold

>>93077419
>What was it like in the original? Was Norn still a mathemagician?
It never came up.

>>93077611
The problem with trying to be Bokurano is that the characters in Bokurano were children and nobody could do anything against the powers that be forcing them to fight other earths. Here you have super heroes who could do any sort of shit to end the situation without having to go all apocalyptic bomb here and the whole plot goes against the very foundations of the Marvel multiverse and how it operates. A super cosmic threat that wants to destroy the entire multiverse would have to attack every universe and possible universe at the same time and destroy them at the same time, not giving existence time to branch out into possibilities where the threat failed. But Hickman wanted to combine Crisis on Infinite Earths with his Japanese Mangos with his husbando being the most powerful force in the multiverse or some shit. It's just fucking garbage.

>>93077798
Because EVERYTHING DIES

>>93077611
I think it really says something about our capeshit universes that readers expect solutions to be magic'd up. Without writer fiat there's hardly any way for there not to be magic solutions to damn near every conceivable problem. So you either try to cover all your bases and tell the sort of story you want to tell or you say fuck it and ram your story through continuity be damned. People are gonna bitch either way.
Hickman's event was trash though.

>>93078234
There's magic and then there's basic thinking through. A smart story would make sure to have a good portion of its bases covered and not be full of holes.

>>93077993
>>93078234
The thing is when the stakes are literally everything you expect the heroes to break out literally everything to save the day.

To have every alternative to nuke the other planet be "nuh uh'ed" in a handful of panels is lame as fuck.

It should have ended in one of the kids deciding to run out the clock to see if the cosmic aliens would really kill everyone or go LOL IT WAS ALL A SOCIAL EXPERIMENT FAMPAI WE WERE WAITING FOR THE FIRST HUMANS TO DO THAT TO PROVE HUMANS HAVE EMPATHY. I don't mean actually show what happens. Have the kid decide to do that and then cut to black.

>>93077993
Bokurano pussied out. They should have had the kids lose then follow the pilots of the winning universe until they lost and so on and so forth. Arguing that playing the game of the cosmic overlords is the morally correct solution falls flat when you cheat and have a protagonist universe.

Also the plot was contrived as fuck. I mean Madoka levels of contrived as fuck.

>>93078437
I still want to know what killed the "shading the apocalypse" universes.

>>93077611
I assume the Beyonders kill that universe without an Earth, because their whole goal was to destroy the multiverse.

>>93078589
>Do the smart thing
>Get fucked by the Beyonders off screen
>No one else can pull off 616 Doom's Keikaku and beat them

Fucking Hickman

>>93078578
If the Manga writer did what you wanted, it would have never have ended. But that's a pretty good premise. Like playing a video game, you die and you have to follow the actions until they die and so on and so forth. Besides, that's how it ended pretty much. All the kids dead and Dung Beetle and the army dude go to another earth to tell them the rules of the game. I'm also sure that it was a big influence on Madoka.

My inner weeb out of the way, I completely agree. Reed and buddies wouldn't mope around and commit genocide because "yep thems the rules." They would absolutely try everything they could to subvert the path ahead of them. But nah, Hickman thinks that contrived shit equals deepness and that they should lie down and just keep committing omnicide. That's what I think of when I think of heroes like Mr. Fantastic: nihilistic omnicidal maniacs

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Hahahahahaha how the fuck are Incursions real hahahaha Marvel hero just vibrate the other Earth away from your universe like hero just close your eyes and shake hahahaha

>>93070870
dat flash ass

>>93079159
Boundless was a QT. Shame she died. Then again, the Great Society was too pure for this world.

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>>93079143

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>>93079143
>>93078628

>>93079143
I will never get tired of this pasta

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>>93074487
>attempting to negotiate with godlike reality manipulators that already killed the Living Tribunal and nearly every cosmic abstract in existences across spacetime and reality and already planted universe killing bombs in each universe.
Totally a good idea!

>>93074652
That doesn't work. Hyperion already tried that. After a set amount of time have passed, the universes starts to go crazy with catastrophes after catastrophes and eventually both universes dies.

>>93080267
Naw, Hype was hold them apart like a badass, he didn't use Flash's trick of vibrational phasing to make one universe phase through his own. Hype is one of the only things to have actually survived the Incursions though

>>93077673
More like Hackman, am I right?

>>93076897
It's an old as fuck fan theory.

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>>93075016
>Did you miss the scene where Captain America is fighting Tony and calls him and the Illuminati out on their actions being cowardly?
You mean Captain Old Man Hitler that hunted down his friends, mutilated a kid in an attempt to capture the Illuminati and then complained to them about not finding a solution for the Incursion since he was hunting them down and going full Nazi on them?

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>>93075219
Didn't Gentry rape a Superman expy and turn him into his slave after mindbreaking him?

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>>93076450
>And Nabu has been shown to be the equal of the Spectre.

>>93080376
Ultra Comics, yeah.

>Don't read it. Close it RIGHT NOW.

>>93080303
>Hype was hold them apart like a badass,

Naw, you would need Sentry to get back from his space road trip for that plan to work.

>>93080477
I didn't say it worked, but he did hold a universe apart from his own for a little bit before he was cast into nothing and picked up by AIM

>>93080303
Hyperion was in the safetly point between universes. He never took the direct hit of what killed the universes. The aftershock of it still knocked him the fuck out and severely weakened him to the point that AIM were capable of keeping him in their underground rapedungeon.

>>93079271
>the world destroyed by the Gentry in Multiversity was an Ultimate Marvel expy
>the Gentry toil to build the Oblivion Machine in its ruins while feeding on the remains of Multiverse-2
>Ultra Comics saying "YOUR EYE IS THE OBLIVION MACHINE!" is actually directed to the creators of comics, specifically Bendis (Cataclysm) and Hickman (Time Runs Out)

>>93076336
It's Marvel politics. Brevoort hated the Multiverse. So it's probably the entire exercise was to get rid of the multiverse ala crisis on infinite Earth: common sense and precedent be damned.

>>93076450
>And Nabu has been shown to be the equal of the Spectre.

No he wasn't .The Spectre defeated him in Ancient Egypt during the 10 plagues and then finally killed him in Infinite Crisis Day of Vengeance.

>>93080739
What's funny is that once SW ended, we had at least three books dedicated to Multiverse related stuff (Contest of Campions, Web Warriors and Old Man Logan).

>>93080334
>mutilated a kid in an attempt to capture the Illuminati and then complained to them about not finding a solution for the Incursion since he was hunting them down and going full Nazi on them?

Wait, what the fuck happened?

>>93080739
>Brevoort hated the Multiverse
I hate Brevoort but you don't see me having him annihilated

>>93080376

More like rape the concept of Superman and turn him into their progenitor and leader because he exists on Earth 33 which is both inside and outside the multiverse.

>>93080440
No seriously. He fought him pretty evenly during Days of Vengeance and only died because he let Specter kill him to usher in the next age of magic.

>>93080780
>Defeated him in Ancient Egypt

Dr. Fate, not Nabu.

>Killed him during Day of Vengeance

Nabu wanted to die.

>>93076336

But in Hockmams run, they didn't stop the incursions. That was the whole point. Every issue tried to drive that point.

>Everything dies

Black Swan constantly told Reed that it doesn't matter how many Earths they blow up. The final incursion happened. 616 and Ultimate.

For the sake of story, Doom gained access to beyonder power, pieced together what was left and we got Secret Wars/Battleworld

>>93080863
Cho got part of his palm sliced by the invisible woman.

>>93065372
Which comics is this?

>>93076551
I liked the story with the original Guardians and Korvac, Western Marvel (Timely) and Xandar ravaged by Annihilus Wave universe was pretty cool too (although it sucks that Rich and Sam were already dead by then and then Peter and Gamora eventually die too) only leaving the Bakians alive.

>>93081576
The same Invisible Woman who was with Reed all along?

>>93081331
>Dr. Fate, not Nabu

No. Nabu himself (not Dr. Fate) in his physical manifestation was defeated by the Spectre in Egypt.

>Nabu wanted to die.

Because he realized he couldn't defeat the Spectre and the only way to contain him was to allow the Spectre to kill him and get God's (or Michael's) attention so that the Spectre would be reined in.

>>93072400
I wish this version of The Great Society was real.

>>93072400
I would love the shit out of Great Society all ages book.

>>93068016
Black Bolt mumbles in a squeaky mouse voice.

Huh? Come again?

Black Bolt rolls his eyes and mumbles in a squeaky mouse voice.

Namor tries to keep from laughing

FAREWELL!

Man...this shit is really lame to me.

All the heroes are now dark brooding monsters that killing more people than 99% of their villains.

Comics are pretty shit today.

>>93065772
>>93065540
Aren't the Gentry DC enemies?

Where can you read stuff with them? Aren't they like incomprehensibly powerful?

>>93082787
Constant universe reboots and the writer rotations will do that to any work.

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>>93082787
You just have to know which ones to read anon

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>>93079143
>just close your eyes and shake

>>93065741
>But she will never be used again.

You don't know that.

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>>93065741
>She is. But she will never be used again. Her
team disbanded and she's in Limbo.

Don't give up hope, anon. She may appear in something else in the future. I didn't give up hope for Mania. And now look! She's going to be in a big event written by her creator.

>>93068947
Holy shit when did Ganthet become that swole