To Grant Morrison, Mark Millar and Mark Waid, the definitive

>>92638392
Here's what Elliot S. Maggin himself had to say:

http://www.slate.com/blogs/quora/2016/08/11/does_clark_kent_become_superman_or_does_superman_become_clark_kent.html

>Answer by Elliot S. Maggin, principal writer of the comic book series, 1971–86:

>Most of the latter-day Superman writers, and several of my own contemporaries, come down on the side of the notion that Clark is the real person and Superman is just what he can do. I don't agree with that at all, and here's why:

>The hero must be the character's best self. When Odysseus appeared at home disguised as a beggar, the big resolution was that he was “really” Odysseus. When young Arthur yanked the sword from the stone what that revealed, even to himself, was that he was the king and always had been. When the prince of Egypt, for just his own sense of rage and righteousness, killed a taskmaster and was banished for taking the side of the slaves, only then did his real origin become clear to those around him. In every classical setting the hero first arrives in disguise, and Superman is, at the very least, our own age's quintessential classical hero.

>>92638444
>Superman is, among many other things, an artist. When the rest of us create a character, that character is as well-defined as we can make him. The comic-book medium gave birth to our own classical hero because only in a medium that crude, whose end product is that apparently unfinished, can a creator so effectively suggest a concept of such endless potency. Clark is a complete creation of Superman, so complete that he's effectively real. Clark is a natural-born citizen. He votes. He has jealousies and shortcomings. He has opinions, real ones that occasionally diverge from those of Superman. They have altogether different spiritual beliefs, for example. Clark has appropriately nerdy hobbies. He scrapbooks, for heaven's sake. He collects his favorite classic TV commercials on DVD. His favorite is the one for the Las Vegas Chamber of Commerce where the old man skips out of the retirement home to meet his grandson in the parking lot (“Hey, Boo-boo”) and rides off for a weekend of gambling and debauchery.

>Superman can't do the stuff Clark can do. Not that he wouldn't if he didn't have a sacred duty to perform, but he can't. So not only is Clark a construct for the purposes of guarding what measure of privacy he requires for his own emotional self-preservation, but Clark is the outlet that allows Superman to do the things that Superman can't do in public. Clark can, and that makes him Superman's saving grace. Clark, the character, doesn't need Superman, but Superman, the real deal, absolutely needs Clark. That's why Superman created Clark and not the other way around. He created Clark and re-creates him every day.

>Every day the president of the United States wakes up and puts on the raiment once worn by Lincoln, and who he really is during the period of his presidency is the president of he United States. And you call him “Mr. President” for the rest of his life.

>>92638467
>When he gets up in the morning, the heavyweight champion of the world, whoever he was when he was born, embodies the mantle once carried by Ali and Louis, and from the moment someone says, “Good morning,” that's who he is, really. I once lost an arm-wrestling contest with Jack Dempsey on the sidewalk outside the 21 Club. He was 76, and I was 22, and do you think the old man would let the swaggering kid win and impress the girl he's with? He couldn't possibly. What he did was damn near break my arm and then said, “Winner gets the redhead, OK?” He was so profoundly “the Champ” that not even his closest friends thought of him as just Jack.

>I once created a thing called Lexcorp. It was just a throwaway word in a story I wrote. But I thought about it for a long time and I was very happy when I came up with the name. It's my name, and every time someone uses it I take a measure of pride in its use. I get to be the guy who first said that eventually Luthor evolves from a super-villain in a prison jump suit with a collection of wacky gizmos in a hidden basement somewhere into a big badass industrialist. Obviously other people have done more with the concept than I ever did. Lexcorp has evolved into a major institution in Superman's continuity and that was through no doing of my own. But I do insist that whenever someone, somewhere mentions the “creation” of Lexcorp, I get the credit, as properly in the continuity Martha and Jonathan Kent certainly get the credit for first creating the concept of Clark Kent. But it is others who refined and continue to build Lexcorp. And every day that he gets up in the morning and goes to work, Superman goes far beyond the Kents' original germ of an idea to build Clark.

>Clark is real. That's the whole brilliance of the concept. But the concept is even more “real” within the context of the storytelling than the storytelling can represent. That's why the character is and thinks of himself as Superman.

I find that their take on it is terrible. Clark is Clark. The Kents raised him as Clark. Superman's a job. Super-powers don't make him what he is.

I hate this take where Clark Kent is a mere mask and Superman is more Kal-El than anything.

>>92638392
could someone storytime Superman #247? its one of my favorite issues ever

also, Millar writes a better Superman than Morrison and Waid

Lois & Clark is the best interpretation of Superman, even Byrne said so

>>92638392
>To Grant Morrison, Mark Millar and Mark Waid, the definitive interpretation of the Superman/Clark Kent dichomoty is the Silver/Bronze Age one, particularly the works of Elliot S. Maggin.
Why don't they write him like that, though?

>>92638392
>To Grant Morrison, Mark Millar and Mark Waid, the definitive interpretation of the Superman/Clark Kent dichomoty is the Silver/Bronze Age one, particularly the works of Elliot S. Maggin.

I think it's definitely true for Millar, but Morrison kind of changed it by the time he was writing All Star Superman and said this in an interview with Newsarama:

"'Superman' is an act. 'Clark Kent' in Metropolis is also an act. There are actually two Kents, at least - one is a disguise, a bumbling, awkward mask for Superman. The other is the confident, strong, good-hearted Clark Kent who was raised by his surrogate Ma and Pa in Kansas and knows how to drive a tractor. I think he's the most 'real' of all. 'Kal El' is where he goes when he wants to escape from his human nature and see things from outside."

>>92638852
And here's Millar's take on Clark and Lois at the time:

"Clark is a pair of glasses. Superman doesn't need glasses. He puts on the glasses for no practical reason; just to dress up and pretend to be this mid-westwern guy he's not as a means of rubbing shoulders with the people on this planet. Superman would have thought he was human until puberty. Until maybe 12. The easiest way to understand it is to think of Jesus in the temple and the moment where his mother has to tell him the truth. He always knew he was different and alone. This is when it was all explained to him. He could still love his parents, but Clark is him trying to understand what humans are all about. As Elliot Maggin puts it, Clark Kent is a living, breathing work of art."

"Superman doesn't love Lois. Clark loves Lois and Superman tries HARD to love Lois, but he can't because she's the wrong species. But he tries. Again, Maggin sums it up beautifully. It doesn't have to be complicated... Clark loves Lois, Lois loves Superman, Superman loves Clark [...] Perfect. This is also one of the reasons Superman shouldn't be married to Lois. It's just stupid. It makes no sense and destroys the whole dynamic. Superman is God, Jor-El is the Holy Spirit and Clark Kent is Jesus. The Kents are Mary and Joseph and Lois is Mary Magdelene. She's the NYC girl who's fucked her way around the city and found nobody who measures up. She's just had it with men and is focusing on her career... then Superman shows up. This is why Margot Kidder was perfect for the role and why Lois should be played by someone around 30 even if Supes is being played by a 25 year old. You'll see what I mean when we fix it."

Every time i see writers or readers saying Superman is the real deal and Clark Kent is a mere mask that he uses to fool everyone around him from his obvious chadness or to enjoy the little things that normal humans do i feel that they feel that way because they don''t like the idea of Superman being just a regular dude at heart. They want Superman to be the real deal, the real macho man. Nothing of this lame Clark Kent bullshit.

That's how i feel.

>>92638392
I think being lonely or feeling like an outsider NEVER made Superman compelling. The Snyderverse is a pretty solid testament to that.

My Superman will always be the '85-'99 one, and I find takes like Millar's to be deplorable.

>>92638918
>Lois is Mary Magdelene. She's the NYC girl who's fucked her way around the city and found nobody who measures up. She's just had it with men and is focusing on her career... then Superman shows up.
It sounds more like Millar is in love with Superman and doesn't want that slut Lois getting together with his husbando.

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>>92638918

>"Superman doesn't love Lois. Clark loves Lois and Superman tries HARD to love Lois, but he can't because she's the wrong species. But he tries. Again, Maggin sums it up beautifully. It doesn't have to be complicated... Clark loves Lois, Lois loves Superman, Superman loves Clark [...] Perfect. This is also one of the reasons Superman shouldn't be married to Lois. It's just stupid. It makes no sense and destroys the whole dynamic. Superman is God, Jor-El is the Holy Spirit and Clark Kent is Jesus. The Kents are Mary and Joseph and Lois is Mary Magdelene. She's the NYC girl who's fucked her way around the city and found nobody who measures up. She's just had it with men and is focusing on her career... then Superman shows up. This is why Margot Kidder was perfect for the role and why Lois should be played by someone around 30 even if Supes is being played by a 25 year old. You'll see what I mean when we fix it."

Jesus fuck, man. This exactly the kind of take i hate. It makes Superman out to look like a sociopath. Real American Psychopath kinda of stuff.

>You'll see what I mean when we fix it

THANK GOD the Superman 2000 pitch was turned down at the time. This would have been worse than Spider Man's One More Day,

>>92638727
This. I want to say look at the Justice League, especially the Christmas Special. He goes home and he isn't Superman. He's Clark Kent, the only son of the Kents, born and raised farm boy. Superman is Clark Kent's responsibility.

>>92639064
>THANK GOD the Superman 2000 pitch was turned down at the time. This would have been worse than Spider Man's One More Day,

That wasn't in the Superman 2000 pitch. Millar's stuff mentioned above is the one he was working on after the 2000 pitch got rejected:


>On the previous pitch Millar had made with Grant Morrison, Mark Waid and Tom Peyer: "The pitch we did was very late 90s and all the things I WOULDN'T do if Superman was being revamped now. It was nice, but it was the whole retro 60s thing that Grant's into as opposed to what I'd want to do myself. This thing was pretty good, but would be absolutely wrong for now. It still had Superman married to Lois and all that shit. There was another draft Mark Waid added with Earth getting a mind-wipe to forget that stuff and it had some nice touches, but I'd just start from scratch."

When he said "we" in this case, he meant him and Bryan Hitch.

>tfw you like both versions

>>92639127

Man, Mark Millar has a real problem with Lois Lane.

>>92638727
This. Clark is not a mask. Clark is Kal El, Clark is Superman.

>>92638918
>"Superman doesn't love Lois. Clark loves Lois and Superman tries HARD to love Lois, but he can't because she's the wrong species. But he tries. Again, Maggin sums it up beautifully. It doesn't have to be complicated... Clark loves Lois, Lois loves Superman, Superman loves Clark [...] Perfect. This is also one of the reasons Superman shouldn't be married to Lois. It's just stupid. It makes no sense and destroys the whole dynamic. Superman is God, Jor-El is the Holy Spirit and Clark Kent is Jesus. The Kents are Mary and Joseph and Lois is Mary Magdelene. She's the NYC girl who's fucked her way around the city and found nobody who measures up. She's just had it with men and is focusing on her career... then Superman shows up. This is why Margot Kidder was perfect for the role and why Lois should be played by someone around 30 even if Supes is being played by a 25 year old. You'll see what I mean when we fix it."
The problem wth Millar is that he is very, very, very, very, VERY catholic and projects Superman into Jesus big time.

To him, seeing Superman flirting is akin to seeing Jesus flirting. Superman having a night with Lois is like Jesus having a night with Magdelene. Superman being just one guy doing good because his parents taught him is like Jesus being just someone with a good heart. He doesn't want that. He wants the son of God, truly above anyone else.

Maggin's take is contradictory.

>Clark is a construct

>Clark is the outlet that allows Superman to do the things that Superman can't do in public" like have hobbies

>"The President" or the "Heavyweight Champion" is ALSO who those people really are and who they were before suddenly becomes fake

The side of you that has hobbies in private is the real fucking you, Elliot. Masks are for public. Jesus Christ.

>>92639173

Seriously, though, i find the whole Kal-El very stupid. It's something for Clark to be aware that this was the name his biological parents gave him or not to correct people when they call him that, specially his kryptonian cousin because she got to first meet him as that. But Clark himself thinking of him as that? That's stupid.

Clark has nothing to do with that name. That name is meaningless. I was adopted. I probably had another name. I have no care for that. I have no care for who i might have been. I am what i was raised to be. What i grew to be.

It's like an American guy who his great, great, great grandparents were German or Spanish or something, and out of nowhere he's starting to he's German or Spanish as well. Like those idiots that always say they're 1/4 Cherokee or somesuch despite being blue-eyed fuckers.

>>92638954
It's the same thing with Batman and Bruce Wayne. If Batman is the "real" person than Batman is insane and why the fuck would you want that?

>>92639064
>This exactly the kind of take i hate. It makes Superman out to look like a sociopath
It doesnt.

It means that being Clark Kent it's him trying to turn down his senses, his mind. Every future superman has superman going as kal el when Lois finally dies. He leaves earth, he explores space, etc. Superman it's his potential, Clark kent it's nothing but the personality he grew up to have. Eventually he will have to leave everything behind.

He isnt just a farm boy from Kansas, that's his system of values, his memories, his humor, and even his accent, he will EVENTUALLY leave all that behind.

>>92639173
Nope, Kal El and Clark are different and always had been, ESPECIALLY in the silver age

>>92639329
so he is a sociopath who cares for nothing and is fucking with everyone for fun

>>92639329

>Every future superman has superman going as kal el when Lois finally dies. He leaves earth, he explores space, etc.

Those stories? Those fucking stupid Elseworlds? They fucking suck big time.

>He isnt just a farm boy from Kansas, that's his system of values, his memories, his humor, and even his accent, he will EVENTUALLY leave all that behind.

That's now how it happens. As you get older what you miss the most are you formative years. What you cling to most are those very first years. The rest is just a fucking blur with a few best moments here and there.

>>92639355
ailver age was shit

>>92639127
Also I'd forgotten he'd said this about the Superman 2000 pitch:

>"It still had Superman married to Lois and all that shit. There was another draft Mark Waid added with Earth getting a mind-wipe to forget that stuff and it had some nice touches, but I'd just start from scratch."

And then years after that there was an interview with Morrison around the time All Star Superman was wrapping up:

>I’ve read a few speculations over the years about how we were going to use that proposal to end the Supeman/Lois Lane marriage. In fact that was actually something we decided we didn’t want to do. I remember Mark Waid and the guys and all of us sitting around thinking of ways to end the Superman marriage – and we talked about it for a long time, and we got to where we were talking about things like “memory molecules,” and we finally said, “This is ridiculous! The only way to do this is to keep the marriage and make it work!”

>It was the only thing we could do with what I still think was a bad idea. The marriage damaged the dynamic of Superman comics quite severely, but if we broke up the relationship of these two great fictional lovers, Superman would immediately seem ineffectual and ultimately beaten by his foes, walking around for the rest of his life not knowing Lois was ever his wife or whatever.

I know around the time the Superman 2000 outline first leaked in 2000 or 2001 (but not up on the internet yet; probably just leaked to industry insiders or something at the time) that people were saying that they were going to get rid of the marriage (which was probably true at one point) but then Waid denied that was going to happen (which was probably true if you go by what Morrison said).

>>92639382
>Those stories? Those fucking stupid Elseworlds? They fucking suck big time.

Don't be stupid.

>>92639375
No, it means that him being from a different species means he eventually will embrace that, Just like petting baby tiger won't stop him from growing up into a tiger, sure, a tammed one but still a fucking tiger. Clark it's who his parents rised, but that will eventually end, it's not intentional, and he will always try to keep being that one, but if you have german heritage, you don't learn german if you don't want to embrace the german in you.

>>92638392
I think it's an interesting conversation to have, OP.

The idea that Clark can do what Superman can't is a good play on the secret identity thing. (He's always Superman underneath but, has to pretend to be Clark). However, it seems contradictory to the character's history. He was raised as Clark Kent. He nor his adoptive parents knew he was going to be Superman from the get go.

I'm having trouble expressing it in writing but, Superman is also a construct in the same way as Clark is. He's the person who can exemplify all the teachings of the Kent's. He does as much as he can because only he can. If anything, his role as Superman is the logical end to his morality.

>>92639355
Fuck no. That interpretation intermediately suggests that Clark doesn't care about humans at all. Fuck that idea.

>>92639382
>He isnt just a farm boy from Kansas, that's his system of values, his memories, his humor, and even his accent, he will EVENTUALLY leave all that behind.
You know, I never thought of that.

Superman will both outlive and outgrow humanity. What we know of him is just the first half-century of a being who will live millenniums.

>>92638392
> and this is why Millar thinks

Stopped reading here
No one cares what the product of Mark Waid's ghostwriting thinks.

I am going to turn 50 this year, remember the bronze age well, read a number of Silver Age stories I cherish but John Byrne did nothing wrong with rethinking the character. You can complain about other things he did on his Man of Steel run, but his interpretation of the character was fine and not a condemnation of Elliot S! Maggin's work (excellent in its own regard).

Stop being a purist, Birthright was a bigger shit on the character.

>>92639312
Obsession is a huge part of Batman's character. He's devoted his entire life to fighting crime, he only has any social life outside of the cave at all because he HAS to, to keep up his responsibilities as the owner of a company.

>>92639382
>As you get older what you miss the most are you formative years

He doesnt blur stuff, he will live for 1000s of years. He isnt human, he doesnt think or feel like we do.

>>92639457

I'm being honest. For example i hate Kingdom Come and the influence it had on subsequent Superman and Wonder Woman characterization.

These stories where Lois is killed off just so a writer can explore how Superman would deal with the loss of his humanity are fucking trite.

>>92638918
What a fucking idiot, as usual.

>>92639495
>but if you have german heritage, you don't learn german if you don't want to embrace the german in you.

This makes NO fucking sense.

>>92639530
>He isnt human,
Correct, he's an alien.

>he doesnt think or feel like we do
He was raised by Kansas farmers and always thought and felt like we do, that's where the contradiction takes place. You're thinking of Martian Manhunter.

>>92639511

But that's is his most important years and the one he'll hold on to the most. Go talk with old people. Ask them about their life's stories. Most of them talk about their childhood, their teens, their every first, and so on. They hardly remember shit that happened when they were 50 unless something really major happened.

>>92638392
>What do you think?

Clark Kent and Superman are the same identity.

There's no problem with cognitive dissonance or deception any more than there's a problem with the way you talk to your friends and the way you talk to your boss being different - Clupermakerman just chooses to show different sides of himself, though he, like you, is aware that there are ways he can behave around certain people, and things they can know about him, that he can never reveal to the people who know him as Suclerment.

Someone once said that what stands out about Christopher Reeve's performance even in the shitty later movies is that he's not playing Clark Kent playing Superman or Superman playing Clark Kent, he's playing the guy who plays them both. The differences in his expression, his physical changes, the affectations he puts on to strengthen each image, are as much Reeve as they are the character's own, and that's what makes it believable - you're never quite sure that they didn't really find an impossibly good man with super powers to play Superman and Clark Kent, who was *so good* and believed in you *so much* that he was willing to let you in on his secret, and that's why he works and why people find those movies so memorable, even though most people alive now have only ever known them as tv movies.

>>92639497
>The idea that Clark can do what Superman can't is a good play on the secret identity thing

Well for one thing Clark can actually have opinions on things.

>>92639530
Luthor. What the hell are you doing in 4chan?

>>92639540
Kingdom Come did nothing wrong.

Supes was still Supes, he returned, he saved humanity, he lived all the 1000 years of his life on Earth, protecting and rebuilding it, till the Legion of Super-Heroes could carry his legacy.

>>92639605
>Someone once said that what stands out about Christopher Reeve's performance even in the shitty later movies is that he's not playing Clark Kent playing Superman or Superman playing Clark Kent, he's playing the guy who plays them both. The differences in his expression, his physical changes, the affectations he puts on to strengthen each image, are as much Reeve as they are the character's own, and that's what makes it believable - you're never quite sure that they didn't really find an impossibly good man with super powers to play Superman and Clark Kent, who was *so good* and believed in you *so much* that he was willing to let you in on his secret, and that's why he works and why people find those movies so memorable, even though most people alive now have only ever known them as tv movies.
This, so very this.

>>92639629

Kingdom Come was a bad comic that damaged more characters than Watchmen or Dark Knight Returns could ever do.

>>92639605
I agree.

Superman doesn't affect multiple personalities, he's just code switching like real people do all the damn time.

>>92639312
Both Batman (the one striking fear into criminals) and Bruce Wayne (The bumbling billionaire playboy) are masks. The real Bruce/Batman is the one you see talking to Alfred/the Robins/allies like Catwoman and Superman when there's no one else around and they're not on a mission.

>>92639540
>i hate Kingdom Come
I feel sorry for you.

>because baawww Lois
You missed the point entirely. The thing that anchored a god to humanity was taken away from him, he let humanity pass judgment on the situation and it chose edgy vengeance over justice. Kal said fuck this and disappeared to mourn in private.

>>92639506
>That interpretation intermediately suggests that Clark doesn't care about humans at all

No, it implies that he cares, it's just that eventually he will stop having a human life.

>>92639692
>The thing that anchored a god to humanity

And that. Right there. It's one of the flaws of many people writing Superman. He is no "god" and should never be interpreted that way.

>>92639715
If he will just stop having a human, why care about having one to begin with? This is not a dichotomy, it's a contradiction.

>>92639692
Superman is not a god. Powers do not make one a god. Immortality does not make one a god. Those are two different fucking things.

A god creates life or is the personification of an element of the natural world.

>>92639661
>Kingdom Come was a bad comic that damaged more characters than Watchmen or Dark Knight Returns could ever do.

Watchmen inspired a number of writers to miss the story's point (if you introduce realism into cape books you get rapists, murderers, sociopaths and destruction). KC was about regaining hope and getting past 90s excesses.

DKR gets a bad rap for being gritty but it's self contained and didn't irreversibly change comics forever.

Christ I hate people who think art has the magical power to make everything that comes after terrible somehow.

>>92639692

I know what the point was, stupid. I still dislike the point it was trying to make and the characterizations of the characters therein it.

>>92639680
>The real Bruce/Batman is the one you see talking to Alfred
Right here. Because unlike the rest of the batfamily Alfred can talk down to him, Bruce will take it, and they both know it.

>>92639692
>The thing that anchored a god to humanity
This is a terrible interpretation of the character. The thing that tethers Superman to humanity is the fact that he was raised in Kansas; it's baked into who he is.

You're confusing Superman with Dr Manhattan.

>>92639774
This. Fucking This.

>>92639756

>KC was about regaining hope and getting past 90s excesses.

KC completely fucked the future characterization of many DC characters. Wonder Woman specially has been completely fucked by it.If we today have Wonder Cunt is because of it.

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>>92639740
Because he loves them and wants to be around them. But he will outlive them all.

He will not abandon his human side. He will allow himself to be more.

>>92639811
>>92639803
>>92639774
Don't try to pretend you're two different people.

>>92639723
>>92639748

>He is no "god"
Fine, "superhero."

A man who always believed in a solution saw a societal rejection of his values at a time of need and he was disillusioned enough to walk.

>>92639817
>He will not abandon his human side.

If what you are saying was true. Then that means he is being a condescending asshole that deep down never really believed in a single word that his father told him. Then it means he is just another Kryptonian that pities humanity and that Lex Luthor was right all along.

That shit is wrong and it goes against absolutely everything the character supports and represents.

Superman is not a god and should never be one.

>>92639817

More what?

Either way you're using a version of Superman that never forgot Lois, his very human wife, and traveled throughout the universe for centuries trying to find a way to bring her back and getting depressed as fuck with his failure to find a way. That because of it decided to seclude himself inside the sun like a hikikomori with Lois pillow, only to come out once he finally managed to find her DNA and clone her.

Basically a man that clung to his past and most happy years like a starving African.

>>92639756
>Watchmen inspired a number of writers to miss the story's point

>implying it wasn't time to shit

>>92639811
Not to mention, that it's a reaction to extreme comics aimed at a younger crowd and its core statement is "stop liking what I don't like and get off my lawn!"

>>92639840
Human beings get disillusioned and walk away from careers and loved ones all the time.

>>92638392
The "Real" person was Clark before Superman.

When he started to be Superman, he divided himself into Fake Clark and Superman (fake clark existed before Superman to hide his powers in smallville) and the only people that knew his true self were his parents (Martha and Jonathan) and Lana.
Later he revealed himself to Lois and she knew the real Clark.

So, you have Real Clark, Superman and Fake Clark

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>>92639840
Sorry. We are.

>>92639610
Doesn't supes do it to? Granted, his are usually aligned with justice.

>>92639756
>Christ I hate people who think art has the magical power to make everything that comes after terrible somehow.
It's just dumb casuals, they have no idea. Watchmen and TDKR never had ANY negative impact on the industry, for fucks sake we got JLI not long time after.


The idea watchmen harmed the industry comes from idiots. The whole rebirth shit really messed the head of many casuals and johnsfags here


>>92639629
Exactly. He always keeps being Superman after lois is gone, it's just that he doesnt have a reason to be clark kent anymore.

>>92639840
>he was disillusioned enough to walk.

Humans do that shit all the time.

I prefer to stick to it being somewhere in the middle.
Superman is Clark puffing out his chest, being brave and heroic.
Clark Kent is Clark accentuating his dorky human side.

Like a sliding scale, where who he really is is in the middle, Superman is on the right, and Clark Kent is on the left.

>>92639889
More than human.

>>92639889
Nope, he recreates her as something more than a human

Being Superman is like being a politician. You're basically trying to put out the best image possible to gain sympathy and trust because you're trying to do this job that is very important and depends on others rallying behind you for you to accomplish it.

Superman will never be a real person.

>>92639811
>KC completely fucked the future characterization of many DC characters

> future
KC doesn't take place in the future. It takes place in the year it was published, in a continuity where most of the DC heroes have aged in realtime since the 1970s, using characterizations from the Bronze Age. Super Friends is canon in it, both by Marvin's appearance and the reuse of the Hall of Justice as the United Nations building. On top of that, Green Lantern is still Alan Scott.

It's not a template for anything and it's a writer's decision to pull from it or not.

>>92639963

When Superman gives him opinion on something he's basically giving his endorsing of it or asking others to do as well.

>>92640026
By future he meant in stories that came after KC. Writers were influenced by Waid and Ross's take to make Wonder Woman more militaristic and more romantically attracted to Clark and those are both dumb things.

>>92639963
>Doesn't supes do it to? Granted, his are usually aligned with justice.
The last thing he endorsed was Metallica. Einstein once built a telescope from scratch because he knew if he was seen purchasing one that the press would take pictures and then the manufacturer would trumpet "As used by Albert Einstein"

>>92640026

Are you retarded? I said the comic had a bad influence on what followed.

>using characterizations from the Bronze Age.

HA! No. Those characterizations were taking out of Waid and Ross asses. Waid specially was said at the time he had never read a Wonder Woman comic and couldn't understand the character. He thought her being an amazon warrior who fought for peace was stupid and contradictory. That's why her stupid characterization in it.

>>92639973
>The idea watchmen harmed the industry comes from idiots.

It inspired BAD writers to amp up the edge. It didn't FORCE anyone to write differently, like some editor rejecting a script and saying "this needs more rape in it."

>The whole rebirth shit really messed the head of many casuals and johnsfags here

I'm not pleased that Johns' invisible hand as the "villain" of Rebirth is another writer's creation when most of this was his own fault. That's low.

>>92639973
>It's just dumb casuals, they have no idea. Watchmen and TDKR never had ANY negative impact on the industry, for fucks sake we got JLI not long time after.

No, they did have some negative influence. Identity Crisis is pretty obviously influenced by Watchmen and many of the Image founders list Miller as an influence. But at the same time blaming them for darkening comics is severely myopic and ignores how there were other things going around in the 80's. I mean I'm fucking sure Wolverine and Punisher would've still become popular even if DKR and Watchmen never existed.

>>92640044
>Writers were influenced by Waid and Ross's take to make Wonder Woman more militaristic and more romantically attracted to Clark
Writers chose to be influenced by it. Other writers did not. It's still a matter of free will, not a fucking party line based on what was functionally an Elseworlds.

Even Waid's description of them kissing makes it sound inhuman (steel scraping marble, someone correct me here) and it's in the context of two generals agreeing to go to war rather than pure romance.

As far as "more militaristic" is concerned, go read runs of WW that predate Perez. It was always there in the background, sue Waid for daring to put it to the fore.
> he never read WW and she didn't make sense to him
Yeah, that's dumb of him but let's be honest she's been a difficult character to comprehend since Marston stopped writing her and interpretations routinely change.

>>92640044
The idea of Wonder Woman and Superman being attracted to each other isn't a new one, and it certainly didn't start with Kingdom Come.

Even guys like Alan Moore had them kiss and laugh it off in the very same story

Every time people say that Superman is like a god because he has this enormous powers or because he'll outlive everyone i think of Lex Luthor. Because let's be real. If Superman was really this almighty being Lex wouldn't constantly outsmart his powers with his genius and inventions. And in the far future Lexcorp is still a thing. Lexs descendent are still giving a time-traveling Superboy headaches.

So what really means to be a god? It's meaningless bullshit to feel self-important. The kryptonians wrecked their own planet with their stupidity. They're no gods.

>>92640100
>when most of this was Diane Nelson, Bob Harras, and Jim Lee's fault

ftfy

This "Johns was a Nu52 architect" meme has to stop eventually, man. He's been against it in every fucking interview. You want to blame everything on his godawful writing in JL? Maybe the reason it's so bad is because he didn't care, he was disenfranchised until they finally let him fix it.

>>92640103
>Identity Crisis is pretty obviously influenced by Watchmen and many of the Image founders list Miller as an influence
Again, a personal choice.

>I mean I'm fucking sure Wolverine and Punisher would've still become popular even if DKR and Watchmen never existed.
And both were intended to be killed off except for fantards who ate them up YEARS before Watchmen was published. Punisher was a genrebender, an expy from pulp paperback series like Mack Bolan's. They can't be blamed on Watchmen.

>>92640214

>As far as "more militaristic" is concerned, go read runs of WW that predate Perez. It was always there in the background, sue Waid for daring to put it to the fore.

No it wasn't. Try mentioning one fucking issue. Waid himself said that he didn't really knew nor liked much Wonder Woman at the time.

>Yeah, that's dumb of him but let's be honest she's been a difficult character to comprehend since Marston stopped writing her and interpretations routinely change.

Now you're just finding excuses for Waid's own stupidity.

>>92640259
>This "Johns was a Nu52 architect" meme has to stop eventually, man. He's been against it in every fucking interview. You want to blame everything on his godawful writing in JL? Maybe the reason it's so bad is because he didn't care, he was disenfranchised until they finally let him fix it.
Then thank you for correcting me here and I won't repeat that again.

>>92640214
>go read runs of WW that predate Perez

Sir, I've been coming here for almost a decade and that's easily the worst thing anyone on 4chan has ever told me to do.

>>92640280
>Now you're just finding excuses for Waid's own stupidity

No, I'm putting it into context. She's a Golden Age character of batshit proportions that doesn't belong in modern comic books and has to be reinterpreted every generation to make her sort of fit. Getting upset over one interpretation inside a single graphic novel and claiming it became canon thereafter is nuts.

>>92639680
Yeah. Deep down, Bruce never really left that alley.

yeah but its boring as batshit. now dc one million superman, thats a good story. injustice superman too

>>92640280
>No it wasn't. Try mentioning one fucking issue
Amazons going to war with Ares during O'Neil's run

>>92640100
>It inspired BAD writers to amp up the edge


Bullshit.
And neither watchmen or TDKR are "edgy".

Image had nothing to do with those stories. The edgyness from comics related to the LEGACY of the action movies of the 80's. Mortal Kombat or Street Sharks had nothing to do with Watchmen either. Legends of the Dark Knight? Animal Man? Sandman? Sure... all that it's the legacy of Watchmen/TDKR. The RADICAL/ATTITUDE years were just reflection of the pop culture of the time. Terminator 2, Blast Processing, Doom, Spawn, all the same.


>>92640103
>Identity Crisis
This is a singular case but it's a fair one, but watchmen wasnt the first story of the style or the last one, just the biggest one. We had grim shit, prostitutes, realism, rape before watchmen. Capecomics are not the only comics.

>>92640266
>They can't be blamed on Watchmen.

Did you read what I wrote?
>I'm fucking sure Wolverine and Punisher would've still become popular even if DKR and Watchmen never existed.

As in, Wolverine and Punisher would've still been popular even if there was no DKR and Watchmen.

>>92640337

No one's really butthurt. People just find that her characterization was terrible in the comic and that the subsequent influence that characterization had on the character itself was bad.

Dean Cain was a good Superman

>>92640259
>This "Johns was a Nu52 architect"

He was. Him and Lee created n52, someone hired them and asked them to do it, but they did it, they were the masterminds, even if the idea wasnt originally theirs.

>>92640392
I'm convinced this is the only timeline where he didn't make gay porn but you are 100% correct here

>>92640356

There was no militaristic edge to WW in that.

>>92640362
You're talking about 90's edge.

2000's edge is a completely different thing. What influenced Identity Crisis and Cry for Justice?

>>92640406
>Him and Lee created n52, someone hired them and asked them to do it, but they did it, they were the masterminds, even if the idea wasnt originally theirs
Whose idea was it then

I wish /co/ had more threads like this.

>>92640379
>People just find that her characterization was terrible in the comic
I'll catch hell for asking this but think back on it and tell me a good, interesting female characterization in a Mark Waid comic book, any company.

No seriously, someone prove me wrong here, I'm probably missing someone.

>>92640362
>wasnt the first story of the style or the last one

Yeah but I bet it's all Brad Meltzer had to go off of besides the Watchtower JL comics he grew up reading.

>>92640406
>Him and Lee created n52

No they didn't. Geoff only created his own books, JL, Aquaman, and Green Lantern, of which, GL actively ignored that there'd been a reboot.

You're attributing the Justice League books to having more influence on the company than they actually have. They're the tail, not the dog. It's a bizarrely common mistake.

>>92640486
Ma in Birthright.

Maybe Linda West?

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>>92639973
>Watchmen had no influence

>>92640486
Black Canary pulling Flash's lightning bolts sideways in JLA Year One after he criticized her heels and fishnets.

>>92640571

Black Canary was awful in that, though.

>>92639973
>we got JLI not long time after.
Haven't Giffen and DeMatteis said that at first they got a lot of negative feedback?

>>92638392
I think everyone either forgets, ignores, or discredits "Clark" with family for the sake of a simpler 1 on 1 direct comparison.

Clark, in a way is the real personality, just not the Clark that works at the Daily Planet. Which for a long time is what most people saw or what most people see most of the time. Clark once he was open with Lois and married to Lois is a third personality to some extent, it , in my opinion, is the Clark that the Kents raised and that grew up with Lana. He's still kind, still polite as is present in both Reporter and hero personas but he's also more relaxed, open, and blends uncertainty and confidence together in ways you never see in the other two roles. And regardless of what he's wearing cape and tights or suit and glasses, he's a notably different person when around family.


I think that's the "real" identity of Clark/Superman. And maybe the real identity of us all. The person we are when we're around those we care about the most.

It's like with Batman. No matter how much Bruce Wayne wants to believe that he became something more than a scared little boy and that he doesn't need to be the ineffectual Bruce Wayne anymore, he'll forever be Bruce and eventually he has to learn to accept it. That's why i enjoyed Morrison's take so much where eventually Bruce learned to stop being such an autistic sperg and be more zen and at ease.

>>92640645
>they got a lot of negative feedback?

And that has nothing to do with watchmen
>>92640570
Who are you quoting?

>>92638392
There are two masks. There is Mild Mannered Reporter Clark Kent, who is weak and cowardly but means well and is a damn fine reporter. And there is Superman, the incorruptible symbol of hope and purity, so powerful he can't be anything other than a God. Somewhere beneath those two is Smallville Clark/All, who is a good hearted, salt of the earth farmboy who just wants to help. That's the real person, not any of his personas.

>>92640437

The suits.

Johns and Lee are hired sluts/guns.

They will do what is asked.

>>92640417
So we are blaming moore for every story you didnt like?
IC was inspired by watchmen, the mistery and the killing of cape related people, that's it, not if it was dark or not, not iof it was realistic, etc. As for Cry for Justice there's nothing in that book that it's similar to watchmen. NOTHING

>>92639629
Kingdom Come Superman literally did everything wrong.

He cried like a bitch because the racist court supported Zimmerman killing the Joker. Instead of trying to change society and guide them, he left like a petty bitch. Leading to assholes to take charge and tons of people to die. Then when he "returned" he kidnapped people against their will, caused the deaths of hundreds of people, and tried to MURDER the U.N. (our hero ladies and gentlemen!)

Kingdom Come Superman was a whiny baby manchild written by a man who repeatingly slammed a phone and screamed for several minutes (seriously, go look that up). He's as bad as DCEU and Injustice Supes. But Injustice's story actually treats Superman's actions as negatives and not heroic.

>>92640227
Take your stupid logic and get out of here.

>>92641559

The funny thing in KC is that the explanation for everything was that the characters are gods that lost perspective, as if that could excuse anything. But hey, Superman thought for a moment there he was better than everyone and the only one capable of doing shit. His bad. Let's forget everything that happened. That was an honest mistake. Who can blame him with Wonder Woman putting worms in his brains.

>Millar
>the Unfunnies guy
>writing well

>>92641658
>>92640227

The kryptonians had no super-powers in their home star system. They were as normal as a human, only more advanced. Superman's superpowers are the result of an accident. In many continuities Jot-El isn't even aware that the yellow sun would grant his son powers.

>>92638918
Man, Millar really is a hack.

>>92641798
>In many continuities Jot-El isn't even aware that the yellow sun would grant his son powers.
In several others it's why he specifically chose Earth.

>>92641756
>The Unfunnies
>Trouble
>Nemesis

Millar is one of those writers who consistently create abslutely detestable works.

>>92641958

Even then is Jor-El using something that our solar system can give his son, not something that was always innate in the kryptonians.

There are a few stories that showed humans could gain the same powers in a solar system with a blue sun.

These facts pretty much proves that these super-powers shouldn't make Superman a god. It's an accident, a mutation, something outside his control.

>>92638954
This is part of why I love Up, Up, and Away so much. It shows a depowered Clark just enjoying being Clark -- but also still being every bit the hero he's always been.

I don't know why there needs to be this dichotomy between Clark and Superman. To me, the values the Kents instilled in him are a huge part of why he is who he is. You can't take that away from the character or pretend his Kryptonian heritage trumps it. It takes away the importance of the Kents as his parents.

I always rolled with the idea that his Kryptonian heritage made him super, but the Kents made him a hero.

Superman was raised as Clark Kent and does what he does because he was raised by the Kents. He's a citizen of Earth first and foremost and fights to protect what he holds dear to him. Not because he's a Kryptonian, not because of the costume, but because he has the ability and the knowledge and compassion to do what's right.
>>92638918
Millar is a retard. Superman doesn't pretend to be Clark, he IS Clark. He doesn't become a different person when he puts on the cape, he continues to be who he is, just wearing a costume.

>>92639100
Is it so hard to understand that the "Clark Kent" he is with his parents isn't the same "Clark Kent" he plays in Metropolis?
The former is closer to his real self, while the latter is an elaborate disguise.

Just the way I see it:

- Clark in Smallville talking to Pa Kent or Lana; and Kal-El in the Fortress listening to Jor-El or whatever are as close to the "true" personalities of Superman as we can get.

- Clark in the Daily Planet and Superman alone or with the JLA are roles, his "masks"

With that same logic, for me the closest we can get to see the real Batman is when he's fully suited up but without the cowl, working on the computer or talking to Alfred. Even when he's talking to one of the Robins is not 100% the "real" personality.

>>92642808

>and Kal-El in the Fortress listening to Jor-El or whatever are as close to the "true" personalities of Superman as we can get.

Why? I get Superman wanting to be that child, but that's it. A desire to feel connection with a what if scenario that he never lived and will never live. I can't see this Kal-El as anything more than Superman wishful thinking.

>>92642894
Maybe he understands that he represents the hopes and dreams of a dead world, and tries to connect with that doing his best effort.

In a sense, Krypton as a whole will always need his help when it comes to that, and Superman would never stop helping anybody that needs him, even if they're dead.

Whenever Kandor and Supergirl show up I guess that need is reinforced but also somewhat alleviated; he's not the only one of his kind.

>>92638392
>Clark Kent is a fiction created by Superman
No

>>92643020

Yeah, but that is still a wish, a yearning. Something he's trying to honor, to connect with, to learn more of, to understand better. It's not something that is or should be a big part of him to the point of him being more connected to that than the experiences he grew up with.

>>92643110
If he spent a lot of time in the Fortress I guess it would be abnormal.

I always thought that he's just trying to find a balance between the legacy of the place he came from and the place he grew up in.

He knows that if he forgets about Krypton then it would be really dead, so he knows he has to spend at least some time in the Fortress.

I go every once in a while to the cemetery to spend some time in front of my dad, but no more than 15-20 minutes at a time.

I guess for Superman is similar but on a bigger scale, just like Morrison said once.

>>92638727
t. numale who hasn't read good Superman comics.

>>92643381
Real Clark works when he doesn't get his powers until adulthood, like Byrne's, but false Clark is valid when Superboy is canon.

>>92643249

Eh, i still find this interpretation where he goes "I'm Kal now, fuck this human bullshit" to not make much sense. I can get Superman trying to connect and honor his kryptonian legacy, but to me that should be something Superman always do as someone looking from the outside. There should always be a disconnect there. Superman trying and always failing to truly grasp what it is to be kryptonian.

I think that adds a lot more to his interactions with the other kryptonians and his cousin Kara. Superman should always feel a hard time to connect with Krypton. It should be a tragic thing. So when he interacts with Kara it should always amount to "You should have been there to really get it" This way you also create a good dichotomy between him and Supergirl. While Supergirl is a kryptonian at heart who will always have a hard time understanding Earth, Superman's a human at heart who will always have a hard time understanding Krypton, and they get to meet half-way and help each other learn more about each other's world.

I don't know, i lost myself a bit with the point i was trying to make.

>>92643440
Byrne's take is terrible though. Also see Dinner movies, Clark as a mask absolutely works there without the need of Superboy.

>>92643563

In the Donner's movies Clark is pretty much Jesus Christ.

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>>92643461
I recently reread the Johns/Gary Frank Brainiac arc, that's exactly what happens between Kal and Kara; she basically tells him he could never understand how horrible Brainiac really is because he wasn't there.

honestly, why can't we have both?

Superman is just as real as Clark. Superman is his purest truest self, the man who has extraordinary powers and uses them to help people because he's a good person.

And Clark kent is just as true. it's the man he was raised to be by his adoptive Earth parents. The farm boy who was taught right from wrong by pa Kent, but who has to put on an act to hide that he's superman and give himself some semblance of privacy and "normalcy" that doesn't just revolve around flying into the arctic whenever he wants to just read the paper

honestly i think going all in for one or the other really misses something. the original Superman was basically all superman all the time, but he also didn't have much of an upbringing until the kents were introduced. but making him purely clark isnt the answer either, because it somewhat flanderizes him as a character.

you CAN have your cake and eat it when it comes to Superman.

Although I believe that Clark, the guy from Kansas lifting a tractor is the truest face of him, none of them are acts or fakes, just different facets of the character.
Clark on the farm, or at home with Lois and Jon, is him with his guard down, his shoulders relaxed.
Superman at the Watchtower with his head high and his voice loud and clear is a projection, but not an act.

>>92643668

Yeah, i loved that arc.

>>92643586
And that take is still 1000% better than 90% of post crisis. Also Singer was obsessed with religious imagery, Donner just thought of him as someone who could do pretty much anything, not Christ.

>>92643750

Nah, man. The first two movies are pretty heavy on the religious shit.

>>92643461
no, no, you made the point pretty well, and personally, I agree with it. have a (you)

>>92643783
the first one moreso that the second, because it had Brando doing his "father/son" speech,

>>92643831

I always felt that the first movie was essentially "What if Christ told his dad to fuck off and instead of letting himself die at the cross went and used his awesome powers to change shit." There was a lot of emphasizes in Jor-El, as a disemboweled voice, telling Superman to lead by example and not interfere much but let things go its course instead of fucking throwing a tantrum and going back in time to change everything.

>>92638954

That's clearly how Snyder feels.

>>92640740
Aw, I like that. Know what comic it's from?

I think people hung up on "who is real" miss the point of what Grant and Superman 2000 were trying to do. The point was to free Superman from the shackles of the terrible interpretation of Byrne and soap opera bullshit that was 90s. Superman in this interpretation is just a tool to deliver awesome stories full of imagination, high concepts and of grandiose soap opera. But if Superman is limited by the marriage and other human stuff, they can't really do either of them justice. Perfect example is current run of Superman and Johns' run on Superman. They're both similar in that they want to tell balls to the walls crazy Superman stories, Johns' run being more an homage to early silver age and Donner movies but they both fail because of the limitations, or rather they don't do every aspects of the mythos justice. Johns really ignored marriage for a decent part and couldn't really work Lois/other human aspects into his run properly and Tomasi can't really tell a Superman story to save his life. Same contrast is there in Busiek and Johns run, Busiek wanted to make things bigger and high concept but had to sacrifice a lot of creativity because he was also trying to do the marriage justice.

>>92644101
the final issue of either Superman or Action before Flashpoint, I think it was Action #904.

>>92644133

>Superman in this interpretation is just a tool to deliver awesome stories full of imagination, high concepts and of grandiose soap opera. But if Superman is limited by the marriage and other human stuff

You don't have to sacrifice one to do another. A good writer is able to balance both.

>>92643831
>>92643920
He was essentially telling Supes to not be a god and he chose to be, there's definitely religious subtext there if you want to see it that way but I don't think that really was the intention Donner had. At least not such a direct parallel as Singer's/Snyder's movies.

>>92643675
The farmboy who was taught right from wrong became Superman, just like the Clark Kent name became the mask he wore in public.

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Superman pretends to be Clark
not the other way around

Because deep down even a nerd can be a superman.

>>92638488
>>92638467
>>92638444
i like this interpretation, although i dont prefer it.
it brings him too close to batman for my tastes

>>92644325
the thing is, when you start calling one or another a "mask" or "act" it becomes false. Thats my point. both can be the "real" person. They don't have to be mutually exclusive. Superman is Clark Kent is Superman again.

yes, he puts on the "mild mannered" clumsy and awkward routine so it isn't terribly obvious that his disguise is a pair of glasses and sometimes a hat, but to say "clark kent" as a whole is an act would be a disservice.

i always liked when movies show Clark at the farm in smallville, where he takes the glasses off but keeps the flannel and jeans on, and maybe plays fetch with the dog or eats Ma Kent's apple pie, and his demeanor is superman, but without the imposing authority figure presentation.

like

>>92643681
says.

>>92644270
The fact that it hasn't really been done says otherwise. Did you not read my whole post? Take All Star Superman for example, here Superman just fucks off to Bizzaro World for an issue or does a lot of other high concept stuff where Lois really doesn't have a place, she's there as a supporting character and she only pops up where she's needed (as should be) but if she's married to Superman she's a co-star in the book and not really a supporting character. You have to focus on the marriage and giving her the right amount of panel time. How then would you go about doing it in such a way that she's not shoehorned in and neither feels like author's after thought or completely discarded. The kind of story Superman 2000 were proposing and the kind of stories Morrison can imagine up don't really have a place for that kind of limitations.

>>92638918
>Superman tries HARD to love Lois, but he can't because she's the wrong species. But he tries. Again, Maggin sums it up beautifully. It doesn't have to be complicated... Clark loves Lois, Lois loves Superman, Superman loves Clark [
fuck that and fuck anyone who agrees with it

>>92644549
not him, but I never liked All Star Superman personally. specifically because he's too god-like and too high concept

>>92638918
what the fuck is this hack talking about?

>>92642334
>I always rolled with the idea that his Kryptonian heritage made him super, but the Kents made him a hero.
I agree.

>>92638392
I like it when Clark Kent is a disguise, but the "Clark Kent" at the Daily Planet isn't much like how Clark was at Smallville as a kid.
Plus I dislike overly bumbling and awkward Clark Kent portrayals because if you want to NOT draw attention to yourself then being the overly tall awkward office guy is the shittiest way to avoid any kind of attention because EVERYONE knows who that guy is.

I liked S:TAS version of Kent, where Kent was not a coward or awkward.
He was just....very boring. "Mild-mannered". As the classic description goes.
He was a reporter who's presence amount to to a name on a byline, who did his job (and did it well, just boringly), and grew up in a flyover state in Middle America in a town who's name screams "ignore us, we're tiny".
Clark Kent the disguise should be an Everyman in the sense that he is incredibly easy to see and forget. Just some tall guy who works at an office somewhere in a suit with glasses.

In fact, two distinctive traits like that is one of the BEST ways to disguise yourself; two really obvious traits ("Tall", "Glasses") and then really nothing else interesting about you (especially personality wise) means you're automatically a "mental gloss over" person.

>>92644590
That's how he was in Silver Age, bronze age toned it down a bit but then they threw a lot of psuedo political/philosophical/existential stuff in there.

I never liked when they made Clark too unlikable , (though its usually because he needed to get away from everyone to change into superman)

But the comics were generally better when Superman was the real person and Clark was an act. At least it brought up an interesting characterization. Unlike right after Post-Crisis when Superman/Clark was just kinda boring...which is weird because the point was to make superman comics more interesting.

The comics themselves were pretty good/decent though so its easy enough to get past the Superman/Clark bits.

If DC didn't reboot the entire universe I could see Superman eventually easing up on the Clark personality and eventually marrying Lois.

>>92644657

I dislike the silver age characterization. Superman was too much of an alien. Fuck, the guy was every other Sunday traveling back to when Krypton existed to hang out his real dad and mom.

>>92644632
man, StaS was really the best version of the character in every way. Even if he was slightly depowered for plot's sake

>>92644506
"Clark Kent" as he is presented to the world is an act. Calling it anything else would be disingenuous.

Superman "doesn't love Lois" because he's busy being superman. He doesn't really have time for a relationship.

an ongoing theme was that if Lois could prove Clark was Superman he would have to stop being Superman and could marry lois.
Superman basically never wanted to grow up. He wore his old baby blankets and fought monsters and went on adventures. Marrying Lois meant growing up and being an adult instead of having fun.

>>92644709
The thing is even if you hate the characterization, they offered a lot of pure imagination. The writers were actively trying to use Superman in super scenarios. That's worth a lot more than Superman punches a really powerful character really hard for the thousandth time like it's a DBZ or another battle shonen.

>>92644632

In TAS Clark Kent wasn't really a disguise. That's why Clark was much less bumbling and cowardly. He was just his normal self, but in a low-key manner. Hell, in that cartoon he'd be much more at easy as Clark than as Superman. When he was in normal clothes and interacting with Lois he'd be a lot more chill and snarky, while when he was Superman he'd be a lot more uptight.

>>92644815

That has a lot more to do with the times than with Superman characterization or him being married to Lois, though. EVERY FUCKING COMIC back then was a lot more imaginative. One good example is the Flash. His comic back then had him and his enemies coming up with crazy solutions to counter each other using real science in a very eccentric and fun way. Now the Flash comics is nothing but Flash goes faster against other speedsters that try to go even faster.

Now everything is about being relatable and serious and violent.

>>92638727
This. Superman is superman not because of his powers but because he is the model of pure, unrelenting, 100% righteousness. Obviously the powers give him the ability but his willingness to always do what's right is what makes his character truly special and God-like. And that comes from his upbringing as a Kent. If anyone else found that pod, Superman would be drastically different as a man. Maybe even a villain. But he was found by two honest hardworking god fearing Americans who brought him up well. Not by a single mom who hopped from dick to dick on the reg.

I'm not saying that the interpretation of Clark being an act is totally wrong. But I'm saying that his identity as a Kent is what made him so admirable. Maybe it's just that the Clark he lets the general public see is a goofy act but the man he becomes when he is superman is more akin to the real Clark.

>>92644818
snarky clark was the best

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d0QVvbhMm24

>>92638727
Yes, and the Kents did not raise an oblivious neurotic wimp, they raised Superman.

Another thing that All Star Superman does brilliantly is tackles this question of who is real in the most interesting way. Since Superman is about to die he feels like he can reveal his secret to Lois but Lois doesn't care anymore because she only really cares about Superman. To her Superman is the real deal. But if we look at people from his hometown, like Kent's or his childhood friends, they don't pretend that Superman is real like Lois (subconsciously) and people from Daily Planet consciously do, to them Clark is the real deal and he doesn't really need to be anyone else there. But that still doesn't say who's actually real, and that's really the dichotomy of Superman/Clark Kent. He doesn't know which half is real himself and like readers think they know who's real, Superman realizes who's real as well based on the context of it.

>>92645016
>If anyone else found that pod, Superman would be drastically different as a man. Maybe even a villain.

which is basically the premise behind almost every Superman Elseworlds story

"what if Superman landed in Soviet Russia? What if he landed in Nazi Germany? What if he landed on Apokolips?"

here's how i've been looking at it: Mr. Kent of the Daily Planet and Superman, Last Son of Krypton, are two extremes to his persona. they're both him, but not completely. the real guy is Clark at his most relaxed and comfortable; the face he shows t his family and closest friends. his name's been Clark much longer than it's been Superman.

>>92645109
>What if Zod's genetic clone was in the pod and he landed in Mexico?
It wasn't the worst animated DC movie.

>>92645167

In my opinion Kal-El is who he is trying to connect with, Superman is who he is trying to be, and Clark is who he really is. The reporter persona is 50% an act and 50% the real deal. He always end up slipping on the act, specially around Lois, because he subconsciously wants to be himself with her.

>>92645016

I agree. It's what makes most Superman Elseworlds so off putting to read. Usually there's something fun about them, but they usually strip away the Kents and put Kal-El somewhere else. And without the Kents, he shouldn't really be Superman. Yet they usually bend him back into being Superman.

>>92644920
The context is what created the characterization, always has. In the 30/40s he was the embodiment of pure righteousness and the American way because that's what that era propelld the creators to do. But in the 60s he could be the tool for fun and imagination because the writers were inspired by the golden age of sci-fi fiction and the boom of sci-fi in movies. By the 80s people needed those relatable characters everywhere and Superman became Clark Kent and pure imagination because the relic of the era long gone. Sadly this interpretation has outlasted every interpretation by a long shot, because capeshit as a genre changed for worse in the 80s. I don't think people will on a large scale accept the campy and fun Superman ever again, too out of fashion and unrelatable for their liking.

>>92645057
>>92638727

This is why most mask and truth conversations have a funny wrinkle that people forget. Superman isn't the truth. Clark fumbling in the office isn't the truth. Clark in Superman costume sitting on the porch with Pa is the truth.

Bruce Wayne playboy isn't the truth. Batman terrorizing criminals isn't the truth. Bruce in the cave with cowl down thanking Alfred for dinner is the truth.

Masks and lies, and identities, the truth of it all lies in those few we let in to know enough angles of ourselves they can paint the broadest picture of us. The people who know enough of our facets and secret passions they can actually know a holistic us.

>>92645304
i see what you mean, and i think i agree. i picture it as a slider, with Mr. Kent on one Side and Superman on the other. the real Clark is closer to Mr. Kent than he is to Superman.

>>92645205
Honestly Gods and Monsters Superman was one of the most original Superman elseworlds stories in quite a while. It had loads of unique ideas.

>>92640392
He was an OK Superman, but that show was bad. They just didn't know what to do with him to fill time.

>>92645167
>the real guy is Clark at his most relaxed and comfortable; the face he shows t his family and closest friends.
His closest friends are people from 31st century (not anymore lol) and in front of them he is Superman, not Clark.
>his name's been Clark much longer than it's been Superman.
No it has been Kal-El much longer.

>>92638918
>"Superman doesn't love Lois. Clark loves Lois and Superman tries HARD to love Lois, but he can't because she's the wrong species. But he tries. Again, Maggin sums it up beautifully. It doesn't have to be complicated... Clark loves Lois, Lois loves Superman, Superman loves Clark [...] Perfect. This is also one of the reasons Superman shouldn't be married to Lois. It's just stupid. It makes no sense and destroys the whole dynamic. Superman is God, Jor-El is the Holy Spirit and Clark Kent is Jesus. The Kents are Mary and Joseph and Lois is Mary Magdelene. She's the NYC girl who's fucked her way around the city and found nobody who measures up. She's just had it with men and is focusing on her career... then Superman shows up. This is why Margot Kidder was perfect for the role and why Lois should be played by someone around 30 even if Supes is being played by a 25 year old. You'll see what I mean when we fix it."

Oh nooo. Oh nooooooo not this.

See Superman isn't a god. He's a mortal man doing the best he can. He just so happens to be able to do a hell of a lot more than most, and that weight sits on his shoulders. It's not the story of a god as man. It's the story of an ordinary man doing all he can. Perhaps the purity of that can make him seem sort of.... divine or pure or whatever religious sentiment you want to add to it, but that's true of any real person who's just too damned good to be true. Those people are incredibly few, but they do exist.

>>92645418

I like the idea that Bruce in his autism want to believe and make other's believe that he really is this mythical bat creature, but this is manly something that he really, REALLY wish it to be true, not that it is. So is essential that every story should end on the note of Alfred telling his ass that he's letting his autism get out of hand and that he should come back to act like a proper adult. It should always end with Bruce getting grounded and realizing the stupidity of his bullshit... before doing it all over again.

I find that funny as shit for some reason. It's when writers have other characters basically enabling his retardation that i get annoyed. For example King's run.

>>92639294

The thing is Maggins take here was trying to create a holistic approach to the argument. He's presenting angles to it that Millar wants to shear off.

>>92639540
>These stories where Lois is killed off just so a writer can explore how Superman would deal with the loss of his humanity are fucking trite.

I agree. She's an important aspect of who he is. Her loss would make him loose his way for a time. Like a few weeks or months maybe. But he wouldn't give up. Because Superman, Clark, is meant to be a real person in the way he deals with people, but freer. Real people suffer pain and loss and move on. Usually largely the same as before. I don't exactly want to see another story where he losses Lois, but I'd want to see ONE where he handles that loss like the man he is.

>>92645404
>I don't think people will on a large scale accept the campy and fun Superman ever again, too out of fashion and unrelatable for their liking.

honestly i think there's a yearning for a more lighthearted Superman, which is what Rebirth Superman is a thing.

people felt that Superman got so far from his optimistic lighthearted iconic self, that bringing back the "family man" Superman and giving him a son is injecting some mirth and whimsy into the character.

It's really telling of the times when Superman having a family and the "underwear on the outside" are what people today consider "light hearted campy" traits of the character.

>>92639605

Exactly. It's what makes the scene where he's working up the guts to tell Lois so fantastic. He's switching between aspects of himself, because he's afraid to let her in on the whole him. Both sides of the same guy, not some weird dichotomy secret thing.

>>92645575

I agree. If not Alfred, his sons, the Robins. That's one thing that doesn't jive with Damien. He doesn't remind Bruce that he's just a man. A driven man, but a man. Dick, Jason, Tim, they go and be normal, and drag Bruce back to that in their ways. Damien.... is the half psycho grandson of a hundreds year old shadow criminal power broker despot.

>>92645678

I think what writers forget is that Superman is the everyman perfected. A strong sense of justice, which we all think we have. And by god, the strength to act on it. To do what's right despite himself. Something we often wish we had the bravery to do.

And what does the everyman want? The average Joe? Married and kids. A normal life. That's a big desire in a huge complex constantly shifting world. Stability and a place to fight back. It makes total sense to give that to Superman.

There are so many other heroes to explore other ideals. But Superman's shear purity of design, the elegant simplicity of his invention, makes him perfect to play the everyman.

When the fuck did the whole thing about Superman basically being eternal start exactly? There's been future set stories about him outliving Lois Lane and scarcely looking a day older since at least Maggin's tenure to my knowledge, and it's been a pretty consistent lore thing ever since. How did it start?

I know he's invulnerable under a yellow sun but that shouldn't necessarily retard his entire aging process. Kryptonians didn't live for centuries, superpowers or not, why should it follow that he will? One of the best things about Superman Secret Identity (which was a non-canon Elseworlds story about a guy who looks and acts like Suprman by choice but explicitly isn't, but still) was seeing him get old and weaker and have to fly around in an insulated costume while his daughters and grandson helped him save the day. Why is Superman as an ageless Immortal always the default position?

>>92645542
Superman is absolutely a god, it's just that that god is puppeteered by a man behind a curtain named Clark. If Superman weren't a god, people wouldn't get so upset when he fails to love up to an impossible ideal.

>>92645678
It's definitely the light-hearted and campy stuff but people are still a bit too concerned with how relatable Superman is. That's why him being married and having family is important for people.
On similar note I don't think Gleason is a good Superman artist. He's a good artist, great for cape stuff but his art is too dark and shadow-y for a book like Superman. There's one too many instances where Superman is a shadow in the dark with his red eyes in all their glory. DC should ask Frank to teach people how to draw Superman again like Swan did in the 60s and 70s. Alright I'm being facetious here but I do really want more artist that aren't shadow/ink heavy with Superman. Even Mahnke has changed his style way too much compared to his early 2000 stuff.

>>92645418
>>92645575
I think that Batman went too deep into the neurotic "bruce is the mask" path. Because that kind of batman can't really have lighthearted moments.

I always love the end of the Batman Azreal arc, because Azbats himself was basically a commentary on the gritty superhero that was popular in the 90's. it ends with batman stepping into the light, to something like "one time I fell through that opening and never stopped falling" and "maybe it's time to step into the light"

and it concludes on how eventually he has to return to the darkness below, but "not today. today he walks in the day" as he walks back into his manor with his cowl off

Batman has become almost a parody. he's become the "IM BATMAAAN" caricature

>>92645882
Oddly, I don't remember him having children in any sort of stable way.

>>92645884

I don't get it either. I hate that angle. He should live a normal life. Maaaybe give him like 20 extra to be able to get old with Lois and then have a few old mentor years with younger generations. But not a THOUSAND. Usually that idea is just detrimental to the character to the extreme.

I think the only PANEL where I liked it was old man Superman in a crowd looking up with a smile as he saw the Legion take flight in JSA. I'm not the biggest Alex Ross fan, but he nailed that secret knowing smile.

>>92645884

>I know he's invulnerable under a yellow sun but that shouldn't necessarily retard his entire aging process. Kryptonians didn't live for centuries, superpowers or not, why should it follow that he will?

Basically, this whole bullshit about Superman being quasi-immortal started precisely because writers feel that he's essentially a god. So to show him above the lowly mortals, they've him be immortal as well, this way they can drive the themes of alienation and otherness further.

>>92645884
Superman being an ageless immortal was never a thing? In the silver age there's Legion who always described Superman as someone who had died although it's never explicitly stated in the comics. I feel like this is another one of Morrison's and Miller's Superman fantasy then an actual thing.

>>92646019

I'm sort of speaking about Jon. I think never letting him develop that angle before was comic editorial doing their normal thing. But for Superman as everyman, it's the most logical next step and I am so glad we're finally taking it.

I think Clark and Peter Parker are comics two great everyman characters. Clark got derailed by the Silver Age for a long time. Short stories, sell wacky ideas, fear the code. I think that era did harm. Yeah before he was full of a lot of piss and vinegar, but if I recall late Golden Age, he had almost become something like a Bronze Age Clark for a liiittle bit. Just a lot more smirkey.

(I uh... don't know the late Golden Age well. Working off of shadows of memories.)

>>92646139

I think it did crop up a few times in the Silver and Bronze Ages. Especially anything that hinted at Golden Age Supes past CoIE's.

(I forget, did the Earth 2 Superman have grey hair? Wasn't one post CoIE idea to reveal that Superman was him washing the fake grey out of his hair?)

>>92645992

Yeah. That was one of those great arcs that also conveyed an editorial idea/promise to course correct some iffy ideas on a character that never really went how they intended. It's a shame. I could do with more Denny O'Neil globe trotting man about town who knows his shit Batman stories.

>>92639936

I just thought of something that's a big no shit. Maggin didn't have this angle. Clark never told Lois back when he worked on the books. That's a new edition. Siegel and Shuster wanted her to find out, but ya know, editorial.

So really, Maggin never had the two sides and the truth angle to play with.

I wonder how he would have thought about that.

>>92638392
I like to think his true self lies somewhere in the middle.
Fact of the matter is, he's not JUST Superman, same way he's not JUST Clark Kent (and the same way he's not JUST Kal-El).

When he's Clark, he gets to do human things; he gets to ride the bus, he gets to hang out at home, he gets to grab a cup of coffee with a coworker.
When he's Superman, he gets to do superhero things; he gets to teach lessons to school kids and speak before the UN.

Clark Kent is Superman making sure he appears extra normal, Superman is Clark Kent making sure he appears extra super.

In the middle, we have who he really is, the personality he carries when he's alone at the Fortress of Solitude or with his family at the Kent farmhouse.

He's just like all of us, really; when we're at work or at school, maybe our behavior is a little more professional. We act a bit more polite, maybe take on more than we can really handle to make a good impression. When we're with friends, we laugh a little louder, take more of a proactive stance towards life. Or maybe we put on a front, to make sure that people will accept us.

When we're alone, maybe we get to be sad, or vulnerable, or even a bit lazy. We all have our masks to wear, but it's where those masks overlap that our true selves can be found.

>>92646218
Don't remember, there are definitely stories about Superman dying and all in Silver Age, the first death of Superman to be exact. I don't think they ever treated Superman as immortal figure in those days because Legion was big part of the canon. It's definitely a constant in Morrison/Waid/Millar stories.

>>92640076
>He thought her being an amazon warrior who fought for peace was stupid and contradictory.

But people are contradictory by nature. Figuring out the personal truth in those contradictions is what a writer should do.

The fuck Waid?

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>>92646057
well thats because Ross made it work. KC went by the idea that he isnt eternal, he just ages real slow, and eventually he will be an old man.

And personally, I dont mind that angle. it gave us interesting stuff like Beyond Superman, that explores what Superman can do once being Clark Kent is no longer feasible, and Lois has passed away or died. Bruce is an old man, while Superman is sporting the middle aged "white at the sides, crows feet under the eyes" look

And to it's credit the Superman Beyond comic went in an interesting direction. Bruce hooks up Clark with a new identity and he becomes a Firefighter who keeps losing his helmet because he doesnt know what to do with it when he changes costume

>>92640259

Seriously. Early Justice League was not Johns style at all. That was at least ghost plotted by Lee. That was not a Johns story in the least.

Hell, we know that Superman and Wonder Woman getting together was Lee's idea. That idiot thought it would be cool. The man has no sense of character at all. Frankly I have no idea why he has any sort of creative control at DC. I get using him as a rockstar artist. But why does he influence story direction?

>>92639748
>Superman is not a god. Powers do not make one a god. Immortality does not make one a god.
he's not a god because of these things, i dont know why it ended up being him, but he is a metatextual archetype for the male hero. in essence, hes an idea thats taken a life of his own

>>92640437

Diane Nelson was put in charge of DC. She told Didio to clean slate and boost sales or get fucked. He's always hated continuity. Go look at Beast Machines to see that. So he finally did what he wanted and ditched all he could. Johns and Morrison held on to what they could. Lee also had a lot of creative control, redesigning much of the DC roster for that era. A lot of idea from the time were his too.

>>92644478
I feel like the big dofference is that Batman holds his rich playboy persona in contempt whereas Clark is Superman's outlet

>>92645897
imo he isnt the god, the s itself is if that makes sense

>>92639840
>was disillusioned enough to walk.
You mean like how tons of humans do? Are you fucking sense, have you never heard people talking about giving up hope in humanity?

>>92644225

With how n52 Superman started, this exchange was like wailing against the oncoming storm.

>>92646772
I'd say that the S would be more akin to his eagle or his winged sandals or his shield/aegis, the symbol or emblem that communicates his ideal, but I see where you're coming from.

>>92643831
>>92643920

I can't believe Snyder mixed the point of the alien dad and human dad so badly.

Clark has these two influences on his shoulder. One saying be a good man, the best man. That comes from Johnathan Kent. Another saying that he's better and to stay out of things. That's Jor-El. Clark listens to Johnathan but fears that Jor-El has a hint of truth, so he helps but he never goes too far. Also by listening to his human father, it serves to illustrate that Clark Kent is the real person, with Superman/Kal-El being a facade, or at the least part of the broader picture.

Snyder had Johnathan tell him not to get involved, and Jor'El tell him to save the pitiful monkey people. And now he's not human and he's a disconnected angsty intruder on Earth. The fuck?

>>92640350
>injustice superman too
You can't be serious. That story is pure stupidity, not even talking about Supes. WW is awful, Batman is awful, everyone except Kara is awful.

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>>92645992
>>92646256

Honestly, i never understand the overly serious Batman. It's like... it just doesn't make any sense.

Think here with me, please. Being Batman for Bruce is like unwrapping that present you had been waiting for the entire year. Bruce had been studying and training his entire young life wishing for the day he'd finally be capable of gaining his power back. Of finally being able to will, to act, to accomplish! Being Batman should be the happiest moment of his life. Is him finally being able to do all those things he dreamed of. It's an enormous release after all those years of hate, struggle, doubt, and fear.

Not to mention that the things that Batman do are pettiest as fuck in nature. He's basically acting like a grown up kid and being a huge troll. Take for example hiding in the dark to surprise criminals and scare them shitless. He has to have the imagination and patience to think of good scenarios that would scare a group of grown up men, something that just coming up is must be fun as well, then finding a good spot and stay there waiting patiently for the perfect moment to strike. I can picture Batman trying to contain his giggle the whole time and thinking to himself "Oh, man. These guys are going to get so fucking scared. Hahaha! I'm fucking awesome. This is going to be fucking awesome!"

Seriously, Batman in his essence is basically a grown up guy having the time of his life being the meanest and pettiest person he can be for shits and giggles. His giggles, of course. The things he constantly pull in comics calls for a guy with a enormous sense of twisted humor.

Seriously, i just don't get the morose and depressed Batman. It doesn't enter my mind. He can act serious in front of others, but every time people turn their back he should have the most eat-shitting smirk. Basically acting like an asshole for his own amusement.

>>92647119

I like a lot of this. He should never act irresponsible with it. But a certain sense that he's having fun fucking around would be pretty neat.

>>92647119
that is the most hilarious batman page Ive ever seen

>>92647014
I assumed the idea would be Jonathan saying "be the best man you can be" while Jor-El would be saying "be more than a man," and "be Superman" would be Clark's personal solution that wasn't quite either father's intention or philosophy but instead his own desicion.

>>92638444
You know, I've read so much of Superman, yet the one period I've never read a lot of is the Bronze Age. And it's weird because reading Bronze Age Batman was incredibly illuminating for me. It was that perfect spot between the more wacky 60's and the dark 80's, it's got that exact feeling a lot of people cite from the Animated Series of being a perfect balance of everything Batman is, which makes sense because that's where the show took most of its influence.

So I imagine that's what that era must be for Superman as well, and the fact that Maggin created Lexcorp is something I didn't know but that makes me want to read it even more.

>>92647119
I think you need a light touch with it. Bruce should enjoy being Batman, but in the background there should always be a twinge of regret that he can't help but be Batman.

>>92647410

Yeah I've been wishing DC would churn out a few Superman trades by writer like they did for Batman. Finally get some chunks of Maggin.

>>92638820
I agree. As a 90's baby, L&C with Superman TAS is probably the best of both worlds.

>Superman is what I do, but Clark is who I am.

>>92638918
>She's the NYC girl who's fucked her way around the city and found nobody who measures up.

>This is why Margot Kidder was perfect for the role

>>92647622

Even with Superman. The one thing Millar seems to love. He is still Millar.

.... but yeah rewatching in later years and Kidder comes across as a bit on the edge of sanity.

>>92647458

I think that being Batman for Bruce is having power, is being finally in control, and precisely because of that Bruce doesn't want to lose the bat suit, he doesn't want to go back to be that scared and ineffectual kid ever again. To the point where he start resenting the "Bruce". Being Batman should be an addiction because of the high it represents.

That's why i think Bruce should be more humorous when he's Batman. Not in front of others, because then he'd lose the mystique, but in general behind everyone's back. He should have fun acting scary and asshole-y. He should find pleasure getting a rise out of others.

>>92647684
I feel that Batman would really rather enjoy it if he didn't have to be Batman anymore, but that's just not the case; he's necessary for Gotham, it's not a joyride like it can be with Flash. He does want more power and control, but he more or less has to venture into Crime Alley every single time he dons the suit, to fight another version of it without ever being able to undo the original.

>>92647684
>>92647750
Being Batman is a chance to be in power and in control, which feels great, but in the back of his mind he should wish he wasn't so obsessed with being in power and control.

>>92647750

I just don't see it that way, man. The things Batman pull on the reg are things that only some troll would do. They're things that require a good dose of imagination and wit. I can't see a morose Bruce pulling half of the things he does.

>>92638392
Bullshit.

>>92647824
I don't see him as morose, usually; he's more often angry. Also very smart and creative.

>>92648142

See, but being angry is cathartic as fuck, specially when you get to act on it.

>>92638392
You know, one of these days, these niggas are just going to have to come right out and just admit that they've been jerkin it to Martian Manhunter all this time.

>>92638918
Mark Millar Licks Goats

>>92638852
yeah I'd say Morrison's more recent opinion on Clark Kent vs Kal-El with the truth being somewhere in the middle is the one that rings the most true

>>92639680
exactly, honestly that was one of the things The Batman did best, it actually showed off the Real Bruce Wayne better than most versions of Batman do

>>92639756
>KC was about regaining hope and getting past 90s excesses.
that has always rung hollow to me considering the ending involves 99% of the Metahuman population dying in a nuclear holocaust, not exactly hard to resolve the differences between them and regular humanity when there's only about a dozen of the former left(really makes Captain Marvel's sacrifice feel very pointless)

>>92649281
>that has always rung hollow to me considering the ending involves 99% of the Metahuman population dying in a nuclear holocaust, not exactly hard to resolve the differences between them and regular humanity when there's only about a dozen of the former left(really makes Captain Marvel's sacrifice feel very pointless)

The problem was that neither Ross nor Waid could agree on the resolution. Ross wanted all the superheroes dead except for Superman, Batman, and Wonder Woman. Waid felt this would be a bad idea because to him, the point is that Superman's biggest mistake was leaving after Magog killed the Joker, and if no one was still alive then every decision he'd made, from returning onwards was even bigger mistakes.

>>92649910
Waid is still really smelly.

>>92638392
>dichomoty

...dichotomy.

>>92638954
They're right when they say they basically Marvelized the character, though. Being a superhero first and a civilian second is a very DC way of doing things. The dichotomy was something very unique and they changed it to be like everything else.

>>92638965
Obviously fun is a huge component of Superman, but loneliness should also be there even though nobody can see it.

What I learn about this thread is that people want Superman to be a character that is constantly having FUN and COMFY ADVENTURES without never even having something remotely close to pathos.

I'm in the camp that neither Clark Kent nor Superman is the "real" personality. The person he is when he's alone with his parents, Lois, Jimmy or Batman is who he really is, but in those moments he isn't Superman the symbol or Clark Kent the mild-mannered reporter he pretends to be around Perry White ad Kat Grant.

>>92650414
Pathos is fine.
Being an alien trying to fit into the hu-man world is some gay-ass shitty-ass stupid shit.

>>92650491
When it's Superman, anyway.

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>>92638791
Like 100 hours late but let's read.

>>92650485

I'm a bit fascinated by how he manages to be himself around Jimmy even when Jimmy doesn't know. I think that's neat.

>>92638392
>Clark becomes who he really is when he becomes Superman.
Way to misunderstand the character. Superman isn't Batman, his civvie ego isn't his mask.

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Why don't the Guardians call Superman more often?

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This is what superheroes are all about to me.

Not just having these amazing powers and performing feats, but doing so in creative and interesting ways.

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Batman is a much better than character than Superman. I understand that Superman's main appeal is that he is a perfect man and his goody persona is heartwarming. But this can only go so far until it gets boring. Batman on the other hand is a self made hero that has many flaws to make him an intriguing complex character. This is because Bruce knows if he gives up being Batman he will find happiness but his vengeance is what drives him. Also I dont know why anyone would root for Superman to beat Batman in a fight. Superman beating Batman is something very realistic and predictable. Watching a god pummel a man dressed as a bat isnt something that would be interesting in a comic book setting. Rather the underdog and the one that relies on brains instead of brawn should be the victor. I am not a batfag, I just know that Batman is a superior character to Superman..

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>>92650750
Yes, we all saw your ebin bait already, you can stop now.

>>92638918
>"Superman doesn't love Lois. Clark loves Lois and Superman tries HARD to love Lois, but he can't because she's the wrong species. But he tries. Again, Maggin sums it up beautifully. It doesn't have to be complicated... Clark loves Lois, Lois loves Superman, Superman loves Clark [...] Perfect.

Funny thing about this is that Millar misremembered the Maggin quote.

>Superman loved Lois Lane.
>Lois Lane loved Clark Kent and ached in vain to believe he was Superman.
>Clark Kent loved Superman.
>No one understood this.

>>92639521
I wouldn't mind Birthright if it wasn't really fucking hippy. Remember that shit about Clark being vegan because he can see souls?

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>>92650804
And Superman being able to "see souls" makes absolutely no sense in any way.

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If it was like "I can see that we're all made of the same stuff, we're all the same!" that'd be one thing

>>92650774
Who said it was bait? U mad that Batman is better than supercuck that you can't come up with a reason to prove me wrong

>>92639661
>Kingdom Come was a bad comic that damaged more characters than Watchmen or Dark Knight Returns could ever do.
>damaged more characters than Dark Knight Returns
I'm sorry, but no. Hate KC if you wish, but DKR irreparably fucked up Batman.

>>92650873
Doubling down on denial won't help you hide that it's le ebin bait, it makes you too desperate looking.

>>92650893
How did DKR do that much damage?

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>>92650914
I imagine he means that it made Batman really popular as an antihero.

>>92647049
I have a hard time believing that Batman would honestly defend Joker after what he did in Injustice.

I mean honestly, that was a step up over Joker's more horrific acts.

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Never read this story, BTW.

>>92650965
The whole "Batman will always defend the Joker and never let him die" thing is the worst, laziest characterization of Batman.

If the people of America chose to execute the Joker, which they most certainly would after he literally killed an entire fucking city, Batman would totally be cool with it.

So many writers just totally miss the point of Batman's morality and push him as this insane man who wants to hump the Joker, when there are actual moral reasons he doesn't kill the Joker.

>>92650914
It basically completely disregarded Batman's previous characterization. Which is fine, given the elseworld thing. But that take on Batman stuck and went mainstream, until that's all Batman was.

>>92650554
thank you!
I'm here

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>Superhombre

>>92651030
I don't even think Batman would bitch if a "rookie" cop "accidentally" put a bullet in Joker at this point.

The insanity plea has fucking limitations.

>>92650414
Pretty much. Also comes back to the fact that if you start a thread with anything, no matter how rational or well-reasoned, the kneejerk response on 4chan is to immediately devise a contrarian rebuttal.

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>>92651162
Someone did just that at the beginning of Morrison's run and Batman didn't seem that upset by it.

Worst case scenario Batman would make sure that the cop gets tried for murder, in which case he would likely get off pretty easy.

>>92650414
that's literately the best though

>>92646591
Is the comic worth reading? Looks fun.

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And I imagine this is what anon was mostly talking about when asking for this story

>>92651253
I actually had a villain gang idea for Gotham. Bunch of bereaved families that have lost loved ones to Joker's bullshit. Their signature was taking a piece of caution tape and wearing it in a subtle way, with the leader wearing a mask made out of it.

They "help" Joker break out of Arkham only to kidnap him and try to kill him. Story would be about Batman trying to track down and stop this, and ultimately has to ask himself if he has a right to stop them.

People always say "BATMAN AND JOKER ARE SO SIMILAR", but that always rang hollow for me. I think a villain that had actual parallels would be far more interesting.

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Huh, I had always thought Clark being a newscaster was something Byrne came up with.

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DUDE WEED LMAO

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So is this Suicide Slum?

>>92650554

Huh. I was just thinking about buying this issue for my Green Lantern run. I love Superman, but too goddamned much to ever collect at length. GL is possible.

Turns out it's more prohibitively priced than I expected. Something like 80 bucks for a good quality copy.

>>92650750
Is it possible for one person to be this stupid, /co/? You'd be surprised.

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Notice that the tension here comes from investment in the character and situation, not in whether Superman will "win".

Superman could protect the cop and put them all in jail in a second but that wouldn't solve the problem.

>>92651436
Batman would stop them without wrestling with it and they'd justify it as "I'm not trying to save Joker, I'm trying to save you. You do this, you'll go to jail for murder."

He's already once saved Joker from a literal court-ordered death sentence because the crime he was convicted for was committed by somebody else and Bruce couldn't let THAT guy run loose on the streets, he had to catch him and prove that he did it.

The problem with this story is, it now proves that Gotham's state has capital punishment and Joker CAN be sentenced to death row despite his constant insanity pleas, so why the fuck has he never been before, for a crime he really did commit?

>>92651464
I think it happened around the time Kirby was on Jimmy Olsen but I can't remember for sure.

>>92651464

Was that Kirby with Morgan Edge who started that? I forget. Regardless, even in the 70's they thought Newspapers were going and they tried to reinvent his profession. One of those things that's never quite true that editors insist on every few decades.

Stupid attempt at it too. Take a guy who used the relative anonymity of a blank writer credit to help maintain that he's not the hero without a mask.

Jesus god damn comic editors are our greatest enemy.

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And then the other story is a reprint so I ain't posting that.

>>92651772
thanks Texanon
I liked it

>>92646139
It's Morrison, yeah. He decided "in the 853rd century Clark is still alive and lives in the sun and literally became a shining golden god" and then included it in All-Star too and now everyone thinks that's the only canon outcome for Clark even though Earth-2 and Kingdom Come Supes both had their hair going gray at a normal speed.

>>92652051
No, there's probably others before Morrison that did that. I know that the Superman/Wonder Woman Elseworlds that Chris Claremont was out about two years before Morrison's DC1M, and it had Superman starting his career in the 1930's and showed he remained ageless by the 1990's. I almost want to say there's others but I can't remember for sure.

Other incarnations of Superman do get to live long lives--Maggin had that Ghost of Superman-Future story which showed Superman was still alive at age 135--but even there his hair and beard was mostly white.

>>92651414
Oh yeah I almost forgot Clark was an actual news report once I wonder if they'll ever go that angle again

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the truth is that New 52 is the best conceptual Superman there is.

He is the most humane, he commit mistakes, he learn, he grow and he is made by his actions and choices, not a mirror of humanity, not a mirror of both his parents or lois. He is just a guy doing his best, and that is all he should've been.

When I read new 52 good issues of Superman I cant differenciate when its clark, superman or kal-el speaking, because he is all of them, this is good.

fuck the idol, the god, the drama, lets make Superman/Clark/Kal-El decides who he should be.