If Avatar proved so successful with western audiences, why haven't

Money
Avatar was successful but not as successful as Spongebob Squarepants

>>92652462
>The only recent western cartoons I can think of that fit this criteria would be Steven Universe
That's why.

>>92652462
Because that requires effort, talent, and can very well go to shit if you write something stupid. It's easier to just make TTG style shows.

>>92652462
They TRIED.

You cant remember? The thing is that they were mostly awful.

Thundercats is an example.

Because when they tried again it failed. CN especially tried really hard on catching Avatar's lightning in a bottle with shows like Green Lantern, Secret Saturdays, Young Justice and Storm Hawks but for one reason or another they had low sales. Even when Nick decided to recreate that magic with Korra, it failed so hard they had to release the last season online instead of airing it.

So the answer really is that shows like that AREN'T popular with western audiences. Avatar was a freak of nature that somehow managed to survive. Trying to figure out why that worked then but not now is debated, but my theory is that with the greater capabilities of computers today most pre-teens/adult audiences which these show's attract simply stream or download these episodes then watching it on television, thus the network doesn't get ratings and the sponsors are getting upset.

>>92652462
Because 11 minute episodes of bullshit that can repeat endlessly is cheaper, easier and keeps the attention of ADHD children.

Because kids preferences in cartoons changed. Shows like Adventure Time were the new mold others would try to copy.

I still hope Nick will decide one day to give the Avatar series another go when they realize they're putting out nothing but shit anymore.

>>92652611
>Green Lantern
>Young Justice
I hate the practice of cancelling a show because of toy sales, especially when I never see any of the fucking figures.

You know how much I love Young Justice's Blue Beetle design?
Enough that I'd buy every figure I could get my hands on.

>>92652462
Because episodic 12-minute comedy flash animations are easier to make.

>>92652462
>The only recent western cartoons I can think of that fit this criteria would be Steven Universe, Young Justice, Wakfu, Clone Wars/Rebels and Venture Bros.

There's a lot more than just those. Spectacular Spider-Man, Symbionic Titan, Tron: Uprising, Green Lantern, Beware the Batman, Thundercats 2011, Voltron, Legend of Korra, Kulapari, Trollhunters, etc.

I guess programmers just think that serialized cartoons aren't friendly to rerun. They'd confuse kids and stuff. Though Netflix is more open to serialized storytelling for binging, to the point where even comedies like Bojack, F is for Family, and All Hail King Julien are doing it.

>>92652690

Exactly, it's a shitty business model. Most of the fans who actually follow the show on a weekly basis don't really go to fucking Toys-R'-Us that much.

Put out some good video games, some online merch, or get something other than toy companies to sponsor your channel. It's not the fucking 80s anymore.

I remember ATLA had some pretty decent vidya, I'm sure that helped a lot.

>>92652852

A lot of those aren't really serialized, they're just episodic shows with some continuity to it.

That's really what kills these shows for me, the NEED to wrap up an episode's story by the end of the episode, or at most making a two parter. Just give me a continuous story arc that flows naturally from one episode to the next, why is that so hard to do?

>>92652499
The first Avatar was 1 million per episode but most of that was either spent on plane trips to China or on Mako's/Mark Hamill's/Tress MacNeille's pay check and cost more to make then other cartoons of it's day.

Korra on the other hand was only $200,000 to $300,000 per episode for the Mir episodes of books 1 to 3, the later because Mir wanted more money, book 4 however was only $90,000 a episode, Korra's budget cheap enough to improve everything else not only to Korra but enough to get near feature quality animation back as was the case in the 80s & 90s.

Pierrot's episodes however were $800,000 a episode due to Japanese animators get paid more then Korean animators but since Mir did a better job and was cheaper Pierrot was fired and Mir was bought back.

Voltron:LD is only $90,000 a episode and is the only cartoon streaming new of days that is even trying, as well as the fact that everything else is $10,000 a episode at best, some times $20,000-40,000 if the show is ditched over seas to places like Korea, Taiwan, The Philippines and China but seeing what VLD is doing with only $90,000 a episode, $500,000 will bring near back feature quality animation done by AAA Japanese studios again, just like in the 80s & 90s.

At a million a episode it should not only stay in the States but it should mostly be animated on 1s (24FPS) as well, matching that to Tex Avery & Bob Clampett.
>>92652611
None of those shows were trying to ape Avatar due to being flat & lifeless.

Granted, Green Lanturn was CG and Young Justice did have some construction, but they lacked the effort that Avatar had and Avatar was still amateur hour and American networks don't use sponsors anymore (99% of the time), American networks use their own money from their own wallets to fund the shows themselves, this is not Japan.

>>92652462
because it didn't sell toys. That's all they give a shit about.

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>>92652462
>Steven Universe, Young Justice, Wakfu, Clone Wars/Rebels and Venture Bros
What you're looking for are animesque cartoons.

Questions of quality aside, SU much like SVTFOE is an anime *parody* in some ways. Venture Bros is a parody too, but not of anime. YJ, and really CW as well, are typical capeshit. Honestly, the only one on that list that even remotely qualifies is Wakfu, but I'm not aware of many (good?) animes based on video games.

True animesque series include Teen Titans, TMNT 2003, and I'd argue the criminally underrated 2004 Batman series as well. (Ben 10 could qualify too except that the writing is worse than that of any mainstream anime I know of.)

>>92652852
None of those shows are any good however.

What hurts me the most is that SBT was supposed to be made by TMS before Genndy rejected what they were doing, delayed the show by a year, retool the show and replace the god-tier TMS with hacks who can't do good timing and can't pose to save their life (Rough Draft), If Genndy replaced TMS with JM before they left to form Mir instead Titan will still be airing just like Adventure Time (and let JM do what ever the fuck they wanted, just like when TMS was running it before CN fired them for costing too much).

Nobody wants Bojack, F is for Family, and All Hail King Julien, they want The Great Piggy Bank Robbery, A Gruesome Twosome and Tortoise Wins by a Hare and if you can't match up to those 3 cartoons (or surpass them as is the case with Blitz Wolf, What's Buzzin Buzzard? and Red Hot Riding Hood) then you might as well do your project in live action.

>>92652462
Like another anon said, it's extremely difficult to tell a serialized continous story without fucking it up down the road. Avatar was the exception, but even that was largely episodic with some continuty for most of it's first season.

>>92652462
Steven Universe isn't anywhere close to Avatar. It's Adventure Time-lite but slightly more focused on serial storytelling, doesn't fit at all with the rest of those shows.

>>92652937
>A lot of those aren't really serialized, they're just episodic shows with some continuity to it.

Is there a specific difference? I'd argue SU and the earlier episodes of Avatar were more episodic than a lot of those examples?

>>92652672
I wonder about this. Its true that Teen Titans got axed in favor of bonehead comedy Teen Titans Go! the thing is, anime is a thing. and a huge one, at that. Crunchyroll has over a million paying subscribers, and Netflix is getting on more and more production committees.

SOMEONE wants serialized action shows. Why aren't Western companies stepping up to deliver? obviously a lot of it is apathy. there is a pretty decent list of shows that were very popular, but got canned because they didn't reach their target demographic, or didn't sell enough toys (who the fuck buys toys, anyway?) or just didn't make *enough* money. they made money, but shitty Flash comedies make more, so better put EVERY LAST egg in that basket.

so, a different question: why aren't american kids jumping on western action animation? video games only sell more each year. little kids action shows do alright. Why do kids stop wanting action shows when they start middle school?

>>92653574

Mostly because of the stigma of them being "childish", really. Avatar avoided that by basically being a western-made Anime, which made it cooler than regular cartoons, from a middle-schooler's perspective.

I assume it's a cost/potential risk thing. You can make a Spongebob Squarepants that will be syndicated forever and not confuse kids when it airs. But I never bought that excuse as a kid. I'd watch reruns of anime and not be angry because the story continued. Callbacks and continuity were my favorite stuff. Cause I could point at the screen and go "I remember that episode! Hahaaha! He's back."

There is a hunger for that content, but I am not certain it is enough for companies to listen to. Most great ideas for animated television shows would have a greater return as a live-action show. Essentially any sci-fi/fantasy live-action show would be far stronger as animation, but people will not watch. The best we can hope for is that Samurai Jack opened the door for more adult-oriented animation.

>>92653574
No, we don't, we want intelligent comedies with detail and construction like Tiny Toons & Animaniacs.

Thats what we want, we do NOT want serialized action shows or any action shows for that matter.

>>92653820
>we want intelligent comedies with detail and construction like Tiny Toons & Animaniacs.
We most certainly do not. Those shows are literally for babies.

>>92653574
>Its true that Teen Titans got axed in favor of bonehead comedy Teen Titans Go!
What is this meme?

Teen Titans Go came out years after Teen Titans ended. It's not like they Go! prevented the sixth season.

>>92653831
No they are not, those shows were made for Sakuga fans and Animaniacs was even canceled because they were more adults watching it then kids.

Same with Tiny Toons, we can't suffer anymore.

>>92653854
They could have made the sequel series that someone on the original crew apparently proposed, but they decided to make TTG instead. That's the problem.

>>92653947
They should of rejected that and air more Looney Tunes instead.

>>92653969
How many more decades of Looney Tunes reruns can audiences be expected to endure?

>>92653947
We had enough Teen Titans. 5 seasons and a movie.

>>92653997
The thing is that at the time they barely aired them, also they're intelligent.

>>92654010
There were so many characters introduced in the 5th season, and so many questions left unresolved, that they could have easily kept going with multiple seasons.

>>92652462
it didn't become that popular until after it was over, and it didn't actually make much profit

>>92653774
>Cause I could point at the screen and go "I remember that episode! Hahaaha! He's back."


you could feel like such a fucking boss when you remembered shit no one else did. sigh

>>92654112
>The premiere of Sozin's Comet averaged 5.6 million viewers, 195% more viewers than Nickelodeon had received in mid-July 2007. During the week of July 14, 2008, it ranked as the most-viewed program for the under-14 demographic. The premiere of episodes 52–61 throughout the week of Sozin's Comet 's release received a total of 19 million views, and Avatar reached Neilsen's list of Top 20 Cable Results for the week ending June 20, 2008 four times. It also appeared on iTunes' top ten list of best-selling television episodes during that same week.

>>92654074
>and so many questions left unresolved

Teen Titans was never a show that bothered to answer questions. A lot of stuff like the briefcase and Red X was never meant to have an answer.

>>92654187
The briefcase thing was a gag, but Red X should have got more focus if not necessarily unmasking.
Plus there's the new monster and much more importantly the question of Slade. And Terra.

>>92654112

Nigga what? It was popular as fuck. Toys and video games everywhere, all the kids talked about it in school.

>>92654423
I never heard anyone talk about it in school, they were too bust talking about The Great Piggy Bank Robbery.

>>92654444
Must have been a shit school, then. The Internet is still littered with stories from the 2000s about kids just randomly talking about it in class and stuff.

>>92654508
I was in high school at the time.

>>92654840
Still applies.

>>92652852
>They'd confuse kids and stuff
Why do people think kids are retarded? Or are american kids truly that dense? Nobody had a problem with serialized shows when the anime boom happened.

>>92653087
insightful.

>>92652462

Because I don't even remember a store in my country stocking Avatar toys. I don't even know if there was any.

Cartoons these days are just super long toy adverts with some exceptions acting as super colorful kid distractors so parents can have affairs and shit.

>>92655567
Avatar was only made to cash in on it and the only 2 anime shows I liked were Hamtaro & Kirby Right Back At Ya anyway.
>>92655688
Thank you.
>>92655746
We had this issue in the 80s and it took Mighty Mouse to brake it.

As excellent as Gummi Bears & DuckTales were (not just in their animation but the shows as a whole), Mighty Mouse broke the need to attach toys to cartoons.

In short, we need another Mighty Mouse, out their ranks a little.

>>92652591
>mfw Thundercats had a fucking fantastic pilot with tons of character development/depth and literally dropped all of it by the next episode

I was so pissed

>>92655840
>only made to cash in on it
ALL media (or like 99% of it) is made to "cash in". Do you think TV crews just work for free? Or that companies make shows out of altruism?

>>92657250
Not in the 2nd half of the 80s and 90s.

Also not in the golden age as well.

>>92653574
Perhaps most of the people who want serialized action shows are simply happy with what anime provides?

>>92657347
We don't want serialized action shows, we want inteligent comedies like Animaniacs and that the only reason why we bother with anime is because it has construction.

>>92653876
This is bait. It got amazing ratings with kids

>>92657631
That is true, but more adults were still watching it.

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>>92652462
>And by that I mean shows with more focus on character development and a serialized continuous storyline
1.) This was in western cartoons before Avatar hell in was in Western cartoons even while Avatar was airing (JLU, TT, etc.) its not used often because its a format that's not particularly popular to begin with and one investors don't really look at when a show goes into production, this is a big reason why syndication exists because a show with a episodic run will draw more viewers than ones with a serialized run due to a lack of back tracking because stuff like DVRs and online streaming wasn't as prevalent as they are nowadays.

2.) Avatar was just aping on the popularity of anime it didn't have a unique style nor was it an industry shaker it was just another bandwagoner and by the time the craze ended it was not deemed as special or significant.

3. ) Despite all its praise it was not as successful as people claim, sure it did well but its numbers seem to not justify the cost and time it took to make it and it never actually gave CN or Disney a run for their money since CN had the boy demographic locked thanks to Toonami and Disney's live action was crushing everything. Merchandise wise Avatar did not do well and a lot of its toy line were shelved due to lack of sales, what the series did well in was DVD sales which were strong throughout its run.

It always felt like Nick didn't actually like the series given the shoddy treatment of the last season and of course how Korra was handled despite both of them doing well in the ratings it always seem to get the short end of the stick by company executives.

>Steven Universe
Has the lowest demo for kids on the network
>Young Justice
Was not profitable
>Wakfu
Isn't very popular even in its country of origin, most of its support come from a dedicated group of fans and creators

>>92657631
>It got amazing ratings with kids
I love this meme. Saying any show on Nick got a high demo with kids outside Spongebob is baiting.

>>92657796
He was talking about Animaniacs.

Every few threads some anon starts peddling the Famicom/TMSfag shtick and y'all take the bait every single time. I don't get it.
I also don't get why syndication even fucking matters to the big kids networks. They almost never sell their series to anyone else and they usually take them out of viewing rotations in less than a year after they wrap up. Reruns don't matter because outside of a few workhorses they never rerun most of their series anyway. So why not just throw a bit of money at serialized shows. They don't even have to be super action oriented with incredibly fluid animation. In the end it's the same shit and they wouldn't have lost any more money than whatever show Nick is gonna pull off the schedule two months from now or Disney is gonna shove to their B-list plus package channel.

>>92659065
>I also don't get why syndication even fucking matters to the big kids networks
International syndication. Wanna know why there's a new Ben 10 reboot despite the fact that the franchise stopped being profitable after Alien Force? Apparently the show is a huge sensation in the Middle East and Europe that there's even a theme park made of it hence why it premiered 7 months prior to the US because its still a big deal over there and most of its revenue comes there. So shows that outright bombed in the US like Wabbit and Be Cool Scooby Doo do well in the international market and gain back their profits there even if they never bother to air the rest of the show in the US which is pretty fucked up.