Okay, Without triggering the Mods here. We NEED to have a serious

The issue isn't diversity, fans embraced Kamala.
The issue isn't politics, because the best Cap runs were grounded in issues of the day.
The issue is the writing is SHIT and the editorial mandates are SHIT.

Pretty sure we can bitch openly about Marvel. We have a long open bitching thread about Marvel every few days and there's practically a new one once the latest comics come out.

>>92686397
I beg to differ. Prime example is new Iron man. Figuratively speaking, stark is a fucking hologram and it's about a narcissistic black millenial girl who is suppose to be smarter THEN STARK yet pulls a "clock boy" all wile in the back the 23 yr old assistant editor decides to check some older fans privileges because supposedly it's sexist to question the narrative. We also have captain marvel and Captain "anti America hail hydra" and Black Panther and Crew aka Racist storm. The list goes on and on. There is more to it then just MUH WRITING.

Though it is an issue too

>>92686339
ITS THE FUCKING AGENDA,

I think this really sums up the issues quite nicely

https://www.theatlantic.com/entertainment/archive/2017/05/the-real-reasons-for-marvel-comics-woes/527127/

>>92686397
>fans embraced Kamala.
They embraced her out of white guilt.

>>92686578
there is a decent youtuber called diversity & Comics who reviews new marvel comics and it is so hard to go through due to how BAD shit is now in marvel.


Can anyone here that SECRET WARS #1 was literal cancer? Nick Spencer just hates us as fans in my opinion

>>92686339

>turning one of the most open, accepting heroes in the entire brand into a fascist monster
>progressive

I'm not sure you know what that means.

>>92686339
Yeah, what we need is another thread talking about how Marvel is shit and how do we save it and they should definitely reboot.

We haven't had any of those in at least six hours.

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>>92686657
They turned captain america, essentially speaking, a symbol for patriotism and freedom into a permanently hypocritical nazi. It's neo-progressive as the ideals of americanism and capitalism IS anti-progressive.

Neo-progressive is the idea that extreme leftism is the best solution to society so things like American patriotism is essentially evil or bad and neo-progressive types will normally equate Things they do not like Idealogically to Nazism.

I.e Antifa, Anarcho-communists, Californian's etc.

It's very prominent in multiple entertainment and media areas right now for obvious reasons.

>>92686669
I don't care about marvel anymore desu, DC is doing gangbusters with the rebirth watchmen series so I'm good

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>>92686775
Damn straight

>>92686568

Comics have and always will have a general liberal bent. It's never going to go away and you don't get to pretend it never existed just because you're triggered by modern liberalism.

>>92686775
yeah well.... your movie still suck!

>>92686339
>How has /co/ been dealing with this replacement theory come true?
by accepting marvel died with Secret Wars and continue reading classics

>>92686804
Not completely accurate but I can see what you mean. Most comics usually do with exceptions to DC comics and Vertigo and Dark Horse. Marvel has always had a very hard liberal leaning though

>>92686830
I never read Secret Wars but people reference it as the death to marvel ALOT. What's the TLDR of it exactly?

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>>92686775
>tfw dont give a shit about Marvels diversity push nor DC's milking of old ideas
the big 2 are both shells of their former selves clamoring for their old glory days
its best to just expand your horizon beyond capeshit

>>92686845

DC has been pretty liberal too, just not as much as Marvel.

I don't give a shit that the new Iron Man is a black girl. I'm just pissed that her character is "This sucks! I'm too smart and too talented and I'm getting too many opportunities in life!"

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>>92686874
>>92686874
False on so many levels.

Communists hate liberals. Neo-progressive people ARE the revolutionaries

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>>92686858
>The book was about the entire multiverse dying down one by one
>in the end the only ones left are 616 and Ultimate
>they both crash into each other and explode
>thats the end for the universe that ran since F4 in 1961 up until 2015

>>92686914
Holy shit wtf were they thinking? Who wrote it?

>>92686905
I too get all my definitions from libertywhip dot com, the most trusted political philosopher in America.

>>92686929
Hickman.

To be honest, Secret Wars is the least shitty Marvel event though, even if that's not saying much.

>>92686638
>Can anyone here that SECRET WARS #1 was literal cancer?
Man, what? Secret Wars #1 was the best thing about that event. Watching the Ultimate Universe rain down hell was satisfying as fuck.

>>92686551
It can be summed up with shit writing, shit writers and shit editors though. I don't think people who genuinely care for diversity and minority representation want bullshit in their comic. Like nobody (except maybe some faggots) is asking that the newest black book from Marvel should demonize the whiteys or shit like that. That's author's personal political stand, you can't blame diversity for that.
Also these kind of "diversity books" don't even make up the 5% of total output. Anon, Marvel is putting out upwards of 80 books a month. These books are not representative of their general output or their approach to publication. However if you still want to blame diversity, I would kindly ask you to fuck off back to /v/, /tv/, /pol/, Reddit or whatever shithole you came from.

>>92686339
Huh, it's funny because I think I saw this EXACT comment somewhere else but instead of "neo-progressive" it was "alt-right fascist."

>>92686339
>Without triggering the Mods here
>thread goes /pol/
OP...

>>92686965
Nick Spencer, like Aaron Diaz, is hated equally across the entire political spectrum.

>>92686976
No one is talking about hanging minorities or gassing people anon. Stop false flagging

>>92686669
There needs to be a containment general for all the fuck marvel shitflinging going around.

>>92686823
Meh, can't win em' all.

>>92686579
Then explain why I embraced her. I don't have any white guilt. I literally can't.

>>92686551
What you said doesn't disprove what >>92686397 said at all.

It's still shit writing (Bendis) and even shittier editorial. A good writer wouldn't be so hamfisted with introducing a new character, or so stupid about shitting all over an established character to make their OC look better. Good editorial would rein that shit in instead on encouraging or ignoring it.

What you're complaining about--forced diversity, virtue signalling, pandering to a non-existent audience at the expense of the old readers--are just symptoms. The disease goes all the way up to the top.

Marvel refuses to acknowledge this, let alone do anything about it. Instead, they blame their established readership for not wanting to read the shit they're trying to peddle, like it's our fault their product sucks.

Until Marvel can acknowledge what their real issues are, they'll only keep getting worse.

>>92686339
You can't have a serious discussion because all people want to do is REEEE at the idea of brown people rather than the execution of the ideas.

The actual problem with modern Marvel is it's run by liberals like Spenser who like tokenistic diversity because it's easy and bolsters their social status, but who tremble at the thought of real structural change. What we need to do is get some Marxists in.

>We're going full /pol/

MODS!

>>92686551
Okay, but real talk for a second. How is Tony Stark anything but narcissistic wish fulfillment for white men?

There's nothing wrong with a character who is just "the smartest person in the world." We didn't see Iron Man go to Standford and "earn" his intelligence.

We're seeing an unfortunate way interplay between:

1. Marvel courting new demos who have shown themselves through the MCU to be interested in their properties but reluctant to buy the comics

2. The market's historic inability to support new characters that are not linked to pre-existing properties

3. Event/character death fatigue

Marvel deserves blame for 3 and the market continues to prove the point on 2 (I mean it's not like /co/ was super supportive of Mosaic) but 1 throws gasoline on the fire of everything else because the larger traditional market seems to feel either isolated OR feeling out of sync with the properties/tropes they accept when those characters are "traditional." Just saying.

>>92687131
Define where we are politically incorrect

>>92687206
The very idea of needing to purchase any commodity is an unacceptable deviation from Marxist-Leninist thought.

>>92687059
>>92687253
>>92687258
My armchair philosophers
>>>/lit/
>>>/pol/

>>92687253
I would like it to be called "leftism", as that is its name.

>>92687296
>>/buzzwords/

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>>92686397
>The issue isn't diversity, fans embraced Kamala.

One example of acceptance out of dozens received in hatred doesn't clear "diversity." While I haven't read a ton of Kamala, she is unique for a couple of reasons. 1) She didn't replace Ms. Marvel. She took the name, sure, but Carol still exists and rose to higher profile as Capt. Marvel. 2) Carol shit all over herself, Kamala didn't do that. 3) Kamala didn't spend a lot of time running around screaming "muh evil whites."

All the other diversity Characters replaced their white Progenators, shit all over them by going "wez betta dan dems cuz colaz," and shit on them in one way or another.

>The issue isn't politics, because the best Cap runs were grounded in issues of the day.

Yes, some of the best Cap runs (and others) were based on issues of the day. But unlike the Cap runs, which tried to take a less biased look, or say Green Lantern/Green Arrow which presented both sides of the argument rather fairly, the present trend is BELIEVE WHAT WE TELL YOU IS RIGHT OR YOUR A FUCKING NAZI, YOU STUPID FUCKING CUNTS!

>The issue is the writing is SHIT and the editorial mandates are SHIT.

Well, you're not wrong. Both of the above are due to editorial mandates and writing being shit. But you're ignoring the shit they're doing even as you proclaim what they're doing is shit.

>>92687296
>wahh I don't understand in depth analysis go to other boards wahh!

Lol

Just reading the posts in this thread, and you can see what's the problem with current Marvel. Marvel by bringing all this political controversy bullshit, they practically fucked up the entire cape comic industry.

>>92686579
And /co/ embraced her because MUH DICK and waifufaggotry.

>>92687373
This

>>92686823
rather have shitty movies and good comics, to be honest.

>>92686397
This, the talent pool for Marvel is just shit right now.

OP is a moron, Marvel is and always has been about progressive stories and characters--I mean look at fucking X-Men. What we see now is just the modern take on it.

With better writers, their problems would be solved.

>>92686397
Diversity is a problem because its done in a pandering way. Diversity should be no more than an incidental thing.

>>92686875
yeah, but the problem isn't "being liberal." It's being fair while being liberal that makes DC better than Marvel. DC isn't shitting on people for not being liberal enough, and they aren't radically changing characters to be something they're not.

Sure, Green Arrow is a flat out SJW...but he was that before SJW's existed. But Superman has not turned into a rainbow haired gay man who hates america.So it's all pretty fair.

>>92687187
You need a reality check if peoples differing opinions triggers you this much and you have to dismiss everyone as some kind of shitposter and prevent any kind of real discussion from happening.

>>92687373
No, Marvel fucks up the cape industry with it's shitty business practices.

Price rises far beyond inflation.
Rebooting ongoings over and over for #1's.
Ridiculously convoluted variant bullshit.
Doing events again and again.

They crashed the comics industry perfectly fine without politics before, they can do it again without that help.

>>92687444
And respectively, they made GREAT spin offs of superman as a communist(red son) and a dictator(injustice). It was tasteful and tied in perfectly.

>>92687131
shut up, this is no where near /pol/

>>92687416
Let's be honest, the fans read X-Men because it's superhero soap opera. The people that read X-Men, cared more about who is going to fuck Jean Grey or Emma Frost, instead of any political message about the franchise.

>>92687366
>in depth analysis
Nigger, I wrote more "in depth analysis" about these things in fucking 8th grade.

>>92687387
She's not even hot either. There's no tits or ass on that girl.

>>92687426

> Diversity should be no more than an incidental thing.

That argument is worthless because no matter what people will scream that it's pandering. Setting up arbitrary rules on when people should be diverse and when they shouldn't is bullshit and we've gotten pat the point where people are going to accept that as an excuse.

It's no different then the "It's not the time and place for this." excuse. It's racism/sexism in a nicer, more appealing wrapper.

>>92687444
Yeah, take a look at the difference between their diversity characters.

While he's the Chinese Superman, Kenan isn't presented as someone to look up to. He's a jerk with parent issues, and he needs constant mentoring to get him to be even a fraction of what Clark is like. Plus, he's written by someone with a long history of writing comics about Chinese life.

While America Chavez is presented as this paragon that everybody should look up to no matter what she does. And she's written by someone who has no fucking idea what Hispanic life is like.

>>92686830
Exactly this
I consider anything after Secret Wars to be an elseworlds story

>>92687508
>ad hominid with a buzzword to get mods to shut down discuss

Grade A bait I see.

>>92687488
Yeah you'd know all about it /pol/ack, won't you?

>>92686397
First post best post

>>92687541
>Reddit linebreak
You have to go back.

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>>92686339
>only the movies doing anything good.
>marvel movies
>good

>>92687496
This.
I never read for the politics, I read for the costumes and the waifus.

>>92687609
Oh boy ya got me :^)

>>92687611
Contrarians belong on Reddit.

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>>92687044
>I don't have any white guilt. I literally can't.
Yes you can. You're just suffering from internalized oppression.

>>92687546
>newfag detected.

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>>92687657
>underage detected

>>92687387
/co/ isnt a single person
some embraced, some didnt

there are people that will embrace and accept whatever you throw at them, there are people that will complain even if you do what they tell
we cant take those as an example and say everybody behaves like that

>>92687512
>no matter what people will scream that it's pandering.
So why is no one screaming pandering for Simon Baz? Jessica Cruz? Kenan Kong? Ryan Choi? Jaime Reyes?

Your argument falls apart because yes, it DOES matter HOW diversity is handled. And Marvel does it wrong. Plain and simple.

>>92687689
>cancer detected.

>>92687284
... aw baby. I just said that there was nothing wrong with it.

But if you get triggered when only a certain kind of person gets to be the smartest, I don't know what to say about you... some characters are wish fulfillment. That in and of itself is not an issue. Some people seem to notice it more when the person doing all the cool things doesn't look like them, though. And then you'd think that Tony Stark was walkong being constantly crippled by his flaws, humble and being humbled constantly... just like black and female characters should be.

>>92687512
This guy gets it. Thanks for fighting the good fight. I lurk mostly but I also know that only that keeps this place from becoming /pol/ is when reasonable people challenge that kind of stuff.

>>92686578
>https://www.theatlantic.com/entertainment/archive/2017/05/the-real-reasons-for-marvel-comics-woes/527127/

>insightful, well written, well researched, nuanced look at the state of Marvel Comics, the history of where it's from and how that informed where it is today
>I'M NOT READING THAT! MARVEL IS SHIT BECAUSE IT OFFENDS ME! THIS /POL/ MSPAINT GRAPHIC PROVES ME RIGHT RRRRRRREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE

This board deserves shit comics and a shit comic book industry.

>>92686397
First post best post

>>92687740

>he thinks there was so screaming over Simon Baz and Jamie Reyes when they came out

>>92687785
samefag, 1st post was shit and you can tell by the answers destroying it

>>92687779
Holy shit the projection is real

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>>92686823
But Anon it already sucked 8 years ago.

>>92687808
Nice meme. You know why no one is screaming now? Because the book handles diversity well. DC never tried to anger bait its readers into a shitstorm to get attention. It's also a well written book on it's own.

Everyone ITT needs to kill themselves.

Here's the thing about political commentary in fiction: If you have to resort to a blatant parody or caricature of your targeted belief or politician of choice in order to get your point across, then you either need to go back to the drawing board or consider a career elsewhere, such as managing a Denny's.

>>92687896
start with yourself

>>92687362
>One example of acceptance out of dozens received in hatred doesn't clear "diversity."
The Young Avengers did decently in a lot of places even after Gillen fucked them up, Hazmat isn't disliked, neither are the Runaways or most of the newer X-kids who aren't Quentin and lot of people like Miles.

Diversity works when you aren't deliberately replacing characters and write the new ones with care.

>>92687779
>And then you'd think that Tony Stark was walkong being constantly crippled by his flaws
>Tony Stark was walkong
What did he mean by this?

>>92687745
Because DC is doing more pandering to its base while also doing diversity.

It's fine if you want to see Marvel do that. I would too. Marvel is doing multiple things I disagree with and those things are interacting with one another.

I don't know why the fact that a character you don't like is doing things you don't like in a book you don't like is so fucking irritating to you. Except I do. You're reacting to the feeling that Marvel only makes one kind of book now. Which is a problem they need to deal with and that DC has done a better job dealing with. That hampers Marvel's intent to go and make books for lots of different demographics. There's very little to be excited about at Marvel if you want event-free meat and potatoes comics and Marvel is dealing with the same problem DC faced a few years back when they wanted to roll back some of their legacy characters... you're going to be murdering or sidelining a lot of female and minority characters and replacing them with white men. They bit that bullet then and have been figuring out how to rethread it all in recent years, but it's a process and marvel seems unwilling to do something like that, probably at least bit because the Heroic Age tanked so fucking hard after Secret Invasion/Dark Everthing.

I don't like the current take on superman but I deal with that by not reading it and waiting on something else to change.

>>92687923
Walking along.

Like one does when they post on mobile while having a life.

>>92687951
>/co/
>life
gtfo

>>92686578
Not a bad article, but it calls KSD's Captain Marvel a success that stood on it's own when it sat at cancellation level through three or so relaunches while better titles died off around it, so I'm pretty sure Marvel had at least something to do with it surviving.
That is interesting about how KSD paid out of pocket for promotional merch though.

>>92687988
>gtfo
Get the fuck out.

>>92686339
I WANT TO KISS KAMALA BECAUSE I LIKE KAMALA AS A CHARACTER, BUT I WOULD ONLY KISS KAMALA BECAUSE SHE IS CUTE AND REALLY IS THE ONLY FROM NEW MARVEL THAT NEEDS TO CONTINUE FORTH.

>>92688109
You know what leads to unity? Massive loss of life, plague, and starvation because it reminds every human being that regardless of their titles or colors, they are mortal creatures of blood flesh and bone, that they will all die, that they all can be hurt, and that it can happen very easily, even at the snap of a finger.

But some people don't like pain, so that's why we have diversity instead/

>>92687876
There isn't anything wrong with Tony Stark being a wish-fulfillment character.

There is something wrong with white people when they get triggered when anyone who is not a white man gets to fill that role. There are PLENTY of things wrong with the whole concept of wish fulfillment characters. BUT... people only point to those things when they are triggered.

Batman doesn't bother me. Iron Man doesn't bother me. Neither does Ironheart. Neither does Amadeus Cho... even though it's silly that he's the Hulk. I can not like a comic and not blame it on politics.

The problem is shit writers and shit editors.

Nothing is wrong with trying something new. You stick to status quo and you fall victim to stagnation. You stir things up, you make things interesting again. The problem is that Marvel is trying to stir -everything- up and no one they have is competent enough to make it work, so you have all these seemingly pointless and ridiculous changes being fumbled around haphazardly. Then when sales tank because you alienated your readers, you just awkwardly and abruptly return everything to status quo.

>>92687880
I will never get over how its literally an extended "greatest hits of the 60s" music video.

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>>92688239
wew

>>92688239
Im hoping and praying for Europe to erupt into war and kill the politicians and mudslimes that are ruining the continent.
Really the only way they can redeem themselves

>>92688578

>literally has a sex scene set to Hallelujah

It's amazing how people try and delude themselves into thinking Snyder is a master filmmaker. Though the fanboys probably handwave it and try to claim that it's obviousness is the point or it's somehow ironic or some other "auteur theory means you can never make a mistake" bullshit

>>92688427
This. Plus, they have done this kind of thing in the past and it has worked. The problem was that they took the wrong lessons from their success. Milla/Bendis/JMS/Smith/Morrison circa 1999-2000ish came in and blew the doors off of a Marvel that had been stagnating after shitting on its base massively in the mid-nineties with Clone Sage/Onslaught/Heroes Reborn and inventing the promotional and distribution practices that nearly killed the comics industry.

And for a while that was good... and a second crop of writers and artists got cultivated by that process... but they jumped ship to Image. Now, Marvel has no talent to replace them (save MAYBE Spencer and Zdarsky) and NO INTEREST in cultivating more name talent (because Remender, Fraction, Brubaker, Rucka, Vaughan and a shit ton of artists like Martin, Rivera, Opena, etc are all at Image, not to mention JRJR, Hitch, Lee being DC people) and someone, probably Perlmutter, has told them to focus on recruiting house style writers and artists to pump out predictable books doing predictable things... with the sole exception being the bookstore market which is potentially big enough (none of us see those numbers) to merit doing shit like Squirrel Girl, Ms. Marvel, and America.

That's what's going on. Marvel is dealing with the erosion of good-will that (and all the X-men/FF bullshit + Movie Inclusion) has done, but I will be very surprised if they ACTUALLY make anything beyond illusory changes even now.

What IS interesting is how DC is capitalizing on ALL of these decisions by doing the exact opposite (while still being pretty good on diversity because they've seen how ugly things can get on that front) and regaining shittons of good will from New 52 at a rate I would not have believed if you told me three years ago. If their movies suddenly start to be good, Marvel is in real fucking trouble and I think we'll see a whole lot of deck clearing very very quickly.

So that's my hot take on things...

>>92686339
Weird, on tumblr and leftbook they seem to think Nick Spencer is Richard Spencer's evil twin, spreading fascism to the masses via comic books.

>>92687161
>(I mean it's not like /co/ was super supportive of Mosaic)

/co/ seemed to totally ignore Mosaic. Which is a shame, it's a pretty good comic.

/pol/ freaked out about the main character being a black dude dating a blonde haired white girl, but never read far enough to discover she was cucking him with her lesbian bodyguard.

>>92687387
To be honest, kamala truly is japanese Waifu tier. Last time I read her comics, she was doing cute thing and punching criminals like in my Japanese cartoon

>>92686339
pepe silvia is behind it all

>>92688984
There was an initial interest when they first mentioned a new, non-legacy character, and that interest died the moment Marvel said he was an inhuman.

>>92687883
this

Baz is an angry Muslim man who ran around with a gun, and Jess had crippling anxiety. Instead of being "Perfect" they were human beings with flaws who you could relate to and understand, struggling with their powers.

>>92688326
it's not that they're triggered when someone whose not white fills that role

it's that they're triggered when a white person is replaced so a person of color can fill that role, rather than the "diversity" character creating their own role and building it from there. It's the replacement, not the existence, that is the problem.

>>92686578
It was okay except for the "give Captain America a boyfriend" crap.

>>92687510
It's about muh delicious brown and Mia Khalifa

>>92689166
>SJWs: Give Captain America a boyfriend!!
>Marvel: Fuck you, we're making him fascist instead.
>/pol/: Marvel is catering to the SJWs!!!

>>92686339
the only actual issue here is the "shovelware shitshow" part of your complaint, everything else I don't give a single fuck about.

>>92688984
>reading inhumans
No

>>92687808
>he thinks there was no screaming over...Jamie Reyes

It's not comparable. I started reading Blue Beetle after he was introduced at /co/'s recommendation. There was plenty of complaining in some threads, but as I recall it was mostly sad Kord fans (and BB/BGfags) and readers who liked Jaime overall but thought the border control arc was hackneyed. There was nowhere near the same level of complaint because A) the politicization of nerd culture was just barely getting started and readers weren't yet as sensitized to it, and B) the writing wasn't shit and the character was genuinely likeable, much like Kamala.

>>92687541
>ad homonid
Is this a nigger joke?

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>>92688892
>Talking comics with an acquaintance from college
>Bring up how funny it is that people are accusing Nick Spencer of being a neo-Nazi, given his far-left stances
>"Yeah, well, Captain America was made by Jews, and there's like, a LOT of antisemitism going on these days? So yeah."
>Look up plot synopsis
>Issue one ended on the "Hail Hydra" cliffhanger, literally everything afterwards reveals it's a "the bad guys used a reality-altering maguffin to turn him evil, how's Cap gonna get back to normal now?"
If you ever wanna know if someone reads comics or not, ask their opinion on HydraCap. If they get offended, then they have no idea what they're talking about and every opinion they have on the medium should be called into question.

I mean honestly:
>Nick Spencer, a super far-left liberal, starts writing Captain America in the age of Donald Trump
>Storyline about how EVIL NAZIS have corrupted and bastardized a symbol of America's ideals
>Tumblrinas are too dumb to even realize this totally obvious subtext, let alone the old-as-time "NOW THE HERO IS EVIL! HOW WILL THEY GET OUT OF THIS ONE???" trope
I mean honestly.

>>92687611
Just don't watch any of them twice and they're fine

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>>92689603
Didn't he start on Cap when Trump was still a long shot to even win the primaries?

Heck, it's not Trump who authorizes building the planetary wall, it's Obama.

>>92687828
No one has yet to destroy it, faggot. DC doesn't have a problem with diversity characters.

All of this goes back to Marvel's creative direction. Stagnant writers, Ike being a cheap fucking Jew and killing Marvel editorial, idiots like Amanat being given creative control instead of being fired, etc. Blaming Marvel's problems on diversity is short sighted as fuck.

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>>92686397
I kinda agree with this.
Characters like Kamala prove that diversity isn't the issue, so much as it is ham-fisted implementation of diversity.

Kamala was great until she became an imaginary POC mouthpiece for a bunch of white writers who wanted to convince their readerbase to vote for Shillary. Same with Moon Girl and every other minority/legacy character they've added in the past few years. Miles stayed pretty untouched, but he feels both boring and irrelevant now.

You can have your comic be about social issues, just look at X-Men; the key is to not make it sound like you're talking down to/chastising the reader. If I wanted a smug asshole to shame me for my opinions, I'd enroll in a Sociology course. I read comics to disappear into a cool story for a while.

Not even a /pol/lack, but I noticed a trend where so many major Marvel books turned into "that's right, if you hold any of these perfectly reasonable viewpoints, then your favorite hero HATES YOU", which is why the only cape comic I read these days (aside from Spider-Man/Deadpool, which is just fun adventure and interesting character dynamics) is Aquaman. Because Aquaman is about an average joe with the weight of the world on his shoulders and no one in his corner but his special lady.

They lost sight of what these stories should be about, and the quality suffered as a result.

>>92686397
As a Eurofag who's been trying to get into capeshit but never managed to, here's what I have a problem with, maybe it brings something to the table? Most of these apply to DC as well.

Absolute #1: Straight up SHIT writing, current editors and writers need to be fired and replaced with people who are at least decent at their craft and know how comic books work. Right now they're written by people who are out of touch with the world (SJW or not) outside their yuppie American neighborhood. Characters have no voice of their own, the only differences are the costumes and whatever history the character has in the current continuity. You could swap places between most characters and nothing would change. The only ones who are safe are heroes who historically had a specific, one-note personality (Wolverine, Frank, etc.)

#2 Cringe SJW shit that at this point makes me instantly put down everything that looks somewhat "diverse" on the sole premise of avoiding brain damage.
#3 Continuity is a fucking mess and all the AU shit and reboots are offputting. Too many characters and clones of characters for the sake of tieing together as many runs as possible (at least that's what I perceive) and other shit that's aimed at maximizing sales from companies that are basically on life support and should cut down shitty content and focus on quality. Give me self-contained runs (NOT hard reboots) that I can pick up and enjoy on their own. It seems like they don't know WHY they're starting a run or where they're headed. Comics like Dredd have always been pretty good at self-contained stories, maybe they should take example from that.
#4 Sloppy art, not always bad but always rushed or unpolished.
#5 Community drama, you have to sift throgh tons of SJW polemics, company wars, and politics whenever you want to discuss capeshit related content. It's not relevant to the comics themselves but it's a tiresome environment to stay in.

>>92686823
Oh yeah they do.
This is why company wars is such bullshit; Marvel has garbage comics and DC has garbage movies. I read old Marvel and watch it get adapted into the movies, but stick with current DC because they seem to actually know what they're doing when it comes to their books.

Also DC has better video games, but we'll see if that balances out a bit more once that PS4 Spider-Man game comes out.

>>92686929
Eh, at least we got some cool moments in the side books where we got to see how everyone spent their last days on Earth.
>Punisher just rolls up to Kingpin's penthouse and murders every Spider-Man and Daredevil villain

>>92686988
Yeah, but The Fix and Superior Foes are fucking amazing.

Dude has talent, he just needs to keep writing comedy. Whenever he tries to make something with a politically motivated point, it comes across in a really awkward "I've got a stick up my ass the size of a mighty redwood" kinda way.

>>92687131
>"Hey, I don't like the direction Marvel is going in, is anyone else sick of hamfisted diversity?"
>"/P-POL/ IS INVADING, M-MODS! MODS!!!"
Anon, you're making me type out the word "/comblr/" and I really hate doing that.
So please stop being such a faggot, for all of our sakes.

>>92687510
KAMALA A CUTE

>>92686551
But Riri isn't a bad character. Her biggest fault is having a predecessor who constantly changes morals every event and keeps telling her different shit.

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>>92687784
Who are you quoting?

>>92689995
Bendis, on /co/?

>>92687779
>"Thanks for #RESISTING! We need to fight the cisheteropatriarchy or else this place will become /pol/!"
Holy shit please >>Tumblr

>>92687496
This ironically worked because X-men has the most female heroes in the attempt to be diverse.

>>92686858
Because it's literally the death of the Marvel Universe. The one that's currently being featured in the comics is a near perfect recreation created by Reed Richards after he ascended to absolute godhood.

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>>92687899
This.
You read about the shit Marvel did in the old days when there was SERIOUS inequality (as in actual aggression, not just microaggressions) and it comes across as so subtle and nuanced compared to what they're doing now.

>1960's, right in the wake of desegregation
>Spider-Man's costume covers his entire body, so when he's fighting crime, it could be any person of any race swinging around being a hero. Any reader of any color can insert themselves into the narrative and pretend to be Spider-Man.

>2010's, when college students are fighting in favor of racially segregated classes, dorms, and graduation ceremonies
>"WE MADE THIS POC GIRL SMART TO SHOW HOW SMART POC GIRLS ARE, LOOK AT HOW SMART THIS DRAWING IS AND HOW DUMB THE DRAWING OF THE GUY WE DON'T LIKE IS."

>>92689135
This.
If a new character shows up and, for example, teams up with Reed Richards to do some science shit, my first thought is "oh cool, what can they bring to the table?"

But Marvel seems to have this problem where the only way they can promote a new character is by making all the old characters into incompetent retards who are totally blown away by what a bad dude Poochie is.

It's exactly the problem with Moon Girl.
>Introduce cute kid character, has lighthearted and offbeat adventures doing jerryrigged superscience with a giant T-Rex
>"AND SHE'S THE SMARTEST CHARACTER EVER, WAY SMARTER THAN ALL THESE DUDES, NO SHE DOESN'T HAVE ANY FEATS TO PROVE IT, WE JUST SAID SHE IS, LOOK AT HER TALKING TO COLLEGE KIDS ABOUT HOW DUMB THE ESTABLISHMENT IS, SHE'S SMART AND IF YOU DISAGREE WITH HER YOU'RE DUMB"

Like, fuck, just make a cool character and let them sink or swim on their own merits. It's like these people never watched The Itchy and Scratchy and Poochie Show.

>>92689693
It started as a general fear of "we can't let our nation become this", but after he won it went full #RESIST.

Notice how the whole HydraCap thing only escalated to "no he's the real Steve Rogers and now he can hold Mjolnir and holy shit things are looking bad" after Trump won.

>>92687362
So Kamala's comics aren't SJW-preachy? Is she worth picking up? Her powers are interesting and she's honestly adorable to read, but I've never picked up an issue. Is Islam too prominent in it?

>>92687912
So.... just writing good characters?

I've never got how diversity is inherently good. Developing unique characters with different backgrounds and experiences is a given, but when it comes to diversity people only seem to associate it with race and gender. It's not wrong to represent people of different appearances, but that always seems to be as deep as SJWs go in what they call for.

>>92688326
Here's the real problem with Riri: There were TWO girls who could've been Tony's apprentice who would've made more sense from a story perspective. I'd ABSOLUTELY read a book about Toni Ho having to pick up Tony's life while his literal ghost is advising her, because the character was presented in an interesting way and I want to see her interact with Iron Man for a while.

But idk you've already decided everyone who disagrees with you's an evil white man so whatever.

>>92689689
Don't watch any of them once and they're perfect.

>>92690314
>So Kamala's comics aren't SJW-preachy?
from what I understand it started off OK and then she quickly became le SJW mouthpiece

>>92688984
oh boy lesbians.

we sure do need more of them in comics.

just piiilllessss of lesbians, all uniformly sassy and in need of no body.

Fucking yawn.

>>92689814

Read classic comics first and then MAYBE dip your foot into modern. I fucking love Green Lantern, but that's because the characters have decades of good runs and classic trades, and I'm at best vaguely aware of what's happened since about halfway through Johns's run. I could say the same for Wonder Woman, or Superman, or Adam Strange, and you can say the same for any long running character.

I think that when I first went to /co/ we were all a bit naive since we'd occasionally rag on O'Neil and Adams's Green Lantern/Green Arrow comics for being slightly preachy and wearing their message on their sleeves, but at least those comics tried to talk about actual real life issues affecting regular people like drug addiction in youth coming from neglect issues, or corrupt businessmen and officials having chokeholds on smaller towns, or native american reservations coming under abuse. Hell, even in all of those Oliver Queen and Hal Jordan simply can't fix the larger problem and don't even have a real solution to fix their own personal lives. Oliver Queen was probably the very first character you could call a social justice warrior, and he was even then written to be loud, hypocritical, and at times stupid.

Contrast that with a modern hip hero who's main concern is vague notions of sexism going on in wealthy urban environments. Their attachment to even real world crime they fight is vestigial at best. The writers don't even care about making it vaguely believable or having a character that's intentionally flawed and engaging.

Marvel is doing what comics have always done.

It's HOW that's the problem. Awful writing, awful dialogue, cringe in every direction, and pushing characters no one wants.

DC pushes diversity as much as Marvel, but it happens organically. If you force shit on people, they resent it.

>>92687611
Doesn't matter how high you set the bar if you don't come anywhere close to clearing it.

Marvel movies are pretty simplistic, but they objectively accomplish their goals as films better than what WB's been putting out as of late for the DCEU.
Although Aquaman looks super promising, I love how into it the dude playing Manta is.

>>92689894
yeah if there's one thing i wanna see it's more punisher wank.

Spider-man villains should generally not have to fear the Punisher considering how many of them are bulletproof right up until Punish-man's super real bullets get them I guess.

>>92690396
>If you force shit on people, they resent it.
THIS.

>>92690410
>Not liking the Punisher
How're those Justice League reshoots coming along, Joss?

>>92690442
I like the Punisher just fine until his bullets are somehow more deadly than the cops firing at the Rhino when he plows through a building.

Punisher's at his best as a Spidy/Daredevil antagonist who reminds them why they DON'T kill people because holy shit that guy. I thought Bendis, of all people, used him especially well when he got himself arrested to try to kill the Kingpin.

I just don't like "Punisher kills dudes who wipe the floor with dozens of armed men on the reg without being clever about it." stories or, more commonly, splash pages because it cheapens the villains and that writing technique is a part of why Marvel's in trouble.

>>92690258
yeah.

I mean take female Thor. When I heard about it, I was like "Cool, how do?" But then they made her Thor, not the powers but some bull about actually being "Thor" because she had the powers, and did it by shitting all over Thor in the worst way possible. That pissed me off to no end.

I didn't have a problem with a woman holding the hammer. I had a problem with the desecration so a woman "could" hold the hammer. Especially since the hammer has been passed around without doing that.

Hell, I'd have even accepted something along the lines of "Thor does something, gets sealed in a hammer. Now a woman picks up the hammer and wields the power of Thor." because that had been done. Hell, I'd have accepted bringing in the "Trans" thing by making it so a woman picks up the hammer, but when she uses it she actually turns into regular Thor, and has to deal with being a woman in a man's body. Which could have lead to some interesting stories and hilarious situations.

>>92690314
>I've never got how diversity is inherently good

It's because the people pushing it are actually racist and sexist.

I'm not going /pol/ here, but the simple fact of the matter is that "diversity" has a lot of racial and gender supremacists in it. And it becomes about the race/gender of the character. They're good because of their race, or they're good because of their gender. It doesn't matter what they actually do, because moral value is not placed on deeds, but on "blood" basically.

A good example of this is Capt. Marvel. Carol is good because she's a "strong woman," despite the fact that her actions have, well, been rather horrific both in deed and consequence. Same with JaneThor, she's worthy of the hammer...apparently because she's a woman and she suffers from cancer, but her actual actions (especially in her first few issues) were antithetical to what had been "worthy" for previous thors of all races, genders, and species.

>>92690365
>Read classic comics first and then MAYBE dip your foot into modern.
Classic cape runs are really, REALLY puerile. I can't read that stuff and stay engaged.

I don't expect comics to be very intellectually stimulating but I'd rather read the Franco-Belgian stuff, 2000 AD or even good manga from the period.

Modern capes are free of all the shitty limitations from the CCA but they never managed to evolve. They tried in the 90s but they got it wrong and never realized why.

>>92689995
Yes she is, she's literally a 14 year old girl who is smarter than stark in every way, even more so when you look at how old he was when he built his suit. She's done nothing of note other than put another uppity black child in her place, who was also claiming to be the smartest This doesn't even cover the fact that to make his shitty oc asspat character more special, he killed off an actual established caharcter who was black, and made the female counterpart take a back seat while to original wound up dead/in a coma. As for asspats, it's the same thing for all bendis minority characters:

>i don't want to be the thing
>okay now I am
>YOU WILL NEVER BE GOOD ENOUGH TO BE THE THING!
>character easily defeats impossibly strong villain like Thanos
>well I guess you were the best aLL ALONG
>you are more worthy for this thing than any other

>>92689436
>dissing on Blue and Gold fans
Hey man Jaime is a cool dude but we were going through the 7 stages dog. Those two were a good thing.

>>92687496
Yes and no. Senator Kelly was a good example of a "villain" who was right. Claremont always tried to make the villains be sympathetic, or make sense

>>92686874
Not necessarily. A lot of (((former))) communists hate Europe and its degeneration, even if they believe in equality of gender and races

As shitty as the politics first mindset from many of the new books is, on a certain level it actually works. Consider that both Faith and Mockingbird are up for Eisners in the best new book category.

>>92686339
Main problems with Marvel?

>Shit editors.

>Shit writers

>Shit artist.

>Stubborn people in charge.

>Refusing to take any responsibility for their actions.

>Shit talking fans and potential customers online.

>Shit characters no one likes (Not because of diversity, but because they're shit characters with the sole purpose of scoring brownie points. EX: Miles Morales, Riri Williams, Kate Bishop)

>Pushing said characters even though they're pretty hated by the people who actually buy the comics.

>Every other department is based off the movies, rather than the comics (which they should be)

These fuckers need a complete makeover if they want to redeem themselves.

>>92691207
>Mockingbird are up for Eisners in the best new book category.

Erica Henderson got an Eisner. Those mean jacks hit these days. Also, Mockingbird only became a best seller due to the writers screaming "abuse" online. It got canceled in the firstplace because no one bought the book.

>Faith.

Do people even like that book? I hardly see it being talked about anywhere.

>>92690905
I think the bigger WTF for me is that Stark is infamous for NOT trusting people with access to his tech. I mean it was the whole point of Armor Wars, where he'd rather crash his company, attack SHIELD and the US government than let them have his blueprints. It's right below alcoholisim, and being a dick to Rhodey and pepper as a major character trait for him..

>>92691268
We have a winrar here

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>>92691044

No hate, you guys were good eggs for the most part.

>>92690767
>Classic cape runs are really, REALLY puerile
Depends on how far you go back, I suppose. I was just reading some 80s Thor (Mutant Massacre) and it holds up. Better than some of the modern stuff I'd been reading, though I can't quite put my finger on why. Not that much has even changed (Odin dies, Thor tries to find his place while taking a break from Asgard, mutants are hated, etc).

>>92691268
>they're pretty hated by the people who actually buy the comics
Remember, /co/ doesn't buy comics.

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>>92691303
>Erica Henderson got an Eisner.

>>92691887
Apparently they buy more than Tumblr. Sales can back this.

>>92691455
Aaah, too good to last forever.

>>92686958
Well but he is right and not the only with that opinion.

>>92691455
I will always and forever love this image.

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>>92691303
>Erica Henderson got an Eisner.
This right here, more than anything else anyone could ever say, is more than enough proof that the Eisner's dont mean jack fucking shit anymore.

>>92686868
But I've been actually enjoying most of the books of DC and not the Marvel ones, I've read indie stuff but I like DC more, am I wrong because it???

>>92691303
Fuck, what was the award for?

>>92687362
Call me /pol/ or w/e but with all the terrorist attacks lately and other crimes committed by muslims, be it refugees or not, I couldn't be more put off by Ms Marvel, whose writer has a big problem of whitewashing Islam as a whole.

>>92693083
It's not a easy conversation to have, just like Black on Black crime, especially right now when people outright refuse to have conversations about difficult topics

>>92686551
Would Civil War 2 have sucked less if Captain America had said "btw kill all niggers and vote republican?"

Marvel just sucks. Retailers have said that diversity isn't what scares readers off- its bad characters replacing everyvody while endless events and relaunches happen

>>92693083
>>92693442
I think it's a perfectly fine thing to have a YA book avoiding a tough topic. What's more riddiculous is that the topic is untouchable by the entirety of the big two, plus or minus some disposable fanatic mooks in the middle east.

>Black on Black crime
Handled many times, usually by having a black hero lead. Luke Cage has loads of these stories

We're guaranteed to see a dozen more stories about racist rednecks, or klan members, or punching nazis before we see the Pulse Club or Charlie Hebbo or the concert bombing.

Fuck. We've had enough concert bombings that we need to disambiguate between them.

>>92689028
this anon knows what's up. Carol in HR is his co-conspirator

>>92693697
I can't expect this from the public at this point but I hope that worldwide intelligencias are aware of the fact that Islam is a cult that is designed from the ground up on silently achieving critical mass before taking over and installing Sharia law. If you read how the Quran is structured, spelling out clearly what you have to tell infidels (vs. what you actually have to do when Islam takes over) it's fucking terrifying.

>>92692930
I believe it was for mutli-media art, but I could be wrong.

I also believe she's being nominated again this year?

>>92693697
Maybe it's an time frame thing. Black issues in Black communities is something that has been discussed for a long time, and disgustingly glorified in our media (ex:movies about black gang culture and why it's cool). Muslims only really got heat after 9/11 and it never really died down. Plus, there aren't a lot of movies about Muslim culture that are in the public mind set.

What I'm getting at is I think because no one has really talked European Muslims, people are still afraid to.

>>92693083
/pol/ or not, you do have a valid point. Ms. Marvel certainly did a hell of a lot of whitewashing when it came to Islam

I think that's one of the things I liked about the new GL run. Baz is a Muslim, and part of his story is he was wrongfully arrested on terrorism charges, but at no point does it ever say that Muslim Terrorism isn't a thing. And one of the underlying things that does pop up every now and then, subtly, is "well, he's a Muslim with a Lantern Ring. The fuck happens if he decides to radicalize?" and him trying not to give into the anger that would make him do just that.

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>>92686339
>For the past YEAR it has been fully co-opted by people like Nick Spencer to turn it into a Idealogical neo-progressive shovelware shitshow with only the movies doing anything good. How has /co/ been dealing with this replacement theory come true?
... past year you say?

>>92693972
She's up for Jughead and Squirrel girl again in Humor and ages 13-17.

Chelsea Cain is up for best Writer and new Series

Eisner Awards are hipster trash. I don't read a lot of non-capshit books, but you're saying Marvel's best book out from last year was Mockingbird?!

King's Vision is in best limited though so that rocks. But I just don't agree that DC didn't have a single best continuing series.

>>92694132
I thought Priest's Deathstroke is getting a nod too?

>>92686551
Your prime example is a prime example of horrible writing instead of diversity. It's only proving >>92686397 correct.

No one who has been reading comics for a long time would care if Iron Man got replaced, because he's been replaced before. The issue is that the setup for the replacement is rushed and insincere. Riri's appearances in Iron Man barely show why she should be the new Iron Man other than being like Tony. She barely interacted with Tony before she became Ironheart, and all it was was Tony being impressed with what she was able to build.

What's an even bigger problem is that by creating Riri, Bendis ends up inadvertently comparing Riri to James Rhodes, whom Bendis also killed off for shock value. And that just ends up making the comparisons more glaring.

>>92694171
It is.

>>92694059
I read GL but do you know what the public view of Baz is? The media labeled him a terrorist and excaped prisoner. I don't remember them catching the guy, so...did the US government just drop it?

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>>92686397
>The issue isn't diversity, fans embraced Kamala.

I'd embrace the fuck out of Kamala.

>>92694132
>but you're saying Marvel's best book out from last year was Mockingbird?!

Dude. Corgis. LMAO.

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>>92694101
You know things are fucked when Crusher Creel is the voice of reason.

>>92686397

>The issue isn't politics, because the best Cap runs were grounded in issues of the day.

False equivalence, not only is the politics of the 2010s nothing at all like the politics of the 1940s the KINDS of political shit that being tackled by comics now is also completely different, as is the tone it is being tackled in

>>92694326
How long has Jane Foster had cancer now? Wasn't her gimmick the more she becomes Thor, the more she aggravates her own Cancer?

>>92694369
>nothing at all like the politics of the 1940s

He wasn't talking about the politics of the 1940s, casual.

>>92686339

It's the lazy shoehorning of diversity that pisses me off. I have no problem with the Milestone way as they're new characters. What Marvel does is just incredibly lazy and frankly, if I were a "minority" myself, I'd be pissed that the best Marvel could offer me is a white male hero's fucking mantle. Nothing new, no efforts at all. New company slogan should have been All Old, But More Brown instead of ANAD

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>>92693978
>Muslims only really got heat after 9/11 and it never really died down. Plus, there aren't a lot of movies about Muslim culture that are in the public mind set.

There was LOADS of shit from the 1970's, and 80's about middle eastern terrorism, plane hijackings, and the shit that hit the headlines back then. Granted, the black civil rights issues date back to the 50's, so there's still a time factor involved. But radical islamists are going full supervillian death trap mode in real life on homosexuals, and we have LESS of that in the comics than we had just 30 years ago.

Whatever time factor is involved is heavily outweighted by political factors.

>>92694231
I haven't been reading much of it, while the book is OK, it's not as good as his dogfucking book. But even if the JLA vouches for him to the president or interpol or whatever, we should still see the Arab world's reaction to him. I could imagine them shitting on him for being a crappy muslim, or trying to recruit him, or begging him for help because the Israelis are bullying them, or even dressing like him and allahing people's ackbars.

>Shut the fuck up with the death to america shit. I'm from Michigan. I don't even speak arabic!

>>92694466
Cancer doesn't kill you instantly and I guess is paused when she's Thor. Plus she has been getting treatments, it just happens that when she needs to be thor, in wips the effects if she was treated in...idk some time frame.

Also, I'm pretty sure theirs an issue which shits on people with cancer for being week.

>>92694567
It's not always shit. FalCap makes sense and I felt he SHOULD be the next Cap and before Secret Wars, it was a fun book. What I don't like is the heavy handedness of the blacks and cops angel they took. The book could have been a real look at diversity and their mistreatment against police. Instead, the we got shoehorned in the AmeriCorps as a lazy stand in for a real issue.

Rereading what you wrote, I realized that your 100% right. Even the good stuff became shit.

>>92694602
I was born in the 90s so I missed a lot of Muslim oppression.

>>92694882
Because of the flip flops during the cold war, a lot of it is actually shit like helping the Mujahadeen and islamic fundamentalists fight against the commies, ala Rambo 3.

And of course, there's always the designated "good muslims" that are oppressed in the issue of the week.

>>92694882
>FalCap makes sense and I felt he SHOULD be the next Cap and before Secret Wars, it was a fun book.

Word. It was Sam vs Hydra shenanigans. Then they turned his book into BLM the Comic. Who the fuck wants to read about that?

>>92694882
>>92695150
This. FalCap was one of the very few diversity legacies that felt legitimate; a genuine legacy that just happened to be a minority, as opposed to a diversity hire introduced as a forced legacy to boost interest off of a pre-existing fanbase. His book used to feel like it as well, but it didn't take long before he became just another virtue signalling socjus mouthpiece.

The most infuriating thing about it is how disappointing it all is. These books have every potential to be good, but good writing and actual character development are too hard for current Marvel. Easier to just slap a minority into a mantle and force the universe to bend over for them, because anyone who disagrees with what Marvel is having their own characters parrot is a racist/sexist/whateverist shitlord.

There's no excuse for this shit.

>>92694882
>It's not always shit. FalCap makes sense

It's one of the few replacements I'm fine with but then again I was never a huge Cap fan in the first place. But at least, Sam didn't pop out of nowhere, he's been Cap's sidekick/friend for years so he kinda deserved that promotion at some point. What bothers me is RiRi coming out of fucking nowhere nowhere and being all like "lmao Stark is a chump I'm literally smarter than this motherfucker and I'm a 15 year old black girl, tee-hee". This is just insulting and they're just ticking diversity boxes at this point. In a few arcs she'll be kissing girls, because that's like, super progressive and totally not because they're virtue signalling. At the same time I'm conflicted cause it's old fashioned power fantasy escapism only this time it's not aimed at me so maybe that's why it looks inauthentic to me.

>>92694882
>Muslim Oppression

It really wasn't "Muslim oppression." It was a mix of "support Muslims against the Commies," and an acknowledgement that "holy shit, these Muslim guys get fucking violent and evil."

You have to remember during that time there was a good bit of Muslim terrorism, it's just that most of it was aimed at the USSR. But there was stuff that affected Western Europe, the US, and especially Israel.

Talking about a groups violent actions as bad isn't oppression.

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>>92689894
Didn't Punisher spend his last days on Earth in Iraq fighting ISIS?

>>92689916
I disgree, Spencer writes fascists pretty well. It's why the SJWs hate him, he can make a good case for the far right but he can't make a good case for his own side.

>>92687258

Why isn't "would you go back in time and kill Karl Marx?" a thing? It would save so many more lives than killing Hitler would.

>>92691303
Mockingbird had 6 great issues and 2 absurdly shitty ones.

> Also, Mockingbird only became a best seller due to the writers screaming "abuse" online.

She didn't. Other people cried abuse for her, and she told them to stop making such a big deal of it.

>>92690362
Eh, the lesbians are minor side characters, and made out to be the ones in the wrong, too.

>>92690314
>So Kamala's comics aren't SJW-preachy?

Most of them are really good. The most political it got was Fasutuas Hipster son gentrification villain.

Even the election issue had actual correct legal advice.

>>92690296
>Notice how the whole HydraCap thing only escalated to "no he's the real Steve Rogers and now he can hold Mjolnir and holy shit things are looking bad" after Trump won.

That wasn't the plan all along?

>>92694231
>so...did the US government just drop it?
I think they jut dropped it.
I don't think I'm imagining him getting a visit from one of the G-Men that arrested him and told him that they realized it was a fuck up.
And as for the public at large, there hasn't been any feedback yet.

>>92687496

Nobody likes to talk about it, but the exact point that the X-Men stopped being Marvel's top franchise and sales started slipping was when they started focusing on making mutants more like "a real minority group", instead of the X-Men being mainly about costumed soap-opera and exciting super-battles for the fate of the world.

Ever since then, it's been "us against the majority" identity politics even when it got more action-focused again. If you're part of that majority, it's clearly not "for" you anymore.

>>92694602
>>Shut the fuck up with the death to america shit. I'm from Michigan. I don't even speak arabic!

>implying Dearborn isn't Little Riyadh

>>92695150
>>92696834
FalCap made more sense then Bucky as Cap.

>>92686339

Bait-O-Meter: 6 out of 10

Nice use of concern trolling, though that little comment about the mods to make yourself look all edgylord was kinda clumsy. Still, it's always good to see a little low-key styling over blatant rants or juvenile sniggering. A solid effort.

>>92686749
>They turned captain america, essentially speaking, a symbol for patriotism and freedom into a permanently hypocritical nazi. It's neo-progressive as the ideals of americanism and capitalism IS anti-progressive.
He was corrupted by a Nazi literally warping reality to make him evil, and even then he's still shown to retain some of his goodness.

>>92687912

I have a theory that this is a big part of the problem. Create an all-new character, without replacing someone else, without taking something away, and you stand more chance of that character being accepted and embraced by readers.

But there seems to be an ideology that to be making "progress", you also have to be taking something away from straight White men. Who are expected to just shut up and accept losing whatever is taken from them "because shut up, you already have everything, you have plenty of other characters to like instead".

The end result is more and more of the longtime paying audience walking away, and the new target audience are not replacing them in enough numbers.

>>92690258

It's actually worse than that.

Reed Richards build a space-rocket, portals to other dimensions, and unstable-molecule clothing.

Doctor Doom built a time-machine, a portal to Hell, lots of advanced weapons, and armies of robots, plus a few fully sentient robots.

Moon Girl solved the superhero equivalent of the Rubik Cube, this is her feat that proves she's smarter.

>>92690505

Exactly. Punisher taking on ordinary human criminals is fine. Punisher taking on costumed supervillains, killing them, and making it look easy, is terrible, and always will be.

>>92698015
>insulting the mods is edgy
And so, the board crossed the event horizon.

>>92698507
I didn't say it was *successfully* edgy...

>>92690258
>>92698414

Nah I understand the point you guys are trying to make but RiRi building her own Iron Man suit is an "accomplishment" but it doesn't make it any less of an asspull. It's still forced and gimmicky. After all, a character is only as intelligent as its writer

>>92698561
You type like a faggot. kys irl

>>92689603
I've read and enjoyed the whole built up for Hydra Cap.

I still point out that doing this as not an elseworlds/what-if stories will permanently damage the character in the long run OR they do it away with it via handwave plot MacGuffin that mindwipes everyone and makes everything be like before which would be weak, lame sauce shit that would cheapen the story in the end.

It's a lose-lose situation that Nick Spencer created himself and it deserves criticism.

>>92698414
If you read her book (something very few people do) she excels at DIY super science. She made weapons out of soda bottles and loudspeakers, and built her own rocketship, helicopter backpack, and terrigen cloud detecting device out of junk from a scrap yard.

Her whole theme seems to be "what you can with what you got" versus Reed and Pyms slicker science and Doom's sorcerer inspired decor.

>>92697704
>I disgree, Spencer writes fascists pretty well. It's why the SJWs hate him, he can make a good case for the far right but he can't make a good case for his own side.

Spencer appears to be a mainstream-Left-winger, who supported Hilary Clinton, and genuinely believes she is "a good person who wanted to help people". He hates the far-Left, Bernie-supporters and SJWs as much as he hates the Right.

It's possible he's one of those guys who's aware that the far-Left are getting so insane, and so annoying, and don't have any endgame, they're just going to keep getting louder and angrier, that they're pushing more and more normies to the Right in reaction, and that's why he won't give them a positive portrayal.

In contrast, he clearly understands Right-wing beliefs and arguments well enough to articulate them, but he keeps putting them in the mouths of evil villains, so "if you agree with any of this, you're a Nazi too".

>>92698235

>But there seems to be an ideology that to be making "progress", you also have to be taking something away from straight White men. Who are expected to just shut up and accept losing whatever is taken from them "because shut up, you already have everything, you have plenty of other characters to like instead".

Why did they honestly think that's a good business sense?

>>92699192

They probably know it's not, and do it anyway, because pushing the ideology is more important to them than making money.

>>92698866

Those things aren't why she's being called the smartest person in the world, though. That's entirely on her solving some "unsolvable" puzzle-game that Bruce Banner made.

>>92698866
>what you can with what you got
Which would be pretty cool if she wasn't a sociopath and being forced down our throats to accept that she's the smartest Marvel character.
Say, she looked at one of Reed's patents, or watched a bunch of footage from a battle to figure out how one of his gizmos worked, then spent the night riffling through everyone's garbage and haggling with the junkyard owner or sneaking through the fence to get the parts to make her own version, instead of solving a Wiimote and delivering that goddamned speech from America.

>>92686804
Yeah but liberalism used to be just fine when it was for free speech and against censoring, which back then came from soccer moms and the religious right. Liberalism stopped being liberal, now they are authoritarian, censorship loving and demanding, white male hating, science denying cuckholds. The fringe left has always been nuts but the cool left has evaporated and the loonies are all that's left.

>>92699192
There's a sort of logic in it.
They see that their core audience is a niche market.
They see the current social and political tide, and decide to ride it for all it's worth, to try to tap into the demographics outside of their niche.
Whether or not they realized they were actively alienating their moneymakers, I'm not sure, but they were just trying to expand their market in the most retarded way possible.

>>92699302

It's stupid because I thought diversity is supposed to bring everyone together. That "taking away from the white man" thing sounds like petty vengeance, punishing people who had nothing to do with their crusade.

>>92699638

So it was a move to expand their horizons while backfiring in the most hilarious way possible. Sounds like the Nintendo Wii, only not as fun.

>>92697840
>Mockingbird had 6 great issues and 2 absurdly shitty ones.

Nigga, it was all shit. /Especially/ the shitty Corgi jokes.

>>92691268
This. Marvel is fundamentally flawed at the moment and the only way for it to change is if something drastic happens.

>>92686551
But Captain Hydra is cool as shit. The rest sucks, I agree.

>>92686823
>actually a corporate cheerleader
Embarrassing.

>>92686339
>For the past YEAR

nigga have you been asleep for the past five years?

>>92686858
It was the death of Multiverse 7 and the birth of multiverse 8, which is where All-New All Different picked up.

>>92699638

It's not the first time Marvel tried to turn their back on their existing audience, and reach out to another one, the Bill Jemas era had a lot of reaching out to people who read indy and Vertigo comics, instead of the traditional superhero audiences. But they were still reaching out to people who actually read comics.

Marvel is instead aiming at an audience that isn't showing up in the numbers they need them to. If they did any market research at all, this wouldn't be happening.

>>92690169
Another good one is God loves man kills

>>92697933
Yeah, part of the appeal of mutants is that they could stand in for ANYONE who felt oppressed, ignored, or ill treated.

>>92686339
>There are more than 5 black characters!
>This is pandering!
Grow up.

>>92697840
>Mockingbird had 6 great issues
what were those?

>>92686958
I think it has a lot to do with Marvel attempting to grab headlines. Many people myself included don't care about diversety one way or the other. I just think Marvel is being super disingenuous when it comes to its "push for diversity". It all seems to cater to headlines.
> "ZOMG you WONT believe what Marvel did with its new _____"
They're not pleasing any side.
Comfyfags want iron man and hulk to stay the same forever while new "diverse" readers don't get what they want either.
If marvel hired good staff and focused on telling good stories about their characters that people love while introducing new minority characters under actually good creative talent their problems would go away over night.

>>92700638

There's a lot of truth in that. Whatever they may say, many of these changes exist for the sake of publicity stunts.

Replacing a superhero for the sake of a publicity stunt, and a short-term storyline, is something that has been happening for decades, and most fans are used to it.

What's different now, is how instead of it being in one book at a time, it's happening to almost everyone at the same time, it's going on for years and years, with no endgame in sight, unlike the old days, where these replacements tended to last under 2 years, and the degree to which they're trying to push the replacement characters by dumping on the originals.

"The new Thor can use Mjolnir better than the old Thor ever could!"

"Kate Bishop, the REAL Hawkeye!"

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>>92700638
>If marvel hired good staff and focused on telling good stories about their characters that people love while introducing new minority characters under actually good creative talent their problems would go away over night.

That was basically the 70s, and 80s Marvel.
Many iconic female and minority heroes came from that time. Hell X-men became a bread and butter for it. Giant size X-men #1 had a black woman, Japaneses man (consider the times) a Soviet (Muslims of the 1960s/1970s) and a gypsy (at the time before the retcon) all save the original all white team. No one even then caught it or was outraged because they made a solid narrative and didn't out right undo the old team for it, it felt more like a wedding where more heroes and villains of all sexes, races and types were brought into the family to share that world together. Now Marvel is more like a court system, punishing anything that isn't a minority while exonerating all minority heroes.

>>92688014
KSD's run had a strong start that was critically well received and still sells a shitload of trades, the relaunches are what killed it.

Also sales drop off like a rock after the first trade, no one buys volume 2.

>>92686339
its simple really

theyre all gimmick and no substance.

events upon events. constant renumbering issues. forced legacy characters.

really the sjw pandering is only a small part of it, its really just an ongoing effort by them to alienate their customers, and its been happening for years . top dogs at marvel have said that pissing off readers boost sales and it did, until we got wise to it and sick of it.

they have tried every trick in the industry to get sales so many times, that they literally dont work anymore.

like em or not, marvel has no "watchmen" no "dark knight rises" and no "all star superman". theyve got some good stories throughout the years, but none hold a candle to the 3 I just listed in terms of popularity

all of that on top of price increase. which is fucking ridiculous. I paid 6 dollars for a Vader comic published by marvel. it was good but it took less than 10 minutes to read. I can get an easy 10 minutes of entertainment off youtube for free.

>>92699192
because, i think on some level, they don't even recognize the humanity of the "straight white men." I mean, they consider them "nazis" when they speak up, and almost no one considered nazis to be human.

They don't connect that there's actual people. They just see "SWM" and decide "fuck those nazis, we're for people, and the only people out there are the oppressed."

>>92701306

This is where "privilege theory" gets us all. Used to be that "racism" and "prejudice" were something you did, and you got slapped down and punished if you did it.

Now it's something you inherently are, nothing you can do can change that, so please just quietly die out and let "the oppressed" replace you and take over.

Nobody thought this through and realised that it means that this kind of logic means that basic decency is the only reason not to actually become Nazis. And basic decency can only hold out so long in the face of people who hate you.

TL:DR version: "most of us don't want to become /pol/ but the longer this goes on, the more people won't see any reason not to."

>>92701139

>pissing off readers boost sales

I still don't understand the psychology behind how this works/worked so fucking well, especially in the Superior Spider-Man days.

>>92702286

Brevoort insists angry readers mean more sales, and he's been doing it at least as far back as 1998-9.

An "Avengers Casefile" book from the time had issue summaries and behind the scenes trivia, including the fact that they were deliberately intending to make Vision fans angry with a story where he gets cuckolded. His fans had to have been a small percentage of the overall Avengers audience, yet they thought this was a good idea.

Since then, he moved up to events like Civil War and AvX trying to pit fandom against each other, as well as keeping the Spider-Man and X-Men fans in a state of permanent anger.

>>92702286
because people are stupid and like things that make them angry

this political climate is evidence enough of that

people LOVE to get pissed off

>>92686339
Marvel is collapsing, comics aren't as profitable as they used to be, but they keep pumping them out at the rate they were in the 90's.

Disney doesn't care, as long as the movies make bank, then they'll let Perlmutter and co do whatever they want.

>>92686397
This too

I reduse to read marvel because all i see about it is that its an sjw shitshow lamblasting the white characters and forcing these douchbag minority characters. What should i read from dc instead?

>>92702090
exactly.

on a personal level, I never really gave any fucks about what anyone was. But these days, it gets harder and harder not to just Nazi, because it's not like any of them recognize my humanity, so why should I grant them humanity either?

haven't gone all the way yet, but each racist act (and terrorist bombing) make it just that much closer.

>>92702690
people love to be pissed off when they feel they're in the Right.

>>92703528
almost anything.

even the stuff with minority characters doesn't shit on white people.

Personally, I can confirm that Superman (& Son) is super comfy, and Aquaman was a fun read that actually left me happy afterwards. GL and Hal Jordan are both decent books too.

>>92686397
Ms. Mohammad sucks.
Only Islamic terrorists are pushing her here.

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>>92698866
They would have been better off explicitly pushing the "junkyard/toybox queen" angle you describe, and just have her build cool WTF shit, rather than the shit that they did with the puzzle.

I mean compare what they did with Cho, where the other big brains of the Marvel U didn't just roll over and praise his shit, but actually challenged him, just as they do each other.

I agree that she's a LOT worse in her crossover appearances, especially the America chavez one. But even that's better than the drek with Riri and Iron man. That shit is so terrible and close enough to moon girl that it makes her look worse by being too close.

Pic related. It's ON bitch.

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>>92705487
Cho had his quiz show thing, but that's not going to stop him from getting pymp slapped.

>>92686339
So stop buying Marvel comics until they clean up their act.

>>92686339
How have they been regarding bird law?

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The issues isn't even shoehorning diversity. Its that the people at Marvel have no idea on how to write characters and now are desperately trying to get the Millennial to read comic books.

Its more Poochie-like than a political agenda or whatever.

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>>92699719
>hating Corgis

Have you no soul?

>>92686551
Agreed 100% anon. Marvel desperately needs to gut their current staff and get people who aren't pants-on-head retarded/social justice oriented.

>cancelled Nova
>as if that wasn't enough, cancelled Nova's generations book, leaving everyone else's ready to release

fuckkkk marvel

>>92689028
I think you're onto something.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=peUe-82Qgs4

>>92686397
It's the mentality of making shit for tumblr, MCU fans or if you're lucky like with recent Iron Fist, a little mix of old school with a bit of mcu fluff

One of the biggest stand outs is that there's no real experimental books, everything is too safe.

This era of Marvel would never do a X-Statix or Nextwave due to pandering to the groups mentioned.

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>>92686339
In essence, it comes down to a good PR department and more contained events. Case in point, the debacle at Marvel where they said that the reason their sales were slumping and that they said that the diversity characters were causing it and where they quickly backtracked and blamed the consumers. They also have very little control over their writers, especially where they might get over their head (i.e. twitter, facebook, snapchat, etc).

The other Problem is that they seemingly rely solely on events to push their books as of late. How many "world breaking" events have we had? Civil War, Secret War, Disassembled, and now the latest debacle that is Secret Empire. Not to sound like a fanboy, but at least when DC has events, they have very little effect on the main characters books (Save for Wally coming back). With Marvel, ALL if not most of their books get bogged down with the event and most of the Audience feels alienated and cannot keep track.
If Marvel really wants to improve their image they need less events, better (or at least more cogent) writers with a better understanding of what lies at the core of the character, and more editors to wrangle in their shitposters.

Is that about the jist of it /co/?

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>>92707510
The Corgis weren't the problem. It was the lazy as fuck writing, just tossing a glorified reddit image gallery of them in there.

>>92707122
The comics use diversity like Poochie uses radical.

>>92708474
>Case in point, the debacle at Marvel where they said that the reason their sales were slumping and that they said that the diversity characters were causing it and where they quickly backtracked and blamed the consumers.

And here's why it's going to be so difficult for them to ever back down and get rid of new characters that don't sell because no-one likes them.

People who don't even read comics will crucify them on social media and keep a sustained bullying campaign going until they surrender.

Last time they backtracked in less than 24 hours.

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>>92686397
Identity politics is part of the problem.

All the new diverse characters suck because giving minorities flaws is racist.