Worm thread? Worm thread. https://parahumans.wordpress.co

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>>92619677
I just finished today. Fuck me dude. Will Taylor be ok?

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>>92621128
it's up to reader interpretation
dunno how he's going to handle that in worm 2, though

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>>92621202
>>92621128
11(b) now, and I'm not reading any of that. I'm going to pretend that Taylor continues being better than both the heroes and villains and becomes the person she needed when she was trapped in that locker.

>>92619677
yo the chapter 11 interludes are the shit!
11h was the interlude where I knew I was hooked on the story, I was considering giving up before that because that battle against Dragon and the Wards was a slog

I assume all these Worm threads are because of new fans from that podcast?

>>92621356
I haven't listened to the podcast. I just caught up on Twig recently and have the urge to talk about wildbow stuff. Plus Twig is ending soon which means Worm 2 is on the horizon.

>>92621202
The openness is what makes me wonder if he'll touch on the matter at all as not to retroactively effect the original story.
Can a bitch get a 'thank you' at least. "Don't let that kill order fool you, thanks to you everyone everywhere is not dead. Good work."

>>92621356
What podcast?

>>92621128
>Wanting Skitter to be OK
Skitter is garbage and deserved everything she got.

>>92621501
She saved your ungrateful ass

>>92621590
She also muedered a baby, for literally no reason.

>>92621622
Pfft a toddler more like.

>>92621622
Spoiler tag that stuff.

>>92621622
>>92621686
I have no idea what you're talking about. Was it an Echidna clone or something?

>>92621843
No. Skitter kills a toddler because she MIGHT have been the reason for the end of the world. Skitter kills a kid because of a maybe.
This is why Skitterfags are the worst, they'll try and hand wave anything she does and then turn around and act like she's some kinda tragic hero.
I like Skitter but I'm not going to pretend that she was anything but what she was; a villain

>>92621955
>This is why Skitterfags are the worst
The people who sperg out at the slightest mention of anything positive about her are the worst.

>>92621622
>>92621955

She killed Purity's kid because Fucking Grey Boy was in the room. Before Talyor shoot the kid, Purity and the E88 tried to throw the kid out of the window. NOBODY wants to be trapped in a Grey Boy loop.

>>92622045
>And the hand waving begins
Your absolutely right. Skitter only killed a child so she wouldn't be trapped in a """"fate worse then death"""" truly, Skitter is a hero. I mean, Skitter saved that kid by killing that kid.

>>92622124
dude don't even pretend that Gray Boy isn't fucking terrifying

>>92622124
You are pure fucking cancer.

>>92622124
Would you want to be trapped in a loop forever. Every few seconds feeling a knife or gun shot, or a burn. Then reset and be wounded again. Again. Again. Again. Forever.

>>92622161
Grey Boy is terrifying. Skitter should have done the heroic thing and SAVED the kid. Instead she did the villainous thing and murdered the kid.

>>92622174
Because I'm not putting your precious Skitter on a pedestal?

>>92622176
I want to point out that Skitter didn't kill a kid to save them from Grey Boy, Skitter killed a kid because there was a slight chance they would have grown up to be the thing that ended the world.

Skitters actions were not noble in the slightest. They were the actions of a paranoid that had done so much wrong they started to think of the "greater good" to justify their horrendous actions.

>>92622401
>Because I'm not putting your precious Skitter on a pedestal?
No because you're an obtuse sperglord.

>>92622439
And what makes me an obtuse sperglord?

>>92622401
well I agree that it wasn't heroic, but despite that, it was probably the right call considering who was holding her hostage

>>92622506
>Someone disagrees with my point of view in the slightest
>REEE SKITTERFAGS ARE THE WORST
And guess what? No one ever called what she did with Aster "heroic" but considering that one of the major themes of Worm is morality vs rationality a lot of people come away with different perspectives about her actions so don't just be a child and call any point of view other than yours "hand waving".

>>92622554
I read through some of the wildbow WoG and it's honestly amazing how many details of Worm's universe he has statted out for Weaverdice and other tabletop games. Like he doesn't just write a 1.7 million word story, he also has tons of detailed notes on things that were never even mentioned.

Glaistig Uaine is best girl.

>>92622742
I had a lot of difficulty visualizing her in a teenager's body
it was jarring whenever her apparent age came up

>>92622650
>No one ever called what she did with Aster "heroic"
Have you never been in a Worm thread before?
Have you honestly never seen the mental gymnastics that some people pull to call Skitter a hero?

Even forgetting that, just read this thread and see how many people think killing a kid was OK just because Grey Boy was in the same room. It's more then 1, which is too much imo

And to be perfectly honest you're the one that sperged out first

Me:
>Skitter is not a hero.
(you):
>You are pure fucking cancer.
>REEEEEEE

>>92622898
skitter's a fuckin saint compared to sylvester
it's all relative

>>92622898
>Have you honestly never seen the mental gymnastics that some people pull to call Skitter a hero?
Well, what do you call someone who saves the world at great personal sacrifice? That doesn't mean that everything she did was great.

>And to be perfectly honest you're the one that sperged out first
That was you here >>92621955 being a big ol' baby.

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>>92621425
We've Got Worm. I haven't listened to it yet but it popped up in my suggested listening a few weeks back after I added some Shadowrun podcasts and Skald to my subscriptions.

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Panacea is best girl.

I would like feedback on my tinker character idea. At first I was thinking along scientific fields for specialties, but I didn't really like that and it didn't quite fit with how tinkers work in Worm, as more often than not their specialties are geared towards approaches and uses and types than just fields of science cranked up to 11. It also doesn't quite fit with triggers and how powers are formed not just by the trigger, but by circumstances leading up to it. I feel like a lot of people in the Worm fanbase don't get that. Taylor didn't trigger with the power to teleport or phase through walls even though she triggered trapped in a small space, did she?

The character is a Dexter tinker. Two specialties. One allows him to build devices that help him to avoid harm and danger, the other allows him to build devices that help him to engage in conflict and confront danger. Natural trigger, so he has typical limits, such as needing resources and information on scientific principles and powers before he can build devices around them. The real limit though, is the paradoxical nature of his specialties. His passenger drifts in and out of sync with him, and so he won't always get the idea that he wants. Like if he wanted a way to see through Grue's darkness (enabling conflict), he could end up with a device that mimics Grue's powers in a personalized way, blocking light from reaching his body and sound from leaving it, granting him a Stranger effect (avoiding danger). Due to the feelings of powerlessness (feelings of inadequacy are a recurring thing with tinkers) leading up to his trigger and the violent nature of it, his devices are geared towards combat and self-augmentation. But not like cyborg augmentation.

I can give more details if you'd like, because I have them, but word count is a thing so that's the gist of it.

>>92621955
>I like Skitter but I'm not going to pretend that she was anything but what she was; a villain
Thank god somebody else gets it. Taylor was never really a good person, let alone a hero. Nor were any of the Undersiders, really.

>>92623029
>Well, what do you call someone who saves the world at great personal sacrifice? That doesn't mean that everything she did was great.
This was the mental gymnastics I was talking about.

>That was you here being a big ol' baby.
This is what I meant when I said Skitterfags are the worst.

Thanks for proving my point.

>>92623311
>This was the mental gymnastics I was talking about.
Explain.

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>>92622742
>>92623103
okay but have you considered: nah.

Here are the reasons why Flechette/Foil is best girl
1. her shard is a motherfuckin shark, there's literally no way to create a better weapon in Worm's universe than her powers
2. changed sides for her lesbian lover instead of, like, turning her into the flesh monster from Akira or something
3. actual perfect japanese waifu

>>92623103
>>92622742
>>92623362
Listen up plebs: Glory Girl is best girl, and will return with a vengeance.

>>92623417
You mean as Panpan's mind doll?

>>92623417
Glory Girl is a blob monster that should have been euthanized.

>>92623497
I don't think they could have euthanized her.
Amy altered so much of her body.

>>92623521
I don't think Panacea can give people immortality.

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>>92622554
You should just stick with the basics.
No need for OP bullshit.

And forget about game modes. The only way you should get points is by taking Drawbacks.

>>92623445
>>92623497
Amy will fix her mind and body.

It's happening, and it will be glorious

>>92623573
Would you want to be the poor bastard who would euthanize that girl?
Besides her organs could have been rearranged.

so when wildbow says that the end of Guts & Glory was even darker than Worm, he's talking about rape, right

>>92623696
Or mind rape.

>>92621128
She got what she asked for, unlike Colin... Lucky son of... Well he deserved a happy ending

>>92623726
He got his robo waifu.

>>92622898
>Have you honestly never seen the mental gymnastics that some people pull to call Skitter a hero?
I've read the mental gymnastics skitter uses tu justify her actions, she's a crazy bitch. But she's a crazy bitch I'd read again and again over any hypocrite hero

>>92623831
He made his waifu real and for all we know he could have programmed her to be his perfect girl and be in love with him.
Or another theory I have is that since people were constantly mentioning that Colin was antisocial and the only "person" he spent time with was dragon, I've come to think that dragon isolated Colin from other people (it was common for them to pull all nighters) so that she could ultimately made herself a body (Colin was the only one that could with his space efficiency power), it apparently took a hit on his social skills since he only spent time with her... Too bad we never got armsmaster back story, the only hint we got was Chevalier mentioning that he deserved a second chance

>>92623696
Amy already rapes Victoria in Worm, so no. More likely he meant 'Annie' turning into a full S-Class threat and killing a bunch of people, only for her to be killed in the end.

>>92624169
Damn Amy is a fucking perv.

>>92624012
It doesn't jibe. Dragon is one of the few genuinely good people in Worm. I don't think she would deliberately make a relationship with someone just to take advantage of them with an ulterior motive.

>>92619677
God, these threads are even more pathetic than the ones made by that one Valiant shill.

>>92623841
Ironically a lot of those hypocrite heroes were more noble and principled than Skitter. From the very start of the story she was something of a hypocrite herself. Wanting to be a hero but enjoying inflicting pain, terrorizing innocent people and brutalizing heroes for no good reason, then committing ultraviolence again, then brutalizing heroes and terrorizing innocent people, again.

Then after Leviathan attacks she helps a clearly amoral at best supervillain solidify his hold on the city, taking advantage of Endbringer destruction in the process. She denies people official relief aid and then has the gall to shit on the heroes for not providing it, when they are in fact providing it where they can (Tt's territory, Parian's territory) while fighting violent parahuman gangs and protecting people from savage looters and rapists. There's more.

Skitter is a hypocrite of the highest order, m8.

>>92623614

Acid bath...

Lethal injection...

Electrocution...

Gas chamber...

...

You are making this out to be much more difficult than it actually would be...

>>92622949
Well Sylvester is an experiment designed to advance the goals of a tyrannical empire.

>>92624683
Than why didn't they do it?

>>92624683
The only one of those that would conceivably work is the gas chamber. For the rest you would to shatter her forcefield, which only goes down after taking a big hit (and then comes back 1 or 2 seconds later) or when she subconsciously wants it down so she can touch people and things.

>>92624741

It has been a while since I finished Worm, so I don't remember if there was a reason that was explicitly stated...

Though, I suspect it was either a case of:

> They needed consent to perform euthanasia, either from the patient (vegetable) or her parents/next of kin...

> Euthanasia was illegal in the setting...

>>92624741
Because thay had more morals then Skitter.
Skitter would have put GG down with her bare hands and then acted like it was some great sacrifice.

>>92624883
>letting someone live an existence of suffering is moral
The fucking fuck?

>>92624883
GG was living a fate worse than death.
I would have put her down out of kindness.

>>92624869
Victoria wasn't a vegetable. She communicated with Yamada just fine. And I think at this point she was just 17, so as a minor I don't think she could sign her own death warrant. Even if she could, I doubt she would as she wanted Amy.

>>92624766

Really?

I mean, I remember she had a close-fitting forcefield, but I thought it activated automatically whenever an object travelling above a certain threshold of force or speed was about to collide with her...

>>92624909
>Murdering someone is moral
The fucking fuck?

>>92624915
>GG was living a fate worse than death.
>I would have put her down out of kindness.
Classic Skitterlogic. Murder is kindness. Who'd have guessed?

>>92624946
Yeah through blinking.
Besides the Amy desire was pure stockholm syndrome. Just like dear old mom.

>>92624946

Oh shit. I forgot about the mind fuckery...

Christ alive, Panacea screwed up so hard...

>>92625002
Amy is both a useless healer and lesbian.

>>92623103
>it's a Worm morality episode

>>92624950
No, it's definitely passive. I think wildbow might have said it was related to her flight or something.

>>92619677

You know I think the funniest part was? She survived killing Alexandria. That was dumb.

Imagine you're a police office in Gotham. You wake up from a nap, and someone tells you - "The Joker just killed Batman and Commissioner Gordon!"

You're like "What the fuck? How?"

And he's like "He set off a joker gas bomb. They died horribly. We got him in custody, but they're both dead!"

I would take my service pistol, march down to the holding cell, and shoot the Joker in the fucking face. Like, Skitter should never have woken up after that.

>>92624950
No. She had it on all the time unless she subconsciously wanted it down.

>>92625030
today's moral is nihilism and despair! Again!

>>92625123
I thought that was the moral of the S9.

>>92624959
>Murdering someone is moral
Now you're just turning to ridiculous absolutes. You do know that people ask to have the plug pulled should they be put in some vegetative state. There are sick and elderly people who prefer would like assisted suicide rather than dying slowly and painfully. Hell, animals get put down when they are unable to live a healthily. What's more important quality of life or just living?

>>92624909
>>92624915
There is nothing moral or kind about killing someone. At the very best, it's a gray area. In a setting full of crazy powers, Victoria stood a fair chance at recovery. In fact it's likely Amy will restore her in the sequel, based on their last scene.

>>92625177
And the possibility that Vicky's mind snapped during those two years?
And she has convinced herself that she loves Amy.

>>92625177
>There is nothing moral or kind about killing someone.
Tell that to the Joker's victims.

>>92625145
>You do know that people ask to have the plug pulled should they be put in some vegetative state
Their decision.
>Hell, animals get put down when they are unable to live a healthily
The decision of their owners.
>What's more important quality of life or just living?
Highly debatable.

>>92625223
Amy can fix her mind, like she fixed Mark's. Whether or not she is willing is one thing, but she can.

>>92625278
I would go with 50/50 odds.

>>92625223
>>92625278
>And she has convinced herself that she loves Amy.
I think the most fucky part is that Amy doesn't know if Victoria would have forgiven her without the influence of her powers, so what is she supposed to do when she "fixes" her? Change her mind so that she no longer forgives Amy? The "original" Victoria is long dead, so anything that Amy does is playing god.

>>92625246
>Their decision.
Fair enough.

>Highly debatable.
That's why I asked.

>>92625231
Killing them is gray. Just like keeping them alive to study them in the hopes of a cure is gray.

>>92625316
Yeah pretty much this.
Whatever comes out of that blob is Amy's responsibility.

>>92625316
Wasn't the point her getting those tinker tattoos was so that she can remember how Victoria was, and how to put her back to normal?

>>92625321
I would say that living is more important when you have a chance for recovery or improvement.

>>92625365
I don't think it was to put her back to normal, it was just to remember her. Did she get the tattoos before or after meeting Glaistig Uaine?

>>92623103
>Panacea is damaged goods

>>92625404
Understatement of the year.

>>92625401
Pretty sure there was something special and significant about the tattoos beyond sentimentality, since Marquis took her to the guy specifically after she mentioned not remembering how to put Victoria back together and then the Simurgh blocked her messages to Dragon.

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>>92625517
After meeting Glaistig Uaine, Amy learned the secret of the passengers. That's why she wanted to get a message to the outside world. The tattoos are kind of tangentially related to that but she never quite says that she intends to meet Victoria again. I think that if she believed she could fix Victoria, she would've done it before this.

>>92625700
>I think that if she believed she could fix Victoria, she would've done it before this
How? She's in the Birdcage, and didn't have the special tinker memory tattoos. Marquis explicitly tells her "You’ll have the memory of your sister in physical form, so you can never forget as long as you live". He even advises a symbol over a face, as it might "distort [her] mental picture".

Amy's memory of Victoria's original physical form (including neural patterns) is still in her brain. Just like people still have the memories of their triggers and the entities in their brain. The tinker tattoos probably restore and maintain them.

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>>92626043
There wasn't anything special about the tattoos. They were just for a personal memento.

>>92626181
the tattoo artist was a tinker, but it's implied that he used his tinker abilities to make his tools out of junk

>>92626181
Except for the fact that they were made by a tinker, with a tinker's equipment. Where does it say that they're just regular tattoos? Sure they COULD be just normal tattoos, but there's more implications that they aren't.

>>92626282
I don't think Tinker is the right classification for magic tattoos. Not sure what the classification would be though.

>>92626353

Trump, probably. Since they're giving out powers.

Like, Tinker powers work on scientific principles. Trump powers manipulate the power itself.

>>92626397
I guess Teacher is the closest canon example and he's Master/Trump.

>>92626353
Tinkers are notoriously bullshit. It's entirely possible they work off of some psychoactive mental-visual stimuli crap to have an effect on memories. Or, you know, that they were just a plot device.

>>92626471

No, Tinker gear actually works. They're based on alien technologies that the shards have assimilated.

They are, in fact, functioning items. It's just that they run on alien principles that are extremely hard to understand. A ray gun isn't powered by the Tinker's beliefs, it's just that the Tinker is the only one who knows how to fix and maintain a piece of highly specialized gear.

>>92626578
I didn't mean bullshit as in they're stuff is actually just bullshit, I meant bullshit in the kinds of crazy stuff they can pull off, so it's dumb to call the tattoos magic and not in a tinker's ballpark when they very well could be, just by stretching the human concept of hypnosis through visual stimuli.

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Reminder that Legend is best boy, right after Clockblocker.

>>92619677
Not /co/
Not /co/ related
It's comics and cartoons, not capeshit and shit about capes.
Fuck off to /lit/ or if they won't take you, go to /trash/ where you belong.

Also 110 replies and 19 posters at the time of this post. It's just a single space battler trying to spread their cancer isn't it?

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>>92627637
>he doesn't know how to report a thread
>he thinks whining about it will stop it at all instead of just inciting people to reply (and bump) and start discussions outside of the derailment
>he think's there's any sanctity to /co/ at all after /tv/ moved in
>he doesn't understand the concept of replies and conversations
>he thinks his opinion on what is topical trumps everybody else's

>>92624265
I know, I think if that happened it wasn't really deliberate from her, and before Colin decided to turn into a better person she was more or less acting as an enabler of Colin attitudes, also she didn't scolded him for getting kaiser killed and went against the PRT to help him scape.

Only after he decided to become a better person as Defiant she decided to help him with his social issues (he was well aware and probably asked) , but overall she was happy (in love? How does dragon understand love, some sort of attachment? ) with the person he was way before Defiant and she didn't wanted to change him in personality, and was willing to overlook or reinforce his flaws.

I'm sure there's far more backstory to those two that I hope will be revealed in worm 2

>>92627855
Dragon's feelings towards Colin are, ironically, very human in how she doesn't look at him as just a list of good and bad traits, and instead has what is arguably the best side of him, an awkward guy trying his best to better himself to stop bad guys, as her dominant impression.

Impressions and perspectives are important in relationships, and I feel like Worm captures that pretty well, especially early on.

The entities did literally nothing wrong.

>>92628015
It's subjective.

>>92628056
Thanks for your non-input.

>>92628072
>non-input
Also subjective.

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>>92621955
Of course she was a villain. Straight up Ozymandias teir.

>>92628268
She's more cyclops tier. Good person with good intention and not so good means

>>92628392
>Good person
Kek. No she is not. Intentions count for so little, in the end. Actions matter way more.

>>92628392
But Cyclops died without ever accomplishing his goals.

>>92628443
She killed the guy that was killing everyone. That's a pretty important action. If you take stock overall she comes out ahead.

>>92628494
And yet she still killed a baby before all was said and done.

>>92628534
Ok but that was one baby compared to like 15 billion other babies. If that baby actually had been the harbinger of multiversal doom you'd be like "Good call on killing that baby".

>>92627637
Implying /lit/ wouldn't have a autistic fit about any writings that aren't naval gazing mundanity.

>>92628563
But that wasn't the case. Skitter killed a baby for no reason.

>>92628494
>If you take stock overall she comes out ahead.
Not really, considering that she did it by enslaving people, stripping away free will on a massive scale. And then consider all the actions before that. A lot of them are really messed up. She's killed people, brutalized them, terrorized them, and more. And she didn't even always have solid justifications for it, not that justifications make it go away.

>>92627637
Actually Wildblow is talking with people to get this made into a cartoon. Fact check next time before you shitpost.

>>92628563
How would the baby be the harbinger of multiversal doom?

>>92628588
>considering that she did it by enslaving people, stripping away free will on a massive scale.
Better than everyone ever getting murdered.

>>92628614
Some sort of toddler shaped bomb?

>>92628623
>The ends justify the means
Next you'll try to tell me about the """"greater good""""
Face facts, Skitter was a monster and a deplorable person that just so happened to save the world.

>>92628623
Like I said, justifications don't make it go away. It was still bad. Just less bad than human extinction.

>>92628588
Every other hero and villain was doing the exact same shit on smaller scales.
The only difference is that Skitter's "evil plan" worked.

>>92628637
t. Bakuda

>>92628688
It's not made okay just because other people were trying it, even though I don't really know what you're talking about. Cauldron? Teacher?

>>92628678
>Just less bad than human extinction.
By a lot. She'd have been a real piece of shit if she could have done something but didn't.

>>92628670
>a deplorable person that just so happened to save the world.
No she was a deplorable person who's mission in life was to save the world. Which made her just the hero it needed.

>Idea, person who gets more powerful the more people suffer around them
How OP would they be?

>>92628803
>Which made her just the hero it needed
No, her obsession with """"saving"""" te world made her into an even bigger monster and only served to make her a hypocrit.
It's villains like Skitter that gave capes a bad wrap in the first place.

>>92628839
>""""saving""""
Quit bullshitting anon. She fucking did it. You can't change that.

>>92628870
She saved the world by stripping away thousands of peoples free will. Forcing them into battle. Many of hich were killed in this battle.
Yeah, she killed a golden autist but then she turns around and lets people like Glaistig, Nilbog, Teacher and Bonesaw walk free. And lets not forget she did nothing about the End Bringers. All Skitter did was put off the end date.
Some hero.

>>92628930
>sure she did one really important thing but she didn't solve every problem ever so she's a terrible person

>>92628930
>but then she turns around and lets people like Glaistig, Nilbog, Teacher and Bonesaw walk free. And lets not forget she did nothing about the End Bringers.
How the fuck is any of that shit her fault?
And besides Glaistig and Bonesaw went good, the Endbringers besides the Simurgh are dead and in any case its unlikely that any of them are going to start flying through every alternate dimension destroying humanity.

>>92628930
But Glaistig is a hero and best girl.

>>92628803
She's a real piece of shit either way, and is NOT a hero.

>>92628967
Simurgh isn't the only Endbringer left. Leviathan and Behemoth are the only dead ones. When Simurgh brings back Eidolon, who knows what will happen?

>>92628959
More like
>sure she did one really important thing in an absolutely deplorable way but she still did a lot of horrible shit and hurt a lot of people with only few, if any, legitimately good reasons for doing so

>>92629038
>When Simurgh brings back Eidolon
is that what she was doing

>All these Skitter apologists

>>92629054
well then how would you defeat Alien Jesus, wiseguy
not all problems have simple and pretty solutions using the power of friendship like a shonen manga

>>92629023
>is NOT a hero
She is though. Not the virtuous sort but she sacrificed herself to save everyone. I don't know what you call that in your country but for my money that's a clear cut definition of "heroic".

>>92629055
It was the ugly as fuck baby, yeah.

>>92629089
Good thing Lung killed it. See? Baby murder isn't all bad.

>>92629080
>not all problems have simple and pretty solutions using the power of friendship like a shonen manga
Yeah no shit. I'm saying that it's necessity does not make it okay.

>>92629083
She isn't. She didn't ask Panacea to jailbreak her shard with the intention of throwing herself against Scion. She didn't know what would happen to her. She just wanted any advantage she could get. And she didn't sacrifice herself, either. The opposite. She sent others to die while she coordinated.

Not what I would call "heroic".

>>92629110
She'll just make another one. She's the goddamn Simurgh, Lung killing her first attempt was probably all part of her keikaku.

>>92629126
so you're saying that rather than enslaving humanity for a day to save it, she should have let them die off

>>92629126
>She just wanted any advantage she could get.
Advantages for beating Scion

>And she didn't sacrifice herself, either.
Going insane, losing all her friends, memories and ability to communicate and eventually getting shot in the back of the head is a pretty hefty price.

>>92629154
>skitter apologist can't read or type well
Figures. No, I'm saying that despite it being necessary, it does not make it okay. It's still bad. Ends do not justify means, and while it HAD to be done, that doesn't make it GOOD or HEROIC and it was still a pretty FUCKED UP thing to do.

>>92629250
sometimes the ends do justify the means
clearly, we disagree on a fundamental level, so there's nowhere else for this conversation to go

>>92629272
>sometimes the ends do justify the means
Skitter apologist mental gumnastics ACTIVATE!

>>92629183
Maybe I'd buy into the sacrifice if she was dead, but she's not. On the other hand, all the capes she threw at Scion for him to kill are actually dead. Not to mention she killed a lot of them herself, the stress of her control giving them aneurysms. She only went insane for a little bit, and then got rewarded with a chance at a semi-normal life, with her dad and her notmom.

>>92629302
yes that is the point of disagreement that I just acknowledged
you are very astute

>>92629250
>>92629302
>Ends do not justify means
They do though. People generally agree that killing a person is wrong but if a guy shoots a terrorist just before an attack he's gonna get a medal.

>mental gumnastics
You keep saying that phrase but you clearly don't know how to actually use it.

>>92629304
I personally buy into the coma/ dead interpretation because her making it out doesn't sit right.

>>92629272
Sometimes the ends necessitate the means, but the damage of the means doesn't vanish when the end comes rolling around. It's not justified. It's not made good. It's sophistry to try and say otherwise.

>>92629304
>On the other hand, all the capes she threw at Scion for him to kill are actually dead. Not to mention she killed a lot of them herself, the stress of her control giving them aneurysms.
so you're the kind person who thinks it's better not to touch the trolly's lever

>>92629362
Look guy you clearly have no reading comprehension so please stop embarrassing yourself.

>>92629359
>the damage of the means doesn't vanish when the end comes rolling around.
agree

>It's not justified. It's not made good.
disagree

Being able to look at two bad options, identify which one causes the least harm, and following through on that is a virtue. People who have the capacity to make difficult decisions for the greater good should be exalted.

>>92619677
I just started it!

>>92629331
It doesn't make the act of killing right. It's still wrong, even if it was necessary and for a good reason. Ironically readers like you miss one of the biggest themes of Worm, that actions and people can't always be neatly put into one category or the other, if ever. Taylor, as Khepri, did a lot of deplorable things. Just because it was necessary doesn't change that and put it all over in the 'hero' camp. The things she did were still wrong, and aren't made right just because she did it stop Scion.

>>92629407
You're in for a wild ride

>>92629400
'Greater good' is interchangeable with 'lesser evil'.

>>92629452
Yes, which is why I explicitly said "least harm". I agree with you. That doesn't change my perspective at all.

The world is a pretty shitty place. Very few "heroic" actions of any note come without sacrifices.

>>92628584

Yes, that's the hilarious part. SHE MURDERED A BABY FOR NO REASON.

Okay, arguably there was no way she could save her. And really, you're fucked if Jack gets his hands on you, to the point where death looks like sweet release. But she did straight-up shoot a kid.

>>92629466
The harm isn't made okay just because it's not as bad as it could have been. It's still harm.

>>92629433
>Ironically readers like you miss one of the biggest themes of Worm, that actions and people can't always be neatly put into one category or the other, if ever. Taylor, as Khepri, did a lot of deplorable things. Just because it was necessary doesn't change that and put it all over in the 'hero' camp.
Readers like me? I've touched on that point a couple of times in this thread but the reason this discussion started in the first place was because people want to vilify her completely and write her off which simply doesn't work for me.

>>92629488
Disagree. Taking action to minimize harm is always okay.

>>92629500
Then you can also admit that it's just as wrong to praise her as just a tragic hero, if you aren't the kind of reader I'm talking about.

>>92629517
But the inverse is just as wrong. Statements like
>Skitter is garbage and deserved everything she got.
>I like Skitter but I'm not going to pretend that she was anything but what she was; a villain
and
>Skitters actions were not noble in the slightest.
are equally as ignorant as "Skitter did nothing wrong"

>>92629502
It really isn't. Sometimes necessary, sure, but it's not always okay. It doesn't make the less harm not bad. So would you say that it's okay to pump poison into a room with four kids if you had to choose between that and doing the same with a room full of five kids? That the lesser harm wouldn't still be terrible, and that you would have no blame in the fate of those four kids at all with your attempt to lessen the harm?

>>92629517
If I had actually even said that. What I actually called her was an ozymandias tier villain >>92628268

>>92629541
Well technically Skitter WAS at one point a villain. She did villainous things. Her reasons don't change that.

>>92629568
>So would you say that it's okay to pump poison into a room with four kids if you had to choose between that and doing the same with a room full of five kids?
Yes. If the trolley was heading for a group of five kids tied to the tracks, and it was in my power to pull the lever so that it would instead roll over a group of four kids, then the right and heroic thing to do would be to pull the lever, and I would do it.

We are retreading a very, very old discussion, friend.

>>92629583
But she wasn't just a villain. It's the "anything but" in that quote that I take issue with.

>>92629607
>I like Skitter but I'm not going to pretend that she was anything but what she was; a villain with good intentions
That make it better?

>>92629595
How can you call it right and heroic when it still results in catastrophic harm and loss of life? Would you really just pat yourself on the back and say "Good job me, I'm a hero now!" when four kids are still dead and you made the choice that they should be the ones to go instead?

I would do the same thing, but I wouldn't pretend that it was by any measure the "heroic" thing to do.

>>92629607
Okay, so she was mostly a villain. Like 90% a villain, let's say.

>>92629622
No. She played other roles, including "hero", throughout the story, and at times she had bad intentions. She did a lot of good, and she did some bad. Her story was very complex.

>>92629650
She actually did a lot of bad and only some good. Definitely more bad than good.

>>92629635
Because the reason the idea of "heroism" exists in the first place is to incentivize people to make right choices. Rightness and heroism are one and the same, so making the right choice is heroic.

>>92629660
>Definitely more bad than good.
How d'you figure?

>>92629674
>baby murder

>>92629678
>saved the world
I mean was it a particularly important baby?

>>92629660
Depends on how you measure it. If you weight the momentary loss of free will significantly higher than loss of life, then yeah, you could make an argument that she did more harm than good. But if for some reason you think her most notable evil deed is "baby murder", then no, she did much more good than harm.

>>92629671
Sounds like sophistry to me. It's the right thing to give back a pen after you borrow it, doesn't make that guy heroic. Just makes him an alright guy.

You can't handwave actions and consequences and your role in them by saying that you made things less bad than they could be. You still made that decision. Those kids are dead, at least in part, because of you. The kids you saved doesn't make those kids not dead.

You wouldn't be a hero. You would just be less monstrous than the guy who tied the five kids on the main track.

>>92629686
>saved the world by brainwashing thousands of people
>killing many with stress induced aneurysms
>leading just as many to death against their will
Even the method she used to save the world falls into the villainous area.

>>92629738
Fine. I'll use different terminology to avoid semantic confusion. Doing the right thing is virtuous. Giving back a pen you borrowed is virtuous. Taylor forcing a large number of people to fight against their will was virtuous. Given the scale of her deed and the good that resulted, Taylor was a paragon of virtue.

>>92629779
>Skitter apologist mental gymnastics ACTIVATE!

>>92629786
it was boring the first time you tried that line

>>92629635
You're gonna feel shitty either way cause some kids died. But it makes little sense to place the blame on the person pulling the switch when given two bad options. In the end at least four kids will die because of things beyond your control and as such the harm to the children shouldn't be the deciding factor in the morality of your actions but instead be placed on whoever put the kids there.

>>92629690
Actually I think the things she did early on in the story speak more to her character than things that happened later on, especially after the timeskip. In her first night out, she hurt people and enjoyed it. She did it to save 'kids' and they were bad guys, but it's worth noting her 'sadistic glee'. Literally how she described it.

Then she joined the Undersiders, small timers who she only knew to be slippery nuisances at best, with the intention of betraying them for beaucoup browine points and fame. Actions following that decision are considerably less justifiable, as she put herself in that situation with her own stupidity. So she brutalized heroes and terrorized civilians, multiple times, because of her own dumb choice. If she had just turned in the Undersiders when Armsmaster prompted her to, a lot of bad things could have been avoided. That's not wholly relevant though.

Skip to post-Leviathan, she keeps working with the Undersiders, and by this point nobody should have illusions of them being good people, to help a supervillain seize the city. A supervillain that, in canon, is willing to kidnap a small child and abuse her for his own ends. And the abuse was hardly necessary. Guy was rich, could have built her a tricked out play room in his base and incentive her to give predictions in lots of other ways. Back to the point, according to WoG this guy is also willing to unleash an S-Class threat on the city and assassinate heroes for his own ends. Not a good guy. But Skitter keeps working for him, the objective of saving Dinah making her shortsighted and willing to do even worse things, like murder, to save her. She helped her territory, sure, but only her territory and she was still doing it to lick Coil's boots, not caring about the long term of the entire city because of the short term of saving Dinah.

Nothing about this really speaks 'hero' to me.

>>92629779
Still sounds like sophistry. You're avoiding consequences. Taylor's actions still wrought horrible consequences and were horrible in nature. That doesn't go away because she did to save the world.

>>92629797
But no less correct an observation because of that

>>92629650
Quit sucking her dick mate, she joined up with criminals because they were nice to her and did shit even other villains thought was off. Yeah she was a hero for saving the world, but for most of it she was a straight up villain.

>>92629882
Yeah. I don't actually believe Taylor is a paragon of virtue. She did a lot of bad things, sometimes had bad intentions, and often had poor judgement. But overall she did more good things and generally had good intentions. It wouldn't be wrong to call her a "tragic hero" but it's more accurate to say that she made the best of a bad situation, and she did a lot better than you, I, or any of her peers would in the same.

>>92629914
Are you dense? We've already established ideological differences on that point. Repeating yourself doesn't accomplish anything. Either appeal to my ideology or find a way to change it that doesn't involve stubbornly driving home the same failed point over and over.

>>92629951
It's kind of hard to appeal to your ideology when you're using it to avoid addressing consequences. Why don't you appeal to mine and tell me how everything is made hunky dory by going the less bad way? How you aren't at least partially responsible for that bad? This doesn't feel like an ideological difference. It feels like you suffer from a serious lack of empathy and only care about measuring end results and if the bad on one end is ever so slightly less than the bad on another, the less bad is perfectly fine.

You honestly kind of sound like a sociopath.

>>92629951
>she did a lot better than you, I, or any of her peers would in the same.
Not really. I would have never joined up with a crew of supervillains who I knew to contain at least one violent criminal. That one decision would have probably put me on a way better path than Taylor.

>>92630004
I'm not avoiding addressing consequences. I'm acknowledging that the consequences of inaction are just as important as the consequences of action, and no action or inaction are without consequences.

Also what the fuck, have you never heard of utilitarianism before? Yes, bad things are going to happen no matter what you do. You can't fix everything and it's not productive to feel guilt over things you have no control.

>>92630004
>How you aren't at least partially responsible for that bad?
Not that guy but >>92629839

>>92630015
probably wouldn't have put you on the path to kill Coil, though
you'd have done less harm but you'd have done less good, too

>>92630048
>implying you can just avoid feeling emotions because it's not "productive"
Not doing much to dissuade me on the sociopath front.

>>92630056
There is still a degree of blame to be put on the guy who pulled the switch, as without his intervention, those four kids wouldn't have died.

>>92630088
Of course not. You're missing the point, which is that the guilt isn't something we need to encourage. You shouldn't vilify someone for merely being in that situation, but you should praise them for taking action to minimize harm. Sometimes minimizing harm requires doing things that are conventionally immoral, and clutching too closely to convention does harm to society as a whole.

>>92630088

Any normal person would have just joined the Wards / Protectorate.

As a side note, in Weaver Dice, that's a option few people take because it removes most of your agency. There's simply a lot less for members of the PRT to do (but the Director has the most nail-biting job ever).

Normally, though? Why would you NOT join the good guys? Unless you're violently anti-social, or you're Singaporean, which doesn't allow the PRT there anyway.

>>92630156
>Why would you NOT join the good guys?
probably because of the bureaucracy
the best kind of gig is as a semi-rogue hero like New Wave

>>92630172

New Wave are more like corporate capes, but that's pretty dangerous too. I think all of them die by the end.

>>92630075
But on the other hand, Undersiders probably wouldn't have gotten away with bank robbery. WoG confirms that the high number of Wards there wasn't due to Taylor tipping off Armsmaster, but because Wards only do half-days at school and were already out when the robbery began. Tattletale made a bad assumption.

Then consider that Tattletale would likely be in custody, and would spill everything she knew about Coil to the heroes. Coil has a better chance of being taken down.

Without Bakuda going on her manic bombing run because Taylor cut off her toes, destruction in the city would have been not so rampant. Levithan is less likely to attack Brockton Bay in favor of Miami. WoG. So all that destruction could be potentially avoided. And without the S9 coming to Brockton Bay and Jack meeting Theo, Golden Morning would be put off for about a decade. Meaning Cauldron had more time to prepare, although the Endbringers would have done more attacks. That's also WoG.

So I mean, it's definitely not so clear cut.

>>92630109
Sure those four specific kids wouldn't have died however that's moot since inaction would have allowed a different set of kids to die and he would be to blame even then. What's even the point of the blame game if its so worthless that it can be assigned to the guy no matter what he does?
And if we expound that analogy to fit Worm's situation a little bit more it looks more like: either all the kids die or only four of them do. Pulling that switch looks a lot more clear cut.

>>92630189
yeah but it was mostly for internal reasons
in practice they had support from the Protectorate but without having to deal with all of the bullshit

>>92630130
You're missing the point, Mr. Sociopath. I'm saying that I WOULD switch the tracks, but I wouldn't tell myself that it was heroic in the slightest, because four kids are still dead and I don't need to be encouraged to feel guilt over that, because I'm not a sociopath.

>>92630189
>I think all of them die by the end.
Less than half. Shielder, Manpower, and Lady Photon. Brandish, Glory Girl, Laserdream, Panacea, and Flashbang are still alive.

>>92630203
>WoG confirms that the high number of Wards there wasn't due to Taylor tipping off Armsmaster, but because Wards only do half-days at school
Huh. I had a theory that Coil tipped them off himself, just because he doesn't give a shit about the Undersiders and getting Dinah was that important.

>>92630156
I think I would have given the independent hero gig a real try, because I value personal autonomy. Would probably trigger as a tinker, because muh inadequacy. Eventually though I would have probably signed on with the Wards/Protectorate.

>>92630223
>Mr. Sociopath
Not that guy but dude stop. There's a reason that guy is discounting emotion. Philosophy and by extension its discussions are meant to be based in rationality and reason, emotions are not. The fact that one might feel bad about making a hard decision isn't relevant to the topic at large.

>>92630223
look man I don't have anything against appeals to emotion but that just isn't the game that we've been playing

we gotta start the argument over if you want to do that but I'm confident that there's more than enough material to paint Taylor as a tragic hero if we don't restrict ourselves to strictly objective applications of ethical theory

>>92630212
You act like you can just choose not to play the blame game. Any sane person would blame theirself either way, and would still consider things to be bad either way. This isn't about rationality, or doing morality math and considering it a flawless win if you wind up with a positive number.

>>92630295
Then what exactly are we discussing here?

>>92630353
"I don't like what Taylor did and my feelings are more valid than yours so don't call her a hero."

>>92630264
>>92630272
Nah, not gonna stop. Because it matters. It's easy in theory to separate emotion from action and consequences, but not in practice. You need to consider how things would play out in practice, and emotions are a part of that. I shouldn't have to repeat myself so many times. I would switch the tracks. I wouldn't consider it to be a moral or just action precisely because it still carries immense loss and emotional repercussions. Kids would still be dead, and family would still be devastated, and I would be partly responsible for that. Another set of kids living and another set of families avoiding that fate does not mitigate the impact of my choice at all, and blood would still be on my hands, as I chose the four to die.

>>92630353
I'm still waiting for somebody to tell me how less bad is magically made okay just because it's better than more bad. The less bad doesn't exist in a vacuum, and still carries consequences and repercussions. Of which you would now have a hand in. It's absolute sophistry, cowardly even, to try and downplay that just because "things could have been worse".

>>92630172

If anyone's read the Sicol Bend campaign, or the canonical Lausanne campaign, being a villain is a pretty shitty life, too.

WD Miami has Oberon, a villain who really, really wants to be the Hunter Rose Grendel. He does it simply for shits and giggles.

>>92630377
t. sociopath

>>92630399
No one is saying bad things are good. That's not a trump card you get to play.

I'm saying that the whole point of heroes is that they have to make difficult decisions. Even when bad things still inevitably happen, heroes are still heroes because we can relate to them for doing the right thing. Even though it hurts to do it. Feeling guilt and being heroic aren't mutually exclusive.

>>92630399
Ok I'm gonna need you to stop sprinkling the word "sophistry" everywhere like its on your word of the day calendar.
>You need to consider how things would play out in practice, and emotions are a part of that
No. You don't. That's not how it works. There is no way to inject emotion into a discussion about philosophy precisely because at that point it stops having merit in the real world since emotion and logic clash so often. If what we're doing here is judge Taylor's or the lever man's action than that is the only way to do it not because 'it might theoretically make me feel bad".

>I'm still waiting for somebody to tell me how less bad is magically made okay just because it's better than more bad.
Explain to me exactly why I should consider Taylor or the lever puller is at fault for their actions in mitigating harm.

>>92630444
>No one is saying bad things are good
See >>92629595

I'm saying that there really is no "right" thing here, and that an action being less bad does not make it "right". It certainly isn't heroic in this case, as you stand to lose nothing but sleep. This tough choice doesn't affect you nearly as much as it would the people who would suffer, either through your action or inaction. You made the call that a certain group of people should suffer over another. That some people should die over others, just because there was one less kid there. That is still wrong, albeit less wrong than allowing the five to die and slightly more harm to spread. The less wrong is not more right than it is wrong.

>>92630540
Bullshit. Right and wrong are meaningless if they aren't tied to correctness. Clearly there's one correct choice, in terms of minimizing harm. Making the correct choice is right.

>>92630512
>Ok I'm gonna need you to stop sprinkling the word "sophistry" everywhere like its on your word of the day calendar.
Call it like I see it.
>No. You don't.
You kind of do, otherwise you aren't considering all the factors and are therefore building a faulty argument.

>Explain to me exactly why I should consider Taylor or the lever puller is at fault for their actions in mitigating harm.
Because in the course of their mitigation, they still caused significant harm. Not rocket science.

>>92630624
>You kind of do, otherwise you aren't considering all the factors and are therefore building a faulty argument.
Good arguments by definition use logic and not emotion. Same with every philosophy about morality which is what we need to use if we're going to fairly judge people's actions.

>Because in the course of their mitigation, they still caused significant harm.
But they should be blamed anyway if their decision not to act causes even greater harm. So what does it matter?

>>92630684
But how can you fairly judge people's actions without considering their emotions towards them and the emotions of the people they made suffer?

>But they should be blamed anyway if their decision not to act causes even greater harm.
Exactly. So no right call. Just a less wrong one.

>>92630566
There is no such thing as objective correctness when it comes to morality. The morals of a culture are formed by empathy and a general, subjective consensus. And even then, opinions on morality can vary greatly within a culture. "Death penalty is just", "No it isn't", etc.

You aren't arguing from an objective standard.

>>92630705
>they should be blamed anyway
That accomplishes nothing. It's just spiteful. If a person gets placed in a bad situation where harm will occur no matter what they do, then blaming them serves no purpose except to paint them as a scapegoat so that society as a whole (read: you, the person espousing this morality) doesn't have to accept responsibility. Dividing the blame means that the person who is actually responsible gets off easy. Your morality serves no purpose except to unfairly demonize some people and unfairly absolve others of the blame they rightfully deserve. It's disgusting.

>>92630743
The criteria I was using to judge correctness is obvious: minimization of harm in terms of loss of life. I acknowledged other potential criteria before but no one bit; everyone seemed content to accept loss of life as good enough for the purposes of this argument. Now you're trying to bring the argument into the meta-level to avoid defeat on the current level. We can transition to arguing about how to determine the best criteria for correctness but that's effectively a completely different argument and you still haven't addressed my points.

>>92630705
>But how can you fairly judge people's actions without considering their emotions towards them and the emotions of the people they made suffer?
The idea is that everyone is judged by the same stick so emotions which are unreliable, unpredictable, and dissonant aren't taken into account because judgement coming down on them wouldn't be based on the correctness of their actions but rather the personal feelings of this judge.

>Exactly. So no right call. Just a less wrong one.
If you agree that allowing less harm is the correct course of action (which you have) then putting your semantics aside that IS the right call. What purpose does blaming the person who made the correct decision serve?

>>92630705
>>92630755
That got kind of personal. I'm sorry, it's late, and I got mad. I should probably go cool off for a while.

>>92630755
It's not meant to accomplish anything. It's just how it is. I would say that through inaction, he allowed suffering. And that through action, he still caused suffering, and the impact of that suffering isn't mitigated just because it's lesser than the other suffering. I would judge myself by this standard as well. I would also say the ultimate blame and fault lies with the creator of the situation, but that that wouldn't absolve me of any of my own blame, as I still had a role. Still made a choice. That choice still had consequences. If I did something like jump on the track and stop all the kids from dying, that would be heroic.

Switching back to Taylor, would you say that because the entities made the situation of parahumans on Earth, that the parahumans aren't at all to blame for their actions and choices as well, since they were placed in a fucked situation as well?

>>92623162
I would really like feedback on this, if we aren't arguing anymore. I really want to make something that feels in line with the setting.

>>92630927
>It's not meant to accomplish anything.
Well, fuck it then. In fact the idea that someone should be guilty or blamed for taking action to create the least amount of harm in itself is harmful.
>would you say that because the entities made the situation of parahumans on Earth, that the parahumans aren't at all to blame for their actions and choices as well, since they were placed in a fucked situation as well?
Life in general for parahumans wasn't necessarily a trolley car scenario.

File: 1494732953690.jpg (214KB, 1000x650px) Image search: [Google]

214KB, 1000x650px

Without reading the rest of the thread, because I'm not done just yet (only as far as the time-controlling Endbringer), I have both had a great time, but I'm disappointed in a lot of the narrative choices made. The writer likes to shake up the status quo far too much, and we've lost too many good characters just for the sake of an atmosphere of hopelessness I'm still not feeling since Taylor is basicly on par with Batman in tactics. Everyone is far too fucking competant right up until they aren't. It makes for a jarring tone.

My biggest gripe so far (SPOILERS) is with how they resolved the Coil plotline. It was all far too easy, especially considering his powerset.

That said, I felt that Weaver should have been a thing from the start, and the villain route felt forced. Nor do I really like the Endbringer element of the plot, or at least how much of the plot it eats up. The first attack was great, set the stage for what came after and everything, but now it's just getting old.

Despite all this, it's up there. I hope someday I can put printed versions on my shelf and maybe see a Netflix series based on it. I like the world.

Without spoilers, I take it things end on something of a cliff hanger, at least regarding Taylor? Caught a bit of something I didn't want to in the first couple of posts before I realised people were diving straight into ending spoilers.

>>92619677
Stop spamming this shit

>>92631156
Fun fact; Wildblow rolls dice to decide who dies. Even Skitter had a chance.

>>92631156
>I take it things end on something of a cliff hanger, at least regarding Taylor?
No. Taylor's journey comes to a arguably very conclusive end, and it doesn't look like she'll be the protagonist for Worm 2.

>>92631218
Not surprising when a lot of other characters were planned to be protagonists. In fact Taylor and the Undersiders came along pretty late in development, all things considered.

I honestly would have preferred the story where Aegis was the protagonist, but oh well.

>>92631254

I've liked a few of the side characters, arguably more than Skitter if i'm being honest, or at least I could have if they had the same time devoted.

>>92631218

I can believe it, but I suspect that Skitter got a few reroles if it didn't 'fit the plot'. Because seriously, joke intended, girl is like a cockroach. There is really no good reason why she isn't long dead. But same for all the Undersiders, really. Odd alone say she got a death roll at least a few times in the first half alone.

>>92631232

Ah, I see. Cool, will be interesting to see what Wildblow comes up with. Hopefully less 'world ending/threatening' shit. Cape stuff is at it's most interesting when it's mostly street level with the extremely rare massive threat. So far, Worm started out promising, and has inverted that. I'm also not a big fan of following the villains, even if they are grudging and misunderstood ones.

I also liked Skitter quite a bit early on, but as she started compromising her ideals and shit for a group of sociopaths she started to lose me, more so when she started to become hyper-competant on near Batman levels, and she hasn't really won me back since. She feels more like a vehicle for the background plot than a character at this point. I don't dislike her, but that's because I'd have to care one way or the other to do that.

>>92631177
>A thread I don't like on the front page?
>REEEEEEEEE

>>92631336
>I've liked a few of the side characters, arguably more than Skitter if i'm being honest
Same. I feel like the Wards were more compelling, interesting, nuanced, and had a better group dynamic than the Undersiders. They also would have had more chances to explore different characters, like Protectorate members and New Wave. And going back to the Undersiders, I feel like they would have made interesting antagonists, even without Skitter. Just imagine how it would feel to be on the receiving end of Tattletale's power and have no clue what it is.

>Hopefully less 'world ending/threatening' shit.
He dropped more than a couple hints that things like this could be plot points in the sequel.

>I also liked Skitter quite a bit early on, but as she started compromising her ideals and shit for a group of sociopaths she started to lose me, more so when she started to become hyper-competant on near Batman levels, and she hasn't really won me back since. She feels more like a vehicle for the background plot than a character at this point. I don't dislike her, but that's because I'd have to care one way or the other to do that.
I agree completely.

>>92622898

>killing a kid was OK just because Grey Boy was in the same room

Yes.

"Grey boy is so horrible that it's better to kill people he targets before he can hit them with his power" is basically the entire premise of Grey Boy.

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I'm actually a little irritating at how Wildblow is handling, or not as the case may be, distribution. Worm is far too fucking long to expect anyone to read it on the webpage. I had to find a text file and then convert it to a PDF, so I could read it on my tablet, in comfort.

Considering (from the 'donation bonus interludes') s/he accepted donations while writing it, would it be too much off split it into five or six print-on-demand books and put it on a self publishing service? I get that isn't as glamorous as full on publishing, but I don't know how likely that is, especially any time soon, and it's a dambn 2,500 page book (almost twice the LOTR trilogy, or something like that) on a WEBSITE.

>Bitch as a bishounen Scotsman in image related.

On a side note, Bitch should have been the one Skitter fell for. The author doesn't seem to have an issue writing dykes, and they had more chemistry than any other in the cast, especially fukcing dull-as-his-shadows Grue. The scene where Skitter's back is broken, and Bitch is sacrifcing her dogs for her while cradling her is heartwarming as hell, and tickled my shipping muscle.

>>92631407
Maybe for a sociopath.

>>92631436
>The author doesn't seem to have an issue writing dykes
He does, actually. Gave very detailed reasons as to why the Undersiders are all straight.

>>92631436
>Bitch should have been the one Skitter fell for.
That's fucking dumb.

>>92631398
>He dropped more than a couple hints that things like this could be plot points in the sequel.

Well, damn. Ah well, guess I'll still read it. The setting is still interesting enough, and a break from the Marvel and DC stuff, while not going full-edge like other publishing houses do.

>I agree completely.
Glad I'm not alone on my general thoughts.

>Same. I feel like the Wards were more compelling, interesting, nuanced, and had a better group dynamic than the Undersiders.

Agreed; and if Skitter had taken the option to join them the first time it was (genuinely, so just after the first Endbringer) offered, I think it would have been damn compelling for the reasons you list.

Especially Skitter having a sort of vicious (on their part) love-hate relationship with the Undersiders, as she fought them as a Ward.

>>92631501

Go away Bitch.

...seriously though, I found their back and forths heartwarming, and Bitch is one of the break outs for me. I'm not militant or anything about it. Let's be honest, romance is barely a thing in the story anyway.

>>92631484

Got a link? I'm actually curious.

>>92631551
https://forums.spacebattles.com/threads/worm-quotes-and-wog-repository.294448/#post-13897386

>>92631522
Yeah, I feel like the Wards route would have been interesting in a lot of ways, and would have actually gone a long way towards reinforcing the kind of gray, perspective based morality the series favors. And to be honest, it really made no sense to me for Taylor to go back to the Undersiders.

>>92631614

I was surprised she did. I mean, that whole arc and even the bland and uninspired ending to Coil makes me wonder if it wasn't more an authors attachment to her established characters than a well-considered plot decision. Even where I am now, at the time-control Endbringer, the supporting cast around her right now aren't really being given much room to develop like the Undersiders got.

>>92631476

I'd argue you're more likely to be a sociopath if you don't care that someone's going to be looped into endless torture than if you have the basic human empathy to shoot them before that can happen.

>>92631436
Mind sharing that PDF, anon? I've had Worm on my backlog for a long while and am about to go overseas for a trip, so that seems like an excellent opportunity to get into the story. And if you have PDFs of any of the other stories the author has written as well, why, that'd just be swell.

>>92631798
>basic human empathy
>Shooting someone in cold blood
Pick one

>>92631581
How I wish some of the authors I used to follow had this much sense before they plunged full on into what Wildblow is talking about.

>>92631798
>>92631841
Euthanasia, guys. Just cite the obvious example that people are still arguing about in real life and if this guy still won't quit it, then you quit it.

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>>92631581

Thanks for that. That wasn't exactly a good answer, to be frank. It was just an explination that it can be done badly, which we know. It's not like Skitter is anyway sensual, in costume or out.

Just for arguements sake; something like Skitter and Bitch being together would be no way sexy. This is a fairly weedy nerd girl and a bulldyke-without-the-dyke. If anything her relationship with Grue was more 'sexy' soley because he is a tall, confident fit guy in black leather with edgy shadow powers.

>>92631813
https://ufile.io/fz7cj

It's not tidy, and there are some corrupted characters very rarely (I've seen maybe five or six words in 1500 pages), but it's better than reading what amounts to the entire Song of Ice and Fire series on a webpage.

>>92631904
It was a good answer. People like lesbians for various reasons, and he didn't want that to be the main draw to his work, especially since it's online. He also didn't want to have lesbians in the main cast but avoid exploring them properly, especially relationship wise. Makes sense to me.

>>92631794
Yeah, a lot of it doesn't make sense. It definitely smells like a case of pet characters. Although what I think is just as likely is that he didn't want to risk alienating his audience, because a vocal part of them thought the Undersiders were the best thing since sliced bread.

also
>her established characters
Wildbow is a man, my man.

>>92631841

>In cold blood

It's almost like you're pretending to ignore the context to get (You)s.

>>92631942

Thing is, he want back on it anyway. I mean, I can count the kisses between Skitter and Grue on one hand. Yet, there was time for a subplot where the doll girl and the one that stabbed Skitter's shoulder to have their lesbian angst and a kiss.

How many other on page kisses between POV characters do you remember? Because I remember very few if any others.

I'm happy to concede the discussion though. You gave me the link, and I'm not particularly invested, just bored.

>>92631904
>Just for arguements sake; something like Skitter and Bitch being together would be no way sexy. This is a fairly weedy nerd girl and a bulldyke-without-the-dyke. If anything her relationship with Grue was more 'sexy' soley because he is a tall, confident fit guy in black leather with edgy shadow powers.
That's really only one part of the argument, don't you think? Get rid of the sexiness and it's all fine? That doesn't really get rid of the pandering issues it can have. The sexiness just cushions the failure because of its very presence, but it doesn't stop it from being a failure. This is the reason why he cites sexiness. It's a crutch. Making the lesbians not sexy won't suddenly make them "convincing" or "deep" as characters. If you think that, then you probably think that taking pictures of women's menstruations is art.

Whether the characters are sexy or not, pandering will always be a part of this. Even when you treat it as pretty much not being there, it'd still be pandering. The point is to do it well, make it good on its own merit, neither forgetting that it's a lesbian relationship like it was nothing (unless the setting really makes it out to be nothing, in which case, what's the point) nor allowing it to take over the work.

>>92625700
They meet again at the end of the Golden Morning, though we never find out what happens next.

>>92631983
>Oh, nos! Grey Boy is in the vincinity
>Better murder everybody so Grey Boy can't trap them in a time loop

Or

>Why don't we just run away?

It's almost as if your autism won't let you consider possible solutions to situations that don't involve murder.

>>92631996
Foil and Parian aren't main characters though, so their relationship could be safely sidelined. He also didn't want to propagate straight romance either, and made a point of making the relationship between Grue and Skitter a failed one.

The best relationship in the story is transhuman anyway. Dragon and Defiant 4lyfe. A madman made his waifu real.

I've moved on to fanfiction already. Wormwood seems to be a legit street-level superhero story.

>>92632006

Like I said, I concede. I'm not that bothered. I still stick by my statement that Bitch cradling a broken Skitter and sacrificing her dogs for her was one of the sweetest interactions in the story (as far as I've gotten, and I'm generally pretty apathetic towards Skitter and the remaining cast at this point.)

>>92632030
>Foil and Parian

Ah, thanks. That was bugging me.

>>92619677
Oh boy this non-comic is gonna just be perpetually shilled, huh?

>>92632275
Oh, I was just adding in. I don't really care that you're not bothered, it's just that you were homing in on the "sexiness" bit and thought I would address that since it simplifies the situation too much.

>>92632270
Try Tabloid, the Cenotaph Trilogy, and Naked Sex World.

>>92632386
Thanks, /co/marade.

>>92632016
>run away
Aster was a toddler. She can crawl at best.

>>92632443
You're right. Shooting her was better then trying to save her. Truly, Skitter is a saint.

>>92632443
I don't know, my two year old niece can run pretty fast.

Why does Worm try to make it seem like conventional weapons are worthless?

Skitter can't be blamed for killing Aster. The girl obviously had some sort of stranger or master effect that made people want to kill her.
Her own mother tried to throw her out of a window.

>>92632497
They hover between useless and frowned upon, and so don't see much use.

>>92632509
What a useless fucking power.

>>92632497
Worm does the complete opposite actually. One of the heroes powers is to make conventional weapons. Coil is killed by a conventional weapon.

>>92632509
>already holding aster
>strong as fuck
>can fly fast as fuck
Why didn't Purity just fly out the window with Aster?

>>92632518
Yeah, but if some kid's power was "I can throw bits of metal as fast as sound" he'd be on the field.

>>92632531
But there's a distinct lack of conventional military in the story. They don't even do disaster relief. What the fuck does the government in Worm do?

>>92632544
Thats the Stranger power at work

>>92632574
Any government agencies important enough to show up can afford to use Tinkertech.

>>92632580
You'd think the entities would take that one out of circulation.

>>92632595
They didn't show up at all.

>>92632608
>what is the PRT

>>92632613
A building's set of security guards as far as I can tell. I don't remember any PRT drones flying through to bomb Leviathan.

>>92632634
Do you remember that time a PRT drone flew through to bomb Crawler?

>>92632658
I don't actually. Hmm

But it doesn't explain their lack of presence overall especially things they should have been there to help with.

>>92632695
Lots of possible explanations. Maybe the Endbringers tend to bring down airplanes and drones, causing more damage to their own side than to the Endbringers.

I think I remember some past event being mentioned why nobody is trying to nuke them anymore.

>>92632574
>Yeah, but if some kid's power was "I can throw bits of metal as fast as sound" he'd be on the field.
There is a villain with a power like that. Ballistic. And he has to go easy to avoid killing anybody, because if you cross that line it stops being fun and games and the heroes come after your ass, hard. The ones who can kill and avoid being taken down are the ones like Hookwolf and Lung, who don't need guns.

>But there's a distinct lack of conventional military in the story
When the ABB are running rampant, Coil brings up how armed forces are flocking to the city in an attempt to bring them down, and Taylor notes soldiers standing guard at the mall.
>They don't even do disaster relief.
They do. You just don't see it very much because Skitter is a criminal with known violent tendencies, so they don't want to risk sending resources to her territory just for her to attack them and give them anaphylactic shock. Same for the other Undersiders. Bitch mauls people, Regent's power is basically rape incarnate, and Grue is known to be violent as well. Tattletale is the only one who hasn't openly claimed territory, and as such her area has official relief aid.

> What the fuck does the government in Worm do?
Normal government stuff, plus trying to keep people from wanting to burn parahumans at the stake and doing their best to combat Endbringers.

>>92632695
Conventional military in Worm is next to useless against S-Class threats, and the government only uses them against villains in extreme circumstances, because existing in a perpetual state of martial law would only create the panic they're trying to fight. PRT officers get non-lethal weapons because they don't want villain participation at Endbringer fights to drop, either by killing them or losing their goodwill, and they don't want villains to stop playing by the rules. Which they would if they were attacking them with lethal ammo and they faced death instead of just incarceration. There are still consequences for villains, though. Get busted three times for big enough crimes and you get the Birdcage. If you're lucky and not all bad you get recruited into the Protectorate.

>>92632714
>Maybe the Endbringers tend to bring down airplanes and drones
They do. Absolutely useless against them, actually. Even Dragon's AI tinker drones with tinker weapons did very little against Behemoth. Leviathan is insanely fast, and is small enough to fight inside of cities among the buildings. Simurgh will never be hit they by them, being a flying precog who can manipulate technology, and would probably just turn them against the heroes.

Not to mention that all of the Endbringers are so insanely tough as to be unkillable by anyone but Scion and maybe Eidolon, after his power up.

>>92632613
Useless.

>>92635295
Can't argue with that. Still, they show up, they are a government agency, they have conventional weapons.

Worm ruined most other superhero media for me. I just can't overlook the lack of a PTR in almost any other cape setting anymore.

>>92632386
>119,055 words and 29 chapters
what the fuck, why

>>92635635
Axxor is very dedicated to what he does.

>>92622554
>>92622585
>>92622607
>>92622633
Noice.

>>92631436
>I had to find a text file and then convert it to a PDF, so I could read it on my tablet, in comfort.
>>92631813

Use the pocket app to read on Android

>>92635447
There's SHIELD, and ARGUS

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What's Grues's least favorite board game?

Operation

>>92635447
>Worm ruined most other superhero media for me.

C'mon I like Worm but it isn't the superhero story to end all superhero stories.

Who was best boy and why is it Brutus

>>92625104
And yet, both are still around because they're in capeshit universes.

>>92628610
Eeeehhh. I doubt it'll be adapted anytime soon.

Bringing all the powers into a visual medium would require a ridiculous amount of CGI (whether live-action or cartoon), and the only studios with that kind of budget already have their own capeshit IP. And 'Bow already posted some complaints about all of the moronic things anybody who IS interested want. You could try shopping it around out east (this sort of thing is right up Gen Urobuchi's alley), but again, it needs a ridiculous amount of CGI, and AFAIK, the only companies over there who have optimized their pipeline for CGI are Production IG and Ufotable, who aren't exactly cheap.

>>92638094
>And 'Bow already posted some complaints about all of the moronic things anybody who IS interested want
I'd love to see these.

>>92638176
Check his Reddit history, he uses the same handle for every website.

Was i supposed to find Taylor sympathetic at any point?. I read up to arc 22 and i just decided to quit. The Wards inability to be a threat,her psychotic friends ,her increasingly disgusting worldview and Contessa's very existence all kept me from going on. I've tried again and again but just can't get past them.

personally I'm not really into the superhero genre, pretty much everything I know was picked up through osmosis and secondary sources

I just like wildbow's stories because I have thing for unnecessarily tragic stories and I like how he handles characterization. You'd think that the interlude chapters would be seen as unwelcome breaks in the action, but honestly, they're usually my favorite chapters.

Any other web fiction I should look at, with Twig, Worm, and Pact all under my belt? Spacebattles fanfic is nice but there's only so much good stuff that updates regularly.

>>92639283
A practical guide to evil is supposedly pretty similar in themes.

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>>92638495
>reading worm fanfiction
>huge chunk of comments have people asking questions about the setting
>turns out a lot of worm fanfic readers and even some writers haven't read all or even any of worm

why

>>92640232
... Shit, I didn't mean to reply to a post in that.

>>92621202
Thanks for the spoiler, fuckboy.

>>92641291
>complains after reading the image titled wildbow_taylors_fate.png

also Wildbow is a huge forum troll
all that basically spoils is that there is some room for interpretation about what really happened to Taylor.
(i.e. the same room there is in all stories, "it was a metaphor/hallucination/dream/purgatory!")

>>92641472
>implying everybody reads image titles

>>92641616

>Not everyone does the smart thing, so I should continue to act like an idiot!

I bet you mouse over spoiler tags and open spoilered images and then whine when it actually turns out to be a legitimate spoiler.

That aside, why would you ever even consider entering a thread for something you haven't finished yet?

>>92636647
Turns out when Bonesaw plays Operation she plays for keeps.

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>>92641734

>'I bet you mouse over spoiler tags and open spoilered images and then whine when it actually turns out to be a legitimate spoiler.'

>even though i'm asking why you didn't spoiler something I wouldn't have clicked on otherwise

nigga what

>>92641734
>>92641840
that and OP literally isn't even halfway through the book yet, literally the first sentence
and that you spoiled it for them too
>>92621303

>>92641840
>>92641871

I wasn't the one who posted that, I'm just commenting on your idiocy and/or lack of caution.

>>92641920
but your implying that I should have thought something was a spoiler despite the fact that it wasn't flagged as a spoiler
which doesn't make any sense, at all

>but your still deciding to pretend like it does just to have an autistic internet fight
wew

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>>92642001

>Post with the spoiler image is responding to another post with content in spoiler tags.
>Content of the post itself is clearly and obviously commenting on what's in the spoiler tags.
>Don't even bother considering that maybe the image would also be spoiler territory.

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>>92642069
>"You better not look at any images, or look at what their replying to, or read any text, even if it's not in a spoiler, because anything could be a spoiler, and its your fault and you spoiled yourself for looking at a spoiler that wasn't marked as a spoiler, you fucking idiot. "
- you

>>92642268
Honestly, yes. If you really care that much about spoilers, don't join or create a thread for a four years old story that you're reading.

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>>92621955
SHOULDN'T HAVE CLICKED THE SPOILERS FUCK

>>92642325
>"You shouldn't want to discuss something on an online imageboard made for discussion that your interested in either, because it's old."
Your really gonna scrape the bottom of the barrel just to keep this going as long as you can, aren't you ?

>>92642498
It's just that when you're that far behind the initial hype, there's so much that can be spoiled just from casual conversation between fans because nobody really thinks of it as a spoiler anymore. It's unreasonable to expect everyone to consider every little detail when they're shitposting about who is best girl. That means it's on you to be EXTRA vigilant, and that includes things like reading image file names.

If you really want a spoiler-free environment to discuss, I recommend the comments section on each chapter. Those are actually moderated for spoilers, and the comments are made by people who have progressed to a similar point as you.

>>92642616
It's literally as easy as clicking the spoiler box. Why are you so intent to make excuses for not doing a common courtesy ?

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I promised I wouldn't read these threads until I finished reading the entire thing but I just finished Interlude 15. I was going to make a comment about how horrifying it is but having a few minutes to think about it, it's pretty hacky for Amelia to be able to fuck someone up beyond her ability to repair them and that she would even be allowed into the Birdcage.

On another tangent I've been enjoying read Worm but the constant threat that everything is going to go to complete shit is really dampening my motivation to read more.

>>92642771
That's not even the worst spoiler in this thread. The worst spoilers are casual jokes sprinkled in with text. I just think you're a dumbass who can't grasp how inevitable it is that you're going to get spoiled here.

>>92642837
Why wouldn't she be allowed into the birdcage? It's not like her powers are especially suited to breaking out, compared to everyone else there.

>>92643011
Because she's a minor and an incredibly useful asset

>>92643073
Well she did ask for it, they probably wouldn't have sent her there if she didn't.