https://www.google.com/amp/comicboo k.com/anime/amp/2017/06/

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>>93063542

>you can't criticize something except if you made it

I guess criticism will never exist ever again

Phil, please. You're a likeable legend. Don't say dumb shit.

>>93063542
>you have no right to say that the food tastes bad if you're not a chef

>>93063542
> LaMarr said, referring to the show’s critics.
>"It’s what Genndy wanted. You wouldn't say, 'I think the Mona Lisa would be better if she just smiled. Come on, Da Vinci, lighten up. Go in and redo it.’”
that's pretty reasonable and well spoken

shut the fuck up with your bad food analogies /co/

>>93063542
>LaMarr said the show never belonged to fans or critics. All that mattered, he argued, was that creator Genndy Tartakovksy got the ending he had been waiting more than a decade for.

If that's true then why did Genndy just write it down read it to himself and call it a day? Why show it to fans if their opinion of the show never mattered?

>>93064843
This. Anyone who complains about the finale is a spoiled, entitled brat.

>>93066008
because he was expressing himself and not some 4chan autist?

It's the eternal conflict isn't it?

You can make the argument that creative writing and directing are form of art, that belongs to the creator, so his judgment and his desires are the ones that need to be fullfilled.
But they're forms of art you're selling, giving to an audience specifically for the purpose of entertain them, and if there's a good portion of those you made it for that aren't happy, is it fair to held them at fault?

>>93066008
Because settling for less is gay as fuck.

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>>93063542

>>93066032
I wouldn't take it that far. But again, this is Genndy's story and he told it like he wanted to. I honestly don't like people who propose their original headcanons believing them to be superior to the original because they do seem like spoiler brats to me.
>Yeah, I've never worked on animation or writing, but I can totally do better
They just seem puerile to me. I personally enjoyed all of season 5, but it can be criticized.

>>93066048
They watched it anyway; so it the business was complete.
The best you can do is share your personal idea of how the story should go despite what other people think, and letting them decide for themselves whether or not your work is worth dedicating it time to.

>>93066070
So what if a professional writer, like Joss Whedon who has had immense success, far more than Genndy, came in and levied the same criticisms at S5 the detractors have? Would Joss then validate the critiques?

>>93066048
>is it fair to held them at fault?
Yes, because they have zero right to complain about your vision if they got it for free, as is the case with cartoons. Furthermore, true fans will accept the fact that a creator told their story regardless and be happy for the artist, even if they themselves would have done things differently.

All the threads shitting on Samurai Jack on /co/, Reddit, Tumblr and other sites shows how immature and selfish most fans really are.

>>93066091
>True fans
Ah I see you're a true Scotsman.

>>93066089
Not quite. Because that still doesn't take away from the fact that he didn't create it, he's just adding on top of what's already been done. The original creator has a vision of how they want their story to work out. They're human, of course, but unless they admit they made a mistake, those criticism, despite being possibly valid, are still unfit to the original author's idea.

>>93066111
This can be easily remedied by analysing what the intent was and if the execution fulfillednthe intent.

Season 5 was supposedly billed as darker, more mature, a story about an old Jack seeking redemption. Most of the season was about Ashi and what little redemption and renewal there was was rushed. If Jack stayed the cipher he was in S1-4, that would have been fine, but this was supposedly billed as his story, not his and Ashi's.

>Make a product for a specific audience
>Said audience doesn't like it
>"Well, last I checked, we didn't ask for your opinion!"

Come on, Phil, you're smarter than this. Just accept it was a crappy ending.

>>93066132
Except Jack's redemption was still an important part. It wasn't until episode 7 that he gets on the right path to redeeming himself and not until 8 that that redemption pays off when he realizes he's able to be hopeful again, and furthermore, afraid of being hopeful again.
Ashi had screentime, but every action she partook in was related to Jack's past, present or future somehow. You could argue that Ashi's development contributed greatly to Jack's development. It also added her some characterization so we would come to sympathize with her and come to see what Jack appreciates about her. In that regard, they succeeded in my eyes.

My point is that Jack is still the center of the entire story. Every scene either stars him or has someone talking or thinking about him.

>>93066155
I feel Genndy made it more for himself than the audience. You kind of have to admire that mentality of sticking to your guns and creating the story you want instead of the one everyone is asking you for.
Whether that's selfish or not, I won't comment on, but it's still an admirable trait a lot of creators lose along the way.

>>93066165
Nothing Ashi did, except the time portal, could not have been achieved by an existing character like the Scotsman. He could have easily given him a pep talk, hung out with him, etc. Shown him the good he did all the while fighting through the land.

Ashi is superfluous. Adding a new central character in the finale season rarely works because you already have previously established characters to do the job.

>>93063595
The thing is, fans aren't critics. A critic is able to step back and judge a work as objectively as possible, and they understand that while they may have issues with the finished product they ultimately have no real say in the creators process and only hope to illustrate issues the work had for other storytellers.

Fans, on the other hand, are too heavily invested in the story to look at it objectively, so any deviation from their own personal headcanons is a "wrong", even if it's what the creator themselves wants. To a fan, death of the author is something to be embraced even before the work is finished, and a creator who takes zero effort to appease the fans is "bad", for whatever that is worth.

>>93066091
>if they got it for free, as is the case with cartoons
cable costs money. airtime costs money. SJ wasn't a donation to the masses, it was a show like very other.

>>93066223
And many of the fans criticized the pacing issues present. A critique that is used by many professional critics on many a movie that then other critics disagree with. How does this nullify the criticisms made by fans? Because they are invested? If the disinterested critic and the fanboy both have the same opinion of a work, is the critique null and void, or valid?

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>>93064843
>unironically likening a fucking cartoonist- and not even a great one- to Leonardo Goddamned Da Vinci
>reasonable
>well spoken

>>93066209
The thing is that the Scotsman is not subtle. At all. He's too loud, and unfortunately for him, too funny. He'd just ruin the mood the season established. Just look at his death scene, even that was hilarious.

Besides, Ashi's past makes her switch to good all the more meaningful. She's the purest result of Aku's dominion over the Earth, both in a metaphorical and physical way. By having that be what saves Jack after his own inner goodness saves her makes the transition much more significant.

>>93066223
Anyone with critical thinking skills can make their critique. It's unfortunate that most fans lack that capacity, but that doesn't invaldiate their opinions entirely, nor does it invalidate those few with well thought out critiques

>>93066265
The season was done with it's darker mood by episode 4. It took another dip in episode 5 but was quickly back to it's light-hearted ways afterwards

>>93063542
I love Phil, but "you couldn't do it so you can't judge" isn't a valid response and he knows it.

>>93066260
Despite whatever your opinion on jack S5 Genndy is one of the great modern cartoonists. Whether this is all the more indicative of the poor state of the medium is another issue.

>>93066279
Should I remind you about Jack's suicide attempt in episode 6?
Or about how he stained his hands in the blood of innocents in episode 7?
The sexual tension and allegories in episode 8?
Ashi begging for death in 9?
And of course, the bittersweet ending in 10?
The season's dark tone prevailed all through its course; it simply relied on other sources aside from blood and violence.

>>93066265
Ashi is still there for her own sake after ep3. The Scotsman could have been used as a standin for the metaphor and literal embodiment of Aku's corruption by still aging, and by his humor becoming more nihilistic and dark, but it then prompting a fight between Jack and Scot precisely because they suffer from depression but deal with it in different ways. This, in turn, spurs Jacks selfreflection and goes to purify his spirit which then inspires Scot and gets him back to his old jovial BAGPIPE PLAYIN CELTIC MAGICIN WAIFU BREEDIN self.

There, it has roots in things previously established and a character arc that is not done with a character inserted into the very last season, with little to no chance for filler.

>>93066292
To be fair, his personal views on the season might have stained his judgement since he seems to have really liked it. Add to that that Genndy is his friend (I imagine), so he feels a need to defend him.

>>93066292
Ironically this is one of the situations where everyone and their mother is saying they could in fact do it better

>>93066260
Why not? The principle stays the same. They're both creators.

>>93066305
I take that in your version the Scotsman can walk nor does he have any children either.
The Scotsman humor, despite changing its view making it more nihilistic, still relies on him being bombastic, loud and rude, the complete opposite to Jack. Perhaps you could have made it work, but it would eclipse Jack much more than Ashi did. Everyone loves the Scotsman because he stole the show in every appearance he had. If people are now complaining about Ashi just imagine what would have happened with him around.

>>93066301
>Should I remind you about Jack's suicide attempt in episode 6?
Lasted all of five minutes, with absolutely no explanation as to the nature of the ghost thing driving him to it.
>Or about how he stained his hands in the blood of innocents in episode 7?
Cartoon goat mutants in a flashback. Hardly a "dark" scene
>The sexual tension and allegories in episode 8?
Played up tremendously for rather terrible humor
>Ashi begging for death in 9?
Valid, but did not prevent humor entirely, as we see from Aku cracking jokes during the whole fight
>And of course, the bittersweet ending in 10?
The ending is a can of worms I'd rather not get into, but suffice to to say the same mood could be accomplished other ways, like say, through a heartfelt goodbye to a close friend who would be erased from existence by your actions

The scotsman could've existed fine as part of most of the season without damaging the tone; the show wasn't terribly committed to being dark beyond those first three eps

>>93066338
Oh no, he's still old and feeble and still has his daughters, this serves to illustrate his resolve, weakened though it is.
And the Scotsman need not be bombastic at first, that is best left for his recouperation from depression. But where Jack breaks down now and again in loud ways, the Scotsman lets ou pressure by cracking dry jokes and still serving insults, these having a more venomous edge to them.

Eps 1-3 are the same, 4-6 deal with Jack and Scot and their mental recovery, 7-10 deal with jogging the woeld and assembling an army.

seems /co/ doesn't understand how time travel stories work.

>>93066234
It was functionally free because you as a consumer did not pay for it directly. You didn't give Genndy your money specifically for Samurai Jack, you received it as part of a general deal between you and the cable company where it was included.

>>93066309
>everyone and their mother is saying they could in fact do it better

Because they probably could. Seriously, what I know about writing could balance neatly on the head of a pin, and even I could tell that Ashi was a mistake.

>>93066338
People largely complain about Ashi because she's new. The scotsman would not have that issue. There may still be complaints about him drawing too much attention from Jack, but a large amount of dissenters would be silenced simply because scotsman is already a well liked character

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>>93063542
I don't hate the ending, but I think its execution was flawed. There was too much too happening all at once, the audience doesn't have a chance to let go, be it a small moment of Jack saying goodbye to his friends or a final kiss for Ashi before fading away. To put it in a bandaid, the pacing already left people unsatisfied, this was like ripping off a bandaid and people felt assblasted over what was supposed to happen from the beginning.

>>93066358
We're not discussing the execution of the scenes, we're discussing about the darker tone of the new season. And in that regard, I'm right since you've had to resort to a completely different discussion to try and prove me wrong.
But anyway.
>Lasted all of five minutes, with absolutely no explanation as to the nature of the ghost thing driving him to it.
It was a bit rushed, I'll concede you that, but it still happened. Besides, what more explanation you need? He's a samurai ghost. That's it, there's no real significance to the plot beyond that. You wanted a complete backstory on that?
>Cartoon goat mutants in a flashback. Hardly a "dark" scene
It is a dark scene because it's the start of the descend of Jack down the path that's taken him where he is now. Innocents dead at his hands because he let his rage take over his actions. That's pretty meaningful for a character like Jack, as well as something darker we'de have never seen before.
>Played up tremendously for rather terrible humor
That is your opinion; humor is subjective and I found it funny.
>Valid, but did not prevent humor entirely, as we see from Aku cracking jokes during the whole fight
Because that's what Aku does, he's a dark evil entity with a sense of humor. He balances evil and comedy perfectly.
>The ending is a can of worms I'd rather not get into, but suffice to to say the same mood could be accomplished other ways, like say, through a heartfelt goodbye to a close friend who would be erased from existence by your actions
Yes, it could, but as you've implied, the mood was there, so the dark tone is prevalent despite your counterpoints.

>>93066406
fuck
>to put in a bandaid
i meant ''metaphor''

>>93066385
You know I don't think Ashi was a terrible idea; having the audience reflect upon Jack's effect on the world through the perspective of another is a pretty good idea, and her nature/backstory makes her redemption even more poignant. But it just seems the attempt to get that bittersweet ending through a romance with her was sloppy. I think the character could be salvaged if they just didn't try so hard to set her up for the TTGL ripoff scene

>>93066366
I admit that for an alternative scenario it would have been interesting. Whether it could have been well executed or not, that is another matter entirely. I personally think that it wouldn't have worked that well, but you disagree.
Still, keep in mind that in a wheelchair the Scotsman would be pretty useless in battle besides shooting straight with Jack turning him around.
Also how would you introduce the Scotsman? He still has his daughters whom he loves dearly; why would be be depressed? He's never been one to wallow in self pity, he's always active, especially if he has an army by his side.
You propose an interesting scenario, don't get me wrong, but you need to rethink it a little, get your bearings on how you would execute it. You're just improvising and it shows; put some more thought into it and you'll be able to come up with something better.

>>93066389
So, basically it's just because she's new independently of her character? That just seems like a childish reason.

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>>93066008
>All that mattered, he argued, was that creator Genndy Tartakovksy got the ending he had been waiting more than a decade for.
Of course it fucking matters, LaMarr wouldn't be responding to the criticism if it really didn't matter

For fucks sake

>>93066446
I am improvising, yes, but with previously established characters. This gives much more control over the story, ironically. As I said, the Scot doesn't wallow in self pity, he still fights, he still loves his daughters, but he is losing hope for the same reason Jack is (you could even add a hint of Aku destroying the Highlands and the immense number of daughters being his attempt to keep the Scottish people alive, thus giving reason to the Scotsmans more jaded personality) and coping with it in the Scotsman manner.

As for the wheelchair, we just make it mechanized, make it tank-ish with weapon pockets where he stores extra guns, a bagpipe, and a jet propulsion system for charging (that has limited fuel).

>>93066248
But that's just it: a critique on the pacing is one thing, and it is a valid critique whether it comes from fans or from professionals. However, Samurai Jack has gotten so much criticism regarding the story from the fans, and almost none of it is justified because all the critiques of Ashi and the wedding and all that boil down to one root thought: "This isn't how I would have done it, so it's not good".

>>93066500
But this is the Scotsman we're talking about. He never lost hope because unlike Jack, he's never had a definite goal nor a mortal ground on which to stand. Jack was a very moral person, the Scotsman was willing to cut down a stranger so he could go across a bridge. The Scotsman just wandered from place to place fighting for fun, not for any greater cause. At best, it was Jack's pretense that drove him to fight Aku personally. But he's just the kind of guy who enjoys the world Aku created despite hating Aku himself. Jack abhors violence and having to recur to it, the Scotsman basks in it.
He likes his life, unlike Jack.
That's why losing hope is pretty implausible occurrence for a guy like him.

>>93066414
>It is a dark scene because it's the start of the descend of Jack down the path that's taken him where he is now. Innocents dead at his hands because he let his rage take over his actions. That's pretty meaningful for a character like Jack, as well as something darker we'de have never seen before.
Okay, sure. I say it was a very weak attempt at a dark moment but I'll admit it's more than the rest of the series, sans the daughter murders
>That is your opinion; humor is subjective and I found it funny.
Regardless it was played up for humor, showing the dark/serious tone was not important
>Because that's what Aku does, he's a dark evil entity with a sense of humor. He balances evil and comedy perfectly.
Again, the point is the show is not committed to being relentlessly dark. Humor can co-exist with it.

My whole point is that the scotsman's humor can exist in this "dark" season, because as is apparent, the season wasn't actually all that dark. More than previous seasons, but still welcoming to typical Samurai Jack style humor.

Also:
>Besides, what more explanation you need? He's a samurai ghost. That's it, there's no real significance to the plot beyond that. You wanted a complete backstory on that?
Anything, anything at all. When he started haunting Jack, why he wants to deceive Jack into thinking he's failed, anything. We see he's straight up lying to Jack so it's implied he has his own motives, but then he's defeated and his buddies just vanish and we never understand what they were doing bothering Jack in the first place. Were they manifestations of Jack's self doubt? Why were they real unlike blue Jack? Were they their own thing? Were they agents of Aku? Actual angry ghosts? Why the fuck do they want to stop the one guy who can kill the big bad that destroyed japan then?
It just seems like Genndy couldn't decide whether he wanted Honda's ghost or blue Jack to represent Jack's issues and just put in both, and one suffered for it

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>>93063542
IMHO Ep1-3 were great. 4 Turns it dark and somewhat the low point (think Jonah in the whale) then by ep 5 Jack shows Ashi what is wrong with the world but its still dark. Ghost fight felt meaningless (would have been cooler to be the spirit of the sword) but by the time he goes back to find the location of the sword that ep was brilliant. The entire mood of the season shifts.

>Whats next
>Find my sword

>whats next
>find aku

Its like they ran out of ideas and time so they sped up the ending to get to the end. I enjoyed the romance but it felt forced. 3 more eps would have fixed that. Otherwise I have no real complaints about the season. Ive watch it forward to end and end to forward. For what its worth, this is the result we got. Genndy got lazy or wanted a GL ending. Whatever the intention this is what we got. At the end of the day, Jack got home and saved the world. Thats what we wanted to see since it went off the air back in the early 2000s.

>>93066457
>people attached to a children's cartoon have childish reasons for liking and disliking things in it
What a shocker

>>93066522
Hence why I mentioned the Highlands getting destroyed, it creates a goal for Scot: get revenge on Aku, and Jack is the one man who can help him.

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>>93063595
Phil Lamar is one of the worst voice actors working today-- his shit always sounds stilted -- he should thank his lucky stars that cartoon network wanted the stereotypical stoic asian trope.On the shit voice actor spectrum, Phil Lamar is a step above Rino Romano.

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>>93063542
This is even worse than, "You've never made a ____ so you can't criticize it". He's literally saying "You can't criticize something unless you're the main creator of it". It's bad enough that he's defending that shit-pile of an ending, but such a weak argument is just unprofessional.
But on top of this, looking at the ending- and all of Season 5- and saying that it is without flaw, and that critics are just stuck-up and are only complaining because they didn't like it and not because of real flaws, is just immature. The whole point of criticism is to point out the flaws in something; if you just disregard all criticism as "haters", you're no better than an autist like Dobson; you'll never improve because you think that the things you like are good and that you have no reason to improve.

Regardless of your opinion on the Finale, and season 5, any reasonable person should be able to recognize that this argument is fucking stupid.

>>93066414
>>93066523
I say the samurai ghost should've been an actual ancestor. By the end of the ep when Jack gains back his resolve we could be shown the ghost is some ancient samurai who failed against Aku and got stuck being bitter and angry for x thousand years. Gives Jack a mirror for himself and a medium with which he could directly make amends with his past. Just five more minutes in that scene could've resolved it, but they were too crunched for time

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>>93064843
I wouldn't even compare Genndy favorably to Leonardo the Ninja Turtle.

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>>93066552
>Shit talking Rino Romano

>>93064843
>Comparing fair criticism to an obviously rushed, flawed cartoon, to saying "the Mona Lisa should smile!"
This is on the exact same level as food analogies, if not worse.

>>93064843
The whole thing is, people LIKED da Vinci which is why no one would tell him to change it. That's how he GOT that status. People fucking hated the ending. If Genddy WAS Davinci he isn't anymore by the same method of him becoming Da Vinci, people's approval.
Fuck LaMarr. Typical. I can't wait for tit beast to get snappy and all her fans to lap it up and defend her to the hilt.

>>93064843

It really isn't.

Writing a story is ALWAYS for the benefit of another person.

>>93066634
Fundamentally wrong but wholly correct in practice. If you're reading a story, it was written for you.

>>93066091

Art is ALWAYS FOR THE BENEFIT OF ANOTHER PERSON.

Without the fans, there would be no final season.

>>93066523
>Regardless it was played up for humor, showing the dark/serious tone was not important
You can go dark without being serious all the time. That's where black humor comes from after all. But in this case, I suppose the mos appropriate term would be "more adult" rather than "darker".

>My whole point is that the scotsman's humor can exist in this "dark" season, because as is apparent, the season wasn't actually all that dark. More than previous seasons, but still welcoming to typical Samurai Jack style humor.

I still don't see it. Every scene he's in has always been played for laughs, even his appearances in season 5. Again, go back to his death scene. That was hilarious. The Scotsman has always been a comedic character, ever since his first appearance. I just fail to see how the series would be able to grasp a tone of solemnity by having him constantly around.

As for the Omen, I liked him a lot. And the ambiguity surrounding him makes him more interesting and mysterious, and thus, more dreadful. Without that aura of darkness he wouldn't have been as memorable.

>>93066548
Alright, then. We have a motive; revenge. But that doesn't mean he's lost hope. He has something to fight for; the reason Jack gave up hope was because he had no home to go back to nor the means to kill Aku anymore. He couldn't even die; he was stuck. Unlike the Scotsman who is a driven individual and who has only known the life Aku's world has given him.

>>93066620
Most people don't care about Da Vinci; they just know he's important but that's it. And in his time he was only well known by a few select individuals; everyone else was too busy working or starving to death to care about art.

>>93066788
Aye, but he never tried to change it, or get even with a god before. 50 years of failing to avenge your people will get anyone's spirit down, and you misunderstand. I am not saying make Scot a blubbering goth, but make him more mean and reserved in his humor, more viper like.

>>93066803
My point is, he's important because of his reputation and public regard. A loss of that would validate criticism as contradictory as that is.
Given Genndy fucked his rep with a shit finale any criticism is fine. He doesn't get/deserve the DaVinci effect.

>>93066818
I know you are not saying that the Scotsman should be a goth. My problem is that the scenario you propose doesn't hold up.
Like, are his daughters coming with Jack and him? You still haven't explained why he's lost hope in a way that makes sense. And how do you integrate his humor, which was basically in the language as well as the way he talked to people and insulted them with a more viper like sense of humor? Perhaps if you provided an example I would be more willing to open up to the possibility.

>>93066829
Leonardo effect.

>>93066581
Audible chuckle

>>93066839
Flora and a few others can come with, be the secondary characters. Scot loses hope for the same reason as Jack: lack of success in what he views as his purpouse (stated above -- revenge). His insults start becoming less oriented around fancy insults (big baby, worm eyed, stoogy etc.) And start aiming more for sore spots (you failure of a wimp of a man. Given all the best advantages in the world like a princess and you still feel sorry for yourself because no one wants to be your friend. Friend with an arrogant prick that plays wi' other peoples emotions. Oh your mummy dint love ya and called you a shite, me heart would bleed if it wasnt cybernetic. Get oer y'self, ya narcissistic little twat and find worth inside yaself.)

>>93063542
That's pretty hilarious. I love how he compares Samurai Jack to Mona Lisa, and how he states that only the creator has the right to criticize a work.

Who's been complaining about the show's finale enough to make LaMarr comment on the criticism, though? I thought it was just /co/ dissing on it, but I don't really follow other sites for cartoons. Has the response been the same elsewhere too?

>>93066956
For once, 50% of /co/ and normies are on tje same page.

>>93066956
Reddit, Tumblr and a bunch of other sites have the same opinion of the finale as /co/.

LaMarr is basically telling 90% of the shows audience to fuck off.

>>93066899
Bringing that many people would just be counterproductive for the story and it would piss off a lot more fans. People here are throwing a fit because Jack had to share screentime with Ashi. And you know want him to share it not only with the Scotsman, but also Flora and some other daughters? Besides, those characters are new and created specifically for the new season. Isn't that one of the reasons why you dislike Ashi?
Losing hope in revenge doesn't sound like a bad idea, actually. But if he's lost in revenge why is he tagging along with Jack? If we're going for hopelessness we should go all the way. Ashi worked off Jack pretty well because he was fairly idealistic and wanted to get Jack going again; if both Jack and the Scotsman are down in spirits I can't really see how much progress they're going to go through.
Also, while those insults are pretty stinting, don't you think it's a little excessive? Jack and The Scotsman are friends after all; that sounds like something a less eloquent Aku would say.

>>93066956
More like people harassing him on twitter over the show he worked on.

>>93067004
Daughters would be secondary chars, not a lot of screentime for them, just there for flavor. Not all of them, too, just some. Scot is a different kind of depressed, the kind that doesnt let it show and is still active despite it, Jack is the more resigned, so they have chemistry based on how different in similarity they are. The insults can be used in general against enemies, and once against Jack, which is what spurs his self reflection. I only gave a grneral example. Sorry for fragmented writing, on phone, not in place that allows for lots of time to write.

>>93063542
Wtf? I hate Phil now.
memes aside, I don't hate the ending but it's not a good endinguy either. Really what saves it is the final scene and soundtrack that goes with it. Especially how you interpret the scene's meaning. But everything after the moment Aku dies is just bad and flawed. That it taints the overall ending.

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>>93064843
>"criticism is wrong and bad"

Samurai Jack was always low tier when it came to writing and it's strength was fighting (even tho there is waaay better animated and choreographed action in other cartoons).

>>93066764
>Again, go back to his death scene. That was hilarious.
I think it was both humorous and inspiring with his speech about Jack bringing. Can't really say how shocking the death was since it was spoiled for me, but to me it seems the character can strike more than one tone. It's all really up to the quality of the writer

>>93067084
Why would you bring in characters such as the daughters of a main protagonist and just keep them in the background? That just seems like a waste, specially if you don't even bother to develop them. And considering we only have 10 episodes, I think you should just scrap them altogether.
The thing is that depressed people are not really movable. They need to be pushed to do everything. Jack is depressed and hopeless, but the shame of dying dishonorably is what impulses him to keep going as well as the tiniest hint of doing something good for the world. The moment he loses that honor after presumably getting those children killed is when he gives up for good. I don't know how to translate that to the Scotsman. We'd have this depressed guy and this grumpy asshole who would go back to just being a dick to everyone else like he was in the bridge.

>>93066818
I think that would defeat him as a narrative device for bringing hope back to Jack. He has to remain jolly if only to contrast jack/remind him Aku can't crush everything good

>>93066178
>One of Gendy's first drawings is that of an asian girl
>One of the inspirations for SJ were his dreams of fighting mutants with his crush in a post apocalyptic future
>Ashi fades away just like Gendy's hopes when he woke up

>>93067133
It was inspirational and funny as hell. That's the Scotsman right there. But in order to gentler scenes, such as convincing Jack out of suicide... It could be very awkward if he tried soft talking Jack and just jarring if he got him out of it just by calling him names.

>>93067167
Then don't. Have him for once have a heartfelt moment with his lifelong friend. He could talk about Jack inspiring him to take the fight straight to aku, he could say how much he values what Jack has done for him, anything. I don't see why it would be difficult to add another dimension to a character the audience already likes

>>93067149
Now we're getting into "let's-write-a-script" levels of detail here. My general idea is that we use existing characters as the focus.

The Scotsman's impetus is his pride and love for his people: he can not let their memory be sullied by him giving up, but the constant failure is getting to him.

Yes, youd have them interact for two episodes as they are now described (interspersed with some sort of humor for balance), only for the second episode to end in Jack finding resolve to gsin inner peace, etc.

Right now you're asking me to plan out every single detail. I can, but it would take time and effort. My intention was to show that with some effort, you could fix the general premise of episodes 4-10. And give it better story potential.

>>93067157
My idea wasn't to have Scot's jollyness bring Jack back, but have his resolve resound with Jack and thus inspire him, because as stated above, Scot had almost the same shit happen to him and yet, despite the depression, keeps on going with greater spirits than Jack.

>>93067221
>Now we're getting into "let's-write-a-script" levels of detail here. My general idea is that we use existing characters as the focus.

And I'm explaining my reasons as to why I believe using already existing characters wouldn't have worked.

The Scotsman clearly likes his people, but he's always been a loner. He stays away from home as much as possible; he spent 5 years without seeing the person he loves the most in the world, for God's sake. What drives him is the fun he gets from fighting.

Right now you're asking me to plan out every single detail. I can, but it would take time and effort. My intention was to show that with some effort, you could fix the general premise of episodes 4-10. And give it better story potential.

The story is in the details. So far you haven't sold me your idea. You keep saying that having the Scotsman around would be much better for the story than Ashi, but I just keep finding problems with your setup.

>>93067236
That sounds like fandwankery to put a popular character in places it would be out of character for them to be by changing the character.

Ashi served her purpose in showing that Jack has made a difference and her redemption is living proof that Jack is still doing good.

If you like the Scottsman, like him enough not to give him the Wolverine treatment of putting him everywhere.

Everyone keeps lumping ep4 into the list of episodes needing a rework. What was wrong with that one exactly? I think it was necessary for the characterization of both protags

>>93067250
He literally went to fight with his family in the latest season and nobody had an issue with it. It make sense as you get older to stick more with your family.

The story is in the details but the premise is in the brevity, which was what I was aimimg for. If I wanted to write a story, I would've taken to fanfiction.net. You're not sold, fine, but in terms of structure, building upon previously established elements and pacing this version still has more happening without losing steam or rushing past anything.

>>93067273
>Implying Ashi isn't fanwank-level

>>93067288
They get bored watching the scenery and silent scenes.
Basically, bandwagoners who've only watched season 5 and expected nothing but action and blood.

>>93067303
>You're not sold, fine, but in terms of structure, building upon previously established elements and pacing this version still has more happening without losing steam or rushing past anything.
I know your idea sounds good in your head, but the moment you start analyzing plotholes just start showing up.

>>93067303
If you complain about pacing and say your idea can do it better, you have to show it. 9/10 when someone says they can pace something better it falls apart the moment they start writing it out.

>>93067328
Because it's a premise I gave, not a detailed script. A premise gives a broadstroke idea of the story, not the individual blow-by-blow retelling of it.

>>93067359
I have kicked around the idea of writing out a script for episodes 4-10.

>>93067363
As a premise it works. But everyone can give a premise.
"What if Jack had stayed alone the whole time with only suicide Jack by his side?"
"What if season 5 had been episodic in nature and the last two episodes were a two parter to deal with Aku?"
See, everyone can do it. Now, making it work is another matter entirely. And by the way you've been describing it to me, it doesn't seem like it could work.
>>93067379
If you did that I'd read it and give you my honest opinion. If I liked it better than the one we got I'd tell you, same if you wrote something worse.

>>93067554
A very detailed premise, considering your requests. The fact that you don't like it is really only due to the fact taht I came up with it on the fly and worked it out as I went along. And yet, I still managed to inject more development, set up and payoff without resorting to last minute main cast additions, and the story depending on them.

>>93067605
I didn't like it because the premise itself doesn't lend itself to the story we're dealing with, but whatever.
>And yet, I still managed to inject more development, set up and payoff without resorting to last minute main cast additions, and the story depending on them.
Of course you did.
So far all you've done has been patching up the mistakes I've been pointing out. So I guess half of your script's credit should go to me.

>>93067250
>>93067328
>>93067554
The way you keep prodding the other anon for more and more fleshed out details makes it sound like you wouldn't be satisfied until he not only writes a script, but also comes up with a fully animated re-take on the entire series.

>>93063815
>Phil, please. Hate everything for no reason with us.

>>93063542
YOU'VE FORGOTTEN YOUR PUR-POSE, Phil.

But it's okay, I ain't mad. Everyone gets an opinion.

>>93067651
He keeps saying he'd do a better story than Genndy just by changing a character. I asked him how he'd plan to do that. I see problems with his ideas and point them out. He keeps adding data that I feel doesn't quite add up.
If you're going to claim to be a better author than the original creator and that you could do his work better than him why don't you prove it? This isn't me saying "you can't criticize because it's not your show", this is me asking someone who says he knows better to put his money where his mouth is.

>>93067635
Taht's how writing works. You think first drafts get printed with no editorial input? Or at all?

>>93067846
Seems Genndy's did

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>>93067899
>>93067846
If I remember right, Lazzo didn't even see the panels for e10 because he wanted to be surprised.

It does kinda warm my heart that Phil apparently cares enough about Genndy and Samurai Jack to even both defending the finale at all.

>>93067250
>The Scotsman clearly likes his people, but he's always been a loner. He stays away from home as much as possible; he spent 5 years without seeing the person he loves the most in the world, for God's sake. What drives him is the fun he gets from fighting.

Jack has always kept him at arm's length, too. I mean, he literally does not know the man's name. Both of them seem to realize and accept this, and if I had to guess why, it'd be because both know the other has a ridiculously deadly quest and could be snuffed out at any time.

Plus, Scotty boy's personally isn't exactly subtle or thoughtful. He'd have difficulty understanding Jack's neuroses, I think, not that Jack would ever admit them anyway. Ashi finds out more or less by chance circumstances and going through similar life-altering paradigm shifts.

>>93064843
>"Come on Da Vinci lighten up"
>"Da Vinci"
Yeah fuck Venice

>>93068097
>People never change over the course of decades

>>93068097
>I mean, he literally does not know the man's name.
Was it actually stated at some point that the Scotsman never told Jack his name? The new season never showed Ashi telling Jack her name, but Jack learned it off-screen anyway. And I don't think the season ever showed when exactly did Ashi learn that Jack's from the past, but apparently she did find out about it at some point. Even though Jack's a quiet guy and the show's main focus was on visuals rather than dialogue, there were still important bits of communication taking place off-screen.

>>93068286
The Scotsman demonstrably doesn't.

>>93068343
It's not stated, but it can be inferred from the fact that Jack never uses it at any point in Seasons 1-4 nor in Season 5. He clearly has one, too, since he bellows out his clan name when tooting his doots at Aku. Worth noting that Jack apparently never told Ashi his birth name, either, or she just preferred 'Jack.' Or perhaps even Jack prefers Jack now, it's what his hallucinations call him.

>>93068497
>First draft writing is definitive
My arse.

It's kind of fucked up how defensive people are getting over the "backlash" (I feel like the overall opinion on the finale and final season as a whole is really middling so I don't get where people are coming up with the entitled fans stuff).

Outside of DC/Marvel fight threads the post finale Jack threads have contained the most concentrated amounts of "Well if you didn't like it how would YOU have done it chucklefuck" or "it's HIS show he can do what he wants" and that really doesn't change anything said.

To be fair there have been people unironically going "I could shit on Genddy's writing here's what I would have done" but the vast majority is venom from people on here at anyone who has any opinion short of stellar for the end.

>>93068528
It is when it's the only draft there is, dude.

>>93066178
If that's the case, then why even make it into a cartoon? Why not just take solace in your storyboards instead of disappointing millions?

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>fangirls' faces when he's permanently off the market due to the ridiculously high standard his first girlfriend set